Delphi Murders Trial ////// 794

Summary

True Crime Garage Episode 794: Delphi Murders Trial

Release Date: October 16, 2024
Hosts: Nick and the Captain

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Introduction

In this urgent and unscheduled episode, hosts Nick and the Captain delve deep into the highly anticipated trial of Richard Allen, accused of the brutal Delphi murders. After over seven years since the initial coverage of the case in 2017, the hosts provide a comprehensive update on the trial's progression, shedding light on jury selection, courtroom dynamics, and the strategies employed by both the prosecution and defense.

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Jury Selection Process

Timestamp: 02:15 – 07:30

Nick begins by highlighting the commencement of jury selection in Fort Wayne, Allen County, Indiana, on October 14th. The selection aims to compile a panel of 16 jurors—12 primary members and four alternates—over three days. Given the high-profile nature of the case and the small population of Delphi (approximately 3,000 residents), the selection takes place two hours away in Fort Wayne to ensure an unbiased jury.

Notable Quote:
Nick (03:45): “You can't go into Carroll County and think that you're going to walk away with 16 people that are completely unbiased and completely untarnished by the case.”

The process involved mailing out questionnaires to potential jurors, followed by multiple sessions where batches of about 50 individuals were assessed. Both prosecution and defense were allotted ten strikes each to dismiss potential jurors without providing reasons, a standard procedure to ensure impartiality.

Notable Quote:
Nick (13:57): “As a lawyer, you could say, that guy has a stupid face and I don't want him. I don't want to have to look at him.”

By the end of the selection on October 16th, all 16 jurors were chosen, with discussions hinged on the jurors' familiarity and opinions about the case. The hosts emphasize the importance of a fair trial, free from local biases in such a tightly-knit community.

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Courtroom Dynamics and Richard Allen's Appearance

Timestamp: 07:30 – 16:55

The hosts discuss the notable change in Richard Allen’s courtroom appearance. For the first time, Allen attended court not in his traditional prison jumpsuit but in a light purple button-down shirt and khaki pants, displaying a healthier and more composed demeanor.

Notable Quote:
Nick (19:08): “He appears to be stronger. He's got a very close buzz cut and he's clean-shaven in the picture there.”

This shift has sparked speculation about Allen's state of mind and potential strategies being employed by his defense team. Additionally, the courtroom environment in Carroll County is described as more accommodating to media, although access remains restricted, leading to logistical challenges for reporters like Nick.

Notable Quote:
Captain (15:25): “In this courtroom is also a little bit smaller than what they're going to go to in Carroll County, so there is less media there.”

Nick also shares insider information about the difficulty in obtaining press credentials, highlighting the challenges faced by media in covering the trial comprehensively.

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Opening Statements: Prosecution vs. Defense

Timestamp: 18:05 – 26:06

The episode delves into the content of the opening statements from both sides:

• Prosecution: Led by Carroll County Prosecutor Nick McLean, the prosecution asserts that Richard Allen is the “Bridge Guy,” the perpetrator who brutally murdered Libby German and Abigail Williams. They emphasize that Allen confessed to the murders multiple times and present key evidence, including a bullet found at the crime scene.

  Notable Quote:
  McLean (Prosecution): “Bridge Guy brutally murdered the two [girls] and then casually walked back to his car and went home.”

• Defense: Allen’s legal team counters by arguing that his confessions are false and coerced. They claim Allen has confessed to crimes he did not commit and highlight inconsistencies in his statements, such as confessions to murders that did not occur. The defense characterizes the evidence as “soft” and seeks to undermine the credibility of the prosecution’s case.

  Notable Quote:
  Defense: “Allen confessed to a crime he didn't commit and that these are the ingredients for false confessions.”

Nick points out the high number of confessions (over 60) by Allen, including admissions to murders that didn’t take place, suggesting a pattern that could benefit the defense’s narrative of false confessions.

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Key Evidence and Witnesses

Timestamp: 25:17 – 34:06

Nick and the Captain explore the substantial number of witnesses each side plans to call:

• Prosecution: 55 witnesses, focusing on phone data, weapon evidence, fingerprints, and potential alibis.

• Defense: A staggering 120 witnesses, aiming to challenge the prosecution’s evidence and provide alternative narratives.

Notable Quote:
Nick (34:06): “The defense has to do the same thing. They have to list how many witnesses they plan to call. They plan to call 120 witnesses.”

The hosts express skepticism about the trial's projected duration of approximately a month, questioning how the vast number of witnesses will be accommodated within the time frame. They anticipate a rigorous presentation of evidence, including Allen’s multiple confessions and physical evidence from the crime scene.

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Strange and Notable Courtroom Moments

Timestamp: 33:37 – 44:27

Several peculiar incidents during the initial days of the trial are discussed:

1. Psychic Juror Dismissal: A potential juror claiming to be a psychic was swiftly dismissed by the judge, highlighting the court's focus on maintaining a rational and evidence-based trial environment.

   Notable Quote:
   Guest: “I don't have a crystal ball, but I have a crystal ball brain.”

2. Defense Attorney’s Tactic: Andrew Baldwin, a defense attorney, stood behind Allen during questioning, placing his hands on Allen’s shoulders and urging jurors to consider the possibility of Allen’s innocence. Allen’s subsequent smile at the jury admittedly left jurors in a state of shock.

   Notable Quote:
   Nick (41:02): “The prosecution jumps up. It's like, objection, your honor.”

3. Hair Evidence Discrepancies: The defense points out that a hair found in Abigail’s hand does not match Allen's, yet fails to provide detailed information regarding the source of the hair, leaving room for ambiguity and doubt.

   Notable Quote:
   Nick (44:27): “They said, is it male hair or is it female hair? And then is it possible that it actually does match Richard Allen? But we just can't definitively say that because it is a hair fiber without the bulb on the hair.”

These moments underscore the intense and sometimes unconventional maneuvers employed by both legal teams to sway the jury's perception.

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Defense Strategy and Confessions

Timestamp: 44:27 – 52:20

The discussion shifts to the defense’s strategy, primarily focusing on discrediting Allen's numerous confessions:

• False Confessions: The defense argues that Allen has provided over 60 confessions, some of which include admissions to crimes he didn’t commit, such as murdering his family members. They suggest that these false confessions undermine his credibility and indicate coercion or psychological manipulation.

  Notable Quote:
  Guest: “They have confessed to crimes that haven't taken place. Like he said, he killed his whole family, he killed his grandchildren.”

• Interruption During Confessions: The prosecution asserts that Allen was interrupted during his confessions, questioning the conditions under which these admissions were made and whether they were voluntary.

• Hair Evidence: The defense emphasizes the presence of a hair in Abigail’s hand that doesn’t match Allen’s, aiming to cast doubt on the forensic evidence presented by the prosecution.

Nick and the Captain debate the implications of these confessions, pondering whether they indicate genuine remorse, psychological distress, or a manipulation tactic by the defense to create reasonable doubt.

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Insights and Conclusions

Timestamp: 52:20 – End

As the episode wraps up, Nick and the Captain reflect on the complexity of the trial:

• Volume of Evidence: The sheer number of witnesses and pieces of evidence expected to be presented make this trial unprecedented, potentially lasting beyond the initial projection of a month.

• Impact on Families: The hosts express empathy for the families involved, acknowledging the prolonged and arduous nature of the legal proceedings.

• Anticipation of Trial Outcomes: Both hosts are keenly interested in how the jurors will interpret the conflicting narratives and whether the defense can effectively challenge the prosecution's case with the multitude of confessions and inconsistent evidence.

Notable Quote:
Nick (52:20): “This is getting us closer to something that we started that unfortunately had to start so long ago. ... The next several weeks are going to be very difficult for a lot of families.”

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Final Thoughts

In this comprehensive update, True Crime Garage provides an in-depth look at the ongoing Delphi murders trial, highlighting the procedural intricacies, strategic courtroom maneuvers, and the emotional toll on those involved. As the trial unfolds, Nick and the Captain promise to continue monitoring and reporting on the pivotal moments that could ultimately determine Richard Allen's fate.

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Remember: If you’re passionate about true crime and want to stay updated on this and other cases, consider supporting True Crime Garage through Patreon or subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

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Transcript

[Nick]

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[Captain]

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[Nick]

Directly to the killer who may be in this room. Only a cow would do such a thing.

[Captain]

What will those closest to you think of when they find out that you.

[Nick]

Brutally murdered two little girls? Only a coward would do such a thing. Don't give up. We will not stop. Welcome to true crime garage, wherever you are, whatever you are doing. Thank you for listening. I'm your host, Nick. And with me as always, of course, we have the captain here. We're kind of breaking in with a little bit of an emergency pod here, kind of unscheduled. Right, Captain? But we wanted to jump in. There's been a lot happening with the deli murders case. As many of you know, the deli murders trial is underway in Indiana. And this is a day that many of us thought may never come. I know for me personally, I went through, through a dark period of about a year, year and a half where I thought that we would never apprehend a suspect, that we would never see somebody walking into a courtroom, being accused and being charged and facing a jury of his peers. But here we are nonetheless, and it's been a long, winding road. It's been over seven years, well over seven years since we first brought this case to you back in 2017 with episodes 110 and 111 on your true crime garage listening dial. We've done over 20 episodes on this case throughout the years, and a large part of those we had nobody in custody. And this was before the arrest of Richard Allen, who was accused of killing the two girls. Now, we wanted to talk about some of the expectations with this trial. There's been a lot of speed bumps along the way. After the arrest. And it looked like maybe this trial was not going to happen or continue to get pushed back. But here we are, October of 2024, and everything is falling into place. So let's go to Fort Wayne, Indiana. This is in Allen County, Indiana, where jury selection started in the case against Richard Allen, who was accused of killing Libby German and Abby Williams back in 2017. This process started on Monday the 14th. And how this jury selection process will work is they are seeking 16 people total to fill the panel, which will be 12 members of the jury and four alternates. One of the things that is important to note here is that the jury selection process is taking place in Allen county and that is roughly like a two hour drive from Delphi, Indiana. So why is that the case? Well, they need to find jury members that don't know too much about the case, specifically don't know too much about Richard Allen, the accused. And if you compare Carroll County, Indiana to Allen County, Indiana, you're talking about Allen county houses, Fort Wayne, Indiana, which is, which is a big, pretty big city, Carroll County. The population of the entire county, of the entire county back in 2017 is roughly 20,000 people, maybe under that. And in the city of Delphi, you have a population back then of 3,000 people. And remember, Captain, when we first started talking about this case In May of 2017, the girls were killed in February. And there was very little information about what had happened, who they were looking for. We knew they were looking for somebody that they were calling bridge guy. But there was so little information that many people steered away from covering this case. And we decided we had to jump in because we wanted to try to help. You had billboards going up, digital billboards going up, and other states. And we wanted to take this from just a, an eyeballs case and bring it to the ear balls of the masses and say, look, we need help finding this bridge guy who is very likely responsible for killing these two girls. Remember when our coverage first started, we talked about the searches that happened. So the girls were missing overnight before they were found the next day. And over 300 people, good people, volunteered their time. Some of this was firefighters, but a lot of this were, was volunteers that came forward and said, yes, I'll go out and help you try to find these poor girls. Over 300 people volunteered their time searching for these girls. And when you compare that to the population of the city of where this took place, well, now you already have, that's roughly 10% of the population of that city. And then years later, fast Forward to the accused is a CVS worker who probably interacted with many people in the public on a daily basis. And let's not forget about all of the people that had some involvement or some ties to this case over that lengthy process between when the crimes occurred and when they finally arrested someone. So really, truly, I think they nailed it. You can't go into Carroll county and think that you're going to walk away with 16 people that are completely unbiased and completely. You don't want a tainted jury pool. Right. No matter how this trial shakes out, at the end of the day, what we want it to be is a fair trial.

[Guest]

Already some of the jury members are the people a part of the selection have stated, hey, I have looked into this case. I have opinions about this case. They will not be. My opinions will not change no matter what evidence you show me. So those individuals obviously have already been kicked out of the jury selection. And then another handful of individuals that said, hey, I've seen a lot of media coverage on this case and so obviously those members have been removed as well.

[Nick]

We won't be featuring a beer today on today's show as we traditionally do because we're doing a more of an.

[Guest]

Well, I'll be drinking one whether you feature one or not.

[Nick]

We're doing a more of an off the record style here today, which for those not familiar is our other show available on Patreon and available on Apple subscription. There's a whole bunch of episodes. If you sign up today, you're going to get all of the episodes that already exist and live there in that space. However, in May of 2017, when we first covered this case, we featured Bohemian Pilsner by the good people at Tin Man Brewing Company. So that's how long ago we first started talking about this case. The process for the jury selection was set up. There was a blueprint laid out for how this trial, they believe the way that it, that it would work and some parameters that they're going to work with inside of. So we have Judge Francis G. Who set aside three full days to select 16 members of the jury. This will be 12 members of the jury and again, four alternates. This would be Monday through Wednesday of this week. So October 14th, 15th and 16th. We're recording today on the 16th, tomorrow on Thursday the 17th. The plan is that the jury will be sworn in and then transported to a hotel. So they have hotel accommodations near Carroll county for the courthouse in Delphi. With the opening statements scheduled to begin Friday morning, October 18th, the jury process. The jury selection process went pretty swimmingly as far as what I have seen and heard from my understanding, Captain, this started a while back with them mailing out a questionnaire mailer that went out some time ago. From there, they've selected what were batches of about 50 people.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Nick]

To come in for morning and then afternoon sessions. And so to be perfectly clear that, not 50 people total. 50 people to come in for a morning session on Monday and then another 50 people to come in for that afternoon session on Monday. And that is to continue until they fill this jury of 16 total people for three days.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Also present in this selection process, of course, will be three attorneys for the state of Indiana and three attorneys for the defense in the courtroom, along with Judge Francis G. One of the things.

[Guest]

I didn't know because I've never seen it in a movie, but when they're doing the jury selection, they have these mini opening statements that are done by the defense and the prosecution. So everybody in that room that they're trying to narrow down, like you said, into the 16 would have heard those mini opening statements. And those happen each day of jury selection.

[Nick]

Yeah. So every time they usher in a new batch of 50 people, they go through this what they're calling mini opening statements, which is to be expected. Right. Because the people there, you have to present this as there should be people arriving that day and each day that may have no awareness of the case at all. Of course, this is a very high profile case, and so that gets a little blurred. The lines get a little blurred there. But in a lot of cases, people are walking in for jury selection. They. They don't know anything of the case that they could potentially be sitting on the jury for. So that is an opportunity where you are kind of explaining to the jury, all right, this is the case, this is the scenario. These are the crimes. And here is the accused, and they are the accused because. And then the defense gets to stand up for a period of time and present a rebuttal. A rebuttal of saying, well, yeah, the state has charged our client, however, this is why he is not guilty. This is how we will show that he's innocent. And they generally talk in very general and vague terms during this process because you got to leave something for the trial and the trials where they're going to get much more in detail with these accusations and with the defense of those accusations, and then attempt to back that up with witnesses and evidence and things of the such. Now, during this jury selection process, each side, the prosecution and the defense received 10 strikes for the jury selection process and two more strikes for the alternate selection process, which this is very common. Anybody that's seen some of the documentaries or even dramatizations of some of the O.J. simpson trial throughout the years will be familiar with this. These 10 strikes are simply each side getting the opportunity to go, all right, that person. No, nope, get them out of the room. And you don't even have to offer. You don't even have to offer a reason. Like, you don't have to. You don't have to say, well, you know, this person should be removed from being a potential juror because of A, B and C. You don't even have to do that. It's just simply, you can say, that one's no good, that person, whatever, and both sides get the process.

[Guest]

As a lawyer, you could say, that guy has a stupid face and I don't want him. I don't want to have to look at him.

[Nick]

And then the judge is like, statements that was unnecessary to say that that man has a stupid face, but the court recognizes that man's stupid face.

[Guest]

Yes.

[Nick]

By the end of Monday, the 14th, they were almost through the process, so it was working. Everything's going great. They had most of the jury selected by that time. In fact, even earlier in the day, by 1pm on Monday, they had 10 jury members selected. So they would break midday before ushering in that second batch of people and delivering a second mini statement. And I believe by the end of Monday that they had all 12 jurors, or they had 12, plus two alternates for the Monday session. So this, then this all wrapped up yesterday with the final two selected.

[Guest]

Well, in this courtroom is also a little bit smaller than what they're going to go to in Carroll county, so there is less media there. But I believe that they were able to accommodate all media. And so we have some reports people saying, well, Richard Allen looks healthier than he has in the past and that he's been wearing basically like a polo shirt and he's taking notes and he's paying attention. And so maybe this whole charade of I'm insane is going to stop.

[Nick]

Yeah. Remember, he was moved to a different facility. So a lot of people now are pointing out, well, he looks a lot healthier since he's been moved to this other facility. And I, Captain, not to go against you, and I may very well be wrong. I have not sat in either of these two courtrooms, but I was under the impression that this courtroom, which is in Fort Wayne, A much larger city as actually the opposite is much larger than the smaller courtroom in the small city of Deli, Indiana. But the Fort Wayne one is a very old. I think it's a very old historical courtroom. So maybe, maybe that is the case that it is much smaller because it was built so many years ago.

[Guest]

Well, the news was reporting that there's, like I said, a handful of media passes now, but at the new court in Carroll county, they'll have more passes for the media and for family members.

[Nick]

Are we sure that they're giving passes to the media? Because the statements I've been that I've read is they were giving no passes to any media and for either process, the trial or the jury selection and that it was a first come, first serve basis that there's a line of persons out in front of the courtroom to take a seat each day and that they only have.

[Guest]

Well, I think that's what they mean by pass is there's seats available for media.

[Nick]

And I'll kind of pull back the curtain a little bit because I have some insider knowledge on some of this. I applied for a press credential for the trial and I was placed on a list of people that would be granted press credentials should they give them out. Now, that doesn't mean that everybody on that list would receive one. So maybe I wouldn't receive one. Maybe they would only give out X amount of press credentials and passes to these different trials. But even being on that list with the clerk of courts, we were notified persons on that list, we were notified via email a few weeks ago that no, in fact, we are not giving out any press credentials. And unfortunately for me, that made it very difficult for you or I to attend one of, you know, a day or a week or portions of this trial because of the distance between where we are and where this trial is taking place. And considering that boots on the ground, people that we've talked to, attorneys, people in law enforcement, and now you have people in the media backing this up.

[Guest]

Right.

[Nick]

They're saying that people are arriving as early as 5am sometimes a little bit earlier than 5am to get their place in line to get into the courtroom. And keep in mind, these courtrooms don't open until 8:30 and most of the time there's a bit of a delay getting in there. 8:45am so that's a long time to stand in line after having driven so many, you know, a couple hundred miles to get out there in the first place. And as to what you were saying, as to Your point here, Captain, about Richard Allen's appearance. Real quick, dog of note, some items here. On Sunday, the court system updated Richard Allen's bug shot. So that was the morning of Sunday, October 13th. And looking at that mugshot, he does appear to be thinner, but he appears to be stupider in better health. Yeah, he appears to be stronger. He's got a very close buzz cut and he's clean shaved in the. Clean shaven in the picture there.

[Guest]

Well, I think he looks like a psychotic turtle.

[Nick]

Well, his eyes don't look too deep into those eyes because, you know, they, they always say that that's where you see it is in the eyes. And that's where I'm starting to see it with Richard Allen and what it is. Let's not go down that road here today. If you want to know what it is, we got like 700 shows. You will find it in many of those shows. Shortly before 9am on Monday, the defendant, Richard Allen walks into the courtroom and he's described as wearing a light purple button down shirt and khak pants. So this is of note because this is the first time that he's seen in a public court appearance not wearing a prison outfit, the orange prison jumpsuit. So he's not, he's not shackled.

[Guest]

Right.

[Nick]

He's not cuffed like we've seen him in other snippets and he's not in that prison getup. So keep in mind for those, there are a lot of, there's a lot of good reporting going on thus far about what the trial and leading up to the jury selection on Monday. But those clips that you are seeing in the background as the news anchor or reporter are talking, those news clips are from previous courtroom appearances. So the ones that you seeing being led into the courtroom or being escorted to the courthouse in shackles or in chains and in the prison get up surrounded by police. That's. Those are old, that's old news footage.

[Guest]

Yeah. To me in that in the purple shirt, he kind of looks like a psychotic Donatello from the Ninja Turtles. But one of the things that people always point out when they see Richard Allen in person is his stature. He is, he is a very small individual. Some of the reporters are saying he's listed at, you know, 5, 5, 5, 6. But he, he even seems smaller than that. And 4. Yeah, and, but, but you have to remember when they had the wanted posters for bridge guy, they're putting in the height and I think this is something we've talked about extensively is the height was. Well, we think maybe he's 5, 6 to 5, 10. So we, we know we're looking for a smaller individual. Now. That doesn't mean it's a slam dunk. Anybody closer to five, six is, you know, is a great suspect, but that just puts things in perspective.

[Nick]

It's a shame too, because that's one thing that we really honed in on quite a bit when we, prior to the arrest when we were still looking for the person believed to be responsible. Looking for the person who's responsible. I say believe because let's keep in mind he is simply accused at this point. He's not been proven to be guilty. But with those railroad ties and the way that that bridge is set up, you know, just the general structure of those old railroad bridges in general, we thought they should be able to come up with a good idea of his height based off of the video. I mean, you know, the distance between those planks and you can see him walking on those planks. The problem then becomes you gotta factor in the trajectory of the video, the angle of the video being taken. And I don't know, I'm not here to criticize the investigation or maybe you Hindsight's always 20 20, but I think they could have got a little closer to, than to maybe what they did, a 4 or 5 inch difference there on their thought now. Yeah, I agree regarding those opening statements. So some, some, here's some insight into the, the courtroom and, and, and what took place over the past two days. So in the state's opening statement, they told potential jurors that Richard Allen is bridge guy. Using those exact words, Richard Allen is bridge guy. And this came from Carol County Prosecutor Nick McLean. He said Bridge Guy brutally murdered the two, meaning the girls, then casually walked back to his car and went home. But he left a clue the prosecution said was a bullet found at the crime scene. At the murder scene, the state said it would prove that Richard Allen is bridge guy and that jurors would hear how he allegedly confessed to the murders multiple times and why. In the defense's opening statements, they said Allen confessed to shooting the girls in the back. And of course we know they were not shot. They said Allen confessed to a crime he didn't commit and that these are the ingredients for false confessions. The defense described the evidence as soft.

[Guest]

And one of the things that has been reported in the news a lot is that the defense is going with a false confession defense. The major points here are that Richard Allen has confessed to this crime over 60 times. But the defense is also Saying, well, yeah, he confessed to this crime, but some of his details are not accurate. My argument there was depending on which, which time he confessed. You know, are there sometimes that there's details that the killer would only know is sometimes like you said, is he making a confession where he's giving information that he knows is incorrect? They also claim that he has confessed to committing crimes that haven't took place. Like he said, he, he killed his whole family, he killed his grandchildren. And we know that obviously those are false. And then they also in one of their opening statements said that they found some hair in Abby's hand that was not Richard Allen's.

[Nick]

Yeah. So this is weird because it's been argued in hearings leading up to this trial whether these confessions would be allowed to be in and part of the trial. And you're exactly right, Captain. It's weird because when, when those hearings were taking place, we were hearing by from persons that were testifying and giving statements at those hearings for the state that were saying, yeah, he confessed, it wasn't under duress. I, in fact I told him I didn't want to hear anymore. And there he's not being, he's not confessing to a detective that's grilling him. He's just, he's being involved in other conversations and all of a sudden starting down a, starting to deliver a confession to someone. And.

[Guest]

Right.

[Nick]

And those hearings, mind you, we weren't privy to everything that took place during those hearings, but the outcome was generally stated as he wasn't saying anything that didn't go along with what took place, with what we, with some of the known facts of the case or some of even the facts of the case that only the state and the defense know. And so this is very different what we're hearing now. And really, truly this is only like weeks later after they were the, the judge said the confessions are in because they are evidence. Yeah, they're, yeah. But, but keep in mind, judge says their evidence, that doesn't necessarily, that's not necessarily a one way street. It could be evidence for the prosecution, it could be evidence for the defense. And I think what we're going to see now once the trial hits is that they're probably going to parse these out a little bit and they're going to pick at them and they're going to say, okay, well this is what he got right in this one, this is what he got wrong in this one. But this is the first that it seems like that we are hearing that some of these confessions were Completely wrong. And then the mindset of the person giving the confessions, the thing that was often argued in those prior hearings was he's on the phone with his wife. So he's not under duress in that moment. He's not confessing because someone's grilling him. In fact, she's on the phone saying, like, I think I, you know, I don't think we should be talking. I think you should talk to your attorneys. And he's confessing to people unnecessarily. And so these confessions are going to be very interesting once we get to the trial process. Now, for those who have not been able to follow every minute of this situation, what we have here is a situation where they will not be allowing cameras or recorders or even audio recording devices into the courtroom. So we are going to rely on good old fashioned reporting. We're going to have the reporters that can make it in there will be sitting in a courtroom with pen and paper and jotting down and taking notes as this process continues and as the trial gets underway. During the selection process, Rick Allen was seen, you know, so he's sitting there with his defense team. He's seen interacting with them throughout the whole jury selection process and taking an active role. He's discussing things with his defense team, as one would expect, even to the point of pointing out jurors or sorry, potential jurors that he wanted to either be seated, to be a part of the, to be selected for this trial or to be removed from the jury. And at times he could be seen laughing and even smiling when he's discussing things with his legal team. Now, captain, you are the captain, so I'll let you steer the ship here. Do you want to hear maybe the most strange or the most interesting courtroom moment or moments thus far? This is from what took place on Monday and Tuesday.

[Guest]

Well, let me decide that right after this quick beer break.

[Nick]

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[Captain]

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[Guest]

All right, we are back. Cheers, mates. I think. Let's, let's start with the most interesting.

[Nick]

Okay. For the most interesting thing that I found to have taken place was it's pretty simple, but I was shocked at the numbers here. Captain, was the state listed that they plan to call 55 witnesses during the course of the trial?

[Guest]

That seems like a lot.

[Nick]

55 is a lot. I would have expected a high number, you know, probably 40, I guess, is more of what I was expecting. So I wasn't completely blown away when I heard 55. But then the defense has to do the same thing. They have to list how many witnesses they plan to call. They plan to call 120 witnesses. I guess I assumed. And look, I don't know much about, you know, not an attorney, obviously, and I don't know if it's. If it's typical that the defense calls more than the prosecution, but in this case, 55 for the state, 120 witnesses planned to be called. We should note that planned to be called for the defense.

[Guest]

Well, all the news reports that I saw, like we said, they're going to be moving the jury to Carroll county on Friday. Well, I think they move them on Thursday, but they start the trial on Friday. That's going to be the opening statement. So we're on the way, right? This is happening. We've waited this long. It's D day. But a lot of these news reports said, okay, well, because this jury is being sequestered, which is not as normal as one would think, they're going to be put up in a hotel. They're going to have all their devices taken away from them. So they can't listen to True Crime Garage to get all their updates. But the news reports are saying that this trial probably will take about a month, roughly. Well, the problem with that is when you say 50 some witnesses by the prosecution and 100 and some by the defense, how are you going to get through that in a month? So maybe it's just this is our list, but that doesn't mean we'll call every individual.

[Nick]

Well, exactly. They have to present a list because here's why the other side gets an opportunity to argue, okay, well, that person can't be allowed to testify or the state can't call that person, and here's why. Or, judge, you had previously said this in some of our hearings, and this person falls into one of those categories of something we're not supposed to present at trial. So any of these people can be eliminated. They have to provide this list. It's standard procedure. The other thing too, let's keep in mind. So Judge G announced to the jurors that the trial is expected to last until November 15th. So, you know, I don't have a calendar right in front of me here, so I don't know if we have any holidays along the way. I wouldn't expect there to be any holidays. I mean, Halloween, I'm sure they're still going to have court on Halloween, but that's Basically, you're getting 21 days, I believe. I don't think there's a Saturday session for these courts. So if it's Monday through Friday, you're getting 21 days to jam in all of this information and all these witness. Potential witnesses that could be called to that. Now, November 15, isn't it doesn't mean like, oh, shows over no matter what if we don't get through this trial on November 15th. I mean, we saw the Amber Reed trial trial went weeks longer than expected. So this thing could potentially go days or even weeks longer than what they're expecting. This is just simply a courtesy. And actually this is something that the courts should provide, and they do provide. The judge is the expert here. And so this is a courtesy that they're providing to these people because these people have lives and they work. And they may need to be telling their employers, like, look, state says I have to serve on this jury and live in this hotel and I'm going to be stuck there till judge says November 15th. Because I'm sure these people's families and employer employers want to know how long are you going to be missing an action for? And so this gives them some kind of framework there on that regard. Now, from my understanding here, captain, for this trial, each juror will be given a stipend of $80 a day for the first five days and then $90 a day for each day after that. Well, what you left me with, though, was the interesting takeaways from I'm sorry, we went through. You asked for the most interesting. We have the most strange moments from Monday and Tuesday. So this is the first one is Judge Gaul dismissed a potential juror who claimed to be a psychic.

[Guest]

I don't have a crystal ball, but I have a crystal ball brain.

[Nick]

So one person there in the courtroom claiming to be a psychic was quickly dismissed by the judge. The statement given. So there was some interaction with this psychic person. I don't know if this was interaction with the judge, the defense or, or the prosecution it doesn't really matter at this point because the person's been dismissed. But the person said, I'm, I'm a psychic, and my presence will only help the prosecution. So that obviously, that's going to be a quick smell you later to that.

[Guest]

Person, then see you later, loser.

[Nick]

Then we have. This is the moment that I found to be. To be very weird. And again, it's just because you're. It's being described to us. There's no, there's no camera at this proceeding. So maybe I'm just picturing this in a much more weird way in my own head than it actually was. But. But I think it's of note. At one point during the defense questioning, we get a member of the defense. His name is Andrew Baldwin. He's part of the defense team, Richard Allen's defense team. He goes and he stands behind Richard Allen, who's seated in the courtroom, and with. And he places both of his hands on the shoulders of Richard Allen, and he's Andrew Baldwin. The defense attorney's addressing the potential jurors, and he says, you guys, look at this man right here. Is it really possible that he might be innocent of these crime. Of these crimes? And as soon as he finishes the sentence, Rick Allen smiles at the jury. And the jury's just kind of like in shock and awe, right? And just kind of staring back psychotic.

[Guest]

Ninja Turtle and the states.

[Nick]

The prosecution jumps up. It's like, objection, your honor. So you're already seeing some kind of TV antics playing out.

[Guest]

The two things that I thought were the most interesting was when the. During one of the opening statements, when they say, well, we have hair found in Abby's hand that's not Richard Allen's, and there's no description of it. So this defense team loves to muck up the waters. And so is it one or two strands of hair? Whose hair is it? Is it a male's hair? Is it a female's hair? And then when you think about just, you know, they're at the park, is it her hair? Is it Libby's hair? Is it. Is it the sister's hair from when they were riding in the car? Because anybody that lives with women know, like, Dashboard Confession, told us, your hair is everywhere. And so I want to know, is it male hair or is it. Is it female hair? And then is it possible that it actually does match Richard Allen? But we just can't definitively say that because it is a hair fiber without the bulb on the hair. And then the other thing that they said, the Follicle. The other thing that they said too, was. And I don't know if this was in a opening statement or not, but they're saying that he was interrupted or during one of the confessions. He claims he was interrupted.

[Nick]

Let's get into that here in a minute. I definitely want to circle back to that, but to touch on the hair thing for a moment. Yeah, it's. It's an outdoor crime scene. We talked about this at length with before we had a person arrested before we had a name for a suspect. The complications of an outdoor crime scene. It's. It's always, you can't control the crime scene. And number one, and you can't. You can only protect it so much. There's. There's weather elements, there's wind, there's all kinds of debris, whether it be from Mother Nature or from humans. Look, there's no nice way of saying some of these things. They're lying there overnight and there until about noon or so. And we don't know. I'd have to go through our old episodes to know when they were removed. We do know, and I do list that in my book, once the bodies were removed. Removed from that area. But those hairs, if they're longer, I. I'm like kind of envisioning longer hairs that. That could have caught wind somehow and. And ended up catching on something and just in remaining there wouldn't be out of question. It wouldn't be totally unreasonable that that would happen. It could have come from if. And you're saying they don't have the follicle.

[Guest]

A lot of this information isn't super clear. And I think what the defense is trying imply without giving us actual evidence is I think they're trying to imply that Abby put up a fight and she has a clump of hair that she got from the actual killer and that Richard Allen is not the killer. I think that's what they're trying to imply.

[Nick]

Well, and you are exactly right there, Captain. Not with them in trying. With them trying to imply something. Because that, to me, is what this defense seems to do regularly and has done it consistently and constantly throughout this very lengthy process. Where, like you were saying earlier, it's. They kind of just toss something out there vaguely like, oh, here's this. Oh, here's. Let me just float out this little nondescript piece of information and see how everybody reacts to it. Not to be a total ass clown here and to make. To make light of this horrible situation, but this defense team, to me, when I think of this Defense team and their tactics and how they go about their business, trying to put up a fight for Richard Allen. Like, they float things out there and very quickly the stuff is dismissed, right? It's like, well, that was really nothing. It completely reminds me of when you have Ben Stiller's character in the Meet the Parents, Meet the Fockers movies. Remember that part in one of those movies where he's, he's standing in front of the mirror and he's pretending what he's going to say to Robert De Niro's character, right? He's like, hey, Jack, what do you think about this now? What do you think about that? All right, now what do you think about this? Oh, do you like that now? What do you think about this? Like, it is just like. And he does that like 30 times. And that's what I think about this defense team. And they're, they're trying to prove the innocence of their client. It's just like, oh, yeah, what do you think about this? And then we're like, yeah, that's no good. And then it's like, okay, well, what do you think about that?

[Guest]

What they have that we don't have is the evidence against their client. And so to me, I view this defense team as like, I'm a decent boxer, but I'm going up against a better boxer. So if I just box this individual, I have no chance of winning. But if I can make it a street fight and I can get them to not box me, but just fight me, then maybe I have a chance. And that's how I kind of view this defense team going to go.

[Nick]

Ben Stiller on that. Going to get all Ben Stiller on you. So details of the crimes revealed. That's what a lot of the people that have followed this case for so long will be intrigued by the potential of what details of the crimes and details of the investigation. Because all of this was very hush hush and a lot of holdback information for a long period of time here. So people want to know what, what will we learn at this trial? And you honed in on something perfect. This is one of the first snippets is, and I have a good rundown of it here. Let me read this to you. Abigail Williams and Liberty German decided to walk across the Monan High Bridge above Deer Creek. But they were not alone. This is coming from the state. McLeland says bridge guy used a gun to force them down the hill to do what he wanted. That's a quote. He said Allen was interrupted and forced the girls to cross the creek where he had them undressed before he killed them. He threw their clothes in Deer Creek and then he fled the area. This is interesting the way that this is worded, that Allen was interrupted and then forced the girls to cross the creek where he had them undressed before he killed them. He threw their clothes in Deer Creek. Okay, so that's the statement there. But what this, to me is suggestive of is that he had a different intention, like was his intention to take them from that area. Now, if you go back to the earlier part of that statement, maybe, maybe not. So that he wasn't. It was. He was attempting to take them to a different location nearby. Right. Like he was attempting to walk them one direction, was interrupted and decided, oh, I gotta maneuver and take them this other direction is the way that I'm kind of processing what. What McLeland is saying here.

[Guest]

Well, and one of the rumors was that one of his confessions, he claims that he saw a van pulling into a driveway, and that is what interrupted him. And. And again, that's just a rumor of the confession. But a lot of people believe that that is true because one of the neighbors would have been getting home from work roughly at that time and had some kind of service van. And so it kind of all lines.

[Nick]

Up details of the investigation potentially, because, remember what I was saying earlier about the defense team, but some details about the investigation potentially revealed here. The defense said that the local authorities refused the FBI's help with Libby's cell phone, which we all know, anybody that knows and follows this case knows is a really big part of this case and a big part of the investigation. Libby's cell phone was found at the murder scene. And the defense is saying that the police were ill equipped to process this phone, saying that the. It would have been better to have processed it by the FBI. To which they're saying local authorities refuse the FBI's help with Libby's cell phone found at the scene, which, I don't know, it seems very strange. We know the FBI had a very big hand in what took place in the investigation that followed. So I don't really know what to make of that statement. I'm not saying it's untrue for the jury. I was hoping to get a better breakdown than this. And maybe we'll get more clarification on this later today here. But when, through the process, the selection process, once they had selected 14 of the 16 needed at that time, we were looking at eight women and six men had been selected. And the evidence that the jurors said that they would expect to see during the course of this trial includes phone data, testimony from witnesses, evidence of a weapon being used, fingerprints, and an alibi.

[Guest]

Yeah, so my. My major takeaways from what we've learned so far is, I mean, I knew that he confessed. I. I didn't know that it was over 60 times. So I think that's going to be difficult for the defense, but also difficult for the prosecution to sift through those confessions. And look, he could have been advised by his attorneys to just start confessing to everybody because it'll be easier to try to throw out those confessions or to make, you know, well, he confessed 60 times, so of course he's going to get something right out of those 60 times. But then we also learned that he's confessed to murders that didn't take place. Then you have the hair found in Abby's hand. So that'll be interesting to learn more about that evidence, If. If it is evidence. And then when the prosecution stated that he was interrupted, I would like to know more details, obviously, about what that interruption was like. But he is charged with four counts of murder, two intentional and two felony counts of murder. And those are my big takeaway from what we've learned so far.

[Nick]

Yeah, the.

[Guest]

I.

[Nick]

From my understanding, two of those counts is for murder. Murder being the result in the process of trying to commit a kidnapping. The thing here is, with these confessions, true, false, or otherwise, somewhere in between, who knows? We should be. If. Whichever confession, maybe all of them, maybe just some of them, will be presented at trial, and we're going to get to hear the details. Maybe not word for word, but some of them were recorded, some of them were written. And so some of those, we should get word for word, and we will be able to. The jury, more importantly, will be able to hear that information and try to decide for themselves is this. Does this lead to this guy's falsely confessing over and over again, or he's truthfully confessing, or he's doing it, doing a little bit of both along the way. Because here's the thing, the defense could spin it some of these things and put a good spin on it and say, look, he's confessing to people that aren't even dead, that he killed people that aren't even dead? Well, yes and no. He could be saying, I killed my whole family. Guess what? He's been sitting in a cell, not seeing his family. He's probably wondering, if he's found guilty, will he have any family left. And maybe that's what he means by I killed my whole family. You know, it's hard to say without having, yeah, it's hard to say without having the details of those confessions. And so that's one thing that's going to be really interesting to piece through and kind of sort out there. My big takeaway was the amount of witnesses that they were going to be calling for both sides. Because what I was wondering, Captain, was like I'm going through the hearings and following the hearings that was leading up to this trial and the judge threw a lot of stuff out and a lot of that I agreed with. But I kind of sat there afterwards going, well, what's going to be left to talk about at the trial? And saying that it's going to be a five, six week process. I question, well, how long lengthy is this trial going to be when so much stuff has been tossed out? I was thinking we're probably looking after you get through jury selection, we're probably looking at a two week trial. But then we get told 50 witnesses, more than so 55 witnesses approximately for the state, 120 or so for the defense. This seems like it's shaking out to be what it was said to be a while back that we should expect a five week trial, 21 days or so, opening statements starting this Friday. I'll be intrigued to see if they take it for the entirety of the day. I would expect so. I wouldn't expect that you would just do opening statements for each side and rest for the day. I don't think that that would be the right way to handle it. But again, I'm not in charge. This is not my show, of course, but we will keep an eye on it and I know everybody else out there is keeping an eye on it. And regardless, this is getting us closer to something that we started that unfortunately had to start so long ago. And I do want to remind everybody during this process, especially during this process, this is going to be very difficult for a lot of families the next couple of weeks. The next several weeks are going to be very difficult for a lot of families. And so let's everybody please keep that in mind. Act accordingly if you wish. Say a prayer, give strength to these people. They've been through a lot is the understatement of the year. And they're going to be going through a lot unfortunately, again in the next several weeks.

[Guest]

Want to thank everybody for joining us here in the garage for this Delphi Murders update. If you need more true crime garage for your earballs Check us out on Patreon or Apple podcast subscriptions. Until next week. Be good, be kind, and don't litter.

[Captain]

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