Brian Shaffer Interview ////// 770

Summary

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True Crime Garage – Brian Shaffer Interview ////// 770

Release Date: July 2, 2024
Hosts: Nic and the Captain
Special Guests: Sgt. John Hurst (Retired Columbus Police, lead investigator)
Interviewers: The Captain & Maggie Freeling

Episode Overview

This episode is a rare, in-depth interview with retired Detective Sergeant John Hurst, who led the investigation into the famous and still-unsolved disappearance of Brian Shaffer, an Ohio State medical student who vanished after a night out at the Ugly Tuna Saloona bar in 2006. The episode provides behind-the-scenes details from Detective Hurst, sheds light on persistent theories, rumors, the investigation’s challenges, and explores why the case continues to haunt Columbus and the broader true crime community.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Disappearance of Brian Shaffer

• Background: Brian, a 27-year-old OSU medical student, disappeared in the early morning hours of April 1, 2006, after being separated from friends at the Ugly Tuna Saloona. Notably, security cameras never captured him leaving.
• Personal Details: He was planning a Miami trip with his girlfriend, Alexis Wagner, which raised a red flag when he missed his flight.

Detective Hurst’s Involvement and Early Steps

• How Hurst Got the Case: He was covering the missing persons unit while the usual sergeant was on vacation (07:18–07:45).
• Early Steps: Family contacted police after Brian missed his flight and was presumed missing. Investigators quickly ruled out simple explanations like a change in travel plans or purchase of an engagement ring (09:59–11:10).
• Red Flag: “That was a big red flag for us... planning a nice trip... possibly going to get engaged... That was a big red flag for us when... that occurred.” – John Hurst (10:13)

Family, Friends, and Cooperation

• Cooperation: Most friends and family cooperated fully; notably, friend Clint Florence declined a polygraph and later took the Fifth before a grand jury (12:06–12:43).
• Clint's Role: Clint’s reluctance led to suspicion, although Hurst emphasizes that “innocent people lawyer up, guilty people lawyer up” (14:17).

“Even if you're innocent, don't take the polygraph.” – John Hurst (13:07)

The Security Footage & Ugly Tuna Saloona Layout

• Camera Limitations: While most bar entrances/exits were covered by cameras, there were construction areas with vulnerable access (16:29–17:40).
• Video Review: Detective Andre Edwards painstakingly tracked all comings and goings on security footage “except for Brian” (16:57–17:40).
• Speculation Dismissed: The area had numerous theories, including the “orange shirt guy” (taxi driver tracked and cleared) and rumors about the band playing that night (17:42–18:47).

“There’s no doubt in my mind he left the bar.” – John Hurst (46:39)

• Cadaver Dogs/Searches: Bar, surrounding construction, and rooftops were thoroughly checked with dogs and by hand; nothing found (18:47–19:40).
• No Evidence of Being in the Bar: Hurst does not consider it feasible that Brian is hidden in the bar’s walls or was concealed inside (19:40).

Theories and Dead Ends

• Possible Exits: Multiple construction exits, fire escapes with limited security camera coverage; plausible Brian left unseen (16:29–17:40; 33:27–33:37).
• Construction Accident Theory: Ruled out—no freshly poured concrete or other suspicious sites in construction zones (33:38–33:49).
• Falling in Dumpster: Hurst’s leading theory: Brian exited, overly intoxicated, possibly fell into a dumpster which was later emptied at a landfill (39:54–41:49).

“He may have been throwing up [in a dumpster], and... passed out and fell in. That's a possibility.” – John Hurst (41:53)

• Search of Landfills: Cadaver dogs hit on "typical stuff" but nothing conclusive (39:54–41:19).

Internet Rumors and Speculation

• False Leads: From psychic tips to “Brian is alive in the Virgin Islands,” nothing credible ever checked out (22:20–24:05).
• Family Disputes & Will: Rumors of life insurance/money conflicts between Brian and his father Randy were mostly unsubstantiated (25:25–26:45).
• Brian’s Sexuality: Verified as a topic considered in the investigation—Brian reportedly “experimented,” but nothing suggesting that ties to his disappearance (35:18–35:36; 37:30).

“We did check his computers to see if maybe he had done some online searching [about starting a new life or suicide]. There was nothing out of the ordinary.” – John Hurst (36:53)

• Running Away Theory: Searched for evidence Brian started a new life; no signs detected—passport, credit history, possessions untouched (36:53–38:02).
• Pearl Jam Tickets: Investigation reached out to concert venues and crowds in case Brian surfaced (38:40).

The Role of Clint Florence

• Unanswered Questions: Clint’s refusal to take a polygraph and answer further questions remains a major frustration for investigators (12:06–14:44).
• Relationship Speculation: Some testimony speculates Brian and Clint may have had a romantic or unusually close friendship; possibly why Clint does not talk (43:47–44:18).
• Clint as Key: Hurst believes Clint, being close to Brian, “would probably have known that if there was a plan for Brian to leave that night” (44:49).

Police Work & Emotional Toll

• Case Frustration: Hurst describes it as “very frustrating... no matter what you did, you still didn’t get any answers” (48:16).

“No matter what you’ve tried... you still didn’t get any answers. And to leave and still not have any answers, it was very frustrating. And still frustrating.” – John Hurst (48:16)

• Possibility for Closure: If Brian is alive and comes forward, police would protect his privacy and simply notify family (49:32).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Theories:
  “I quit reading [online theories] because I just shake my head. I'm like, man, you know, this is crazy.” – John Hurst (34:52)

• On Polygraphs:
  “In this day and age, if you hire an attorney and there may be even some police officers out there tell you, probably, even if you're innocent, don't take the polygraph.” – John Hurst (13:07)

• On the Bar Search:
  “We had dogs come in, cadaver dogs... when we were done, the building was clean. There wasn't anybody in there.” – John Hurst (18:47)

• On Running Away:
  “It’s not impossible, but it’s not the easiest thing to do either.” – John Hurst (35:57)

• On Hope for Resolution:
  "I would love somebody, even if they did it anonymously, you know, to come forward." – John Hurst (48:56)

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Key Timestamps

• 07:10: Hurst introduces his background and how he got the case
• 09:30: Hurst’s initial reaction and first investigative actions
• 12:06: Clint Florence's cooperation and polygraph refusal
• 16:29: Security camera theories and possible unseen exits
• 18:47: Detailed discussion of physical searches/cadaver dogs
• 22:20: Discussion of false leads, psychic tips, and FBI involvement
• 25:25: Rumors about Brian’s family, finances, and life insurance
• 33:38: Construction accident theory addressed and dismissed
• 34:17: Probability Brian left the bar and got in trouble later
• 35:18: Rumors about Brian’s sexuality investigated
• 36:53: Search of Brian’s digital activity for clues of running away
• 39:54: Dumpster accident theory explained
• 43:47: Further discussion of Clint Florence’s possible motivation for silence
• 46:39: Final confidence: “There’s no doubt in my mind he left the bar”
• 48:16: Hurst on frustration and emotional impact of the unsolved case
• 49:32: How police would handle if Brian was found alive

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Conclusions & Final Thoughts

• No Proof of Foul Play or Voluntary Disappearance: Despite extensive investigation, physical searches, and national attention, investigators found no evidence supporting foul play, suicide, or Brian intentionally starting a new life.
• Most Likely Theory: Brian left the bar—possibly through a construction exit not covered by cameras—and accidentally died, possibly due to heavy intoxication leading to a fatal mishap such as falling into a dumpster.
• No Closure: Despite exhaustive efforts, the case remains unsolved, and the lead investigator acknowledges it’s “very frustrating” to leave policing without answers. However, the extensive legwork and transparency of the investigation are evident throughout the episode.

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For tips on Brian Shaffer or any related missing persons case:

Contact Columbus Division of Police Investigative Desk:
614-645-4624

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Final Note: If you’re fascinated by unresolved mysteries, this episode demonstrates the complicated interplay of evidence, public speculation, and investigative diligence surrounding the Brian Shaffer case, and offers rare direct insight from its principal detective.

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Transcript

[Narrator/Advertiser]

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[Host Sam]

Sam.

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

Foreign.

[Host Nick]

Welcome to True Crime Garage wherever you are, whatever you were doing, thanks for listening. I'm your host Nick and with me, as always, is a man who knows that it's never too late to not pay your taxes. Here is the Captain.

[Host Sam]

It's good to be seen and good to see you. Thanks for listening. Thanks for telling a friend.

[Host Nick]

This week we are featuring Henna Chocolate Praline macaroon by the delectable and creative folks over at Moore Brewing Company. The folks that Moore like to drink sweet and eat spicy in this beer. Henna is absolutely a rich and decadent dessert from a five star restaurant in a can for you to sip and enjoy. It's a chocolate praline macaroon with cocoa nibs and Pecan Imperial Stout 14. So drink this one at home in your garage. Garage grade four and a half bottle caps out of five. And let's give some thanks and praise to our friends for helping us out. First up, a big cheers to longtime friends of the show Janelle and West from Round Lake, Illinois.

[Host Sam]

And big we like your jib goes out to Sonia from Fort Worth, Texas.

[Host Nick]

Next up, here's a cheers to John from Guilford, Connecticut. And last but certainly not least we have a double fisted cheers to Alexa and Cade from right here in Columb, Ohio. Everyone we just mentioned contributed to the True Crime Garage beer fund and for that we thank you.

[Host Sam]

Yeah bww n beer run for everything true crime. Check out truecrimegarage.com and while you're there. Sign up on the mailing list and if you haven't subscribed to us yet on YouTube, do so now. Tons of free and bonus content there, colonel. That's enough of the business.

[Host Nick]

All right everybody gather round. Grab a chair, grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime. Retired Columbus Police Sergeant John Hurst can't understand how Brian Schaefer, a 27 year old man at the time, just simply disappeared. But he can understand why it has captivated Central Ohio. Her said quote, he's got everything going for him. Why would this individual just disappear like this? It's a question Columbus PD and thousands from Central Ohio have been asking for more than 18 years. Brian Schaefer was a medical student at the Ohio State University. As legend has it, he walked into a campus bar and was never seen walking out, nor has he been seen again. The Shaffer case gets revived from time to time with magazine articles, stories on the Internet and podcast shows like True Crime Garage. Hurst said the attention can always help investigators a little more detail. Brian Schaer grew up in Pickerington, Ohio and he went to the Ohio State University and graduated with a degree in microbiology. Then he began studies at OSU College of Medicine. During his time at medical school, he became romantically involved with Alexis Wagner, another medical student. This was a serious relationship and the two were going to go to Miami together for spring break in early April of 2006. But Brian disappeared just days prior when Brian vanished after going out with friends on the evening of March 31st. According to these friends, during the early morning hours of April 1, Brian was separated from them and they assumed he had gone home. The security camera outside the entrance to the second floor bar recorded him briefly talking to two women just before 2am and then walking off screen. Shaffer has not been seen or heard from since. Columbus police have several theories about what happened. Some suspicion has been directed at a friend, Clint Florence, who accompanied him that night but has refused to take a polygraph test. While foul play is suspected, it has also been speculated that Brian might be living somewhere under a new identity. Today we have for you a very special treat. This is an interview with Columbus Police sergeant John Hurst, who was the lead investigator in the Shaffer case. Conducting the interview is the captain and longtime friend of the show, Maggie Freeling. The two were conducting interviews for a project centered on the disappearance of Brian Schaer. This audio has not been heard elsewhere and has never been released to the public. This is True Crime Garage.

[Captain Maggie Freeling]

That's a great start. You just Telling me about who you are. So do you want to introduce yourself and what your relationship is to the Brian Shaffer case?

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

My name is John Hurst. I'm a retired detective sergeant with Columbus Police. I was the lead investigator on the Brian Shaffer case while I was there, worked with two other detectives closely with it. And at any given time, we probably in the beginning had 100 officers out searching and talking to people and canvassing the areas.

[Captain Maggie Freeling]

What was your experience with missing persons cases before this? Had you worked any?

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

That's kind of an odd way how I ended up with that. I was in charge of physical child abuse unit, and the missing sergeant was on vacation, and when he was off, I would cover the unit, and when I was off that he would cover my unit. So he happened to be on vacation that week, and that's how I ended up with the investigation. Came in while he was gone. Prior to that, you know, I'd worked with the missing unit on numerous cases over the years, and this just happened to be one of the big ones we ended up with.

[Captain Maggie Freeling]

I was gonna say, how many of them wound up being missing for over a decade?

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

Yeah, well, with me, this is the only one. I mean, they still have missing persons with the department that had been filed, and I don't know the exact count, but, you know, like 20 or so that have went missing over the years.

[Host Sam]

And when I talked to a Columbus detective, they said that the missing persons unit normally deals with over 6,000 missing person cases a year.

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

Yeah, yeah. The missing persons unit gets bombarded with a lot of missing person reports. The vast majority of those are going to be runaways, which still gets listed as a missing person.

[Host Sam]

Right.

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

And they have to go through those to actually, you know, get to one of the, you know, I don't want to say actual or good missing cases, but one where there's somebody really, and it's missing missing, if that makes sense.

[Captain Maggie Freeling]

So when you first took this case, you know, what were you thinking? We have this attractive young white medical student. What was your first thought?

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

Well, first thought is, like, any of the missing cases, you know, guy was out the bar, he's probably going to turn up. But we actually didn't get it until a couple days later. So when we got it, we started talking to the family and find out what was going on. But initially your thought is, this guy, he's gonna turn up, he was out drinking with his friends and he's just got laid up somewhere and he'll pop up here in a day or two? Well, that didn't happen.

[Captain Maggie Freeling]

The call either came in or everyone started freaking out. When he didn't make his flight on his vacation was when it was like the urgency of, we think Brian's missing. At that point when you guys first realized, okay, this person might be missing, what did you guys do? What were your first steps?

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

Well, we were contacted by the family, and I believe it was on Monday. We went out to Brian's apartment and made contact with his dad, his brother, and his girlfriend at the time. And, you know, they told us, hey, we're supposed to be going on this trip, possibly maybe getting engaged. That was kind of a red flag for us that somebody just take off and disappear when you're planning, you know, a nice trip down South Florida and possibly going to get engaged while you're there. And so that was. That was a big red flag for us when. When that occurred, we did check to see if maybe he changed the airline ticket, decided to go somewhere on his own. The ticket was never used. It was never changed. So we were like, this isn't looking good right now.

[Captain Maggie Freeling]

So there has always been question about, you know, was he getting engaged or not? But you heard directly from his girlfriend that that might be it. That was a potential thing that was happening.

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

Well, that was what they thought at the time. Again, whether that was the case or not, don't know, but that was the original thought from the information we were getting from the family.

[Host Sam]

Were you able to look at Brian Schaefer's financial records?

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

Randy was able. He was. Had access to Brian's accounts and stuff, so we were able to get that pretty quick. There wasn't any indication that he had used his debit card or credit card to purchase a ring. But, you know, I might have paid cash if that was the case.

[Host Sam]

But I think this is one of the big questions in the Brian Shafer case. Was he planning to get engaged? And he was leaving on a Monday, so he still had Saturday and Sunday to make a purchase of engagement ring if he was going to get engaged on the trip.

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

Yeah, that's definitely a possibility.

[Captain Maggie Freeling]

How helpful was his family, his girlfriend, his friends? Was everybody cooperative with you?

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

Yeah, everybody that we contacted cooperated, answered our questions. Again, we had his friend Clint Florence. He declined to take a polygraph where we had Meredith, the girl that was with him that night, And Randy came in, they took a polygraph. Both of them passed it. We also had Clint subpoenaed down to the grand jury. We had a list of questions that we wanted to ask. We gave it to his Attorney. His attorney came back and says he doesn't want to talk. We're going to take the Fifth.

[Captain Maggie Freeling]

So we heard from his attorney that he was always cooperative and always spoke to you guys.

[Host Nick]

Well, he.

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

In the beginning, he was cooperative, and he did come in and talk to us and give us an interview and, you know, gave us some information. Then when it got down to the nitty gritty, when it comes to polygraphs, if you have an attorney, most attorneys are going to tell you not to.

[Captain Maggie Freeling]

I would not take a polygraph.

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

You know, I mean, so a lot of people were like, oh, my God, he didn't take a polygraph. You know, in this day and age, if you hire an attorney and there may be even some police officers out there tell you, probably, even if you're innocent, don't take the polygraphy.

[Host Sam]

Well, you have nothing to win, because if you take the polygraph and you fail, well, then you look guilty. And if you don't want to take one, then you look guilty. And if you pass the test. Well, nobody believes in the lie detector test anyways.

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

Right. And, you know, as law enforcement, what we use polygraph for, it's just kind of a tool to see, you know, do we need to continue looking in this area. Even if they pass, it doesn't mean we're not going to, you know, take them completely off the list. But, you know, we'll. We'll start looking a little harder, maybe somewhere else in a different direction.

[Host Sam]

Were you suspicious of Clint in any way?

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

Well, I guess you could say we became suspicious when we were trying to get him to polygraph, you know, because it would have cleared up a lot of questions, in my opinion, if he would have come in and answered the questions like Randy and Meredith did.

[Captain Maggie Freeling]

So there's still outstanding questions Clint has not answered, to your knowledge?

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

Yeah.

[Host Sam]

Yeah.

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

I mean, there's some questions that we. We wanted to ask and weren't able to do it, you know, and again, you know, I always throw out there, people lawyer up, innocent people lawyer up, guilty people lawyer up. And, you know, you're paying an attorney to give you advice. I don't like it. But that's the nature of the business. It's what the attorneys do, is what they get paid for.

[Captain Maggie Freeling]

So can you share some of the outstanding questions you have?

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

Probably not. It may sound accusatory. And without having him come in and at least give us the opportunity to ask him, I would probably err on the side of caution and not do that.

[Captain Maggie Freeling]

Can you share some things that he cleared up? That we might not know.

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

I think most of it's out there, what we've put out. I mean, I've. I've done a ton of interviews over the years, and we've released a lot of different information. Clint was just able to give us some support information on, you know, the questions that we were asking that he did answer. You know, it's. I don't have anything new that I could share with you.

[Host Sam]

Well, obviously, Clint was an eyewitness that night to what was going on with Brian and going on with his life. It seems that when Brian's father confronted Clint a few times about his involvement and claiming that Clint knows what happened and Clint has the answers, that that's kind of when Clint backed away and lawyered up.

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

That may have had something to do with it. I don't know exactly when Rand. I know Randy approached him a couple different times over the years, and I don't know if that was before or after we had asked him to take the polygraph. I don't remember now, but that could have played into it.

[Captain Maggie Freeling]

So we went yesterday to where the bar used to be, and we were looking around and trying to figure out, you know, obviously, the two biggest questions are, was he still in the bar and something happened to him, or did he actually leave the bar? So can you help clear up for us, you know, what kind of video footage there are actually was that was looked at. Is it possible he did leave the bar?

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

Oh, it's absolutely possible that he left the bar. I mean, they had video cameras all over that place. My speculation, and my theory is that he went out one of the construction entrances because they were plywood, and then they had a chain going through them with a padlock. And when we went down there, you could push on them, and somebody would be able to get in or out, you know, without a lot of difficulty.

[Captain Maggie Freeling]

And there was no cameras looking at that area?

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

Well, there was, but those cameras actually were the panning, and it's a possibility that they had panned away from where he had exited. The other cameras. I mean, one of my detectives, Andre Edwards, he took all the discs. We duplicated them. He took some home. He had a projector. He put his computer on it, made it lifelike on the wall. And he sat there and went through every frame, tracked everybody coming in, tracked every. I mean, this was a daunting task for him. You know, it took a lot of time, but we were able to track everybody in and out except for Brian.

[Host Sam]

Could you tell us about the orange shirt guy?

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

Now, what happened with him is during the review of the videos, we seen this guy. He was up and down the escalator, and it's kind of suspicious, you know. So we. We tracked him down and he was actually. Drove a taxi and he was just hanging out, waiting for the bar to close, pick up a fare. But, you know, it. It was one of the things that we looked into. I mean, we. We tried to uncover every rock that we could. Yeah, that made for an interesting story. I think a lot of people picked up on that. Yeah, we were able to track the guy down.

[Captain Maggie Freeling]

Well, it also shows the diligence that was done, too, in terms of looking at the cameras. I was gonna ask. So I've never been to Ugly Tuna. I'm from New York. This is my first time in Columbus. So hearing today from the band about this bar and, you know, we told them about the theory that the band did it, and they were laughing hysterically because. Because they said there would have been no way to even do that in this particular bar. So I guess that's my question, you know, is it possible something happened to him in the bar?

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

Well, I mean, anything's possible. Through our investigation, nothing came to light that anything occurred in there, and it would be difficult. I mean, it's basically. It was a big open room, had a bar in the middle and a kitchen off to the side. We had dogs come in and cadaver dogs, and they would have picked up on blood if there had been any blood in there. We had him go through the entire building. We actually went up on the roof, make sure he wasn't up there. Searched all the, you know, corners in that area and removed plates, cover plates, you know, just to see if maybe somebody might have stuffed him in there. But, you know, when we were done, the building was clean. There wasn't anybody in there.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Right.

[Captain Maggie Freeling]

And we were talking about how, you know, it's renovated today. So there was theories that maybe he's in a wall or something. Probably wouldn't be possible to be in a wall at this point.

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

No, no. And I never thought that was really a feasible possibility to begin with.

[Host Sam]

Was the entrance and exit to the bar the only entrance and exit, or was there an exit way through the kitchen?

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

You couldn't get out through the kitchen. They did have a fire escape, set of stairs that went down. There was a camera that if somebody opened that door, the camera would cycle to that door. Unfortunately, when it did something like that, it started to pan. And the security guard that was working that night overrode it and took it away. But we were able to look at other cameras in the courtyard and didn't see anybody come out of that area. The only other way would be, like I said, you know, go down the stairs. You can't really see the elevator now, but at the time, you could see the elevator, and then there was a set of stairs to the left of the elevator. So he could have went down one of those, and that led right into the construction site. Then there was a hallway behind the other businesses down there that had a camera in it. So he didn't go down that hallway.

[Host Sam]

Well, it's hard to explain to people that haven't been there that you see the video footage of the escalators, but the blank spot that you're seeing in the footage is actually two doors that are fire escapes, essentially two exit doors. So when me and Maggie were there today, we went through the exit doors. I don't know if we're supposed to be there, but we. We went down there, and we went through the hallways, and nobody stopped us. So we just kept on exploring, if you will.

[Captain Maggie Freeling]

Well, we were.

[OnDeck Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Captain Maggie Freeling]

I mean, again, that was my first time. So I was like, wait a minute. Were these exits always here? He could have gotten in one of these. And we were wondering about the cameras in those exits.

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

Like I said, the building at the time is nowhere near what it was right now. The elevator, there's actually a door you got to go through now to get to the elevator, where at the time, you could just walk up to the elevator, push the button, and hop on. And then that took you to the back hallway and down to where the construction's going on. And we did check to see if maybe he might have went down and wandered through a business before he was picked up on camera. And again, that was found not to be the situation.

[Captain Maggie Freeling]

I forgot to ask you. What year did you retire?

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

Three years ago on January 18 of 19.

[Captain Maggie Freeling]

Was this a case you were working on until your retirement? Did it go cold? I mean, are you still. Were you still getting leads?

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

Well, we still would get something from time to time. A lot of it would be psychics, alleged psychics. And again, we didn't discard it just because somebody said, hey, I'm clairvoyant, and I have this feeling or I'm having this. Whatever we could check out. We would. The unfortunate situation is 99.99% of the stuff that came in through that avenue were very vague. We had one. He's in a bunch of weeds under some trees in a Field. How are we going to go find something like that? He's laying in the basement of a brick house in a prone position. Again, how. How many brick houses do we have in the area? Not just in Columbus, but in that area. So a lot of the stuff that came in, you know, we look at it and we're like, yeah, there's nothing we can do with this. But we did get tips, come in where somebody would say they had seen him. Somebody seen him allegedly working in a restaurant in Detroit. So we contacted the Detroit Missing Persons Unit up there and had them, you know, sent him the flyer and had him go out and talk to the management, and they're like, no, he's never worked here. We had sightings in Texas and Colorado, California. We had one in Sweden. Supposedly, somebody seen him over there. We had one in the Virgin Islands. And, you know, again, we did what we could to do, you know, follow through on those. You know, we had the FBI check the Virgin island situation, and again, that didn't produce anything.

[Captain Maggie Freeling]

How extensively was the FBI involved?

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

Their VICAP unit was in contact with me quite often. Anytime I needed something, all I had to do is pick up the phone call and say, hey, you know, can you go check this out for us? We had the Texas Rangers a couple times check some stuff out for us down in Texas. So it was pretty extensive investigation.

[Host Sam]

So you said during the investigation, you were able to give some people polygraph tests. One of those people was Brian's father. Were you able to give a polygraph test to Brian's brother Derek?

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

Now, Derek that night was out with some friends, and typically Derek and Brian would meet their dad at the same time. And Derek wasn't able to go because he'd already made plans with some friends and they were out for the evening.

[Host Sam]

So Brian and his father had dinner the night that Brian went missing, but his brother wasn't able to join him that night.

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

Yeah, typically when Randy would meet with Brian, Derek and Brian would go together. And that night, Derek had already made plans by the time, you know, Randy had asked, hey, can you guys meet me for dinner? You know, Derek was like, I can't do it, man. You know, we already have plans.

[Captain Maggie Freeling]

Is it true that Brian and his dad got in an argument that night?

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

Well, that's speculation. What we did find out, and we knew was Brian's mother had split the her life insurance policy up, Randy got half, and the two boys got 25%. There's a story that's been floating around out there on the Internet that they Got into an argument over the life insurance policy and that the boys weren't supposed to get it and they should get the money back. We never were able to really sustain that information.

[Host Sam]

Well, that's what's tough about looking into a case like this that's so widely talked about on the Internet. Is all the speculation. And is what you're hearing true, or is what you're hearing does a fictitious story, some rumors that got some legs,

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

just like what we have to do, we get all this information, you got to sift through it and find out, okay, what's the real deal here?

[Host Sam]

Because one of the rumors was that Randy was cut out of the will, and so that might be a motive for why Randy would want his son to go missing. And also the fact that Randy didn't have an alibi for the night that his son went missing.

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

Right. Well, and, you know, like, that's why we had him come in, take a polygraph, and, you know, he passed it with no issues at all. You know, when we were blaming him, it was just something we needed to get done to answer, you know, those types of questions. And then you're gonna have people argue, well, maybe he lied and got away with it on the polygraph. I'm no expert on polygraphs, but, you know, for the most part, I think as long as the operator is properly trained and has experience behind them, it's not going to be a bad read

[Captain Maggie Freeling]

on it, is there? I know you mentioned Clint, but anyone that you wish you could have talked to or anything you wish you could have had during this investigation.

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

Oh, I wish I could have flown all these locations and did interviews myself, but that wouldn't be feasible, you know, for the department to do that. I mean, we. We were having sightings all over the place. But yeah, I mean, there's. I think her name was Shelly Wineland, his ex. Girlfriend, previous girlfriend. I would have liked to talk to her in person. I did speak to her on the phone and ended up, I had to send the Rangers, that one of the Texas Ranger went out and interviewed her for me.

[Host Sam]

So I believe she was a high school girlfriend of Brian's. And when she'd come back into town, or Brian would come back into town, they would end up hanging out together.

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

Yeah, they were still friends, but that's all it was after they had split. So.

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[Host Sam]

So Brian went missing April 1, 2006. His father would end up passing away during a heavy windstorm in September of 2008. After his death, his obituary was placed online. One of the signatures said to dad, Love Brian from the US Virgin Islands.

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

Yeah, we were actually we were able to trace that back to one of the public libraries on the north side of Columbus and we went out to see if we could get any camera video on it and unfortunately their camera at the time wasn't working. You know when people come through the door and they didn't have a camera on the computer?

[Captain Maggie Freeling]

So were there cameras that should have

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

been working that weren't oh, well, when we went and did a canvas of the area looking for cameras, the Wendy's that was across the street at the time, we checked to see if they had a camera on their drive through, and it wasn't working. So. And even if it had been, it may not have picked him up. But then when Detective Edwards went around looking for. He was the one that went around looking for him. There was a lot of fake cameras up that looked like real cameras, but they were just fake cameras. It seemed like every turn we made, there was something that would pop up that is like, are you kidding me? You know, like the cameras. I, I don't know. I just don't. I don't know how to explain it. It was just. It was a horrible situation for us because we're thinking, well, maybe this can get us somewhere. And we go out, well, our camera's not working, or that's not a real camera. And you know, that was down in the area the way Brian would walk home. And unfortunately, unfortunately back then we didn't have all the ring doorbell cameras on that maybe we could have pulled. But yeah, it was just, it was frustrating.

[Host Sam]

The Ugly Tuna Saluna bar was in a new complex. But can you explain maybe how difficult or tough that area was back when Brian went missing?

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

Well, I think if you stayed on High street and maybe one block in either direction at that time, it wasn't too bad. But the further you drifted away from High street, especially going to the east,

[Captain Maggie Freeling]

he went out of back exit, he wouldn't have been on High Street. He would have kind of been in that.

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

Well, he would have came out. If he'd went out the back entrance, he would have been facing that way and he could have stumbled, you know, went that way, thinking he was heading home. But if he'd went out the side or the front, they had three entrances at the construction site, so depending on which one he'd went out. But again, you know, unfortunately we weren't able to pick anything up on camera.

[Host Sam]

So you're saying at the Ugly Tuna Saluna, there's parts of that building that were under construction. There was three exits through the construction site.

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

Yeah.

[Captain Maggie Freeling]

And what about the, the idea that he could have fallen in a construction pit and been covered with concrete at

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

the, at that location or a different

[Host Sam]

location at the Ugly Tuna location?

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

No, when we went in there, everything was dug up. They were actually putting in the elevator shaft, which most time they'll do that before they do a lot of the other things. Yeah, there was no fresh cement poured Anywhere that would indicate that that would have been the case.

[Captain Maggie Freeling]

So I guess where Captain was going is like, how likely do you think it was that he left and something happened to him on the street?

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

Well, I would say that's pretty likely that he got out of there. Depending on how much he had to drink. He may have passed out somewhere. You know, he could have passed out, fell in a dumpster. You know, it's hard to tell. A lot of people think he might have fell into the Olentangy river at the time, but at that time it wasn't. But, you know, a couple feet deep, which you could drown in that, but it's not going to carry you away. So, yeah, there's a lot of theories out there on the Internet. I quit reading them because I just shake my head. I'm like, man, you know, this. This is crazy.

[Host Sam]

Well, this case has really blown up on the Internet. And there's a lot of rumors and speculations. And one that gets brought up many times when I'm talking to individuals that are fascinated with the case is Brian's sexuality. Was he straight? Was he bi? Did he have any homosexual relationships with anybody?

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

That did come up during the investigation. We actually got that information from Shelly that he had had experienced. Experimented with it. I mean, that was brought up, and there was somebody who stated that, yeah, that happened.

[Host Sam]

The story that we have been told is that Brian was going to propose to his girlfriend on this trip that he didn't make. They're leaving that Monday. When people start speculating that he might be gay, then the question becomes, would that be enough of a reason to run away and start a new life?

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

Yeah. Yeah. And that was discussed with in the unit and couple of our superiors that were over the. The bureau at the time that was discussed. And maybe he had just taken off and started a new life. And, you know, I mean, if. If you don't use your name, Social Security number, date of birth, you could do that. It's not impossible, but it's not the easiest thing to do either. We did check his computers to see if maybe he had done some online searching to get information on how to do that. We also did for suicide. That was another thing out there. He killed himself somewhere. But on the computer, we weren't able to find anything. And even though when you go on and even if you delete it, you're still gonna have it. If you have the right equipment, you can go in and pull this stuff off.

[Host Sam]

So was he looking up weird stuff or was he just looking up Normal stuff.

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

Just. Just normal stuff. I mean, there was nothing out of the ordinary. You know, he had a computer he did for school, and he had his other computer.

[Host Sam]

With the speculation that Brian was going to drop out of school and quit everything to start a new life, to have a romantic relationship, it just. It just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Did you ever discuss his. His sexuality or the possible experimentation with his sexuality with his father?

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

We didn't bring it up with Randy. We didn't see any need to do that at the time. The information we got was later, and we don't, you know, a lot of stuff we didn't put out there because there just wasn't any need to try to, you know, make somebody look one way or the other when, you know, there's no real substance that's going to benefit the investigation.

[Captain Maggie Freeling]

Was there anything that you found that would indicate he wanted to or tried to start a new life?

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

No, there was nothing to indicate that. There was nothing in his apartment. I mean, when his apartment was immaculate, it was clean, bed was made, everything was put in order.

[Captain Maggie Freeling]

Did he have anything packed for his vacation at all?

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

No, I didn't. But, you know, he could have been. This was Friday night when he went out.

[Captain Maggie Freeling]

So, yeah, it's the morning of 7am flight.

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

I've done that. I've done that.

[Host Sam]

But he had guitars as well.

[Host Nick]

Yeah.

[Host Sam]

And he left that mic. Because I'm a guitar player and I'm like, I'm going to start a new life. I'm taking the guitars with me.

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

At least one of them. Right. And we did. They did have tickets to go see Pearl Jam. And we had reached out to the manager and told him, hey, you know, he's supposed to be there at this concert. Probably not going to show up, but can you, you know, put the word out for us? And. And they did. And Randy and Derek and I think Alexis and a couple other people went down and handed out flyers to people coming in attendance. You know, it's. This was a pretty extensive investigation.

[Host Sam]

Well, in a lot of missing person cases, we have eyewitness accounts. But there was an eyewitness account from a detective. Were you the detective that thought they saw Brian?

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

No, no. Detective Edwards thought he seen Brian and he stopped him. And it was actually Derek, which would

[Host Sam]

make a lot of sense because Brian and Derek look similar. Obviously, they're brothers.

[Captain Maggie Freeling]

Do you think the case will be solved?

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

I would like to say yes, but I think this is going to be one of them cases that we probably will Never know. Like I said, I. I have my theories, you know, what might have happened.

[Captain Maggie Freeling]

Can you share that?

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

Yeah. I don't think he committed suicide. A lot of people think, you know, you know, he went out and killed himself somewhere. Most people, if you're going to commit suicide, you want to be found. You're not going to go do it somewhere where you're not going to be found. And then it's a possibility that with what he was drinking that night, he may have stumbled into a dumpster. And you got picked up the next day and emptied. And what we did check was to see where the dumpsters were all taken. At that time, the city of Columbus dumpsters were going down to the landfill here in Franklin County. The commercial dumpsters were being shipped to a site down in Tennessee. So, you know, once they get into a landfill, you know, they work an area and they bring the trash in and it's covered with dirt. We did take cadaver dogs down the landfill here. The only problem was, and we, you know, we talked to the dog owners that they're going to hit on anything that. That has blood on it. You know, it could be something as small as a band aid and there's, you know, feminine products, those type of things. So we did go down and try to use the dogs to do that. Wasn't very successful with it. You know, obviously we didn't find him. But the stuff that they did alert on was typical stuff you find in a landfill.

[Host Sam]

Well, I think one of the other reasons why this case has fascinated the Internet so much is that you got a guy that goes into a bar, he's seen going in, but he's not seen coming out. But the more I've looked into the case, the more it seems like this investigation was very, very thorough, more so than a lot of missing person cases. So a theory that makes sense to you is that he was intoxicated and found his way into a dumpster.

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

I think that's a possibility.

[Captain Maggie Freeling]

But when you have to climb in the dumpster, like, climb into it?

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

No, the dumpsters down there have them side doors. And, you know, if you walk up to it, it's. They're usually like right about here. Who knows? He may have been throwing up. And again, this is just a theory I have. Went over and started throwing up in the dumpster and passed out and fell in. That's. That's a possibility.

[Captain Maggie Freeling]

So it seems like you, from what you understand of that night, he was pretty drunk. Because we heard that Randy was trying to say he wasn't like a drinker and wouldn't have been drinking.

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

Well, he, he, he, Brian, from what we found out, liked his alcohol and he didn't do it all the time, but, you know, on occasion he would go out and, you know, this wouldn't have been the first time that he left on his own. We, you know, that was something that the people, when we interviewed his friends and stuff were like, yeah, he, that's not unusual. Him just take off, you know, he just goes and does his own thing, you know, and then he's, you know, might find him passed out in a lawn or something, you know, so, yeah, I mean, it's possibility that that would be the case that he, you know, he just had too much drink, passed out. You know, we went down and checked the bridge and when we had dive teams out doing, you know, different places and we had horses out going up the trails, we had the bike guys going up the trail.

[Host Sam]

Well, and Randy and his family and friends, they checked all over the city as well.

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

Yeah, yeah. Randy did a lot on his own as well.

[Captain Maggie Freeling]

We're going to do our best to talk to Clint.

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

Well, good luck with it. Because he won't talk to. He hasn't talked to anybody.

[Host Sam]

And because Clint won't talk to anybody, didn't want to take the polygraph test. It's like, what is he hiding? And I've heard rumors that it's possible that him and Brian had more than friendship relationship, that maybe at some point it became romantic.

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

They could have been. We interviewed some roommates of Clint's, and Clint and Brian had roommated for a little while, and then Brian moved out. And we interviewed the two roommates that Clint had after that. In their opinion, they made statements to us that they felt they were a little too touchy feely more than what guys normally would do.

[Captain Maggie Freeling]

Do you think that could be why Clint doesn't want to talk? He doesn't want that out?

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

It could be, you know, he doesn't want that to get out. You know, that was one of the things we did discuss in the unit, you know, that, you know, what are the possibilities here? So, yeah, I mean, it's, that's one of the questions that we would like to find out.

[Captain Maggie Freeling]

But, but so Clint and Meredith, there is footage of them leaving that night from the garage.

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

Mm.

[Captain Maggie Freeling]

I mean, to me, I would think Clint. What could Clint possibly know about anything? So what could Clint help us with? I mean, people think he's like, the key to this.

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

Well, they were close. So if, say, Brian decided Hey, I've had enough. You know, I lost my mother. I don't want to get engaged. You know, I just want to get out of here. Clint would probably have known that if there was a plan for Brian to leave that night. But again, we never had the opportunity to ask him those things.

[Host Sam]

Well, and back to Clint real quick. You know, like you said, he wasn't being super cooperative. He lawyers up and the lawyer has made the statement that Brian should come forward and tell everybody what happened. And it's not up to Clint to tell everybody what happened.

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

Well, his attorney, and I don't know where he got it, made a statement about one of the detectives had told him that Brian was alive. And, you know, if that was the case, I think that's why he made that statement.

[Captain Maggie Freeling]

Is that true that a detective told him that?

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

None of the detectives I was working with at the time made that comment.

[Captain Maggie Freeling]

Do you think there is anybody out there that knows something if he.

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

If other than falling in a dumpster and disappearing that way? Yeah, somebody's had to seen something or knows. The only problem with that is at one time they were offering a hundred thousand dollar reward for any information, and nobody came forward. Nobody. I mean, we had psychics coming in with their, you know, I get, you know, he's in a. The basement of a brick building. I guess that, you know, if we find him in a basement, a brick building, and they can make a claim to Crime Stoppers, maybe. I don't know.

[Captain Maggie Freeling]

So after talking with the band today and talking with you and never having been here until today, I feel very comfortable personally saying I don't think that he stayed in the bar, and I think he left the bar.

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

There's no doubt in my mind he left the bar. You know, it's just what baffles everybody is how to get out of there without being seen. And, you know, there is an explanation for that, whether people want to accept it or not. You know, I mean, if I had a camera on the front door here and it's panned to the left and it's looking over here and you go out the door and go that way, it's not going to pick you up.

[Captain Maggie Freeling]

An amazing coincidence.

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

Yeah. Yeah. And then we did, you know, go through the neighborhood trying to find other cameras. There was a 711 across the street, and the only camera they had was inside. Didn't have anything outside, you know, on the cashier in case somebody come in and rob them or so that's what

[Captain Maggie Freeling]

we were wondering, too. Did the bar have cameras Inside their own. They didn't.

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

No, there was no cameras inside the bar.

[Captain Maggie Freeling]

So. So, so we don't actually know for sure. I mean, we feel confident he left the bar, but we don't know for sure he left the bar.

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

Well, I feel confident he left the bar alive.

[Captain Maggie Freeling]

You think he left the bar alive, not dismembered in something.

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

I mean, it's somebody even. I think there was a speculation out there that they took him back in the kitchen and cut him out and took him. Took him out the kitchen door. Well, the only door going into the kitchen is leading out to the bar.

[Captain Maggie Freeling]

So my last question for you, and you might have other follow ups, but my last question is, what is it like to work one of the most infamous missing person cases? I mean, you were the first detective. You are the guy with all the information. I mean, what is this like to work this case and have it. Have retired without it being solved?

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

Very frustrating. I mean, I think a police officer, you know, depending on if you're in a metropolitan area where you have a lot of high crime and this kind of thing goes on, you're going to have a case that pops up that ends up being a thorn in your side. And I say that not in a bad way, but it's just no matter what you've tried, no matter what you did, you still didn't get any answers. And then to leave and still not have any answers, it was very frustrating. And still frustrating.

[Host Sam]

Well, there's still a possibility that somebody comes forward with information.

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

Oh, I would love somebody, even if they did it anonymously, you know, to come forward. And, you know, getting back to, maybe he did go start another life, you know, and I've said this before and I've told the news media, hey, all he's got to do is contact us. We'll verify it's him, and if he doesn't want anybody to know where he's at, it'll never get told.

[Captain Maggie Freeling]

But wouldn't you have to close the case then? Yeah, you would. So if the case was just mysteriously closed, I mean, wouldn't at least us knowing the way that works, we would be like, oh, shh, maybe they found him.

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

Well, if we find him, that would. Yeah, I mean, it would if he was alive. Like I said, we're going to respect a person's privacy. You know, we would contact, you know, the family, which is pretty much Derek right now, and say, hey, brother's alive. He doesn't want anybody to know where he's at. But just to give you some peace of mind. He's okay.

[Host Nick]

If you are a member of law enforcement or a first responder and you have a case that you would like True Crime Garage to feature from your jurisdiction, please email the show. Our contact information is available on our website for this case and any missing persons case from the great city of Columbus, Ohio. Any tips regarding the Brian Schaefer case should be directed to the Columbus Division of Police Investigative Desk at 614-645-4624.

[Host Sam]

Want to thank everybody for joining us here in the Garage each and every week. Have a very happy holiday. Colonel do we have any recommended reading for the beautiful listeners?

[Host Nick]

A little recommended listening for you? Check out Wrongful Conviction, a true crime podcast hosted by founding board member of the Innocence Project, Jason Flom, as well as Pulitzer Prize winning Maggie Freeling, an Emmy Award winning Lauren Bright Pacheco. Wrongful Conviction features intimate conversations with men and women who have spent years in prison for crimes they maintain they did not commit. Some have been fully exonerated and reunited with family and friends, while others continue to languish with some facing execution on death row. This gripping series reveals the tragedy of injustice as well as the triumph that is possible when people demand change. Check out Wrongful Conviction, a true crime podcast. You can find that recommendation and many more on our recommended page on our website true crime garage.com and until next

[Host Sam]

week, be good, be kind and don't litter. Sam.

[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

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[John Hurst (Retired Detective Sergeant)]

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[Host Nick]

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