11 Skulls /// Israel Keyes /// Part 2

Summary

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True Crime Garage: 11 Skulls /// Israel Keyes /// Part 2

Release Date: September 24, 2024
Hosts: Nic & The Captain
Guests: Josh, Joshua, Dakota (true crime experts and investigative partners)

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Episode Overview

This episode (Part 2) plunges deeper into the chilling and complex case of serial killer Israel Keyes. Hosts Nic and the Captain, together with true crime researchers Josh, Joshua, and Dakota, unravel the mysteries, victims, and evidence concerning Keyes’ cross-country crimes. The discussion explores unknown victims, infamous missing person cases speculated to be tied to Keyes, the hunt for his infamous “kill kits,” symbolic cell art, motives, and the ongoing collaborative search for answers. Listeners get a behind-the-scenes look at the investigation’s intricacies, debates about evidence, and the frightening uncertainty that surrounds both the confirmed and suspected crimes of Israel Keyes.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Investigative Revelations: Keyes’ Confession, Victims, and Kill Kits

• The team discusses Israel Keyes’ self-identification as a serial killer and how his methodical approach leaves investigators puzzled ([01:11-01:47]).
• A disturbing 10-page document written by Keyes is described: all caps, no punctuation, and graphic first-hand accounts of murder, suggesting at least six victims, with the narrative abruptly ending mid-description ([01:48-02:25]).
• The importance of finding Keyes’ hidden "kill kits" is emphasized as the best chance to identify more victims by DNA or souvenirs ([09:22-11:29]).
• Collaboration between separate investigative groups and public involvement is highlighted as crucial to recent breakthroughs in the case ([12:26-13:12], [14:31-15:04]).

2. Unsolved Cases Potentially Linked to Keyes

Susie Lyle & Lauren Spierer ([02:39-05:51])

• Susie Lyle: Josh says, “There’s very, very compelling circumstantial evidence … her name is on his computer … we can place him in the area at the time.” ([03:23-04:05])
• Lauren Spierer: No eyewitness sightings of Keyes, but timeline gaps and computer searches fit his pattern. “He had Googled Missing Indiana, June 2011,” possibly corresponding to Spierer's disappearance ([04:15-05:51]).

Maura Murray & Brianna Maitland ([06:45-09:07])

• FBI has ruled Keyes out of Maitland’s case via a financial transaction, but he is not ruled out for Maura Murray. Josh: “I have always been firmly against Maura being a potential Keyes victim, but I am now open to it … finding that newspaper kind of changed the game for me.” ([07:06-08:26])

3. The Significance & Process of Finding Caches ([09:22-12:26])

• Dakota: “We feel... and the FBI feels it’s the best way to locate a victim. They believe he kept souvenirs in the kits … to be able to give that to the FBI and look for any DNA.” ([09:31-09:50])
• The team details painstaking research and analysis of Keyes’ patterns to predict cache locations ([10:05-11:17]).
• Public tips have directly led to the discovery of significant evidence ([12:26-13:12]).

4. Specific Victims & Regional Focus ([15:04-18:29])

• The FBI suspects four victims in Washington State, with details about an unidentified couple, and possible bodies submerged in lakes like Crescent and Ozette, weighed down with concrete. “He was really interested in very deep lakes,” Dakota notes ([15:28-18:29]).
• Explanation of how Keyes’ familiarity with parks and trailheads likely broadened his target pool in these regions.

5. Patterns, Motives, and MOs

Florida Boca Raton Murders ([18:29-20:40])

• Josh dismisses links to Florida mall killings: "Nothing about it matched Keyes' known MO... I just don't see him committing non-sexually motivated crimes in big city centers in broad daylight." ([19:22])

Child Victims? ([20:40-22:09])

• Josh: “He said that after his child was born, he didn’t go after kids anymore … I do believe that he probably did not kill kids for the majority of his criminal career.” ([20:57])
• Joshua: “His definition of what a kid is could have changed throughout that time.” ([21:46])

6. The Symbolism: Skulls, Pentagrams, and Suicide Notes ([22:09-28:58])

• Debate around the meaning of the “11 skulls” Keyes drew and the pentagram.
  • Josh: “I think it means something and it means nothing. … The number of skulls is fairly meaningless.” ([22:43])
  • Joshua: “I really think he’s trying to instill some deeper meaning to his actions... trying to make himself seem more mystical or mysterious than he really was.” ([23:19])
• Cell art and branding:
  • Joshua describes Keyes’ comments on Satanism: "At the time I thought I was into the whole Satanist symbolism stuff. Then over the next few years I realized ... it was just a justification. … I just wanted to do it because I wanted to do it." ([25:57])
  • Dakota details Keyes’ self-branding with symbols, including a pentagram and happy face, and speculations on their timing and methods ([26:50-28:58]).

7. Family, Public Persona, and Internal Conflict ([39:54-43:45])

• Despite his gruesome crimes, a major motivator for Keyes was shielding his daughter and family as much as possible. He only traded information for anonymity ([40:30-41:59]).
• Dakota notes: “He does. He is aware that what he is doing is bad … maybe the shame that comes along with that. I don’t know where to put that, but it’s interesting.” ([41:59])
• Evidence from anonymous online discussion boards supports his conflicted and dual-personal life ([43:00-43:45]).

8. Deep Dive: The Disappearance of Jimmy Tidwell ([44:01-48:20])

• Josh outlines why Tidwell is the most plausible unknown Keyes victim, based on timeline, geography, behavior, and circumstantial evidence:
  “When Jimmy Tidwell went missing about 200 miles away, Keyes was also missing. His phone off. … Keys actually bought two days after Jimmy’s disappearance from Walmart closest to Jimmy’s house … lubricant, a folding shovel, and air freshener.” ([44:15-46:42])
• Tidwell’s disappearance matches Keyes’ patterns, even down to post-crime arson and bank robbery ([46:42-47:13]).

9. Alibis, Paper Trails, & Law Enforcement Frustrations

• Keyes used legitimate IDs but manipulated paperwork to create confusing alibis—buying fishing licenses in different states, booking multiple hotel rooms, altering license plate numbers ([48:56-52:09]).
• The investigation has had to prioritize regions based on new info—Washington’s Olympic Peninsula, Texas, New York, and more ([53:37-56:15]).

10. Ongoing Call to Action

• The FBI and investigative team urge the public to report possible caches and unknown evidence ([56:23-57:35]).
• Keyes’ surviving family members have cooperated to the extent possible, desiring closure for the victims’ families ([57:35-58:37]).

11. What Makes the Case So Haunting?

• Josh: “Everything about this case is the opposite of what we’re accustomed to. We know the killer but not the victims… any one of us could have been his victims.” ([58:58])
• Joshua: “We have so much information about his crimes, yet we kind of have nothing.” ([59:56])
• Dakota: “He is just the scariest serial killer ever. … There is a pattern that I think can be solved. … It just puts another point on the map.” ([60:23])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On the ambiguity of Keyes' victim count:

"I think it means something and it means nothing. I think the number is just bullshit. I think he's feeding into the FBI's narrative of 11 victims."
— Josh ([22:43])

On his supposed Satanism:

"At the time I thought I was into the whole Satanist symbolism stuff. Then over the next few years I realized I didn't believe in any of that stuff. ... I realized I wanted to do it because I wanted to do it."
— Quoting Keyes, shared by Joshua ([25:57])

On their collaborative breakthrough:

“Once the three of us all shared the separate pieces of information we had, we were able to confirm and corroborate and find something monumental.”
— Josh ([13:12])

On the mystery and fear surrounding the case:

“He is just the scariest serial killer ever. ... It could just be the next piece of big information that blows this whole thing wide open.”
— Dakota ([60:23])

On finding caches and public help:

“If you found something like this, even if you've already reported it to local law enforcement, make sure to report it again to the FBI so that if it is one of Keyes’ caches, we can connect it and hopefully use the evidence to identify other victims.”
— Joshua ([11:29])

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Important Timestamps

• Textbook serial killer discussion – [01:11-01:47]
• Details of Keyes’ handwritten manifesto – [01:48-02:25]
• Susie Lyle & Lauren Spierer disappearances – [02:39-05:51]
• Potential links to Maura Murray and Brianna Maitland – [06:45-09:07]
• The process and purpose of searching for kill kits – [09:22-12:26]
• Collaboration breakthrough in investigation – [13:12-15:04]
• Washington state victims and methodology – [15:28-18:29]
• Florida Boca Raton mall murders discussion – [18:29-20:40]
• Debate on whether Keyes killed children – [20:40-22:09]
• Analysis of skull drawings and pentagram – [22:09-28:58]
• Jimmy Tidwell’s disappearance details – [44:01-48:20]
• Manipulating evidence trails and alibis – [48:56-52:09]
• Call to action and family’s cooperation – [56:23-58:37]
• What makes the Israel Keyes case unique and so disturbing – [58:58-61:41]

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Conclusion

This episode is a meticulous, insightful examination of Israel Keyes as investigators and podcasters pursue long-cold leads and puzzle over chilling evidence. The crossover of theory, fieldwork, and the hope for public assistance underlines both the difficulty and necessity of finding closure for unknown victims. Keyes remains an enigma: a killer who wanted secrecy more than notoriety, whose crimes cross state lines and logic, and whose case is both a modern-day horror story and an unfinished puzzle.

Listen to the next segments on True Crime Bullshit (Part 3) and Somewhere in the Pines (Part 4) for further developments in this sprawling investigation.

Transcript

[Host of True Crime Garage]

Picture this. It's the end of a long week. You're unwinding in the tub, listening to your favorite true crime podcast and then chronic hives come back again in the middle of the episode. What a wet blanket. Looks like another spell of itchy, swollen, red or skin colored hives. If you have chronic spontaneous urticaria or csu, there may be a different treatment option. Worried about your chronic hives interrupting our next episode? Learn [e-mail] Garage.

[Josh]

Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. Now I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills, but it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment of 45 DOL for 3 months, $90 for 6 months or $180 for a 12 month plan required $15 per month equivalent taxes and fees. Extra initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes.

[Dakota]

Me slow when network is busy.

[Josh]

See terms Twisted mind of a serial killer.

[Joshua]

Israel Keys left investigators stunned by telling them he's a serial killer. Textbook serial killer. He took pleasure in the act of taking a life.

[Host of True Crime Garage]

There is nothing probably greater than holding the power and control of someone's life

[Josh]

and looking them in the eye and being able to control all that is intoxicating. The serial killers.

[Joshua]

Textbook serial killer is real. Keys.

[Dakota]

Yes.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

My understanding is there's a letter that he had written to family and it reads like a goodbye letter. Okay. And then they found this 10 page document. It's very unique. It's written in all caps, no punctuation, no paragraphs. So and in it he's giving a first panic, first hand account of victims as he's killing them. Extremely graphic. One of the most disturbing things I've ever read my whole career. And there's six victims that are described and it looks like during the last description he's interrupted. So he's, he hasn't finished.

[Host of True Crime Garage]

But that's all we have.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Is there a case out there in the true crime world that you believe is connected to Israel Keys? That like a popular case that maybe people would know?

[Josh]

Yeah, you know, there's, and I am not certain of any. I, you know, I have a list of potential victims and there are about a dozen where I think there's very, very compelling circumstantial evidence. But I always say shy of physical evidence These are all just theories or ideas or conversations. You know, the. The victim that I think is the most plausible is not a well known case. It's a man named Jimmy Tidwell. But of the well known cases, two that come up a lot are Susie Lyle and Lauren Spierer.

[Joshua]

Yeah, Susie Lyle has always been probably my top case that I feel like is connected to Keyes just based on the timing of his enrollment in the military.

[Josh]

Yeah, he was in the area at the time. He had searched her case. There's a very credible sighting of him in a parking lot less than a mile from where she disappeared, approaching some woman late at night. We don't know which parking lot, but we know that Susie Lyle disappeared from a parking lot in the middle of the night. So. And that, I mean, that's just like the tip of the iceberg with circumstantial evidence. There's a ton. But the fact that we can place him in the area at the time and her name is on his computer is very reasonable evidence for me.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

And then Lauren Speer was a victim at the University of Indiana. Do we have any eyewitness sightings of Keyes in that area at that time?

[Josh]

Not at that time. We do have sightings of him in the area several years prior, which is interesting and kind of does correlate to his known pattern, you know, going out and burying a cache in Essex, Vermont, two years before abducting the couriers from Essex, Vermont. What's interesting to me, and I know this is a very polarizing case and a polarizing theory, but Keyes flew into Chicago on June 2nd of 2011 and then immediately disappeared. We can't really place him anywhere until he arrives at his mother's home in Northeast Indiana, a town called Harlan outside of Fort Wayne, on the evening of June 3, depending on when he landed. And we don't know for certain, we have some ideas, but he was missing an action for anywhere from 24 to 36 hours. In that time, Lawrence Beer disappears from Bloomington, Indiana. Key said that he often would look at articles or, you know, try to check in on his victims and see where the investigations were going, but he would never, which is not true, but he said he never Googled them by name. What he would do is Google a location and a date. When his computer was seized, he had Googled Missing Indiana, June 2011. When talking about the couriers, he continually says he'll talk about what happened after he abducted them, but he will not talk about what happened prior to their abduction on that trip, which Would also correlate to Lauren Spears disappearance. She disappeared just a week before the couriers.

[Dakota]

That stands out sent out to us as well. We actually asked the FBI about that specific thing because he said that he won't talk about anything before the specific date of the couriers, which would offer up that entire week that he. We didn't know if he was talking about. He didn't want to talk about the entire week beforehand or just any crimes in the years prior to that. And the FBI basically said they don't really know, but it could open up the possibility that, you know, he. He actually committed crimes all through Indiana, Ohio, Pennsylvania, New York, and beyond, when

[Josh]

we've actually worked with local law enforcement. And they are very collaborative with us, or I guess as much as they can be. And they've said they have not been able to see Keys or anyone who looks like him in any of that footage. However, there was a. I believe a ping on Alaska phone in the area at the time.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

And two other cases in the true crime world, Brianna Maitland and Ma Murray. I know the FBI has asked about Kee's involvement in there, and they've ruled out his involvement in the Maitland case, But they would not rule him out as a possibility in Maura Murray's case.

[Josh]

Yeah, it's interesting. They ruled him out of the Maitland case based on a financial transaction. We don't know much more about that. It was not in any of the case files that we received. I would like some clarity around that. Of the two. If Keys is involved, I think Maitland matches the MO Much more. He used to drive the road that she disappeared from and her car was found on all the time. It's the road that connects his cabin to his family's cabin. We have received some potential evidence that could place Keys at his cabin in upstate New York the day after Maura disappeared. Travel records have him flying into Salt Lake City, I think, a few days before and departing from Salt Lake City a few days after. We don't really know where he is in the interim. So this newspaper found at his cabin, dated the day after Maura's disappearance, I think is interesting. I have always been firmly against Maura being a potential Keys victim, But I am now open to it, I guess, in terms of at least continuing to investigate, only to rule her out. But at this point, finding that newspaper kind of changed the game for me. And I think there is some. Some stuff in her case that does align with things we know about Keys, including cars he drove at the time or cars he had on his property at the time.

[Dakota]

I would say one argument probably against that is that he. I think it was during the courier trip is when he said that he was starting to feel like he wanted some attention and notoriety for what he was doing, and he started to take things. Started to take on a little more risk. And the Maura Murray case is just such a massive case. I can't imagine that that wouldn't have fulfilled that need beforehand.

[Josh]

What's interesting, though, is it didn't really become a national news case till much later, because I looked into this, I did a bunch of Google trend analysis, and Maura Murray didn't really make it into the American lexicon until 2010. 2011.

[Joshua]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

And it would have been way bigger after that. After his suicide.

[Josh]

Yeah. In fact, she. She became more of a true crime household name after her disappear, disappeared episode came out, which I think was in 2011 or 2012.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

What is the importance of finding these additional kits?

[Dakota]

Well, I think it's probably the most important thing because we feel. It's the.

[Josh]

We feel.

[Dakota]

And the FBI feels it's the best way to locate a victim. They believe that he kept souvenirs in the kits. So it's opportunity, if we find one, to be able to give that to the FBI and then let them go through and look for any DNA or any sort of souvenirs that he may have left. Left behind.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

How do you guys go about searching for these?

[Dakota]

Just close your eyes and walk through the woods. Just get this kid. That's it. Yeah. Sorry. Dakota. Is this where you're supposed to.

[Joshua]

Yeah, there's a lot. A lot to the process, and there's a lot of research that goes into it. As Josh joked. We get. We get on a lot as if we're just kind of hustling through the woods expecting to find something, and that's really not how we operate. But like Josh said, we think it's super important to find something like this to be able to match evidence to an unknown victim. And we think that there's a. There's plenty of information in the case file and in the interrogations that we can kind of analyze, you know, his. His behavior, his. The way he talks about things, to be able to figure out how he operated. The Essex cache is a perfect example of that. He told this whole. The whole story from basically beginning to end of how he acts, how he. When he hid the cash, how he accessed it, what he used it for, when he reburied, when and where he reburied it, or rehit It. And so we have all this information of how he operated with these caches. And if we pay attention to his timeline and his movements throughout the years, you can start to put a picture together of where caches might be based on his activity.

[Dakota]

And they also have a few caches that Israel led them to, led the FBI to. So we have been able to go to these locations and actually view the sites, to look for landmarks, to be able to compare them to other, other sites.

[Joshua]

Well, one thing I want to point out is that speaking with Special Agent Hala, he, you know, we agree with him that he brings it up and he's very motivated in the fact that he believes that the public is going to be our best resource in finding these caches because it's very possible that they've already been found or will be found, and they just need to be reported through the proper channels to be connected to the case. And so we think that that's a. That there's a good, you know, possibility there that, you know, members of the public can help us connect these things to the case. So if you found something like this, you need, even if you've already reported it to local law enforcement, make sure to report it again to the FBI so that if it is one of keys caches, we can connect it and hopefully use the evidence to identify other victims.

[Josh]

And that's already proven to be pretty fruitful. You know, we've had a few tips that now, after the guys have talked to the FBI, we find even more credible. And I don't know if you guys want to talk about that further.

[Dakota]

Basically, whenever we started to team up with, with Josh and his team, we were lucky enough to start sharing information before we even formed a partnership. And one of Josh's team members, Kim K. She brought Josh a tip that he gave to us and we gave to the FBI. And it ended up turning to the biggest piece of evidence that has been released since Israel Keys killed himself. So. And we will be releasing that in our next episode. We're doing a joint episode. We'll be releasing that episode right after the show. So definitely come and listen.

[Josh]

Well, I was just going to say. Well, a. That's the cool thing about this is, you know, you have three different groups who are, you know, probably the three most informed groups on Keys, all working independently, well, up until a certain point, who see things from different perspectives and glom onto different details and are doing wildly different investigations. And then those three groups all came together and we found the biggest piece of evidence in the Keys case since his death. And I think that really speaks to the power of collaboration, just how great it is that the guys made this connection, you know, deep connection with hala. And then my team independently was doing work. And once the three of us all shared, you know, the separate pieces of information we had, we were able to confirm and corroborate and find something monumental. It's really cool. And then second, you know, I had gotten a tip a few years ago about a woman who believed she encountered Keys with a cache, and the guys took that to hala, and that is, you know, it's not quite as fruitful yet, but we are able to kind of move along and at least investigate that with a little more credibility.

[Joshua]

Yeah, and it just, it just really shows, like how, you know, in, in a real time investigation that the teamwork and the collaboration can totally change the trajectory, you know, of and the progress of this, of any case. But, you know, this is our case that we're working on. And so it just shows that, you know, there's. There's so much information out there to be uncovered and we're all looking at it from a different perspective and with different talents. And if you bring all that stuff together, I mean, we can. I really feel like we can make some big progress.

[Host of True Crime Garage]

So the list of potential victims is unfortunately rather long. But there were some that I were a little more interested in than some of the others, in particular Washington State and Joshua and Dakota, that's kind of your neck of the woods. And it sounds like their suspicion that there could be as many as five potential Israel Keys victims in Washington state.

[Dakota]

So the FBI believes there are actually four, not five. So they do have. They think that he killed somebody else while he was still living in Washington and that was his first victim. They believe it was between July 2001 and October 31, 2001. But the murder didn't take place inside the state of Washington. But they don't know what state it was, they just know that it wasn't in Washington. The four victims that they think most likely happened around the 2000 to 2005 to 2006 area. Two of the victims have been described as a couple, which I talked about earlier. It's unknown at this point how they were connected. They did ask him if they were in a married couple, boyfriend, girlfriend, a partnership of any sort, and he didn't elaborate on that. But we know it was a male and a female and that they went into a hole and that the male was killed with a shovel. And as I Said before was another premature, quote, unquote, premature death. He was trying to keep the victim quiet. The female, he said, was stabbed and strangled. They believe that those two victims were killed in eastern Washington. And they have kind of a time frame that they believe that's happened. But I need to confer with Josh about a few things before we, we get into the details of that. And then the two other victims, he was able to purchase a boat from his wife's ex husband. He'd talked about disposing of two victims from this boat. They, he thinks, they think that the victims were placed in two separate locations, two separate lakes. One they believe was Lake Crescent. And Josh was actually given access to go and search that lake. So I'll give him some time to speak about that because it's really exciting. But he submerged that victim with gallons of concrete that he had filled and submerged them in the lake. And they believe that the other victim is potentially in Lake Ozette. But that is all just speculation for right now. That's just a place that he visited very often, and he was really interested in very deep lakes. One thing that's important about the Washington victims is during one of the interrogations, they're trying to decide on how the Washington victims could be a federal case. And at this point, Israel had already known that transporting a victim across state lines would be instantly a federal crime. So during the conversation, he's trying to figure this out. And so we asked Special Agent Hull about that. It sounds like all four victims were actually taken in Washington, not from out of state. And they don't know for sure where they resided, only that they would. That they were taken while they were in Washington State. Which makes the way that he hunted early on and tried to get victims early on in his career was by going to trailheads and parks. It makes a lot of sense that you would run into more tourists in that area too. So it would probably confuse things even more if they go missing by national park or something like that. So, yeah, they think all four victims were taken in Washington, not brought from out of state.

[Host of True Crime Garage]

What about possibly connecting him to these murders in Boca Raton, Florida? That was a case that we covered on True Crime Garage a long time ago, where somebody was abducting people from the parking lot of popular shopping mall down there. And it's believed that there were three. I think there were three attacks and abductions in total. But in two of the situations resulted in murder, and one of those cases was a double homicide. Is there, is there anything connecting him to those murders down in Florida or, or is Keys. I imagine in a lot of these situations, it's like an Ed Edwards situation where somebody is saying, like, oh, there's you have these 10 unsolved homicides that took place scattered throughout the United States. Well, it must be Israel Keyes.

[Josh]

I looked into this pretty extensively, only because I had just seen it coming up over and over and over again, and I was pretty skeptical about it from the jump. It's just nothing about it matched Keyes known mo. These are often exceptions to the rule. He doesn't live by these. He often will, you know, engage in crimes of opportunity or in, in crimes of immediacy. But I, I just don't see him committing non sexually motivated crimes in big city centers in broad daylight, surrounded by lots of people. Just none of that matches anything we know about Keys or the way he intended to operate. That said, there are some sketches that look a lot like him, but, you know, for two of them, we can't place Keys anywhere at the time that they occurred. But for one of them, and I always say with Keys, like anything is possible. But in this case, it would be virtually impossible for him to have been in Florida when the attack occurred. You know, like I said, he's tricky, but it would be very, very challenging for him to be in that parking lot when the attack occurred, just based on where we can place him surrounding the attack.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

So Israel Keyes is. He baffles me because we don't have a type of victim, it seems like to me. And then there's this other speculation that maybe he killed children. So that makes things a lot more difficult.

[Josh]

Yeah, the kids thing is interesting. And again, you know, as we talked about, he's not really a liar per se, or when he is lying, he's very bad at it. He said that after his child was born, he didn't go after kids anymore. And I believe that as much as you can believe anything out of a serial killer's mouth. He did say in one of his last interviews that he knew he was losing control later on in his criminal career because he doesn't usually go after kids. Maybe that means he put a child at risk or entered a home with a kid, or maybe that means he actually planned on or did kill a kid later on in his criminal career. But I would say, again, those are exceptions. I do believe that he probably did not kill kids for the majority of his criminal career.

[Joshua]

His evolution, like we're talking about 14 years here. And so you know, his definition of what a kid is could have changed throughout that time. You know, he, you know, when he starts this, he's a young man, so maybe his definition of a child at that point was different than it was 14 years later.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

I hate to harp on this, but I think it's one of the most fascinating parts about the case is the skull drawings and the pentagram. Can we just go around the room just, just to get a clear sense of. Because you guys, I'm guessing, have different differing opinions on what this means or if it means anything and speak on the skulls, the pentagram and the one skull that says we are one.

[Josh]

I'll start since I'll probably be the quickest. I think it's, it means something and it means nothing. I think the number is just bullshit. I think he's feeding into the FBI's narrative of 11 victims. I think there is meaning to, you know, the idea behind it, the blood and the skulls and the we are one. And I'm sure the guys will elaborate on that. But I, I think the number of skulls that he painted is, is fairly meaningless.

[Joshua]

I, I, I tend to agree with Josh about the number. I think that, you know, he's, he's letting the FBI believe what they want to believe. As far as the number of victims, as far as like the, the, the visuals that this produces. He's, he, I, I really think that he's trying to instill some like, deeper meaning to his actions. He knew he was a, you know, a murderous piece, trying to like, make himself seem more, you know, mystical or mysterious than, than he really was. I, I tend to think that, you know, it was a, it was kind of a last ditch effort to, to be important.

[Dakota]

I don't have much to add to that, but I will say that when we release a new piece of evidence on October 20, we, we are really excited to bring that component into the conversation with the FBI profilers because there could be something combined with all these pieces put together that could, could lead to something important. But at this point, yeah, I wonder if this is the same time that he was writing those suicide notes. We wanted, we're going to ask specially Nehal about that to see if it was the same day. So I'm wondering if he was actually writing those suicide notes and this was just before he was about to commit suicide initially and then he was interrupted or if it was just two separate events. But other than that, it's just trying, him just trying to show ownership of these four unfortunate victims.

[Joshua]

Yeah, I completely agree with you, Josh, that I think that now that we have the information on the suicide and we have the information about the skull drawings that were at a different time, that we're able to kind of put the suicide note, the goodbye letter, the skull drawings and the cell drawings or writings all together and analyze it as a whole, which will hopefully, you know, bring new information to light. The picture of Baphomet that was included with the skull drawings, which is the horned goat with the pentagram, is Satanic imagery. And I think that, you know, he, he talked about this in the interrogations of, of like his motivations or him trying to come to terms with, you know, the, the sexual status that he was. And I have a quote here somewhere. Here we go. And so in the 7:10 interview he says back then, and he's talking about when he was late teens, early 20s. He says, back then I thought I was a Satanist. I had a different philosophy than I do now. My philosophy changed on what I wanted or my philosophy changed on why I wanted to do it. At the time I thought I was into the whole Satanist symbolism stuff. Then over the next few years I realized I didn't believe in any of that stuff. It was just a justification. And I realized I wanted to do it because I wanted to do it. And so he says himself that before his incarceration that he had already come to terms with the fact that he didn't believe any of that shit, that he wasn't a Satanist, he just wanted to murder because he wanted to murder. And so I find it very interesting the fact that he's kind of going back to that ideology and this, and this symbolism with Satanism when he says himself that he doesn't believe any of that stuff.

[Dakota]

What's also interesting with that is the he branded himself over his, on his body. So he had several brands like an upside down cross, I believe, a smiley face, an anarchy symbol. And I believe there are a couple other. I can't recall at the moment.

[Joshua]

There was a pentagram.

[Dakota]

Pentagram. Thank you. Sorry. And one thing that's interesting about the drawing in the cell is the pentagram is actually reversed and with the two points projecting upwards. Normally a pentagram is actually a symbol of unity, which would make sense if he's trying to say that they are all one. But this reverse pentagram with the two points projecting upwards is a symbol of evil and it attracts like sinister forces basically. So it's a completely different meaning. And one thing about the, about the brands, just to throw this in there, they had asked his ex girlfriend about his branding. And, you know, she. She was in the medical field, so she knew about wounds and. And things like that. And there's a specific note where they had asked her about how the brands were done, and she wasn't really sure, but she assumed just heating up metal and then applying to the skin like a coat hanger or something like that. When they go into detail, they start asking her questions. There's one in particular that they were asking about that must have been done very poorly or left a very bad scar. So there's a question as to whether they were trying to ask her if they think that he would brand himself either after a victim or while with a victim. Because he talks a lot about going out and having to smoke with these victims. He talked about having a cigarette or, yeah, I think a cigar or cigarette with Lorraine Currier, same thing with Samantha Koenig. And they were sort of insinuating that the, I believe the Happy Face brand was actually done with the sort of a cigarette or a cigar. And. And this is all again, later on in life after he claims to have no longer believed in Satanism, that he's still attaching these different images to himself.

[Josh]

You just riled up all the Happy Face Truth Serial killer.

[Dakota]

Oh, yeah, yeah, thanks.

[Josh]

I. I've wondered that too, because he.

[Host of True Crime Garage]

He.

[Josh]

You. Part of his kill kit was a camp stove, which, you know, there are about a million very nefarious things we can think about him using that camp stove for. But I've always wondered if perhaps it was as part of a branding thing and not a torture thing.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Like you said, he identified himself at some point as a Satanist. Do we have evidence or anybody talking about whether he studied being a Satanist or studying anything of the cult?

[Josh]

Yeah, he talked about it. I mean, you know, I guess it would depend on your definition of studied. But he read a lot about the occult, Satanism, serial killers. I believe he even had like a Satanist pack in. In the bag that he took on this first. You know, his definition of rape is very strange, but this first sexual assault that he committed in either 97 or 98, he said that he wanted to bring Satanism into it. So, yeah, he doesn't go into detail about, like, what books he read or how long he was studying it, but it was clearly something he had read up on.

[Joshua]

And I think it has everything do with his. I mean, at least that aspect, the Satanism aspect, especially earlier in life, has everything to do with his upbringing. His family was very involved in, you know, religious cults and things like that. And his mother was extremely religious in different variations throughout his childhood. And he said himself that, you know, that, that he thought that the Satanism aspect was him kind of lashing out and being really angry at his religious upbringing.

[Josh]

Yeah, you throughout his life, a lot of what he did was in rebellion to his upbringing. You know, he was raised in a essentially neo Nazi church that did not value minorities, specifically gay people and black people. And, you know, he married a black woman and was a bisexual man. I don't think he was bisexual out of rebellion, but I do think a lot of what he did in life was in direct conflict of how he was raised. He joined the army, which was very against his family and his religious upbringing.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

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[Host of True Crime Garage]

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[Joshua]

Yeah. And I think that, you know that the skull drawings, like we said, were done at a different time from, from when he was able to accomplish suicide. But it's very possible that he was trying to commit suicide at that time and maybe that was the message that he wanted to leave. I really think he was just trying to. Yeah. Like give meaning or almost an excuse of why he was the person that he was.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

So do we believe that Israel Keys was concerned about how his family or how his daughter would see him?

[Josh]

Yeah, I think it changed during his incarceration. Not so much with his kid, but with the rest of his family. He definitely wanted to protect them for whatever reason from what he had done and how he would be viewed in the world. I do know, however, that, you know, no one believed, no one in his life believed he was capable of these things. And you know, in the last months of his life, he was writing letters that were confiscated saying, like, yeah, I did do these things. But when it came to his kid, it seems to the very end, he did what he could to shelter her from knowing who he actually was.

[Joshua]

Well, I think it's important to know that he was willing to talk to the FBI, but he was willing to give up information only in trade. And the trade was that he would give more information on his crimes and victims only if the FBI kept him and his name out of the media. And so that. And then the other. The other thing he wanted was an expedited execution. It's surprising because he liked to talk about it, but at the same time, he did not want the media coverage. And the only reason I can think of why that was a motivation for him is to protect his family and specifically his daughter.

[Josh]

Yeah, I think it's really easy, particularly with, you know, the history of serial killers, to conflate wanting to talk about his crimes with wanting attention for his crimes. And I think with Keys, like, those two things are not in relation to one another. I think he enjoyed talking about them because he. He didn't have to live in secrecy anymore. But I don't think it was about garnering media public, worldwide attention. Like I said earlier, I think he would hate the fact that we're sitting here having this conversation for, you know, millions of people to hear. And then, yeah, to Dakota's point, he very much went in. The reason most people didn't know about Keys till very recently was because of this deal he made with the FBI, which he even said was like, I want to protect my family. I don't want my kid to hear about this stuff.

[Dakota]

It's also interesting because there's so much material available that you're able to see it in different points in his life that he almost seemed conflicted about it. I think in 2001, there's a. He had spoken to a girlfriend at the time and said that he had a darkness surrounding his heart or a blackness surrounding his heart. And, you know, later on, right before he was actually apprehended, he was seen crying and saying, you don't know the things that I've done to his family members in Texas. So there's this strange. It's really strange to me where it seems like he does. He is aware that what he is doing is bad, and not that he feels remorse for it, but it could be just the idea of him realizing that eventually my family is going to find out about that, and then maybe the shame that Comes along with that. I don't know. I don't really know where to put that. But it's interesting to be able to see that two sides of somebody. So terrifying.

[Josh]

Yeah. Even in very strange places. We've been doing a lot of data mining using, you know, Internet breaches and Google trends to track his online activity. And we were able to find a screen name that he was using on Discuss, which is like a comment app. And under, you know, what he thought was anonymity, he had said to someone, like, what if I was a serial killer with a young child who had killed 50 people, would you say that to me then? So it just goes back to this. Like he wanted to talk about it and he wanted to get reactions, but he didn't want the attention. It's. It's a very strange dichotomy.

[Joshua]

Well, it seems like the, you know, that like we talked about this in our first episode, the duality of his personalities, like, I'm not saying he's a split personality or anything like that, but he definitely had two different lives he was leading and they were completely in conflict with one another.

[Host of True Crime Garage]

One thing that is strange is this disappearance of Jimmy Lamar Tidwell Jr. Is there anyone that can talk about the details of that and why Keys might be linked to this disappearance?

[Josh]

Yeah, this is, you know, I've looked at probably 70 missing persons cases as being plausible possible Keys cases. And Jimmy Tidwell is far and away to me the most compelling. He disappeared, we're not really sure when. He worked the swing shift at a, I want to say, pipe fitting company in East Texas. And we know he got off at around, I think 3am on February 15th of 2012. We don't know whether he made it home or not. He just disappeared at some point following his shift from work, was never seen again. He, for his job, wore construction helmet, construction goggles, construction gloves. He at the time had long, thinning, like grayish brown hair. And his car was eventually found, I want to say, six miles from his house on an old farm road. His helmet was not in there. His helmet disappeared with him. At the time he disappeared, Keys was in Texas. His phone was turned off and he told his family that he had gotten stuck in the mud at a mall parking lot for two days. He did later say that he got stuck in the mud on that trip. He didn't confirm that it was on that two day window or where it happened. But what we do know is when Jimmy Tidwell went missing about 200 miles away, Keys was also Missing. With his phone off, Jimmy disappeared from an area that Keyes family was about to move to. Keyes actually bought two days after Jimmy's disappearance from the Walmart closest to Jimmy's house, which at that point he had no geographic ties to. Lubricant, a folding shovel and air freshener. We know Keyes was a necrophile. That's compelling. But also, you know, I've talked to Bobby Chacon who briefly worked the case and just all. Also through my research, there is a trend that Keys would often look to or actually commit burglaries and arsons following his murders. He even talked about prolonging the high. The day after Jimmy Tidwell disappeared, Keys set a house on fire in Alito, Texas and then drove to Azel, Texas where he rob the bank.

[Dakota]

And I can jump in really quick just to add to that the, the receipt that they found that said there was a shovel lube and an air freshener. It doesn't really state what kind of lube it is, and it could have been something, and I say that because it could, it could be for the obviously nefarious reason, but it could also be as a way to kind of bury another cache and prep weapons before he buries them. So either way, it doesn't look good, but it's just a different way to look at that, I guess.

[Josh]

When they eventually confirmed it was Keys who robbed the spank and azel, they pulled up the surveillance and Keys is wearing a construction helmet and he has long stringy hair in it. And they asked him where he got the hair from and he said that it was human hair. Very, very compelling circumstantial evidence. The only other plausible suspect in Jimmy's disappearance is his wife. And we have the local case files, local law enforcement case files, and they don't say why, but they say that they have ruled her out. She, however, you know, was not a great witness. She changed her story a couple times. So I want to put that out there, but I just. The, the evidence for Keys is pretty overwhelming. There's some other factors. We know that Keys often trolled Craigslist and right before Jimmy disappeared, he had posted on Craigslist that he was selling his washer and dryer. Jimmy lived in a very rural area in a house that was under construction. So, you know, again, goes with the geography and anthropology of cusa's MO of going to far away places where there aren't going to be witnesses and places that he can blend in.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Well, this is what's fascinating because you said you believe there's some evidence of digital contact with these victims.

[Josh]

I. It's something we're pursuing because we've seen patterns. There has not been any definitive proof yet, but we have seen some of the same stuff come over and over and over again. We also know for a fact and have copies of it. Where Keys was going online and commenting on articles about his victims, Was he

[Host of True Crime Garage]

using false identification at any time? Because it like he's trying to muddy the waters and really cover his tracks and really not let people know where he is at certain times. But to fly into Chicago, I mean, you purchase there's a paper trail, right? You purchase that, that plane ticket and you can drive as far as you want. But he rented a car and then he checks into a hotel. It seems like, I don't know, it seems very like I'm going to these great lengths and all this effort to distance my physical self from where I actually am. But meanwhile, it seems like very novice of him, like a rookie mistake that yes, there's a paper trail.

[Dakota]

I kind of think that was actually part of it. He's setting up his own alibis by having these points on a map, but then he's distancing himself from those points. And even with William and Lorraine Courier, you know, his alibi was that he was going to be fishing that area. He bought a fishing license for those that three days slot that he would be in town. So while he was there, if he ever did a question about it, he would be able to say, no, I was just there fishing. That's. I was just passing through. I always pass through this area. And he went to the same hotel that he'd been to multiple times. So I think it was just a way for him to. He absolutely could have used different, different IDs, but I think he tried to set it up in such a short amount of time that it seemed impossible for him to even be considered a suspect.

[Josh]

Yeah, I agree. We've had a few people come forward and say they know for a fact that he used or had fake IDs, but we haven't been able to like credibly vet those comments. But to Josh's point, I think he was, he was more interested in muddying where and when he was. So another example is he would. He bought two phishing licenses in two states for the two same. For the same two day period or there's at least one instance where he checked or he booked two different hotel rooms in two different cities for the same night. So I think Stuff like that, where he could plausibly say, like, oh, I was going to go there, but I changed my mind. Or like, oh, yeah, I was just there for a few days to fish and then I left. And that goes back to him planning his crimes in conjunction with events, whether it be cruises or visiting family or family birthday parties or whatever.

[Joshua]

And correct, correct me if I'm wrong here, you guys, but did he, Wasn't he booked in the hotel room in Texas right before his arrest? Wasn't he booked in that hotel room under an alias like Isaiah or something like that?

[Josh]

Yeah, yeah, but there is, you know, in Vermont, he used his identification to book that room, but when they took his license plate for parking, he changed one digit on the license plate and changed the issuing state. So instead of being New Hampshire, I think he said it was Arizona. And instead of being like 1, 2, 3, he said it was 1, 3, 2. And that could have also just been human error. It's very easy to say everything is intentional. But yeah, he did small things to muddy his digital or geographic footprints, and

[Host of True Crime Garage]

they keep a database of those of fishing licenses and hunt hunting licenses as well. So it's, it's. I don't know. Again, I find it strange that he going to all these efforts to the, I mean, the paper trail would have been the same if he would just flown to Vermont. You know, it seems like he's creating all this extra work, but like the captain said, who knows what he did between Chicago and Vermont.

[Josh]

Exactly.

[Host of True Crime Garage]

Well, and I know some of this information is, is sensitive. And you guys have worked with the FBI and you, you still have a lot of work that's still going on and going forward that you're going to continue with. But you guys know me, I'm sensitive or not, I'm going to needle you for information. You, you, you knew walking into this that that was going to happen. So with, without being too, yeah, without being too descriptive here, I'm gonna, I, I'm gonna demand an answer. But within that case file and the information that you guys have reviewed, you know, you talked earlier about the process of going to locations and attempting to recover these items. What, what are the states of, of significance to those future searches? States that you're more concerned with, Right, because we have the, we have 50 states in the United States. Which ones are you prioritizing based off of that information as opposed to ones that just don't seem so interesting to you?

[Dakota]

I think we probably each have a different answer for this. I would, I would bet, but I'D say definitely. Right now, our main focus is Washington, the Olympic Peninsula and the surrounding areas. That's where our entire first season is taking place in New York. We know. I was speaking with the FBI that they found a cache recently in New York, and it was. They turned out to not be connected to keys, but they still expect there to be caches in New York. And obviously there's Vermont, Maine. Texas is a very high priority for us. He stated placing one in Wyoming. That's huge. And the FBI also told us that there's a good chance they believe that either there's a cache or a victim in Oregon. But like I said, I think all of us probably have our own opinions, just by the way that we look at the case.

[Joshua]

Yeah. The crazy thing is we have leads all around the country and we kind of have to prioritize them, you know, mostly because of time and resource limitations, but so we have to kind of see which ones are the most valid and kind of go after those first. And like Josh said, the Olympic Peninsula in Washington, since he spent so much time there and was so active in Washington, we think, at least personally, I think that there's more crimes to uncover in Washington. And the evidence and these caches that could still be there are of the most interest to us. And so, you know, like, places that he went and frequented. The only things we know are what he told the FBI, but we know that he also spent time with people in these locations. You know, spots like Lake Crescent, Beaver Lake, Lake Ozette, Port Angeles, Sequim. These are all really high value places for us as far as information. And so there's, I mean, but the, the leads are kind of taking us all around the country.

[Josh]

Yeah, for me, I have like, hot spots of likely activity. And so Pennsylvania, West Virginia is one. Upstate New York to Maine is another. Texas, Louisiana, Alabama, Tennessee is one the four corner states. Then Washington, Southern California, Northern California and Wyoming are kind of my priorities right now.

[Dakota]

I don't think any of us mentioned Alaska, did we? Okay.

[Josh]

Oh, well, that's obvious.

[Dakota]

That's one spot that's really high on our list to go see because we haven't been to the spot where they discovered a cache there. And that's, that's something I really am excited to get to.

[Host of True Crime Garage]

What's your guys's call to action on your guys's podcast regarding this case? What, what is the FBI working on now? What do they want the public to know? Because they've, they've made a reach out to the public on at least Two or three occasions. Right. Looking for more information about Israel Keys.

[Dakota]

The FBI is absolutely still involved. They're participant participate in a bunch of media events to try to get the word out about the caches because they think that is the best opportunity to find a victim and they think that caches have been found and just not reported. So I think just getting awareness out that if you found something like this or if you stumble across something like this, make sure you do not touch it, you do not open it, you just report it to the police and then let them take over from there. But in the coming months there will be a few docu series released, there's been a few more podcasts started up about Israel Keys and the FBI has been taking part in those podcasts like, like ours. They're going to be working with Josh as well to try to spread the word because the, really the, the, the chance of them finding a victim just by stumbling across it is going to be so difficult. So they think this is the best avenue to find, to find victims.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Has Israel Keys family members or friends, have any of them been cooperative with either one of your guys investigations?

[Josh]

Yes. Yeah, I won't name who because they want anonymity, but I've talked to three members of his family in one ongoing and they all, as far as I can tell, want answers. They don't want families to be wondering what happened to their loved ones. I think they take on as much as they emotionally can. Cause it's easy to forget that, you know, his crimes impact his family as much as they impact the families of the people he's harmed. But yeah, everyone I've talked to and everyone I've heard about or heard from, like they want to see the FBI continue looking into this. They want to see closure, they want to see cases get solved. And so yeah, it's been really lovely because I think that's the fear going into this is am I going to hurt these invisible victims? And thank God that hasn't been the case.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

And, and you guys probably have all different opinions, but what do you think is the most fascinating thing about the investigation or about Keys himself? Why not just you, but like you said, all these other shows popping up, what do you think that allure is or what is the lore for you?

[Josh]

For me, which I, I tend to think is probably a, a general allure is everything about this case is, is the opposite of what we're accustomed to. Like we know the killer but not the victims. That there is a modern day serial killer operating in all 50 states where men, women, and children could be targets, and no one even knew he existed till after he was apprehended and dead. I think it brings together a lot of components of true crime into a single case, and then it. The narrative is the exact opposite of how we're used to learning about cases. You know, he committed arsons and burglaries, he murdered people. He planned his crimes well in advance. He was a family man who was adored by his community. I just think in many ways, Keys not only breaks serial killer archetype, but he is the ultimate boogeyman, because any one of us could have been his victims.

[Joshua]

Yeah, the case, for me, it's that the case is so expansive, and we have so much information about his crimes, yet we kind of have nothing. And so there's all these unanswered questions, yet we have thousands of pages of information and hours upon hours of interrogations, yet we still can't answer a lot of the questions.

[Dakota]

And I think for me, it's. He is just the scariest person alive or now dead, but the scariest serial killer ever. Because I've. My wife and I do a lot of backpacking, and it's always been the biggest fear of somebody just attacking our tent in the middle of the woods, and to find that there's somebody out there that was trying to do something very similar, it's just absolutely terrifying to me. But what really sucks me in is that because there is so much information, kind of like I alluded to before, I just feel like if there's. There is a pattern that I think can be solved, and with that, just. It could just be the next piece of big information that blows this whole thing wide open. And I think once you find one more victim, once you find one more cash, one more bank robbery, it just puts another point in the map that can be connected to other points, and you can start to really dive in even further. It's basically just one giant puzzle that we have access to the information to. And I think that's a really intriguing part of it. It really. It really sucks you in once you start getting involved in it.

[Josh]

And I think we all just kind of crossed the Rubicon on that. I think a lot of the cards are about to start falling. Get ready.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

One of the. Thank you all for joining us here in the garage for this special conversation about serial killer Israel Keys. This is part one and part two, make sure you check out true crime bullshit. Wherever you listen to podcasts. For part three and for part four, make sure you check out somewhere in the pines wherever you listen to podcast. And if that's too much to Remember, check out truecrimegarage.com and part three and part four will be on our website. Thank you so much for the support. Thanks for telling people about the garage. Until next week, Be good, be kind, and don't litter.

[Joshua]

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