John O’Keefe /// Part 1 /// 762

Summary

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True Crime Garage – “John O’Keefe // Part 1 // 762”

Release Date: May 28, 2024
Hosts: Nic & The Captain
Main Theme:
This episode dives into the mysterious death of Boston police officer John O’Keefe in Canton, Massachusetts (January 2022), exploring the circumstances of his death, the ongoing trial of his girlfriend Karen Reed (accused of murder), and the wave of public fascination and controversy surrounding the case. Part 1 focuses on the relationships, timeline, suspicious details, conflicting testimonies, and the complexity of the investigation.

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Overview of the Episode

Nic and The Captain introduce the case as one of the most perplexing and talked-about current true crime stories, noting the wide public interest due to both the victim and the accused. They emphasize the “she said/they said” nature of the case, and promise a research-driven, balanced exploration.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Who Was John O’Keefe? (03:46 – 05:10)

• 46-year-old Boston police officer, guardian of his niece and nephew after his sister and brother-in-law’s deaths.
• Described by friends and family as selfless and beloved.
• “Salt of the earth. He was the best guy ever.” – Tiffany Logan (04:38)

Notable Moment:
Community outpouring at O’Keefe’s memorial; his legacy of care and tragedy of his loss.

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2. Circumstances of O’Keefe’s Death & Charges Against Karen Reed (05:31 – 09:05)

• O’Keefe was found dead outside another officer’s home during a snowstorm.
• Karen Reed, his girlfriend, was arrested and charged with second degree murder, manslaughter, and leaving the scene.
• Prosecutors allege vehicle homicide; defense claims frame-up and cover-up by other officers.
• Ongoing debate: Was this an accident, murder, or a conspiracy?

Quote:
“It was an outcry, a public uproar as some would say. They demanded—you demanded it and so we are delivering it.” – Nick on public pressure to cover the case (09:05)

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3. Theories and Contesting Narratives (09:05 – 13:40)

• Prosecution’s Case: Reed struck O’Keefe with her SUV after dropping him off, then left.
• Defense’s Case: O’Keefe was attacked at a party inside a fellow officer’s home, tossed outside, and left to die; Reed is being framed.
• Popular speculation includes cover-up, accident, and framing.
• Both sides do not advance the “accident” explanation in court; prosecution claims murder, defense claims conspiracy/coverup.

Quote:
“She is devastated. She is innocent. And that will come out at trial.” – David Janetti, defense attorney (12:07)

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4. Criticism of the Investigation (15:03 – 16:21)

• Captain and Nick express frustration with investigative procedures, citing a lack of thoroughness especially given O’Keefe’s status as an officer.
• “I’ll just say up front, I think this investigation was shitty and it’s actually really pathetic...” – Captain (15:03)

Insight:
A “lackluster” investigation contributed to the complexity and suspicions swirling around the case.

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5. The Fatal Night: Timeline & Relationship Tensions (17:13 – 24:25)

• January 28, 2022: O’Keefe and Reed socialize at two Canton bars with friends, then are invited to an afterparty at another officer’s home.
• Relationship history: “strained” at the time; trips, jealousy, speculation of impending breakup—fuel for possible motives on both sides.
• Conflicting accounts from friends about whether John and Karen were affectionate or arguing that night.

Quote:
“It seems to be... they had some trouble... they took a trip to Aruba... and John was falsely accused by Karen Reed on that trip.” – Nick (20:22)

Memorable Line:
“Don’t do it—just because it didn’t work out before, it makes about as much sense as taking a shower and putting back on dirty underwear.” – Captain on rekindled relationships (22:23)

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6. Arrival at Fairview Road & The Afterparty (24:25 – 39:07)

• Reed drove O’Keefe to the party at officer Brian Albert’s home on Fairview Rd.
• Debate: Did Reed drop O’Keefe off because of an argument or illness? Did O’Keefe ever enter the house? Competing statements from witnesses and reliance on cell phone data.
• Alcohol consumption noted; speculation that both Reed and O’Keefe were intoxicated, affecting memory and perceptions.

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7. Cell Phone Data and Surveillance Footage (39:07 – 41:31)

• Key evidence: O’Keefe’s phone seemingly records climbing three flights of stairs after drop-off, supporting defense’s claim he entered the house.
• Disagreement exists over how reliable these movements are, and possible confounding factors (terrain, phone errors).

Quote:
“I think this is going to change the way a lot of people try to prosecute cases and how they try to defend cases because, based off the data on O’Keefe’s phone... after the time Karen dropped him off, his phone recorded him going up three different flights of steps.” – Captain (39:53)

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8. Karen Reed’s Morning Search & The Discovery of O’Keefe’s Body (41:31 – 54:14)

• Reed wakes, finds O’Keefe missing, begins worried calls/texts, and enlists Jennifer McCabe and Carrie Roberts to search.
• Reed reportedly distraught and possibly still intoxicated; conflicting accounts as to her recollections and statements that morning.
• “There's a lot of complicated things about drinking and managing one’s drinking.” – Nick (52:05)

Discovery:

• O’Keefe’s body found in the snow outside the house with facial injuries, lacerations, blackened eyes, arm abrasions, and a skull fracture.
• Medical examiner: Blunt force trauma to head, hypothermia contributing factor.

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9. Conflicting Statements, Memory Loss, and the “I Hit Him” Debate (50:19 – 57:25)

• Some witnesses say Reed stated “I hit him, I hit him,” others say she was questioning “Did I hit him?”
• Reed claims her comments were misconstrued, raising the possibility of alcohol-induced memory loss (“blackout”).
• First responders note that witnesses’ shock and grief commonly result in confused or unusual statements.

Quote:
“If she was sitting there yelling ‘I hit him, I hit him,’ then you lock her up right then and there. And they didn’t do that, so I think it’s pretty clear... she was asking the question.” – Captain (56:59)

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10. Physical Evidence: The Broken Taillight (49:01 – 50:06)

• Broken taillight found on Reed’s SUV; prosecution claims it’s from striking O’Keefe.
• Uncertainty about when and how taillight broke. Defense suggests alternate innocuous or possibly staged explanations.

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11. Toxicology & Legal Proceedings (59:11 – 73:11)

• Forensic toxicologist estimates Reed’s BAC at .13–.29 at the time of the incident (legal limit is .08).
• Charges initially manslaughter; later upgraded to second-degree murder after grand jury review. Debate as to whether this escalation was strategic.
• Defense’s frame-job theory: alleging partygoers (including host/officer Brian Albert) and law enforcement are part of a coverup.
• Reed’s media statement: “We know who did it. We know and we know who spearheaded this cover up... I tried to save his life... I was the only one trying to save his life.” (approx 72:30)

Quote:
“I don’t think I’ve ever seen sort of a more obvious and more troubling set of circumstances that suggest a conflict of interest or a series of conflicts of interest.” – Alan Jackson, defense attorney (May 24, 2023) (approx 72:00)

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• “Salt of the earth. He was the best guy ever...” – Tiffany Logan (04:38)
• “...no one is arguing in court that this was any kind of accident. No. The state of Massachusetts has charged Karen Reed with with second degree murder...” – Nick (09:41)
• “This investigation was shitty and it’s actually really pathetic.” – Captain (15:03)
• “If John o’Keefe made it into the house, there’s no debate that Karen dropped him off. The debate then becomes, did he make it into the house?” – Nick (39:07)
• “I’m a hypocrite. Idiot.” – Captain, after a beer toast post “don’t drink and drive” advice (35:44)
• “I hit him, I hit him, I hit him.” – Phrase at the heart of contentious witness testimony, debated throughout the trial (approx 55:00)
• Reed’s media statement: “We know who did it. We know and we know who spearheaded this cover up...I tried to save his life. At six in the morning I was covered in his blood. I was the only one trying to save his life.” (approx 72:30)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:46 – Community response to O’Keefe’s death
• 05:31 – Case overview and charges
• 15:03 – Hosts on the investigation’s failings
• 17:13 – Timeline of O’Keefe and Reed’s night out
• 20:22 – Relationship history & potential motive
• 39:07 – The “fork in the road”: did O’Keefe enter the house?
• 39:53 – Role of cell phone evidence
• 41:31 – The search for O’Keefe begins
• 54:14 – O’Keefe’s injuries and cause of death
• 56:59 – Debate on Reed’s “I hit him” comments
• 59:11 – BAC evidence & implications
• 64:48 – Legal process, charges increased
• 72:30 – Reed’s public comments & defense framing

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Tone & Style

In classic True Crime Garage fashion, the discussion is deeply researched, informal, candid, and peppered with personal insight and irreverent humor. The hosts frequently stress objectivity and skepticism, balancing legal process, hearsay, and personal histories of those involved.

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Conclusion & What’s Next

The episode closes acknowledging the polarizing, unresolved nature of the case and teasing further discussions and new evidence to come in Part 2.

“Polarizing case. So much more to get to—stick around till part two.”
– The Captain (73:11)

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For listeners new to the O’Keefe case, this episode lays out a detailed, multi-perspective foundation, setting the stage for deeper analysis in subsequent episodes.

Transcript

[Narrator/Announcer]

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[Nick (Host)]

Picture this. It's the end of a long week. You're unwinding in the tub, listening to your favorite true crime podcast and then chronic hives come back again in the middle of the episode. What a wet blanket looks like another spell of itchy, swollen, red or skin colored hives. If you have chronic spontaneous urticaria or csu, there may be a different treatment option. Worried about your chronic hives interrupting our next episode? Learn [e-mail] Garage. Welcome to True Crime Garage. Wherever you are, whatever you're doing, thanks for listening. I'm your host, Nick and with me, as always, is a man who, much like myself, would like to start the argument that Big Poppy is better than Bonds. Here is the Captain.

[Captain (Co-host)]

Yeah, hide your kids, hide your wife's, and hide your husbands too. It's good to be seen and good to see you. Thanks for listening. Thanks for telling a friend.

[Nick (Host)]

This week we are excited to be featuring Perception Is Spoon Fed by Vitamin C Brewing out of beautiful Plymouth, Massachusetts. Perception is Spoon Fed is Vitamin C's take on a coconut key lime pie with Graham Cracker crumbs ABV 4.7% garage grade three and a half bottle caps out of five. And let's give some thanks and praise to those great listeners that helped us to fill up the old garage fridge for this week's shows. First up, a shout out to Kelsey in Kelowna, British Columbia, Canada.

[Captain (Co-host)]

And a big we like your jib goes out to Melody and Riverside, California.

[Nick (Host)]

And last but certainly not least, we have a long distance cheers to Ren from Harlstone in sunny England. Everyone we just mentioned they went to truecrimegarage.com clicked on the pint glass and for that we thank you.

[Captain (Co-host)]

Yeah yum yum. Get you some BWR beer run. Say it with me. Say it loud and proud. If you need more True Crime Garage for your earballs, check us out on Patreon or on Apple subscription and colonel that's enough of the business.

[Nick (Host)]

All right everybody gather round. Grab a chair, grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime.

[Melissa Jones]

Hundreds of Boston police officers standing in solidarity as they made their way into St. Francis of Assisi Church in Braintree Sunday, All to show their respect for Boston police Officer John o', Keefe, who died last week.

[Tiffany Logan]

It's such a tragedy.

[Melissa Jones]

What can you do?

[Tiffany Logan]

This is probably one of the worst things I've ever heard happen.

[Melissa Jones]

Police say Officer o' Keefe was found dead during the blizzard last weekend in Canton. A few days later, his girlfriend was arrested and charged with manslaughter in connection to his death. Prosecutors believe she hit him with her SUV and drove off, but her attorney says she didn't know she struck him.

[Tiffany Logan]

It's just like literally the worst situation I could ever, ever think of.

[Melissa Jones]

Tiffany Logan went to high school and college with o'. Keefe. She was among hundreds who came out for his wig. Lining Washington street for hours.

[Tiffany Logan]

Salt of the earth. He was the best guy ever. I went to high school, went to Northeastern for criminal justice. He became a cop. I became a lawyer.

[Melissa Jones]

Melissa Jones grew up next door to the o'. Keeffes.

[Narrator/Announcer]

The family has gone through a tremendous loss. He lost his sister, then his brother in law and the kids have been without parents and then they had Johnny as their guardian. And it's just, it's unfortunate, it's sad.

[Melissa Jones]

O' Keeffe was the guardian for his niece and nephew after his sister died from cancer. Now so, so many people are showing up to support this family, grieving once again.

[Tiffany Logan]

He is just literally the nicest guy and it was a terrible tragedy and I would love to know exactly what happened that night.

[Nick (Host)]

This is a case that has seemingly captivated hundreds of thousands of people. A case that has captured the attention of so many that it's often reported that if the Donald Trump trial was not going on at the same time that this would be the top news story on every news show, every news website and newspaper. This is the murder case, the vehicular homicide case regarding the yet to be explained Death of John O'. Keefe. John O' Keefe was a 46 year old man living in Canton, Massachusetts. John was killed in January of 2022. This very much a headline grabbing story and for many, many reasons. But I truly believe one of those reasons is because of the victim at the center of this she said, they said confusing story. John was a good man, a police officer and a man who adopted his niece and nephew after the passing of their parents. John was well liked and a man who should be Looked up to, respected and remembered fondly. Among the many reasons that this case has so many people talking is the person accused of killing John. The accused is his girlfriend, Karen Reed.

[Tiffany Logan]

Karen.

[Nick (Host)]

Karen is a successful woman. She had her own place. But to add some perspective to this relationship of John and Karen, Karen spent most nights at John's house. In fact, it's often reported that she lived there. John was born December 8, 1975. He grew up in Braintree, Massachusetts. He earned a master's degree in criminal justice from UMass Lowell and lived in Canton since 2014 was where he was raising his niece and nephew following his sister and brother in law's passing. O Keefe was a 16 year veteran of the Boston Police Department prior to his death. He was recently assigned to the Sex Offender registry unit with BPD. Karen A. Reed was in her early 40s at the time of John's death. She was born 1979. She graduated from Bentley University with a Bachelor of Science degree and a Master's of Science in Global Financial Analysis. She had been a financial analyst at Fidelity Investments and was an adjunct professor at Bentley University. The two had been dating since 2020. This incident leading to John's death occurred in 2022. Some reports do say that they had been dating since 2019. And as we said, they were practically living together at the time of John's death at John's house with the two youngsters. For those not following this case at the time of this recording, there is an ongoing trial which of course does make our telling of this true crime story difficult. So note that as details and testimony continues at this trial, there could be more information or even better information. But longtime listeners of the Garage know that we are well versed in covering unsolved and yet to be adjudicated cases.

[Captain (Co-host)]

Well, we had no choice in the matter. We had to cover this case. We were receiving dozens of emails every day saying when are you going to talk about the Karen Reed case?

[Nick (Host)]

It was an outcry, a public uproar as some would say. They demanded. You demanded it and so we are delivering it. Karen Reed is accused of running over John o' Keefe or at the very least hitting him with her car and causing his death. Now, please note that just a minute ago I said true crime case and true crime story. And yes, there is a trial that is ongoing. In fact, the court will be in session today. But to be perfectly clear, as far as the courts are concerned, not only did a crime take place, but several crimes took place with the worst of those being a homicide. Because as it stands today, no one is arguing in court that this was any kind of accident. No. The state of Massachusetts has charged Karen Reed with with second degree murder, motor vehicle manslaughter, and leaving the scene of a collision. Karen Reed and her defense team has alleged that she did not hit John o' Keefe with her car and that this was a frame job. She alleges that John o' Keefe attended a party at another police officer's home where John was attacked, beaten and tossed out in the freezing cold, and that several persons were either involved in causing his death or at the very least, were aware of what happened. And now the group has conspired against Karen to cover up what they did. This again, according to her defense team. To give a little bit of a background here, Captain, I want to read something that is taken from the Boston Globe. This is from February of 2022, so shortly after John's death, and portions of this article read, Karen Reed says her and two girlfriends found Reed's boyfriend, John o', Keefe, dead. He was face up and unconscious. According to the affidavit, Reed lay on top of him in an attempt to warm his body and administered cpr. The affidavit said John o' Keefe was pronounced dead hours later at Good Samaritan Hospital. John was a police officer with the Boston Police Department. Since it has been alleged that John's girlfriend, Karen Reed, ran over or at least struck John and she left him to die in the snow. O' Keefe's death was publicly mourned by Police Superintendent Chief Gregory Long. Long is also the department's acting commissioner, and he said, quote, john was a kind person dedicated to his family and will be greatly missed by his coworkers and anyone who had the privilege of meeting him. We are stunned and saddened and offer whatever support we can to John's family. A Boston officer who declined to provide his name in this news report said that o' Keefe and Reed had dated for the past couple of years the death of o' Keefe and the circumstances of how he died raises more questions than answers. The officer told the Globe, quote, he was the best person on the planet, he said of o'. Keefe. Reed's defense attorney, David Janetti, said his client was in shock and mourning. Quote, manslaughter is a tremendous reach in this case. I don't see any criminal intent. This was my client's boyfriend, somebody with whom she was in love. I am disappointed in the rush to judgment against my client. Yeti said, my client has no criminal intent. She loved this man. She is devastated. She is innocent. And that will come out at trial. Okay, and here we are at trial now, Captain?

[Captain (Co-host)]

Well, this case is very complicated because it's not just as simple as did Karen do this or did she not do this? Then you got to throw in, did something happen to him at the party? And then the other aspect of this case is, is it possible that there was an accident that nobody was involved in? And then on top of that, was there an accident where Karen hit John with the vehicle but didn't know that she did? So there's all these different angles here where normally it's like this person is either innocent or guilty. I think there's a lot of gray areas in this case, and that's, that's

[Nick (Host)]

exactly why I wanted to clear that up and point out true crime. Right. I know it's in the name, the title of our show, but for the purposes of telling this story, the captain and I did not go into the research of this case leaving out the possibility that this simply could be a vehicular accident. I think that is still on the table. But I'm pointing out to all of the listeners out there, especially the ones that are not following the day to day on this case, that as far as the trial goes, both, neither side is arguing an accident. The prosecution is saying Karen Reed is responsible for killing John. And Karen Reed and her defense team, they are saying not just that Karen Reed is not responsible, but that the people hosting this party, somebody there, is responsible for what happened to Jon. And I think that a lot of that has to be based off of the number of injuries inflicted on John prior to his passing. And that's, that's going to be just one of several key elements in this case that's going to raise a lot of questions for both arguments as far as I'm concerned.

[Captain (Co-host)]

And I'll just say up front, I think this investigation was shitty and it's actually really pathetic because you're investigating the death, possibly the murder of one of your own. And I just think they dropped the ball. You could argue conspiracy, sure. But I think there's no argument that these, that the investigators dropped the ball. And that's, that's very pathetic.

[Nick (Host)]

Let me highlight what you just said there because I agree with a lot of what you said. And look, we're not trying to turn this, we're not trying to turn this on the cops right out the gate.

[Captain (Co-host)]

I am.

[Nick (Host)]

It's more of what the captain said if there ever was a time to get it right, it's when you are investigating the death of one of your own right there. And so we highlight that because of several reasons. But one of them for me, Captain, is that this, I think even if the investigation was 100% spot on.

[Captain (Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Nick (Host)]

It's still a confusing case. And because I think and agree with you that there were some lackluster moments in said investigation that it has made it far more complicated than it started off to be.

[Captain (Co-host)]

When you're going to charge somebody with murder, that's serious charges. That has serious consequences to somebody. So maybe you should have a serious investigation and the victim deserves that.

[Nick (Host)]

Exactly. And so does the defendant and all of the persons involved here. Because while we lost John o' Keefe and we've already just tip of the iceberg talking about what kind of guy he was, stand up guy. But on top of that, when you are, when we're talking about second degree murder charges, the defendant could face up to life in prison. So there's a lot at stake here. And, and it's, it's double sad. Right. We've, we lost a really good guy, a good police officer.

[Tiffany Logan]

We.

[Nick (Host)]

But then on top of that to see that the, the investigation was not up to snuff. Now let's, we'll, we'll quit harping on that. Let's get into some of the information. Let's go through the timeline and description of the information that we have. The short description is that on January 29, 2022, off duty officer John O' Keefe was found dead outside a home that belonged to a police officer in Canton, Massachusetts. John was dropped off at the home by his girlfriend Karen Reed after a night of drinking. This was in the early hours of the morning to join a gathering hosted by fellow police officer Brian Albert. Then hours later, John's body was discovered in the yard by his girlfriend and two other women. He was transported to a local hospital where cause of death was listed as blunt force trauma and hypothermia. So let's start at the beginning of the evening. We are going to, we're going to go back to the night of January 28, 2022. This is a Friday. John O' Keefe and Karen Reed visited two bars in Canton, Massachusetts. These bars restaurants are CF McCarthy's and Waterfall Bar and Grill. We have boyfriend and girlfriend out on a Friday night having drinks and they are there drinking with friends. There are those who will say that the relationship was quite strained by this time that the couple that they were having some kind of trouble.

[Captain (Co-host)]

Right.

[Nick (Host)]

And some even saying that John was thinking about ending the relationship or was planning to end the relationship. Now this is going to be a key item and it's also, let's keep in mind here, while this is going to go toward motive in the case or a possible motive, this is also something that I think is left open to interpretation and is wildly speculated about. And I say that not just from the persons like us watching this with the bird's eye view from a thousand feet away.

[Captain (Co-host)]

Right.

[Nick (Host)]

But from those who knew the two individuals. So it seems to be, Captain, that they, they had some trouble or it's been reported and testified to in court so far that they took a trip to Aruba with a bunch of friends. And this would have been right around New Year's of 2022. John was, according to the testimony that I have heard. And, and that's where I'm going to kind of lean on a lot of this information because if you start to research this case, there's a lot of good networks and a lot of people focusing and covering this case.

[Captain (Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Nick (Host)]

A lot of it is their thoughts, opinions and even speculation that they are offering up as well. So when available, I'm going to try to rely on what was what somebody was willing to testify in court to what were the, what was somebody willing to put their hand on a Bible stand in front of a judge and a jury and a room full of people and say this is what I witnessed. Some of the testimony in this regard, Captain, was that John was falsely accused by Karen Reed on that Aruba trip. So they go with a group of people. This was a group trip, a bunch of friends. At least one of the friends testified to that he was falsely accused of kissing another friend that was along on the trip and that Karen Reed was upset with him, jealous, maybe even telling people that she had feared that John had cheated on her.

[Captain (Co-host)]

Right.

[Nick (Host)]

There's been other reports too that the couple that they were kind of, it was, it was a relationship from both ends.

[Captain (Co-host)]

Right.

[Nick (Host)]

Like it where you get, you have the moments of where they're lovey dovey and they look very much in love and very much together. And then there are other people that say no. They argued and they fought a lot. And we don't mean physical fights. There's nobody saying that, but that's the word that's being tossed about. There's other people that just say no. It's, it was your standard relationship. Not, not everybody gets along together all the time. I Think that there's a lot of debate here. Again, if you are in the camp or you want to try to drive home the idea that she may be guilty of something or. Well, with that comes the idea that this relationship might have been ending. Now, there are other people out there that say that if it were ending, their perception was that Karen agreed that they were not getting along and that maybe both of them mutually thought the best thing to do would be to part ways.

[Captain (Co-host)]

Well, we have to bring up the fact that they actually dated years and years before this. And I always tell people, don't do it just because it worked. You know, how it worked out before it. It makes as much sense as taking a shower and putting back on dirty underwear. But the people that think that Karen is innocent will say, well, we have surveillance footage of them at the bar. I've seen that footage. To me, they look lovey dovey.

[Nick (Host)]

Yeah.

[Captain (Co-host)]

But we don't know what took place from the time they left that bar to the time they arrived at the party. We don't know if a fight broke out. We don't know if this. Oh, well, you want to go to this party, but I don't want to. Hey, make sure you don't kiss anybody. Because we don't have to deal with that. Again, we don't know because we're not privy to that information. What happened between the bar and the

[Nick (Host)]

party that furthers the issue with some of this information. You actually get varying opinions from the persons hanging out with them that night. Right there. There are people in that group that night that were drinking and hanging out together that say, oh, they were lovey dovey. They look great together. They were a fantastic couple. And then there's at least one person that says that she had a conversation with Karen Reed. And Karen said something to the effect of well, if. Or. And here's. Here's a lot of problems with this case, Captain, is the subtlety of some of the words and the importance of a. Of one word in particular when people were describing these things. Right. So one person says that she had a conversation with Karen Reed, and Karen Reed expressed to her that if John and I break up, and let me phrase it two different ways because I've heard it two different ways. The other way is when John and I break up.

[Captain (Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Nick (Host)]

The second part of the sentence remains the same and both telling of this story. And the second part is Karen expressing to this person that she hopes the two of us can stay friends. So the person that she's having this conversation with is somebody that she met through John and became friends with. And she's, according to this person, said either if or when we break up, I hope that the two of us can still be friends. So that would be a very different opinion, I believe, from what others saying that, oh, they look to be lovey dovey. And let me throw this out there. Anybody that's been in long term relationships or even just multiple short term relationships, I think would agree with the statement. It's very easy for people that are not getting along to have the appearance of getting along or getting along and having a great time in the moment when there's a good time to be had. Right. If you're at a concert, if you're at a party, if you're out drinking with friends, you might look a little more together than you would when no one else is around. And that's what the Captain's pointing out.

[Captain (Co-host)]

Absolutely.

[Nick (Host)]

Let's continue on here. So John O' Keefe was at CF McCarthy's bar in Canton. He's drinking with some friends. When Karen Reed joined the group. The couple and the friends then decided to go to another bar. So from my understanding, Captain McCarthy's bar was the kind of place that maybe they closed down a little earlier than some of the businesses. They're pretty strict on closing time and it sounds like the group was still wanting to continue hanging out. And my understanding is that this Waterfall Bar and Grill was just across the street, like within walking distance. So they just kind of all kind of make their way over from one bar to the next. And then while they're at the Waterfall around midnight, and this is from the state police affidavit, they decided that they were going to head to an afterparty, if you will.

[Captain (Co-host)]

That's let's not stop the party. Let's keep going.

[Nick (Host)]

At the second bar, the two of them with the other friends. Now we have several acquaintances, including fellow police officer Brian Albert. Shortly after midnight or around midnight, Albert invited a group of people, the, the whole group, including the couple Karen Reed and John o', Keefe, back to his home located on Fairview Road in Canton. Karen Reed and John o' Keefe and friends, they're all invited to this after party at 34 Fairview Road. Karen Reed drives John O' Keefe to Fairview Road. Now there's been a lot of speculation, a lot of talk about how much people were drinking at these two bars. John, from everything I've seen is reported that he was drinking beer for the majority of the evening.

[Captain (Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Nick (Host)]

And that Karen was drinking a clear. Some. Some sources will say straight up say it's vodka. She was drinking vodka. They're basing this off of camera footage at the two establishments.

[Captain (Co-host)]

Yeah, and I also think the bar tab as well.

[Nick (Host)]

The bar tab. But on top of that, you I like. I prefer the reporting that says she's seen consuming several clear drinks. Clear liquid drinks. Right.

[Tiffany Logan]

Well.

[Captain (Co-host)]

And John leaves the bar carrying a cocktail glass and he's seen on. On video footage. Look, we, we're idiots that drink in the garage. But you should not be intoxicated and being on the roadway and that's not for your safety. It's for the other people's safety. You shouldn't have your bad decision disrupt somebody else's life and I think it's very irresponsible. And these again, boys in blue, not not giving a about the law.

[Nick (Host)]

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[Captain (Co-host)]

All right, cheers, mates.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Right.

[Captain (Co-host)]

Right after I tell everybody don't drink and drive, I'm. I'm sending cheers to everybody I know.

[Nick (Host)]

And usually I'll say something like tall cans in the air, but it doesn't seem very appropriate.

[Captain (Co-host)]

I am a hypocrite. Idiot.

[Nick (Host)]

Drink more Gatorade there. Make sure you hydrate.

[Captain (Co-host)]

Remember you had the purple. Purple drank the purple drink. Purple vodka with vodka. Purple Gatorade.

[Nick (Host)]

Yeah. Regular vodka with purple Gatorade. That's. That is a party drink of mine. Especially when it's hot. Late summer, you know, late night summer. That's. That's a good one.

[Captain (Co-host)]

No, and I understand people want to go from a bar back to a house and party. I think there's a way to do it responsibly. And they didn't. And I think this also is why we have conflicting stories. Whether there's a cover up or not, there's conflicting stories because people were intoxicated.

[Nick (Host)]

Yeah. Yes. That's going to add to it and you're going to have a differing of opinion and the opinions are certainly skewed by the consumption of alcohol. I've heard it reported that Karen Reed consumed three likely vodka drinks at the first bar. I've heard it reported that she consumed nine. Maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle. I don't know. I wasn't there that night. But most of the reporting will say that it's believed that she consumed too much to be driving that evening.

[Captain (Co-host)]

Right.

[Nick (Host)]

If she's driving and police officer John o' Keefe is not. My assumption would be. And I, I come from a law enforcement family. My assumption would be that John o' Keefe did not possess the ability to drive safely either. Or. Or at least enough that he let Karen drive.

[Captain (Co-host)]

Yeah, he thought if I get caught, I might lose my job. But that didn't stop him from having a traveler. I mean, he had a cocktail in his hand the whole time that they were driving to this party, but that's neither here nor there.

[Nick (Host)]

So he has a cocktail with him. They are driving out to this Fairview Road. I have seen some reporting where it says that it's uncertain if they were invited. Now, maybe that is part of the art. What could have been an argument, a closed door argument inside that vehicle on the way there. But everybody else is saying, no, they were invited. The couple was invited. They were asked if they want to come. In fact, we gave them directions. A lot of the reporting will say that. Again, much debate on this detail here, but saying that Karen Reed decided, I'm just going to drop John off at the party because she was having. Not feeling well or having stomach issues. The debate being that the two were arguing and she decided she didn't want to go anymore and he. He wanted to go.

[Tiffany Logan]

Right.

[Nick (Host)]

My understanding here, Captain, is John's house from this Fairview Road location would be about three miles.

[Captain (Co-host)]

So not that far away.

[Nick (Host)]

Yeah, it would be. It would be believed that John would have no trouble finding his way home after this gathering at this acquaintance's home. I hesitate to say the word friend.

[Captain (Co-host)]

Yeah, or it's not that far to pick him up in the morning, but either way, he's supposed to go to this party. We have a destination for our victim.

[Nick (Host)]

This is where we have the big fork in the road. Right. Because if John o' Keefe made it into the house, there's no debate that Karen dropped him off. The debate then becomes, did he make it into the house? Because if he made it into that home, she couldn't have been responsible for his death.

[Captain (Co-host)]

Well, with cell phone technology and with eyewitnesses at the. They did see Karen there to drop him off. There's debate on whether they saw John o'. Keefe. And there's also a lot of debate on if he made it into the house.

[Nick (Host)]

Yeah, the ones that say that Karen is not guilty say that John absolutely made it into the house. The persons that say that she is guilty say that John did not.

[Captain (Co-host)]

Do want to point something out though, what's so fascinating to me as far as the true Crime world spectrum. If you will think of a case that you first heard DNA, O.J. simpson trial, at least for me it was a big deal in that case. And then you look at that Adnan Syed case, what was a big deal on that case? Cell phone ping technology. This case is the case that we're going to hear so much about cell phone data information. I think this is going to change the way a lot of people try to prosecute cases and how they try to defend cases because based off the data on John O. Keith's phone, after the time Karen dropped him off, his phone recorded him going up three different flights of steps. Karen's data information says that she didn't do that. She drove home, went to sleep. That's what the cell phone data information tells us.

[Nick (Host)]

And some have, some have stated that it could be a. I don't. The glitch is not a right word. Not the right word. But some are saying that because it's a hilly area, this neighborhood is hilly, that it could have recorded him going up and down steps or a flight of stairs because of the way that the vehicle was traveling on the road to the house.

[Captain (Co-host)]

And also we don't know how a cell phone is going to react to blunt force trauma and the death of an individual.

[Nick (Host)]

And again, what is not in dispute is Karen dropped him off there that night. And like the captain said, there are people that spotted her vehicle there that was a black Lexus suv, fancy. So what's not in dispute is that she dropped him off. What is up for debate is did he make it into the house? Because as I just said had. If he did make it into the house, Karen cannot be responsible for what happened to John. Now a snowstorm hit Canton in the early morning of January 29th and that's going to be key here too. Karen Reed reported that when she woke up the next day she discovers John o' Keefe had not returned home. So I have in my notes here Captain, that around I don't know why I put a round because it's pretty precise. 4:53am Karen Reed, who spent most nights at John O' Keefe's Canton home called and text him and when he failed to respond, she became worried.

[Captain (Co-host)]

Yes, she, she also text him on the way back just you know, basically let me know how everything's going, you know because he, he was in Karen's account he was waiting at that door for a time period. So she wanted to make sure did you get into the house and when she was texting him during that time before she went to sleep, he wasn't responsive. She wakes up, he's not being responsive.

[Nick (Host)]

And there's other cell phone information that we can get into as we go or. Or maybe we'll save space for it. Designated spot for it here in the telling of the story. So after John does not respond to calls and text, what we do know happened is Karen Reed contacted someone who's listed as an acquaintance, Jennifer McCabe. And this is interesting to me because what I. One thing we've not seen yet at the trial, Captain, and this very likely will happen. I'm really curious how this is going to play out, but there's 100 witnesses that will be called at some point during this trial. Now, that doesn't mean people that were there that night, people that hung out with them that night, it could be. We're talking about the medical examiner will be called at some point. We'll have experts, paid experts for both sides of the table and so on. But one of the people that I believe will be called will be the niece, John's niece, because the way that it's reported is that Karen wakes up and she doesn't.

[Melissa Jones]

She.

[Nick (Host)]

She's simply an acquaintance of this Jennifer Macabre. And so she doesn't know how to get a hold of Jennifer. She asked her niece, who knows Jennifer's daughter, if she can get in contact with her mom.

[Captain (Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Nick (Host)]

And the way that the story goes or is being told is that Karen woke up on the couch at John's house, spoke with John's niece, and then was able to get in contact with Jennifer through John's niece. Jennifer agrees to join Karen with another woman. And this woman's name is Carrie Roberts. The three are going to go out and look for John. So the three women return to Fairview Road in Carrie Roberts vehicle, where they saw o' Keefe lying unresponsive in the snow. There are, as one would imagine, we got three women in a car together. And I. The way that I. It hits my ears, Captain, is it sounds like three different tellings of the same story. Right. Like it's three different versions. Slight. All kind of slightly different from one another. There are. There are some details that match up, some that do not.

[Captain (Co-host)]

Well, you're seeing a dead guy in the road. What. What do you expect? You're not going to get great eyewitness testimony here. Right. Because this is a tragic event. Whether they knew he was out there or not, this is a tragic event. There's a lot of moving pieces here. Again, I Just don't think you're going to get a solid story out of all three of them.

[Nick (Host)]

Okay, so let's go through a little bit of this one piece at a time. Karen Reed exits the vehicle. She, as we already said, she runs over to John, attempts to perform or does perform CPR on him. Jennifer calls 91 1. This is at approximately 6:04am and now we have Canton Police, Fire and EMS responding to the scene. A short time later, O' Keefe was transported to Good Samaritan Hospital where he was pronounced dead. A medical examiner later reported that o' Keefe had abrasions to his right arm, several lacerations to his face, two black eyes, a skull fracture which would, which would have contributed to brain bleeding. They determined that hypothermia was a contributing factor to Okeefes death. I want to say this. Yeah, there's been a lot of people reporting on this and I'm not going to single anybody out because as said,

[Captain (Co-host)]

this is a difficult story and sometimes we're stupid too.

[Nick (Host)]

But I've seen this reported a whole bunch of different ways. Right. Like we went through a fairly descriptive reporting of what the medical examiner said. There's been people that have given a very shortened version of that. There's been some reputable news outlets that report that he died from hypothermia, which not true. It looks to me, based off of the more detailed accounts that hypothermia was a contributing factor to o' Keefe's death.

[Captain (Co-host)]

Everything I've seen from the credible sources have been he died of blunt force trauma. And again, I guess I'm going to be talking shit. Get ready, put your boots on. Because when an officer is dead because of blunt force trauma outside a police officer's house, you better do a thorough investigation. You better cross your T's and dot your eyes.

[Nick (Host)]

The prosecution alleged that Karen Reed dropped off John, made a three point turn to reverse direction and in the process rammed into John o' Keefe or ran him over and then drove away. Defense and Karen Reed theorized that John o' Keefe was beaten inside, attacked and beaten inside the home and his body was then left outside. Yes, and he passes away. However, there are 11 witness statements that say Jon O' Keefe never entered the home. Let's discuss the scene a little bit here. At some point, and I'm, I'm choosing to use that phrase at some point because there's varying descriptions in telling of when this occurs. But at some point, a broken rear tail light is discovered on Karen Reed's black Lexus suv.

[Captain (Co-host)]

Right.

[Nick (Host)]

In some tellings, she discovered it and points it out to other people and other tellings, other persons discovered it. And again, the time frame on when this was discovered, we do know that it was broken. What we don't know, what we don't have, I don't have a clear understanding of. Because there's been too many different people, too many cooks in the kitchen, as they say. Captain, with an opinion on when this tail light was broken. Because the state is going to allege, the prosecution is going to allege that the tail light was broken when she hit John o'. Keefe. There are others that will say it was broken at another time, maybe another accident where she bumped a vehicle in John's driveway that had nothing to do with John's passing. And then there's others that say, no, maybe it was broken on purpose by somebody else to make it look like she hit John. Yeah, Karen hit John to be kind of the icing on the cake to seal the deal on that story, on that narrative.

[Captain (Co-host)]

Yeah, just real quick to me, cooks in the kitchen, to me, seems like a good time. I think we should use the phrase too many cowboys on a donkey or too many fat kids on a tricycle.

[Nick (Host)]

One of the persons that we talked about, Karen Roberts, told police, quote, she believed Karen was still intoxicated in the morning. This is when they're out searching for John, and said that Karen Reed had told her, quote, she did not remember last night. So that's going to be a very different version than Karen Reed saying, no, I. I saw John get out of the car and he walked up toward the house. This person saying Karen expressed to her, I don't remember last night.

[Captain (Co-host)]

Have you ever had a friend that has blackouts? Because I've never experienced one myself or that, that I guess I could remember, but I used to have a roommate that would go drinking and let's say we went to 10 bars. Well, he'd wake up the next day and go, hey, what did we do last night? Well, what point do you stop remembering? Well, I remember we went to this bar and then you have to tell the guy, we went to nine bars after that and the person was walking around having a good time was very smiley. There's no way, if you ask me, was he black, blackout drunk at that point, I would have said, absolutely not. He seemed like he was having a great time. So it is possible that maybe if she had nine big vodkas that she doesn't remember everything exactly the way she is remembering it.

[Nick (Host)]

That's, that's where I was going to go to that. If, if she did in fact consume nine vodka drinks at that first bar, then I, I would be of the belief that it's. It stands to reason that she may not remember portions of the night.

[Captain (Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Nick (Host)]

The other thing too, with drinking, there's a lot of complicated things about drinking and managing one's drinking. And, and I don't want to sound like an alcoholic managing one's drinking, but what I mean by that is, well,

[Captain (Co-host)]

you are what you are.

[Nick (Host)]

Look, I go out, I like to go out a lot. And I will tell you, and I know that many people back me up on this. The drinks are, are the strength of a drink varies depending on where you go. And some places they get there a little heavy handed and give you a big pour. And out of the other places they are tight with the purse straps and they, they want to charge you for an expensive drink but only put a little alcohol in that drink. So.

[Captain (Co-host)]

But it also depends on sometimes on the sex of the client. Oh, a pretty lady comes up and wants a drink. Well, we'll make a little, A little more boozy for her.

[Nick (Host)]

Well, body type too. It plays a big factor in it, but again, yeah. And Karen's very small from being a former bartender. Drinks are poured differently at different establishments. Seasoned veterans of drinking fail to recognize this. The drinks always hit you later. Right. You can consume them now. They're going to hit and affect you later.

[Captain (Co-host)]

They'll catch up to you.

[Nick (Host)]

She may have felt one way when she left the bar and felt a completely different way at some point during that drive over to the house. Let's further, let's go further along on some of Carrie Roberts statements. So again, from the affidavit, she says that Karen Reed allegedly told her, I wonder if he's dead. It's snowing. He got hit by a plow. Now mind you, she's saying this is while we were out. We, we're venturing out to look for him. We've not located him yet. And she's saying that Karen Reed is already talking about John potentially being dead or what could have happened to him. The three women drove to Fairview Road. This is like white out conditions. Yeah, this is a powerful snowstorm.

[Captain (Co-host)]

You can tell by the surveillance footage of John o' Keefe leaving the bar. You can't make out what the vehicles are because they're completely covered in snow. And the snow didn't stop once he got to that party.

[Nick (Host)]

At some point, the Three women spot John o' Keefe in the snow. Now, again, we have Jennifer, who will say it's her opinion today that she believes that Karen already knew where they would find John and that she believes Karen was directing them to Jon and that Karen spotted John before the other two women did and jumped out of the vehicle. Again, that's Jennifer's opinion of the story. John has cuts on his face and arms. When they find him. He's got blackened eyes. Some reports say the blackened eyes were swollen shut. There's blood stained snow. A broken cocktail glass was discovered near o' Keefe's body. With some persons alleging that at the scene, Karen Reed said, I hit him, I hit him, I hit him, I hit him. All right, this, this has been a big, big, big part of the trial. And to be perfectly clear from the testimony that has taken place so far, there are persons that say they did not hear her say that, and there are other persons that have varying accounts, descriptions of what she said, accounts of what she said. Some saying I hit him, some saying that she repeated it, she was hysterical. We do have some of the first responders saying that she has said some suicidal type statements, made suicidal type statements that they put her in. I believe it was, it's called a section 12. It varies depending on jurisdiction, but I believe that's what it's called in this location.

[Captain (Co-host)]

But other people said that she wasn't saying, I hit him, I hit him. She was asking it like a question, did I hit him, Did I hit him?

[Nick (Host)]

And yes, and that's what Karen is saying in her defense. She says that, yes, I said I hit him. But that's the sentence started with a, Did I hit him? Yeah, and if you could see my, my sentence on, on paper, it would have ended with a question mark. And that would make some sense if she, if she accidentally hit him or if she has no idea what happened to him. You were there on the scene with first responders who unfortunately have seen things like this before or are at least expected to get to the bottom of things. And it would not be out of question for someone who does not know what happened to go, did I hit him?

[Captain (Co-host)]

Because if she was sitting there yelling, I hit him, I hit him, then you lock her up right then and there. And they didn't do that. So I think it's pretty clear that she was saying or I think it was pretty clear that she's asking the question, did I hit him? Because if she's sitting there screaming, I hit him, I hit him, I Hit him. Why wouldn't they put her in handcuffs right then and there?

[Nick (Host)]

And, well, and I didn't put this in my notes. The what it's believed that she said as far as the suicidal remarks go, but I believe it was something like she says, well, I could just die or I should just die or something of that nature.

[Captain (Co-host)]

Now that's not suicidal thoughts.

[Nick (Host)]

Well, again, I don't know. I don't know that that's what is reported. I'm just, I'm going off a memory here. But let's point out here there have been many there, at least four first responders that. Not involved in this situation. Right. These are just people that are offering up their opinions, but at least four first responders that I have heard and two that I spoke to directly that said, look, if you find a loved one, if you're, if you're showing up at a scene and you find someone that you love and truly care about and they're. They've just, they're. They have died. Yeah, it's, it's not uncharacteristic of the person that found them to A, be in shock, B, be hysterical and see. Say things that they may or may not mean that you, you could lose touch with reality. And all of those first responders have said, in the two that I spoke to said the same thing. So I think, I think we got to treat this as gospel here, Captain. When, when that many people say the same thing, they also, they all said, if she said suicidal remarks or not, that is not an indicator of guilt or an indicator of innocence in their opinion, that they, they've lived through experiences like this. And unfortunately that just kind of comes with the territory.

[Captain (Co-host)]

Absolutely.

[Nick (Host)]

What we do know though, Captain, is Karen Reed was arrested and then released on $50,000 cash bail. The Fairview Avenue is a residential street lined with single family homes on sizable lots. The avenue is mostly quiet. The home where John was found is a large gray colonial set back from the roadway. And as we have already talked about a little bit, John's death came as Massachusetts was hit with a powerful nor', easter. A storm that dropped a reported 20 inches of snow in Canton and drove temperatures as low as 12 degrees. Police say they found a broken cocktail glass and pieces of a tail light at the scene. A forensic toxicologist estimated that Karen Reed's blood alcohol content BAC would have been around 0.13 to 0.29 around 12:45am so this. It's believed that, that if. If she did strike John with her vehicle Then it happened sometime around 1245, 1230, somewhere in that time frame. And that they're based, they're basing this off of information that they get on the 29th. Right. At a later time, she takes a test, a blood test. Based off of the results of that test later that day, they're saying, okay, well at the time of when this may have occurred, yeah. Her blood alcohol level would have been 0.13 to possibly as high as 0.29. So just to give a little bit of cross reference check, here in Massachusetts it is illegal to operate a motor vehicle with a blood alcohol content of 0.08 or greater.

[Captain (Co-host)]

So she's, she's wasted.

[Nick (Host)]

According to a Google search, which I don't like this because we've already kind of, we've already danced on this a lot. Alcohol affects different people differently and drinks can be prepared differently. But a quick Google search would tell us that Google believes that four standard drinks would put you at.08. Now what, what is not included in that statement would be how quickly one consume them or how long it took for one to consume them.

[Captain (Co-host)]

Well, like we said, she's a petite female. She, she isn't that tall and she isn't that big. She's, she's a tiny person. So that could affect her more so than somebody bigger. But you know, I'm a, I'm a cheap date. Get, get a couple on me. I'm feeling good.

[Nick (Host)]

Well, and we're talking about a night out. This is not a whole day of events, right? This is a night out. Now on January 31, an autopsy was completed on John. Prosecutors said that the medical examiner ruled the cause of death was blunt impact injuries to the head and hypothermia being a contributing factor to his death. They say that the medical examiner did not find, quote, any obvious signs of an altercation or a fight. What we should, we, we really need to hit this home because this is a case that, that I've heard so much talk and speculation about this autopsy, yet none of those people have seen the autopsy. It's been sealed. And while some people say that's the state's way of trying to cover this up or you know, that, that just fuels the COVID up talk or the conspiracy talk. But the reason why we have so much information about this autopsy, even though that it's been kept from the public, is it's been openly discussed in newspapers and news outlets. But on top of that, there's been some court hearings since January of 2022, leading up to the trial that we're at today. And there's been, there's been the defense team and the prosecution referencing this autopsy frequently at some of those court hearings, also showing pictures of, of injuries to John. This will lead us to February 2nd when Reed appears in a district court. This for the first time, she pleads not guilty. The charge in February of 2022 that she was facing, she pled not guilty to manslaughter, motor vehicle homicide and leaving the sign, leaving the scene of a motor vehicle collision causing a death. So note that when she goes back to court, this will be in June of the same year. We have a Norfolk county grand jury that indicts Karen Reed on charges of second degree murder, manslaughter while operating under the influence of alcohol and leaving the scene of a personal injury and death. So those charges are upped, right? From her pleading not guilty to manslaughter to now she's facing charges of second degree murder. And it sounds to me this case was made in front of the grand jury who then agreed that that was the more appropriate charge was second degree murder.

[Captain (Co-host)]

Question for you, do you find that strange? Because to me it seems like they were going to give her, look, slap on the wrist, right? She's going to do a little bit of time. She'll be on probation, plead guilty. But once she says, well I'm not going to plead guilty, then it's almost like they up the charges to make it more severe to try to get her to plead guilty. And then I think that goes to people that argue that there's some kind of conspiracy here because it seemed like they just wanted this case to go away. And when she wasn't going to cooperate with law enforcement and the prosecution that they, they try to make it go away by taking the charges and upping the charges.

[Nick (Host)]

Yeah. So that again, that's the, that's the problem with the, the telling of this story. We, we do not know obviously exactly what has happened, especially behind closed doors. And so this case is fueled by what persons believe as a collective. So you have persons out there that believe that she's innocent and this is conspiracy and some kind of COVID up, a frame job. And those persons that camp would tell you, well this is more proof, right? Everything's more proof that it's conspiracy or cover up for those that share that opinion. And they're stating here, look, manslaughter, vehicular manslaughter. As I understand it, I don't live in Massachusetts. I've been there several times. I Would love to go back, but I've never lived there. As I understand it, Captain carries a mandatory sentence of five years in prison. So at the least she's going to get five years in prison for a manslaughter charge. Plus, you know, you're going to get probation and probably lose your license for a very long time. Second degree murder carries a potential life sentence. I don't think it's mandatory potential life sentence. And we do know that the earliest, I believe, you can get probation or paroled after 15 years, one, five years. So that is. You're right. That's a big jump between the two charges. Now, the people that say that this is a frame job will say, look, what they were hoping is you charge her with something like manslaughter, mandatory five years. If she pleads guilty, maybe she works a deal and gets two or three years and she takes the fall and this all goes away and it's, John was killed. We cover it up and then she's not. This poor woman, her life is turned upside down. But. But she's not locked away and throw away the key situation. They'll say they up the charges because she didn't play along. She pled not guilty. She was going to. She was going to put up a fight and say, no, I didn't do this. The other thing here, too, it's really tough to dissect what happens at a grand jury hearing because they're very, they're very secretive. They're not allowed to discuss a lot of the details. A lot of times we're not even allowed to know who testified, who was involved in, in giving statements to the grand jury. So my question to a legal expert from the state, the great state of Massachusetts, would be, how does it work there? Is this a recommendation by the prosecution to the grand jury? Or can the grand jury say, oh, based off what we heard, we think you should up the charges? Because one part in this is that in the state of Massachusetts, second degree murder, as far as the definition goes, includes the statement gross negligence or gross recklessness. And don't quote me on that, it's one of the two. I don't have the information right in front of me. But what that means in its simplest form is to, to arrive at the idea of second degree murder may not mean that she intended to run him over and kill him. It may simply mean that she was behaving so dangerously, so recklessly for such a long period of time that she, she was conducting gross recklessness that it was dangerous for her. To drive. It was dangerous to everybody else that she was driving. And not only did she do this, but she did it over a period of time and it was excessive. That it was excessive. So you can look into this any way that you want, right? It could be suggestive that she was aware that she ran him over and chose to leave. It could also mean that she decided to run him over and then left. But it also could mean that this is an exaggerated, excessive recklessness that she was committing and it resulted in the death of somebody else. To the new charges. Captain, what we do know is she did plead not guilty as well. This is in a Norfolk Superior Court in Dedham. And she was ordered held on $100,000 bail. She made bail, she was released and been out since. That was in June of 2022. Karen Reed's defense claims that she was framed. This is from May 3rd of 2023. Defense attorneys Alan Jackson and David Yeti alleged that John o' Keefe was involved in a fight inside of Brian Albert's home. They claim John o' Keefe was beaten and his body was later dumped outside. Jackson and Janetti focused on wounds to o' Keefe's arms which they said showed he was attacked by Albert's dog during the fight. Then on May 24, 2023, during a pre trial hearing, Karen Reed's attorneys laid out what they alleged to be a cover up by law enforcement, saying, quote, certainly the Massachusetts State Police is involved. There are people that were in that house that are involved. This is coming from attorney Alan Jackson, quote, Brian Albert is involved, Jennifer McCabe is involved. The rest of the folks that were in that house. There is some level of involvement by every one of them. Every single one of them. We're not going to rest until we get to the bottom of exactly who's behind this cover up. Not only Karen Reed deserves this, John o' Keefe deserves this and has deserved this from moment one. And that's why they're not going to rest. The attorney Alan Jackson goes on to say, I don't think I've ever seen sort of a more obvious and more troubling set of circumstances that suggest a conflict of interest or a series of conflicts of interest. Alan Jackson is a high profile attorney from California. He became famous or well known because he represented Kevin Spacey, that at that trial Kevin Spacey was found not guilty. What he is alleging here in that statement that I just read is that the lead state police investigator on the o' Keefe case has close personal ties to a number of the people that were at that party where the fatal incident happened. Following a dramatic hearing, court hearing, Karen Reed spoke to reporters for the first time. Again, this is in 2023 where she says, quote, we know who did it. We know and we know who spearheaded this cover up. You all know she's standing on the courthouse steps and saying, quote, I tried to save his life. I tried to save his life. At six in the morning I was covered in his blood. I was the only one trying to save his life. End quote.

[Captain (Co-host)]

I want to thank everybody for joining us here in the garage. Polarizing case. So much more to get to stick around till part two.

[Nick (Host)]

Until then, be good, be kind and don't litter. USAA knows dynamic duos can save the day like superheroes and sidekicks or auto and home insurance. With USAA you can bundle your auto and home and save up to 10%. Tap the banner to learn more and get a'@usaa.com bundle restrictions.