← Traveling Through with David Prior
Traveling Through with David Prior
Athena Calderone on Aspiration and an Endless Aesthetic Education
00:55:22
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- [00:06]
A
Pushkin. Self taught is not a slight when it comes to Athena Calderon. In fact, it might be the singular quality that makes her so special. She's famously been called the new Martha Stewart by the New York Times, and the Brooklyn brownstone she designed is the home that launched a million Pinterest boards. But knowing Athena is to know she doesn't really think of herself as an authority or even as an influencer. Growing up in Long island, she hit the nightlife of New York early, where she met her husband, DJ Victor Calderon, and they lived a life on tour. But her curiosity was never confined backstage. It's in fact where her aesthetic education began. So from discovering another side of Ibiza, being drawn in by Moroccan hospitality, renewing her roots in Rome, and now embracing the evolution of her eye in Vienna, Athena is one of those rare people that despite her beautiful life, she still manages to take us all on the road. Here's my conversation with my collaborator and friend, Athena Calderon. Welcome to traveling through. This is really a conversation for me about curiosity and curious people and how travels have shaped their life and their lens. We can start anywhere, but I'd love to think about, like, what is an earlier travel in your life that maybe kicked things off?
- [01:31]
B
Earlier travel wasn't really in my orbit at all. I didn't grow up with travel. I think the only places that we traveled to throughout my high school years was Vermont. Like, my dad would take me fishing every summer in a freshwater lake called Lake Bomasin in Vermont. We went to Florida once and we went to Puerto Rico once. And besides that, I'd never really been on a plane.
- [01:56]
A
Yeah, I didn't travel much when I was growing up. We went on a trip like kind of at Griswold's National Lampoons European vacation.
- [02:06]
B
Exactly.
- [02:07]
A
When we to Europe one time, which was very lucky and kind of changed my life when I was 10. But we stayed in youth hostels. It was not kind of a glamorous thing. And also I think there's this thing about being Australian where it's just those distances. So we traveled a bit to like, beach towns and things like that. But, you know, I have like this theory, and I would never change it, that if you traveled a lot as a child, sometimes you don't have the appreciation. The appreciation, but also this romantic sense of the rest of the world and this kind of inner urgent need to. To go and do those things. And I often, I think about you as having this inner urgent need around so many things. And I think that's why you're so voracious.
- [02:47]
B
I think you're absolutely right. I think we both share that for certain. Also, my lack of formal education, as well as my lack of travel and culture as a child has just made me, like, ripe for curiosity and, like, I want to self educate, I want to understand more, I want to see more, I want to learn more. And it's just made me, like, really hungry to see as much as possible. I'm also thinking back. We went camping a lot. Every memory that I have of travel, even though it was close by, was always. It holds a lot of emotion for me and adventure for me.
- [03:23]
A
I feel like the same way. I was obsessed with rock pools and finding little things and shells and starfish, like at the beach town that we. We went to, or, like, exploring up a creek, which is a very Australian kind of background. But I think it's like, it doesn't matter that you kind of went to the other side of the planet as a child. It's. If you have that innate sense of curiosity, it sort of grows.
- [03:47]
B
Yeah.
- [03:47]
A
You were telling me a little bit about your Morocco trip, and I'd love to talk to you a little bit more about that.
- [03:53]
B
Yeah, for sure. Well, when I had my son, Jivon, Victor, my husband, was on the road a lot. So travel coincided with marriage and family life. And we just took Jivan everywhere with us. And I also didn't have career at the time, so I was just on the road a lot with my husband, and we would just begin. That's like, really when travel began. But Morocco holds a very. Marrakesh, specifically holds a very special place in my heart because I'd never been to Africa before. And it wasn't even something that I had really researched. Like, I wasn't really at that point of my life where I was, like, studying and researching before I traveled, I was kind of just, like, up for seeing where we landed and, you know, what presented itself.
- [04:46]
A
What year did you go to Morocco?
- [04:48]
B
Jean was probably around 2, so it was 2005. And I'll just never forget, you know, walking through the Medina to get to the Riad, and it's just utter chaos and scents and sounds and, you know, just meandering, like small little blocks. And I was like, where are we going? What.
- [05:08]
A
What?
- [05:09]
B
Did I make the right choice? You know, like, it was just crazy for me to think about, like, you opened these, like, beautiful wooden doors, and they're an oasis awaits. And I just loved this idea of this, like, intimate, small home where you have these hosts that are legitimately like your hosts, like they are cooking for you. And you know, there's this, this nucleus of family, which was really my nucleus at the time. Like my family was and still is my everything. But I didn't, I don't want to say that it's all that I had, but like I didn't have a creative outlet at the time. And I'm such a creative. So I really threw myself into my family and it was the first time I was exploring like, you know, cooking and hosting and designing just in my home. Not professional. So being in this Riad and seeing these people so graciously host and care for every drop of experience that they were offering us. You know, Jivan, they invited Jivan into the. Who was two years old, but they invited him to the kitchen every night and he would stand up on a chair and he would cook with them. And. And I'm getting emotional because like they were communicating with this two year old and not speaking the same language and they were offering him this experience that I could never really offer him. Like he was understanding kind of culture and culinary and like, and love and care of food and family in a way that I could never have offered him otherwise. And I just remember being just hit with so much emotion as I am right now about how magical this experience is and so far from our life and from our everyday existence.
- [07:07]
A
I can feel that from you. The interesting thing about Morocco is it's not a restaurant culture at all. Maybe like to the exclusion of almost any other culture. Like you get the best food in those Riads or in those homes. I always tell people when they're going like, eat at the Riad.
- [07:25]
B
Eat.
- [07:25]
A
Try to get into people's homes. Cause that's where the best recipes are.
- [07:28]
B
Sure.
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A
And I take that from Moroccan culture too, that it is that principle of enveloping people.
- [07:35]
B
Yes, yes. I will never forget when we entered the Riad, it was really late at night. And Jivan, who was like a very kind of chill traveler and calm kid who still to this day is like, he's not very outward. He doesn't like. I'm not going to say he doesn't emote as a child. He wasn't super like verbal and like crying and yelling and I didn't even know what a riyadh was. And then I was there and saw how quiet and small and intimate and I was just like, I don't want to be that parent that has this kid that's like losing it. And I remember trying to settle him and quiet him and in that moment, I felt like he was psychic and he was feeling energies in the space, which is so. I've never really, like talked about this before, but I felt like there was like something that was like triggering him in that space. But then on the polar opposite, like the next day we went out into the medina and I remember being so overwhelmed by like everybody coming at you and trying to get you to come into their shop and buy something and negotiate with you. And I remember being like completely overwhelmed, sincerely. And I remember Jeevan just like being there, like looking, taking it in, calm as a cucumber. And I was just like this kid, man. Like, he like, is meant to travel.
- [08:56]
A
I feel like Marrakesh has another thing altogether now because, you know, it's such a tourist destination. And of course it still has its magic, but it's kind of evolved as well. There are a lot of designers based there now that are creating great things that are within that Moroccan design vernacular, like Benny Ruggs, the people that you did a collaboration with. And I think from a design perspective, those tiles, those rugs, like the Tuareg mats from Mauritania or the Berber culture that can be translated into homes, that I have one in my house in Milan. And I don't know, I think that now Morocco, it's a successful example of using the craftsmanship from there and contemporizing it. And that's not the case with a lot of these places where traditional craft sadly becomes kind of a museum piece or a tourist piece.
- [09:52]
B
When I wanted to talk with you about my experience in Marrakesh, it was more so initially that I wanted to talk about how it was the first place that really pushed me from a culinary point of view to explore flavors outside of the Italian American vernacular that I grew up with, as well as like, my design aesthetic back then for my homes was very like minimal and sleek and like singular, like B and B Italia. And then I went there and I just saw these like sun drenched colors and things that had patina and chips. And, you know, I started to suddenly see how I was like apprecia time worn colors and patina and history and craft. I'm just remembering this right now, but I was in the midst of designing an apartment that we had bought in Dumbo, two apartments that we were combining. And it was the first time that I really used travel as like this catalyst to make sure that I'm pulling pieces from these far flung places in the world. Like, every time I travel somewhere, I bring some sort of trinket Home that really celebrates.
- [11:01]
A
I'm a suitcase traveler. Yeah, you can help that. No, for sure. I mean, I think, look, there's definitely a reason why so many of those decorators not just go there and collect things. But think about Tangier. Right. Some of the great decorators on the planet have these houses there and then have exported to wherever they have their kind of businesses, whether it's London or New York or.
- [11:25]
B
Yeah, it's really at the center of, like, who I am as a designer right now. And I think that it started there. I didn't even think about the whole Jeevan Riyadh part of the story, because the home is this nucleus of my world still to this day. And whether it inspired the culinary side of my career or the design side of my career or the family at the center of it, I really feel like that Riad and that experience is so in alignment with, like, who I am today.
- [11:57]
A
Yeah. It's such a place and a labyrinth to discover. I remember going and shooting something for Vogue Living, actually, when I was kind of quite a naive travel writer, actually, which actually is, to be honest, the best. Yeah, the best. The best ones are the ones that are excited for the first time, because then if you've got a good editor, you can temper it a little bit. And I had a very good editor, but I went sort of. I remember it vividly. And I have this image that we shot, and I could not tell you who it was, what Riyadh it is. But it's this extraordinary image of a kitchen, actually, with the mosaic tiles on the wal walls, just a little wood table with kind of rattan back, a little window opening into a courtyard which had, like, this kind of very straggly jacaranda. When the cooking is happening and the sun goes down, the call to prayer is like, coming in through the roof. And, like, it's getting nighttime and the orange blossom is starting, you know, because they often have a. Have an orange blossom in there. I know. It's incredibly evocative. I wanted to talk to you. You know, you mentioned Victor, your husband, and why you traveled so often. And he, you know, is one of the great music producers and DJs worked on, from what I understand, one of the best albums of all time, which is Ray of Light, of course. But, yeah, I. You know, I think that's kind of why you traveled a lot to Ibiza. Is that right?
- [13:22]
B
Ibiza we traveled to before we got married. We got married in 99. I feel like the first time we went was maybe 98 and so, yeah, he's a DJ, and he plays all around the world. And it took us to Singapore and Australia and Japan in one trip, and then Israel and Italy and Ibiza and another trip. You know, like, we were just constantly. Or he was constantly on the road. And, you know, back then, there were bigger budgets, and, you know, they would fly both of us and Jivan, until he was under two, we didn't have to pay for a flight. So we just. We literally traveled the world together. But backing up to our first time in Ibiza, it was like the start of our love courtship. And then.
- [14:12]
A
Did you meet on the dance floor?
- [14:13]
B
We met at the Tunnel in New York City. I was a bartender. I just moved to New York. I was 19 years old. I had a shaved head because I was in a septum ring because I was trying to be, like, a bad girl, because I was such a Long island good girl who did all the right things, you know, like, never, like, drank or, like, partied or anything. And then I moved to New York City, and I was like, she's gonna become a bad girl. But it was like, just like, on the facade, you know?
- [14:44]
A
Well, one of my favorite parts of you, actually, is that you're still a party girl in ways.
- [14:48]
B
I mean, I do love a dance floor.
- [14:51]
A
You do love a dance floor.
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B
I love a dance floor.
- [14:52]
A
I've seen it.
- [14:53]
B
So, yeah, I mean, I'm glad you brought that up, because my roots as somebody, I mean, talk about where I saw culture for the first time. It was at the nightclub. Like, I was seeing fashion and art. I worked at the Palladium, and there was a Kenny Scharf room, and there was, you know, murals by Keith Haring. And I saw drag queens for the first time. And, you know, I just had, like, I. I was Experienced so much newness in my world, and I didn't have to travel very far. 30 minutes from where I grew up, and all of a sudden I found all this, like, art and culture and fashion. But anyway, Victor and I met at the nightclub, and then we started. His career kind of took off after we met. And then Ibiza happened. And what I love so much about Ibiza is the very first place that we ever traveled with Zivan as a baby, he was under 1 years old, was Ibiza. So I. You know, it started with, like, Victor's career and our courtship, and then it became where. Like a place where we went as a young family, also as he was DJing. And then fast forward now the past, like, you know, we've been going for over 25 years, but more recently we've been spending a lot of time there. And it feels like this beautiful full circle moment where, you know, Jivan's early years were there. And now Jivan's a DJ and he's a producer and he's on the dance floor with us in the nightclubs. And last summer, Victor DJed at Circo Loco, which is like one of the. The biggest parties in Ibiza. And it was like me and Jivon and some of Jivon's friends, like, all in the DJ booth, like, going for it. And it just. I was just like, this is the talk about the center of my world is my family. But it's also nightlife. And the fact that now we still do it as a family.
- [16:50]
A
I mean, that's rare.
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B
It's really rare. And also, you know, that Jivon is 23 years old now and, like, he still wants to be with us, he still wants to travel with us. Like, you know, it's. It's really sweet. It's just really sweet. And. And Ibiza is so much more than just nightlife, you know what I mean?
- [17:08]
A
Because, well, there is like a very literal other side of Ibiza.
- [17:13]
B
Yes.
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A
And another side of Ibiza. Like, how do you understand the other side of it?
- [17:17]
B
Like, we hike a lot when we go to Ibiza. And it's so funny. Sometimes they say Ibiza and sometimes they say Ibiza.
- [17:23]
A
But, you know, I mean, same, same. I would. I just kind of. Whatever comes out.
- [17:28]
B
Yeah, yeah. The nature is just like. The rugged coastline is so incredible. The exploration, the. Just like the raw and the wild. The north side of the island is so special, which is where we first started going when.
- [17:44]
A
Oh, really? Yeah. So you. Okay.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Right.
- [17:47]
B
We were there. The very first hotel we ever see it in was all the way north. And then, yeah, these past few summers, we do these really long sunset hikes. And it literally gives me life. Like those hikes, it's so beautiful because it pushes me outside of my comfort zone. You have to be so present. It forces me to, like, jump inside these, like, you know, underwater caves. And I'm always doing it with my family and with our dog. And it just. You're so.
- [18:17]
A
You know, it's funny you say that because, like, I only got to know the Balearic Islands and mostly Mallorca in the past few years, obviously, because it's no secret to Germans or British people. And there's a certain thing that happens there, but it's had this big kind of Renaissance. And part of the thing that I didn't really realize about those islands is they're kind of the hub of European healers. I did not realize that there is some energy there. And those communities. Like, I did a Watsu massage, which is one of those, like, whirlpool ones. It's like being in the womb. And it's only because it was the only thing that was on the spa menu. And my girlfriends were going to something, and I'm not like the biggest wellness or spa person, but I'm up for everything. And it was kind of extraordinary. This woman was like. It was almost like a doula, you know, it was one of the most intense experiences that I've had in that vein. And I just didn't realize there was that energy there.
- [19:22]
B
There's a huge community of healers, especially in that north side of Ibiza, and there's a lot of, like, agriculture and farms, which is why the food is so fantastic. Like, the north really has this, like, beautifully, like, rooted, I don't know, healing energy. But then also esvedra, which is. It's that big formation of rocks on the, like, more western side of the island. But they say it's one of the most, like, energetic and magnetic places on Earth. People are like, oh, Ibiza either welcomes you or it spits you out. And I'm just like, okay. I don't always, like, buy into the whole woo woo thing, but there is something beautifully energetic about the island.
- [20:06]
A
The other thing I was thinking about is, you know, I think sometimes for these places that actually we return to because we have memories or an experience that replicates year to year, it's kind of that return place, and that's kind of special. I thought maybe as your life evolved, it would be different. But I think that's really interesting.
- [20:26]
B
I think I stopped, like, going out with Victor and being a part of his nightlife world. And I think it's also something that's at the core of our marriage. Like, we've always had really individual lives, but also like a unit, as you said. But when I was trying to figure out career and I was a young mom, I kind of stopped going out. And it more recently nightlife and dancing. You know, now I have this, like, big career and I have a lot of pressure and I have like, a lot of time that I'm like, head down in a computer and like, that part of me, like that real free spirit where I get to like, quote unquote, let my hair down and like, just be kind of Anonymous. And be with the people that, like, pull joy out of me. Like, I needed her back in my life. And I, like, made a strategic choice to make sure I honored who I was as a club goer, you know what I mean? Like, it's part of who I am and it does bring me a lot of joy. But I will say if I can, if I let myself just go too far into that nightlife part of Ibiza, because you can, that doesn't speak to who I am either. So, in a way, the island became this, like, mirror for me. Like last year I, like, was doing yoga three days a week. Like in these, like up on the top of a hill on a platform, like hearing the cicadas and these like big pine trees. And like, I really tapped back into that, like, yogi part of myself. I was going to the market a lot and I was, you know, cooking non stop, like in the house that we rented to, like that part of myself that sometimes falls to the wayside when I'm too busy in New York City. Like, I do feel like Ibiza really allows me to focus on, like, who the various parts of who I am. I don't think design and like culture, like, it doesn't have, like, museums or like, you know, but it does different kind.
- [22:20]
A
It's like it's a. It has. It has a culture of its own completely. You know, I think that when we're talking about the unit and you're like, great love, Victor. That's kind of how we met. Right. I was just thinking about it because you were planning your.
- [22:34]
B
I was planning my. Yeah. My 25 year wedding anniversary coincided with. That's so interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I kind of hadn't realized that I got married at 25. So then it made my 50th birthday and my 25 year wedding anniversary coincide. And in that moment, I didn't do a big celebration for my 40th birthday. We actually went to Africa. We went on a safari. At that point in my life, I didn't feel like celebrating like 4o, but 5o coinciding with 25 years of love. It just felt like a celebration of love and life that needed to be like a big event. And you were the first person that I thought to reach out to, to help me navigate that.
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A
My great love, of course, is Italy. And one that we share and you share as a. As a background. Right. As a heritage.
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B
Sure. And Victor as well.
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A
And Victor, too. Oh, well, of course. Calderon. Calderone.
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B
Calderone.
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A
But that's how we first. I Think you messaged me, and then we had a little. A little coffee, and we weren't going to work together necessarily on the trip, because, you know, I have a very strong point of view. You have a very strong point of view on things. But it's been a really fun collaboration, and I guess it started as your vow renewal and just some ideas for the 50th birthday, but I'm gonna hand it over to you because it's really your story.
- [23:58]
B
Well, thank you. I. I have a love of Italy, as you do, and I'd never been to Umbria, and I was trying to find the perfect place to do something very intimate with just my family, and then also to do something a little bit more over the top and grand with my friends. And I felt like Umbria offered that, like, quiet countryside, and then Rome offered the grandeur of, like, literally, a living museum. But those were two places in my mind. I feel like I shared a lot of places, though. Like, I was thinking we just had started to have this conversation, like, is it Palermo? Because that's where Victor's family's from.
- [24:40]
A
The Palazzina Chinese, which is this, like, chinoiserie folly on the edge of Palermo to Venice, I think, was the original.
- [24:48]
B
We talked about Venice. Yes.
- [24:49]
A
You know, we went all over the map, and that's.
- [24:51]
B
That really speaks. Speaks to, like, the chaos of my creative brain a little bit. But it wasn't until you helped me find the locations, and first and foremost, you had just toured Palazzo Talia.
- [25:04]
A
Yes.
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B
And it wasn't even open yet.
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A
Right.
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B
So for me, it's. It's so funny because I'm this way about, like, design and real estate, too. Like, recently, people are like, why did you move to Tribeca? And I was like, well, it wasn't Tribeca. It was just finding the right place. So I. Until I found the right place, I would have gone anywhere in Italy. I would have gone outside of Italy. It was just finding the place that was intimate enough to host friends without being this grand hotel where everyone would get lost.
- [25:31]
A
And also somewhere where a lot of people have done things before. Like, you want to show something new and bring something, like, a different thing to your gigantic audience and also do something that spoke to you in a special way. I love, you know, part of the reason I was like, yes. And then we really got into the planning and the execution around it. But I love working with people who have a romantic sense and an idea of what they want to do and an idea of a place, and then, like, pulling it Together with the reality.
- [26:06]
B
Well, you did that brilliantly. Because I wanted. Well, it's true. I wanted a grand room to host, like, 40 guests, and it needed to have that, like, Palazzo Grandeur, but also delicious food and in a city that people from New York can get to, like, without having to travel. Like, that was another thing. Like, you couldn't get off the plane and then had to, like, travel two to three hours if you're only going for a long weekend. So I. You know, it really speaks to what you are so brilliant at.
- [26:38]
A
Thanks. I mean, I think also it was like, just on that point of view, you know, romance and reality. It's not like I'm gonna take you to the reality of how we're gonna do this. Actually, what I find, and the joy of it is when you mix those two things, they become something actually more romantic and special because you're. You find the way to put the spotlight on the best of the place, which I think was so fun for us to do. We had such a. Like, collaboration around. That was amazing.
- [27:09]
B
And your team is incredible. And capital, you know, bringing Capital One into the fold. So, you know, incredible because beyond having that exceptional experience, for my 50th birthday at Palazzo Talia, we went back to Rome together with Capital One a year later, and, you know, created this beautiful experience for cardholders and got to, you know, replicate going to the. I mean, can we just talk about, like, everybody says to me, like, how did you get into the Vatican? Like, privately with. What is your secret sauce about? Like, you know, getting access to. Oh, don't share too much, because it is your secret sauce.
- [27:47]
A
I mean, you know, what? People can get you into the Vatican, right? You can go, like, early hours and, you know, the Catholic Church is. Is looking to monetize. Yeah, monetize. No, but look, they got a lot of pieces that they got to restore and keep, like, gleaming like the Vatican museum does. But, you know, my colleague Carlotta, who is a very special person who is able to, you know, she's what they call in Italy, educata, Very polite, knows how to navigate, asking the right question.
- [28:31]
B
She has, like, a very calm demeanor.
- [28:33]
A
A ninja. Unbelievable. And I think this is the case, and I am certain, in various different iterations, when you're curious about something and respectful to anyone, whether it is the papal rooms or the fishermen, wherever that might be, they always open up in the right way. Yes. That was threading a needle and getting the Swiss Guard to agree. Not only the after hours, but the real thing, that, from our perspective, Because I know you wanted to take a photo because it's a special moment to. It was more than just visiting it as a tourist or as someone interested in that. I know you wanted to keep that memory. I think you think like I do in photo moments, not just because of your work and not just because of my work, but because just affirms that that thing that you did, it kind of imprints it into your story, and
- [29:34]
B
it triggers the memory for a lifetime and beyond.
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A
Yeah. So Calora, I still don't know exactly how she got the Swiss Guard to allow them to do that, but.
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B
Yeah, we were inside the Vatican.
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A
The Sistine Chapel.
- [29:49]
B
Oh, yeah, sorry. We were inside the Sistine Chapel. Yeah, we were allowed to take photos. Was in the Vatican, but the Vatican Museum. But inside the Sistine Chapel, we were told you could not take any photos. And then they said, you're allowed to take a photo. And, you know, I was up on the altar, and I was just like, somebody grab a camera? I mean, everybody had their camera.
- [30:09]
A
Yeah.
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B
But, like, everyone was told they couldn't. So then it was all of a sudden, you know, it actually. I won't say it distracted me, but I'm so happy. Like, then all of a sudden, I was, like, seeing it through the lens instead of seeing it for real. So when we went back with Capital One, I didn't take my. I was like, oh, I've got this already. So that the second time around, I just, like, took it in and took in the emotion. That was a very special experience. And also, you know, there was, like. I didn't know it was my first time also ever at the Vatican, but there was, like, also so much Greek history and, like, learning about, like, Athena.
- [30:46]
A
The map hall, I mean, that is
- [30:48]
B
the map hall was, to me, that
- [30:50]
A
is, like, absolute heaven.
- [30:52]
B
But talk about how I take inspiration from everything I see when I travel. Red porphyry is one of the oldest Roman stones. And there is this, like, massive, like, sculpture or structure as well as in the mosaic floors that is red porphyry. And from there, I dove down the rabbit hole of discovery. And now in my Tribeca home, like, there are elements of red porphyry in my home. So I feel like, you know, I can walk through my home and know, you know, every place that I saw and traveled to, and it triggers a mem, and that's how you create and build an emotive living home, you know?
- [31:31]
A
So, yeah, it's funny. I. I just went again. But we went with 15 members of my family from age 4 to 85. It's a very different experience when you're cycling through with thousands of people. But, you know, that's, that's what we were doing. And this trip actually was quite special because it was basically 30 years to the, to the day since we went as a, as a family.
- [31:56]
B
Oh, wow.
- [31:56]
A
Yeah. And so it was really special. And you know, my eldest brother passed away not long after that. You know, he got diagnosed with cancer. And well, and it was just interesting. I mean, I don't mean to go too far into it, but one of the eldest boys is the same age. It was really meaningful for my parents. But. But this actually kind of a. It's a funny story. The littlest one who is, you know, like the team mascot, let's say her name is Joey. She's just a very chill, you know, little perfect thing that, you know, you can throw around everywhere. And she marched around Rome and wherever we were the entire time. But we went to the Vatican Museum. It was towards the end of the trip. You know, when you're four and this size, you're not seeing things. You're not that, of course that interested. Basically you're eye line with everyone. Asses, you know, you're just there. And this kid never complains about anything. She's kind of extraordinary. And as we walked into the Sistine Chapel, this little kid went boring, very boring. And it was like I was mortified, but I had never seen anything like it. And it just killed us. It cracked us up. And you know, they haven't traveled much at all. It was a very special gift from my parents to the whole family.
- [33:14]
B
And that trip to umbria for my 25 year wedding anniversary. My brother had never left the country and had always wanted to go to Italy. So it was just, you know, myself, Victor and Jivan and then my mom and my brother and my brother's wife. You know, having this like beautiful experience in Umbria and giving them that gift of travel was something that it was so important to like all be together in this like beautifully magical place and honor our marriage. I mean, this is probably too intimate, but my brother struggled with addiction and he was unable to be at my wedding when I got married 25 years ago. So to have him there for the renewal of the vows and he's sober now, was really, really special.
- [34:05]
A
And we found a house which I don't know, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't a palazzo, just to be clear. It's a little. Not little, big house, but not what you're Thinking it's not a castle on a hill, it's a house that had
- [34:21]
B
a chapel in the house from the 13th century.
- [34:24]
A
Yeah. And in this pale yellow and violet. And the photo of you, I have to say is just. You take a good photo, but this one is absolutely.
- [34:36]
B
It was so special. And also it was just like, you know, you think about your wedding. This wasn't my wedding, but like it was wedding part two and you know, it's usually like somebody else is doing everything for you. And this was just us, you know, it was like me, my mom and my sister in law like running around like lighting candles. Like it was just like the most like intimate and grand thing at the same time. Again, it was just, it was just perfect.
- [35:02]
A
The last thing I want to talk about in Rome is Palazzo Talia. In this, this Sala, this allomania, you created this table. I mean you're, you know, that's a signature. But just tell me a little bit about that table because I still blown away that how you did that.
- [35:20]
B
Thank you. Food and design, where those two things intersect is around the table. And around the table is where I have found my, my passion, my community. Just like you found your secret sauce and your like special talents. Like, you know, you fused together with prior, your love of travel and writing and curation. It really was around the table that gave me my love of noticing and realizing the importance of all of the elements coming together. It's not happenstance, it's not by accident. It has to be the right lighting, it has to be the right tones and the florals. And you have to draw inspiration in the way I do anyway. I have to draw inspiration from the culture itself. So it was like being in. I didn't really exactly know what was going to happen on that table until I was in Rome. And I saw the colors at the Vatican and that porphyry, that purple radicchio. I mean, you know, I went to the market and saw the radicchio was kind of bursting and the artichoke was, you know, in season and the color of the red porphyry at the Vatican. And I drew inspiration from all the tones and colors and the markets and everything seasonally. That was how. And just built this beautifully undulating cornucopia of like flower and food and design. And it was just the fusion of Rome coming to life on the table.
- [36:44]
A
One thing I like to do with Rome, you can travel through the basilicas, the churches, the kind of Catholic lens, you can go the art Caravaggio, you can do ancient Rome, but I like to think as well. And sometimes I say you can also do gelato, by the way, but. But I like to tell people to travel through Rome through vegetables. Oh, I love that because you get the artichokes, you get the puntarelli, which is kind of a bitter green, you know, all those bitter greens, the chicoris, like there is so much through that kind of Lazio. The region of Rome where you can really pull from. This episode of Traveling through is sponsored by Capital One. Capital One cardholders are passionate about unforgettable experiences. Together we partner to connect these curious travelers to world cultures through expert guided journeys. From the peaks of Machu Picchu to the grand architecture of Vienna, these once in a lifetime trips take you somewhere truly off the beaten path. Through Capital One Entertainment, eligible cardholders can book exclusive experiences and so much more, all while earning elevated rewards. Saver cardholders earn 8% cash back and Venture X earns 5x miles. Thanks to Capital One, your dream getaway is one step closer. We're talking about the eternal city. Let's go to Paris, which is, you know, the muse of so many for a variety of reasons, but again, there's so many doorways in. I'd love to hear your take on it.
- [38:11]
B
Well, Paris was the first place I ever traveled to with my mom. My mom worked at American Airlines growing up, so we used to do these like buddy passes where we would like travel standby. And Paris was the first place I ever traveled to in Europe with my mom at about 20 years old. And the reason we went there is because I was trying to model and an agency in Paris like brought me there. And so my very first experience was getting off. Well, I went with my mom first and then I went back with this modeling experience and I was so, so young and so green to travel. And I remember like getting off of the plane and like having me go straight to this modeling agenc and having them send me on all these castings and having to figure out the metro system with my luggage before I even like found my model apartment, which by the way was like this teeny tiny apartment with a toilet which was a hole in the floor in the hallway. I didn't grow up fancy.
- [39:16]
A
But not the bathroom in the Tribeca apartment on the COVID of AD Currently.
- [39:22]
B
No, not at all. Yeah, it was just like this hole in the ground. But, but that was my very first experience with Paris and kind of fast forward. We spent our 10 year wedding anniversary in Paris and it was the first time I like visited the Rodin Museum and really was kind of smitten by culture, like Parisian, like sculpture and culture and music. It was really the first time when I lived there as a model. I didn't really go to a lot of the museums. I don't know why I didn't appreciate it back then, maybe, but. But more recently, when I bought this apartment in Tribeca and really became so immersed and inspired by the Art Deco movement, I really spent a lot of time in 2023 and 2024 just educating myself and visiting not only the museums, but also so many beautifully private homes. Like, we did a photo shoot for Benny Ruggs in the Augusta Perrette apartment. It was this most beautiful apartment building that he designed the entire facade and interiors, but this was his private apartment. And it had these beautiful wood paneled clad walls, which is very similar to my apartment. Had this gorgeous deco kind of COVID ceiling that was, like, glimmering and white, but also very industrialist in that, you know, there were these beautiful columns that were poured concrete that were met with these. This gorgeous, like, metal, brass trim. Like, there was just this, like, coming together of so many beautiful design elements that, again, I've drawn so many of the details from that experience in that apartment into my apartment. Like, including all of the doorknobs when I walked through the apartment building were center doorknobs, like very low center doorknobs. And, you know, now in my home, I have these beautiful center doorknobs. And I just think that, you know, I have really used Paris and I actually brought an object today. Oh, I'd love to hear about that.
- [41:27]
A
Yeah.
- [41:27]
B
Being at the Paris flea market has been such an education for me of, you know, doing my own research before I've gone to Paris. But then also I started to better understand some of the greats in early 20th century, like Paul du Pre Lafont. And in a similar way that travel wasn't present like that, design education wasn't really present. So when I dive into a new movement in design, I am just, like, lit up with curiosity and excitement. And I start to read everything. I start to educate my eye, but then, like, being there and picking up these objects. But Jean Danone is. He did beautiful lacquer work and metal work, and there was no way I can ever afford one of his vessels or vases. But in the Paris fleet, I found this vase, which is kind. It's probably like some sort of replica, but it really represents, like, the deco movement and craft. And this was one of the.
- [42:23]
A
What's it made of?
- [42:24]
B
It's metal.
- [42:25]
A
Okay.
- [42:26]
B
But yeah, it has this like beautiful patina and if you look at it, it has this like gorgeous hammering detail and has these geometric forms on it. And this was one of the very first objects that I ever bought for my apartment. But it just goes back to like everywhere I go. I made finding something that lives on in my homes and is triggering memories of where I've been. And it speaks to my love of travel and design and self education.
- [42:52]
A
So it's through the kind of idea of travel. It's so clear that you take, you know, you research, you're a researcher, like for sure, I know that firsthand. But you're also really open to the unexpected. I'm like that way too. I've got. Okay, this is what I'm after. Yeah, I'm finding other pieces, but also I'm responding to this in a way that I didn't think I would.
- [43:20]
B
Well, you have to be able to kind of pivot as well. We're talking about like that early 20th century design and that art deco movement. When I started to study that period in design and also bought my apartment, I just got flooded with this. This apartment reminds me of Vienna. And I was like, huh, that's so strange. I've never been to Vienna. Why would this apartment remind me of it? But you almost like have to listen sometimes.
- [43:43]
A
Of course. Yeah.
- [43:44]
B
And that trip that I went to Paris. Oh, by the way, that trip to Paris, I went by myself. It wasn't a family trip, it wasn't with a friend. It was just me going and giving myself license to go explore and self educate. So I went to Paris and then I went to Vienna and I just went to understand the Viennese succession and understand craft. And one of the things that I had no idea I was going to be smitten by was like falling in love with leaded glass, which started in Vienna at the Mack Museum and walking in and seeing this like beautiful grid like pattern with this like beautiful craftsmanship and metalwork and hand blown glass and I just became so, so smitten with it. Not really realizing that I had elements of it in my apartment and I was planning on demolishing it. I didn't appreciate its beauty. So like, I guess what I'm talking of is like sometimes there's like these hidden codes and things that you see that is triggering something within you, but you don't even realize it. And then I didn't know that like craft and materiality of the 20th century was going to really be at the Cornerstone of my design renovation. But it became that from these trips to Paris and Vienna, I gave you
- [45:01]
A
this book, which I guess is like, you know, one of the gospels of. Of that era. Finzersek. But do you want me to tell you why? Aside from the fact that we share a love of Vienna, and this was a little bit in research for the capital one trip that we're doing together, which is like chapter two of our travel, friendship, collaboration.
- [45:22]
B
Yes.
- [45:22]
A
But the reason I gave it to you, without getting too cerebral or Viennese intellectual, you know, it's about, like an exhaustion with the old world and an aesthetic and an idea in friction with something modern that's coming and an anxiety about being stuck in something else. And I just saw it, you know, I had.
- [45:44]
B
You already read it.
- [45:45]
A
Yeah, I had read it, but years and years ago, when I was doing a story for Vogue Living, I. I skimmed it.
- [45:54]
B
Yeah, yeah, it's.
- [45:54]
A
And then I. Yeah, it's dense. But I. I kind of. I did do more on it when we were thinking about this particular trip, because everyone says the most famous kitchen in America, basically from the previous house, you know, the. Well, the most Pinterest. Da, da, da, da. And I'm not. I didn't want to talk to you about that because it's an evolution. And what I thought about was, like, this idea that there's an exhaustion with the previous aesthetic they had, that there's an anxiety about moving into the new thing. And I know that this project that you've done was a swing, a challenge, the biggest thing in many ways. And you correct me if I'm wrong, that you've done. It was a big challenge. And that's the thing of moving to a new aesthetic and evolving. That's why I. I wanted to give you that.
- [46:49]
B
Thank you. And I really appreciate you kind of seeing that in me and honoring or appreciating that, because, yeah, it was a. A big divergence. Like, most people would have never sold that townhouse. But I. I needed. And it also speaks to what we started, this conversation about this kind of this. This drive, this need for newness and, you know, evolution. Evolution. And I'm always trying to not reinvent, just for the sense of reinvention. I'm not doing it to shock other people. I'm doing it for me. I'm doing it because my curiosity always wants to change and evolve. And every time I get to design something, if I get to go on this journey of self discovery and self education, like, I am filled with so much excitement and you know, it is the research. I love doing the research and I was not good student. So like the fact that like I get off on like diving into and reading and educating and understanding at the core what the successionists were, why they were challenging the status quo and you know, I thought it was really interesting that you were comparing me to that and it, it felt really special.
- [48:04]
A
Well, I think that yeah, I, I completely believe it and I think with this Capital One project as well, you know, it's going to be sharing your. Our view on it. And they're very, they're very good to give us a big canvas in which to explore that I have to say and backing in some experiences like doing an after hours thing to the Mac Museum where you I hope are going to do a little reading of my next book.
- [48:33]
B
Yes.
- [48:34]
A
Which is.
- [48:35]
B
So it really is the unpacking of the creative mind of going on this journey of design for this particular apartment and how travel helped inform and made its way through an entirely new lens. You know, I'll share so much about how the things that I saw in Vienna and the stones I saw in Rome and all the places that I've traveled, even you know, going last year I went to Kyoto for the first time and you know, found the, this beautiful parchment and lacquer work that then informed a furniture collection that I'm designing. So it's really just about how both self education and this apartment and travel coalesce to like push me to explore new ideas and new forms and new everything.
- [49:22]
A
Will you ever think of yourself, I wonder, as a teacher rather than a self educator?
- [49:27]
B
I do love, I'm not a gatekeeper. I love sharing. I really. And I think that it's because it took me a really long time to find myself. You know, I wasn't, it wasn't until my mid-30s that I really found career and like any type of success and the success didn't even come until later. So I asked so many questions like cure like curiosity is the gift that I would wish on everybody to just ask questions. If you don't understand something, always probe and ask and go to other people who you admire and have them teach you. And I think I've learned so much from other people that I do have this. I always want to learn, but I always want to push it back out into the world and share. So there is a teaching thing and
- [50:15]
A
I think about curiosity is that it keeps you vital. I read something recently that you know, people say you've got to practice daily gratitude, which of course is great or joy is the thing that will give you a long life. But actually there's some kind of study and I can't, you know, I'm not going to reference it because I saw it in passing that said awe is the thing that will keep you awake and alive in this world. And I thought, well, awe is curiosity. I mean, that's the two things. And that childlike, wonderful, or respect for the beauty and difference of the world is honestly, for me, the thing a. That's interesting in my career, but also I think the thing that keeps me like alive, feeling everything that's so beautiful.
- [51:01]
B
And like, you know, I've said so many times that, like my greatest. I've said this, but it comes off negatively. And I don't mean for it to come off negatively, but I've said so often that my greatest wound is my lack of formal education in design. But I actually think it's my greatest gift because it keeps me hungry. It keeps that awe. You know, if I already knew about the Successionists and the art deco movement, like, I wouldn't have thrown myself into this discovery with such awe, you know?
- [51:31]
A
Yeah. You know, and this sounds, I often say as well, Alice Waters, who I used to work for, you know, was several months in, let's say, and she had the office door ajar. And I overheard her say in reference, I think, to me, you know what? Naivety is powerful when harnessed in the right way. And that's not a negative thing. No, that's a powerful thing. And I also think, like, Australia, what
- [51:57]
B
a gift that you got to overhear that.
- [51:59]
A
I agree. Actually, I took it as a wound at that point. I was like, well, I'm not naive. I've just lived in Italy and you know, Australia is not the end of the world. It's the 14th biggest economy. And you know, I partied in Sydney, like. But actually it's not about, like your experience. I mean, it is about your experiences as well, but it's also about your attitude to life because it's also curiosity. And if you lose that, I think it's losing a powerful gift. So I'm aligned with you a little bit because everyone would like to know, of course, a few of Athena's first reactions, things that she loves, of course. So I wanted to ask you, like a little bit, let's say, a lightning round, what's the place that you would always return?
- [52:47]
B
I will always return to Italy. Any place in Italy. I don't care where.
- [52:50]
A
Where's a place that you would never go Back.
- [52:53]
B
I really didn't understand Rio when I went, but it just might have been that I wasn't with the right people.
- [52:58]
A
Where do you feel most at home in the world?
- [53:01]
B
I feel most at home in Ibiza.
- [53:04]
A
Where's a hotel you could live in? Favorite hotel.
- [53:07]
B
Oh, goodness. My favorite hotel. I love the soccer hotel in Vienna because it's so different than, like, my life.
- [53:18]
A
Right? Yeah. Well, def. I mean, it's different from most people's lives. A restaurant or taste that you wish you could experience again.
- [53:26]
B
I didn't grow up eating fish. Sorry. I know this is supposed to be a lightning round, but being in Greece for the first time and having like a whole fish just with exceptional olive oil and lemon, to me, like on a Greek island.
- [53:39]
A
Great museum.
- [53:41]
B
The Mac Museum.
- [53:42]
A
Yeah. And shop or market.
- [53:45]
B
I will go back to the Roman vegetable market any time of day.
- [53:49]
A
Testacio.
- [53:50]
B
Fantastic.
- [53:51]
A
Me too. Me too.
- [53:52]
B
Yes.
- [53:52]
A
Where would you spend? Ideally? Complete fantasy. Drop everything apart of the realities of your life. A weekend, a week, a month, a year,
- [54:03]
B
a weekend. The first thing that came to mind was going back to Vermont. Since my dad passed, I haven't been back. So I'd love to go to Vermont for the weekend. I want to go back to where we used to fish week. I have never been to Iceland and I recently found out how close it is.
- [54:21]
A
So yes, for sure. Month.
- [54:24]
B
I want to go alone to India, by myself.
- [54:28]
A
I got you. And a year.
- [54:32]
B
Well, I will go for multiple years living in the countryside in Italy. I want to learn how to speak Italian. So that's only going to happen if I spend a year there.
- [54:40]
A
Well, come and visit me in Milan.
- [54:41]
B
Great.
- [54:42]
A
What are you traveling through right now?
- [54:45]
B
I am traveling through growth and expansion and figuring out what that looks like. Of retaining my purity and authenticity and humility. And also wanting to grow and scale with grace.
- [55:04]
A
Amazing. Athena. This has been wonderful.
- [55:07]
B
Such a great conversation. Thank you, friend.