Delphi Murders Trial /// Part 2 /// 801

Summary

True Crime Garage Episode Summary: Delphi Murders Trial — Part 2 (Episode 801)

Release Date: November 12, 2024
Hosts: Nic Edwards and The Captain
Episode: Delphi Murders Trial /// Part 2 /// 801

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Introduction

In this gripping episode of True Crime Garage, hosts Nic Edwards and The Captain delve deep into the second part of the Delphi Murders Trial. The episode examines the intricate details of the case, the evidence presented, the defense's strategies, and the overarching questions surrounding the guilt of Richard Allen, the accused.

Case Overview

The Delphi Murders involve the tragic disappearance and subsequent discovery of the bodies of 13-year-old Abby Williams and 14-year-old Libby German in February 2017 near Delphi, Indiana. Richard Allen, aged 52, faces charges for these heinous crimes but has pleaded not guilty. The trial's complexity stems from the nature of the evidence, the confessions obtained from Allen, and the defense's counterarguments.

Prosecution's Evidence

The prosecution has built its case on several pillars:

• Confessions: Richard Allen has provided multiple confessions, some of which include detailed knowledge that ostensibly only the perpetrator would know. "Their main message was that Mr. Allen confessed and included facts that would only have been known to someone at the scene." – [02:01] John Tompkins, Defense Lawyer.

• Ballistic Evidence: Two independent ballistics experts from the ISP Lab in Indiana concluded that the bullet found at the crime scene matched Richard Allen's Sig Sauer firearm. "Two experts independently concluded that the bullet came from Allen's gun." – [36:32] Nick Edwards.

• Video and Audio Evidence: Grainy footage and audio recordings purportedly place Allen at the scene, including a video of the "bridge guy," whom the prosecution asserts is Allen.

Defense's Arguments

The defense, led by attorney John Tompkins, challenges the prosecution on multiple fronts:

• Lack of Physical Evidence: No fingerprints, DNA, or forensic evidence directly link Allen to the murder scene. "No fingerprints, DNA or forensic evidence links Allen to the murder scene." – [02:20] Ian Lee.

• Dual Perpetrator Theory: At various points, the defense has suggested the possibility of more than one individual being involved, arguing that the evidence does not conclusively prove a single perpetrator. "If at some point in that five and a half years, the investigators didn't consider that it was more than one person, I would say we have the wrong investigators on the case." – [12:53] Nic Edwards.

• Credibility of Confessions: The defense posits that confessions were obtained under potentially coercive conditions, influenced by Allen's interactions in prison. They argue that the prison psychologist, a true crime enthusiast, may have swayed his statements.

Confessions and Their Reliability

A significant point of contention revolves around the nature and authenticity of Allen's confessions:

• Influence of Prison Environment: "He was talking to Mr. Allen about things that she heard on podcasts and also Mr. Allen was provided copies of discovery which had some of those facts as well." – [02:20] John Tompkins.

• Consistency of Confessions: While the prosecution highlights multiple confessions aligning with key facts, the defense notes discrepancies and the possibility that some details were learned from external sources rather than firsthand knowledge.

Ballistic Evidence

Ballistic analysis plays a crucial role in the prosecution's case:

• Expert Testimony: Two independent ballistics experts affirmed that the bullet matched Allen's firearm. However, the defense presented their own expert who, without conducting independent tests, reviewed photographs and expressed doubt. "Had I conducted my own evaluation, I may have arrived at the same conclusion as the prosecution's experts." – [38:55] Nick Edwards.

• Defense's Challenge: The defense's expert did not perform independent tests, undermining the credibility of their counterargument.

Mental Health Considerations

Both hosts discuss the potential impact of Allen's mental health on his actions and the reliability of his confessions:

• "If you killed two children and didn't have a mental break, then you're a whole different kind of monster." – [34:35] Nic Edwards.

• The Captain raises concerns about Allen's mental state, medication, and whether his actions were a result of psychological issues or deliberate intent.

Jury's Decision and Potential Outcomes

The discussion underscores the weight of the jury's decision:

• Confessions as Key Evidence: The hosts suggest that the confessions, especially those given to family members, will heavily influence the jury. "If they believe what he's saying on those, and do, they're going to convict him." – [20:29] The Captain.

• Possibility of Acquittal: While the prosecution presents a robust case, the defense's challenges introduce doubt, potentially leading to a hung jury or acquittal.

Expert Opinions

The episode references external expert opinions, including FBI profiler Pat Brown, who believes the prosecution may not have sufficiently proven their case, increasing the likelihood of an acquittal. However, Nic Edwards counters by emphasizing the strength of the physical evidence presented.

Final Thoughts and Conclusions

Nic Edwards and The Captain express their skepticism toward the defense's strategies, citing a lack of substantial alternative evidence and criticizing the introduction of unfounded theories. They emphasize the importance of the physical evidence and confessions in establishing Allen's guilt. The hosts also acknowledge the emotional toll the trial has taken on all involved parties and the true crime community.

“The system is quite good and it is aimed at finding the true guilty person.” – [43:51] Nick Edwards.

The episode concludes with a reflection on the enduring impact of the Delphi Murders and the anticipation surrounding the trial's verdict, highlighting the complex interplay of evidence, defense strategies, and the quest for justice.

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Notable Quotes:

• "Confessions that the prosecution says Allen repeatedly made." – [01:55] Ian Lee.

• "This whole case is difficult and it's sad. And you, you would hope that there's more evidence." – [28:13] The Captain.

• "If he is convicted, it's going to be as simple as they heard those convictions and they believed him." – [30:55] The Captain.

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Conclusion

This episode of True Crime Garage offers an in-depth exploration of the Delphi Murders Trial Part 2, presenting a balanced view of the prosecution's evidence and the defense's rebuttals. Through meticulous analysis and engaging discussion, Nic Edwards and The Captain provide listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the case's complexities, the challenges in establishing guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, and the broader implications for the true crime community.

Transcript

[Nick Edwards]

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[The Captain]

13 year old Abby Williams and 14 year old Libby German disappeared in 2017 near their hometown of Delphi, Indiana. Their bodies were found the following day near a hiking trail. The accused killer, Richard Allen has pleaded not guilty. Ian Lee has the story.

[Ian Lee]

For a fourth day, an Indiana jury will work to decide the fate of Richard Allen. The 52 year old is accused of murdering 13 year old Abby Williams and 14 year old Libby German during an afternoon hike in February of 2017. A solid suspect eluded authorities for years despite multiple sketches and this grainy video recorded on one of the girls phones. John Tompkins is an Indianapolis defense lawyer who who has followed the case since the beginning.

[John Tompkins]

It's a huge task for this jury in deliberations because there are for instance, over 300 state exhibits.

[Ian Lee]

Among those exhibits, confessions that the prosecution says Allen repeatedly made.

[John Tompkins]

Their main message was that Mr. Allen confessed and included facts that would only have been known to someone at the scene. In some of those confessions, the defense.

[Ian Lee]

Challenged that argument by claiming the prison psychologist who Allen confessed to was a true crime fan herself.

[John Tompkins]

She was talking to Mr. Allen about things that she heard on podcasts and also Mr. Allen was provided copies of discovery which had some of those facts as well.

[Ian Lee]

Lawyers for Allen pointed out that no fingerprints, DNA or forensic evidence links Allen to the murder scene and that for more than five years after the teens were killed, he continued working at a nearby pharmacy. During closing arguments last Thursday, attorney Bradley Rosie told the jury he had every chance to run but did not because he didn't do it.

[John Tompkins]

The highlight from the prosecution's argument I think was trying to tie in the video and the identity of Mr. Allen and convince the jurors that the person that they see as the bridge guy is actually Mr. Allen. And they did that through similar clothing and other things.

[Ian Lee]

If found guilty, Allen faces 130 years in prison. For CBS Morning's Ian Lee Deli, Indiana.

[Nick Edwards]

The best that they can do in this case is to shrink it down to one person and that one Person, they're saying is Richard Allen. The prosecution saying he is bridge guy and bridge guy killed the girls. Which, going back to though, what I was saying about the. We've had all this time to look at this case and then we've had all this lead up and build up to the trial and now we've had several weeks of trial. And I know and I understand that murder's not supposed to make sense to us regular people. And I also understand that people do things that they didn't plan to do. But the murders themselves here in this situation, even after learning more, still make absolute zero sense to me. The narrative is that he went to the trail system. We, we regularly refer to this as a park because it's, it's very similar to a park like setting. So forgive us, we know it's not an actual park, but. So he goes to this area, to this park with the intention of sexually assaulting someone. Do I have that correct?

[The Captain]

I'm not sure. I think.

[Nick Edwards]

Well, that's what has been said, I believe.

[The Captain]

Yeah, I think what it is clear. Again, I can't confirm that he went to the park with that intention, but he, but I do know that he said when he saw the girls that he was like, well, they're between the ages of 11 and 18 and I'm going to rape them.

[Nick Edwards]

It fell into some range, age range that was sufficient to him and very.

[The Captain]

Strange and very sick.

[Nick Edwards]

Yes. Especially when we're talking about a guy that's a father probably. I don't know, man.

[The Captain]

It's a sick.

[Nick Edwards]

Well, yeah. Yes, but I think even more so. But anyway, let's try to move past that. But then the nar. As the narrative continues, it's that during the commission and operation of that he's interrupted or startled by a white van and then, and then decides to murder the girls and then goes back to his car, drives home and was just going to live out his normal life after that. Yeah, I, I don't understand why if it is Richard Allen, if it's somebody else, whatever. I don't understand how that, how that has to become murder. Wouldn't you, couldn't you just. Wouldn't you, couldn't you just flee? Like, I don't, I don't understand.

[The Captain]

Like, again, I think the. One of the problems is he has mental issues. And again, I, I don't know if he, if he was on medication or not, but I know that some of the medications that people are on, some of the medications they advise you not to drink on because you can go into states of psychosis or psychosis.

[Nick Edwards]

And, and, and to be clear here, neither the captain and I are doctors nor have we ever been confused for one. But from, from.

[The Captain]

Well, I have just because I played on. I was, I was in the original cast of ER for a while.

[Nick Edwards]

But, well, but, and just to be clear to you, probably shouldn't drink on any medication at all. You know, not just certain medications, but, but I mean, whoever did this took. Took a box cutter or sharp instrument and slice their throats.

[The Captain]

Yeah. Well, I mean, that's pretty good.

[Nick Edwards]

That's pretty, that's pretty brutal. That's pretty brutal. Just like. Well, I was startled in the commission of this other crime and then I did this as a result.

[The Captain]

Well, I think the, and I think this is what it's going to come down to. We know the who, Richard Allen. We know the where, we know the when, we know the how, but some of the how we don't know. So his confessions fill in those gaps and they do so in a manner that makes sense. And then he, then he's the one that tells us the why. And because when you have a victim that doesn't is naked, one victim is found naked and the other victim is clothed. And that doesn't make much sense until he explains to you the motive. And then when you go, well, how does it go from a sexual assault or a rape to murder? And then you go, well, he was interrupted by somebody that was a neighbor of this area, of this location coming home with their service vehicle. And then we can back that up by knowing that that neighbor came back to his house roughly around that time. Again, the defense is going to argue these minute details of minute by minute. What we said multiple times in cases is when you're looking at a timeline, you know, factor in that there's going to be some mistakes, whether that's a little 10 minutes earlier or 10 minutes later. Some people would say, well, that's a big deal because. But you don't have to prove the timeline within seconds of the murders. And so I know that this, this bomb dropping of information that they think is bomb, like a bomb going off in the courtroom of this headphone set that was the data of the cell phone shows that at some point the headphones were. And at some point the headphones were in port.

[Nick Edwards]

Well, that, that's going to be the claim, but really I think the science and the tech of it is that the, the headphone jack where the, where the headphones would be plugged into on the phone was Manipulated that, like, from my understanding, that's all they can say with 100% certainty. Not that actual headphones were put in or taken out, but the, the jack itself registered some type of action. Which implies. Which means that they were manipulated. Which could imply that, yes, headphones were either put in or taken out at that time. However, there is testimony that says, well, if the phone were to be encountered debris or get wet, then it could have the same reaction. And think about where the phone. They're outside in the. In the woods and they probably were forced across the creek or they're, you know, they're found lying down in the. In the woods. So it seems very reasonable that the, the headphone jack registered some type of manipulation. It's very reasonable to believe that the phone got wet, condensation or dirt or debris on it at some point.

[The Captain]

And I can't speak to other cell phones, but I've had Apple cell phones for years. And where you plug in the headphones and where you plug in the charger is the same location on some of the phones. Some of them have been different. But I've had multiple situations where I had to get a new phone because that input jack is faulty. And so if I put my phone on the charger at night, maybe it would charge for 30 minutes and then stop charging. And then later on that night it started charging again. That's not evidence of a person messing with the jack. That's not evidence of a spiritual entity or demonic entity in my room doing this. That could just be evidence of a faulty jack. And like you said, the jack could be faulty because it got debris or water in it. So, and then, then this idea and people. I'm just going to disagree with people. I think the evidence on the phone, the video evidence, the audio evidence, all the evidence shows us this was committed by one person. They would have to have some kind of weapon to control these two individuals. We have evidence that there was a. At least. At least two weapons, a gun, because we have a bullet. That bullet come from somewhere. And then we have obvious.

[Nick Edwards]

Sometimes.

[The Captain]

Yeah. And. And then he tells us during the confession that it was a box cutter and that he disposed that behind the cvs, a box cutter.

[Nick Edwards]

That he was part of his work uniform, basically, that they open up so many packages and such that it is regular for a person in his position and a person who works at that CVS to keep a pocketed box cutter throughout the course of a work day. So much it's used, so much so that I believe that it's said that it's a part of their uniform.

[The Captain]

Oh, yeah. When I worked in a warehouse, I probably had two to three box cutters on me every day. And so I think the evidence points to that this is done by one person. So this idea that there's two people and then they tried to present this idea that maybe the girls were taken away and came back, but the cell phone data of their phones kind of disproves that theory. So to me.

[Nick Edwards]

Well, and I'm glad you're. I'm glad you're hitting on this here, Captain, because I think that too many people have tried to focus in on this point and then make it so that it means that Richard Allen is innocent. Because the defense has certainly tried when they have had law enforcement on the stand say, well, isn't it true that at one point in your investigation you were investigating the potential of multiple perpetrators, that it was carried out by two people? Is that true? And then the officer says, yes, well, duh, it's true. Because the, the investigation lasts five and a half years. If at some point in that five and a half years, the investigators didn't consider that it was more than one person, I would say we have the wrong investigators on the case. And what law enforcement is pointing out is the same thing that the captain is saying here. Just because we explored that possibility doesn't mean that it was two people. What they're saying is we have to follow the evidence. The evidence at the scene did not rule out the potential of two people, but it didn't. It also didn't present itself that it had to be two people or more. That's the problem with this defense. Right. Like, and I shouldn't say the problem. I. Overall, and we can get into this here in a little bit, I think they've done a fairly good job. They've not put on a good defense to the point where I think that we're going to get an acquittal or even a hung jury. I think where their shortcomings are is that they bring up these possibilities and they explore things like, well, maybe it wasn't his car, or maybe Richard Allen was the guy seen on the bridge, but bridge guy didn't kill the girls. They go down these weird.

[The Captain]

I think the video evidence and the audio evidence proves that whoever they were filming on the bridge, that guy is the one that confronted them again, like we said.

[Nick Edwards]

And the down the hills, the seal seals the deal. It's the perpetrator moving them to where they're eventually found.

[The Captain]

Yeah. And we also have to realize that there was evidence at the crime scene that one of the victims, you know, without a shadow of a doubt was killed there. And, yes, her body was moved a little bit, but the blood evidence would show that she was killed and died at that scene. So that, again, other evidence that they weren't taken away.

[Nick Edwards]

And that's something they've said from the beginning. They weren't. They. They didn't say that outwardly the first week or month or so, but eventually, once that came out, early in the investigation, they stuck to that, they being law enforcement. So where we talk about the crime scene and possibility of more than one perpetrator or what have you, they've never said at any point that we have anything at the crime scene, physical evidence telling us that the victims were moved. And yes, I know the captain just said one victim was moved, but we're talking about feet moved just a very short space, not taken elsewhere. Not any of these fantastical thoughts and speculation that have certainly been plentiful leading up to the arrest and even after.

[The Captain]

Yeah, I mean, this is very difficult, and I understand the concern of the public to go, did we get the right guy? Let's just talk about the confessions for a little bit. Their defense is basically, well, he was tortured. And I have a. I have a problem with that statement because I. I think I was telling you, what, a week or so ago, I was watching this thing where these pedophiles were put in prison, and some of them didn't make it to trial because they were murdered the first night that they were in prison. So when you have victims that are just kids, you go, well, they tortured him by putting them in solitary confinement. Well, did they torture him or did they protect him? And that also could be both at the same time, as far as that could be a sense of torture for somebody that has mental instabilities.

[Nick Edwards]

An expert for the defense says that any form of solitary confinement on a long enough timeline is a form of torture. However, he's not saying specifically to Richard Allen's situation. He's saying for anyone, anywhere. But then the problem becomes, something you and I spoke about and both agree upon, is the. The job of that corrections facility is to make sure that this individual is alive and well and can stand, has his right and gets his day in court. And like, you're, like you're saying if. If you throw them in with. With. With. With individuals that want to get after this guy, Richard Allen may not have his day in court. And then the other thing you got to say as well, regardless of what this may have done to him, deteriorating him mentally and emotionally or whatever. Like, Mr. Mr. Allen, would you like to be in with the rest of these guys, or would you like to be kept by yourself? I would think that if he's in his right state of mind, he's going to say, maybe not 10 for 10, but nine out of 10, put me by myself, please.

[The Captain]

Yeah. And so we get this conundrum where we go, well, he confessed to the crime and confessed to it multiple times. And one of the things I keep seeing online that I think is a little silly is this idea that, well, Richard Allen would have got discovery. Well, I believe some of the confessions were before the time frame that prosecution had to give up all the evidence over to the defense team. So you can make an argument that some of these details he would not have known of, but the interruption of the neighbor, that was not in any evidence. And do people really think that he's sitting in his cell, in his solitary confinement cell and going over case files? The defense team is privy to that information. And we don't know exactly what they told their client and when they told their client that. And I think that is going to be the crux of this whole case. We have confessions, multiple confessions. And I think it's important that the prosecution said, well, he told the. He told the prison guard this, and he told the. His psychiatrist in prison this. I think that's.

[Nick Edwards]

And to be fair, not all the confessions exactly line up with each other.

[The Captain]

Right. And that. I also think that's a misnomer, that this idea that the killer knows every detail and can paint the exact picture to tell us everything that happened. But, and his. I think the most important confessions are going to be the ones to his wife and to his mother. And what I've said to many people when they say, are you following this case? Did they get the right guy? I have to say that I don't know because I'm not in that room. But I guarantee you, I could have a way better grasp of this if I got to hear his demeanor and hear what he told his wife and his mother. I think those are the most important confessions. And I think, okay, so what do we need? What do we know? We know that the jury heard those. And so I think if they come back and they convict him, it's going to be as simple as they heard those convictions and they believed him.

[Nick Edwards]

They believe his confessions. They believe that he was the man seen in the video on the bridge and then the Bullet evidence as well. And the thing here is, with these confessions, I really think of this defense as a bit of a wet fart. Okay. And hear me out. Here's why. Right. Like, unfortunately, you know, maybe we'll get some kind of Tums or Imodium, some kind of sponsor out of this. But I can. I think that any person of a certain age can say that they've experienced a wet fart at some point in their lifetime.

[The Captain]

Yeah.

[Nick Edwards]

Now, unfortunately, nobody wants to have a wet fart situation, but it does happen. And now sometimes when that happens. What. What happens? Well, two things happen immediately. You have. You get. You get a bit of relief if you're having some stomach pain, but then you have a whole nother problem on your hands. Right. So the reason why I think this defense is a bit of a wet fart is that when they. When they are. Are questioning the things that make Richard Allen guilty, their client guilty, when they call that into question and they bring testimony from other individuals that might cast some doubt on it, they're taking the jury down a road. They never really fully get there, but they also don't go out of their way to explain why. And I think that's. That's where they've messed up, like, with this whole car business of having a couple people on the stand that say, the car that I saw doesn't match a Ford Focus, Richard Allen's car, or any Ford Focus for that matter. But they don't. Yes, they're casting doubt. That's obviously clear. But, but what they're not telling the jury is they need to take it a step further and go, look, we're not trying to say that our client wasn't at the trails. We're trying to say that he wasn't there long enough.

[The Captain]

Yeah.

[Nick Edwards]

To carry this out. And that's where I think that they're kind of dropping the ball. They do that with, with, with. With some of the. You know, he's. He's terrified of conflict, therefore, he's not capable of creating his own conflict by assaulting or raping or killing some people. But they. They don't go and take that extra step to explain that very well to the jury. Now, here's where I do think that they've done their job. The defense, in my opinion, at the end of the day, their number one guilty, innocent or otherwise. Their number one job is to have their client's best interest at all times, to be working in the best interest of their client at all times.

[The Captain]

Right.

[Nick Edwards]

Where I do think that they May have. And this would be some very behind the scenes stuff here and they'll never be any way of proving it. Maybe if one of them writes a book that will know if this is true or not. Maybe I'm completely wrong. I'm regularly wrong people regularly wrong. But where I think, because I've had so many people go, nick, he told 40, 50, 60 different people that he did this. Why doesn't he just plead guilty and spare everybody the heartache? And my initial reaction was, well, he doesn't want to embarrass his family. He doesn't want to admit it to his family. No, the captain's already pointed out some of these confessions are to 2 of the people he arguably loves the most, his wife and his mother. And so if he's already confessed to them, he has nobody left to save face with. But then I say, like Eddie Murphy and what was it in Coming to America? Aha. Aha. I say the aha moment is the person that he's probably being instructed to save face with is his defense team. I hope. Well, I shouldn't say that I hope because I don't really care. But I believe that they told Richard Allen, stop confessing. One, it's bad for your trial, and two, don't plead guilty. Because guess what? If you do end up being in prison for this for the rest of your days. Now, everybody in that building who may want to harm you, they know for sure that you did it. At least leave some doubt on the table so maybe somebody doesn't stick a shiv in you at any point. With big wireless providers, what you see is never what you get. Somewhere between the store and your first month's bill, the price magically skyrockets. With Mint Mobile, you'll never have to worry about GOTAs again. When Mint Mobile says $15 a month, when you purchase a three month plan, they mean it. Not to name names, but I have had mobile providers in the past that have a less than reliable service that I have paid much more than Mint Mobile. Like you, I was tired of complicated bills that included new fees and upcharges that made absolutely no sense. Mint Mobile is straight up great, reliable service at a great and fair price. All Mint Mobile plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. You can use your own phone, your own phone number and all of your existing contacts. Ditch overpriced wireless with Mint Mobile's deal and get three months of premium wireless service for 15 bucks a month to get this new customer offer and your new three month premium wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month. Go to mintmobile.com tcg that's mint mobile.com tcg cut your wireless bill to 15 bucks a month at mint mobile.com tcg $45 upfront payment required, equivalent to $15 per month. New customers on first three month plan only. Speed slower above 40 gigabytes on unlimited plan. Additional taxes, fees and restrictions apply. Cement Mobile for details.

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[The Captain]

I don't know, it's just, it's, it's very, it's. This whole case is difficult and it's sad. And you, you would hope that there's more evidence. You'd hope that there was DNA evidence, you'd hope that there's fingerprints. And I think the problem with the true crime community now is we need to have not just one smoking gun, we need two or three of them because the pendulum always shifts. Oh, Richard Allen was arrested and everybody's like, this guy's, you know, a bag of salty dicks. And, and now they're going, well, you know, he was tortured in prison. No, he wasn't tortured. He was protected from individuals aside for safekeeping. And like I was telling you, I watched that special on what happens to pedophiles in prison. And there's this one pedophile that they've decided not to kill. The whole prison, decided, we're not going to kill the guy. But they have stabbed him in the eyes with pencils, and they've. And, and the amount of times that he's had to go back to trial for, like, appeals or, or for whatever reason he's going into prison where he has scars on his neck and his head, and, and they just decided, we're not going to kill the guy, we're going to just keep torturing him. And that's what Richard Allen is probably afraid of if he committed these crimes. Now, here's the tough thing. And look, I. If I'm stating this wrong based off the video I saw, then I apologize.

[Nick Edwards]

But like I said, it's going on your permanent record. Yeah, I'm keeping track of these things. Well, I've been wrong more than you have, so carry on.

[The Captain]

This Pat Brown, this FBI profiler, I think she has some interesting points, but I think she believes that the prosecution didn't prove their point enough. Again, she's not in that courtroom, so I don't think she would be surprised if he is acquitted.

[Nick Edwards]

Well, and I respect Pat Brown's opinion, and I'm thankful that you're presenting it here, but what I was saying earlier is, is, is their presentation lacking? Yes. Is. Does it leave something to be desired? Yes, it does. However, I think that they are going and presenting this the best that they can based off of the physical evidence that they have. Yeah, that. That's just. That's my kind of rebuttal to Ms. Brown's opinion. Yeah.

[The Captain]

And I think the thing again, is it's going to come down to those confessions that they heard, not the hearsay confessions. Right. Because you got to take all those with a pinch of salt. But I, But I do believe that, you know, if these confessions just happen, just the confessions happening, I do believe is true. I don't. I don't know. Were these people able to get to a notepad and write down every detail and then the sign confession that looks like a kindergarten artwork mess. But we have tape confessions to his wife, multiple tape confessions to his wife and his mother. I think it's going to come down to that. Do they believe what he's saying on those? And if they do, they're going to convict him. And if they don't, then. Then he's gonna walk. And then that opens up a whole other can of worms and it opens up a lot of wounds and throws alcohol and all those wounds.

[Nick Edwards]

One thing too. We down the hill. That's a lot of people. When they went to this trial, the ones that were able to get in, they were seeing Richard Allen in person for the very first time.

[The Captain]

Right.

[Nick Edwards]

What everybody really wanted was that. Oh, you get that tingle in your ear balls. You want to hear his voice. You want to hear his voice. Does it match? Does it sound like Bridge Guy's voice in that. In that now infamous audio? And the general takeaway that I've heard time and time again is they played two sessions of videotaped questioning of Richard Allen by law enforcement, by detectives. And the most people thought that there was a considerable difference in audio quality between the two. But the one that seemed to be of the highest and best audio quality, he sounds like Bridge Guy on that version, on that tape of the questions, especially when. When he becomes angry and confrontational with. With the detective asking the questions.

[The Captain]

Yeah. I also think the thing that is going to be interesting is, and this is just my opinion, so take that for what it is. But one of my issues with my mental health was the doctors, whether they were too quick to prescribe something. I remember going and getting prescribed antipsychotics. Now think about that. I'm. I go to my doctors, I tell them I'm not doing so well. I just basically am telling them what I think I have. Now, I'm not a doctor. And the doctor says, here, take these drugs antipsychotics. And then I go to a therapist for the first time. And the therapist says, are you on any medication? And I said, well, they just prescribed me X, Y and Z. And the therapist said to me, oh, I don't know if you should be on those, but. But you know, it's tricky getting on and off medication. So I, you know these doctors that say Richard Allen is clearly not faking it and he clearly had a mental break. Well, faking a mental break and having a mental break can look very similar. And then there's also. If you killed two children and didn't.

[Nick Edwards]

Have a mental break, then you're a whole different kind of monster.

[The Captain]

Yeah. And. And again, are you faking a mental break or you. Are you leaning into it? And again, I don't know what his alcohol consumption was, so I don't know what physical withdrawals he was having from that. And, and again, I don't understand what medication he was on or wasn't on. But I think that's another decision that the jury is going to have to make. Is, is he going crazy because he did commit these crimes? Is he playing into this and those. That's evidence that we're just here. Everything we're hearing is hearsay. So, you know, when people have asked my opinion, I keep going back to, if I was in the room, I'd have a better answer for you. Yeah, but we're not in the room. And, but what's sad to me is to think that there's people out there saying, well, he might not be acquitted. And, you know, obviously, if he's innocent, you don't want, you don't want him to be found guilty again. It's hard for us to make that, that call because we're not privy to all the information. But if I'm on the jury, I'm going, okay, well, he was there. It's reasonable that he matches the height and the weight. He's on the bridge. Out of all the people that were in that location, there was only a handful of them on the bridge. He. The video quality is not great, but he looks like the video quality. We have eyewitnesses, we have the sketch. He looks like the sketch. He has a gun that matches. And we're not talking about a super common gun. And then we're also talking about the ammo. Not super common ammo either.

[Nick Edwards]

Not super rare, though, either.

[The Captain]

Right, right, right. But you're right, it's reasonable to believe that that was his gun. That's re. And then we have this expert saying, no, because of these markings, it definitely is his gun. And then we have all these people backing up that she's a credible witness.

[Nick Edwards]

Well, let's, let's go down that route because of the, the junk science statement by many people out there. And to be, to be clear, it. Those people seem to be in the minority, but. So junk science. But before the arrest of Richard Allen, it was two. It was two experts that work at the labs, ballistics experts at the ISP lab in Indiana that independently of one another, came to the same conclusion that the bullet found at the crime scene came from Richard Allen Sig Sauer. Two people independently of one another. Okay. Came to that conclusion. So now let's go to the trial. Well, if it is, in fact, such junk science. Well, one, why are we using it? Why have we been using it for decades? But then, two, the defense is going to put on their own ballistics expert to combat what the prosecution is saying, that the bullet came From. And so their expertise had a big old file, had a whole bunch of photographs, and reviewed all the photographs and reviewed all the information that was provided to him by the lab. And he gets on the stand and he says, well, it's my air quote, expert opinion that this, this cartridge did not come from Richard Allen's six hour. But when in cross examination, the prosecution then asked, well, did you conduct your own evaluation? Meaning did you actually get his gun and rack a few cartridges and bullets through it and conduct your own experiment, conduct your own evaluation of potential evidence to include or exclude this individual? He says, no, I did not. He simply looked at the photographs and came to a conclusion. And in fact, he slipped up while he was on the stand and he said, had I conducted my own evaluation, I may have arrived at the same conclusion as the prosecution's experts.

[The Captain]

Right. Which basically says, I agree with her, so good luck.

[Nick Edwards]

Good luck.

[The Captain]

So. So again, so then you go, if you're the jury, okay, so it's, it's reasonable that this is ammo from his gun. So. And then he tells you what the motive is. And that makes sense with what we see at the crime scene. So that makes sense in the time period in which he was there. And then again, he's. But he's also telling us the why. Because they were between this age and this age.

[Nick Edwards]

I was going to assault them.

[The Captain]

Yeah. And then I didn't. Because this individual came home and then they go, did that individual come home at that time? Yes, he did. And now the people that go, well, he was privy to discovery, that was not in discovery. That was. Nobody could have known that. But the person that was there, unless Richard Allen had a relationship with this person and knew their work schedule or was stalking this individual, he would have no way of knowing what this person's typical work schedule was or that the fact that he had a service van, because I believe that was part of his. His job. So we, we put him at the crime location, but we can also put him at the crime scene because the crime scene starts at the top of the bridge. So there's all these scenes, and then you have to go, is it reasonable to believe that he's telling us the truth during some of the confessions? Sure. Is it reasonable to believe that he's lying in some of the confessions? Is it reasonable to believe that he doesn't know some of the information and that's why it's wrong? And some of these, there's. And this happens in all these cases. But. And I understand why the prosecution did it. But some of these, you know, quote unquote confessions where he, they're searching his house and he says that there's no point because this is all over. Well, look, if he was innocent, he could think that his life was over because he's being accused of a double homicide of children. So I don't put a lot of weight into those because I don't believe those are confessions. And like we were talking about before, you know, we don't, we don't know all the details. We don't have a line by line description of the confessions. When he said stuff like why I killed my whole family, well, maybe that's just dead to. That his family's dead to him because he committed these crimes or because he's going to be locked up in prison if he committed these crimes. And, and I sound like a broken record, but I think it's just going to keep. It's going to come back to, they heard the words from the man. And I, I hate when people go, well, these conditions can make somebody think that they did it. And that's why he keeps on saying, well, I think I did, but it's like, again. And then what's going to happen is if he is convicted, I think what will happen is those tapes, I mean, all this information will eventually get out. Eventually. And there'll be somebody like the Murder Sheep podcast that goes through and does what they did with like the West Memphis three case files and then put them all up online. We'll be too busy covering other cases to do that. But I think people will then hear those confessions to his wife and to his mother, and they'll be able to make a determination then whether they think those are believable or not. But it's sad because we've been covering this case for so long and to know some of the family members. And I think these, I think these, the, the defense team is. I think they're douches because first of all, they went down this path of Odinism, which, okay, you can go down that path because maybe there was some evidence of law enforcement going down that path. But some of the individuals that they put out on record as thinking that they were involved, some of those individuals were at work on surveillance cameras for the whole time period of the murders of the girls. And the fact that they never got off that, I mean, they still were trying to bring that into some kind of argument into this trial, even though they were denied it before and then.

[Nick Edwards]

They were after, it was already determined that they could not present that at trial. And then you have some people, the Richard Allen truthers or whatever they want to call themselves that are saying, well, not quite fair that they're not able to present the Odinism bullshit. This was, this was conducted over a three or four day hearing that took place in the summer. This was something that they, that they went to court and had court proceedings for and had an opportunity to present their case. And guess what? It didn't hold any water. That ship sunk right away. And fortunately, and I'm very happy about this, look this, our system is not perfect. I'm not, nobody here is arguing that, but it's, I believe, and I'm just one person. And as I've pointed out twice already in this episode, I've been, I've been wrong before. But I believe that the system is quite good and it is aimed at finding the true guilty person. And thankfully, you cannot just walk into a courtroom and present a third party defense where you just go, oh, you know what? Nick Edwards, we think he, what about him? He could have done it. Oh, the captain, what about him? He, he could have done it. What about, what about their friends from Generation Y? They could have done it. You can't just legally walk in there and just start throwing names around the room. You have to have some evidence. Just like they did when they had evidence that led to the arrest and the eventual charges against Richard Allen. They, you didn't have. Wouldn't we all be throwing tomatoes if Indiana State Police came out before an arrest was made and held a presser that says, well, what about this guy? What about that guy? What about this guy? What about that guy? What about this guy? You can't do that. And you especially can't do it in a courtroom. And that, like the captain's pointing out, and he did it much more eloquently than I am. There was nothing, there was nothing against these people. And look, I do not fault the defense for trying. That's certainly their job. But it didn't work. And so nobody can say and be right that they never had an opportunity to present this third party defense or the Odinism idea. Because they did. They absolutely did. In a court of law.

[The Captain]

Yeah. And I think again, it goes back to what I was saying before we got a win. Where, who, how and why? And so when you go, well, we think you got the who wrong. Okay, well, the people that we think did it, you got to put them at that location. And once you can't put them at that location, you have to move on from that idea, if they're not at the location, they can't commit the murders. And I've looked up some of these individuals that they had in their court filings and they're some weirdos, you know, no doubt about it. They're. They're into.

[Nick Edwards]

I'm sure they think that two guys that do a true crime podcast out of their garage are fairly weird as well.

[The Captain]

What does the morbid girls call their listeners? Weirdos.

[Nick Edwards]

That's why it's so easy for us to identify weirdos. We know what to look for.

[The Captain]

You gotta like those morbid ladies. I like the fact that they call everybody weirdos because hey, we're all a little weird for maybe.

[Nick Edwards]

And some of us in a good way.

[The Captain]

Yeah, I might be weird in a bad way, but so that's what it all comes down to. And it, and it sucks because like I said, we've gotten to know the families and we got to know a lot of people. That's great English, right? Gotten gotten to know. That's my Ohio in I'm. I'm Ohio boy coming out. But it's sad that I can't. That we're not going into closing arguments where I feel like they definitively prove their point and that we're going to walk away with a conviction. I feel saddened by that. But like I said back to the defense team being when they go, well we got these hair hairs that were in one of the victims hands and. And they almost imply that it's like this like pile of hair. Like it's so much hair that the victim had to rip it out of the killer's head. And that's just not true. And it's also like what I said, it's like the Dashboard confession song. If you've lived with any woman ever, their hair is everywhere. And so it's reasonable to go, well she was dropped off at the park by her sister. And there. It's very possible that that hair is of her sister's.

[Nick Edwards]

The one victim was wearing the sister's sweatshirt.

[The Captain]

Right. Which would also probably have hair on it. It's. And I think those kind of moves are douchey and it. And I think these guys are. I don't think they were prepared well. And I think that's why their defense.

[Nick Edwards]

They had more than ample time to be prepared, which is surprising as well.

[The Captain]

And in the defense of the defense, when your client is confessing to the crime over and over, that's a difficult thing. And I know that people point to other cases where somebody confessed multiple times. And so they go. And that's what we kind of do on this show and other podcasts and YouTube channels, is we're comparing this case, just like we said earlier, there's several cases where the killer presents themselves to law enforcement, whether to get information or try to stay ahead of the investigation. So that's not unreasonable. But I think, but I think it's going to, like I said, broken record here. Chalk this up to my file of podcast number 5 million Captain becomes a broken record when we hear those tapes. And I think one day we'll hear those tapes. I think we're all going to have a better idea of if we believe that he committed these crimes or not.

[Nick Edwards]

Once again, I know everyone's eagerly anticipating the outcome of this trial with so many eyes and so many hearts watching and observing this case from both near and afar. We are recording this today before the closing arguments. We are recording this just after the defense rest. And we, like the rest of you, are eagerly awaiting the verdict in this trial.

[The Captain]

I want to thank everybody for joining us here in the garage. Thanks for telling your mother. Thanks for telling your brother. And if you need more True Crime Garage for your ear balls, and you know you do, you can sign up for our bonus content on Patreon or Apple Podcast subscription. Colonel, do we have any recommended reading for the beautiful listeners?

[Nick Edwards]

We do absolutely here, Captain. But just to expand on something the Captain was talking about. Off the Record has been gangbusters lately. It always is. But it's it's been gangbusters lately. We featured some really great guests and some really interesting stories and true crime stories recently. So make sure you check that out. Again, it's Apple subscription and Patreon is where you can find our other show, off the Record, this week's recommended reading. This will be the last and final batch of autographed books, the Delphi Murders, the Quest to Find the Man on the Bridge by yours truly. That's available on our store page at True Crime Garage. I know we talked a lot about the trial today and what the verdict may be, but this will take you through everything that you need to know leading up to the trial and shortly after the arrest of Richard Allen and really the investigation and looking for Bridge guy and who the suspect truly was. Also, you'll learn a little bit about the Captain and myself in the book in True Crime Garage as well. So go to our store page that's available along with wonderful shirts and other swag from your garage friends here. And it's also listed on our recommended page with many other wonderful recommendations.

[The Captain]

And until next week, be good, be kind, and don't litter.