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Cold Case: Who Killed JonBenet Ramsey /// Part 1 of 3
01:18:23
Cold Case: Who Killed JonBenet Ramsey /// Part 1 of 3 www.TrueCrimeGarage.com Netflix recently released a new docu-series titled “Cold Case: Who Killed JonBenet Ramsey.” The series is already a hit, reaching Netflix #1 worldwide. This week in the Garage, Nic & the Captain revisit the JonBenet Ramsey murder investigation and talk about the docu-series for the first time. Beer of the Week - Holiday Cheer by Shiner Garage Grade - 4 and a quarter bottle caps out of 5
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- [00:01]
Nick
Building a business may feel like a.
- [00:02]
The Captain
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The Captain
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The Captain
Next business day or sooner.
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- [00:57]
The Captain
To the people.
- [01:01]
Nick
Time welcome to True Crime Garage Wherever you are, whatever you are doing, thanks for listening. I'm your host Nick and with me, as always, is a man who will be gifting at least one lucky individual an urban sombrero for Christmas this year. Here is the Captain.
- [01:58]
The Captain
Some say I have a plethora of sombreros. It's good to be seen and good to see you. Thanks for listening. Thanks for telling a friend.
- [02:10]
Nick
Today we are very cheerful to be featuring Holiday Cheer by the fine folks at Shiner Shiner. Holiday Cheer is one of my favorite holiday beers. Cheer is an amber colored old World Dunkle Weissen brewed with Texas peaches and roasted pecans. Serve it cold and not only will you be full of holiday cheer, but you will be be craving another ABV 5.4% garage grade four and a quarter bottle caps out of five. And here's a toast to some of our garage friends that shine bright. First up, a cheers to Leah from Owen Sound, Ontario, Canada.
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The Captain
The big we like to jib goes out to Maddie Bigelman from Hiram, Utah.
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Nick
Next up we have a cheers to Tammy Jacobsome from Duvall, Washington. And last but certainly not least we have Megan in Ludington, Michigan. Everyone we just mentioned went to truecrimegarage.com and helped us out with this week's beer fund which filled up the old garage fridge and for that we thank you.
- [03:14]
The Captain
Yeah, BWR you in beer run for everything True crime. Check out truecrimegarage.com while you're there. Sign up on the mailing list so you can get some free promo codes. That's enough of the business.
- [03:27]
Nick
All right everybody gather round. Grab a chair, grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime. Someone killed his six year old child. Some people don't think it's ever going to be solved. People hated the Ramses.
- [03:49]
The Captain
We have a kid.
- [03:49]
Nick
Not there. We were just a regular family. We have a kid out there. Jean Benet.
- [03:58]
The Captain
Jean Ramsey was in child duty pageants. Was there an intruder or what was.
- [04:03]
Nick
The family and f someone killed his six year old child.
- [04:09]
The Captain
People hated the Ramses.
- [04:10]
Nick
We have a kidnapping. I did not kill my daughter. JonBenet. We have a kidnapping. There is evidence of an intruder. I say this over and over and over again. We have a kidnapping. Someone killed his six year old child.
- [04:32]
The Captain
People hated the Realtors.
- [04:39]
Nick
About a week ago a documentary docu series came out that a lot of people were talking about. It's got the people in a whirl trying to figure out what happened to poor JonBenet Ramsey many, many years ago. I believe we're at 27, 28 years now almost for this unsolved cold case. And I'm calling it a cold case because I don't know how much activity is actually happening outside of the media on this case. And I think that's fair to speculate because in this docu series it didn't seem like Boulder police wanted to be a part of the series or at least add a comment or get involved. So the docu series was called Cold case who killed JonBenet Ramsey? It's on Netflix. It's a three part series. It was a quick watch for me just because I'm fascinated by the case. It's got a lot of people talking on social media again and a lot of people asking questions. A lot of new observations, let's say from certain people that have called some things into question. So we wanted to circle back. As our long time listeners know, we have discussed this case at length on several opportunities over the years and in fact last year we released many episodes about this case. Started off with a six part series several years ago. So this is a case that we will likely continue to revisit periodically and explore it when there is new information or old information that maybe needs to be rehashed. And that's what I think we got here from this docu series that came out just a little over a week ago.
- [06:24]
The Captain
Yeah, and mixed reviews on this. It's been number one on iTunes pretty much all over the world. So a lot of people watching it, but mixed reviews. Some people think it's just rehashed old information, nothing new. It's a steamy pile of dog. And other people thought it was very fascinating. And what the media is telling us is there's a whole new generation. Our generation looks at cases like the O.J. simpson case or the Menendez brothers or JonBenet Ramsey as like, these are cases you should know. Or West Memphis 3. Everybody should know about these cases. But that's our generation. The new generation is discovering this JonBenet Ramsey case pretty much for the first time.
- [07:09]
Nick
That's fascinating to me, Captain, because when we were at Crime Con earlier this year, late May, early June, John Ramsey was present, there were people there talking openly about the JonBenet Ramsey case. And the thing that I thought was really interesting, I met some folks that were pretty hardcore into true crime, listening to podcasts, watching everything they can on tv. They had tagalongs. Right. We know that a lot of times a husband or boyfriend will tag along. That's typically the setup.
- [07:43]
The Captain
Those are my favorite people.
- [07:45]
Nick
Yes.
- [07:46]
The Captain
It's the ones that come up and go, my, my wife loves you. I, I don't know who you are. And I'm like, hey, let's have a, let's have a beer later.
- [07:54]
Nick
The guys that go, I was just in charge of the driving portion of this trip, but they have a great time. And so I met several people that are somewhat new to true crime and let's say about 10 years younger than us, roughly. I was really shocked and surprised at how little they Knew about the JonBenet Ramsey case. And it was interesting to me to have these conversations with those individuals, to see how they're kind of working through it in their mind and the toil that they have to do. Because this is a case with so many obstacles, so many hurdles to clear, it's almost mind boggling. And to see them trying to work through it in their mind during conversation we're having. And I'm not trying to enlighten them as to my opinions or things that I've researched over the years on this case or trying to educate them on some of the details. No, I'm simply trying to take in from them what their observations were on items in particulars that they learned throughout the course of their visit at Crime Congress and to see that they, they're, they're for the first time forming an opinion on what they think happened.
- [09:12]
The Captain
Yeah.
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Nick
Why they think it happened. So very intriguing to meet people that are somewhat new to this case. It's, it's kind of like we covered Robert Juan last week and the week before. If you are outside we said this, then if you are outside of that Washington, D.C. maryland area, some people, if you go further west, are not so aware of that case. And it's one of those cases that immediately you start to hear the details of that case and you go, my God, why have I not heard about this before? And if you have heard of the case and know some of the details, you go, yeah, I'm ready to buckle up one more time and revisit this case because it's so intriguing and there's so many avenues that you could go down with that case. And in ways it's strange. We didn't plan this because we didn't know we knew this docu series was coming out. And I think some friends of mine let me know when they believe the release date was. But what we're seeing now, Captain, with some of the streaming services is they're not so amped up to, to really hype up and advertise and market a true crime story that they're about to release because it's almost like they're afraid somebody else is going to get the jump on them if somebody else is working on one. So we're seeing this shift where the streaming services aren't so openly advertising for these documentaries and docu series way down the line. It's only up until you get close here. So with this one coming out real quick, and we'll jump into this because we got a lot that I want to dig through and tear through here because there's so much meat on the bone. But just real quick, I want to get your opinion on the Give us your Cisco and Ebert as it would be on the docu series.
- [11:11]
The Captain
Well, the problem I have with this case is there's a meme. Everybody's seen it. It's a lady in her bed. Her face is glowing because of the screen on her cell phone. And it's and it says something like, this is me at 3am Googling who killed JonBenet Ramsey. This is one of those cases for me. So any documentary or book or if I'm on YouTube, YouTube loves to suggest random people's random thoughts about this case. And I will watch every single video. And that's one of the reasons that this case bothers me. And, and once it's solved, if it ever is solved, at least I can stop that part of my life. So it's definitely a case that I will dive into any new information. And I agree with a lot of people. A lot of this documentary is rehashed garbage or information you've heard before. A hot, steamy pile of, if you will. But you have to keep in mind some people are coming to this case for the first time. So you have to go over those details. We're not going to go over all those details in this episode. I would give it a two thumbs up. I've watched it twice now and then I've watched a ton of videos of people dissecting different scenes and different comments made by John Ramsey or other individuals in this documentary. But I thought it was an easy watch. I hate when true crime documentaries are six to eight parts and by the seventh part or eighth part you're like, why was this seven or eight parts? I think this one fits nicely with some of the old information and some of the new information into a three part series. And look, this was directed by one of true crime docs, OGs, right? This is half the team that did Paradise Lost.
- [13:15]
Nick
Yes. And so I'm not going to refer to it as a steamy pile of shit because I don't think anybody will care to listen to the remainder of our episode on it. I actually thought it was very good, considering I knew walking into it with a lot of these cases that are revisited time and time again and we talked about how old this case is. It's been, you know, all these years since the poor girl was killed inside of her home. I know with some of these cases, particularly because of what we do and our coverage on this exact case right here, that I've learned to not walk into these going well, I'm expecting to learn a whole lot of new information.
- [14:01]
The Captain
Right.
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Nick
And if I can, if I can clear that hurdle, then I can just sit back as a viewer and try to absorb it and take it all in. And taking it all in, I actually thought it was done very well. I thought the look of it, the flow of it, I thought was very good. And you talked about, we're going to do this exercise where we talk through some of the questions that we've seen online and on social and some of the observations and we've had people ask us, hey, you guys have done plenty of coverage on this case. Can you, can you talk about some of these things? So I'm excited to jump into this exercise. But you mentioned we may not be getting into all the details and that's for good reason. We could spend all of 20, 25 once a week talking about this case and probably leave a few things out. 52 weeks of coverage and probably leave a few things out. The I. Part of me thinks that the case has gotten too big, that a lot of the. A lot of the important stuff might be getting lost because it's become so expansive. But if you're new to our show or tuning in, maybe even for just the first time, if you want to know more about our coverage, if you want to learn the details and the particulars of this case or hear our side of it, we started covering this case in 2019. Leading up to Christmas, we did six episodes. Little Miss Christmas. We have a kidnapping. Hurry, please. We have your daughter, the autopsy, Santa Claus, the family. Those were the six episodes that we did in December of 2019. In 2023, just after Thanksgiving, we did additional coverage, looking at it from a different angle, where we brought in experts to talk to. We did two episodes called the Master Detective. They came out in November of 2023. And then in December, we did two episodes called I Killed her, one episode called Presumed Guilty, and then three episodes titled Poems and Pornography. So if you want more information from the garage, I direct you there. Now, one of the first things that was discussed in this case after the documentary came out was a lot of people were very surprised about the layout of the Ramses home. The complexity of the layout of that house. And not only was it a very large house, but the layout is very unique. It's quite chopped up. And one thing that police and the detectives will tell us here about this particular murder is that the complexity and the layout, the unique layout of the Ramsey home would make it very difficult for the intruder theory to work. It. It complicates the intruder theory.
- [17:08]
The Captain
Yeah. I think this is a point that doesn't go either way. This could point to somebody in the family being involved. This could also point to an intruder, because you could also make some argument if they were trying to get out of the house and then the intruder was confused, that maybe that's why the murder took place there. And. And they didn't follow through with the kidnapping. So I don't think this points either way. But I think when you see this footage and kind of like what you're saying, this case has got so big that when there are new documentaries or new books, what you're basically doing is getting extra details about the details we already know. So we know that the house is large. We know that it's complex. But when you see them going through the. There's this law Enforcement footage where they're going through the kitchen and they have to go down another level to like the pantry area, and then they go down another level and now they're in the basement. You start seeing pretty quickly how confusing this place would be to navigate. But you can also see the separation. And so if you're one to believe the intruder theory, you go, well, intruder wouldn't be that scared to enter a place like this because there's so many places to hide, there's so many places to go, there's so many places to take a victim.
- [18:35]
Nick
Yeah. So I worked building security as a security administrator for a high rise property, a large property in downtown Columbus for over three years. And one thing that you do is you try to reverse engineer your property, right? You, you try to look at it not from how do I protect the property? You start looking at it as, how can I, how would I, as a bad guy get into this property? What, how, what's the compromises in our security here? And from if I go that angle and look at this house, boy, I can't wait to get in there. That I'm telling you, man, this, this house is perfect for breaking into it. Now, breaking into it and committing a murder. Breaking into it and taking a child for ransom, That's a whole different can of worms. But let's consider this. Okay, what are the complexities? Because what we are told here is that the complexity of this house actually would point to that someone within the home killed the girl, that there was not an intruder. And that is, that is what has been outright said by police at times. And then also the paint the picture that they like to paint for us, the seed that is planted for us, they don't directly say it, but they, they hint at it. So the complexities is it's like a 6,500 square foot home that is gigantic. The thing here too is I, you know, homes that have been built onto. And that is the case here. This is a, what's referred to as a Tudor home, Tudor style home. It was eventually added on to. When I look at homes that have been added onto, if they added a wing here or a room there, or changed the garage into something and then added a garage over here. To me, I always, I always liken that to like a quilt rather than a blanket. Right? Like a blanket looks like one complete piece of work. Where with a quilt, you can kind of see how they added on. It's almost, it's even obvious how they added on as you go. But 6,500 square feet. That is complicated. And it's cut up. Right. This house is cut up on every floor. But one thing we need to keep in mind here is if you're telling me that the home is complicated and that points to the Ramseys as being guilty, who's to say that the intruder isn't somebody that had been in the home before? Who's to say that the intruder didn't have some prior knowledge of the house before going into the house? Whether the intruder had prior knowledge or not, What I can see from the street view is I can see that it's surrounded by a large fence. That's problematic for my operation. But what I can see immediately is I want to get to the backyard, and I know that I have an alleyway. I know that if I can get to that backyard, I have some things working on my side as the potential intruder or intruder. So if you go down to the one thing that's complicated for an intruder, that has no prior knowledge of the home, that hasn't been into the home before, or had discussions with people that have been in the home before, from the street view, Captain, I cannot tell that this home has a basement. I would assume that it did. I am looking at the home, and I believe there's a possible third floor, but I can't confirm that by the street view.
- [22:07]
The Captain
But I don't think it would be that hard for any individual to go inside a house, even if it's a large house. And within, you know, 10 minutes, 20 minutes of touring the house by yourself, you're going to kind of get a lay of the land. You're going to have an understanding of the house pretty quickly.
- [22:25]
Nick
I wouldn't say within minutes. I mean, maybe for a smarter person than I, but I. This is where I do agree with the Boulder police detectives. The every floor is cut up so much. There's a basement. There's a ground level, second floor, third, third level. The parents are sleeping on the third floor, or at least we are told that's where. What is going on that night. The problem becomes here. If you go to the basement, it's cut up into 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Five rooms, plus two crawl spaces, plus 1, 2, 3, 4,. Five, five closets and a staircase. Now, where it gets even more complicated is when you go to the ground level, the second floor, and the third floor, there's multiple staircases inside this home that is different from many homes. So when you get to the ground level, you have one staircase that goes to the second floor. You have One staircase that goes through the second and then the third floor. So meaning if you are on the second floor, you can't take both staircases to get to the third floor and to the first floor. There's one staircase that only goes from floor 1 to 2 and there's one staircase that only goes from Floor 2 to 3. So the staircases in part are complicated. But if I'm looking to compromise the security of this home, the broken window that is discussed in the documentary and has been discussed at length on many, anytime this case is talked about, the broken window at the rear of the home, that is exactly where I would break into this house. So you have, in the basement, you have, you have seven windows that you could potentially access this home if you are out there. Look, order a security system from Simplisafe and secure your home. Okay? You can do that yourself. And it's the, it's in my opinion, my humble garage opinion, the best security system out there. Now other security systems, a lot of them are going to send a person out to your house and they're going to sell you equipment. They're going to tell you what you should be concerned about, Mr. Civilian, who, who you don't know anything when they're trying to sell you something. What they're going to point out to you is that you really want to secure your master bedroom. Why? Because that's where the criminals go. Because it's, the statistics are like 70 to 75% of the values inside of a home are stored in the master bedroom. So that's where they want to get to. So especially if you have a ranch home, you really want to secure that master bedroom. So I've had multiple security systems in my homes throughout the years. If you can afford one, I don't see why anybody wouldn't have one. It seems silly not to have one. I've told those, the security persons that you know, they say they're experts, whatever. Great, that's cool. You're an expert at security systems for single family homes. I was a security Administrator for a 28 story multi million dollar building and property for 3 years. Access points is all you give a goddamn about. The access points. The easiest access points to almost any home is basement windows. You break them, they're usually pretty thin glass and you work your way, you just slide right in. You know why? Because when you leave the home, guess where you're not leaving through the basement window. There are doors that you're going to leave through on the ground level because that you're Looking to do a smash and grab and get the heck out of there. Now, what's interesting to me here is if there were an intruder there, there are so many doors and windows in this home, you could say that this guy, this person or persons could have come in anywhere. But what we do know is that there was a broken window, there was an open window. And then later Lou Smith, who works the case, says this great was lifted up and the person climbed right down through the grate and there were three windows right there. They went in the middle window. And to be clear, Lou Smith is actually saying. He's not being that definitive about it. He's, he's simply saying he believes the intruder either entered through that window or left through that window or both. That window, I tell you, is one of the four. If you, if you just can't walk, you're not going to go in the front of this house. Why? That's the street view. That's, that's where you're going to be seen. These guys don't want to be seen. You go in through the back. And the best points of entry for the back of the home are these four windows at the back of the home. And one of them we do know was found broken and open, according to John Ramsey, which I find that statement to be very interesting. We talked about that in our previous coverage. We'll circle back to the window because we could spend a lot of time on the window.
- [27:40]
The Captain
I also don't have to take John Ramsey's word for it. There was other eyewitnesses that saw the broken and open window and also statements from law enforcement.
- [27:49]
Nick
Yes. And the other thing here, too is to point out some other access points. On the main floor, the ground level, you have 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. You have six doors that lead to the yard, to the outside of the home.
- [28:08]
The Captain
Yeah. So any of those could have been unlocked. And we also have, I think it's not that hard to gain access. There was a second level balcony to JonBenet's window, to JonBenet's room. And then there was also a bigger balcony that would have led you into the common area of the second floor.
- [28:30]
Nick
Yeah. So the captain's correct. There's two balconies. One of them is a small balcony which would lead directly to JonBenet's bedroom. The other balcony is quite large and would lead you into a child's playroom, which is. Separates. Without going into the complexity of the second level, the child's playroom separates. Burke's room from JonBenet's room it that large balcony, you can access both the children's playroom and Burke's bedroom. Now, if you are entering this home with the purpose of kidnapping JonBenet or doing something to her, you are going to want to avoid that large balcony if you have any prior knowledge of the home. Why? Because your target is nowhere near this large balcony and you're closer to the street view and you are directly below John and Patsy Ramsey's bedroom. At this point, if you don't want to be heard, if you don't want to disturb and wake the parents, you are going to avoid the large balcony if you have knowledge of this home. So I agree the, the. And it's, it's simply. There is no right or wrong here. This is just a matter of opinion. I agree that the complexity of the house, that it is complicated, that it is unique, that it is large, that it would be very confusing to maneuver in the dark. The problem being that it directly points toward the Ramses being involved is a. That doesn't account for people that have prior knowledge to the home, that have been in the home before. Mind you, they had people that worked for them. They had a lot of contractors that were in and out over their time there. And they had a lot of guests. They threw parties, large Christmas party. They had decorators in and out of there, people interior decorators, decorators for these parties and caterers. And then on top of that doesn't account for something that has always been a speculation on this case. The Ramseys were gone for several hours before returning home that night. If the intruder entered the home while they were gone, the intruder may have time to educate themselves as to the layout of the house, to walk the house, to take a look at what is my route from her bedroom to the basement or my route from her bedroom to one of these six doors on the ground level to get the hell out of here. So I don't think that, I don't think that this points directly either way. I don't think you can look at this one aspect and go, okay, well, it had to be the ransom. I love giving gifts and I love getting gifts. It's great when you can get someone a gift that they wouldn't necessarily get for themselves. That little bit of luxury that they don't know they're missing. For quality gifts at an affordable price, there's Quint. Quint lets you treat your loved ones and yourself to everyday luxury at an affordable price. From 14 karat gold jewelry to Italian leather handbags. All Quint Items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. I love shopping for the holidays@quince.com Are you looking for some gift ideas? Quince.com has candles, slippers, hats, scarves, sweaters and cashmere. Give the gift of luxury at a great, affordable price with Quince.com gift luxury this holiday season without the luxury price tag. Go to quince.comgarage for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's Q U I N C E dot com garage to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.comgarage we vibe is the brand for couples sex toys. Their passion for innovation and quality is what turns them on. Their goal is to help partners achieve unforgettable shaky leg orgasms with their range of couples vibrators that inspire sexploration. There's something for every budget and experience level. During the holidays, you may have extra time for intimacy. Take advantage of those moments or an entire Day with We Vibe Sync2. Sync2's adjustable hinge allows you to fit the toy comfortably to target the G spot and clitoris. Whether it's a quickie in front of the fire or a holiday marathon, Sync2 stays in place even when you change positions. Take control of the vibrations with your remote or We Vibe app. Tis the season to be playful. Check out the We Vibe couples vibrator comparison chart on we-vibe.com to find the right toy for you. From December 10th to the 17th. Use code We Vibe20 to save 20% on spicy holiday gifts. Shop We Vibe at we-vibe.com this show.
- [33:43]
The Captain
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- [34:48]
Nick
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- [36:31]
The Captain
All right, we are back. Cheers mates. Cheers to you, Colonel Talk. Hands in the air.
- [36:38]
Nick
Tall cans in the air indeed. Now expanding on the home a little bit. One thing we saw in the documentary was a lot of footage of camera footage of the home immediately after the crime took place, which shows a very messy home. It shows many rooms were in disarray. One interesting aspect to consider here is this is going to make searching the home and collecting evidence quite difficult. Now keep in mind, it's Christmas time, you have two small children in the home. I would expect to find the home in disarray.
- [37:12]
The Captain
Yeah, I think some of the rooms were organized in to put on a show for people. And then I think there's other rooms like when they get into the basement, you can see that these rooms have not been cleaned or organized for a long time. Again, this is what makes it hard because if you're going through the house and law enforcement is telling you, which was a mistake to tell the family, go through the house. Let us know if there's anything out of order. If there's something that's there, that shouldn't be there, or something that's missing. Well, when your house is a mess, it's hard to know what should be there and what shouldn't be there. And so there's a lot of arguments with John Ramsey's statements about this suitcase and it being under the window that he says, well, that shouldn't have been there. I just question, did they know what should have been there and what shouldn't have been there? The other problem is collecting evidence. And there's a lot of people that claim there is no evidence of an intruder. Well, again, if you have something that was left by the intruder, but we don't have a clear understanding of where that item came from, and this is a clear understanding of the people that lived in the house, then this is going to make it way more complicated for law enforcement.
- [38:39]
Nick
The interesting thing here, and this is something that's been talked about for many, many years, is it also makes it difficult to figure out what items belong to the Ramses of what didn't. Because it didn't seem like with some items in particular, if they. They seem a bit clueless if that item was something that belonged to them or not. And I'm with you on the suitcase. It's like, okay, so the suitcase is not where it should be. But that's the kids, like, play area, for a lack of better term. Did the kids play with that suitcase and move it?
- [39:18]
The Captain
Right.
- [39:19]
Nick
You know, I've seen small children play with empty boxes. So anything is a toy when you're at a certain age and you have a designated play area.
- [39:29]
The Captain
So there was an interview with John Ramsey where he was saying, looking back on this 27 years later, he's not even. He doesn't. He isn't confident that that's even their suitcase. So. And some people go, what do you mean you're not confident about this? Well, you have to remember one, his age, he's in his 80s, and it was 27 years ago. And I think we have this belief that because his child was murdered that he would know every single detail and that he would have read every single book. And that's just not true. And so there's probably some armchair detectives out there that have a better knowledge and better understanding of the details in this case than John Ramsey himself. But he might have been listening to our podcast because I think both of us lean towards the idea if there was an intruder, that the intruder entered the house when they're away at the dinner party. And. And John says that in this documentary. So I thought that was an interesting point that he made during this cold case.
- [40:39]
Nick
Well, and I mean, but it's also not a statement that he hasn't said before. I found at least One statement from 2020 where he said the same thing. And I'm assuming that he has said that before. And it's gotten to the point here, Captain, where I've reviewed and read so many books on the case, I have a hard time placing what information came from, from which book. But, yeah, he's. He said this before, but with. In regard to the suitcase. Think about it in this way. What did he say about the window? I broke it in the summertime so I could get into the home. I had locked myself out. I broke that window and I climbed in. I thought it was fixed, but maybe I was wrong. So we're talking about something was broken several months earlier. And he's not even clear if it was fixed or not. So why the hell would he know where hell suitcase is supposed to be?
- [41:30]
The Captain
And I don't understand why we don't have a clear answer on that. If I was law enforcement, my first thing would, look, this is a busy man. This is a big house. They had several people that did work for the house. Let's figure out if the window was fixed or not. Because if the window was fixed and now it's broken, well, that's evidence of an intruder.
- [41:55]
Nick
And can I point to it this way? We talked about this in our initial coverage in 2019. That statement by John Ramsey has always. I've always found it to be intriguing because he's an intelligent guy. Right here you have a situation where police are looking at you and they're kind of casting suspicion on you. And you have this opportunity with this broken window that's open. And his response is, I thought we fixed it. But maybe I'm wrong. I'm the one that broke into that window in the summertime.
- [42:28]
The Captain
Right?
- [42:29]
Nick
He had an opportunity there if he was trying to cover something up, to say, well, guys, come on, look. Look at this broken window. Of course we know what's going. No, he doesn't say that. He's like, I don't. You know, I'm pretty sure we fixed that window.
- [42:44]
The Captain
And I think that's evidence that somebody could point to the fact that John Ramsey wasn't trying to cover something up. But a couple things that were found in the home. There was a rope that was found in the spare bedroom. Now, we don't know where that rope came from. Now, a lot of people Go. Well, rope found in a spare bedroom. That, that's evidence of an intruder. Also, what was happening at the time was there was a lot of decorations, Christmas decorations to this house. So then that makes me wonder, was there somebody that was paid to set up these decorations and was this an item that they were going to use for decorations and they just left it in the spare bedroom? Because like we said, the house is big, it's complex. Did somebody just leave it behind? The Ramsey say, we don't know where this rope came from. But again, how many people were working in your house? What items were brought into your house? But we do know that the paintbrush was found in the home. And then we have a baseball bat that was found in the backyard. And then we have a mag flashlight that was found in the house. But when people talk about, well, the bat might have been used, because we know that JonBenet had blunt force trauma to her head. So is it caused by this bat or was it caused by this mag flashlight? Neither one of those had any evidence that they were used in the crime.
- [44:17]
Nick
They found none of JonBenet's blood on those items, I believe is what we're saying here. So to be. I want to be perfectly honest, we're not going. I'm not going to have some definitive answers on some of these items because it's been reported differently and frankly, I think reported by some what I believe to be pretty good sources here. As for the flashlight, there are sources that state that that flashlight belonged to the Ramses and it appears to be out of place because it was found in the kitchen, correct?
- [44:52]
The Captain
Yes.
- [44:52]
Nick
Other sources state the flashlight did not belong to the Ramses. Therefore, if you are a big fan of transfer theory, as I am, then that is suggestive that somebody left something in the home, likely without knowing, or because they had to flee the home and couldn't retrieve it. And the same would go for the rope. The rope is very intriguing because it seems like that's the one item that all sources agree that the Ramseys are saying that rope is not ours. At least there appears to be some confirmation of that. I'm not going to say that the Boulder police detectives are confirming that, but I'll say that at least multiple sources are confirming that that rope did not belong to them. Could it have been left by decorators or somebody else? Contractor? Possibly possible. The bat, same as the damn flashlight. You go to multiple sources, different books, different news outlets, and it's all over the shop. That bat belonged to the Ramses, didn't belong to the Ramses or they don't. It's uncertain who it belonged to. And at least one other source I found was that Lou Smith and his investigation was very intrigued by the bat found in the backyard of the Ramsey home. Also a bat that was found by police shortly after the crime in a neighboring backyard. Could that bat have just simply belonged to the neighbors? Possibly. But that bat, as far as I understand, in the neighbor yard is same as the bat found in the Ramsey's backyard. Unconfirmed of who exactly it belonged to. Other item would be black duct tape that was used. Well, let me, let me address the paintbrush because it's my understanding that the paintbrush belonged or is believed to have come from Patsy's paint kit.
- [46:52]
The Captain
Yeah, we know, we know that that item was found in the house.
- [46:57]
Nick
Yes. And so, but, but that paintbrush that was used on JonBenet was believed, and I haven't found one source to say otherwise that that paintbrush didn't belong to the Ramses.
- [47:11]
The Captain
Right. Again, that was an item that was found in the house. So we have this paintbrush that they're using to create a garrote. They use this special type of cord. That cord was not found. We didn't find a spool of that cord somewhere else in the house. And then black.
- [47:31]
Nick
And to be clear, the cord is different than the rope just for persons new. Right.
- [47:36]
The Captain
So the cord used for the strangulation, we don't have a bundle of it somewhere else in the house. So we, we believe that cord came from outside the house. Then we have this black duct tape that was found across her mouth. Again, this is a item that we, we don't have a roll of black duct tape somewhere. And this is what kind of drove me nuts just a little bit. They keep showing this duct tape. You have a whole department when you're creating this documentary to, to gather up this evidence that you want to show the world. It's not that hard to find black duct tape. Just make it black duct tape. Because even just those little missed details, somebody's going to say, oh, well, everybody has duct tape in their house. Maybe. And maybe it's a very common item found, but you're more likely to find regular silver duct tape than you are black duct tape. So black duct tape and the cord used in the strangulation, both of those items we can't say came from the house. So that would be some evidence that there was possibly an intruder.
- [48:52]
Nick
Yes. And keep in mind with the. I believe it was with the duct tape that they had found a receipt, a cash receipt from a local hardware store. That doesn't define the purchase that was made. So they don't know what item was purchased. But the price of whatever item was purchased from that hardware store in December leading up to the murder was the same price as duct tape at that store. So that could. And when I say a purchase, it was a purchase made by the Ramseys.
- [49:33]
The Captain
Well, one could make an argument that there was black duct tape in the house and somebody used it and then took the. The rest of the roll with them. You could also make the same argument about the cord. They cut a cord. The remaining cord. That cord was found in the house. The intruder used it and then took the remaining cord with him. That, that. Those are all possibilities.
- [49:58]
Nick
Yeah. That took. Took something that belonged to the Ramses or brought something with them to the scene. We've spent a good deal of time on the ransom letter on this show over the years. We've even revisited the ransom letter on at least one occasion on off the Record. But one thing that is brought up time and time and time again is in this docu series we have FBI Agent Ron Walker, and he's not. This is not where this starts. This started with the detectives, the Boulder police detectives. But in the docu series, we have FBI agent Ron Walker stating that ransom notes are typically short. That's why they're typically referred to as a ransom note, because notes are short. This I would call ransom letter because it's three pages long. They are telling us, or at least planting the seed, that this is suggestive of somebody who does not, who has not committed this type of crime before. It's showing a level of inexperience and also a let, a level of window dressing, if you will, smoke and mirrors. Paint, paint the picture that there was an intruder, that this ransom, that somebody did take the girl or attempted to take the girl and was seeking a ransom. But the length of the letter is indicative that the Ramseys are guilty and manufactured the letter.
- [51:27]
The Captain
Yeah. So I think the claim is that this, this is a bogus letter, that there was no intention for a kidnapping. So you could go, well, this is the Ramsey's staging this whole kidnapping scenario. You could also make an argument that after the intruder killed JonBenet that he wrote this ransom note to throw off law enforcement. At the end of the day, they think this, this, this ransom note is bogus. My question would be, okay, if they're typically shorter, do we have a percentage, do we have a percentage of ransom notes that are Longer. And what's the percentage? Because to me, you have to look at evidence and go, is this evidence of fact or is this evidence of dis. Possibility? And so to me, this is just evidence of possibility. This possibly means that the note is completely bogus. But in the documentary, we find that John Ramsey hands two notepads to law enforcement to initially, right away, hey, we have this ransom note. We want copies of your handwriting. We need handwriting samples from you and from your wife. So John Ramsey goes and finds two pads, a paper, and he takes those and he gives those to law enforcement. So my question is, if John Ramsey was trying to cover this up, and we believe one of the notepads he gave to law enforcement is the notepad that the ransom notes come from, if he knew that Patsy wrote the ransom notes on that pad of paper, why would he hand that pad of paper to law enforcement? It doesn't make a lot of sense to me. And then this whole idea that there was earlier drafts, because they find on the top of one page of the notepad, Mr. And Mrs. Line, again, maybe this is evidence to point to the possibility that somebody was. That somebody had a draft or earlier draft of the ransom note and they started over again. But Mr. And Mrs. Line doesn't tell me anything. Now, if it was Mr. And Mrs. R, I go, okay, that's more evidence of. That's a possibility. But again, I just think, again, you have to look at this evidence and go, is this evidence of fact or is this just evidence of possibility?
- [54:06]
Nick
And that. That's exactly right. You. You nailed it there. Because the claim is that this is the first draft, right? The person sat down, and I'm back up the bus a little bit here, because I. If the intruder theory works, if that's. If that's the solution to this, I believe that, like John Ramsey said and like some others have said before us, that the intruder went into that home before while they were gone at the dinner party that night, and had ample time inside the home alone or with whoever was assisting in this mess. Therefore, I believe if the intruder theory works, that the letter was drafted before the abduction attempt and murder. If, in fact, it truly was going to be an abduction attempt. You ask what percentage? Reviewing a lot of cases. I've never seen a ransom. Let's even go to this to the extent to say, ransom letter. I've never seen a ransom letter more than one page. Most of time, they're. They're three sentences, four sentences. They're very short. So this is abnormal. I would call that abnormal. But I do want to point out this. Boulder police openly say so you have on record on camera on the docu series that we're discussing today, Boulder law enforcement stating, I don't believe that we've ever had a kidnapping for ransom in this city before in the entirety time that this city has existed. We've never had a kidnapping for ransom that this individual, that this agency is aware of. But then you're going to tell me that the letter doesn't fit because it doesn't look like other kidnapping ransom letters. You just told me a second ago that you've never had a crime like this in your city. Not saying that you wouldn't know what those look like or can't compare it or reach out to other agencies. What I'm saying is this, regardless if it were to be a kidnapping for ransom or painted to be that way by somebody other than the Ramses, you are openly saying you've never had a crime like this. So don't try to wedge it into a little cookie cutter business of what it's supposed to look like. You've just told me this case is unique. I would expect if this case is unique, that there are unique aspects and evidence in this case.
- [56:49]
The Captain
I can only speculate what I think I would do if I was law enforcement. But there is a thing called hold back information. And this ransom note to me is hold back information. This note would have never been leaked. I would never have anybody in the public. It'd be 27 years later and people would be going, there's a ransom note or letter. And maybe law enforcement says, well, it's a little bit longer than a normal ransom note. But 27 years later, the public would still be wondering what that note said because this is not something I would.
- [57:26]
Nick
Have released to the public almost six years. And in the Delphi case, police gave no indication that there was a gun used in the commission of those murders. Almost six years. And then even after an arrest was made, they didn't confirm that until it went to trial. So I'm with you, Captain. I think that was a. If there was, they could have kept some things under wraps here. And this ransom letter should have been a big part of that. Now, I do want to point out something because we've danced on this a little bit with John Ramsey. Well, if he knew Patsy Ramsey wrote this letter there, why would he give this notepad to the police if John knew that Patsy, that if John was covering up the murder of his daughter, why would he openly discuss the window that he broke it that summer. I want some people to keep this in mind and us to keep it in mind as well. Steve Thomas, who was one of the lead investigators on this case, and why, while I may not agree with his hypothesis, as he likes to call it, on what happened there that night, his book is very good. I've read it several times. I recommend it to everybody. Regardless of what theory you think is correct. And even if you have a theory, who cares? Continue the investigation, continue to seek information, because we don't know until we know. But Steve Thomas's hypothesis, his theory is that Patsy Ramsey's responsible and John Ramsey was not aware. Now, he may have become aware at some point, but was not aware that night or even that morning. So what that would imply to me is that he is not participating in the COVID up because he doesn't know that he should be.
- [59:33]
The Captain
Exactly. And I think that would make sense with a lot of John Ramsey's actions.
- [59:41]
Nick
And that leads to this, this other topic here, crime scene containment. And let's put containment in air quotes there, because there was no containment of the crime scene. And that I think is, is one of the biggest problems in this case. Whether there was a cover up by the Ramses or by just one of the Ramses or if there was an intruder and collecting evidence and all that. We know that the, the police did not contain the scene when they arrived there thinking that there was an abduction. They did not contain the scene at all. And the Ramseys didn't contain the scene either. But they're civilians. They're. They're, you know, and if in fact their daughter, if in fact they believe that their daughter was kidnapped, they're probably not in the right state of mind. But this is one thing that absolutely ticks me off about this case and Boulder PD's handling of this case. They don't talk about this case a whole lot. But when they do notice what they say really police their words, they choose to make things convenient for their investigation. Right. Meaning, oh, well, this was probably not an abduction attempt for ransom because our city's never had one before.
- [61:06]
The Captain
Right. Makes no sense.
- [61:08]
Nick
Right. But then when asked, well, why didn't you contain the scene? Why didn't you lock down the damn house? Then they say, well, when we got there, it appeared that an abduction had taken place. Okay, so which is it? We reviewed the letter and immediately that's telling us that someone inside the home killed the girl or somebody, something happened inside this home. We've not even found the girl yet. So when it's convenient for them. They point to, well, things look the way that they did look. When they want to tell you that the Ramses know what happened to their daughter, they point to, oh, it was a cover up and these guys didn't know what they were doing. And here's, here's poking holes in their cover up and why it doesn't work. You can't use that for both arguments. You can't, you, you can't say, well, we did our job best to our ability, but it was complicated because of this. No, the truth at the end of the day is you didn't. Regardless of what you thought when you arrived, you didn't contain the scene, you didn't secure evidence and you didn't search the home completely. There's no nice way of putting it. The dead girl is in the basement. You didn't find her after searching the home twice. And in the docu series, when Patsy Ramsey says, and of course this is old video footage, she's saying, while we were there waiting for the phone call or waiting from, for contact from the, the kidnappers, I asked the police, well, what are you doing outside of this home? Are you, did you shut down any of the roads? Are you, are you searching the airport? And I it sarcastically in my head when I'm watching that part of this docu series, I said to myself, pretending to be the officer responding to her question, well, no ma'am, we, we're not searching the airport. Hell, we've not even fully searched your home yet.
- [63:05]
The Captain
Right.
- [63:05]
Nick
This is interesting because the Linda Arendt part. So Linda Arndt was at the scene very early on and she was tasked with trying to keep everybody calm and try to keep everybody at bay. Remember, she even says in many statements that she was in charge of keeping everybody inside the home. So now inside the home we have Father Hoverstock, we have some of the Ramsey's friends that were, that were at the dinner party with them the night before. And at this time, everybody, the girl is missing, they've not found her in the basement yet. In this docu series we see footage, this is old footage that had been on magazine shows many, many years ago. But it's Linda Arndt saying that, well, John Ramsey's doing all these suspicious actions. Now one thing she's always said is that she was having trouble keeping him in the den in his office area. She had told him to go into the den and that she was having trouble keeping him in there. Again, why do you need to keep him in there? If, if if law enforcement is telling us all these years later, well, when we arrived on the scene, it looked like an abduction. You don't need to keep him in there. Number two, they point out, like, well, he was going through his mail, like he doesn't care. Like, well, why wouldn't he care? Because he already knows what happened. He's part of the COVID up or he killed his daughter. And Ramsey states in the docu series, well, I was going through the mail because I thought, well, maybe I didn't have to go out to the mailbox and collect it. It comes through the mail. Shoot. And he thought, well, maybe if there, if the kidnappers try to contact us, maybe somebody dropped a letter or wrote a letter and there would be further instruction. I don't think that fully explains it away, but I look, I have a very big. Linda Arndt is a very big problem for me for many reasons. One, I feel bad for her because she was at that scene all by herself with so many people inside that home. And people have said, well, she didn't do a very good job while she was inside that home. Keep in mind, if any, if you held rank at all at Boulder pd, it's Christmas time. You were not working that day. Not only that, a lot of those dudes were on vacation. A lot of, a lot of the higher ups, men and women, were on vacation. Some of them not even in the area. We know Steve Thomas, who's a detective, he wasn't even in Boulder when this took place. She, where I feel bad for her is she is being blamed for not containing and the people inside that home. And yet when she called for help many times and kept asking, are you sending anybody else out here? A couple of those calls, they didn't even bother to respond to her. They didn't even bother to say, no, we're not sending anybody. They just didn't even respond to her. Can you imagine? And then later being blamed for something like, you gave me an impossible task and then you criticize me openly to the public for not being able to fulfill that task.
- [66:11]
The Captain
Right.
- [66:12]
Nick
But then she goes on camera saying how guilty she thinks John Ramsey is. One thing that's missing from this, this whole portion of the story is Linda Arndt was consoling, openly consoling the Ramseys after JonBenet was found dead. And I'm not talking about right then and there. I'm talking weeks and maybe even months afterwards words.
- [66:36]
The Captain
Well, and that's a problem with this case is there's so many people that have given their Opinions, but their, their facts, quote, unquote, facts of what happened changed after they came up with their own theory. And so John Ramsey states that he thought if he could keep his wits about him that he could get his daughter back. And so you have this guy that thinks in this moment and that, and that to me makes a lot of sense if you're a parent. Oh my God, my kid's missing. What can I do? Stay calm. That's the only chance that we have to get her back. If I'm law enforcement, I'm saying, if you don't live here, get the F out. Everybody else sit in this room. Now we're clearing the house. We're going to make sure that this kidnapper is still not in the house. We're going to make sure that this victim is still not in the house. Once I do a search, I'm going to go back and take John Ramsey. Everybody else sit here. We're going to go search the house. Do you. Does anything look out of place to you? You know, give me information as we're going through every room, then I'm sitting his ass down. And I'm doing the same thing with Patsy. I'm going through all that again. I'm trying to contain the situation because what they had was the worst thing happen is apparent to find the victim and then contaminate the scene even more. Linda aren't. Look, you want to talk about. She is assuming somebody's demeanor. She's assuming somebody's actions as strange. This is not evidence. This is just somebody's opinion. Again, like you said, I think you could argue that her opinion changed completely. And this was, hey, if I say I exchanged looks with John Ramsey and he like, let me know that he was the killer, this makes a better story and maybe I can make some money off of it because obviously I'm awful at my fucking job. And so then just watch her interview and tell me what you think of her demeanor. Just watch her interview. Tell me what you think about her actions. I mean, out of all the people that I've watched interview and some of those were serial killers, she comes off like the craziest person I think I've ever seen interviewed. So I just think, and maybe one could argue that she feels like she did mess up and that she was getting on by people for messing up. So this is her excuse on, on why that happened. But she also moved the victim. She made so many mistakes and I think this was her way to try to distance herself from the mistakes that she made. Instead of just owning up to them again.
- [69:42]
Nick
I have a big problem with an officer. Technically, she was a detective at this time, calling for help and asking, are you sending anybody else and not even getting an answer. I mean, come on. Right?
- [69:54]
The Captain
Yeah, but it's a huge mistake to then tell the big. The biggest father to go check the house again with no law enforcement present with him.
- [70:04]
Nick
The biggest, the biggest advantage that law enforcement has over criminals is that the manpower, the people power, the resources, the communication that you can team up and gang up on a situation so you can control a situation here. They put her out there and just let her drowned, basically. But look, I'll try to give her the benefit of the doubt. Maybe she's doing good detective work and consoling. The problem I have is her consoling the Ramsey's later days and weeks after the murder, but in the moment saying to herself, oh, I knew right then that John Ramsey killed his daughter. Well, then why are you consoling them? Well, maybe that's good detective work and she's trying to be a friend and thinks that maybe she can get some information from them later. So I'll give her the benefit of the doubt there. But then when you complain later that you can't control John Ramsey and keep him in the den and then you send him off on searching the house, well, that seems counterintuitive to what your initial goal was of keeping him in the office.
- [71:15]
The Captain
Right? I mean, a lot of her story just doesn't make any sense. And what do we learn from this docu docu series? We learned that many law enforcement agents that were not directly involved in the case were hearing the parents are responsible, and then they all went, okay, well, these detectives must know what they're talking about. So we're just going to assume that they're guilty as well, you know, and, and to go back to Steve Thomas for a minute, he admits through his deposition that this was a plan. He, he says through the FBI, I think again, to distance himself from criticism, but it was a plan to leak information and they were leaking lie after lie after lie instead of just doing their job. And it's pathetic to any case that we covered if we found out years later that there was handfuls of lies leaked to media. That's buffoonery. I mean, they. But.
- [72:33]
Nick
But it does happen. It's. This is not the only case where, where police have taken that tactic. But also, but to this degree, it seems.
- [72:43]
The Captain
Yeah, but also, if this is why you'll have somebody like Ashley Flowers interview John Ramsey and not the captain interviewed John Ramsey. Because I would love to scream at him. You, you want to crucify law enforcement. But you wanted them so badly to investigate this case with their hands tied behind their back. And I understand that, you know, he says that they gave them handwriting samples and DNA samples and all this stuff, but you didn't sit down for interviews. You, you, you prefer to sit down on CNN and do an interview that you probably could control the questions. And there's. If you would adjust. And I, I get that there's this idea that, well, they're looking at us for this crime. That's the only people they're looking at. But some of that comes from not being cooperative with law enforcement. If you have some unskilled, untrained law enforcement agents and go, okay, well, they're just not being that cooperative with us. And you think law enforcement is tunnel vision. Some could argue that law enforcement has never moved on past the theory that it was the Ramses. But I think the Ramses are partly to blame. Why we're sitting 27 years later and this case isn't solved. And some people will go, well, you're victim blaming. Well, what do we know? Most likely. Statistics tell us the victim's found in the house. It's most likely the killer is from in the house. The age of the victim is more likely that they're going to be killed by a family member than an unknown person. So I think when you put all that into account, and again, we're not privy to all the information. So for all we know, yeah, the, the Ramses lawyered up, but the lawyer was super cooperative. And this is just another lie by law enforcement to say the Ramseys weren't cooperative at all. You know, maybe it's somewhere in the middle. But I think both are to blame. We have, you know, bumbling buffoons of law enforcement. And then we have a very suspicious. I think two are to blame. We have bumbling buffoons of a police department, and then we have a family that feels like they're under a magnifying glass. And instead of opening up and sharing as much as they could, I think.
- [75:28]
Nick
The difficult thing becomes for the parents. Let's look at this part from they, them being innocent, right? If they're, if they're being, if they are innocent, the difficult thing then becomes, one, we're greet, we're trying to grieve, and two, we see the police looking a lot at us and not looking anywhere else. You know me, man, I want justice as much as anybody Else in every case out there, not just this one. In every case out there. But I don't know how much I'm cooperating with police either, given my wealth of knowledge about cases, because we've reviewed so many cases over the years. If I start thinking, well, they're looking at me, oh, and then I can compound that with, I don't see any evidence that they're looking outside of my home for anybody. And I know I didn't kill my daughter, but fuck you. I ain't agree. I ain't doing. I helping you with your investigation. Get outside of my house and start looking for somebody, man. And you're right. And I think part of this, too, is if they are innocent, then you are a civilian. You're not trained in any of this. You don't know what the investigation is doing in front of you. Behind the scenes. You are likely going off of the advice of your counsel that you've hired. And if. If the attorney I hire says, nick, if you talk to them, you, you. You stand a chance that they'll never go out and look for the real killer, that they're going to lock your ass up.
- [77:10]
The Captain
Yeah. And I think if you're the Ramseys, if you're John Ramsey, the tragedy. The tragedy already happened. Your kid is already dead. So maybe they don't solve the case. But a bigger tragedy. Bigger tragedy would be for the blame to be put on one of us or both of us. And again, we have other children that we have to be responsible for. So I get why they did it, but I think it's a part of the equation of why it's not solved after 27 years. And then Boulder comes out in the last week or so and makes these statements about the case and what they're working on and claims, hey, we made a lot of mistakes and we got to take ownership of that. That's easy to do when you're the new person on the case, is to say, well, we made a lot of mistakes and we're going to take ownership of those mistakes that I didn't make, but other people made. But even John Ramsey's response to that was, I need to know what they're doing. I need to know details. And if you tell me those details and you give me this information, I'll shut up and I'll let you just do your job. But until then, I'm not going to shut up. And you want to say, well, John Ramsey, that's not how this works. They don't have to give you all the information of what they're doing and why they're doing it. It's an open investigation for a reason.
- [78:44]
Nick
Exactly.
- [78:45]
The Captain
So I do think that is kind of telling of how John Ramsey views this. And again, I mean, there could be just a ton of frustration from his end.
- [78:54]
Nick
But, and, and I want to be clear, I, I, I want to be clear here because sometimes people hear things that we're not saying and, and sometimes.
- [79:02]
The Captain
That'S our fault, but mostly my fault.
- [79:06]
Nick
What I do want to say here is if somebody believes that the lack of cooperation by the Ramses points toward their guilt, I can agree with that. I can absolutely agree with that thought, that opinion. So I'm not dismissing it completely. I'm also trying to look at it from the angle of if they are true victims, why they may not have cooperated. And look, not to make light of the situation, but we opened up the show with a Seinfeld reference. And so maybe we close the show and the show today on a Seinfeld reference. Anybody that's watched that show, remember the Jackie Chiles, Cosmo Kramer relationship? Jackie Chiles was the fictional lawyer on that show. And on multiple occasions he got involved with Kramer who was suing a big business. And Kramer always mucked up the situation because he would make a decision on his own without his attorney. He would make a decision or agree to something with this big company or a settlement with the large company without the counsel that he seeked out and hired for to represent him. And what was Jackie Child's response every time was who told you to talk to them? Did I tell you to talk to them? Why did you talk to them? And he always, he always messed up their case. And I don't know, I'm not trying to make light of the situation, but that I think is kind of a funny way to really point out. Well, if in this situation, if the Ramseys who did hire attorneys, tell them, do not talk to them without us present or without us controlling the situation, you might want to follow that. You're paying for that advice. You might want to follow that advice.
- [81:20]
The Captain
So as you can tell, this case makes me heated. This document makes me heated as well. I don't know why I get so worked up about this case, but I think it's because at the end of the day we have a six year old victim that had so much more of her life to live. And whether you think the family is responsible or an intruder is responsible, she didn't get to live out the remaining days of her life. We're going to talk more about this because there's, we have a whole list of points still left to get to. So we're going to get to those on off the Record. So for those that are fascinated by the JonBenet Ramsey case, join us for part two and possibly part three on off the Record. And if this is just a case that you're tired of, I get that sentiment as well.
- [82:17]
Nick
Not every case is not for every person. And I will go ahead and say shame on you, Captain, for getting so worked up during this episode. Episode. I was able to stay calm the entire time.
- [82:27]
The Captain
Yes. No f bombs dropped.
- [82:29]
Nick
Nothing at all on my part. So I, I don't know why you can't conduct yourself in a more professional manner, but no, I. Look, look, if you're sick of this case, of course you're not. You're just not interested anymore. I get it. But for the rest of us that are very interested in this case, and as you can tell, the Captain and I are extremely. If you have a heartbeat, man, it's hard not to get all worked up about this case. It's incredibly frustrating. It's, it's, it's very frustrating that it's not been solved. And it's easy to get angry that at the investigation itself and that it's dragged on. And so we apologize to everybody out there for getting worked up. But guess what? We got heartbeats here. We got big hearts. And it's that time of year again.
- [83:15]
The Captain
Big hearts and big farts.
- [83:16]
Nick
That's right. So if you are already a subscriber, make sure you check out off the record where we will continue the conversation. If you're not a subscriber, consider it. It's available on Apple subscription and also on Patreon. We want to thank everybody for listening to us scream and yell at the walls here today. Wherever you are, we hope you're happy and safe, enjoying life. And if you haven't checked out the docu series yet, make sure you check that out. And until next time, be good, be kind and don't let it. Hey, are you having a hard time dealing with high interest credit card debt? It's normal. And a SOFI personal loan could help you save thousands by consolidating your dead to one low fixed monthly payment. You could get 5,000 to $100,000 as soon as the same day you sign with no fees required. It only takes 60 seconds to view your rate and it won't affect your credit score. View your rate@sofi.com paidoff loans originated by Sofi Bank NA member FDIC terms and conditions@sofi.com paidoff nmls696891.