Deborah Needleman on Handmade Beauty and Going to the Source

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Traveling Through with David Prior"

Episode: Deborah Needleman on Handmade Beauty and Going to the Source
Date: July 30, 2026
Host: David Prior
Guest: Deborah Needleman

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Overview

In this engaging episode, David Prior sits down with Deborah Needleman—former Editor in Chief of Domino, WSJ Magazine, and New York Times Style Magazine—to explore the meaning and impact of handmade beauty, the transformative nature of hands-on crafts, and the enrichment found in traveling "to the source." Deborah reflects on her dramatic shift from a powerful editorial life at the center of culture to immersing herself as a “curious apprentice” in basketry and traditional crafts around the world. The conversation ranges from the glamour and exhaustion of fashion weeks to the beauty and connection in folk schools, and from the rich ecosystems of Venice to the living folk culture of Morocco, India, and beyond.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Deborah’s Pivotal Career Shift

• From Fashion to Folk Crafts
  • Needleman recalls her last trip as editor—global fashion weeks (New York, London, Milan, Paris), often considered luxurious but experienced as exhausting and unfulfilling.
    • "To say I was tired of it is euphemistic for how I felt about it. I hated it." —Deborah [02:22]
  • She sought connection and independence, leading her to folk crafts, like basketry, after encountering a “folk school” in Appalachia.
  • The contrast between high-powered editorial life and the humble experience of folk schools (e.g., morning songs, clog dancing, communal learning) was transformative.
    • "There's this kind of intimacy that I realized you can have with strangers... there is a real connection, and that was something I was really missing." —Deborah [05:08]

The Enduring Thread: Beauty in Daily Handcraft

• Magazine Instincts Carry Forward
  • Even in her editorial life, Deborah gravitated toward stories of daily beauty and utility—such as craftspeople in the British Isles and garden writers.
  • Understanding and highlighting how culture is “embodied” in simple, beautiful, useful daily crafts.

Traveling to the Source: Venice

• Ecology and Craft as Entry Point
  • Lived in Venice for a month for a basketry project and exhibition.
  • Explores the unique "built" and natural environment—the lagoon is essential to understanding Venice, not just its architecture.
  • Researching Venetian basketry highlighted endangered local materials and the fragile ecosystem.
    • "Basketry is always about a particular place...if I'm showing baskets in Venice, they should be connected to Venice, to its landscape, its plants, and the history of basketry in Venice." —Deborah [12:33]
  • The process involved digging through historical paintings and working with local biologists, underscoring craft as a way into deeper cultural and environmental understanding.

Morocco: Old Traditions and Contemporary Realities

• Berber/Amazigh Basketry Today
  • Deborah describes her recent road trip in Morocco, researching for an upcoming basketry exhibition.
  • Discussion about tourist-trade crafts vs. traditions practiced by communities for themselves.
    • "It's a way that the tradition is still living...pockets of places where people are still making for themselves and for their own use." —Deborah [15:57]
  • The adventure of research: visiting collectors, archives, and weaver homes—highlighting Morocco’s diversity and sense of discovery for the curious traveler.

The Excitement and Difficulties of Craft-Focused Travel

• Authentic Encounters
  • Both host and guest agree that traveling with a focused curiosity—art, food, music—opens doors into communities and leads to richer, more connected experiences.
    • "Having a particular interest and bringing that into a place is such a fantastic way to connect." —Deborah [20:49]
  • Sometimes, mishaps and challenges (e.g., the candle disaster in Calcutta) become the stories that are cherished later.
    • "Those kind of disasters are better in retrospect. They make for good stories, even though they're stressful." —Deborah [28:01]

Japanese Craft Traditions

• Dedication, Generational Knowledge, and Tangible Heritage
  • Deborah's travels in Japan opened her to reverence for craft—where artisans might dedicate decades to a single practice, often through multiple generations.
    • "The dedication to craft in Japan is like nothing I've ever seen...he couldn't go to his son's wedding because he had to tend the indigo vat." —Deborah [33:15]
  • The importance of research and advance planning—her ability to see over a dozen crafts workshops in eight days.
  • Japan’s concept of “intangible heritage” and “living national treasures” is discussed as a model for valuing everyday material culture.

The Meaning of Souvenirs & Material Culture

• Objects as Memory and Connection
  • Both Needleman and Prior delight in small souvenirs imbued with personal and cultural meaning—figurines, baskets, fan, or flowers as reminders of lived experience and connection.
  • The power of festivals and folk traditions in making cultures come alive.

Travel as a Lens: Passion and Comfort

• Frameworks for Deeper Travel
  • Discussing how approaching destinations through a "lens" (gardening, basketry, belief, ritual, festival) transforms how one experiences a culture.
    • "If you study anything deep enough, you can learn about a place." —Deborah [43:23]
  • The importance of having a purpose or interest when traveling, to give direction or comfort, especially when stepping out of one's comfort zone.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On escaping the "fashion bubble":

  • "I really didn't like the idea of being told where to go and when to be somewhere." —Deborah [03:14]

• On hands-on craft communities:

  • "There's something really beautiful about a bunch of strangers coming together and working on something and learning something at the same time and making something." —Deborah [05:03]

• On basketry’s deep connection to place:

  • "Basketry is always about a particular place...if I'm showing baskets in Venice, they should be connected to Venice." —Deborah [12:33]

• On tangible heritage in Japan:

  • "Dedication to craft in Japan is like nothing I've ever seen..." —Deborah [33:15]

• On travel mishaps:

  • "Those kind of disasters are better in retrospect...they make for good stories." —Deborah [28:01]

• On bringing home meaning:

  • "Those things imbue so much meaning and to me that's really important. I like the bring back little knickknacks. That's what I think." —David [36:15]

• On travel and the lens of passion:

  • "Having a particular interest and bringing that into a place is such a fantastic way to connect to a place in a way that you wouldn't really do otherwise." —Deborah [20:49]

• On travel discomfort and purpose:

  • "For me, I always dread a trip right before I go and then I'm never happier than when I'm somewhere and then I crash when I come home. But I think it just doesn't matter what the thing is ... giving yourself at least for a certain type of personality a purpose is so helpful." —Deborah [44:13]

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Timestamps of Major Segments

• Deborah's Editorial Background and Last Fashion Week: [00:06–03:48]
• Leaving Fashion for Folk Craft and Folk School Experience: [03:49–08:06]
• The Thread of Daily Beauty in Editorial and Craft: [05:57–08:06]
• Nature, Utility, Daily Beauty Discussion: [08:06–09:16]
• Venice: Natural Environment, Basketry Project: [09:16–15:00]
• Return to Morocco: Researching Berber Basketry: [15:01–19:43]
• Joy of Souvenirs and Meaningful Objects: [36:01–37:36]
• Japan: Crafts, Ritual, Tangible Heritage: [29:22–34:50]
• The Power (and Comedy) of Travel Mishaps: [25:08–28:08]
• Philosophy of Travel 'Through a Lens': [43:23–46:19]
• Lightning Round: Favorites, Discomforts, Most at Home: [50:05–54:45]
• Reflections on Time, Aging, and Travel’s Meaning: [56:01–56:40]

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Tone & Style

The episode is candid, warm, and gently humorous, full of curiosity and affection between host and guest. Their shared admiration for crafts, genuine connections with people, and their delight in small, meaningful details is palpable. Both speakers value authenticity over perfection—whether in travel experiences or in the things they make and collect.

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Concluding Thoughts

Deborah Needleman’s journey demonstrates how stepping away from conventional notions of glamour can lead to deeper fulfillment through hands-on creativity, ongoing learning, and soulful connection to place. This episode encourages listeners to travel through a personal lens—whether basketry, food, gardening, or festivals—as a way to become at home in the world and find beauty in everyday acts.

Transcript

[A]

Pushkin. After the highest profile of careers shaping contemporary culture around her, Deborah Needleman is now part of a tradition as old as time itself. As one of her generation's most influential and often intimidating editors for founding Domino, editing WSJ magazine and then t the New York Times Style magazine, Deborah's impeccable instincts and strong convictions influenced how we define excellence, see beauty and perceived taste. But at the height of her power, she left, starting again as a student of weaving, making baskets upstate, not glossy magazines in Manhattan. It's an improbable story, but one that is less surprising when you understand that she's always been more inspired by the beauty and dignity of the daily practices of people and places around the world. Whether it's to meet gardeners in England, weavers of textiles in India, broom makers in Japan, Deborah now travels using a project or the making of an object as a way to comprehend cultures more deeply. She now approaches the world as an enthusiastic, curious apprentice. But she cannot help becoming a master at whatever she puts her mind and hand to. Here's my conversation with my mentor and friend, Deborah Needleman. Welcome, Deborah, to traveling through. I was thinking before you came on here that, you know, we're friends, obviously, and we have a lot in common, but one of the things that we don't have in common is that I was not the editor in chief of tea, the New York Times style magazine.

[B]

You wrote for it.

[A]

Yeah, I did, but like writer number 257 of importance. But I wanted to ask you because you've had dramatic life pivots in terms of your work and interests, and it's always evolved. What was the last trip that, that you did or took as editor in chief?

[B]

Probably it was going to the fashion shows. So that's sort of a month of travel. New York, London, Milan, Paris. So being away from home and being in that little fashion bubble for a month, very sort of luxurious travel. What would be considered luxurious travel?

[A]

And did you get tired of doing that after what, five years of being away for like, what, it's almost two months a year basically, at least?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. To say I was tired of it is euphemistic for how I felt about it. I hated it.

[A]

Really? What was it kind of, what was the whole situation like? Paint a little bit picture.

[B]

You know, I think for many people, going to fashion shows sounds like a really sort of glamorous thing, but I think like a lot of so called glamorous things, when you are really involved in them, they're not that glamorous, but it Was incredibly luxurious travel. We stayed in really fancy hotels, but you're in a little bubble. Being driven around and, you know, full day of fashion shows is about getting in and out of a car, being in terrible traffic, sitting on a hard bench, waiting for a show to start for half an hour, and then the show's about seven minutes, and then 5,000 people trying to get out one door and doing it again and again and then going out at night. So I don't know. For me, it just. I really didn't like the idea of being told where to go and when to be somewhere.

[A]

I know you well and I know that you're actually kind of a homebody in a way, and you're very independent and like to work with your hands and like to kind of have a solitary life. So I imagine that, you know, you left that job pretty, like, immediately and then went to explore another interest, which was broom making, right?

[B]

Weirdly, yes. I mean, I had never really worked with my hands, and that was the idea. And I had never really been solitary. And I think being in so many social situations in that job made me long to be alone and to learn to work in a different way. I quit my job with this idea, sort of almost out of nowhere, of becoming a basket weaver. And I was not, like a crafty person. I had never done anything with my hands. And I'd always sort of lived in my head as a writer and editor, so. So in a way, it was a big break. Someone had told me about this thing called folk schools. And the best one in America is the oldest one called the John C. Campbell Folk School in Appalachia. And they didn't have a basket weaving class. When I had decided to quit my job, I decided I wanted to learn to become a basket weaver. But they had a broom making class. And I thought, well, that's natural fibers, so I'll take that. It was the week of the Paris fashion shows that I was. You know, instead of being at the Bristol Hotel and being driven around in a black Mercedes, I was at this place where the morning. The morning started with this thing called, like, Morning Song, where someone would sing and play the fiddle and tell stories, and there was clog dancing. And it was just this whole experience of just learning to work with your hands. And I mean, it just couldn't have been farther away from where I would have been that week otherwise. And it was incredible. I just loved the idea of meeting these people I never would have met before. And there is something about, like, you know, you hear about like quilting circles. There is something really beautiful about a bunch of strangers coming together and working on something and learning something at the same time and making something. And there's this kind of intimacy that I realized you can have with strangers. And it doesn't mean that, you know, you're best friends with them for life, but there is a real connection, and that was something I was really missing. There's not a lot of real connection in the fashion bubble.

[A]

Was there a story that you commissioned then? Like, is it cumulative? Because I know what I loved about, like, your tea or, you know, even back in Domino, that was, like, the daily utilitarian thing of people making things that were beautiful. Like, there was a thread through the magazines that you edited. Like, is there a particularly memorable story?

[B]

I think you're totally right. I mean, I think what I always tried to do as a magazine editor was find people that I thought were doing beautiful, interesting, original things and then sharing that and how they worked and how they thought. And the basket weaving thing did grow out of a story. We were doing a piece on a store that was opening in Mayfair in London called Craftsman of the New Craftsmen, and it was all craftspeople from around the British Isles, and we were trying to choose which of the, you know, I don't know, 40 artisans they worked with to feature. And I watched a short video of a basket weaver in Sussex in Lewis called Ann Maria Sullivan. And it was probably two minutes, and I was sitting in my office at the New York Times in my little, like, box of an office, and you saw her going out into the willow field in the winter, all bundled up to harvest her willow, and then bringing it back to her beautiful little wood studio and making on the floor, barefoot. And I just thought, that's it. That's what I want. It turned out she lived right next to a friend of mine, so we went and took a class with her. But it was like a weird kind of aha moment. And in one way, it seemed like a crazy break, a huge break. But in another way, I've always been a gardener. I had been a garden writer. And I think those jobs that I had, I feel really grateful to have had those jobs. And I loved them. Being an editor of a magazine, I didn't like all the peripheral stuff, but I loved being in the office making a magazine. And, in fact, we always called it, like, making a magazine. It was like, a thing we made each month. It wasn't. Anyway, there is a through line of, as you say, from the magazine. I really like to Highlight simple things that are beautiful and useful.

[A]

Well, one of the things I think that we have in common as well is like, you know, I come from the food perspective. I'm really interested in. Not that I'm a farmer, but I'm really interested in farming and transformation of, like, the natural world by product and then how that embodies the environment and the tradition and, like, what people have at hand.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I feel like that's everything. I feel like you just sort of nailed it. It's, you know, about the ways. One which we're connected to the land, dependent on the land, and all that the land can do for us if we are respectful of its properties. Whether that's like, you know, making food, making incredible food or baskets. I mean, we're so, you know, historically connected to the land and the way we live now, and especially the way I was living as a magazine editor, is you're very separate from it. It's a thing like, oh, you make a beautiful garden or you go on holiday. If your livelihood comes from the land, you have a natural respect for it. And I think that's true whether it's food or basketry or, you know, whatever it is, pottery.

[A]

We're in New York, which is, like, the most urban of all urban landscapes. But, you know, another one like that you could think is not urban, but it's, like, totally built environment is Venice. Right. I wanted to jump forward to a month that you spent in Venice last year, just talking about, like, the built environment, the natural environment. And, like, I was completely fascinated about this, like, basketry project that you were working on. So I'd love you to talk about a little bit the month that you spent there.

[B]

I mean, I think just. I think what you were getting at first is we think of Venice as this place of glorious art and architecture, unbelievable alleys and the canals and no cars, and we're taking a boat everywhere. But we do think of it as a built environment, which, you know, it is, but what it really is is a natural environment and a completely unique one. And the city is wholly dependent on the lago from which it rises. And I think the lagoon is sort of overlooked, or again, as we were talking about before, seen as this sort of beautiful scenery outside of Venice. But the connection between Venice as a sort of urban place and the water is completely symbiotic. And, you know, I mean, it's why Venice floods. And so much has been done to the lagoon in terms of changing the direction, making it deeper so the big boats can come through and it's deeply affected the plants there. I'll get to basketry in a second. But it's deeply affected the plants there which, you know, are really diminishing. And they were the things in part that kept the water from rising. So now there's this sort of artificial mose thing that like this big concrete thing that can come up to stop it from flooding, which works, but it's not helping the problem. And there's an amazing organization called We Are Here Venice.

[A]

But anyways, zoom around on little boats stopping the cruise ships.

[B]

Jane Demosthene radicals who founded it sort of single handedly got rid of the cruise ships which were destroying everything because they're just. I mean, it's. I guess my point is that Venice is a very fragile ecosystem. My husband and I decided we're older, the children are gone, we can work remotely. Why don't we go live somewhere for a month that, you know, that you. Kind of place that you can't really get to the heart of by visiting,

[A]

you know, I didn't know.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Unless you're, you know, to see how it works day to day. And you know, Venice is an incredibly hard place to actually live or you know, to go to the dry cleaner

[A]

to bring furniture, Amazon delivery.

[B]

It's. It's insane. It's a really, really difficult place to live in a way. But anyway, so we had this idea and simultaneously I had been asked to do a show of my baskets at a gallery called Casa Yali that's owned by Rosie Kahan, who is a glass designer and has a business called Yali Glass. And it's right outside. Initially I just thought, well, I'll make these baskets from the willow, you know, that's local to me.

[A]

In your home upstate?

[B]

Yes, upstate I grow a little willow. And I have a willow farmer across the river who grows for me. Because I decided I didn't actually want to be a farmer. So I just thought, I'll show these baskets that I've made in New York. And as soon as I got to Venice, I realized that was a crazy idea because basketry is always about a particular place. And I thought if I'm showing baskets in Venice, they should be connected to Venice, to its landscape, to its plants, and to the history of basketry in Venice. And as you know, I'm obsessed with research. I love researching things. So I thought, well, I'm here for a month. And Rosie said you can use this gallery space. It's empty as a sort of residency. And so I started to research Venetian Baskets. And there was no information. I mean, in general, baskets are sort of the bottom of the barrel in terms of craft. And in a place like Italy and Venice in particular, there's so much incredible high culture that no one was bothering to think about, you know, preserving the velvet and glass. Yeah, exactly. The damage. Yeah. They weren't like, let's save the baskets. So I couldn't find any information. So I started to research through paintings. Tintoretto and Canaletto. And it was. And as we'll probably talk about later, the way I really like to travel is to have a way into a place. And so this was like the perfect storm. It's just the dream where I could research basketry through art. And it gave me a way to kind of make my way through the churches and museums of.

[A]

But did you. How did you know whichever, like church or museum to even start in the

[B]

beginning, I just went for like, you know, it's just a way to, to look at everything and just start picking

[A]

out the baskets and baskets like a motif through all of the. All of that art. Like in general, I mean, it's like

[B]

when there's, you know, it's not in a kind of royal painting or necessarily a religious painting, but paintings that are about everyday life.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And you start seeing the same basket over and over again. So that was one half of it and the other half was, okay, I want to use the plants here. And that's when Jane de Masto took me into the lagoon and we started. You know, she works. She's a biologist. She works with all kinds of scientists and botanists tracking the plant life there. And I realized how diminished everything was and that plants that had been natural and native to the wetlands. And it's sort of a swampy, you know, it goes from land to kind of silt and then underwater that the water had just become so over salinated that they didn't exist anymore.

[A]

It's interesting that like there are really interesting people returning to the city. Because I feel like we're talking 10 years ago. It was like, okay, that is a city set to die stone, set in amber.

[B]

All the young people were leaving.

[A]

Exactly. Why is it now, do you think that there's like a return for one?

[B]

It's one of the most spectacular, beautiful

[A]

places, the most beautiful city in the world.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, and there's nothing like it anywhere in the world. But I think that people are starting to feel a real responsibility to it. And just the beauty of it is drawing people back. But there is a really interesting Group of people living there now, both local and kind of expats.

[A]

We're almost kind of going back in, you know, leaping forward. We're not starting at the beginning of your. Of your travels, which is, you know, it's not chronological, but you've just come back from Morocco, which is like the next evolution of the basket kind of project. Can you tell me a little bit about this trip?

[B]

So I've been asked by a friend of ours to do a show on Moroccan basketry, Berber basketry at the YSL Museum in Marrakech. Basically, what we see in the souk is kind of, in one way, it's the death of Moroccan basketry because they're objects that are completely made for us as tourists. But on the other hand, it's a way that the tradition is still living because there is a market for it. But the Berbers, or Amazigh as they preferred to be called, are the sort of indigenous, nomadic, semi nomadic tribes that have been in Morocco since, you know, before the Arabs, before the Spanish, before the French, everyone. And what I was hoping to find, and did find are these pockets of places where people are still making for themselves and for their own use.

[A]

Is it in the south or the northwest?

[B]

Both. I was in the north, in the reef. We took a really incredible road trip from the kind of Atlantic side, the Tangier side, over the reef mountains to the Mediterranean side. It was such a fun week because I got to sort of indulge in all my kind of research fantasies of like, going into the homes of collectors, going into archives. I love an archive.

[A]

You know, it's funny because, like, you're just talking about doing a road trip in Morocco, but I guess people don't really realize because they go to Marrakech or maybe they transfer through Casablanca, maybe Fez Tangier, let's say they usually fly between those things. But actually, Morocco is an incredible road trip country.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And even, you know, no one would think really, oh, I'm going to be my own driver in this.

[B]

No, I don't. That would be. Probably be hard. I don't know that you could.

[A]

Well, I think it's fun.

[B]

Yeah, I guess obviously you could.

[A]

I think it'd be. It's a fun adventure also because it's like wildly different landscapes and I think, unbelievable idea of what it is. You know, you can go up into the Atlas Mountains. I remember going once and like it was in the spring and, you know, there's these just like wedge valleys full of roses, right?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Incredible. And then another time it's like aproposum,

[B]

or then it's a rocky, arid landscape, or then it's a pine forest. But the views and the expanse and the space.

[A]

Well, the other thing as well is like, some parts you can go there and you're like, you feel like you're in southern Italy in a wine region. It's the most hilarious thing because, you know, you're not supposed to drink alcohol there, which, of course, but there's like a rose that everyone drinks. Right. And I went and visited or talked to the winemaker about the Moroccan wine and actually not horrible. Really. Look, it's a daily kind of thing, but, you know, you think that it's, you know, they're not wine producers. But then I asked the guy, okay, so how many bottles are you doing? And it was like, I think it would be 10,000 or something. And he said, two million. And what? Who's buying that export? I've never had Moroccan wine at a restaurant in, you know, New York or da, da, da. And he said, I said, how many bottles then are you exporting in a country where alcohol's banned? And he was like, none.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Anyway, it's just to say that, like,

[B]

wait, but alcohol's not banned?

[A]

Not banned, but you're not supposed to.

[B]

Well, I mean, there's a, you know, there's a mix of populations there, so.

[A]

For sure, for sure. I just mean that it's like you don't think of it as a wine.

[B]

It's not Ireland or it's not. It's not Ireland where everyone's drunk, or France where there's great wine.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. I shouldn't say that, but it's just that it's not like a place necessarily, you think, as a wine making region. And I think, like, sometimes people have a view of Morocco as being one

[B]

kind of thing, but I think that's the thing. I mean, that's, you know, not to just tout your business, but that is what you do. And that is how I like to travel, where you're finding different ways into a place and it's high and it's low and it's, you know, the great fancy hotel and also a shack somewhere on the beach. And Morocco is, you know, rich with that. And I think that's hard for people to find on their own.

[A]

You know, when you're seeing someone on a trip and they're like posting on Instagram, that's one of the actual, you know, there's a lot of problems with like traveling and tourism and Social media. But at the same time, like when you see someone on a trip, which I was looking at your trip because you don't post that often and it's that feeling that someone's on fire in curiosity, I kind of like get super excited and I was like thrilled to talk to you about that particular trip.

[B]

I did feel on fire because it was a kind of trip that was like firing all my synapses of like going into beautiful houses, going into museums, meeting weavers. And then, I mean, I'll tell you what I thought was sort of magical for me. But obviously I had a kind of privileged access and in that I had this itinerary worked out. We had researched things. I had, you know, an Arabic speaking translator from the museum who is also just a sort of really smart, wonderful person. And the driver was great. But I think, you know, for all of us, even if we go to a place without that kind of access, having a particular interest and bringing that interest of yours into a place is such a fantastic way to kind of connect to a place in a way that you wouldn't really do otherwise. On this sort of Morocco trip, like you're talking about, and whether it's, you know, art or craft or music, whatever food, whatever your thing is, it just allows you to travel through a place and get to know it better and get to know the people.

[A]

Exactly. It's like the crack in the door that you just have to push on and then you ask to be invited into these people that are both.

[B]

I mean, if someone, if you're interested in food and someone else there is interested in food, they're thrilled to meet you and yes, exactly. It's the door opens and then they're like, you need to talk to this person or go to this place.

[A]

Because it's a deeper layer than like, oh, I'm fascinated by your culture and your sights in your city, if that makes sense. You go. Then like you plug into someone's like minded passion or respect. And that's also like when all the doors just swing open. I remember we went on a trip to gather. Been on a few trips together, but the iconic one was in textiles in India. Right. So, you know, after you'd left T, I kind of wrote a very earnest letter to you because, you know, I was like my favorite editor. I just loved your point of view and admired the magazines that you created. So I wrote you and I was like starting the business and I said, hey, I don't know how I even presumed that this could possibly be possible, but Would you be interested in like exploring Indian textiles with me? And so you and I went on a research trip first.

[B]

Did we?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, we did. Yeah.

[B]

We didn't.

[A]

No, we.

[B]

We did because we went.

[A]

Yes, we did. We did it beforehand. I'm telling you, we did.

[B]

I have a really bad memory.

[A]

No, we did, 100%. So we went and arrived in Diwali in Rajasthan and then we went to Bengal.

[B]

David, I have to mention that. So. So you asked me to co lead this, this kind of craft textile trip to India with you and you know, you've never asked me again. It was kind of a disaster.

[A]

It was not. You know what? Well, if you ask anyone that came with us, it's, you know, our mutual friend said it's like still the best trip that she's ever done.

[B]

So it was, it made me so stressed out. It made me realize I could never do your job. The stress of wanting everything to be perfect.

[A]

Well, yeah, of course. But you know, the other thing is.

[B]

Which is hard in India.

[A]

Well, for sure we can talk about how we almost burned down Calcutta a little bit later, but just on that point, like I'm on so Many dozens of WhatsApp groups now of people that fall in love with each other and on a trip. Yes, exactly. I remember my colleagues at Conde Nastraveler. You know, I was a bit of a lone wolf travel writer. I just like popped off and did my thing and came in every so often for the pitch meetings. But yeah, it's like if you're an editor at large, as you well know, it just means they want you out of the office. Don't bother me at large. No one wants to see. See, when I told them I was starting this business because it really started in India actually on a group trip because I thought, oh, actually India is such a place. And they plug into this like, not exaggerated, it's real, but exaggerated sense. You know, it's, it's.

[B]

So you created such beautiful experiences there. I mean, I think, you know, sometimes you describe your business as a magazine story brought into life and I think that was what you created. When did you send thousands of candles?

[A]

Well, I mean, from you that's a big compliment, but yeah. We were in a place in Maheshwar. There's an extraordinary hotel, maybe like one of the defining hotels of like what I'm. Why I'm interested in the way that's

[B]

personal, beautiful, grounded in. The place couldn't be anywhere else than where it is.

[A]

Exactly. Kind of every corner you go around is sort Of Min Hog era World of Interiors. No. And so, you know, one of the things that they do is they take people out on the boat at dusk and then put candles through. And so it's almost like you're floating candles. But of course, like, I wanted to

[B]

do it, you know, 10,000 candles in

[A]

that direction on leaves as well. So like, not like some giant waste that's going to be hitting down the.

[B]

So they could be collected afterwards.

[A]

Well, no, they just like the candles go out and then the leaves just, you know, become part of the river. I think it's just important to say that, in fact, it was someone else that that kind of said to me, berated me the first time that I did that. And I was like, on leaves actually biodegradable. Anyway, that's as an aside. But, you know, sometimes you can do these kind of, I think one or two of the dinners that you can create, because candles are so. And light is so important. And we went during the festival of Lights, which is Diwali, which has become a lot about fireworks, but as much about candles, too. And I remember actually we were in Calcutta, and sometimes I have like, an exaggerated sense of like, what I want a dinner or thing to be. And so I was thinking, Calcutta?

[B]

Yeah, that decrepit colonial era club.

[A]

Exactly. Because it just doesn't exist anymore. But I was setting up the dinner. You know, all the guests were coming later, and Deborah was coming later, too. What had happened is there'd been, like a national shortage of, you know, wax candles. Beautiful, like safe wax candles, let's say.

[B]

I just remember you coming to me and saying, you know, there's no candles in India right now. And I was literally like, what the fuck?

[A]

It's true. We had to go.

[B]

I was like, come on, you can find candles in India.

[A]

I mean. Exactly. And so we send people out in every conceivable direction to find them. Anyway, they came back with candles, all great. So I'm, you know, setting up the dinner and everyone's about to arrive and start lighting the candles. And all of a sudden they kind of melt very, very quickly. And then they're starting to kind of flame. And it turns out they're paraffin candles. The ones that are, like, have been illegal for decades elsewhere.

[B]

And so starting to light the tablecloths.

[A]

Exactly. And there starts to be, like, fire in this wood decrepit kind of gentleman's club.

[B]

And again, I didn't understand. I was like, why is no one blowing out the candles? We're starting a huge fire here. Why Are all these people just standing around? So I started going and like blowing out the candles, not understanding that they were paraffin. And you blow on them and like the hot liquid was just all over. I was like scalded.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. So she has a giant burn and I'm like, we're at the end of the thing, the guests are arriving. And so they all arrive. And then of course the food was disaster because it was like gray English food, nothing to do with Indian thing. But it ended to be like such a comedy of errors that it was the perfect ending.

[B]

Although I think those kind of disasters were, are better in retrospect. They make for good stories, even though if they're really stressful.

[A]

Well, of course. But the, the last image that I remember of that night with Deborah was her running water in the. The bathroom spilling this with a bird smoking a cigarette. It was kind of amazing.

[B]

Thank God you've never asked me to do that again.

[A]

No, no, no. Anytime.

[B]

No, no, no reason you haven't. It stresses me.

[A]

This episode of Traveling through is sponsored by Capital One. Capital One cardholders are passionate about unforgettable experiences. Together we partner to connect these curious travelers to world cultures through expert guided journeys. From the peaks of Machu Picchu to the grand architecture of Vienna, these once in a lifetime trips take you somewhere truly off the beaten path. Through Capital One entertainment, eligible cardholders can book exclusive experiences and so much more, all while earning elevated rewards. Saver card holders earn 8% cash back and Venture X earns 5x miles. Thanks to Capital One, your dream getaway is one step closer. After you left the magazine, you started to do a column for Tea called Material Culture. And I think that's kind of the first time we had any kind of connection around actually travel. We helped you with a trip in Japan. Is there things that like you've taken from Japanese institution?

[B]

I think probably this is how I really got into researching around craft and traveling to places, using craft as a way into a place. So Japan was the first trip and I was doing a story on a Katazomi indigo dyer. So it's a kind of stencil on fabric and indigo. And I thought, like, I'm going to Japan for the first time. I've never been there. You know, my assignment is just this one thing, but I'd like to get as much out of Japan as I can. And so I appealed to you and worked with people that you know on your team that helped me plan an entire itinerary. It was really, really intense of meeting craftspeople all over going to a pottery village, woodworkers, metal workers. Because of working with your team, I think I probably saw, you know, 15 or 16 workshops craftspeople in eight days. Which I think is why people think I know a country better than I do. Why it's like I'd been to India once and you thought like, maybe I could co. Lead a. A trip there with you is because I go so hard. Yes, Your researcher and I like to go.

[A]

I think Japan is like, I mean, interesting for a million reasons, but like, I wonder if it's the only, only country where you know that what craft is revered. Well, exactly is exactly what I was going to say is they're national treasures. Right.

[B]

It's like tangible heritage.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

There's all these ideas that. But it's so hard to imagine us having an America where we, you know, celebrate an idea of an intangible heritage.

[A]

I mean, the last time I went to Japan was I think in August. And so I went to Fukushima actually, and I went to see one of the oldest bonsai growers makers.

[B]

Clippers.

[A]

Clippers. You know, I was fascinated by that. But I mean it. It completely blew my mind. And what this particular bonsai maker is inspired initially by the silver pine that grows, I mean, the most Japanese thing in the whole world that grows on the top of the volcano. The conditions of us, of certain bonsai, of that particular silver pine is that they can only sell it at like 80 years age. So it's bridging generation, generation and generation.

[B]

So if someone's working on something that they will never cecil. But maybe working on something that somebody else started. Yeah, the feeling. I mean, that's another thing that's so amazing about Japan is this sense of ancestors and generational connection, for lack of a better word. I feel like they really feel like a lot of the craftspeople really feel all the preceding generations that led up to their doing what they're doing.

[A]

Yeah. And you know, one of the things that is on one side, the most exciting thing about what we do and what we're both interested in is when and it's why Material culture, the column that you did, is such a brilliant name. The thing that excites me is living culture in those things.

[B]

And a lot of times it's not the high culture, it's folk culture or

[A]

popular culture for sure, or natural transformation. I feel really privileged that we're able to do this specific thing. They gave me and Vit, my boyfriend, a seedling to fashion.

[B]

How quickly did you kill It.

[A]

Well, I was so terrible. I mean.

[B]

Or get arrested on your way home.

[A]

Deborah knows Vita is like, he's an architect and incredibly thoughtful and just, like, precision. Totally.

[B]

You probably stuffed it in the bar,

[A]

snapped one of the branches. Right. But with the wire. So I don't know. Mine is going to be really wacky. But, you know, they said to us, come back in a few years. I mean, that was, like, quite moving.

[B]

Yeah. No, the dedication to craft in Japan is like nothing I've ever seen. I mean, so this dyer, I went to see this. I mean, he made all his own stencils based on, like, 17th century stencils. And he had, you know, an indigo dye vat in the backyard. And he'd been doing his craft for, I don't know, 30 or 40 years. Didn't feel he was a master and was so connected to his dye vat, he, you know, he couldn't go to his son's wedding because with these dye vats, you have to watch the fire and make sure the temperature and mix the indigo. So, I mean, his life, he was just so dedicated that, you know, I think probably personal parts of his life really suffered.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, exactly the same things. These bonsai guys, they can't leave that there. Yeah, they cannot leave. And also, I mean, on the side, they're getting robbed occasionally. So now they have these big fences and. Oh, God, that was depressing to hear. But, you know, just the idea that it's alive in that way. Yeah. And, you know, we had a very privileged access, but sometimes travel, and when you open that door and you're curious and you offer that experience, even if it's a rare experience, we were contributing to, presuming it a side income that, you know, maybe plugs the hole of the theft or continues to be able to allow them to have some person when it's too hot to take in those gigantic bonsai like, inside, because otherwise they can't do it.

[B]

What I was sort of alluding to with these, the Berber baskets, it's like we romanticize craft and folk culture a lot of the time, and we want it to be a certain way. But the fact that basket weavers in, say, Morocco can earn a living basket weaving, even though they're making drek for the souk, they're making, like, you know, fake Hermes Birkin bags out of esparto grass or rush or palm. It's alive. It's not how, you know, we romanticize it necessarily. It's not perfect.

[A]

Do you bring back styles of baskets into Your practice and then. Or do you have. Are they usually from a particular tradition?

[B]

Most of my work, the things that I make are from sort of European tradition, France, Spain, British Isles. But I bring back. I mean, it's sort of a way, you know, that I travel is I bring back baskets and that are done in different techniques and want to make everything, which is another reason I'm not really good. Because every beautiful thing that I see, I want to try and figure it out and. And make it.

[A]

I love a kind of souvenir somehow. I like little figurines and Figurine you stole from. Yeah, well, exactly. I mean, I wasn't going to tell that story, but you can maybe see that little camel in the back there I really wanted. Yeah, exactly. Our first fight was actually about this. There's not been so many, actually. Sometimes you just. Those things imbue so much meaning and to me that's really important. And I like the bring back little knickknacks. That's what I think.

[B]

So it's an amazing little object in itself. It reminds you of the trip and it reminds you of stealing it out from under.

[A]

Well, the other footage, the thing is

[B]

that you winning a fight.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

The other animal experience that we shared was when we were in the Natural History Museum of Calcutta, which if anyone has a chance to go. I mean, I love a decrepit place that like was glorious and grand and at another time.

[A]

And this makes the old, old Egyptian Museum look like moma for example.

[B]

It's so like the scale of it is grand, the beautiful wood built ins, but, you know, no money to keep it up. And I just remember there being this taxidermied. I don't even know what kind of an animal.

[A]

A lynx, maybe. A lynx, like a Himalayan mountain lion or something along those lines.

[B]

It must have been like before it was shot, it like had just gone mad and so its eyes were bugging out and it just was like the most insane piece of taxidermy. And for a long time we sent it back and forth of like as a meme, sort of as like movie

[A]

the end of the day. Exactly. I mean, you did have a second degree burn, I have to say. So. Fair enough. I wanted to ask you, what place are you most intrigued to travel to? What is piquing your interest right now?

[B]

Well, I'm, you know, deep in this Morocco moment.

[A]

I've never been somewhere that you've never been.

[B]

I've never been to Switzerland and I'm sort of intrigued by the architecture of those chalets. And the all wood paneled interiors.

[A]

Well, there's one place that I'd love to return with you because we had a very special trip there. And I'm like hiding my little souvenir in here with my fan because it was very propped. And look at this. It looks like I'm going to a circuit party. But anyway, I haven't. I haven't had a big clacky fan at a circuit party, but I do have Spanish friends and one of my favorite places.

[B]

That was an amazing trip. It was from Spain to the Feria,

[A]

the Fair of April. And that's like, so beautiful. It's like that place where costume and culture come alive. Like, it's like, interesting because there's not artifice there. Somehow. It's very exaggerated. And it's a live culture. It's like. That's the thing that I get super excited about. And I love that trip, you know, and it's also like, I've been back a number of times. I love that. As a prior trip.

[B]

Yes. We did one with you. Love a festival.

[A]

I love a festival because it is

[B]

when, like, a place comes alive.

[A]

Yeah. It's carnival.

[B]

I mean, in general, I shy away from places during those times because I'm an hedonic. I don't know. Because I don't like to have that much fun. I don't like to lose myself that way.

[A]

No. But I think, you know, when they are still real and there isn't like a Ferris wheel. Yeah. Like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

On top of the festival, like, that is the culture at its most.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, even a place like harbor island, where we used to go with the children during Junkanoo, the big parade, like, it was an amazing thing for the children to be. To get immersed in a place like that and to see the spirit of a place.

[A]

No, for sure. I mean, the county fair, like, it's got something. There's dignity to it, for sure. And if you can plug into that, it's the doorway in with people. It's like, I think that people should travel for that. I understand that sometimes they're completely rammed by people, but if you can figure out a way. I've never been to carnival in Kyoto, but I am desperate to do. Really? Yeah, absolutely. I really want to do that. But, you know, I returned and I. I wanted to talk to you about Andalusia, because the last time I. I went back. You remember the flowers that we bought in. You know, because you've always got. You've got the flamenco dress, but giant

[B]

flower the giant flower.

[A]

Anyway, we went to like polyester land because no one's going to be. I didn't want to spend €5,000 on those things. But honestly, you buy two or three dresses in your life if you're a woman like that, that are really expensive. It's like your wedding dress, but there are all the accessories. And I bought one of the flowers because it kind of just remind me of the trip. But it's made entirely of feathers.

[B]

Oh, that's amazing.

[A]

Seriously beautiful. Oh, it's right under the.

[B]

Oh, that thing we bought in. Was that Barcelona?

[A]

No, no, no, that was in Seville. Exactly. That's the exfolto. So it's like the Moorish heads. Have you ever been to the Santa Fe Folk Museum?

[B]

Oh, yeah. And to the Folk Art Festival once a year in the summer, in July, where they bring in craftspeople from, I don't know, 90 or 100 different countries. It's incredible.

[A]

I was interested in Santa Fe. Like, I'm interested in New Orleans in the sense that, like, it's got something.

[B]

Something like America. We haven't talked about America much.

[A]

Well, yeah, I mean.

[B]

I mean, Santa Fe is a completely sort of sui generis place as. What was the place you just met? Oh, New Orleans. Like, there's nothing like it. I mean, it's like it's so quite. It's really foreign. Has such a sort of different culture.

[A]

Well, it's a mix of culture that is. It's. It's the best of all of them. And you know, Santa Fe, I knew that. That. But I didn't really understand it. What's the room of folk miniatures? It's.

[B]

Oh, Alexander Gerard.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Was a fantastic artist. Architect. I think it was an architect.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Maybe not.

[A]

And he had. Alexander Girard has.

[B]

Jonathan Adler is very inspired by Alexander Gerard. Oh, I didn't see like the sort of childlike and humorous and.

[A]

Yeah. And in that room in the Folk Museum, it's sort of a land of miniatures. It's like it's a small world. And that kind of little miniature there is kind of that. But they basically have created all of these worlds of folk art figurines from all around the world. And I think, you know, I literally cried when I went into that because it is like a. It's a small world. It's extraordinary. I mean, that's one of the most, for me, amazing museums, not only in the United States, but in the world. Unreal. And if you're.

[B]

And kind of little known.

[A]

Yeah, that's the thing. It's like that museum hill in Santa Fe is quite extraordinary. I think it's one of the more interesting places to travel to.

[B]

Yeah. And they've got opera in Santa Fe.

[A]

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, exactly. And there's also a really amazing, bizarrely Japanese ryokan there.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yes. It's called 10,000 waves and it's in the hills of Santa Fe and it's surrounded by aspen trees. So if you go in the fall, it's like completely yellow. Yellow. And you're kind of bathing there. It's quite an amazing space. I mean Santa Fe is just super weird, right? Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And then the whole landscape around Abiqui, around where Georgia o' Keeffe was. These sort of white rocks.

[A]

No, no. Incredible. If you were to distill down to one thing. I know that's, that's difficult, but what is the. That doorway in for you when you're going to destinations or travel?

[B]

I mean for me now it's basketry and craft. It used to be gardens, but I sort of learned this from my mother in law, my husband's mother, who was this kind of powerful, brave, kooky woman, but also a homebody and hated to travel. And so she just started this thing of collecting egg cups because you know, they were small and you could pocket them when you travel. But it was like almost like a sense of security. It gave her like a purpose when she traveled. I'm not sure that she, you know, really could learn about different places through their egg cups. Maybe you can, I think if you study anything deep enough, you know. And she ended up with, I don't know, 10,000 egg cups. It was insane.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

But it was for her, the way for her to feel comfortable. Because I think travel can be scary, particularly about the kind of travel you're talking about. Not where you're going from fancy hotel to fancy hotel in a chauffeur driven car, but where you're trying to really connect with people. It's a much more intense experience and can be like. For me, I always dread a trip right before I go and then I'm never happier than when I'm somewhere and then I crash when I come home. But I think it just doesn't matter what the thing is. It can be something as stupid as egg cups. But I think giving yourself at least for a certain type of personality, for me it really, really is helpful. So then I'm, you know, moving through a museum. You know, you can't take in a whole museum. It's overwhelming. But if you're looking for one particular thing or one period that you're interested in.

[A]

I mean, it's somewhat. The overarching idea of this show is that you can travel through a particular lens or.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I often think about like India through belief, Japan through ritual, Italy through food, Spain through fiesta celebration, cultural festivals.

[B]

I mean, I mean, I think. And that's a framework that makes sense and a framework that makes sense to you and that you use for your business. And I think also, you know, probably people come to you with their particular passions and you build trips around that. And I just think it's such a nice way to be someplace where maybe you're a little off balance because you're out of your, your comfort zone.

[A]

Well, it's also. You think you're going through that lens and you are. Right.

[B]

But it opens out into different doors,

[A]

you know, and then you start to. It's linked to the food, it's linked to the religion, all of those things. I think it's like if you want to feel at home in the world, to the point of your mother in law, Lois, who by the way, if you want to read an amazing article about her, this is like she's not. You're not kidding. This is an extraordinary woman. Lois Weisberg. You can look it up. Malcolm Gladwell wrote it for the New Yorker.

[B]

But I mean, the idea of that piece was like that she was no one famous. It was like there's a little old lady in Chicago that knows someone, that knows someone that knows you. It was because her kind of mo was connecting people and being this conduit for creative people in different fields. And when you travel, you don't have that power. You're at the mercy. And I think that was the thing. It was like she couldn't be herself in a, a foreign place without like having junk shops to trawl through.

[A]

Right. Well, this has been fun. It's always fun with you. I love having a laugh. But I also love sharing our. Yeah. Passion for the daily beauty of how people transform things. That is just magical.

[B]

Yeah, it is completely magical.

[A]

How does this happen over time that

[B]

you get to, you know, through travel, you get to see things you wouldn't see. And I just remember like Diego Della Valley when I was in my fashion life, always talked about, you know, he would do that. Oh, sorry. He ran Todd's.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

And he's sort of like a sort of Italian businessman mogul. But he would always talk about, you know, the aroma and like his little fingers of. I'm sure. You know, there's probably some thing that that means in Italian gesture, but it's this idea of getting the aroma of a place and it's not necessarily like the fragrance, it's the atmosphere. And a lot of that comes from everyday life and not from necessarily high culture.

[A]

Well, I mean just on the essence of or the smell of. We once did a story which is one of still one of my favorite stories that we ever did called the essence of that. How bad smells like.

[B]

Oh yes.

[A]

Can transport you in not in an entirely bad way.

[B]

Well, all good fragrances are made of bad, you know, of. Of bad.

[A]

Oh really?

[B]

Oh yeah. I think it was like feces extractions. No, seriously, every like beautiful perfume has a kind of nasty something because you know, it's like underarm smell. Anyway, this is going in a different direction.

[A]

It's fine. But is there a place that you, that comes to mind with you that has a bad smell that's like evocative to you?

[B]

New Delhi, like the, you know, the smell of kind of pollution and burning. But I sort of love it the way I love like you know, gasoline smell in a closed garage.

[A]

Right. I mean I always think of like, you know, stale beer on carpet. You know, it's sort of that English pub, Irish thing. Thankfully now or most of the Australian pubs or they always have been like tiles and actually if you're going to have like a big piss up night, it's called a night out on the tiles.

[B]

Oh really? Exactly. I've had a few wet. School bus was really bad. Like loads of children on a rainy day. All humid and stinky.

[A]

But then on the flip side, rain, everything kind of sometimes is the most.

[B]

Like driving through Morocco just now, there was incredible fog and then it rained one night and it was so clear and it was like the citrus were blooming at this time and it just. The smell was divine and we like were clamoring up through wild thyme that smelled so good.

[A]

Or that kind of moment between like Magnolia grandiflora when the rain comes before it turns brown that next morning. It's like the most incredible. Yeah, I can think about that for a few different places. Milan, one of them. Sydney. Anyway, so yeah, thank you.

[B]

We have to stop talking.

[A]

But we don't.

[B]

We can keep talking.

[A]

No, no, no. We have to stop talking now. I'm going to torture you with questions that you have to answer quick answer quickly. Speaking of talking too much.

[B]

Okay, so favorite hotel, Hotel Locarno maybe in Rome. Just a small, not super fancy hotel. The rooms Are beautiful. I like the very sexy, very kind of 19th century romantic. All the decorated differently.

[A]

Right on the Piazza del Popolo.

[B]

Yeah, Right off of it. With a beautiful little garden. Like not a fancy hotel, but just to me, perfect.

[A]

And a huge wisteria over. Unbelievable.

[B]

Yeah. And I like a hotel that has like a proprietor. Right. You know, the owner is present. Yeah.

[A]

Is there a meal or taste that you could you desperate to relive?

[B]

You know, I'm not a foodie like you, but I was in Lisbon for 24 hours last week and someone just directed me to a ceviche place that was so incredible I don't even remember the name of it. But I think most memorable meals are not in super fancy places, at least for me. I like simple food.

[A]

A place that you would always return home. A place that you'd never return.

[B]

I think Varanasi. Although I didn't hate it, it was just, you know, I felt like. So, you know, Varanasi is where people bring their dead loved ones to be burnt on a funeral pyre. It's on the Ganges. There's all these spiritual seekers there. And it's a magnificent place. But it is so foreign and it felt so apocalyptic. Like I don't think I would bring myself to go there. And it was hard to fully process it, but it was magical and spiritual and just like the fog, the boats bringing tons of wood for these funeral pyres. And people are burning and it doesn't smell bad, it's so polluted and yet people are like doing their laundry in it and it comes out sparkling white. Like the whole thing is a mystery. And it just feels like the beginning of humanity and the end of humanity. And it's just like a lot to.

[A]

Again, just a picture of humanity for. Stop.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The first time I went there, at the end of the day, I looked down at my feet and I was wearing two different shoes of entirely different genres.

[B]

Because you were so spiritual, you didn't notice?

[A]

No, no, I'm so. No, but because it is the most overwhelming.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

On the planet.

[B]

I mean, all over India you see cows walking around, but it's like there, the alleys are so tiny. So you like, you know, they're one way and you come up with a cow and you're like, like doing that thing of. Are you going right? Are you going left?

[A]

Favorite shop or market?

[B]

This might be a bit cliche, but the Paris Flea market, the Paul Berth section. Just the best things for the home from all over.

[A]

What's your favorite museum?

[B]

I'M going to go low, not high. I like a super personal, weird museum. So, like Mario Praz, which is his collection in Rome. There's an amazing museum of wax fruit in Turin that's connected to an amazing museum of things that institutionalized, insane people make. There's unbelievable weavings. Also this museum in Istanbul called the Museum of Innocence that is completely the passion project of the writer Orhan Pamuk. And it's a novel. There's a novel and then this collection that he's amassed of ordinary things that relate to the novel.

[A]

Where have you felt most out of place?

[B]

I don't think I've ever felt completely out of place anywhere. But I think in Japan it felt the most foreign to me. I mean, you can think like, India is such a different culture, but it's chaotic. I understand it as a New Yorker. Not that I understand it completely, but I feel comfortable there. In Japan, people were incredibly welcoming and kind, but I felt I was in the presence of a culture so different that it was hard to, like, be myself.

[A]

Where have you felt most at home?

[B]

Oh, right here with you. No, Italy. I mean, I feel like Italy's my comfort zone. My. You know, it's feels easy. The food's great, the people are nutty, and, you know, they seek beauty as just a matter of ordinary life. Just as a matter of course.

[A]

And deliciousness. Beauty and deliciousness.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like. Yeah, Italians would.

[B]

And ridiculousness.

[A]

Yes. This is silly.

[B]

The best, like, over dramatic.

[A]

It's just so fun. But it's like Italians, if it was. If you're like the lights were being cut off and they hadn't paid the electricity bill on the Monday, they'd still get the pesticini.

[B]

Yes, totally 100, really relaxed. Like, nothing's going to stop them from having great food or like doing something beautiful.

[A]

Looking good. Yeah, exactly. So I like to ask people and. And remember, this is like geography, real life, real obligations aside. Okay. Where would you most like to spend a weekend? A week? A month? A year.

[B]

Okay, a weekend. Tuscany, Umbria, maybe. Our friend Camilla Guinness house, which can be rented. Villa Arenano. Really? Just such a beautiful house, beautiful location.

[A]

And we went on a vacation there.

[B]

Yes. Okay, a week. Hydra. I'd like to go back to. I guess I like a place with no cars, quiet beauty, unbelievable landscape, just wandering around again, great food a month. Naples or Mexico City. So, you know, I have been doing this thing of the like, where do we want to go for a month? And both of those places, I think, are so rich and layered that to be able to spend a month there would be incredible.

[A]

And a year, probably Venice.

[B]

I mean I feel like I uncovered some and there's still so much more I want.

[A]

It's calling you for sure. Yeah. As well. I like to ask everyone what are you traveling through right now?

[B]

Is that an emotional question?

[A]

Yes, emotional question. It's a life question kind of age.

[B]

I mean, I think the idea of, you know, I think a lot of the decisions I've made about my life recently are about getting older, not wanting to have regrets. And so I'm traveling through this idea of time, of limited time and how I want to spend it. And a lot of that is by traveling too. I'm traveling through traveling too.

[A]

Well, I hope you spend some traveling time with me. One of my favorite travel buddies.

[B]

Thanks, Deborah.

[A]

I love you. You're the best.

[B]

I love you. View. Bye.