B (5:06)

It's. It's funny because when you were talking about this, my brain immediately went to like, oh, she should make a template to just like, have a template response. And then you're like, no, we Figured this out. I'm like, yeah. Something that's coming up for me though, as you talk about this, Ash, you know, there's something here that, that's got this piqued my curiosity. So I have heard some people hypothesize this idea and I don't think that, I don't think that there's any one truth here. This is just sort of people's different takes on a, on a thing. But some people say like that rejection sensitivity is actually just CPTSD from like, you know, there's sort of two different theories of rejection sensitivity, right? One is that it's like your brain is, is sort of hyper vigilant against rejection and so it, it even sees it when it's not there, right? And I know you're not only talking about rejection sensitivity, but you are kind of talking about that the brain's ability to like make sort of miss misappropriate context and be like, oh, this is about this when it's really not. Which is what people say about rejection sensitive sensitivity, right? Like maybe someone's just feeling tired, you go, hey, how's it going? Then go, and, and then your brain goes, oh no, they hate me. Right? But the other theory that I've heard of rejection sensitivity is this idea that actually as people with neurodivergence, we've experienced more small micro, micro rejections and sort of like we've experienced more outgrew behavior being rejected, being, you know, given, given crap for our, our behaviors. And so what looks like rejection sensitivity is actually like complex post traumatic stress disorder hypervigilance against real rejections. Because we'd had so much of that, right. And the reason I'm bringing this up because it kind of reminds me of what you're saying around like trauma, right? Like this idea of, you know, that I. That trauma sort of creeps up and it, it informs the current context even when it's not relevant, right? So, you know, maybe this client has struggled in the past with something else that was similar and it led to some really bad outcome. You know, maybe she lost a job or someone got mad at her, who knows, right? And so like all that past trauma is like coming up and, and getting in the way of her being able to do what she needs to do. So my question for you as a coach is like, as, as coaches, where do we differentiate between like, what's coaching in this area and like when, when is it a coaching thing to look back on the past and to think about the story and think about the meaning that we've assigned things. And how do you differentiate between that and, like, a therapeutic context?

A (7:29)

Dusty, that's a really good question. And I'm going to speak first to the going into the past or going negative, which, by the way, when you're taught, like, straight coaching, all schools of coaching are built on similar skill sets, right? Whatever coaching school you learned from, however good or not good it was, we're all kind of operating from a similar set of concepts. This is what coaching looks like. This is what we're trying to do in a coaching session. This is what we're not trying to do. This is the tools that you use to do it. And one of the big things that I remember being taught is, or remember hearing along the way at some point is don't go negative and don't go in the past, because that's therapy.

B (8:10)

But.

A (8:11)

But ADHD brains are wired for context, and so sometimes we need to go into the past to understand the present context. An example from my own life is I've often been criticized for talking too loud in public places. I'm definitely one of those people that when I get excited, my volume goes up. And I don't always realize that. I don't always realize appropriateness in the setting that I'm in or not in. And a few years ago at a dinner, a friend leaned over and was trying to be kind. I was drawing attention from other tables, and she was genuinely trying to be kind. But, man, I just had an instant, like, shame, emotional response connected to all that criticism from the past, right? So sometimes we have to go into the past and not even. Not even to understand the emotion. Like, sometimes my clients have to go into the past. You know how we do that thing where to answer a question, sometimes we have to take a meandering path to figure out what the answer is for ourselves. Like, sometimes that meandering path takes my clients through their past. So to get to your question of how do we distinguish, like, trauma work and therapy from coaching? I have had several scenarios in my coaching practice where we have gone into the past to a place that was not safe. So we're in this place of curiosity. I ask a curious question, and my clients, all of a sudden we're back here, right? And so big part of this as a coach is paying attention to what's happening in the room. Because if there's a big emotional shift, you can tell, right? And so as a coach, this is a moment where I have an explicit conversation with my clients about distinguishing therapy from coaching. So what I tell my clients in this moment is therapy is about moving through something and coaching is about getting up above it and being curious about it. Right. Coach coaching is all about curiosity. And so if you haven't moved through this in a way that makes it safe for us to get up above it and be curious about it in the coaching context, then maybe we shouldn't go here. Right? So it's a, it's a conversation with my clients. And I have, by the way, had a few clients that paused or stopped coaching work at an intersection like this to go seek out trauma therapy. It was important to move through that thing in order for. We had hit sort of a, sort of a dead end in the coaching until this client can move through that thing. But I've also had scenarios where my clients have real big trauma in their past, but they've done enough other work that we can talk about that period of time. And not that it might not have some negative emotion in the moment, but we're able to stay curious. Right? We're able to stay curious about what from that past thing are you pulling forward into the now? And how is that, how is that impacting your now? What are the stories that you're telling yourself here and now? I've also read some really interesting papers, and the papers I read looked at ADHD youth who had had significant past trauma. So think children that have been in the foster system, et cetera. And what's really interesting is it's really hard for clinicians, especially with children, to distinguish between what is ADHD and what is trauma. Because those responses, those emotional responses, they look really similar. But in a coaching context, you can tell when they're very different. Right? You can tell when it's, this is a story I'm telling myself, this is context that I'm dragging forward and applying here. This is, this is one thing that was said to me one time that I have somehow made a rule for myself that I'm having an emotional response to every time I bump up against it, or this is something that I've otherwise accepted about myself. I'm a loudmouth and I don't care anymore. And if you tell me today to quiet down when I don't need to, that's your stuff and not my stuff. It doesn't. There's no actual trauma there. There's just an unlearning and an unmasking. Right? And in order to unlearn that behavior, that masking behavior, I first had to be aware that I was doing it in the first place, I would totally agree with you.

B (12:34)

Because the thing is, like, there's no way, I think, to effectively coach someone and to connect back to, like, what's powerful for them without traveling through, like, the realm of, like, emotion and history land. Right. And I think for me, like, often, you know, people at the beginning when I'm doing consultations, they'll sort of ask me the difference, and I'll. I'll sort of try to sit. You know, I differentiated a lot. Like, you as well, right? Like, the difference being if somebody's. If something's coming up for someone and it's, like, really hard, they probably need to spend time working with that on a therapist. But if they can, like, identify how the past connects to the present, it's just about, like, making that connection. Because we're looking at, what is it? Like you said, what's the story you're telling yourself about this? And what I. What I often tell clients is, like, personal growth is really slow, right? Like, we think it should be this thing where you, like, do something for a month, and then you're like, wow, I'm a totally different person. But instead, it kind of feels like walking. It feels like climbing a mountain where you start climbing one step by one step. You look back, you're only, like, a foot off the ground. You're, like, taking forever, but if you just keep going, one foot in front of the other, one of these days, you're going to turn around and you're going to be, like, halfway up that mountain or at the top of that mountain, you'll be. You're going to be like, oh, my God, look how far I've come. But it won't feel like you've come very far. It'll feel like you're just slogging away forever, right? So a lot of the times when I'm working with clients and they are changing and they're growing, it doesn't feel good at all and doesn't feel like anything at all. It just feels like the same old crap. So what ends up happening? Because to them, it feels like nothing is changing. They stay in that old story of who they were, right? To them, they haven't changed. So they're like, oh, I'm a person who's like, too loud. Or I'm a person who's messy, or I'm a person who's not good at making decisions, whatever, right? And I. I will tell clients that often, like, they will outgrow their stories faster than they'll update their stories, right? So they will have changed, but they don't actually realize that. So they keep telling the same old story. And it's my job as their coach to be like, that's actually not true. And to kind of like hold on to all the examples of all the ways that they did do different things. And often we have to do sort of this manual update, right? Like we look back at who they were, we go, that's. That story doesn't actually really fit you. It's just, it's the habitual story that you tell. You're used to saying that about yourself, so you still continue to say it. But let's recognize that that's actually not really an accurate depiction of where you're at now and that there's merit in like updating it. Right. And I think the same can be true of like the emotions that we have had and what they meant to us and what the contexts were and like recognizing that they don't have to mean the same thing now. Right? Like things can be scary, but that doesn't mean that there's going to be consequences or things can. You can like feel a knee jerk reaction of shame, but that doesn't mean you have anything to be ashamed about or that anyone's even trying to shame you.

A (15:12)

Dusty. I thought I just had because I, as you were talking I was thinking more about like what discreetly does this work look like when we're finding this intersection of powerful emotion and unpacking the stories behind that emotion. And what we're doing in coaching is we're doing two things. Number one, we're doing awareness because so often with ADHD we'll have the emotion and we don't really know, we don't even know what old crap we're dragging forward that's causing that emotional response. We're just unaware of it. That's that that contextual brain that's so disorganized but can call up stuff in context so quickly but without distinguishing. Does this apply in the here and now? So awareness is the first piece. What's the, what's the stuff going on here? And as a quick example of that, I had a client who at the time we were working together was trying to change industries because he had been fired from a job and told by his last boss that he sucked at this and should probably find a new line of work. And that's the place in which he came to coaching is I'm finding a new line of work because I'm not good at this. And over the course of our coaching work together. And this was. This was a thread we pulled on for a long time because we touched on it multiple times in the context of different coaching topics. More and more about that situation came out and it turned out his little company had been bought by a huge company. His expectations for performance went way up while his resources went way down. So yes, while there might have been ADHD in the mix there, and that certainly didn't help the situation. What happened in terms of why the fact that he got fired had less to do with him and more to do with how quickly things changed in a way that made it impossible for him to do his job well in that setting. But all he's carrying forward is, I'm bad at this, I'm bad at this, and I need to find a new line of work. So here we're building this awareness about, okay, there's more to this story than just what that was said. And my client is now seeing that story differently. He's seeing himself in that picture. He's seeing the nuance, he's seeing what was his stuff in that scenario, but also what wasn't. So that's the awareness piece. And the second piece is then accepting, right? Like to be neurodivergent in modern society. We're always going to struggle. We're always going to stand out in ways we don't want to. We are always going to be met with some amount of misunderstanding. We're always going to be misunderstood to some degree and getting to a place of acceptance where you can recognize something about yourself and either create change around it, be more aware of it, or just not let it be your stuff if someone else is criticizing you, especially for something that is completely innocent or harmless. I had a boss read me out for how I organized my email. She was very threatened by how highly organized I was. But my high level of organization was necessary for my ADHD brain to juggle all of the different balls I had in the air at this particular job. I couldn't do it any other way. She told me I wasn't allowed to organize my email like that anymore because when I was out to the office, she couldn't find what she needed in my inbox. Right. And at the time, that was very upsetting for me. And I was in one down about it. And I was very, very concerned about my ability to keep my job there, especially since I wasn't allowed to use supportive structures that worked for me that weren't harming anyone else. This wasn't structure that anyone else had to use, except for on the rare occasion that I was out of the office. And so that's a story I could have carried forward for a long time as I had. That's yet another boss I can add to the list of bosses that thought I was a bad worker, but in reality that that situation had nothing to do with me and everything to do with her and her being threatened by me. And so I don't have to carry that with me. And even this stuff that is adhd. We talked last week about remembering people when you meet them and how, when people get upset with me, if I will. If I've only met you once, like, if we haven't like traversed that place from like I met you once or I've been introduced to you to like I know you in some way, like we've, we've had a deep chat or we clicked in some way. If we haven't crossed that threshold, I'm going to have a really hard time remembering you. And I'm going to have an even harder time if you walk up to me and expect me to just know you by your name and your face. The next thing I will usually ask when somebody does that is, oh, where did we meet or what did we talk about? Because my brain needs context. So help me fill in that context and then the pieces will start to come back. But when people get offended by that, that's not my stuff. I genuinely don't get upset by that anymore. I, I have adhd. This is going to be a lifelong long problem for me and this is one that I just can't solve for. Right. There is no tool or system or structure that's going to change the way that my brain commits people to memory. And so I don't have to let that have an emotional impact on me anymore. So that's, that's really the meat of what we're doing when we're talking about working with emotion in ADHD coaching. It's about awareness. Where is the emotion coming from? What's real here, what's not, what, what is actually true about myself and then being able to stand in that acceptance now that you have a realistic picture of who you are instead of the one down picture of I'm the worst employee in the world or I'm so socially inappropriate all the time or whatever other, whatever other stories you might be telling yourself now you have a nuanced and clear picture of yourself, strength, strengths and challenges in the same picture. And who cares what anybody else thinks, right? That's. That's the. That's the opportunity to get to acceptance and change. Start to change the emotional response. Start to not have an emotional reaction there where you would have had one in the past.

B (21:17)

Exactly. I'm very well said.

A (21:19)

Thank you.

B (21:20)

I think that you're really. This is a good episode, I think for people who don't really understand what coaching can do like this. I think this really illuminates part of it because it's not just about like, oh, help me do the thing right on one level. It's like, help me do the thing on the next level. It's like, help me understand what's hard about the thing for greater self understanding. And like the third level is sort of like, help me change how I relate to myself and like, change what it feels like to be me, you know, and. And not. That's not to say that like we as the coaches are the ones that do that. It's the clients doing all the work because they make the choice to. To have that flexible mindset and explore that or not. But I think that people. It can be very intangible, like how we link that to this and like how it completely changes. Right. Your ability to be productive or get something done. Right. I think if people haven't had this experience, it's hard for them to understand those invisible connections because you just see that surface level of like, oh, I can't do task X. So like, teach me a skill I'm missing to do task X When actually like the root of. Yeah. Like you say task X is this emotional experience. Right. And redefining what it means or redefining how it impacts you. And we can't do that without first understanding and exploring it.

A (22:36)

I want to give one more example because in this client's case, it wasn't even connected to anything personal. Like nothing in her personal history or context. And this is a common thing for those of us with adhd, with shoulds, is we look around. You said this if you. Weeks ago on the podcast, Dusty. We looked around and see the kind of. The best of everyone else. And we don't see where other people struggle. So we think that we ought to be amazing at everything. So this client, we actually didn't work together that long because she got what she needed when we got here. This client is a single parent. She had a partner who they didn't live together, but they were talking about buying a place and moving in together. They were in that place in their relationship. She was also thinking about making some career moves, but her finances were just a mystery to her. And she was really just carried a lot of embarrassment and shame and embarrassment and shame in the realm of I'm not a proper adult, I'm not adulting correctly, and. Or everybody else can understand this. It doesn't make any sense to me. And the breakthrough moment we had around finances, I don't remember exactly what she said, but it reminded me of when my dad died because my dad was the household money manager for my parents. My dad is the one that taught me how to manage money. And he and I think about money really similarly. Like, if we needed to, needed to. If one of us needed to figure out a money thing, we'd talk to each other about it because we thought similarly and could help each other kind of work through that dilemma. When he died, my mom was, who's very intelligent, by the way, as a very smart woman, really was having such a hard time with daily money management. And it kind of made me realize that it was just a difference in, like, cognition and, like, types of intelligence. Right. Or modalities. Who knows? I didn't, like, I didn't coach my mom to find out, but I was recognizing that trying to teach her the way that I would do it or the way that my dad would do it wasn't going to help her. She kind of needed somebody to translate into a way she could understand in order for her to be able to make sense of money. And so I shared this with my client. And that right there was just such a breakthrough moment because for the. I think for the first time ever, my client considered that, hey, maybe not everyone just intuitively understands finances. Maybe understanding numbers and finances is like a particular skill set that people have. And maybe, maybe that even has nothing to do with my adhd. It's just not an area of strength for me. And that right there allowed her to, like, bust through guilt and shame and seek support because she had a number of supportive people that were totally willing to help her with finances and dig in and like, how help her understand and how do we do it? But she felt so stupid in her not knowing that she was afraid to ask. She was afraid to be embarrassed and look dumb. Look. Look like somebody who doesn't know how to be an adult. That actually ended up being the end of that coaching relationship because that. That's really more than anything what that client needed. Sort of getting a handle on understanding finances enough to understand what the opportunities were or weren't moving forward was really what that client needed. And we got there just by way of Doing what we call in coaching normalizing, right? Just normalizing that you are not the only one. And here this client is. And again, no, no personal context. Nobody ever like berated her about her finances. And she was always able to keep on them, up on them enough that it wasn't life ruining, but just this general sense of everyone else on planet earth knows how to do this. Every other adult is better at this than me. And therefore I'm so stuck in my own shame about not being good at this that I, I can't see a path forward here.

B (26:38)

That's it. Right? And it like, it's not even necessarily the case that someone had to shame her. Like my mom, you know, much as I loved her, she loved me very much. She rarely had a harsh word to say to me, but I would hear the way that she would talk about other women's bodies.

A (26:53)

Right.

B (26:53)

My mom was always very, very thin and she talked a lot about how she like, would work out as a, you know, a young woman. And she would make these comments about other women when we were out. And then if I ever said something to her like, oh, I lost some weight, or like, oh, I'm starting exercise, she'd be like, good for you. Like, she'd be so happy for me. She never called me fat. She never said, oh, Dusty, you need to. She was, she wasn't that mom that was like, oh, sweetie, are you sure you should have another, you know, piece of. She never said anything like that. Right. But that doesn't mean that I didn't really internalize fatphobia because it was just, you know, and so if you're, you know, maybe your client was never shamed, but if the people around her were good with money or the people around her made comments in passing about people who are bad with money or irresponsible with money or like that everyone, you know, we just pick these things up. We're very sensitive.

A (27:37)

Right, Exactly, Dusty. And that's kind of the point I was trying to make is sometimes this stuff can come from our own discreet context. Or more broadly, like in this case, this is coming from your family of origins context. It wasn't directed at you. It wasn't. You weren't ever shamed as an individual for your body. But still you're hearing these messages over and over again. And that, that ADHD one down thing where we start to build up masks, right? We start, we're looking at everyone else for how do I human correctly? How do I adult correctly? That's how we end up kind of Stacking up these. These rules for ourselves, these ways of being, these things we should do, these things we should know without even realizing it. And yes, sometimes those things come from very discreet events of our own. Like my client who is let go from that job, or some of my other clients who, trauma, actual trauma, did have a role to play in some story that they're carrying now. But sometimes they come a lot more subtly than that from our families of origin or even from the cultures we grew up in. I grew up in the middle of nowhere in a pretty culturally undiverse area. And so there are a lot of things that I picked up that I needed to unlearn. Just because I only had exposure to a pretty, like, monolithic population for the first 20 years of my life. I just. I didn't have any other context. I didn't know what I didn't know. So before we. Before we wrap up for today, Dusty, because we are nearly out of time, I just want to. I just want to pull an old gem from the Cam and I days, the concept of pause, disruption, pivot. Because when I'm working with clients on heavy emotion, that's the model that we're often using. Because you're not going to go from zero to, I have a completely different emotional response in this same situation overnight. Even with more awareness, even moving towards acceptance, it's going to take some amount of practice. So in this context, the opportunity with pause disrupt pivot is, are you able to pause after that emotional response and before the behavior and connect back to the awareness of where that previous behavior would come from? Because that's what makes it possible to then disrupt that behavior, pivot to a new experience. And I always tell clients that the pause is the hardest part. So don't kick yourself if your first noticings are in hindsight. Right? In hindsight, I see how that was emotionally driven behavior informed by this. And I want to have a different experience there. Because even in hindsight, you're building awareness about where that behavior is actually coming from, and you're creating the opportunity to get closer in time to when it happens to have that pause moment. So the opportunity here is just notice. Notice the situations where you have a strong emotional reaction and maybe get thrown right into that defensive crouch into one down into that catastrophizing spiral where it goes from one small thing to I'm the worst person in the world and see if you can't get a little curious and find out a little something new about what. What really did kick off that emotional, like what's in there that kicked off that emotional response? What, what context are you carrying around that you're applying to this moment now? And is it real or not real? What's the, what's the opportunity there? And something I often ask my clients is what's the different experience you want to have, particularly in a situation? So if, if the experience now is you tell me I'm too loud and I burst into tears, which has happened multiple times in my life, what's the experience I want to have? Well, more than anything, I want to be able to keep my calm and, and, and contextualize. Right? Contextualize. Are you policing my behavior when it doesn't need to be police and when my loudness is not a problem? Or are you being my friend and saying, hey, Ash, like, half the restaurant is staring at us? And so, like, I don't, I don't care. I love you. But, like, maybe in this context, you might want to be aware of your volume, because I know that you are often not aware of your volume. Right. Those are two different things. But the ability to stop and distinguish between the two and then react appropriately and react and show up in the way that I want to show up versus showing up based on the, on the shame, yucky emotion that if I'm in tears, right? There's. I've already had a reaction and there's it. The situation is kind of over from there. But if I'm able to pause and evaluate and be at choice about what happens next, that's where you have a different experience. So, listeners, I think we're going to dig into more of this type of stuff next week, but we are well out of time for today. So until next week. I'm Ash. And I'm Dusty, and this was the Translating ADHD podcast. Thanks for listening.