John Wayne Gacy /// Part 2

Summary

True Crime Garage: John Wayne Gacy /// Part 2

Podcast: True Crime Garage
Hosts: Nic & the Captain
Date: October 21, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this second installment diving into the crimes of John Wayne Gacy, Nic and the Captain walk listeners through the abduction and murder of Robert Piest—a case that ultimately brought about Gacy’s downfall. The hosts recount the investigation, police missteps, and notorious search of Gacy’s home, leading to the shocking discovery of dozens of bodies. Discussions also explore Gacy’s alleged accomplices, psychological profile, media fallout, and court proceedings—all delivered with the Garage’s signature mix of deeply-researched narrative, gallows humor, and frank reflection on justice and evil.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Abduction of Robert Piest [07:00–19:50]

• Setup at Nissan’s Pharmacy (Des Plaines, IL):
  Gacy toured the pharmacy under pretense of a remodeling job, chatting up teenage employees, and offering $5/hour for work—almost double 15-year-old Robert Piest’s current wage.

  • "He’s saving up for a Jeep … and he’s making $2.85 an hour." —Nic [08:35]

• Gacy’s Manipulation of Rob Piest:
  After a job discussion outside, Gacy convinces Rob to come to his house "to fill out tax forms," using a beer and “magic” handcuff trick to disarm him and gain control.

  • "I've got a trick I want to show you, John." —Gacy (mimicked by Nic) [12:07]
  • "The trick is, you have to have the key." —Gacy (mimicked by Nic) [13:54]

• Murder and Aftermath:
  Gacy attacks and strangles Rob with a rope and wooden handle. He methodically cleans up, discards evidence, and establishes alibi by visiting the hospital.

• Family’s Immediate Response:
  The Piest family goes to police the same night—impressive for the era, as missing teens weren’t always taken seriously.

  • "I like that they went in there with the whole family...they're telling the officer, no, this kid is missing." —Nic [19:03]

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Police Investigation & Search of Gacy’s Home [19:50–29:42]

• Initial Contact and Gacy’s Lies:
  Police contact Gacy, who feigns ignorance and tries to be helpful but offers nothing concrete on Rob’s whereabouts.

• Background Check Revelation:
  Detectives, finally running a background check, are shocked to discover Gacy’s previous conviction for sodomy.

• Executing the Search Warrant:
  Police find damning evidence (handcuffs, a blood-stained rug, IDs, sex toys, a receipt from Nissan's Pharmacy, and more) but no bodies during the first search.

  • “A jewelry box containing two driver's licenses, neither Gacy’s…a receipt for a roll of film…” —Nic [24:47]
  • The receipt becomes a crucial lead after pharmacy cashier Kim Byers confirms it only could've been in Rob's parka if Rob, wearing it, was at Gacy's home. [25:39–27:00]

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Surveillance & Gacy’s Cat-and-Mouse Games with Police [30:17–37:01]

• 24-Hour Surveillance:
  Gacy is released but put under constant watch. He taunts his pursuers, sometimes helping officers when their car broke down, even inviting them to dinner.

  • “He cooks him a fish dinner...As they're eating...they're going, something stinks in here.” —Captain [37:14]

• Evidence and Frustration:
  Despite suspicious items and concrete links to Rob, police lack enough direct evidence for murder and are frustrated by Gacy’s brazen behavior.

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The Confessions and Discovery of the Mass Graves [39:16–47:08]

• Gacy’s Partial and Evolving Confessions:
  While in custody, Gacy admits to killing people—at first blaming self-defense, then hinting at dozens of victims, most buried under his house.

  • “For many years, I’ve been the judge, jury, and executioner of many.” —Gacy (to attorney) [39:41]
  • “He starts saying it’s probably more like 30 people.” —Nic [40:40]

• Police Excavation:
  Gacy’s confessions (“dig here”) help locate bodies. Ultimately, 27 bodies are removed from the crawl space, with four more in the river, totaling 32 before Robert Piest’s remains are discovered months later in the Illinois River.

  • “On the first day that police begin their digging, they find two bodies…as the days passed, the body count grew higher.” —Nic [43:18]
  • “The house was destroyed—basically reduced to rubble.” —Nic [44:43]

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The Trial, Accomplice Theories, and Psychological Analysis [47:08–63:33]

• Trial Proceedings:
  Gacy’s defense pleads insanity, citing abuse and multiple personality claims (the “Jack Hanley” alter ego).

  • “Their [defense] experts…found Gacy to be a paranoid schizophrenic with multiple personality disorder.” —Nic [48:38]
  • “Jack Hanley is another version of John Wayne Gacy.” —Nic [48:40]

• Prosecution's View:
  Prosecution emphasizes the difference between insane and abnormal, asserting Gacy was legally sane.

  • “The prosecution was trying to point out the clear difference…Gacy is not your normal dude, but he’s not legally insane.” —Nic [51:31]

• Witness Testimony:
  Survivors and family recount Gacy’s predatory tactics, mood swings, and sexual advances. Emotional testimony includes Jeff Rignall breaking down on the stand.

• Gacy Found Guilty:
  Jury deliberates only two hours—Gacy is convicted of 33 murders and sentenced to death.

• Accomplice Theories Explored:
  Both media investigation and Gacy himself (in later years) suggest possible involvement by others. Evidence discussed includes timelines, alternate methods of death, and survivor accounts of others’ presence:

  • "There is significant evidence…that John Wayne Gacy did not operate alone." —Attorney on news clip [58:33]
  • “He starts bringing up, you know, that there were other people that helped me.” —Nic [55:42]
  • “Jeff Rignall…believed that there was another man present at Gacy’s home.” —Nic [56:39]
  • News reports detail possible alibi conflicts and similarities to the Dean Corll serial killer case, where accomplices lured victims. [59:32–62:19]

• Skepticism and Alternative Explanations:
  Hosts discuss the credibility of accomplice theories, offering arguments both for and against, including the possibility of survivor memory distortion and Gacy’s manipulations.

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Execution, Legacy, and Unidentified Victims [68:22–71:46]

• Execution (May 10, 1994):
  Gacy is executed by lethal injection, remaining unrepentant.

  • “According to reports, Gacy did not express any remorse…His last words to his lawyer…‘Killing me would not bring anyone back.’ …It is also reported that his last words were ‘Kiss my ass.’” —Nic [69:47]

• Unidentified Victims:
  Several victims remain unidentified decades later, despite renewed forensic efforts.

• False Victims Found Alive:
  Some presumed Gacy victims have turned up living elsewhere, highlighting the chaotic record-keeping and communication of the era.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “If some sloppy guy…wants to show you a little trick with handcuffs…well, first let me show you a crane kick to the grundle.” —Captain [17:59]
• “He was known as the killer clown. John Wayne Gacy murdered 33 young men and was executed in 1993. But we’re learning the Gacy story may not be over.” —News clip [57:39]
• “Jack Hanley…one and the same. Both douche canoes.” —Captain [66:41]
• “We must hold him accountable for his actions.” —Nic [51:47]

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Timeline & Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | Focus | |-----------|--------------------------------------|------------------------------------------| | 07:00–19:50 | The Robert Piest Case | Gacy's approach, abduction, murder | | 19:50–29:42 | Initial Investigation and House Search | Police background check, evidence, search | | 30:17–37:01 | Surveillance and Police Frustration | Gacy’s games with police, further investigation | | 39:16–47:08 | Confessions and Body Discoveries | Gacy’s confessions, crawl space exhumations | | 47:08–63:33 | Trial, Psychology, and Accomplice Theories | Trial details, sanity, news reports, accomplices| | 68:22–71:46 | Execution and Lingering Mysteries | Execution, unresolved identities, Gacy’s legacy|

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Recommendations

• Book: John Wayne Gacy: Defending a Monster by Sam Amirante (Gacy’s defense attorney) [71:59]
  • “This story…reads more like a novel…a gory, grotesque tale.” —Nic [72:51]

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True Crime Garage delivers an immersive, sensitive, and deeply-researched look at the sickening crimes and investigation surrounding John Wayne Gacy—mixed with the hosts’ trademark dark humor and critical questions. This episode is invaluable for true crime fans wanting a comprehensive breakdown with both the facts and the lingering uncertainties.

Transcript

[Nick]

911, what is your emergency? Get off the field.

[Narrator]

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[Nick]

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[Reporter]

All contact with the spacecraft was lost due to a sudden geomagnetic storm.

[Captain]

Mission control dude, you copy?

[Narrator]

91 1. All new Thursdays, 8, 7 Central on ABC and stream on Hulu.

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[Captain]

Sam Foreign.

[Nick]

Welcome to True Crime Garage. Wherever you are, whatever you are doing. Thanks for listening. I'm your host, Nick and with me, as always, is a man that all week he's been calling me the Colonel. Well, he is the Captain.

[Captain]

Well, thanks, Colonel. It's good to be seen and it's good to see you. Smell like chicken.

[Nick]

Well, it's shake and bake. Tonight we are drinking Mother's Brewing Company's MILF out of Springfield, Missouri. MILF is a barrel aged Imperial Stout 11% ABV. Try some Mother's Brewing Company's MILF stout.

[Captain]

Today, a big happy birthday shout out to Saba. Happy birthday.

[Nick]

We also want to give a big thanks to Becky in Sandy Springs, Georgia.

[Captain]

And Kristen in Sabb, Centerville, Georgia.

[Nick]

We also have Misty from Lancaster, Ohio, and Hila from Edinburgh, Scotland.

[Captain]

And a big we like your jib to Fanny and Sweden.

[Nick]

We also have Sean and Mike in Hillview, Kentucky. They say our jibs are a cut above the rest.

[Larry]

Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

[Nick]

We like your jib. And how about Kristen in Hadley, Massachusetts? Kristen says that her jib doesn't drink, but it plays well with others.

[Captain]

I don't know if you want to advertise that.

[Nick]

And last but not least, a big shout out and thank you to John from Staten Island. John is recommending several beers from the very good people at Yards Brewing Company. Thank you for everybody for buying us around for this week's show. And if you want to buy us around for next week's show, go to truecrimegarage.com and click on the donate button.

[Captain]

And if you'd like to follow us on social media, Snapchat, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, all that stuffcrimegarage.

[Nick]

All right, everybody punch a clown and grab a chair and grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime.

[Captain]

Thank you, colonel.

[Nick]

This is true crime garage. And this is the case of John Wayne Gacy.

[News Anchor]

The cook county state attorney's office tonight denying reports that there is an investigation underway to find an accomplice to the murders of those 27 people, their bodies found at the home of John Gacy. Those reports are being spurred by statements of Jeff Rignall, who says Gacy drugged and sexually molested him at the Gacy home. Gacy himself scheduled to appear tomorrow in court to face the charges in connection with the Rignall case, but it's doubtful that he will be in court. The ramifications of the mass murder tonight continue to spread even to people totally unrelated to Gacy, his house, or those he had dealings with. The sad effects now reaching into Chicago's community of clowns.

[Clown Guild Member]

For hundreds of people in the Chicago area who use the grease paint, costumes and antics of a clown, this picture in the Chicago Tribune came as a shock. It was a publicity picture John Gacy used in his sometime role as an entertainer of children. Now clown organizations say their image has been damaged with guilt by association. These are members of the clown guild of metropolitan Chicago, better known by such names as Snappy, Happy, Wacko, Ho ho and me too. Pictures show them in action doing what they love, making youngsters laugh. Even a tiny smile will make their day. Sometimes they are paid for their work. Often they perform at no charge for charity. But now the first question people ask is did they know and work with John Gacy?

[Reporter]

We have checked the national organization, which is clowns of America, the Shriner organization, a number of the organizations within the Chicago area. And after checking with these people, we found that he is not now nor has ever been a member or associated with any of these organizations within this area.

[Clown Guild Member]

The public might be wondering how they can avoid a person with questionable character coming out to a party. What would be some of the ways that you could guarantee the type of people that you're coming out would be reputable?

[Reporter]

I believe the main thing would be to if they're going to get a clown, is to get an organization such as the vagabond clowns or clowns Metropolitan Chicago, Nairomi Clown troop, an organization that has a number of members and that way they can pick from those members.

[Clown Guild Member]

The clown guild wanted their story told not because they fear economic loss, but because of the apprehension they sense from the public. And tonight they offer insight into John Gacy by analyzing the way he put on his clown makeup. They say the lines forming his mouth are not rounded, but pointed, giving a harsh, mean look. Only a true clown could notice that.

[Captain]

All right, can't make that up, people. That's real news.

[Nick]

Let's start off by telling a story that takes place December 11, 1978, in des Plaines, Illinois, at a little place called Nissan's Pharmacy. John Wayne Gacy is there and he's busy writing up a proposal. He has met with the owner to do some remodeling at the pharmacy. He's taking measurements and shooting the shit with the owner. And while he's there, he also talks to a handful of the employees, most of them being young teenagers. Most of the people he speaks with are young females. After the appointment, John Gacy goes home. On the way home, he realizes that he forgot his appointment book at the pharmacy. He had another appointment that night, so it was important that he retrieved that book as soon as possible. Once he got home, he left his black Oldsmobile there and he hopped in his pickup truck. This is the one with the snow plow on the front of it. And he drove back to the pharmacy. And he was thinking that maybe it wouldn't be a complete waste of a trip if he somehow picked up a, you know, a plow job while he was out. You know, keep in mind, this is winter in Illinois. While he is there, he, when he pulls up, he bumps into a young man. This is 15 year old Robert Piest. Now, Rob had seen John Wayne Gacy at the pharmacy earlier that day. And he had overheard John talking to some of the pharmacy employees, telling them that he was looking to hire new help and that he started off his employees at $5 an hour. That's $5 an hour for part time workers. Now, Rob ps'd at the time. He's 15 years old. He's saving up for that magical day when he turns 16 years old to buy his first vehicle. He's saving up for a jeep. And he's worked very hard at the pharmacy. He's making $2.85 an hour, and he's asked his boss for a raise and was turned down for such. So he was interested in talking to Mr. Gacy about that position.

[Captain]

Yeah, this doubles his wage.

[Nick]

So as he's outside taking out the trash now, mind you, it's very cold out there, he sees the contractor pull up in the, in the pickup truck. He goes up to the window and he says, hi, Mr. Gacy, my name is Rob Piest. I'VE worked at the pharmacy for quite some time, and I heard you're looking to take on some new help. Well, Gacy says, well, I was. I was watching you work, and you're a pretty busy, hard worker. I like that. You know, while I was there taking my measurements and talking with the. With the owner, that. That's the time when most of the people would kind of screw around and, you know, they're not under the watchful eye of the owner. So I noticed the whole time you kept. You stayed busy and you kept working. So, yes, I would like to talk to you about working for my company. Rob tells Gacy that he should probably get back inside. That he didn't want the owner catching him while on the clock talking to the contractor about a new job. So he goes back inside. But before. So Gacy says, you know what? How about I wait for you and we can talk after you're done working. And I also have to go inside and collect my appointment book and take some more measurements. Anyway, so Gacy goes back in, says hi to the owner, collects his appointment book. He, you know, messes around for a little bit inside the store, and then he leaves the pharmacy and he sits in his truck waiting for Rob Piest. Well, Rob Piest comes out at the end of his shift. He's talking to Gacy. He says he's very much interested in a position. He couldn't talk much more about it that night because it was his mother's birthday. His mother was inside the pharmacy waiting to take Rob home. Well, Gacy says, you know what? We should probably hash this out tonight. I can't wait around to hire the right person. So how about we talk about the job and I'll drive you home afterwards. Well, Rob agrees to this. And inside Gacy's truck, John Wayne Gacy explains to the boy that before we can hire you, we have to fill out some paperwork. We have to fill out the appropriate tax forms. These. These forms are at my home, which it's. It's only about 20 minutes away.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

And I could drive you home after. I'll have you home in about 45 minutes.

[Captain]

No, thanks.

[Nick]

Rob accepts the offer. He's hopeful to get the new job. And now they're back at John Wayne Gacy's home. Now, at this point, Gacy is going to try to welcome the boy into his home. And we know Gacy's attitude by this point. He's probably talking a lot about himself, telling Rob how important he is, telling Rob that he's a registered Clown sounds.

[Captain]

Like somebody else I know.

[Nick]

Yeah. And then he offers the kid a beer, telling him that here at PDM you will learn that you don't just work hard, but we play hard too. And I can't just hire anyone. I got to make sure that you are a good fit. Now young Rob is eager to get home, but he decides that he's willing to play along and hang out with his potential future boss and maybe even sit and enjoy a beer with him. Now Gacy would walk off and he would go into the other room to collect the necessary paperwork. And when he returned, he had the paperwork with him, but he also had a pair of handcuffs.

[Captain]

All right, the famous handcuffs.

[Nick]

And in a sing songy tone he would say, I've got a trick I want to show you, John.

[Captain]

Trick I want to show you.

[Nick]

John waved the cuffs in front of Rob's face, showing him that the cuffs are very much real. John then placed the cuff around his left wrist and with a couple of clicks the cuff was secure around his wrist. And then Jon placed the open cuff around his right wrist and click, click, click. Now both cuffs are secure around Gacy's thick wrist in front of his big beer belly. He pulled the cuffs apart and the chains tightened again. He did it, demonstrating that the cuffs are very real. Then Gacy lifted up both arms and he quickly turned around. And almost instantly he turned back around again, facing young Rob. P.S. but now the cuffs were off. He had performed a real magic trick. Rob says, how the heck did you do that? Gacy says, I can show you, but first check this out. Gacy hands the handcuffs to Rob. Check them out. They're real. Rob checks him out, looking for a trick button or some kind of release. But these are real handcuffs. Rob agrees. These are real handcuffs. Okay, Gacy says, I'm going to turn around and I want you to put the cuffs on my wrist behind my back. Rob put the cuffs on Gacy's wrist. Gacy spins around again, facing Rob again. And Gacy's out of the cuffs. Wow. Rob thought. He's half surprised at the trick, but he's also probably playing along with this weirdo because he really wanted to get this. Good job. Alright, Gacy says, you want to know the trick? The trick is you have to have the key.

[Captain]

Well, no shit.

[Nick]

And he says this as if he's pulling the key out of thin air. Gacy holds out his hand and in it is a small handcuff key. Look here, I'll show you how to hide the key between your Fingers so that no one can see it. And I'll show you how to slip out of the cuffs very quickly. Let's start off by putting these cuffs on you.

[Captain]

Yeah, how about we don't?

[Nick]

Gacy secured each of the cuffs to the boy's thin wrist. John, with his thick fingers, starts to hand Rob the key. And then he quickly pulls his hand back away from Rob. Stop playing around, John. Give me the key. Rob watched in amazement and it appeared as if Gacy's face was transforming. His eyes fluttered and his pupils expanded and became dark. It was as if Rob was looking at a totally different person. Rob heard Gacy's phone ring. Rob looked down as he struggled with his arms, trying to get the cuffs to budge, but they wouldn't. And then he hears Gacy's voice. Well, we better get you home. Let's get you out of those cuffs. I was just playing around. Rob looked up and there was the old John Gacy again, his big round face smiling. Gacy took the key and he put it in the cuffs and unlatched them. Rob tells Gacy, you scared me. That's some trick. The two agreed to collect their things and go, returning to Rob's home. But before they could walk out the front door, Gacy said, you know, let me show you one more thing. You're going to love this. Gacy had a three foot piece of rope in one hand and he picked up a wooden hammer handle with the other hand. It's just a wooden handle though, there's no hammerhead on it. He very quickly tied a series of knots and he slid the wooden handle through a couple of them. Check this out. Gacy said with excitement. And he placed his contraption over the boy's head and around his neck. Rob asks, what kind of trick is this? Gacy twists the handle a few times and Rob's face instantly turns beet red. Rob is choking and the handle is wedged firmly against his back. Gacy jumps back and away from the boy. Rob falls to the floor and with one hand he's trying to get his fingers under the rope around his neck and the other hand is twisted up behind his back as he stretches, reaching, trying to grab the wooden handle. Gacy laughed and jumped about the room as he watched the boy squirm. The more Rob moved, the more he jerked, the tighter the rope got. Rob would not survive this trick. Gacy's phone rang again. The first time it rang, he had let the machine get it. This time Gacy answered, it was Gacy's relative Requesting that he go to the hospital because Gacy's elderly uncle's health had taken a bad turn and he was dying. Gacy said he would be there in about an hour. He hung up the phone and he carried Rob's lifeless body into his bedroom. He stripped the boy and he folded the clothes and placed them in a bag. He stuffed one or two pieces of cloth like material into Rob's mouth so fluids would not leak out. He went back out into the main room. He looked around the room and he saw the two beer bottles. He emptied them and he threw them in the trash. He grabbed Rob's parka, checked the pockets, and found a receipt for film from the pharmacy where he had picked up Rob. Gacy threw the receipt in the trash and folded up the parka and placed it in the bag with the clothes. He took a shower, got dressed and drove to the hospital. And on the way, he threw the bag with Rob's clothes in it in a Salvation army clothing Dropbox. That night at 11pm Harold Piest, with his wife and two children, went to the Des Plaines police department and filed the following missing persons report. Robert Jerome Piest, male Caucasian, age 15, slender to medium build, brown hair, brown eyes, tan Levi's T shirt, brown pants, brown suede shoes, tan parka. Last seen in the area, Nissan's Pharmacy.

[Captain]

Well, just a little psa, right? If some sloppy guy, right, is telling you, hey, I want to show you a little trick with some handcuffs, right? You say, well, first let me show you a kick. Let me, let me show you a crane kick to the grundle. Yes, ob that's what you do.

[Nick]

The thing here that I found interesting was that Harold P.S. with his wife and the two children, they went to the police department and filed the missing persons report.

[Captain]

Yeah, happy, happy birthday to your mother.

[Nick]

But we're talking about 1978. You know, we've covered lots of cases where we have missing boys in the late 70s, early 80s, and they don't really take these reports very seriously when you call them in, because a lot of times these police go to the effort to go out and look for this person and then they find out that the kid was just out on his own doing whatever he wanted to do. He was just running late or, you know, decided he was going to take off.

[Captain]

But this, this one's a little weird because he's leaving work and his mom was at his work and he just never made it home.

[Nick]

And I like that they went in there with the whole family, you know, and they're telling the officer, no, this kid is missing. You know, Harold explains that the kid has been gone for hours. It's his wife's birthday. They were celebrating. Rob wouldn't have missed that. And he had even called the pharmacy to see if Rob would be there. He was not. He spoke to the owner and the owner said, you know, that that is possible, that Rob might have talked to a contractor or something like that about a job. He had heard from the other kids. Well, he got the phone number for the contractor and Harold had called to ask the contractor about Rob. Well, he ends up getting the answering machine. Harold left a message on John Wayne Gacy's answering machine. Very likely right around the same time that Gacy was attacking the boy.

[Captain]

But we've all been there. You know what I mean?

[Nick]

We've all been there.

[Captain]

No, I mean, we've all been in Rob's shoes on the idea that, you know, let's say you're talking to somebody about a job. Oh, well, so just sit down and have a chat. And then you realize the conversation is not going to be about the job. Yeah, it's going to be. And then you just sit there like, okay, what the hell am I still doing here? Please let me leave.

[Nick]

Yes. Is this guy looking for a friend or to hire me? Right.

[Captain]

Yeah. I also think when you're about that age, you know, the, the 14 to 16, 17 year old boy age, I think, you know, you definitely get the creep factor by certain guys.

[Nick]

You do, you do. But I also think that when you see, at that age, when you see a successful adult, you have this opinion of them without even knowing them, that they're some kind of upstanding person. The next morning, the police call John Wayne Gacy's home. They speak with him because he's at home hosting a meeting amongst other businessmen, that he's, you know, working out some jobs or details of an upcoming job. And Gacy basically says, you know, I don't, yeah, I was at the pharmacy. I was there for a job. I didn't remember talking to any boys. I talked to some of the teenage girls that were there. I might have maybe a boy asked me about some shelving in the back or something like that. He goes, you know, he, he comes off like he's trying to be helpful, but he's not providing any information. He's not seen the boy that they're talking about. Well, that, that evening, Gacy takes the body of Rob. P.S. he loads it into his 79 Oldsmobile Delta 88 and he drives it to I, to the i55 bridge over top of the Des Plains River.

[Captain]

Okay.

[Nick]

And Gacy gets out of the vehicle, he opens up the truck, he hoist the boy's body up into his arms and he tossed the body into the river.

[Captain]

The plus size model was good at shot.

[Nick]

Well, after the officer learns the name of the contractor, he decides that there's some kind of evidence. There's enough evidence after talking to people at the pharmacy that there's a good chance that this John Wayne Gacy character probably talked to the boy. And for whatever reason, he's not, you know, admitting to that or he doesn't remember doing so. So he decides to run a background check on Gacy the next day.

[Captain]

Oh, imagine that.

[Nick]

Yeah. And he was surprised to find that Gacy had served time for committing sodomy on a teenager years earlier. Soon after the discovery, well, the officer worked very hard to obtain a search warrant for John Gacy's house. It was there that he believed that he would find Robert P.S.

[Captain]

So once they get the search warrant, they're going to search the Pogos, Pogo the Clown's house, Pogo's playhouse. Oh, God.

[Nick]

Yeah. So Gacy was not home at the time of the search, and so they conducted their investigation. They went into the home and they're looking for items to point to whether Rob P.S. was at the home or if he's still there. Now they don't find Rob P.S. there. Some of the items that they found that were confiscated from Gacy's home were the following. A jewelry box containing two driver's license, neither of them Gacy's. They also found a couple of rings. One of them included an engravement on it. And this was from the Maine West High school class of 1975 with the initials J, A S on it. They found a box containing marijuana and rolling papers, seven pornographic movies, marijuana pills including Valium, a switchblade knife, a stained section of rug, color photographs of pharmacies and drugstores, an address book, a scale, books about bi and gay lifestyles, a pair of handcuffs with keys, a nylon rope, a three foot long wooden handle with two holes drilled in each end of it, a small starter pistol with key with gun caps, basically like, like blanks. They also found police badges, some sex toys, a hypodermic syringe and an unlabeled small brown bottle. They found clothing that was way too small for John Wayne Gacy. And they found a receipt for a roll of film with a serial number on it. And this was From Nissan's pharmacy. Three automobiles belonging to Gacy were also confiscated. Jesus.

[Captain]

Guy's a baller.

[Nick]

Including the pickup truck that we discussed.

[Captain]

Earlier, plus size, model, money, as well.

[Nick]

As his 79 Oldsmobile and a van with PDM Contractors on its side. Now, within the trunk of the car, they found some pieces of hair. I'd like to talk about the receipt that was found.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

You know, there's, there's.

[Captain]

So we should assume that that was the receipt of the boys.

[Nick]

Well, that's, that's what their thought is. So they're the police. Their thought is, you know, this comes from Nissan's pharmacy. This is where the boy was. However, Gacy was there too. So we can't prove that this receipt belonged to the boy. You know, Gacy could have bought film at some point at the pharmacy. So what they do is they take the receipt and they go back to the pharmacy and they start discussing this receipt with a bunch of the employees. Well, they talk with one employee and her name is Kim Byers. She's a cashier there. She's a teenage girl. Well, Rob, P.S. was, was a pretty popular kid. I mean, he was very well liked by everyone. He was good looking kid. I think he, you know, he was, he was a kid that the, the girls kind of chased at high school.

[Captain]

Sounds a little bit like the colonel.

[Nick]

Nothing like the colonel. Anyway, they're talking to these different employees and this Kim Byers says, you know what? That night was a particularly cold night. And the door here, I'm, you know, the cashier is up by the door usually. And every time the door would open, all that cold air would rush in. So Rob, being a nice guy, he offers to let her borrow his parka, his jacket.

[Captain]

That's a gentleman. Yeah, that's a gentleman. That's how it's done.

[Nick]

Instead of standing up here and shivering your butt off, you know, here, wear this parka and you'll be warm for the evening.

[Captain]

Let me keep your butt warm is what he said.

[Nick]

Well, Kim Byers, she had a bit of a crush on Rob. So she had purchased some film for, from Nissan's pharmacy. And she purposely put the receipt in the jacket pocket because she thought, you know what? He'll find the receipt. He'll know that I left it in there by quote unquote mistake. And he'll, he'll come in, yeah, he'll come and talk to me and maybe.

[Captain]

That'S a smart move.

[Nick]

And maybe he'll ask me about the film. Maybe he'll ask me, you know, what, what am I, am I into photography or whatever? And so it's you want me to take your picture? It's there that the police learn that there is no way that that receipt could have ended up in Gacy's home unless Rob Piest and his parka were at Gacy's home at some point that evening.

[Captain]

Which this is going to give him probable cause to do another search, maybe a more in depth search. And also so let's get to that and let's get to the surveillance of John Wayne Gacy right after this. Quick Peer Foreign.

[Nick]

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[Larry]

911 what is your emergency?

[Nick]

Get off the field.

[Narrator]

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[Nick]

Five everyday heroes were launched into space.

[Reporter]

All contact with the spacecraft was lost due to a sudden geomagnetic storm.

[Captain]

Mission Control do you coughing 911 all.

[Narrator]

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[Captain]

All right, we're back. Big cheers to Dom over in England driving the bus. Cheers to you, mate.

[Nick]

John Wayne Gacy was called into the police department and he was told of the articles that they had confiscated. Now, Gacy was enraged and he immediately contacted his lawyer. The police basically had nothing to arrest him on and they eventually had to release him. After some more questioning about the PS boy's disappearance, Gacy was put under 24 hour surveillance. And if anybody knows anything about this 24 hour surveillance that John Wayne Gacy was on, it's, it's. I hate to make light of a, of a terrible situation, but it's the stuff that, it's a comedy to me, right, Captain? I mean, I don't know what you're talking about. Gacy would, he would, he would purposely, you know, drive fast so he could lose them. He knew, he knew he was under surveillance. He would, he would lose them. And there were other times where he would tell them, you know, I know you guys are having trouble keeping up with me, so if, if you, if you can't keep up, I'll be at this place in a half an hour, just meet me there. And then he would drive off and lose them. And sure enough, he would be where he said he was going to be a half an hour later. One of the times that he lost, that he lost him. They called the, the airport because they were worried that Gacy would fly out of the country and leave this situation that's going on because by this point, you know, they're convinced that they're going to find the PS boy either at his home somewhere or that he had done something with the boy. Now they, they call the airport and put his name on some kind of list. And it turns out they find him. He's two blocks away from his house. He's. He's looking at Christmas trees at a lot somewhere, right? You know, and there was once happening one situation. The, the police car breaks down. And these are unmarked police cars, but the police car breaks down and Gacy stops his vehicle. He gets out and he goes up to the officers and he says, you know, what's the problem with the car? And said, the car broke down. He said, okay, well, since, you know, why don't I just give you guys a lift? You can ride with me for the remainder of the day until you get a new car. Right.

[Captain]

What's fascinating to me is you're under surveillance for this missing teenage boy. And the cops at this point are probably assuming that this teenage boy is dead. And. And you're just going about your business, you know, just buying Christmas trees.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Captain]

Nothing's happening.

[Nick]

Yeah. And the other thing that's going on here, remember we talked about that one ring that was found in Gacy's home, and they end up believing it had the initials J. A. S on it? They believe that the. The ring could have belonged to a guy by the name of John Sick. This is somebody we talked about yesterday. The situation here is they also discover that three former employees of Gacy's have also mysteriously disappeared. Now, the problem with this situation is these cases were reported in Chicago. They weren't reported to the Des Plaines Police Department. Remember, the P's family went to the Des Plaines Police Department to let them know that Rob was missing.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

And it wasn't until then that a Des Palain's police officer ran a background.

[Captain]

Check that three times fast.

[Nick]

Yeah, I couldn't. I couldn't say it. Once they run the background check and they see that Gacy, you know, he has this sodomy charge. Had the Chicago police ran his background check with these other missing people, and some of these cases, they. It was believed the last person who had seen them was Gacy. We might have been able to cut this list a little shorter. So they don't have the evidence, but now they think that Gacy could be responsible for the murder of anywhere between one to four persons. The thing here is, after they searched his home, they called in some of his friends. Now, these were. I say friends, but there are also people that worked for John Wayne Gacy. And two of the people that they talked to, and we mentioned these names yesterday, is David Cram and Mike Rossi. Remember, we had the discussion. We wondered if they were the same person just using different names. You know, sometimes when they tell these stories, they make up fake names to. For potential victims to. To hide their idea.

[Captain]

But the jury's out, and they are.

[Nick]

They're different people.

[Captain]

All right?

[Nick]

And the reason why. The reason why I got confused was they had similar stories. They both worked for John Wayne Gacy. They both told police that at one time or another, they had done projects for Gacy at his home. And this included digging trenches in the crawl space, as well as lifting up floorboards and digging trenches under there. They had also.

[Captain]

Glad the colonel figured it all out.

[Nick]

They had also poured concrete for him. Remember, Michael Rossi was the boy that was driving the missing guy's vehicle. Right. And David Cram. Now, David Cram, he was with John Wayne Gacy the night that Gacy returned to his home after the first search was conducted. And he walked room to room with John Wayne Gacy as he inspected the things that the. The police may have taken and what they looked through.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

And during this interrogation process with the police, David Cram tells them that Gacy, the first place he went to in the home after you guys searched it was the crawl space where I dug those trench before.

[Captain]

Right. So at some point, we need to check that crawl space.

[Nick]

Yeah, that's exactly what the police want to do. They want to get in that crawl space. They. They didn't dig around in there the first time.

[Captain]

Now, the police also make a lot of statements about saying, like you were saying, John Wayne Gacy's given us rides. You know, our car is breaking down. And he would just kind of stop by and talk to us. And I think he even took him out to dinner and a few odd things like that. And the police had to keep reminding themselves, like, yeah, this guy's a very charming guy, and he seems like, on the surface, just completely innocent, but there's all these. There's all this evidence leading to the fact that he's not. So they had to keep reminding themselves, we're police officers. You know, we have to keep doing our job.

[Nick]

Yeah. And the police now, they're becoming frustrated because this surveillance that they're conducting, they're kind of looking like. Like fools in this whole situation because it's, like I said it, comical.

[Captain]

So we'll talk about the fish dinner. Right. So do you know much about this?

[Nick]

I. I know just a little bit about it. You're talking about when he invites the. The guys, the officers that are surveilling him.

[Captain]

Right. There's. Right.

[Nick]

They're out front of his house.

[Captain]

Yeah. And he's. At this point, he. He knows he's under surveillance. He's already talked to the cops multiple times. But he cooks him a fish dinner. Right. So they're like, okay, well, we'll go in the house. Now, this is after they searched already.

[Nick]

Right.

[Captain]

But as they're eating the fish dinner, because, you know, the fish has, you know, an odor. Odor. I think because there was a secondary odor, it really Drew their attention to the odor in the house.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Captain]

And as they're eating this fish dinner, they're going, something stinks in here.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Captain]

And it's not the fish.

[Nick]

Yeah. And I think one of the officers said that it wasn't something that they outwardly noticed immediately, but it was one of those situations where as the longer they sat in the home, every time the furnace would kick on and start blowing that hot air around, that they would notice this, this foul stench.

[Captain]

Yeah. This funk.

[Nick]

So the police, they are frustrated due to the lack of evidence that they've collected regarding the disappearance of Robert. P.S. they decide to arrest Gacy on possession of marijuana and valium during this time, during this arrest. Now Gacy is awaiting action on some other charges. Remember yesterday we talked about Jeff Ringnall? Now this guy, he is the one that was abducted by Gacy and he went, and he, he went to the area that he was taken from and he was looking for the vehicle that, that he had gotten into.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

And he found the vehicle and he wrote down the license plate. Well, he took that plate to the, the police and once he got their John Wayne Gacy's name from them, he filed sexual assault charges against.

[Captain]

Good for him.

[Nick]

So at this time, unbeknownst to the investigators, we have this, this other charge, this sexual assault charge.

[Captain]

Right. So they, they have him in custody and they're going to keep doing more searches. But then what comes from that?

[Nick]

Well, they, they're also interrogating Gacy at this point and he's already lawyered up. What the cops don't know is that Gacy has already confessed to his attorneys. Okay, well, the attorneys think that he's suicidal because during these confessions he's telling his attorneys, you know, for many years I've been the judge, jury and executioner of many. And I'm going to be the judge, jury and executioner of myself.

[Captain]

Okay.

[Nick]

So the attorneys believe him to be suicidal and they want to put him in the hospital. This ends up leading to more police interrogations with Mr. Gacy. During these interrogations, Gacy starts confessing to murder. He does state that he had killed someone, but it had in fact been in self defense, of course, and that he had buried the body underneath the, the garage. Well, they've not started digging yet, but this guy still wants to talk. And he starts telling them, you know, this is something that's happened more than once. I've, I've. And they start really digging on him now because he, he, they suspect him of as many as four that's all they were expecting to hear about was four. And at some point, only that's a lot. He starts saying. Well, he starts saying it's probably more like 30 people.

[Captain]

Jesus.

[Nick]

And he states that he buried most of the remains in the victim of the victims beneath the crawl space of his home. I want to take you through these confessions here a little bit, okay?

[Captain]

All right.

[Nick]

The first confession, it takes place. He says that this took place in 71 or 72.

[Captain]

Well, it's a little strange, though, that you showed up to the garage today full clown makeup.

[Nick]

That's my normal get up nowadays. He says that this murder took place in 71 or 72, I believe was in the month of January. He said that he picked up a boy at a bus station and they decided to drive around, smoke some pot. They were going to go back to his place, eat some food, you know, have lots of drinks.

[Captain]

And he had a couple magic tricks.

[Nick]

To show and just party. And he said that they then engaged in consensual sex. He says that he woke up the next morning to find the boy, the young man, standing in the doorway of his bedroom holding a knife that the guy had taken from Gacy's kitchen. He says that the guy tries to attack Gacy, and Gacy, defending himself, gets the knife from the guy, and he stabbed him several times, killing the guy. This is the guy that he buried in the garage.

[Captain]

Well, not a guy. It was a boy. Okay.

[Nick]

The other situation is he starts talking about, remember we had but Covic, his employee, old Butkovich. Well, remember they had the dispute about the money? He tells a story that he decides to. When Buckovich and his buddies come over to try to collect the money, that he said, you know what? I'll pay you as soon as I can. We ain't got nothing to do. Why don't we, you know, drink some booze, some beers, hang out and party? He said they partied all night long, and he's not sure what happened, but when he woke up the next morning, there was a dead boy yolo with pogo on his floor. So he had to get rid of it.

[Captain]

Mm. This is odd. Stories from John Wayne Gacy.

[Nick]

Yeah. So those are his stories about why they might find some dead bodies in his home. On the first day that the police begin their digging, they find two bodies. One of the bodies is that of John Buckovich, who was buried underneath the garage. I believe in this situation, Gacy even, like, put an X on the floor and said, you know, dig here.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

He was going to Kind of lead them to some of the bodies. The other body that they found was in the crawl space. As the days passed, the body count grew higher. Some of the victims were found in with their underwear still stuffed, lodged deep in their throats. Other victims were buried so close together that the police believed that they were probably killed or buried at the same time. The police had removed a total of 27 bodies from Gacy's home.

[Captain]

Jesus.

[Nick]

They also started finding bodies in the Des Plains river, four in total. One of the bodies found in the river. Well, they could easily link that body to Gacy because that man's identification was One of the IDs found in Casey's home.

[Captain]

Right, right, right.

[Nick]

One of the victims found in the river was unidentified, but he had Tim Lee tattooed on one of his arms. A friend of the victim's father had recognized the Tim Lee tattoo while reading a newspaper story about the discovery of the body in the river. The victim's name was Timothy o'. Rourke. Now, he was such a fan of Bruce Lee that he took Lee's last name and he added it to his first name to make the tattoo on his arm.

[Captain]

So it was just a really bad idea for a tattoo, but glad that they identified him.

[Nick]

Soon after the discovery of all of these bodies, the house was destroyed. It was basically reduced to rubble. Unfortunately, among the 32 bodies that were discovered, that of Robert P.S. was still unaccounted for. P.S. was still missing. Finally, in April of 1970, the remains of Robert P.S. were discovered in the Illinois River. His body had been lodged somewhere along the river, making it difficult to find this body. And at some point, it must have become dislodged and carried the corpse to the Dresden Dam, where it was eventually discovered.

[Captain]

Go with me on this theory, though. Okay? So the first guy he talks about, we already know about the guy that he picked up in Chicago.

[Nick]

Right?

[Captain]

The one that he raped.

[Nick]

The guy that got away.

[Captain]

The guy that got away. Now, think about Gacy's first story. There's some things that make sense here. You picked up a boy, you sexually assaulted him, you raped him. He wasn't dead. And when that boy comes to, that boy grabbed a knife and decided he's going to kill the bastard that did this to him.

[Nick]

I see. I see what you're saying. There's. There might be some truth to what went down. And actually, one of the bodies that was found in his home, they believe that. Now, keep in mind, a lot of these people are very decomposed by the time they find him. But this Person had evidence of having been stabbed to death. You know, where you have the markings on the ribs from. From the knife. Yeah.

[Captain]

So, I mean, maybe there's some validity there. I would suspect myself that John Wayne Gacy probably killed in Iowa.

[Nick]

It's. It's possible. The other thing here, too, is when Gacy was confessing, he said that, you know, I killed about 30 people. He estimated that there might be about 30 people in his home that they would find. And he said that I threw the last five bodies in the river. Well, they only ever recovered four. Four bodies, you know, and then we know how many they found at his home. But there still could be that missing victim out there from when he was in Chicago. Police have a lot of bodies to work with here, and they're going to start using dental records and other clues to help identify the victims who were found on Gacy's property. All but nine of the victims were finally identified.

[Captain]

No, that's still a lot of people.

[Nick]

Yeah. And even though their searches had ended, we have a trial to deal with regarding John Wayne Gacy. In February of 1980, Gacy's murder trial began in Cook County, Illinois. Jury members consisted of five women and seven men. There was a change of venue requested. And what ended up happening was they did not grant the change of venue. Instead, the judge decided that he would select jurors from another city and have them bust in.

[Captain]

Very odd. It's just like Casey Anthony.

[Nick]

Yeah, that. That was one of the weird coincidences that we came across. And he chose the. The city of Rockford, which, Another coincidence was 90 miles away, almost the exact same distance, is chosen in the Casey Anthony case. The defense is going to say that John Wayne Gacy is not guilty by reason of insanity. Three psychiatric experts appearing for the defense at Gacy's trial testified that they found Gacy to be a paranoid schizophrenic with multiple personality disorder. Now, I want to talk about this for a little bit, because during some of his confessions, Gacy kept bringing up another name, and this name was Jack Hanley. He said that Jack Hanley had committed some of the murders, and he even gave a full personality profile of Mr. Jack Hanley. Now, but it was very clear to the people that he was talking with that Gacy was talking about himself.

[Captain]

Jack Hanley is himself.

[Nick]

Jack Hanley is another version of John Wayne Gacy. During the opening statements, they presented evidence by the prosecution that left a stunning impression on the jurors and the courtroom spectators, many of them saying that they had learned some of the details of Gacy's killings. For the very first time, Gacy's defense lawyers stated that Gacy's actions were irrational and impulsive and that he was insane and no longer in control of his conduct. The prosecution brought its first witness to the stand. This is Marco Buckovich, the father of John Buckovich. He was the first witness of many that included the family and friends of the murdered victims. Some of the eyewitnesses broke down into tears on the bench. Following the friends and family of the victims came the testimony of those who worked for Gacy who survived strange sexual encounters with him with their boss. Some of his ex employees told of his mood swings and how he would trick them into being handcuffed. Others told how he constantly made passes at them while he was at work.

[Captain]

And in typical fashion, the prosecution is going to come out and say, well, we found him to be sane.

[Nick]

Yes, his. Their experts say that John Wayne Gacy is a sane man. Very much to the surprise of everyone in the courtroom. When the defense started their case, the first witness that they called was Jeff Rignall. Remember, this was the person that was abducted by John Wayne Gacy.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

It was expected that he would have been called to testify on behalf of the prosecution. However, Rignall had previously mentioned his encounter with Gacy in a book, and the prosecution believed that it would damage their case if they took him on as a witness. So they didn't call him. Gacy's defense asked Rignall while on the stand if he thought that Gacy was able to control himself. And Jeff did not believe so, considering the savagery. Savagery of Gacy's attack.

[Captain]

Right, right, right.

[Nick]

Test him.

[Captain]

But you know, John Wayne Gacy talks about this later in life too, that if you're going to say that somebody like, for somebody to do what he did, if you're going to try to say that that's sane, then you don't want to be on the same side of the fence as that person. Yeah, and I think there's some validity to that. I mean, if you're capable of murdering this many people and burying them in your crawl space, you're crazy. You know, I mean, so. But the problem with our system is that we make that lenient. If the person was insane and it should not be, it should be. No, we do think you're crazy, but, you know, you're going away forever.

[Nick]

Well, and what the prosecution was trying to do was they were trying to point out the clear difference to the jury between the difference of being abnormal and insane. You know, they're saying Gacy is not your normal dude, but he's not. He's not legally.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

Insane. We must hold him accountable for his actions. Now, Jeff Rignall, he did not test. His testimony did not last very long because while on the stand, he broke down while telling the court the details of his rape. Rignall was so stressed out that he began to vomit and cry hysterically, and he was eventually removed from the courtroom. Now, in an effort to prove Gacy's insanity, friends and family of Gacy's were called to the stand. Gacy's mother told how her husband abused Gacy on several occasions, at one time whipping him with a leather strap.

[Captain]

Yeah, well, that's the razor. The razor belt we talked about.

[Nick]

And Gacy's sisters told a similar story of how she repeatedly witnessed her brother being verbally abused by their father.

[Captain]

Yeah, but that's. That's no excuse. You know, you become 18 years old, you're responsible for your actions.

[Nick]

Well, after the court proceedings were over, it only took two hours of deliberation for the jury to come back with its verdict. They found John Wayne Gacy.

[Captain]

Well, that's after one hour of eating and one hour of a coffee break.

[Nick]

They found John Wayne Gacy guilty. Gacy was found guilty in the deaths of 33 young men. And as one of the people in the court stated that he had the singular notoriety of having been convicted of more murders than anyone else in American history. And Gacy received the death penalty.

[Captain]

Right. And it's strange to me, talk about a mom being an enabler, which we talked about in the Casey Anthony case. John Wayne Gacy's mom still never believed that he was guilty of the crimes.

[Nick]

Right. And I wonder how much of that is that. She believes that her son was insane.

[Captain]

Okay.

[Nick]

You know, that he was not guilty by reason of insanity.

[Captain]

Well, diving into the sick, twisted mind of John Wayne Gacy, we. We actually. When we had an apartment together, we actually remember those documentaries they started coming out with. Not documentaries, but reenactments, I guess.

[Nick]

Yeah. They would do a movie of, like, a serial killer that.

[Captain]

Yeah, Dahmer. And I think we watched Dahmer together, and I think we watched. I think we watched Gacy together, too.

[Nick]

Did Gacy had the. The. The big guy that played in Pee Wee Herman's Playhouse? Yeah, he was Buxton. I can't remember his first name, but. Francis Buxton. Yeah. That paid to have the bicycle stolen.

[Captain]

And.

[Nick]

Yeah, he was also the. He played center for the basketball team on Teen Wolf.

[Captain]

Oh, yeah. Great movie.

[Nick]

Wonderful movie.

[Captain]

But great actor, though. Underrated. Because if you watch that, I. I'd recommend it. As far as entertainment, if you. If you're into this thing and you kind of want to get a glimpse into maybe what some of the visual of, you know, with the pogo the clown and all that stuff, it was an interesting movie. And I think he did a great job. You know, Francis did a great job acting the part. It's not very factual. I actually rewatched it. Why? You know, preparing for the show.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Captain]

It's not that factual. There's a lot of stuff that they kind of miss on. Yeah. And I think that, you know, Hollywood it up, but it is. I think we watched that when we had an apartment together. But something that I thought was really interesting going back over this and something that I've kind of never thought about too much or never really made my ears perk up is this idea that, you know, normally it's like, okay, John Wayne Gacy saying, well, okay, so there was this other guy. And then we start thinking that, well, maybe that's split personality. But when he starts talking later in life, before, you know, his death, he's going to start talking about other people involved.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Captain]

And other accomplices. And every time that he's, like, talked about it in the past, I never really put much weight into that.

[Nick]

Yeah. During the 80s, during his time in prison, he starts bringing up, you know, that there were other people that helped me with these killings. You know, there were two. Or I think it. Sometimes he's. He's quoted as saying, there are two people that helped him. Other times, I believe he said as many as three people that I think.

[Captain]

I think the total. I think one of the interviews I watched, he said four.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Captain]

And during that interview, he actually named names. Now, again, never put much weight to this until, you know, one of the accusers talks about that, well, it wasn't just John Wayne Gacy. There was another guy there.

[Nick]

Yeah. Jeff Rignall. He was the one that was abducted and got away. And he would later state that he believed that there was another man present at Gacy's home that night that he was attacked.

[Captain]

Right. Which starts making you think, well, there's some validity. And if you listen to the trailer, we. We talked about how police work saying, well, we're denying that we're looking for accomplices, but there seems to be like, there was some evidence to point that there might have been during some of the attacks. And I would just argue to say this is a Guy that was throwing these huge parties, watching these stag films and also these big parties where they're doing, you know, orgies. And obviously there's a big stretch from going to that to having somebody be accomplice of murder. But I'm just saying what kind of, what kind of people, what kind of sick people was he running with?

[Nick]

And I think we should play this news clip because I think it will explain the situation in better detail than what we can.

[Larry]

Larry he was known as the killer clown. John wayne Gacy murdered 33 young men and was executed in 1993. But we're learning the Gacy story may not be over. New details of the investigation have only recently come to light and may show Gacy didn't act alone. 33 years after his arrest, there are still lingering questions about John Wayne Gacy. Terry Sullivan was on the prosecution team.

[Reporter]

I felt that from the beginning that, that there may be loose ends. It was such a huge case and especially at the time.

[Larry]

The idea of a Gacy accomplice was raised from the beginning by Jeffrey Rignall. He is one of a few people who survived Gacy's attack. He said another man was at Gacy's home the night Gacy raped him. Attorneys Robert Stevenson and Steve Becker have been trying to help families of victims find answers. They've been getting tips from the public and they've uncovered information that they say shows someone else may have been involved in some of the killings.

[Reporter]

There is significant evidence out there that suggests that not only did John Wayne Gacy not operate alone, may not have been involved in some of the, the murders and the fact that he was largely a copycat killer.

[Larry]

For this story, we're focusing on two of Gacy's victims, Russell Nelson and Robert Gilroy. September 15, 1977, Gilroy sends a letter to his girlfriend from a mailbox not far from Gacy's home. Then at 6pm that same day, Gilroy is supposed to meet other kids at a bus stop for a trip to equestrian school. But he never shows up. He was never seen again. But according to Gacy's receipts in court records, Gacy's plane ticket shows he flew to Pennsylvania September 12th and didn't return until the night of the 16th, the day after Gilroy was last seen alive. Could someone have been helping Gacy? Listen to this recording of a phone conversation between Gacy in prison and a friend in Chicago.

[Nick]

Well, I wasn't even in Illinois when.

[Reporter]

16 of these so called individuals disappeared.

[Larry]

A month later, October 1977, Russell Nelson disappears According to testimony from his mother, Russell went to a disco on North Broadway with a friend who was several years older. The friend called the family to say Nelson just disappeared outside the disco and that he would look for him if they'd send money. He called me two or three times a week and threatened me for money. He said he was staying down here to look for my son Russell. Nelson's brothers went to Chicago to look for Russell and met with the friend who was asking their mother to send money to help search for Russell. The friend offered Russell's brothers a job with John Wayne Gacy. Russell Nelson's sister in law recently told us the family is anxious for answers.

[Nick]

I would like to have if anybody else is involved in Barack, justice for what they have done to him. Or it could have been somebody else else there.

[Larry]

And another possible connection to Gacy. It turns out a few months before Russell Nelson disappeared, Gacy did work at a drug store just blocks from where the friend lived.

[Reporter]

I think it tells us that John Wayne Gacy was using other individuals to procure young boys over state lines.

[Larry]

According to Becker and Stevenson, the friend is still alive and now living in another state.

[Reporter]

If in fact Gacy had other accomplices or people who knew something that was going on, those people should be be brought to justice. It's scary in and of itself that there may be others out there.

[Larry]

There's something else mysterious about the cases of Robert Gilroy and Russell Nelson. While Gacy was known to use a rope and bore to strangle his victims, the autopsy reports for Gilroy and Nelson show they died from asphyxiation from suffocation, not strangulation. The report says that each had cloth in their mouths.

[Nick]

They claim that I strangled each and.

[Reporter]

Every one of them.

[Nick]

Look at your strangulation. Put a rope around there and I can strangle them. After they were handcuffed.

[Reporter]

Then how come.

[Nick]

The autopsy reports no man step which.

[Reporter]

Tells you there had to be more than one person.

[Larry]

In fact, 13 victims were listed as suffocation. Another serial killer case may offer insight to Gacy's mode of operation. In Terry Sullivan's book Killer Clown, a detective asked Gacy where he got the idea for the torture board. Gacy replies, from Elmer Wayne Henley. Henley and another boy helped serial killer Dean Corll, whose case has a lot of similarities with Gacy. Corll abducted, raped, tortured and murdered 28 boys, mostly teenagers in the early 1970s in Houston. He often used handcuffs and strangled his victims.

[Reporter]

They do follow Corll's mode of operation almost Identically. And one of the most significant parts about Corll is that he used two much younger individuals to assist him in gathering up and luring in his victims.

[Narrator]

Nothing as far as killing or recruiting or bringing. We had no evidence. We thought about it, but we just never saw any evidence.

[Larry]

Gacy's defense lawyer, Sam Amiranti, says he doesn't believe any of it. He says Gacy confessed to everything early on and after years in prison, began to change his story.

[Narrator]

I used to talk to Gacy about maybe somebody else committed the offense. Maybe Gacy was in some sort of stupor or drug state or alcohol state and didn't know what was going on around him. And we sort of would plant a seed in John's brain as to what happened. He would look at us, you know, maybe. You know, maybe you're right. Maybe that's really what happened.

[Larry]

Becker and Stevenson will be taking their case to law enforcement.

[Reporter]

These individuals did end up in Gacy's crawl space. So we're just looking to find out the. The whole truth about these cases. And we followed these leads to this point. If these individuals were waking working with John Wayne Gacy to procure young boys, they should be held to justice.

[Larry]

The scope of the Gacy case is as complex as it is disturbing. And after three decades, there are still questions that haunt investigators as well as the families of victims still looking for answers.

[Captain]

All right, thank you, Larry.

[Nick]

So what do you think about everything that they were reporting on there regarding these. The, you know, the two victims that they talked about? You know, Gacy might have been gone during one of the, you know, off in Pennsylvania.

[Captain]

Yeah, I don't know how much, you know, I got a plane ticket, so that proves I was here. Nah. You don't have anybody that saw you?

[Nick]

Not only that, he could have. The boy could have ended up at his house the next day once he got home.

[Captain]

Yeah, the. The reason why I feel that there is some validity to this is one, they investigated it. The prosecution thought there was maybe some ties. And the fact that there was, you know, a victim that talked about it. And so that makes it to me a lot more like a situation with, like, the Johnny Gosh type thing where it's like, well, here's this guy that was predominant and trying to raise his social status, and he was around people that had social status. And was there some kind of weird sex ring going on? I don't know. I think there is some evidence to show that.

[Nick]

Well, and I'll tell you what, I'm gonna kind of present the thing from both sides of the fence here on the potential case that there was an accomplice or accomplices. The thing is, we have a couple guys that work for John Wayne Gacy that knew he was a weirdo. They said, you know, he tricked me into handcuffs and he came on to me and he did all this weird stuff. He would have these weird parties. But I also, even though I knew the guy was a weirdo, I, I, you know, I did work at his house digging trenches and lifting floorboards and these different projects, and I did it without asking any questions. That does seem a little weird to me. Could they have been rounding up people off of the streets for Gacy and he's. He's paying them, you know, 200 bucks a person or. Or something of that nature. Possibility.

[Captain]

Right. So then by saying, well, I dug ditches and stuff, you're implementing yourself less.

[Nick]

Yeah, yeah. And I. And I don't want to. And now I'm going to talk about it from the flip side here. I don't want to discredit any victim. You know, this. This Jeff guy, he was. He was abducted. He was taken to Gacy's home. He thankfully gets away. He's the one that says he saw another man there. But let's keep in mind Jeff was blacking out. He was going in and out of consciousness this entire period. Is there a chance that he is misremembering, that he doesn't. He doesn't fully understand everything that he thought that he saw during this situation?

[Captain]

Yeah, it's possible.

[Nick]

We also talked about. There were several people that said that, you know, once Gacy got you in the handcuffs, that he almost. He. He turned into a different person. Almost like he was possessed to the point where he even slightly looked different, where. Where they didn't even recognize him.

[Captain]

Jack Hanley.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Captain]

Well, here's the verdict on that, though, right? John Wayne Gacy. Jack Hanley. One in the same. Both douche canoes.

[Nick]

Yeah. So that's one full canoe right there.

[Captain]

That is.

[Nick]

The thing is, the other thing is, with Gacy, we see at the very beginning his defense attorneys. Now, I got to point this out because this is a strange situation. His defense attorney was a private. Well, not a private. He was a public defender for several years, his colonel, and he decided to go into private practice. Well, unfortunate for him. His first client was John Wayne Gacy. Can you imagine. Can you imagine that situation? But the situation is this, you know, when his attorney tells Gacy, says, you know what? You've Got to be insane to do this. And we're, we're going to recommend that we, we state that you're not guilty by the reason of insanity. I believe Gacy ran with that. He's like, oh, yeah, that's a good idea. I didn't think of that. Oh, remember my good friend Jack Hanley, who did a lot of these murders? So it seems to me like we have a situation here where somebody might have presented some information to, to Gacy. And he's saying, well, I've been stuck in prison for a while. My execution date is drawing near. How about I get creative like Mr. Ted Bundy? And, you know, Bundy started confessing to things towards the end. What if Gacy thought, well, I can concoct some stories and buy me some time.

[Captain]

Right? Yeah. Again, the reason why I have some validity or why I feel there's some validity to it is one, the prosecution thought that it was possible. And the victim. And this is going to bring us up to his execution.

[Nick]

Yes. On May 10, 1994, John Wayne Gacy was executed at Statesville Correctional center in Crest Hill, Illinois by lethal injection. His last meal consisted of a dozen deep fried shrimp, a bucket of original recipe chicken from kfc, a pound of fresh strawberries and french fries. Now, I'm guessing here, Captain, what actually happened? Is he. That's probably what he requested. He probably got some fried chicken from the prison kitchen. His execution was a minor media sensation. There were large crowds of people gathered for the execution party outside of the penitentiary. There were several arrests during those execution parties for public intoxication, open container violations and disorderly conduct. Vendors sold Gacy related T shirts and other merchandise and the crowd cheered at the moment when Gacy was pronounced dead. According to reports, Gacy did not express any remorse. His last words to his lawyer in his cell were something to the effect that killing him would not bring anyone back. It is also reported that his last words were kiss my ass, which. Which is not really what he said while he was, you know, lying there waiting to die.

[Captain]

Can you imagine? You're the prison guard, you're going up and going, well, we got poke.

[Nick]

Yeah, yeah, and kiss my ass. They say those are his last words, but, you know, he didn't actually give a final statement, but those were his last words in the sense that when he was being led to the execution chamber, he looked at one of the correctional officers and said, kiss my ass.

[Captain]

Kiss my ass.

[Nick]

Well, worse than that, several of Gacy's victims that were found buried in his home still to this day have not been identified.

[Captain]

Right. And that's. That's a tragedy.

[Nick]

Yeah. And we have a situation where I believe that within the last 10 years or so, they did identify one of those unidentified victims. There was a situation in 2013 where there was a man that was always believed to have been murdered by John Wayne Gacy, but he was found living in Montana. So that made him the fifth potential victim found alive in the past two years between 2011 and 2013. The investigators tracked him down. This was after basically what happened with him. Was he. The last time his family spoke to him, he had stated that he was going to be hitchhiking from New York City out to California. And they thought because they had never heard from their son for all these years, that he may have been passing through Chicago and got picked up by Gacy somehow. Unfortunately for the family, they were. They believed him to be a victim for quite some time, but found that he was living in Montana all these years later. And he did reunite with his father. Unfortunately, his mother passed away believing he was a victim.

[Captain]

Right. But he didn't. He just didn't like his family anymore.

[Nick]

He just. Yeah, he. He decided to leave town, and he never, you know, reconnected with his family. He. He actually didn't even know that he was considered to be a victim of John Wayne Gacy.

[Captain]

Well, I want to personally thank you, Colonel, for sharing the stories that will give me nightmares about Pogo and John Wayne Gacy. Do we have any recommended reading for the week?

[Nick]

We do. This week, we're recommending John Wayne Gacy Defending a Monster by Sam Amirante. And now Sam is the public defender that turned into his private practice, and he became John Wayne Gacy's attorney. And he wrote this many years later. But I'll give you a little. A little clip here. He answered the phone one day, Sam did, and he heard. Sam, could you do me a favor? This is how the story began of what now has become part of America's True Crime hall of Fame. It's a gory, grotesque tale. It's almost like a Stephen King novel. And I'll tell you what, one thing that I find that's hard to find in the true crime genre. You know, so many of these books are written by former detectives or former FBI. They're not true authors. They're not true storytellers.

[Captain]

Dollars.

[Nick]

Sam, it would, you would think, would fall into that category having been a lawyer and then going on to become a judge. However, this story, it really. It reads like a Truman Capote book, you know, where it reads more like a novel, more like like a story. So I highly recommend John Wayne Gacy defending a monster and you can pick that up by going to our website truecrimegarage.com and click on the Amazon banner. Thanks to everybody for listening. Thanks for the 5 star reviews and thank you for telling a friend about the show. And we hope to see all of you back here in the garage next week for another episode. And until then, be good, be kind and don't live.

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