Trauma Rewired Episode: "Empathy and Narcissism"

Hosts: Jennifer Wallace & Elisabeth Kristof
Guest: Matt Bush
Release Date: December 2, 2024

Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the relationship between empathy and narcissism—two traits often seen as opposites, but which neuroscience reveals share underlying roots in brain structure and survival mechanisms. The hosts and guest expert Matt Bush explore how both empathy and narcissism emerge from the nervous system and how trauma and attachment shape these patterns. Listeners are guided through the science of social connection, survival, and regulation, with practical reflections on boundaries and healing.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Neuroscience of Empathy and Narcissism

• Main Structures Involved:

  • Anterior Insular Cortex: Central to both empathy and narcissism; linked with self-awareness and reading social cues ([06:38], Matt Bush).
  • Prefrontal Cortex: Involved in self-perception, decision-making, and emotional inhibition ([10:37], Matt).

• Normal vs. Excessive Empathy:

  • Being an “empath” is described as empathy at an unmanageable level, where the boundaries blur between one's own emotions and those of others ([04:58], Elisabeth).
  • “If it was a volume knob on the radio, it’s taken to a volume that’s almost so loud that you can no longer turn it down... It’s almost overwhelming our own sense of boundaries and our own sense of self at times.” – Matt Bush ([06:38])

• Roots of Narcissism:

  • Can stem from childhood neglect, insecure attachment, or even injury/illness affecting brain development.
  • Narcissism appears as an adaptive survival response to chaotic, unsafe, or unattuned environments ([08:33], Elisabeth; [43:32], Matt; [42:48], Jennifer).

• Reward Pathways:

  • Empathy is normally reinforced through the brain’s dopamine system as it promotes social survival ([13:33], Elisabeth).
  • In narcissism, the reward system becomes rewired: “Their brain has actually learned and conditioned itself to find rewarding behaviors that are either hurtful to others or not connected to the well being of others... That self-aggrandizing and self-centered focus becomes the primary driver of dopamine reward.” – Matt Bush ([12:19])

2. Empaths, Boundaries, and Burnout

• Empaths & Dysregulation:

  • Many empaths are operating from a place of nervous system dysregulation, relying on others for emotional regulation, which can feel overwhelming especially in social situations ([03:44], Elisabeth).
  • “My deepest states of empathy were also my deepest years of dysregulation.” – Jennifer ([04:30])

• Compassion Fatigue:

  • Therapists, coaches, and healers are prone to burnout when their empathy lacks boundaries and emotional regulation skills ([19:50], Jennifer).

• Codependency & Attachment Styles:

  • Empathic and narcissistic dynamics often play out as codependent relationships—one person over-attaching and disregarding their own needs, the other avoiding and seeking affirmation ([18:12], Elisabeth).

3. Manipulative Empathy & Emotional Perception in Narcissism

• People with narcissism often sense others’ emotions without feeling them, enabling manipulation.
• “I can sense others’ emotions, but I’m totally unable to share in the emotion with them. … This is like a recipe for manipulation.” – Matt Bush ([15:09])
• Narcissists may mimic empathy strategically or use sensed emotions for gaining control or power in relationships ([15:09], Matt).

4. Sensory Processing, Interoception, and Emotional Bypassing

• Interoception:

  • Defined as the ability to sense internal bodily states (hunger, fatigue, emotional signals). Deficits in interoception can lead to either overwhelming sensitivity or numbness ([33:32], Matt).
  • “Most people who find themselves being very high in empathy think that it’s a good thing until it becomes overwhelming and they can’t escape it.” – Matt ([39:50])

• Sensory Mismatch:

  • High sensory mismatch in the brain correlates with high empathy, as those unable to sense their own feelings look externally for cues ([23:02], Matt).

5. The Spectrum of Narcissism and Empathy as Survival Responses

• Both traits exist on a spectrum and are tied to survival strategies learned in response to threat and dysregulation ([43:32], Matt).
• Narcissism is reframed as a brain adaptation for safety, not simply a moral failing ([46:52], Matt).
• “Narcissism is not a conscious choice… it's the way their brain is actually wired and programmed itself through conditioning to feel safe.” – Matt ([46:52])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Empath Identity and Dysregulation
  • “It was also slightly jarring for me… my identity was my sensitivity and how I would relate into the world. … My deepest states of empathy were also my deepest years of dysregulation.” – Jennifer ([04:30])
• On Survival and Self-Perception
  • “From a survival perspective, the brain is always asking am I safe? Am I loved? And trying to create outputs that ensure that safety.” – Elisabeth ([08:33])
• On Emotional Manipulation
  • “If someone can always sense how other people are feeling, but never share the same feelings… this is a recipe for manipulation.” – Matt ([15:09])
• On the Weight of Empathy
  • “It can also just be a very heavy stress load on a nervous system… It can lead to a lot of dysregulation, both physically and emotionally.” – Elisabeth ([31:41])
• On Regulation & Boundaries
  • “When you’re around someone who has these narcissistic tendencies, it really is important that you be able to regulate your own nervous system and... have some really good boundaries to know that you’re not being taken advantage of or manipulated in that situation.” – Matt ([46:52])
• On Transformation
  • “All of what we talk about… these protective behaviors that are learned in childhood are maladaptive in adulthood. So we have to go back to the operating system… teach it another way of being…and show it the safety.” – Jennifer ([46:03])

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Topic/Quote | |-------------|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:00–02:43 | Introduction of episode theme and guests | | 03:44 | Empaths, nervous system dysregulation, & the reality of empathic overwhelm | | 06:38 | Neurobiology of empathy and narcissism (insular cortex & prefrontal cortex) | | 10:37 | Brain development, reward circuitry, and narcissistic adaptation | | 13:33 | How empathy is linked to survival and dopamine rewards in the brain | | 15:09 | Narcissists’ emotional perception & manipulation (“recipe for manipulation” story) | | 18:12 | Attachment styles, codependency, and the empathy-narcissism relational loop | | 19:50 | Emotional bypassing and compassion fatigue | | 23:02 | Sensory mismatch, emotional bypassing, and empathy as a survival strategy | | 31:41 | The cost of high empathy & interoceptive system deficits | | 33:32 | Interoceptive awareness, accuracy, and how deficits create overwhelm | | 43:32 | Narcissism as a nervous system-based spectrum, self-interest, and survival | | 46:52 | Key takeaways: boundaries, regulation, and reframing narcissism | | 48:13 | Final reflections on nervous system capacity, boundary-setting, and healing |

Practical Tools & Takeaways

• Boundary Setting: Learning to regulate your own nervous system is crucial for setting and maintaining healthy boundaries—especially around those with narcissistic traits ([46:52], Matt; [48:13], Elisabeth).
• Interoceptive Training: Cultivating interoceptive awareness and accuracy can reduce empathic overwhelm and promote healthier co-regulation ([36:30], Jennifer & Matt).
• Attachment Repair: Understanding attachment styles and their impact on relationships can clarify the empath-narcissist dynamic ([18:12], Elisabeth).
• Compassion Fatigue Prevention: Coaches, therapists, and helpers are encouraged to use somatic and nervous system tools to prevent burnout and maintain sustainability in their work ([19:50], Jennifer).

Conclusion

This episode reframes empathy and narcissism not as simple personality traits, but as survival strategies shaped by trauma, attachment, and neural wiring. The conversation encourages listeners to approach these dynamics with compassion, while equipping themselves with nervous system tools, interoceptive training, and strong boundaries for self-care and healthier relationships.

Further Resources

• rewiretrial.com: Free two-week nervous system training with Jennifer & Elisabeth
• neurosomaticintelligence.com: Information on the NSI Coaching Certification
• For direct quotes, revisit: [04:30] (Jennifer); [06:38] (Matt); [15:09] (Matt); [46:52] (Matt)