James Renner (5:01)

For sure. Yeah, it's, it's close quarters. They had a larger room on the eighth floor of the cruise ship. The parents had a bed and then there was a fold out couch that Brad and Amy shared. And sometimes Amy would also sleep on the balcony. The night that she disappeared into that early morning, she was on the balcony sleeping.

Sponsor (5:26)

Yeah.

Nick (5:26)

So let's start on Saturday, March 21st. We have the Bradley family of four boarding the ship. They will embark in Puerto Rico, flying from Virginia to Puerto Rico and then hit the high seas. The ship was bound for several stops in the Caribbean, including carousel. According to FBI.gov on Saturday, March 21, the vessel departed San Juan, Puerto Rico and traveled to its first port of call, the island of Aruba. Day two is Sunday, March 22nd. This is typically, for me anyway, the time when I would really start to explore the ship. And these ships are huge. It's like a high rise building in a shopping mall. Had a big, huge, overweight baby that floats and scoots about in the ocean. Day three, this from the FBI is Monday, March 23rd. They departed Aruba and they were traveling in international waters to the next island port of Carousel. During the early morning hours of Tuesday, March 24, 1998, Amy Lynn Bradley went missing. Now gentlemen, before we get into the known events and timeline of late in the day, March 23rd and the early morning hours of March 24th, let's talk about the complications of investigating a crime that takes place on a cruise ship that is in international waters. James, we'll start with you.

James Renner (6:59)

Oh, it's a headache where people from the United States take for granted the freedoms and protections that they have here in our country. And those don't apply on cruise ships. And it's weird. It's kind of all messed up because of the way that these major cruise lines hide their money for tax purposes. So the ships find a home port and that's where all their, like, that's where they file their taxes and you know, the money kind of loops through that home port. And not a single cruise ship of these major cruise lines like Royal Caribbean Carnival, things like that, none of them consider a United States port their home port. So they're all like weird countries. And at the time, Rhapsody of the Seas was flying the flag of Liberia. So when something goes wrong on the ship, you know, if nothing goes wrong on a cruise ship, you're going to have a great time. On the off chance that something goes terribly wrong on a cruise ship, you're, you're in a lot of trouble because who's investigating that crime it supposed to fall to that home country. Now at the time that Amy went missing, that was Liberia. And Liberia was in the middle of a very violent civil war. So they could care less. Sometimes it falls to the jurisdiction of the port. If you're lucky enough to be close enough to a port in that situation, it's Curacao, which is an island under control of the Netherlands. So the Netherlands had some sort of authority, the Dutch had some sort of authority over it. The FBI had no jurisdiction. But they do have an office in San Juan and that office is kind of in charge of any sort of American citizen getting into trouble in the Caribbean. So they sent out a couple agents, but those agents had to get permission from the cruise line to even enter the ship. And there was. They were very limited in what they could do. If. If they. If they interviewed a suspect in Curacao and he confessed to the crime, they couldn't arrest him on the spot. If they got that lucky, they'd have to get. Have to go through the whole extradition process. And it gets very complicated very quickly. So the first line of defense is the security team aboard the cruise ship. And because of the nature of that, they're beholden to the corporation Royal Caribbean. And what they're looking to do is, you know, cover your ass type of thing. So, yeah, when Amy went missing, the Bradleys found out pretty quickly that there was little to be done in the way of a proper investigation.

Nick (10:04)

This was borderline shocking to me because when the cruises I've gone on went out of Miami, right. So I'm on. I'm on US Soil, stepping onto this boat. The. All the commercials that you see for Caribbean cruises are on American television. They have American names. Yeah, most of the passengers are American. Most the crew appear to be mer American. And then you learn that, no, that there's a lot of reasons that make a whole lot of financial sense for these cruise liners to not have anything really to do with the United States other than picking up a whole bunch of passengers there. Because it's. It's a way to save money, not just on their taxes, but also they can avoid certain. Like other countries don't have the employment laws, rules and regulations that we have. They also can skirt around certain wages for those employees that are on their ships. So it's like everything else, sadly, it comes down to the old bottom line and how much money can you make? And this is just a really good way for them to make a whole bunch of extra money. And what we don't realize boarding that ship is that it's putting us in a vulnerable, more than normal vulnerable situation.

Captain (11:25)

Well, I also think just the size of the ship comes into play and the fact that it is a ship, so it's not just like this wide open building. There's all these nooks and crannies because you have to be creative when you're coming up with storage solutions. And then I think the other. The other thing in play here is the staff. Like James said, these. This staff, this is their livelihood. And so they have to protect that in some capacity. But also there's some very strict rules for these staff members. And so let's just say you, you did hook up with a guest on the ship, but you took them to your room. Well, that's grounds for firing. So if something bad happens to them and let's say you're not involved at all, there's reasons to lie and protect yourself if you did something that would cause you to lose your career.

James Renner (12:29)

The majority of the staff, at least on the Rhapsody of the Seas comes from, they come from other countries around the world. There is several from India, many from the Caribbean Islands themselves and they're, they go on these tours that are like, you know, six months or so and then they go back home and the money they make in those six months is equivalent to like a couple years worth of salary for a menial job back in their home country. So it's very important for them that they, that they not get fired. But yeah, if they do get caught, for instance, hooking up with a passenger, that's, that's immediate and automatic dismissal, even.

Nick (13:12)

If the passenger gave a five star review.

Captain (13:14)

But I've had a lot of friends that have gone on these cruise ships because you don't have to pay room and board and your meals are taken care of and then things like alcohol or cigarettes, you get those at a discounted cost. So it was a way for a lot of my musician friends to get out of college, do six months to, to maybe a year on a cruise ship to save up a bunch of money and so they could come back to the States and, and move to New York or Nashville or LA to start their music careers.

Nick (13:50)

Day three Detailed information here. This from the Richmond Times. So at the Aruba stop, Amy and her brother Brad spent some time ashore and later visited the ship's nightclub, the Calypso Lounge. Amy was seen dancing with members of the band. Their band name is Blue Orchid. Especially a crew member named or nicknamed Yellow. This is one of the band's members, the bass player, real name is Alistair Douglas, but better known to everyone, especially after this documentary as Yellow. He was seen drinking and dancing with Amy Bradley. So the two, this is brother and sister. Amy and Brad stayed up late dancing and drinking at the disco party on the ninth floor deck. Multiple sources confirmed that Amy was drinking and smoking but not heavily intoxicated that night. The photo, the now infamous formal photo. This is the one where we see it on the documentary. I've seen it on other shows, I've seen it all over the Internet well before the documentary came out. This is of Amy standing solo in a black, a very nice, regal looking Black dress. This, I guess, would be at the formal dinner. And if you go digging a little bit more, you can see photos of her standing with her brother Brad, who's in a tuxedo. These are, from my understanding, the photos that the crew, the cruise ship takes and they will try to sell them to you later. Like I. These are the photos that I hate taking because usually there's somebody there directing you and they're like, oh, stand closer. You know, hold her like this. Or you know, use. Stand there with this posture in, in a manner that I would never stand. But it's the photo that we see a lot throughout the documentary and that is known well to everybody listening to this. This photo, from my understanding, guys, was taken approximately 12 hours before she disappeared. So this would make sense that this would be around dinner time on that day. Some of the very key details here that we will get into this was compiled from a few different sources. So we have tab.com and from a Reddit thread. So tab.com reporting their timeline is according to ship records and family accounts. And then the Reddit post. The post is Amy Bradley is missing. Cutting through Netflix's narrative is compiled from multiple sources. So we kind of mash those two together to come up with this. We are at Tuesday, March 24, here in the small hours at around 1am to 1:30am Amy and Brad are still at the club. Ship photographers snap pictures of Amy dancing. This account states that these photos later appeared in the ship's gift shop without the family's consent. This statement from the FBI files, Yellow later claimed that he left this party, left the disco around this time. And again, that's 1 to 1:30am this next one, guys, is new to me, but it was on one of the timelines that I found. And it states that at 3:30am Ron Bradley, so this is Amy's father, reportedly checked on Amy and Brad, who were still at the disco and walked them back to their cabin. This is published and it's according to where I found it, according to family statements. It doesn't seem to ring true with what's on the documentary.

James Renner (17:36)

So, yeah, the timeline is a little wonky because of, of how things have been reported and when they've been reported. And over 27 years, it's, it's changed a little bit. I've been reporting and researching the story for about a year and a half, working on a book on the case that'll come out next summer. I met with the Bradleys at their home in Virginia last summer, spent I Think five or six hours with them. We spoke for a while and then we had lunch. Ivan made some very nice pulled pork sandwiches and, and then we talked some more. And at that time what I was told is that yeah, around 3:30, Amy and Brad were still at the, the discotheque up at the Viking Lounge at the, the back of the ship. And that's when they decided to come back to the room. And Brad's key card shows that he entered about exactly 3:30 and then Amy came in five minutes later. Now at no point during the hours and hours of conversation with the Bradleys did they mention that Ron, their father, came up and checked with them, which is odd. And that's not at all to suggest the family had anything to do with what ultimately happened. But I'm a little disappointed that that wasn't mentioned at the time. The reason we found out about that is some Redditors have dug up early, early newspaper reports and that's how we, and then Brad himself has, has talked about this on Tick Tock since the, those newspaper reports were found. And that's how we learned that that Ron, their father woke up, I think it was closer to 3am and came up to the disco. I don't believe he even talked to Amy. I think he talked to Brad and said, hey look, it's, it's late. Why don't you guys come come down to bed. And then Ron went down and then about 20 minutes to a half an hour later, Brad and Amy came, came down. So that's kind of how that played out. So there's some discrepancy too about Alistair Douglas, who was the bass player for Blue Orchid. He was up there, he's caught on video. Actually there was a videographer up there who was taking B roll for a corporate event where another business, VanStar, brought a bunch of their employees on the cruise and hired this videographer to take like what he called Happy Face videos so that anybody from that corporation could have this video after the cruise and see what a great time they had. So he just accidentally happened to catch images of Yellow and Amy dancing in the, the disco and, and first they're dancing kind of far apart, but then after a time they're very, very close together and Alistair's kind of grinding on her from behind, which, you know, the, the 90s kids, what we would call twerking, I guess. And so they were very close. He says he came down at one, but it's, I think his key card shows that he came back to his room a lot later than that. So yeah, there's some. And he should not have have been up there and should not have been dancing so close as he was actually considered an officer on the cruise ship because of his position with the band. So he had a, he, he had a pretty decent room but he shared it with a guy named Oscar Alexander. So you know, he, he had a roommate that was there when he checked back into his room. But if he would have been caught by, you know, a higher ranking officer, he would have been in some trouble. Or you're allowed to socialize with, with passengers, but you're not allowed to like, like fraternize with them. You're not certainly not allowed to twerk with them.

Nick (21:25)

So you're, you're encouraged to socialize with them because the whole, what you're selling is fun. You're selling the experience and you want, you don't want somebody sitting there bored like, oh, I had to read a magazine the whole time because there was nothing to do. And some people just aren't overly social or have a hard time getting into the mix of things. And you can disarm them and really get people into the vibe if just by. Hey, how's it going? Oh, you having a good time? There's dance over here and yeah. So I think that there are, there's a high percentage of truths in these, these following statements and things that I know you've already covered, but from the timeline in front of me says:3:30am Ron Bradley reportedly checked on Amy and Brad. Okay.

James Renner (22:08)

I think it was a little bit before that, but yeah, yeah.

Nick (22:11)

So around that time he's checking in and as you said, probably just communication with Brad, touch base with him. And you're right, like these two, Amy and Brad are in their early 20s. One thing that I've learned, the older I get on vacations or you know, you go on a golf trip with the boys, the amateurs, they go very hard night one or they go very hard night two or three and then they are spent for the rest of the trip. They are no good the rest of the trip. And this is dad just checking in like, hey guys, it's late. And these, these cruise liners, they have a whole bunch of fun stuff that you can do during the daytime. So it's in your best interest not to sleep the day away. And Yeah, I have 3:30 to 3:38. Brad returns to the family cabin. Now one thing that is very interesting and really will turn some speculation into absolute fact is that we have his key card entry right each Passenger has a key card and when they go to get back into their room, they have to put that key card into the door. And that is going to trigger a catalog. It's, it's going to catalog his return to the room. And then Amy. All reports stay that like you said there, James, she was roughly about five minutes behind her brother that she enters their room. And then at some point the two of them, brother and sister, are sitting having a nice night together, talking on the balcony. But Brad goes to bed before Amy and Amy decides to stay out on the balcony for some time long.

Captain (23:50)

How long were they out on the balcony for together?

James Renner (23:54)

Well, the report is that what Brad has said is that when he came back, he did go out to the balcony and they talked for a little bit and then he went to bed and she stayed on the balcony. And then her father says he Woke up around 5:30 in the morning and saw that Amy was still sitting on the balcony and decided to go back to sleep. Wakes up about a half an hour later around 6, and she's gone. And, and then he immediately starts to search for her. At first he thinks she's gone up to like a higher deck to grab a smoke or to see the ship pull into Curacao because they have to go up this channel under a huge bridge and then up to the dock. So he thought maybe she'd gone up to take some pictures and grab a smoke, but he couldn't find her up there.

Captain (24:53)

So on the chair in the room, we find this yellow shirt that she was wearing. So we, we feel like she came back to the cabin, she took off her shirt, but she had a white undershirt on, she had jeans on or jean capris. And then she has these sandals. I'm guessing she is wearing the sandals when she's at the nightclub, but those sandals are also found on the balcony as well.

James Renner (25:20)

So that, that's, that's the crux of the mystery. And you know, the, the big question is what happened? Where did she go from there? And in some ways this is, this is why this, this case attracted me. Because like the Maura Murray case, the disappearance of Maura Murray, there's so many possibilities of, of what happened. According to everybody, everybody's different stories. Did she even, did she even leave the balcony? Did she go overboard with, did she fall? Did she intentionally go over the side? And then if she did leave the, the room, what happened to her then? Was it foul play? Was it, was it walk away? I mean, every possibility is, is technically still on the TABLE.

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Nick (31:28)

Yeah and so the, the reports I have fall in line with what you're saying there, James. It's, it's sometime in that 5 to 5:30, 30am dad wakes up and he says in his statements that he recognized two things. Brad is sleeping in the room and from what he can see Amy is lying down outside. I think he says something like he could see her leg through the glass door and he's thinking that she's laying positioned as that she would be lying down on the chair out there or you know, some fixture out there. And then wakes up approximately 30 minutes to maybe even 45 minutes later and then notices that Amy was gone back to what the captain was Questioning earlier that all reports I've seen, including the Netflix information, was that according to Brad, they sat out there talking that night for anywhere from about 25 minutes to maybe 45 minutes before he goes to bed. She stays inside or she.

James Renner (32:33)

Later on the balcony. Yeah, yeah.

Nick (32:35)

Stays on the balcony. And then later, Ron wakes up and says that her sandals are still there, her room key is still there. Balcony door is slightly ajar. He noticed that Amy's cigarettes and lighter were missing.

Captain (32:52)

But also, don't they find her wallet as well?

Nick (32:55)

I think they found everything but Amy, the clothes on her back and her cigarettes and lighter.

James Renner (33:00)

Not to jump too far ahead, but you did mention what I think becomes a very important clue there, which is that the balcony door was ajar when Amy was missing. The family seems to think that she left the cabin without waking them up. If you've ever been on a cruise ship, which I think we all have, inside the room are notices. And you learn this through experience, too, that you're not supposed to open the cabin door with the balcony door open because the air in the hallway is pressurized. And what happens when you have the balcony door open and you open that cabin door is a vacuum. And it creates a wind tunnel through the room that is very loud. And in fact, it causes the cabin door to slam shut. And there are reports of crew members who have opened the cabin door to clean, and the balcony door was open, and it slams the door shut so hard they've lost a finger in the door. So I'm. That, to me, is a very important clue. That, to me, suggests that she did not leave the cabin that morning. You know, other people will argue. Well, they're. You know, the. The ship's going very slow up the canal, if, in fact, that's where they were at the time. And so the. The. It wouldn't be so much of a. An issue. But I don't. I don't know that. That I necessarily buy that.

Captain (34:40)

Yeah. The FBI says to this day, there's no proof that she left. One of my problems with that and not my problem with the FBI. The FBI, especially these two agents, would know way more about this than any of us. When the FBI gets onto the cruise ship, we go, we're looking for Amy. She's not in this room. Let's search every nook and cranny. Nope, she's not here. So now let's go look at security footage. And nowhere on the documentary do they tell you how many cameras or anything. But the cruises I've been on, there's been a decent amount of security cameras. So one would think, if we know where her room was and we can just assume that she got out of the room and that she was going to get off at port, there would be only so many locations that she would then pop out from. If she went down the hallway to the left, she would have been picked up on this camera. Or if she went to the elevator and got off at floor number four, we would see her on this camera. So to me, and they. They don't really dive into this in. In the documentary. But how much was that footage investigated right there?

James Renner (36:00)

There were, you know, it's 1998, so there weren't as many cameras then as there are now. From my understanding, there were not cameras that would have been focused on the sides of the ship to show if she fell off the balcony. But you're right, there were definitely cameras in, like, the main pool area, which is. It's usually where you would cross over to, like, the breakfast area, where this edelweiss dining hall, you have to kind of pass. An easy way to get there is to pass through the pool area. So there are a number of common areas that have cameras. And if the FBI is saying they have no proof she ever left that room, that, to me, says she was not on. Caught on camera in any of these common areas. So that idea that she went up to the decks and to see the ship pulling into port doesn't really work because she. She definitely would have been caught on camera somewhere. And also, the debarkation area certainly had cameras showing people coming on and off. And it appears that she. She wasn't on those either.

Nick (37:13)

But at the same time, they're saying we don't have proof that she. Something happened to her on the balcony or that she went over board as well.

James Renner (37:23)

Right.

Nick (37:24)

It's kind of, you know, they're. They're a little bit forced to deal with somewhat in absolutes where they're like, you know, until. Until we find the body, we don't even know that she's dead. Until we have evidence that this occurred, we don't know that anything happened. And I feel like the door ajar is one of those. It's one of those line items in any story, not just this one, Any story that I absolutely hate. Why? Because the only person that's. The only person that saw this was her father. Could he be misremembering? Yes. Slightly a jar. I hate that. What kind of description is that? Yeah, slightly a jar. Those sliding glass doors. It's so easy to not close them all the way. Slightly ajar could mean that it's open half an inch or it could mean it's open three feet.

James Renner (38:17)

Yeah, yeah.

Nick (38:18)

Amy's family does not believe that she committed suicide, that she jumped off of that balcony, that she jumped into the water. They don't believe that while I am on their side, if that is they're hurting, they lost a loved one. They want to find out what happened to their loved one. And I agree with their statements that they don't think that she jumped off the side of that. That balcony. I don't find everything that's been presented to me about Amy's character tells me that that's not a high possibility, not a high percentage. On.

Captain (38:55)

I agree with you, but I disagree with this idea. And we see this in a lot of true crime cases or missing person cases where they go, she absolutely wasn't suicidal. Well, she doesn't have to be leading up to six months before that day.

Nick (39:13)

Correct.

Sponsor (39:14)

She could have.

Captain (39:14)

She could have been having depressed thoughts.

Nick (39:19)

In that 60 seconds.

Captain (39:20)

Right. And her brother Brad is saying, hey, she was afraid of heights. She won't even get near the rail.

Nick (39:26)

So that's the part that steers me away from the idea that she would have jumped in and look, jump in with. There were other people that said that, something to the effect of, well, she was a really good swimmer. And didn't somebody say, like, she was going to jump in and swim to port before the boat could get there?

James Renner (39:43)

Yes, she was overheard by a witness, I think, maybe even at the disco. But sometime that. That evening, saying, making a joke about when she saw the lights of Curacao, she was going to jump because she thought she could swim there faster than the. Then the boat could get there.

Nick (40:02)

Yeah.

Captain (40:02)

And I think there's just a lot more possibilities. Let's just say she was depressed in that moment and decides, hey, I'm going to jump off the boat. So then she jumps off the boat and okay, she committed suicide. She's dead. And then. But there could be all these other things. Like, what if she had a moment of weakness and decided to jump off the boat and then by the time she hits the water, she goes, hey, I don't want to die, and I swim ashore. Or is it as simple as she told somebody, I'm going to jump off the boat. But I've been on those boats to be on the eighth level. That's pretty high up. You might not be so worried about swimming to the port, but to me, you'd be more worried about the fall.

James Renner (40:55)

You know, one statistic that I. I thought was pretty shocking, that I learned while researching the story, is once you go over the side of a cruise ship, whether it's on purpose or accident, and no matter how decent of a swimmer you are, the chance of survival once you're in that water is 20%, which is shocking. You know, even you would think that once. Once you're over, you know, because of the. The currents, because of the water, because, you know, you fall down, sometimes people get sucked under the boat and into the propeller, and then you're gone. You know, the chance of survival is very, very low. Many people say that Amy was not suicidal, and that's probably true. But she was, at that moment in her life in a very stressful situation, because when she came home from that cruise, she had a very important decision to make, and that was to either live her life the way she wanted to be, which is open and gay, which is how she identified. She identified as gay, she identified as lesbian. She did not identify as. By. With her friends. So she had just gotten back together with her girlfriend, Molly. And so when she came home, she could either live that life, and she felt that if she did, she would disappoint her conservative parents.

Captain (42:29)

Right?

James Renner (42:30)

And that family was very, very tight, but they did not support Amy being gay. Or she could continue to, you know, go against her nature and try to date men to appease, you know, to make things calm and easy. So she. There were. There was a lot going on inside her mind at that time. She was changing jobs. She had just moved into an apartment. This is a very stressful moment in her life. And, Captain, I think you were touching a little bit on this idea. She doesn't have to be suicidal to be on that balcony and feel that urgent. It's what the French. There's a fancy French term called lapel du vide, but in English, we call it the call of the void. Even Freud talked about this, you know, 100 years ago. He called it the oceanic feeling. When you're. When you're faced with, you know, that infinite horizon of the ocean, there is this kind of call that you feel on a very instinctual level. And so I wonder if she wasn't sitting out there and the thought came in her mind, well, let me just see. Let me see what happens. You know, by taking that action, by going over the railing, she would have been forcing some sort of decision. You know, this is going to, you know, either be the ultimate solution, which is which is death or you know, it's going to cause action and you know, I don't know. Would they accept her in the face of, you know, we almost lost her but now she's living? I don't know. But you know, it's just that idea that this decision is going to cause some sort of action, some sort of decision and my life at least won't be the way it is at this moment.

Captain (44:22)

Yeah, I agree with you. I mean when watching your interview with Yellow, I think he points out some interesting things and I think later we can dive deeper into that interview. But he's saying she's chain smoking. I believe her bar tab was seven beers, seven light beers. And I think that started at 6pm so that's not a ton of drinks. But I think one of the things we're not taking into account is there's not that many young people on this cruise ship.

James Renner (44:59)

Yeah, that's true too. Also consider this, you know, the, the beverages that they're counting are the beverages that she bought herself.

Captain (45:10)

Exactly.

James Renner (45:11)

How often are, you know, how often do men buy women the drinks that they're having throughout the course of the night?

Nick (45:19)

A 23 year old females going to get some free drinks.

Captain (45:23)

Well, and I think that that's another thing that the family is saying, hey look, the wait staff was just paying her a lot of attention. I think a lot of that had to do with, well, the staff is normally of a younger age and she's one of not many 20 some attractive females on that cruise ship. So again, how many drinks did she have?

James Renner (45:47)

Right.

Captain (45:48)

Don't know. And I don't think that's something we'll ever know and that alters your mind state. And I think as much as the parents want to say, well part of us not being okay with her living a gay lifestyle or being gay is, well it was the 90s and so I do sympathize with them on that. But they also make, I think interesting statements. If she was engaged to be married and she always talked about wanting to have kids and blah, blah, blah, maybe you would say, you know, we didn't get to share certain experiences with our daughter, we're never going to meet our grandkids. Especially in the 90s, not every state could you even get married to have a gay marriage, let alone to be able to adopt kids or have kids in another way. So I, I find that statement by them to me, as much as people can look at this story and go, well, she was openly gay and yes, her parents weren't supportive, but that's not that big of a deal. I think there's little statements that they say during the documentaries almost 30 years later that you go, no, no, this was a huge deal in Amy's life.

James Renner (47:12)

It was, you know, and I waited until the end of our interview to even bring it up. Iva Bradley was very helpful in getting me in touch with one of Amy's good friends. And, you know, even during that conversation, you know, it didn't come up that Amy was gay. And I had to do some more digging on my own to find her other friends who were supportive of her being gay. And those sources were not given to me by the family. And there was an effort to keep that information from seeing the light of day. I knew at the time Netflix was doing a documentary. We were kind of overlapping on our sources and chasing after the of source, same information. And I had a conversation with their producer when I found out that Amy was gay. And I, you know, we talked about how they were going to handle it because they, they found the same information I did around the same time. And, you know, we, we talked about how to come at it respectfully as, as best we can. But I was the first one to bring it up with the family. And Iva did not want that in there. She didn't want it known in either my book or the documentary. She said it had nothing to do with anything. That it was, you know, it doesn't matter. And I do think it's, I think it could be the crux of actually what happened to Amy. I think it does relate to whatever happened to her.

Nick (48:48)

Well, when you have so many possibilities still sitting on the table, some of those being she walked off and started a new life. One of those being she jumped off the side of a boat, you have to keep that in mind because that's something that is real. That's something that's going on in her life at that time. That's something that's going on her, in her family and in her mind constantly. I was a little surprised, I mean, with the time period. I think part of that being, you know, growing up in Columbus, Ohio, especially In the late 90s, early aughts, we had a much higher gay population than most major cities. So it's, it seemed like a little, I don't know, I hate to say, use the word normal, but going back to 98, 99, that's the word I would have used. But I think the captain is absolutely right. When you hear mom say something like, well, we didn't even get to experience our grandkids. To me, that's not just, well, we're not okay with this. This is refusing to accept it. Yeah, right. Like if you lose a leg, you don't get over it. You don't get over losing your leg. You learn to accept it. And those that don't learn to accept it, they're, they have a whole different life than anybody else. This is refusing to accept it. This to me implies that it's mom and dad having a conversation. And if they choose to share that information with anybody else, the conversation is this. Well, it's probably just a phase. You know, she was off at college and you know, she'll, she'll grow out of this. She'll get into the real world. And that's what I gather from this, that a statement like we didn't get to experience our grandkids.

James Renner (50:31)

I think you're absolutely right.

Captain (50:32)

That's why I was telling you earlier. James, I really do think these interviews that you've been putting out on your YouTube channel are so important because here we are, we're in the garage, three white, mostly straight men, mostly white, mostly straight men, mostly white, mostly straight men talking about this young 20 some year old woman coming out to the world in the 90s. And I really think your interview with Kat, a woman that Amy had a relationship with, is very important to understand this, this conflict in Amy's life because I couldn't imagine how much relief one would feel by just saying this is who I am, this is my sexuality and this is how I want to live and, and how much pride they should have in coming out and how, and how freeing it would be and hoping that your support system then doubles down the love on you where she had individuals in her life going, okay, finally she's going to live her best life and be her best self and her truest self. But then you have this big support system of her family going, we're not all okay with this and be hush hush about this. I mean I'm sure that she even was told by her family like, well we support you and we love you, but we might want to not tell everybody in the family about this.

Nick (52:15)

Well, and that, that's why I was coming down so hard on the statement of why I woke up and I noticed that the balcony door was slightly ajar. And then I noticed Amy was missing because to me what I'm, what I'm pointing out here is just like with her coming out, okay, we've, we've all seen it, experienced it. At some point, I believe, I know I have, I can't speak for the both of you, but at some point in our lives, a friend comes out, they talk to their parents. It's sometimes it's mom or dad reacting and going, I just don't know where we went wrong. We, you know, we had a nice house, we grew up at, you know, we raised her in a nice neighborhood. We raised him in a, sent him off to nice schools and we did everything we could. Where. What did I do wrong? You know, they, they look inward and they blame themselves for something that's really not a problem. And to me, I think let's double down on the idea of child commits suicide. They're, they're naturally going to think that as well. And if this is the reaction to her coming out, I, I guess what I'm is a really long winded way of me saying that. That statement, I have an issue with it because it seems like it aligns with mom and dad's best interest that Amy left the room walking out the front door rather than jumping off the balcony and the door, the balcony glass door being slightly open is an indicator that she came back into the room and left. However, the flip side of that coin is this is not a dumb kid. If her room key remained inside that room, I can make up a million reasons why she left that room. The hurdle that's hard for me to clear is her room key being in there. If that, if that part of the statement is factual and true, I think that's more suggestive that something else happened.

James Renner (54:05)

I, I do want to say, you know, since we brought up Kat, just a, a couple things that I thought were interesting that, that Kat talked about. You know, Kat was her partner throughout college, or at least for a time in college. They started out as friends and then roommates and, and then it became, you know, something more. And you know, Kat still has love for her after all these years. It was her first love. Amy was. And you know, they were very close for a time. And you know, Kat talks about staying with Amy's family one summer and, you know, had to keep everything on the down low. She also says she loves the Bradleys. They're a very tight family that, you know, and that's one thing, when you meet the Bradleys, they really pull you in. You, you, you feel the love there. You know, there is kind of that disconnect with, you know, if you go on the social media and see the types of things that come up on IVA or Brad's page, I mean, they're, they're deep, deep into MAGA culture. And you know, there are some homophobic things that have popped up on Brad's social media accounts and what I would call, you know, over the line things. And especially if Amy is out there still living and she sees those social media posts, I, I wouldn't know what she was thinking or how that would affect her. But, you know, Kat talks about specifically Amy's identity and you know, the, the family said over and over, oh, she was bi. She was bi. That's what she told us. And you know, I, you know, in some way, I think that's trying to downplay her sexuality, you know, soften the.

Sponsor (55:45)

Blow a little bit.

Nick (55:46)

She was, she knew it was going to be difficult. You know, she wasn't looking forward to having that.

James Renner (55:51)

No. And, and so it came out in college that their, their secret was kind of exposed through their friends and they realized that word was probably going to get back and so they had to come out to their families. And, you know, so they both, Kat and Amy went back home one weekend and Kat told her family and the reaction they got, she got was essentially like, yeah, okay. But Amy went home and it was very difficult. And her father wrote this three page letter about how disappointed he was, which he sent to Kat and that really affected Kat. That really hurt her.

Captain (56:28)

But that's freaking bizarre.

James Renner (56:30)

Yeah.

Captain (56:30)

In high school and college, if I broke up with somebody and I was a little down, my mother or father was, you know, they go, oh, yeah, I'm sorry, you're down. I'm sorry it didn't work out. But I had a conversation with my dad one time where he's like, I feel bad for you. And you know, you just kind of, you know, every day you wake up, it's going to get better. And then he said, then he asked me what was her name again. And so the fact that he and I understand that Kat stayed with them for a time period, but it's bizarre to write a three page letter to Cat to explain your thoughts and feelings on this matter.

Nick (57:15)

Again, it's an indicator that they are refusing to accept that this is who she may be. They're looking at it more as something, as something she is experiencing or going through. And a lot of outside persons or players have, have their hands on the reins of, of what she's going through.

Captain (57:34)

And we don't know what kind of conversations the parents were having with her. If you're going to do something so bizarre as to write a Three page letter. And I'm gonna, like Ross Geller would say front and back, but you go, what is he saying to his daughter? What is the mother saying to the daughter? Are you. Is, is it a situation that every time they're around her, they're trying to convince her to live a different lifestyle? And so when you have in one interview, Yellow, the bass player of the cruise ship band, saying, well, she was saying how she didn't really want to come on the trip, is that because this issue hasn't been ironed out? And did she feel like, well, if we're on this, Cruz, are the parents going to try to convince me otherwise, to live otherwise? And one of the things I find interesting, and I love your take on this, James. To me, you have to connect the dots and you have to. There has to be some story that makes some sense. And so I think sometimes with these family members, obviously they want the, their loved one to still be alive and to still be out there. A lot of the stories, like just a simple one of, okay, well, maybe she did go out of the room and decide that she was going to go off port, go off the boat, go on the island and maybe try to get some marijuana and. And then you'll have the family go, absolutely not.

James Renner (59:17)

This is a family that's very wrapped up in the image that remains of Amy. And I can understand that because she's gone, even if she's alive, that Amy they knew is long gone. Long gone. And so they're protecting her legacy and her image and they want to portray her as. As great as they possibly can. So I think when you get into the idea that she might have gotten off to get drugs or gotten wrapped up in something like that, they're very protective of that. And, you know, they. You mentioned these sightings, and to this day, the Bradleys believe she is alive, that she was forced into some situation beyond her control. Human trafficking and the Netflix documentary brought that up and, you know, did their narrative in a way to make it seem more likely, I think, than it actually is. But there are a number of these sightings of her that occur after the disappearance on Curacao and also these pictures that show up on an escort website out of Margarita island years later. So they believe that these sightings are legitimate and they're hanging a lot of hope on that fact.

Captain (60:50)

Well, we've seen this with a lot of missing person cases. My deep dive into the Brian Schaefer case. His father was trying to control the narrative that distorts the actual details of this person and hinders people looking into investigating what happened or could have happened. And I think the same thing happened in Amy's case of. I think the same thing happened in Mars case as well. And. But I don't fault the family. I don't want to seem like I'm just piling on the family because I'm. I understand why they're doing it, if they're even conscious that they're doing it, because I. I think sometimes it's not like they're the family sitting behind this wall of secrecy and, and masterminding some plan.

Nick (61:40)

Yeah, I think it's. And we'll move on here. But I think it's a bit human nature because for the parents, especially the parents, but also for loved ones and people that are very close to the person that vanishes, that person is frozen in time for them.

James Renner (61:56)

Right.

Nick (61:56)

Kind of like what James was talking about, that this is 27 years later. Brad is, you know, well into his 40s. The parents are, are probably in their late 60s, mid-60s by this. And so for them, some stuff has moved on and some things in their lives have changed, obviously. But for them, their loved one is frozen in time. And whatever was going on in that loved one's life around the time of their disappearance is such a small percentage of what they know that person to be for the entirety of the life that they knew them for. And so I think they weigh and lean toward the majority of their experience and understanding of that person rather than what was going on right at that time. And in that short time leading up to their disappearance, Sa.