← Trauma Rewired
Trauma Rewired
Trauma Isn't Just In Your Head (It's In Your Cells)
01:04:07
Trauma is not a single moment. It is an ongoing dialogue between your brain, body, and environment. In this conversation, Dr. Mbemba Jabbi explains how neuroplasticity and affective neuroscience help us understand protective patterns like...
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- [00:00]
A
And it's interesting, too, that that same protective patterning finds people in the same situations where they would have experienced abuse in the home at an early age and then find themselves in the same situation years later as an adult, still trying to understand how to escape the very same environment because they've been patterned to learn the maladaptive place to be. An adaptive patterning, right?
- [00:22]
B
The high cost of that can lead, or usually lead to severe, prolonged mental, but also physical diseases.
- [00:38]
A
Trauma isn't just an event. It's a lifelong conversation between your brain, your body, and the environment. And here's the staggering truth. Studies show that people with a history of early childhood trauma, especially sexual trauma, can carry that imprint into their immune system and emotional health literally in their cells. But here's the good news. The brain is plastic and healing is possible. Today we're honored to sit down with Dr. Memba Jabi, a leading clinical neuroscientist at dell medical school. Dr. Jobi's groundbreaking work bridges neurogenetics, brain imaging, and effective neuroscience, helping us understand how genes, brain circuits and trauma shape our emotional lives and how we can heal. Welcome to Trauma Rewired, the podcast that teaches you about your nervous system, how trauma lives in the body, and what you can do to heal. I'm your co host, Jennifer Wall, Neurosomatic Psychedelic Preparation and Integration Guide, and I bring your nervous system into peak somatic experiences so that you can embody the medicine and live a life of truth, of healing, of growth and expansion. And I'm also one of the educators at the Neurosomatic Intelligence Coaching certification.
- [01:46]
C
And I'm your co host, Elizabeth Kristof, founder of Brainbase.com, an online community where we use applied neurology and somatics to create resilience, capacity and personal growth. And I'm also the founder of the Neurosomatic Intelligence Coaching Certification. If you are resonating with this podcast, make sure to subscribe so that you never miss an episode. And we are so excited today to be joined with you. Memba. Thank you so much for being here and there's so much that I want to learn about you and your work, but I would love it if you would just start out with a brief introduction to what brought you into this work or your own personal journey that's relevant to today's conversation.
- [02:28]
B
Thank you so much, Elizabeth and Jennifer. It's a pleasure to be here and thanks for the invitation to join you and have this conversation. You all are doing excellent and important work. Thank you so it's great to be part of the conversation. Thank you. Yeah. So you asked if I could say a bit. So, yeah. I'm a clinical neuroscientist by training and faculty member at the Dell Medical School, University of Texas at Austin, and leading the Neurogenetics Affective Neurogenetics laboratory. And my work together with colleagues both in the lab as well as within the research community at Delmed, UT and elsewhere are focused on trying to understand, in a nutshell, the biological basis of how we navigate the complex world around us and how we manage and deal with our emotions as we react to the world around us and how that has implications for both our physical and emotional health as well as well being. And in cases where the maintenance of health and well being goes awry and people are dealing with emotional diseases or disorders all the way to becoming suicidal or we try to map the biology of those so we can identify nitty gritty markers that would help us inform therapeutic but also prevention strategies.
- [04:14]
C
Wow, it's really fascinating. It is.
- [04:16]
A
It's incredible.
- [04:17]
C
Take a deep biological approach. Do you mind if I ask what made you so interested in this work?
- [04:24]
B
Yeah, so back in the day when I started doing, you know, in my bachelor studies in the Netherlands, so I was interested in going to medical school, but along that path I got, how do you call it, enrolled into a neuroanatomy lab as a research assistant, you know, helping cut brains, stain different regions of the human brain, but also fix brains and put them in jars, as you mentioned. And that's how I got sold. And then having the opportunity and privilege in learning the complex but fascinating life story, you know, behind those brains of the individual donors is how I got into this work. And obviously there is potential to contribute impact since affective disorders, mood disorders, and the trauma that leads to it affects a very large percentage, percentage of humans. So the work we do is really exciting and at the same time promises for us to contribute impact to society.
- [05:44]
A
It is very impactful and I think it's really fascinating and also an admirable contribution to society. And everything that you talk about with affective neuroscience, emotional diseases, it just feels so divine to be connected with you because that is so much of trauma rewired and so much of our lived experience here, what we've experienced between our ACE scores and the health outcomes that we have both experienced between autoimmune and cancer. And I think, you know, one of the biggest connections that we try to make here is the emotional piece of people's lives and Healths. And I think a lot of people are gonna really notice and begin to connect the dots that when we do understand our emotional patterns, when we understand how fear and how grief and how anger is showing up in our bodies, that it's. It's the reaction of the threat that is still happening inside of us. And that that disconnection, it isn't really about weakness or about lack or about insight, but it's just the result of a deeply ingrained neural pathway.
- [06:51]
B
Indeed.
- [06:52]
A
And that these patterns are, as we always say here, these patterns are protective outputs encoded through past experiences and repeated. Repeated events, repeated activations within the brain, the brain's emotional circuitry. So, Dr. Jobi, we would love to explore how the regions like the anterior cingulate, the anterior insula, the cingulate cortex and the amygdala co. Create our emotional stress and these emotional states. And what happens when those circuits become dysregulated through a prolonged period of time, through trauma, through complex trauma. Because we know that these are not isolated structures, but that they are all working together, part of a dynamic network, and, you know, part of a dynamic network that constantly predicts and interprets and regulates our internal states in response to the world around us. So can we talk a little bit about chronic hypervigilance, emotional shutdown and numbing out, not just the psychological?
- [07:56]
B
Yes. So, you know, when it comes to how these brain circuitries are wired together, one important note to share is that unlike the fixed brain that we see, you know, when we look at pictures, but also when we have the privilege, either in a jar or on a table, see a human brain or any other mammalian brain for that matter, fixed in formaldehyde. That's not how the living brain is like. So the living brain is more or less a well organized, nice thick mass of gel. So, meaning any part of the brain that a neurosurgeon wants to remove, they could literally choose either their finger or a spoon or anything. It's not like the muscle of my thigh or my arm that you have to really cut out. It's a gel mass that you can really scoop out very easily.
- [09:05]
C
So fascinating to think about and really makes you think about neuroplasticity too, and the malleability of the brain.
- [09:12]
B
Exactly. So. So with that in mind, when we look at the neural circuitry, we have to think about the areas that enable us to scan our environment, whatever that is. So when I say scan, it's not only visual scanning. It could also be a combination of several sensory input from visual to Auditor. So, for example, somebody who grew up in the jungle have learned very early on to really smell serpents that are dangerous. I mean, if you grew up in a city, you wouldn't know that. But the sense of smell is also very important to pick out danger. So the integrated sensory input that allows us as individuals, in this case humans, to sense that whatever we are exposed to at that time, it could be auditory. Right. Somebody really being nasty to me. Right. For example, or to you, that can change our state of, you know, homeostasis. So the balance of our body being in a, well, a well being state would change. So that's really what the emotional circuitry does. And whether the sensory input that's coming is visual, whether it is auditory, or whether it is tactile, which in some cases is too late because, you know, the source of the emotion is already very close, or whether it is a combination of all of these would determine what part of the brain the trigger will start for the individual in question that is experiencing that emotion. Meaning, have noticed that what, whatever is happening in the environment could be good too, right? Emotions can be good. It's good for their well being, happiness, you know, excited, or could be really, really bad to the level of being threatened for their lives. So it's a network that is tuned together and how it's wired towards, you know, picking up the environment, putting that together, and then really within a millisecond, processing all of that and say, hey, let's run, right? Or, you know, let's embrace this. We want more of this experience in terms of good emotions. So the network and how it's wired together and how the information that it's getting from different sensory modalities is what really determines the network.
- [11:59]
C
This is really, we're so aligned in the things that you're talking about and the things that we talk about on the podcast. Because our work is all about sensory inputs, right? We look at the nervous system in the brain in terms of input and then interpretation, and then you produce an output, and that output is your behavior, but also your internal state, the emotional experience. And so we're always looking at how do we begin to retrain our different sensory input systems like our eyes, our vestibular system, the balance system in the inner ear, body mapping system, our proprioceptive system to start to create new experiences, clearer, more accurate information coming into the brain and then working with the brain to regulate around that input so that it's interpreting it differently and creating a different response in the body. And so everything that you're saying just really aligns with that. And I think it's, I would love to explore a little bit like some of these areas like the insular cortex that is interpreting so much of that incoming stimulus, especially our interoceptive signal, and then creating that response. How do these things get patterned? Or what are the changes that you see in something like the insula or the hypersensitivity of the amygdala with chronic stress, with chronic trauma over time?
- [13:21]
B
So great question. And when it comes to the insula, or the anterior insula for this matter, it's a very interesting area of the brain because it's sort of like an epicenter, if I may use that word, that tunes out to the environment, all of these input capturing sensory, how do you call it, areas or organs. So from auditory to gustatory to olfactory, the insula is tuned out to all of these and through our evolutionary development to becoming the complex organisms that we are today. But also in other mammals, you see this, it's also one of two, maybe three regions together with the cingulate, especially the anterior and the lower part of the anterior, what we call subgenua, anterior cingulate. They are the only few regions of the brain that also are privileged from a hardwired anatomical point of view that are not only exteroceptively wired to these input channels of auditory, olfactory, so taste, you know, vision, how do you call it again, but they are also wired all the way to the gut, to the heart. So that those wiring systems. So when you are thinking of the brain, you want to think of the brain not only in terms of the anatomical hardware. There is an electric system that goes through that, like the electric signal and those through the electric signal, through the hard wiring. Anatomy also kind of codes the molecular pathways, you know, sort of like keeps the memory together in terms of how it's oiled and glued for future input. That would be more efficient. So getting back to your question, and not to sound technical, the insula is really a privileged region at the epicenter of really capturing most, if not all the sensory signals that are coming from outside our environment and then connect it to the body. And that way, as heavily connected as it is with most other regions of the brain can tell us or allow us to know not only what we are seeing in the environment and what the emotional meaning of that is, but also the actual life, real time consequences of what that have on our body. So what we call gut feeling, or I'm feeling squeezy now, or I'm sweating it out right now or I can't even stand on my feet because, you know, my knees are jelly or I have to run. It really allows us to not just pick it all in, but also act upon it because we know straight what we are feeling. So it regulates the feeling states. And obviously feeling states are deeply somatic, but also very cognitive. Right.
- [16:53]
A
I think you're really highlighting how important it is to be attuned to the sensations that are happening in your body so that you do understand how to read the signals and to hear the. Hear what's going on inside as like cues for your own safety. And I think it's really interesting too, how you were talking about smell and being in the jungle. And then I started thinking about how our senses are trained, but also how they're trained out to not be as useful. And then I started thinking about that underdevelopment and how that is responsive in complex trauma and people's not only physical environments of say, city versus jungle and everything in between, but also like the physical danger that people experience inside their homes growing up and how this is adaptive or maladaptive states of emotional stress. So can we talk a little bit about that where the kind of difference in how we develop from the physical environment into a much smaller micro environment?
- [17:58]
B
Yeah, great, great question. And you know, this is an area of very intense research from theorists going all the way to people who combine anatomy and physiology, but also molecular studies. So one terminology I would share is survival values. So we want to think of the environment, the context specific nature of each environment. Either we are living it or someone is sharing it with us. In this very electronically computationally wired world, you could have a loved one telling you they are going through something really wonderful that you share with them, but also somewhere in between or the polar opposite, something really awful that you unfortunately would have to report to the police. Right. So the survival value of our environment matters. And depending on what environment we grew up in, some contexts become meaningless because they just doesn't exist in them. So, for example, seafaring people that spend, let's say, 300 days a year, year in, year out, you know, their vestibular system is very developed because obviously, you know, the floors that they stand on are not as steady as ours, you know, and they may even at some point, experienced captains may even be able to smell dangerous storms before they are to do something about it. And when you are living in the jungle where you know the hazards of actual other living animals that are feeding on each other or just navigating within the same tight knit environment, sense of smell becomes quite important. And in cities where we all live, you know, you learn not to really trust people or see who is armed and behaving weird. So it's all about the environmental cues that allows us to scan what's going on around us and then put meaning to that as it relates to our survival. And within that context, what the brain really, all of these regions put together are allowing us is to, how do you call it? Very in fast pace, evaluate the survival value of whatever we are going through. In a nutshell.
- [20:46]
C
Yeah. That really makes me think about this principle of specific adaptation to impose demand. And that our nervous system is always adapting and responding and what we do, we get better at. And like Jen was saying too, that when there's not certain stimulus, we don't develop those skills or those sensory input skills become underdeveloped. And so you can really think about growing up in a chronic stress environment, how you would become very hypervigilant, not at a cognitive level, but at that sensory level. Like the sensory input that is coming in is very strong, very dialed up in these situations. But other things where you didn't have the need for it, like you were talking about, maybe that is emotional expression or connection or intimacy, maybe it wasn't safe to express your emotions. And so you never really learn the skills of reading those interoceptive signals. Maybe you feel very disconnected and dissociated from your body. And so you might have like a very well developed auditory sense scanning for cues or. But a very underdeveloped interoceptive system allowing you to connect to your own body. Is that accurate?
- [22:01]
B
Yeah. So really, you know, there is a, There are how we call general frameworks, right?
- [22:08]
C
Yeah.
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B
You know, how the brain works and how it allows us to navigate the environment. Those are usually general frameworks. Once you start to get different contexts, it becomes less general. And once you go way deep into context and you become, you know, how do you call it? Focus on, let's say, an individual's context. Then it gets complicated. So, for example, how does the brain really allow us to navigate and survive as long as possible in a high stress, for example, abusive environment. There is a terminology called land helplessness. Not everybody agrees with it. And even at the biological level, but you could also say that to that terminology or that school of thoughts, how do you call it again, defense. There are animal models, mouse models for land helplessness. So our environment isn't as interchangeable or as discardable as we would want it. Sometimes it Is really the set principled giving place that we find ourselves and can't easily escape it. For example, children just don't have the ability to change their environment from one family to the next, you know, with a blink of an eye. So there are are limitations as to how much we can really escape certain context within our environment. And if those contexts are really noxious and consistently noxious, and in this case, very aversive or even dangerous and abusive, what the brain does is not only escape, but moments or windows of abuse become manageable to the level that you survive it to the next level until the big escape moment comes. So instead of. I fully agree with you that maybe some sensory regulatory systems may be underdeveloped. That could be true. The other way to look at it, alternatively, and not to say the one is more true than the other, is that they are not necessarily underdeveloped, but they're adaptively suppressed.
- [24:44]
C
Yes.
- [24:46]
B
So instead of really a child that is really undergoing abuse from a supposedly protector that should be there to provide for them and bring them up, you know, and there is no system from a legal point or any other way to escape that, maybe just shutting down until that episode of abuse each time passes off and even kind of detach oneself from whatever is going on is also unfortunately, an adaptive mechanism.
- [25:25]
A
Yes, we talk about that a lot.
- [25:27]
C
The adaptive mechanism, and it's not underdeveloped, but it is developed specifically that way for your safety and survival.
- [25:35]
A
And it's interesting too that that same protective patterning finds people in the same situations where they would have experienced abuse in the home at an early and then find themselves in the same situation years later as an adult, still trying to understand how to escape the very same environment because they've been patterned to learn to be adapt the pattern, the maladaptive place to be an adaptive patterning.
- [26:00]
B
Right, right, very true. But it's not without a cost, right?
- [26:03]
A
Oh, totally.
- [26:04]
B
So that whole ability to adapt, again, you have to qualify that each listener in a maladaptive environment, One could argue that it's really not very adaptive in and of itself. But in this case it is. It's not without costs. So the high cost of that can lead, or usually lead to severe, prolonged mental, but also physical diseases, which I'm sure we're gonna come to later.
- [26:38]
C
Yeah.
- [26:38]
A
So what we do know is that these genetic pathways create inflammatory responses like circulatory cellular cycles and metabolic genes. And so can we talk about their impact on emotional regulation?
- [26:53]
B
Yes, sure. Just if I may take deliberately to connect a Little bit where we were and then get to genes. We want to look at genes as the biological building block. So each cell or the nucleus of each cell, it really doesn't matter what most cells contain the same DNA of that individual. And if you go back all the way to conception, whereby in this case sexual reproduction, where the egg cell of the mom in humans and the sperm cell of that come together, obviously that happened with all of us at some point becoming into existence. I didn't have hands, right, or just two cell. So the fascinating thing about genes is that they have the biological code in them, including how to make nails. But every other complex biological system or property that we have is coded in those genes and along the developmental pathway to build the body. So that's what genes do do they build the body from an egg cell and a sperm cell fused together and develop it during pregnancy into a whole human being. And as we grow, the stages of really expanding that body into a full blown is all genetic that's really coded in there. And maintaining that through middle life wear and tear and keep the body really built is all genetics until it cannot do but just accept and give into the breakdown what we call aging and eventually death. So in a nutshell, that's what genes do. They build the system. And there is a set of genes within that DNA of ours that also build the brain, which is the cardinal point of control of the body. So as complex as it sounds, it also simply means that complexity comes with complications. So those genes that really build the brain inevitably in all of us will have some coding issues. And if those coding issues are exponentially high, either through inherited or through other environmental, for example, a young mom inexperienced or just exposed to, to too many other substances like alcohol or even just a prescription drug. So it's not all inheritance. And then if those impact, say the genes that will really code to build the brain, and in this case that becomes awry, that can lead for example, to regions like the insula and the network that are hardwired to enable us to code our emotions. If the genetic pathway for that is not well developed or is underdeveloped or even malfunctional, then obviously we are biologically wired to not be adequately able to manage our emotions. So if that example.
- [30:29]
C
Wow.
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A
Yeah, it's so neat.
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C
It really is neat. Like what a beautiful, like timeline picture of dynamic developing. And it also, you know, as you were talking about, about the mother substance, but also just a mother under a chronic stress load, right? I mean, and having all of those hormonal impacts, the adrenaline, especially the cortisol, long term stress. And would that also lead to changes?
- [30:57]
B
Absolutely, absolutely. Because the developing fertile for mammals and obviously humans, the genes there are coded to really build the body. But that is also independent on getting all of those nutrients to build that body from two cells fused together from the mother. So the well being of the mother and the homeostatic balance of the mother's body have profound implications for how the genetics that builds the developing human in the womb, so to say, is going to succeed. Right. And if that mother is really undergoing extraneous, stressful or even consistent traumatic experiences, the hormones and the molecular system, or even the hardwired physical body of the mother, carrying that child, taxed or overtaxed, is going to affect not just the development of that child, but could cascade all the way down to their lifelong health status.
- [32:19]
C
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- [33:07]
A
And what does science say about the genetic risk of like where the genetic risk is to like mood disorders like in this development. And is, is there like a, is it like part destiny for a child to have a mood disorder based on this development or is it also still has something to do with environment and intervention?
- [33:29]
B
Yeah. So this is an area with intense studies going on and great minds contributing to this that folks like me are learning from on a daily basis, but also members of my lab and collaborative. But to get back to your question, I think one could weigh it as not necessarily fully predetermined destiny. Right. So when you get back to the genetic code, obviously there is no doubt we will inherit that from both parents who inherited all the way. So there is a certain level of genetic load that already is known to lead to very guaranteed and successful development of the nervous system. So if something within that genetic code Is going either north or south, meaning not being very good or south being very bad. We know that's gonna include vulnerability in the brain development of that individual. But we wanna look at at it in terms of the inverted U curve. So too much of a genetic code that guarantees good brain development, too much dosage of it can also lead to, you know, a maladaptive like heavily expanded area of the brain that's too developed and would kind of hijack the function of other areas and keep the balance off, you know, and you can think of that in specific diagnosis that we will come to. But you can also have, you know, genes that are really putting the development of that brain at a disadvantage. And then some parts of the brain or collectively would be underdeveloped. However, that's the genetic part. It doesn't express itself independent of the environment. Right. So even with some degree of genetic vulnerability, if the environment is nurturing to the right required level, it kind of captures and compensates for that biological risk. So the genes themselves, they have to be, you know, the risk that genes bring for us in this case, how we regulate our emotions or how vulnerable we become emotionally and be guaranteed to develop a mood disorder will have to be really at the very extreme that a nurturing environment wouldn't kind of compensate that. So we want to think about, you know, genetic health or the vulnerability of how genes allow our brains to develop within the context of environment. And you can also have well balanced genetically mediated brain development. But if the environment is toxic to the level that passes the threshold of any normal functioning human being to cope, there would still be risk to develop disease, mood disorders. So it's really a continuum if I.
- [37:05]
C
Yeah, that balance between. And then also too, you think about somebody who maybe has both of those things, they have the genetic component because of the parental stress or habits or addictions. And then they also grow up in an environment that is toxic, high stress environment. And I still always want to circle back to this idea that our brains are super neuroplastic. Our nervous system is continuing to adapt. And I do believe that as we grow, we can work with our nervous system, learn skills for regulation, develop safe relationships for co regulation, be out in nature, experience life. And that that also can have an impact on our nervous system so that we can re pattern to a certain extent and that it's not fixed, that we will go down this disease pathway.
- [37:57]
B
Yeah, which is true. And you name, name it any kind of complex behavioral disorder or complex behavioral challenges that we can figure out either one compound, one molecule or a combination of complex pharmacotherapies. There is ample evidence to show that independent of any pharmacotherapy for behavioral disorders, that psychotherapy, which is really basically trying to better understand the environment and figure a way out to navigate that in a more healthy, balanced way works just as fine and in some cases works even better. So how we really kind of take control, but also within the context of learn as we go, be more aware and create those memories that would allow us to navigate, but even predict, you know, future outcome is all part of the continuum we call neuroplasticity.
- [39:13]
A
Can we also bring early childhood sexual trauma into this conversation? Because. Can we bring that into the conversation? Because we say it on, we've talked about it a little bit on trauma, rewired that like there's, there's, it's, it's another level of taking the abuse a little bit further. And so I'd like to differentiate that in this conversation because when we met over. Zoom to meet, you have this, you have proof in the brain that this is. Yeah, yeah, worse, extra like, I don't.
- [39:47]
C
Know what the word is, some kind of different load. Because I remember we talked about different biomarkers showing up as one way to evaluate different types of trauma and looking at the C reactive proteins, these inflammatory markers that are used for generally identifying more disease state in the body, and that there is a difference in those with early childhood sexual abuse from other types of traumatic experiences.
- [40:15]
B
Right. So there has been quite a remarkable number of studies in this area where when it relates to trauma and human trauma experience and how the brain helps navigate that, but also post trauma, what are the biology or the consequences at the health level? So together with colleagues, what we did was take an approach that in addition to all of these fascinating findings that others ourselves are making and we are all learning about the brain to take a more, how you call it again, peripheral approach. So obviously, if you remember in our conversation, the regions that we study, which are the insular and cingulate, we touched upon the fact that they are literally wired with the wires going all the way to the adrenal glands, to the gut, to the heart. So if you take, let's say a consistent red dye or, or viral coding colors and put them in the heart at the microscopic level, you can see that they travel through those naps going all the way to the insula. You can literally map in coral.
- [41:38]
C
You're really talking our language here.
- [41:40]
B
Yeah, yeah. So there is really hardwired evidence, you know, and folks have looked at that so what we did was to see anyway, maybe not all trauma, maybe not all abuse are equal at the biological level. And so how do we figure out which one is probably more deeply rooted or lead to prolonged biological toxicity that we know have health consequences? Not in a positive way at all. And we looked at C reactive protein. Protein, it's more or less a crude measure of inflammation in the body. So people who have infection, acute infection, their C reactive protein will be higher. But also people who have metabolic diseases or any kind of disease that you can think of that really affects the balance, the homeostasis of the body, in this case the molecular balance. Like if you wake up early morning, you know, independent of what age you are at, and you are like, oh, I do feel very sick, I do feel very bad. If you take the C reactive protein, it's gonna be high, you know, unless you are making it up. Right, right. So we did that and then took the C reactive protein of patients undergoing mental health treatment in a facility. And what we found when we asked specific questions of the origin of childhood trauma, is that C reactive protein, independent of what kind of trauma people have had, is higher. For those who experience childhood trauma, and obviously childhood sexual trauma, any kind of childhood trauma is a violation of a very vulnerable stage in developmental individuals, you know, sanctity. Right. Because they need to be protected, they can take care of themselves. So any kind of abuse of a child or of anybody in this case. But the assumption is that adults can take care of themselves in a much more profound level than children. Right. And within those trauma differences. So trauma, experience of past trauma, when people are children, later life from 24, all the way to people in their 30s, mid 30s have higher C reactive protein, meaning somehow their bodies couldn't figure out to find that molecular homeostatic balance that we call low levels of inflammation or crude measures of inflammation. And then we were taking this hypothesis to say, given the profound nature and the physical violation nature of sexual abuse, there is reason to believe that it is even going to pump that C reactive protein level higher, not only in the context of trauma, but when compared to individuals who've also experienced trauma. Could be physical trauma during being beaten up consistently, could be, how do you call it, emotional trauma or psychological trauma or neglect. So we compared them and found out that yes, trauma is a very reliable and consistent predictor of extreme forms of C reactive protein measures, in this case inflammation in blood in individuals later in life, which is very tied into heart. How their psychological well being or the lack of it is also expressed because obviously they are all admitted and undergoing treatment. But those who experience sexual trauma, their C reactive protein was also a notch higher and mainly also driven by the fact that they are women. Because in our society, sexual trauma, unfortunately, is also more experienced by women than men. Men. So there is this, you know, very strong, if I may call it, molecular measures of body, you know, sanctity violation that were, you know, reflected in sexual trauma victims when they were children compared to other abuse forms.
- [46:22]
A
It feels somehow validating in a way. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, not in a positive way, but like to. To have had cancer and to have autoimmune and to have the experience in the body of a disease state and then to understand, well, this is. This is biological toxicity in a way, right? This C type protein. And so seeing, hearing the science of this protein linking to inflammation and to emotional dysregulation and how even emotional neglect is impacting this protein. It's, It's. Yeah, something about it feels good in a way.
- [47:01]
C
Powerful statement to say there is a strong biological marker associated with body sanctity violations like that. It really feels. I don't know, I like, like you.
- [47:15]
A
Said, like validating this really makes sense, right? We knew it. We knew it made sense, but now it really. There's like a different puzzle piece that has come into my awareness now in this conversation today. And yeah, it really. It's meaningful. I think it will be meaningful.
- [47:33]
B
Yeah. And I think it's very meaningful too. And I fully agree with you. And there is a lot of work that our work, but mainly many others too, are looking into this is that, you know, we are finding these. We have to validate these findings in bigger studies and consistently independently by other colleagues that are not of the same, looking at the same samples. But having said that, that there could be implications. So if C reactive protein levels are indeed really telling us all the way back that, you know, we can identify those who experience childhood trauma and it's really leading to negative health, especially behavioral health outcomes, but also physical health outcomes. Can we take those measures of C reactive protein as indicators of how we really treat people? Meaning those who come in with really high C reactive protein maybe needs more intensive treatment. And you can, from a molecular point of view, not to just debase very complex diseases, but you could look at it as if, you know, we are treating them with the focus on detox doxing. So if we can see that the C reactive proteins are going down. Right. Are we really succeeding in also kind of dampening those symptoms? And the debilitating suffering that they are going through.
- [49:08]
C
Yeah.
- [49:09]
B
Sort of think of an expense, the.
- [49:11]
C
Success of a treatment protocol.
- [49:14]
A
Am I hearing you say that there is management within this, this C type protein, that you can. C reactive protein, that you can manage it, you can decrease it, maybe in ways of detoxification?
- [49:28]
B
So we've seen in ongoing studies that, you know, people who come in with lower C reactive proteins tend to also benefit from the same treatment, meaning they get released, you know, they get better earlier. So what I'm saying is maybe we need to start thinking how we use this information to guide us to actually design treatment in such a way that especially those who went through sexual trauma are taken seriously and more importantly, if they went through sexual trauma as children, to really design treatments that are very intensive, conceive with a window on doing periodic sampling of C reactive protein and see, you know, are we really bringing this level down? And is that really correlating with, you know, reported, you know, self reports of feeling better, you know, in the long run? And that way we get some informed, you know, actionable targets that we can look at, not just what people are saying in terms of, okay, this is working, this is not working, but at the biological level too, since we are seeing these strong correlations.
- [50:54]
C
Yeah. And I think just to clarify, when you're talking about detoxification, it's not like doing a detox. It's about like doing a mental health protocol or working with your nervous system. So that over. That's the detoxification.
- [51:07]
B
Right. So it's an oversimplification of treatment in a molecular context. Yeah. So thank you for bringing that at all.
- [51:14]
A
Yeah, yeah. Oh, let's talk about the emotion, how emotional patterning gets in the brain.
- [51:20]
B
So, for example, there are different types of emotions, as you all know. But let's say, you know, we are, you know, on a, on a, on a tropical beach doing this conversation and, and, and a cobra comes in, you know, really rushing at us. Right. That's very visual. Right. Obviously the eye will see it and track it to the retina of any normal functioning person with acute vision. So that tracks through the visual pathway into the visual cortex, the primary visual cortex, which really we see that it's a black snake and it's probably a cobra because it connects to our memory system. And, you know, when it's black and it's, you know, flattening its head out and it's menacing, it's a cop, for example. Right. So what do we do at that moment? There is an emotional Trigger that all of the context that we are seeing, you know, it's not rubber, it's real. It's coming at us, and it's dangerous. If it bites, it may be too late before the antivenom comes and we want to be around to see the next day. Let's run. And it's. Instead of getting up and going here and thinking, oh, let me take my bag and let me take my computer, I'll just be jumping all over, right? We may even hit each other. And that's a typical flight response. So the emotion of fear and coding what's coming in. So getting back. So we started with the eye, the visual cortex, and then there is a secondary pathway that doesn't even go to the visual cortex. That goes into the amygdala, amygdala, or even brainstem areas, what we call superior colliculus, that are in eels, too. So way back in the evolutionary lineage when there were no mammals, the very primitive animals that are still in the sea and even in mud have those regions, even though they can't see well, right? But they have those region. So those regions will also pick the signal based on how intense that is, right? What's coming at us. So before we even think, we are already acting. So depending on the intensity of the emotion and also the survival value of it, or the negative survival value of it, we are hardwired to jump into action. So we could take this, for example, from the snake, which is very primitive, into really modern threads. Like, you know, we are at a concert and what. Unfortunately, these phenomenons are happening more often than any of us would want. Somebody just start to drive his car into the crowd, right? If you see a car coming in, obviously that's just very ubiquitous, right? There are cars all over the place. But if it's a car rushing through a crowd and then just mowing people down, right? We don't stand to think, hey, is a driver crazy? Or do they have a heart attack? Obviously, what we want to do is to get away from the pathway of that car, but not just blindly run, right, with our back on the car, but also be aware of where that car is going. So that our running car path, our flight path, is avoiding the car. So that's another example of emotion, and it could also be positive. So instead of running away, we are seeking more of it. I don't know if that explains it.
- [55:13]
A
It does. And what I find so interesting is, like when you started your example on the tropical beach, and my brain body, I'm like, oh, yeah, I love the beach. I can smell it. I can feel it right now. And then all of a sudden, there's a cobra.
- [55:24]
C
My body was like the same reaction.
- [55:28]
A
I've gone on an emotional journey.
- [55:31]
B
So it's interesting that you said your body. Right. But obviously the central player here is the brain. So, for example, all of these examples that we spoke about are visual sensory. So there is a school of thought that says that the eye is just an external sort of a camera, but an external view of the brain. Brain. And the retina is where the brain starts, so it's actually a part of the brain. So it's the brain really coding all of this. But obviously whatever the brain is doing is meaningless if it's not taking it back to the body. So from the eye to the retina, getting back to your question, to the visual pathway, to the primitive secondary visual sensory pathway, which is the superior colliculus and the amygdala, they go straight to the motor cortex, or how do you call it again, the feeling of your hair rising to the insula and then run for it. But they also go to the primary visual cortex that really gets to the memory, take its time. So before you process all of it, you will have to be also running to avoid that. And then the motor cortex is so important in that that it will be the one that's fully charging the rest of your muscles and extremities to do the work in terms of saving the body away from harm. But it could also be just imagined, right?
- [57:11]
C
Yeah, still right in there.
- [57:12]
B
Emotions are real, but you may not run, but you still very much get tense.
- [57:19]
C
Yeah.
- [57:19]
A
One of the things we teach in NSI is like, your eyes see, but your brain is where vision happens.
- [57:26]
C
I think we've covered a lot of ground on many different topics. Is there anything you would want people to take away from this conversation and the work that you're doing? Especially knowing that our audience is mostly people with complex developmental trauma or practitioners.
- [57:42]
A
Working with people who have complex.
- [57:45]
B
Right. So I guess again, thanks for the opportunity to share these thoughts, which are all from what other people do and a little bit of it, what we do in the lab and together with collaborators, but is that, you know, emotions from the healthy point of view are necessary for us to really not just navigate our environment, but stick around as long as we do and survive. But there is also a positive part of it, like it enhances our well being and, you know, not just stick around, but thrive. So within that balance, having a little bit appreciation for each individual having A little bit appreciation of how important emotions are, but also that they are absolutely not independent or removed from the rest of the body. They are just like a thermometer of the body state, you know, and how do you change that to keep the balance? But from a practitioner point of view, I think it's really important to think and work together as a team with neuroscientists, but other practitioners that when you are helping people, whether you're giving them medicine or trying to help them change their attitudes and behaviors, the biology is changing with it in terms of neuroplasticity. But when we think of neuro, it's not just the brain, because the brain is actually hard all the way to the toe. Even the fingernails of my toenails that I have are all having nubs. So if you take a very cold needle and put it on my toenail, well, in a millisecond, I'll know that's cold. And if it's a flatter surface, it gets even faster. If it's a hot one, I'll know that too. So it's all really hardwired. But a note that I really want to accentuate in terms of the importance of emotions is that our laws don't even have an acknowledgement of the fact that somebody who would come in here and just randomly look at me and slap me, I can go and do a police report. Right. And they may get in serious trouble, even go to jail. Right. But if somebody comes in here and insult any one of us, it may hurt even more, depending on the context of that insult. Right. We don't really have laws to kind of deal with that.
- [60:32]
C
So.
- [60:33]
B
So getting that awareness as individuals that emotions are very hardwired physically, but they are there to help us function and feel without the physical too. So the imagine is as important. And that comes back to also sexual abuse. Why is it really that it's so toxic or it's so destructive if it keeps happening? Especially for children, they get these revisitations. Sometimes the hurt actually still happens, even if it's not happening physically. So just the memory of it. Right. Can be very detrimental. So if all of us at least give a bit more room to respect the fact that emotions are really profound survival evaluators, it would help a long way, not just in terms of how we deal with each other, treat each other, but even change our laws to accommodate the fact that insults may be just as destructive.
- [61:44]
A
Destructive, yeah.
- [61:48]
C
Collect emotional neglect, emotional abuse, and the emotional capacity of the collective.
- [61:53]
A
Yeah. And I think too, I really love what you said. Part of our season is about post traumatic growth and you just said something when you first started talking about thriving through emotions and they really are gateways. And experiencing joy can be the threat for the person who's experienced a lot of abuse or neglect depending on the severity of that. And so re patterning for joy and learning to experience joy and happiness and comfort and, and compassion is just so important to the way that we thrive and survive.
- [62:27]
B
Indeed. Yeah.
- [62:28]
A
Amazing.
- [62:29]
C
Thank you so much for your time and just so many fascinating moments of really seeing the brain and the nervous system and the wiring and how interconnected the whole body is and then really understanding at a very deep level the biological connection and implications of emotional states and experiences.
- [62:50]
A
Yeah, it was very enjoyable. Thank you so much, Memba.
- [62:53]
B
I enjoyed the conversation. Thank you. Thank you.
- [62:55]
D
If you love Trauma Rewired, you've heard us talk about the tools that create real lasting change in the nervous system. Tools that help rewire deep seated stress responses, emotional patterns and survival strategies. But here's the thing. Healing isn't a one size fits all. Inside rewiretrial.com, you don't just learn about the tools. We guide you through applying the them in a strategic, personalized way that meets your unique nervous system. Where it is. Learn the exact neurosomatic tools we reference on the podcast. From vagus nerve drills to emotional processing techniques. Customize your practice to your own nervous system and pace so you see continued sustainable progress, experience, expert guidance and real support inside our live daily classes and interactive community. This is where you take the knowledge from the podcast and turn it into real embodied transformation. Start your two free week trial now and start rewiring for resilience@rewiretrial.com.