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True Crime Garage
Katie Janness /// Part 2 /// 761
01:09:20
Katie Janness /// Part 2 /// 761 Part 2 of 2 www.TrueCrimeGarage.com In July of 2021- 40 year old Katie Janness was walking her dog in a city park in Atlanta, Georgia when the two were attacked. Piedmont Park was just a short walk from Katie’s home. The two had walked together in the park many times. But on this night both were attacked and stabbed by an unknown assailant. Just before 1AM Katie’s partner Emma discovered Katie in the park and called 911. Please help get justice for Katie Janness. If you have any information please contact the Atlanta Police Department by calling 1(404) 614-6544 Beer of the Week - Weird & Gilly by Single Cut Beer Smiths Garage Grade 4 out of 5 bottle caps Follow True Crime Garage on X @TrueCrimeGarage / Follow Nic on X @TCGNIC / Follow The Captain on X @TCGCaptain Listen to True Crime Garage Off The Record. Now available on Apple Podcast Subscriptions and to everyone everywhere on Patreon.
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Picture this.
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It's the end of a long week. You're unwinding in the tub, listening to your favorite true crime podcast and then
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chronic hives come back again in the middle of the episode.
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What a wet blanket looks like another spell of itchy, swollen, red or skin colored hives.
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If you have chronic spontaneous urticaria or
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csu, there may be a different treatment option. Worried about your chronic hives interrupting our next episode? Learn more@treatmyhives.com Garage.
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Welcome to True Crime Garage. Wherever you are, whatever you're doing, thanks for listening. I'm your host, Nick and with me as always, ladies and gentlemen, he is
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the Ted Lasso of podcasting.
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Here is the captain and you gotta
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believe it's good to be seen and good to see you. Thanks for listening. Thanks for telling a friend.
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Once again, we are sipping on a juicy IPA called Weird and Gilly from Single Cut. Just the beer light to guide us and follow we did. This IPA is juicy, hoppy, tropical and smooth. ABV 6.6% garage grade four. Four out of five bottle caps. And here are some of our juicy and smooth long time listeners. First up we have Veronica Garcia and San Antonio, one of my favorite states, Texas.
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And a big we like your jib goes to Tanya in Cincinnati, Ohio.
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Next up, here's a double fisted cheers to Sarah and Lisa from South Arkansas
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and a big shout to Ally in Golden, Colorado.
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Next, a high five to Lyle and Oxford, Massachusetts. And last but certainly not least, we have a long dist cheers to Lisa Townsend over at Newcastle upon Tyne. Everyone we just mentioned, both near and far, helped to fill up the garage fridge and we say thank you.
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Yeah, B W E Double R U N Beer run. If you'd like to donate to the beer fun, it's pretty easy. Go to truecrimegarage.com and click on the little beer fun icon right there. And while you're there, sign up on the mailing list because this week we're going to be sending out a promo code to everybody. So be looking out for that colonel. That's enough of the business.
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All right everybody gather round.
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Grab a chair, grab a beer.
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Let's talk some true crime. Sadly, there is another victim in this case and that victim is the dog, Bowie. Three year old Bowie. Now his cause of death has not been officially released, but after a few months, an Atlanta Police department representative acknowledged at a press conference that he, Bowie, was taken out with a knife, stabbed. Specifically, an autopsy on an animal is called a necropsy. But whether one was done on Bowie has never been addressed by apd. Bowie's body was sent to gbi, not to the Atlanta Medical Examiner's Office. All authorities would say was that potential evidence was gathered from the victims. So notice that they used victims plural in that statement. And several news stations confirmed the APD requested the necropsy in this situation. So I. I would guess that that was conducted. And of course, that's going to be key, I think, to their investigation, because I think it's right for everyone to make the assumption that Bowie would have vigorously defended Katie if someone was attacking her.
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Yeah, I. I agree.
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And in fact, the. The other person here, Emma, told the Washington Post, quote, there is no doubt in my mind that Bowie tried to defend her. He was about 50 pounds, he had a huge mouth, and he was a fast dog. I am sure he tried his best, end quote. And that really without us circling back into a lot of the speculation and questions that we had in part one of this case, but that certainly raises those questions that we discussed in part one. Who would attack somebody walking a pitbull in a park at the middle of the night?
- [05:21]
C
Yes. This becomes very complicated for me because again, if. If you have. If this is a personal attack, then you have your victim picked out. If this is a random attack, I would think the dog would be such a deterrent that she wouldn't be a victim by a random attacker. But I think you made some good points when you're, you know, pseudo profiling the killer, that this seems like some kind of sadist in a way.
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Yeah. To me, it's the. The amount of wounds, the staying there at the crime scene, and then in particular, carving letters into the body, to me is. Again, I'm no expert, I'm no John Douglas, but it's. To me, that's indicative of what a. A sadist would do. One question that we have not seen an answer to was, again, something that we were kind of talking about in part one. Was Bowie's leash still attached when they're found? Because there are reportedly rumors that the killer took something from the scene. Now, this has never been addressed publicly. This has never been stated as fact. So I want to say this is. This is rumor and speculation for the most part, but there's so much rumor there. And you know how I am, Captain. A lot of times, if there's enough smoke, I gotta believe that there's some fire at the.
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C
Yeah, but you're malleable. I mean, you change depending on what case you're looking at.
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A
But to hear the repeated Rumor of that the killer took, that there was something missing from the scene. I want to know what that item was, if in fact there was something missing from the scene, because again, it could tell us a lot about our killer. Now, one piece of speculation that I did hear in this regard was I believe it was from and I hope I'm giving credit where credit is due. I believe it was on the unresolved podcast where the, the host had speculated if it would have been possibly the leash, the dog's leash that may have
- [07:41]
C
been taken from the scene, it would make sense.
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The other item that I wondered about was Katie's driver's license or Katie's state id. I know she was out walking that night. I couldn't confirm if she would have a driver's license or not, but she is an adult who is employ, so she's going to have at least a state identification card. And I know with some of these types that for some reason seems to be an item of importance to collect from their victim. You know, we talked about it in the with BTK Dennis Raider. That was an item that he for some reason could not resist taking from his victim or from the scene of the murders. That was an item that the Florida vampire, when we covered that case, he couldn't resist taking the driver's license of his victims.
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C
Well, men are visual creatures, so it makes sense that would, they would take a object that would have their, their photo on it to possibly relive the attack over and over in their sick twisted minds.
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And I talked about on in part one, that there are a couple of questions that I have that I, I, I am am very invested on finding out the answers to. And unfortunately, because of the state of the case, because it's an unsolved case and they're still looking for the killer, I don't know that we're going to get that information until they make an arrest or until this thing goes to trial. But one of those questions was what item was taken from the the scene and was it in fact a driver's license or state identification card? Now this is the big question for the public in general, for anybody that's reviewed this case. The $64,000 question in this case, everyone wants to know, did Bowie have someone's DNA on his teeth or in his mouth or even possibly bits of fabric or something found in his mouth like so if he defended, if he had the opportunity. Right, because we can't assume 100% that he had the opportunity to defend himself or his or Katie. But if he did, it's conceivable that he may have bit the attacker. Now, did he break skin? Did he not break skin? Who knows? But could he have had blood, skin or pieces of fabric from the, the perpetrator's clothing found on his mouth or, or in his mouth or. Or near him?
- [10:10]
C
Again, this also doesn't seem. If it's a stranger on stranger attack, it doesn seem, doesn't seem like a first attack for a murderer like this. I mean, like I said, they'd have to be pretty, they have to be pretty ballsy. You know, maybe they got a tiny pee pee, but they got big old balls. And they, and, and this, it just seems to me because they haven't releasing any information on moving of the victim or, and I know there's evidence of such, but evidence of What? Moving her 10ft or moving her 50 yards. There's a huge difference there. And so this person is very dangerous because they're, they, they will do it again. And the thrill that you're more likely to get caught or more likely that somebody seen you. And I, I have to believe that law enforcement has more eyewitnesses than they're telling us about because again, time of night. Yes, less people out, less people walking around, but this is a busy area and like you said, this entrance is not that far from an intersection. So. But it gets complicated because if the attacker was wearing black, that's not going to show up. And some of these shitty CCTV footage videos that we always see.
- [11:34]
A
Yeah. And if, if the attack and everything went down quicker than some expect or anticipate, like you suggested in part one, then that reduces the likelihood of, of an eyewitness or what any potential witnesses may have seen.
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C
Right.
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We don't know if they were able to collect any DNA. It's, it's simply we have that statement from law enforcement that potential evidence, potential physical evidence was collected from the victims, which would be suggestive that they're talking about both Katie and Bowie. Now, for those that don't know this Piedmont park is an in city 187 acre recreation space used by thousands of Atlantans daily for things like running, just getting out into to a beautiful area. Right. Getting fresh air, picnicking, Frisbee and all sorts of other things that people do in and around parks. It's Atlanta's version of Central Park. So it's a very popular place for dog walkers.
- [12:47]
C
Yeah.
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And there is a designated dog park within the park itself. There's a shake shack and other food vendors that show up during the daytime, there's yoga classes that can be seen being conducted at the park. There's a large lake at the park as well. So.
- [13:05]
C
Yeah. So after you eat your Shake Shack, you get a. Do the yoga to help it digest.
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Yeah. And I had said yesterday that because the. I had said in part one that because the bathrooms would have been locked at this point of the evening when the attack went down, that the killer could not have washed up or scrubbed up in the restroom area. But I guess that large lake provides an opportunity for that type of cleanup, if you will, after the attack.
- [13:38]
C
Yeah, again, and that would be an area that, if I was walking in a park late at night, there's probably not as many lights around certain parts of that lake. Be pretty easy to dispose of your clothes, change into new ones. And it's not that uncommon to see somebody walking around with a. A book bag on.
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Now, some of this is a little bit repetitive, but we're going to go into greater detail with the timeline and locations that are involved in the timeline of that night leading into the early morning hours when Katie and Bowie were found. So let's review that timeline and where this all went down. As we said already, Katie set out with Bowie for their walk around 10pm on July 27. We have. Unfortunately, we do not have really any clue where they walked to or from for the next 90 minutes. Approximately 90 minutes.
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C
Well, just to put this out there, I think law enforcement knows, but that's because they're passing a lot of businesses. I'm assuming that at least one of these businesses had to catch Katie and Bowie on surveillance footage.
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But where we pick up their trail is at that Henry's Midtown Tavern, the restaurant where Emma was working at that night. They stopped in to say hi to Emma. Emma has stated that she saw Katie and Bowie at 11:35pm Katie told her that she was going home after their visit. Then a security camera perfectly captured an image of Bowie walking on Katie's left side as they crossed the Pride Rainbow painted crosswalk on 10th street and Piedmont Avenue in Midtown Atlanta.
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Right.
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This photo was taken at 1209am and so we know Katie and Bowie are alive and well at 1209am according to this surveillance camera footage. And in the frame, they are alone. There's nobody else seen with them in the frame. Harry's Midtown tavern was on 10th Street Northeast, about 2,000ft. This is how close everything is. 2,000ft from the 10th street and Charles Allen Drive entrance to the park, right where Katie was found. But once Katie And Bowie crossed the crosswalk at 1209am we don't know which entrance to the park that they used.
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Right.
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We can't see that from that image. They could have walked up the Piedmont Avenue to 12th Street Northeast. There's an entrance there. They could have walked through the park. Planning to exit at Charles Allen Drive. This is. They were closer to that location when they were found. If Katie and Bowie walked into the park at Charles Allen, they would have arrived there at about 12:15. If they walked up the 12th street entrance, they would have arrived close to the Charles Allen exit, off a little while later, probably closer to 1230 because. Simply because they had to a longer walk through the park. Right now, Emma said that it was not uncommon for Katie to walk Bowie in the park, but she told 11Alive. Since I was at work, she came by, and I don't know exactly the route she would take. I noticed she did walk through the park sometimes. She wouldn't go deep in the park. She might have walked from 12th street entrance to the 10th street entrance. End quote. As we know, both were deceased by 1257 when Emma arrived at the Charles Allen gate. So we know that they're alive and well at 1209. For them to be in that location, just the speed and the time that it would take for persons to walk that distance would put them there at the earliest at 12:15 at the latest, closer to 12:30. They're found deceased at 12:57. So we don't have. Regardless of what entrance they went into, we don't have a whole lot of time that goes by.
- [17:55]
C
No. And then also by making that window smaller, I. I think the big question for the public is, well, her partner, Katie's partner, Emma, found her. And did she have enough time to commit a crime like this? I think that's the big question here. And I don't know because I couldn't find anywhere that law enforcement is definitively saying that we don't view her as a suspect.
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A
Yeah, they. They wouldn't. They wouldn't publicly clear her, from my understanding, but they've never referred to her as a suspect.
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Again.
- [18:34]
C
It's. It's tough with a case like this because you don't know how much information they're holding back and what they're releasing to the public. And is this the only. The. The footage that you said of Katie and Bowie walking across the. The Rainbow crosswalk, Is this the only image they have, or is there another one? We don't know. I don't think we're privy to that information.
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But I think what we've narrowed it down to is we're talking about a window of somewhere between 27 minutes to 42 minutes, approximately.
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Yeah.
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From the time that they're alive and well to the time that they. We know them not to be. Now, to put a little bit of an expert spin and put it under a. An expert. A person that I consider to be an expert.
- [19:23]
C
I thought you were going to talk about yourself. I was going to say don't, don't have me do it, because we both know I'm not an expert.
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I'm a Captain Cheryl McCollum, who we've met at CrimeCon. My understanding, she'll be there at this year's crime con. Anybody that's familiar with her work would, I think, wouldn't. You wouldn't have to argue too much that she's an expert in her field. So she wrote a write up about this case. She does a lot of good work out of the city of Atlanta. She did a write up on this case for Crime Online, and this is what she said there. She says, Karen Greer and I walked the scene at the exact time the murder would have occurred. And this was her observation, their observations that they made. It was dark, but the illumination from the street lights provided enough light to see clearly as you navigate your way through the park. And any witness that would have come along could have easily seen this murder. Karen Greer said, quote, you can hear people at a nearby restaurant talking and laughing, but no one reported hearing screams that night. So that brings us to the question that we were talking about for, for a good deal of our review of this case.
- [20:42]
C
Yeah.
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Do we actually have any witnesses? Eyewitnesses or ear witnesses, or both.
- [20:48]
C
Or video evidence.
- [20:49]
A
Exactly. Because Atlanta is one of those cities where security cameras are installed all over. There were, in fact, reportedly nine of them in the park that night. These were under the purview of the Department of Parks and Recreation. Shout out to Ron Swanson. One of the first things police did was go to pull the footage from these cameras, hoping that the attack on Katie and or Bowie had been captured on camera or that they could see the assailant. Maybe they could see where the, the perpetrator came from, where he went, what he was wearing, what actually happened. But what do we always end up finding when we follow this breadcrumb trail, Captain?
- [21:31]
C
We get better pictures of Mars.
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A
There was no footage.
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C
It drives me insane. Get your together, people. Get. Get your shit together.
- [21:40]
A
So not one of these cameras were working at the time the city has made some vague statements to the effect that the cameras were not operational due to outdated technology. So maybe, maybe they didn't have the ability for them to be working. I will give them credit here. I got it as bullshit. Well, but as somebody who works security for a long time, this is where I will give them some credit. This is where they do show some signs of brains here. They, they purposely left the cameras in place as a deterrent.
- [22:11]
B
Right.
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A
So that the people in the park would think that the cameras were working and be turned, be deterred from doing any type of crime or violence or anything of that nature.
- [22:24]
C
Yeah, but hold on, that doesn't do our victim Katie any.
- [22:27]
A
No, of course not.
- [22:28]
C
It doesn't have any good. And the problem, the problem I have with, with just the public in general is you. You take our money and then you don't allocate it the best way you can. And one of the best ways they could to just. Let's not have fake cameras or cameras that aren't working or out of date or whatever to be a deterrent. Let's have them actually work and let's have cameras that actually get, get us good footage and not just this grainy. Like I said, we have better pictures from Mars.
- [23:02]
A
Of course, as far as the park goes, we don't even have a picture.
- [23:06]
C
Right.
- [23:06]
A
You know, I, I'm just simply saying, and I'm with you, of course, an ideal situation would be to have these cameras. Have them new cameras had been installed and up and running and working and operational. I'm just saying, as someone that had to manage budgets and oversee security teams and property, I've gone into other properties where they've wasted money from their budget to pay to have cameras taken down that don't work anymore. Why, why pay 10 cents to do that? Just leave them up. Save that money in your budget for something else. And nine times out of ten, if a criminal, or would be criminal, spots those cameras, they will make the assumption that they're running.
- [23:53]
C
But based off what you're saying, if this killer is not a normal individual. No, you don't stab somebody and slash them over 50 some times. You don't kill a dog. You don't drag the victim. You don't do so in a, a public location. This person's sick, this person's twisted. They're not going to give a. About a camera.
- [24:17]
A
Well, and most criminals are, of course are, are not violent. Most criminals, the, even the violent ones don't even reach this level of violence. But usually we're talking about deterrence here. Most criminals will not break into a home if they think that a dog lives there, whether it's a small dog or a big dog or what have you. So this person was not deterred by the dog. If they were even aware that the cameras were present, working or not. They weren't deterred by that.
- [24:50]
C
That weren't deterred by it was a public location.
- [24:54]
A
Exactly. Exactly. Now where we do get some, some information at least that we do know that some of the cameras outside of the park were operational. We saw still photos that the APD released of we saw the still photo the APD released of Katie and Bowie taken by the camera at the pride crosswalk at 10th street and Piedmont Avenue.
- [25:22]
C
Right.
- [25:22]
A
So we know that camera is working. That was four blocks, four blocks from where her body was found. The APD found other footage that they reviewed as well, looking for any images that could be the killer entering or leaving the park or anyone who might have seen something suspicious. After all, of course, it's going to be theorized by many that, that the, the killer likely would have had to have been covered in blood, drenched in it. Most likely, yeah. One image released by the police on August 6 was of a man who appeared to be a jogger emerging from the park at 12:46am it was dark out and he was wearing a. One of those headlamp things and dark colored shirt and shorts. They, police were openly seeking this guy. Right. We want to figure out who he is. And they were being clear. They're saying this man is not a suspect. Yeah, we just want to see. We want to figure out had he seen anything or, or possibly even seen the killer.
- [26:25]
C
Yeah. The problem is, is when you want, when you're wearing one of those idiot headlights, you don't want to admit to people that you're wearing the idiot headlight.
- [26:35]
A
Well, let's, let's be nice here because this man did come forward and he, according to police, was very cooperative with investigators. And police have said he's not a suspect. And they've gone on as far to say that he did not witness the crime, but he, if he, whether he saw anything at all that was helpful to their investigation, that has not been released. Now, we should note here, Captain, that the jogger, we, we have, we have photo evidence of this. So this, this is not in dispute. It's worth noting here that this jogger ran into the entrance where Katie was found, or she's found near this entrance, the Charles, Allen and 10th street entrance, and then ran out of the same entrance just after. He's only in there for 46 seconds. He's only inside the park for 46 seconds. So. And I know you said that, that, that this may have all gone down faster than the three minutes that some. That many have suggested being the least amount of time, but I think it's a big jump to get from three minutes to 46 seconds.
- [27:49]
C
It's almost to me like he ran into the park and went, not today, not today. But also, look, I just want to, I want to admit publicly that one, I'm an idiot and two, I own about five of those headlamps and I wear them often.
- [28:08]
A
Part of the mole patrol, right, for the cartoons where they have the headlamps on, even though moles are blind from my understanding. So the headlamp makes no sense. But anyway, that's a cartoon word. So let's get back to the real world. We do know that Katie was found by Emma just 20 minutes later after this man, the jogger scene, entering and exiting the park after only being in there for approximately 46 seconds. Keep in mind, had he been the attacker, that that short little window of 46 seconds also includes like running to the spot of the attack and then running from the spot of the attack. So that shrinks the attack even, I think, I think you are spot on, my friend. Where you, you said, well, you think, well, maybe he just ran in and decided for whatever reason to quickly run back out. If you look at a map of the park and you look at the entrance in the exit that he accessed, the restrooms are right there. And what did I say earlier? We know that the restrooms were locked by this point in the evening. He very likely could have needed to go number one, ran in and he checked the door, it's locked, and just runs right back out.
- [29:19]
C
Well, look, when I go to a local bar, I walk through a park and if it's light out, it feels safe. It's a very small park, very small walking path. When I'm heading back from the bar, if I had a couple too many to drink or I stayed there a little too long, you start walking up to that park and it feels bad, it feels scary, it feels. There's no lights on in the park. It's. It would save me a five to ten minute walk. And I go, not today, Satan. I'm going a different way. And I think that's probably what happened.
- [29:59]
B
But.
- [30:00]
C
And I hate to keep throwing Emma under the bus here, but if we have this jogger on surveillance wouldn't we have Emma on surveillance too and that would be able to corroborate her story a little bit more.
- [30:29]
B
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- [35:15]
A
chronic hives come back again in the middle of the episode.
- [35:20]
B
What a wet blanket looks like another spell of itchy, swollen, red or skin colored hives. If you have chronic spontaneous urticaria or csu, there may be a different treatment option. Worried about your chronic hives interrupting our next episode? Learn more@treatmyhives.com Garage.
- [35:53]
C
All right, we are back talking in the air. Cheers to the people in the back and cheers to you, Colonel.
- [36:00]
A
Cheers to you, Captain.
- [36:01]
C
Well, and I, I don't want to keep sounding like a douche Mac with a side order of cries, but if I'm law enforcement, it's just that's your job. You have to look at her inner circle because of the time frame and because we have been able to narrow it down a little bit closer. Look, it's just a fact. Emma is finding Katie within what, maybe 20 minutes of the attack? Maybe less. Maybe within 10 minutes of the attack. So she has to become a suspect and also because of Katie's social life. And again, you said, you know, she's kind of a geeky person, which I don't think is a bad thing. I think being a nerd, being A geek diving into subjects. Maybe it's true crime. That's cool. And that's actually become one of the new cools, right, is to be passionate about things and, and to dive into them and, and let your nerd and geek flag fly. But also, she worked at a restaurant. She was a bartender. I, I hate to bring up baby Rudolph the red nose reindeer, but is there somebody in her life that was fixated on her? These are the questions I'd be asking myself initially if I'm law enforcement.
- [37:27]
A
Yes, of course. And I'm. And these are all things that they are going to ask and investigate internally, but not necessarily release to the public their findings or what they didn't find. What they did release to the public is the police released other images from cameras at park entrances showing five other people walking into and out of the park and in the crosswalks outside the park asking those people to come forward. Now, the captain touched on something right before we went to our break there about do we have Emma on camera going in or exiting the park? The key here is while we're being asked by police, were you one of these people that were captured on photo near the park entrances that night, could you come forward? Or could somebody. Could you identify someone that you're seeing in these images? Keep in mind, we still don't have information from the police where the victim entered the park that night. She's found in the park, but we don't have anything. We have no information of the police telling us, look, we have an image of her walking into the park. They just simply have released an image of her walking with Bowie crossing that crosswalk. Right now, what I can see, and it's. You can clearly see that it's Katie. You can clearly see that it's Bowie. That's not. Not problem. Not a problem. It's not the best photo. These are never the greatest of photos. You know, we talked about on, I don't know how many dozens of episodes with Delphi, had that picture just been better or a lot better, we would have gotten arrest a lot quicker than we did in that case. Now here, what I can tell from, what I can decipher from that image of Katie Jeunesse is that Bowie looks very much to me as being on a leash in that photo. For. For what that's worth, he appears to be leashed to me at that point.
- [39:41]
C
Right.
- [39:42]
A
Now back to these other photographs. Let's give a little description here. So one of the photographs that's released by police was a group of three Women crossing the crosswalk away from Piedmont Avenue park entrance at 11:55pm at 12:25am we have an image of a man with a cane who walks out of the park. He's looking down, possibly he's looking at maybe a cell phone. He walks out into Piedmont Avenue on the opposite side of the park. He's wearing white pants and a white tank top. So I can't kill her. Yeah. I can't vouch for what the man with the cane was wearing when he was in the park, but. Or. Or if he even entered the park at all. Again, he appears to be walking outside of the park, but we can say that he's not covered in blood at this point in that photograph. At 12:43, a person in a hoodie leaves the park through the same Piedmont Avenue entrance. Going off a memory here, Captain. That person, I believe, was dressed in dark clothing, which makes it a little. It's going to make it very, in my opinion, difficult to see if there's blood on this person's clothing, given the. The vantage point of that camera to where this man was standing. After releasing these photos, obviously, investigators released a statement as well, saying investigators are hoping these individuals may have seen something that could help forward their investigation. They are asking for assistance identifying or contacting them. If anyone was in the area around the time of the murder or if anyone knows someone in these photos, we ask that you contact Atlanta police, homicide investigators, or Crime stoppers.
- [41:37]
C
And maybe this is a stupid question, but when you're talking about the letters that were carved into the victim, it doesn't seem like the way you described it, that the letters go in order to spell fat.
- [41:51]
A
That's correct. Like, it's from the way that it has been described and the way that I interpreted that description, it doesn't lay it out reading left to right, F, a T. It sounds to me like these are all capital letters, because that would be the easiest way to make. Create these letters with what type of instrument, I'm assuming, made these carvings. But, yes, it doesn't lay out left to right, F, a T. It's almost like a T. And then the F is in the wrong spot without having a better way of describing it.
- [42:29]
C
Yeah. And again, we don't have. We don't have a visual of these letters, so we don't know were they. Was it clearly a T or did it look like a J? And the reason why I bring that up is because if this was a hate crime, you look at a part of a G and a T and they look. Those parts of those letters look similar. You have a line going down and across on a capital G. And so was that what the perpetrator was trying to spell out? And then by. By all indications, that would definitely define this as a hate crime.
- [43:13]
A
Yeah. And I think that. So early on in the case, from, from what I reviewed, Captain, it appeared that that was largely the speculation that, that many people in Atlanta. I'm not talking about us podcasters or people living far away, I'm talking about in the city of Atlanta. The speculation early on was that somebody was attempting to or had successfully carved the letters fag. And that would be indicative obviously of a hate crime. And I think, I think that the police and maybe the mayor was involved in this decision making. I don't know. But I think that the police felt like their hands were tied in this situation, and I think they felt forced to release the information that no, the letters were fat.
- [44:06]
C
Right.
- [44:07]
A
Without having any of us having seen that, I guess one could always argue that, well, how distinctive were those letters?
- [44:17]
C
Right.
- [44:17]
A
But it sounds to me, based off of what they have released, and keep in mind, this is a situation we can all agree on, this fact of the case, that this is an investigation, that they have chosen to release some information and chosen to withhold some information, and they're being very methodical about what they choose to release and what they choose not to release. And I say that because, to me that implies that what they are releasing to them is fact that they wouldn't go out of their way to say, no, it wasn't fag, the letters were fat.
- [44:58]
C
Yeah.
- [44:59]
A
The arrangement of those letters, certainly in some debate, but I think that they are convinced and would not say otherwise if they weren't 100% that the, the letters are fat. Now, I will say this on one of the descriptions that I read of those letters.
- [45:20]
B
It.
- [45:20]
A
It's described like that, that the, the writer, for lack of better term, may have made a miss. Like made an extra mark when trying to, to create the T. You know, you. You should have a single line up and down and then a single vertical. Sorry, single vertical line. Single horizontal line to create your capital T. Correct. And this description, it makes it sound like there were two vertical lines next to each one another and the one horizontal line at the top. So not a perfect T. Yeah.
- [46:01]
C
But that also to me goes this. If this person tried to curve the letter that maybe they were unsuccessful. But you. You normally would start a G at the top and circle back down. So I, I don't Know, it's very, very tough, but I think it's. Especially in this community, in the LGBTQ community, you. You have to look at this as a possibility.
- [46:30]
A
The police obviously closed the park to conduct a thorough investigation or as. As well as they could for their investigation of the grounds of this park. And presumably, I think, yes, I'm making some assumptions and presumptions here, but presumably you would believe that the investigators took a strong look at Katie's phone and a strong look at Emma's phone. Right. And their emails and communications. Because what you do have here with Emma being, look, nobody's openly called her a suspect. Well, I shouldn't say that. There's been plenty of speculation that people do believe that she should be a suspect. So I'm sure somewhere somebody has openly called her a suspect. But let's pretend for a moment that she is an actual suspect in this case. You have her statements. Her statement is, I attempted on multiple tries to reach Katie via phone call and text. So if you are able to collect her phone and to do a full forensic check on her phone, then you can. One thing you could. Her phone's not. May not tell you if she is the perpetrator or not, but what it will tell you, the digital forensics on it is, was she where she said she was at the time? Right. Was she. Was she where she said she was? At work? Did she leave work approximately at the time that she said she left work, according to her phone's information? Was she calling Katie from their apartment, looking for her like she said in her statement? Was she texting Katie from their apartment like she said? Because to me, Captain, if she were to have perpetrated this, these two murders, she would be in big trouble very quickly if that phone didn't match up with her statements. And if her phone did match up with her statements and she did perpetrate these murders, then that means that she had to go to the park, kill the two of them, go back to the apartment, stage some things with her phone, change her clothes, clean up, and then go to the park and pretend to find them and call 911. And we've already talked about how short of a window that is.
- [48:54]
B
And.
- [48:55]
C
And she wouldn't have knowledge of where she's going to be picked up on camera and where she wouldn't be picked up on camera.
- [49:01]
A
And if she had her phone on her person at the. The entirety of that time, her phone may indicate to investigators that she did go to the park, go back to the apartment, and then went to the park afterwards, which would make her look very, very guilty. Yeah, I think, I think if they had that information. This is why I don't love her being a suspect. One, the time frame is very small for her to have committed this murder. And two, if police had that information and that information was as I just described, I don't think that they would have any trouble naming her as a suspect and, or arresting her. Like, I, I think we would be looking at moving this thing toward trial rather than still looking for the killer.
- [49:50]
C
This is where it becomes complicated for me, because Emma is the one with her story that she brings up, find my phone. So this would have to be a very sophisticated level of criminal to go, hey, I'm going to bring up this whole find my phone angle with the victim knowing that then eventually you're going to say, well, we need to check your phone and we need to know about your phone's whereabouts. But is that a play to go, well, because I, I'm the one that committed this crime. I know where my phone was. I was the one that placed it to make it look in such a way. So by me bringing up find my phone to. To the public and to the law enforcement, then they check my phone and go, well, her phone says that she couldn't have done this, but I know that's. Again, I'm making some big leaps. But again, if I'm law enforcement, and this is not to throw Emma under the bus, because if she's innocent, then obviously she's a. She's a victim as well. And to. One, to have your partner murdered so viciously, but two, to find her. And then also you have to add into the equation their beloved dog. So it becomes she's obviously a victim if she's innocent. But I, I think if we're talking to Emma right now, she would say if she was law enforcement, this is an angle that you have to look at and you have to almost start clearing these people, your process of elimination, if that makes any sense. And then you can start looking towards the idea that it, that it was a stranger on stranger crime.
- [51:39]
A
Well, and apd, Atlanta Police Department, they're a large outfit. They're a seasoned outfit. Unfortunately. They, you know, this is not an area that only experiences one or two murders a year. They are seasoned at investigating homicides because it's a big city, like the nearest big city to us, Columbus, unfortunately, there's like 100 some murders a year. And so they're used to investigating homicides. They have resources for that. We do know that they called in the FBI, which to me, I think that, you know, there's multiple reasons why you would call in the FBI. I kind of feel like the details of the attack, the, the wounds, the carving of the letters. To me, I think that's why they called in the feds to provide a profile of the would be killer.
- [52:34]
C
Well, it might not just be a profile, but they could be calling in for assistance. And again, a type of crime like this, like you said, with the profile of how vicious this attack was in the, in the public hemisphere. Call in all hands on deck. We need, we need to catch this individual because this is a very dangerous individual.
- [52:57]
A
Well, and if it was a very. If let's say that it was not a targeted attack, that means that it's random. Stranger on stranger, violence at its highest level, most violent level. And in a public place that's terrifying when you have a city of millions of people and you. If, if this is not targeted and this is random. You're right. All hands on deck. Because this could happen very, you know, could happen again and very soon.
- [53:29]
C
Yeah, or again. It could be random, but targeted. Random in the sense it's a stranger on stranger. But this, the killer is looking for a type of victim. And this is a hate crime on some level, which I know somebody's going to say all crimes are hate crimes. Yes. You have to hate.
- [53:49]
A
I'm the one that coined that. I'm the one that coined that phrase.
- [53:54]
C
Well, we'll just spend the rest of the show patting ourselves on the back.
- [53:57]
A
Well, I'm not saying it's the best phrase ever coined, but I mean, of course, how could you not hate the person in the moment that you're killing them? And then in this case, this. Whoever. Whoever ended this woman's life didn't just kill her, attempted to deface and destroy her. That's a whole nother level. And that's why I believe that the FBI was brought in. Now, as far as statements go from Emma, circling back to what you're talking about a minute ago with her being a victim here, that on her Facebook page she wrote, today I lost the love of my life and my baby boy. It was tragic. She was the most intelligent, kind, humble and beautiful person I have ever known. I wanted to spend every second with her. He was the sweetest, most loyal companion. My heart is so very broken. My world will never be the same. Thank you to everyone who has reached out. It is truly appreciated. That's the other thing that a lot of people bring Up. Even if. If for some reason Emma would. To have been the perpetrator of this murder, would she have gone so far to kill her pet?
- [55:09]
C
Right.
- [55:10]
A
That is not. To me, that is not a necessary step in the attack on Katie unless. Unless one needed to neutralize the dog or you just have a com. A horribly evil, violent person that just wants to kill everything.
- [55:30]
C
Yeah. And I think if that was the case, we'd have more people in their inner circle speaking up and, and saying that. That Emma should be looked at. And look. And in these cases, sometimes I feel bad just for bringing it up or like when. When you have. When we have a missing child or a missing mother or father, you have to look at everybody in the inner circle. And sometimes I feel awful for bringing it up, but if I didn't bring it up, I'd be a fraud.
- [56:01]
A
And. Well, the reason why you bring it up and you have to bring it up is one, because you play the percentages. It's a discussion that needs to be had. But in this case, it goes beyond that because a lot of people got suspicious of Emma due to a GoFundMe that was set up. So somebody in Emma's family, and forgive me, I do not have the name or know the relationship of the person who set up the GoFundMe. The information I have states someone in Emma's family or a family member of Emma set up a GoFundMe to help with Katie's funeral expenses. Emma didn't help matters in this case because it's been openly reported that she used a large portion of the GoFundMe money to buy herself a condo. And she openly admits this. She told 11Alive, that news outlet she could no longer live in the area. She was afraid. And not just afraid, but saddened. She could no longer live in the area where she had shared so many memories with Katie. CBS 46 reported that Emma Clark used about 75% of the roughly $79,000 raised in the Katie Gone Too Soon GoFundMe campaign to pay for her new condo, with the rest going towards Katie's funeral service. And also there was a charitable donation made from that money.
- [57:36]
C
Yeah, but question for you. I mean, if somebody puts out a GoFundMe for the captain to make a the best bas jazz record known to man, and it raises $100,000 and it's only going to cost me $10,000 to make the best jazz bass record and jazz flute record of all time, then who's to say what I do with the rest of the money, right? Or, or is that person supposed to give that money back? I don't know how that works.
- [58:11]
A
Well, and it's coming, that money's funneled in from so many different persons and areas that it's like, how do you, how do you determine how to give that money back? Like so, for example, with the Porch Light project, we are always doing fundraising efforts to help and assist law enforcement and families in Ohio, cold case homicides and in missing persons cases, and identifying Jane and John does. Well, some of our fundraising efforts, when we, when we attempt to do DNA testing, it varies, man, depending on where we send, what lab we used, how much work they has to go into trying to identify the person, what, or identify the suspect from the, the evidence, provided that. We never know if it's going to cost 5,000 to, let's say, eight and a half thousand dollars. Well, if we do a fundraising effort for a specific case and we raise $8,000 and at the end it only cost us 6,000 to pay for everything that we set out to do, we're left over with a surplus of $2,000. So who do we, who do we give that money to? What we do simply is just apply it to the next case. So we're using it for the same efforts. It's just a different victim now. And I'm not trying to absolve Emma of any of, of what probably a lot of people perceive as wrongful doing with this GoFundMe money. But know this. Anybody that's had to. It's unpleasant to pay for and have to purchase life insurance, right? It's unpleasant to sit there and discuss and, and talk about one's own demise and how do we pay for things when the colonel passes away? And yes, this money was spit on his grave. This money was set up. The idea was that it was to pay for Katie's funeral expenses. Well, it sounds to me like those funeral expenses were covered and now there's a surplus of money. But anybody that's had to have the unfortunate conversation with their spouse, their loved ones, with purchasing life insurance, you, if you have the ability to do so, you don't just buy life insurance enough to put the kernel in the, in the, in the ground and maybe a nice little headstone above his poor little body there. No, you, you, you need to have money for the, for the living, the people that, that are, that are left. And, and unfortunately, I have had. I shouldn't say it's fortunate that I have these relationships. It's unfortunate what they've had to experience. I know people that have lost a child. Grown professional people that had their lives completely in order, had great jobs, husband, wife, spouse, what have you, nice home in a nice neighborhood, had everything going for them. And by some freak accident in this particular case that I'm thinking of right now, car accident, lost a child, a teenage child. Those persons, they were fortunate enough to have life insurance on their child. That life insurance wasn't just for funeral expenses for their child. These people could not go about their daily lives. They couldn't go to work, they couldn't function. And, and this is, and this is an accident. Emma, Emma is living in the neighborhood where the person, if, if everything she says is true, she's living in the neighborhood of the person that she loved the most that was murdered. Viciously. Forget about functioning. How are you not scared out of your mind?
- [61:56]
C
On top of that, the confusing part for me right now is did that money that she paid for the condo come from fundraisers or did it come from life, Life insurance?
- [62:07]
A
No, this, I, I'm equating this money to. As what somebody would use life insurance for. Right. She, this GoFundMe was set up, the information I have set up by somebody other than Emma and 79,000 roughly was raised for the funeral expenses for Katie. And the funeral expenses were covered. A charitable donation was made. And then 75% of the remaining money, or sorry, 75% of the total money for my understanding was used to purchase a condo which moved Emma out of the area. Right at the same time. Again, I don't want to, I, I don't want to sound like I'm have full understanding of her decision making and that I'm 100% backing her and defending her. I just want, I'm just presenting.
- [62:57]
C
But she's not lying about it.
- [62:59]
A
She's not lying about it. She's open about. I'm just presenting it some other information that, that persons who go, well, that's, that's an indicator that she murdered Katie. No, I'm just trying to present some other information that that is real life stuff that is tough stuff that none of us should have to experience that might have a better reasoning and understanding of why that money was used in the way.
- [63:27]
C
Yeah, it's a reasonable, reasonable explanation of why you wouldn't want to be in that area and not even just for your safety, but just all those moments are going to, and all those locations are going to make you remember this person that you loved and that you miss. And you could also make an argument that she didn't know that this GoFundMe was going to raise any money. And so I don't think this is something that somebody could point to as a motive because she didn't know that this money would be coming to her after the death. I'd also like to say that if I made a jazz flute record, I'd call it the Jazz Flute Goes Toot toot.
- [64:10]
A
What. What a lot of this led to, Captain, was harassment, accusatory phone calls, messages that she became a suspect in the eyes of speculating public.
- [64:24]
C
Make me feel like a salty bag of dicks.
- [64:27]
A
Well, because.
- [64:28]
C
But I think you have to ask the questions.
- [64:30]
A
But no, no, no, it's fair because until we know, we don't know. We don't, you know, it's unsolved for a reason. There are people smarter than us with far more information than us that have looked at this case, and they've not been able to solve it. So. And until we know, we don't know, everybody's a suspect. It's like one of my. One of my favorite conversations I had with the detective was I started asking him about suspect this suspect that suspect, and he said, you know what? When I show up to a murder scene, there's only two people at this point in the investigation that have been cleared. Myself and my mother. And so that's the way that this is going to be with this case until we know everybody's a suspect. Now, we do know that Emma Clark publicly asked the APD to clear her to please release a statement saying that I am not a suspect because she was receiving threats. And I believe some of these were death threats because people believe that she had killed Katie and that she was taking money and profiting from it. And the police, while they never cleared her, would not make that public statement. They did go out of their way to say, look, nobody. We've not named a suspect in this case. And it sounds like the only person that they've cleared publicly anyway is the jogger. Because we. We do have the statement of them on camera saying, the jogger, we've interviewed him, he's cooperated, cooperating with police, he is not a suspect.
- [65:58]
C
But hopefully Katie, her family, everybody that loved her, that came across her, and then also came across Little Bowie, you know, we get some answers sooner than later.
- [66:12]
A
Well, and the police are really still hoping that they're going to get some information from the public. Unfortunately, like, as. As hot as this case was when it first broke, and it sounded like police had a lot of leads Again, it was releasing pictures of person seen coming out of going into or near the park that night and then chasing down those leads. The crazy thing, though, is go back to the statements of. Of our fellow podcasters and who wrote for Crime Online saying that we walked the park at that time of night. We could hear people at restaurants nearby. We could hear cars passing. And they point out nobody reports having heard any screams that night. I just feel like this is a situation where Katie was ambushed, and before she could even scream, the attack is. Is too far in for her to. To be vocal and loud enough for anybody nearby to hear anything.
- [67:15]
B
Right.
- [67:16]
C
And there's a level of sophistication to that or luck.
- [67:20]
A
I mean, right. To me, I'm. Look, I know we. We've danced around the idea did the. Did this. Was this person, this person's, this perpetrator. If it wasn't someone known to Katie, was it their first attack? You know, is this a budding serial killer? I. I believe that. That it might be their per. If it were a budding serial killer, I believe that it might be their first attack, first kill. Because of some of the things that I'm seeing at the scene and some of the way that the. The details are described, I would be very curious if the FBI had the same assessment. To me, the carving of those letters, if it's not somebody that knows our victim, it's something that the killer could not prevent themselves from doing. Staying at that crime scene only heightens your risk of getting caught. And the longer you stay there, it goes up, it goes up, it goes up, it goes up every second, every minute that you're there. For some reason, I can't shake it out of my head that this was. Carving those letters was not only impulsive, not only shows and suggests the impulsiveness of the killer, which then could be an indicator of the killer's age. But on top of that, they. They couldn't stop them, so they had to do that. Whatever. For whatever reason, they had to do that before leaving the scene. It's almost like a. Like a pyromaniac, right? Pyros, technically, most of the time, get caught because they do not possess the ability to leave the scene. They are so sick and disturbed that they. They set the fire, and they have to stand there until the whole damn thing burns to the ground.
- [69:09]
C
But see, that's where my argument would be. If this is a serial killer, this is not the first attack, because with a number of wounds to the victim, the. The carving of the letters, like you Said broad daylight. You, you go. Is this some form of evidence of escalation? Obviously, we don't know what attacks they had before, but I would think this is somebody that got comfortable with being in an uncomfortable situation and being able to take their time. If you view that it's going to take a lot of time. This is very complex and in a very sad case. Not, you know, not just for the, the families, but the whole freaking community, you know what I mean? The, that whole area, there's probably not a day when somebody's walking to their car or walking through the park or, or how many people stopped going to the park or stop jogging through the park because they couldn't get Katie out of their mind. And then eventually people move on.
- [70:18]
A
And, and I'm no expert, but if, if I were profiling this case, the offender here, I would be, I would be telling the local authorities that I would be looking for somebody not older than 21, 22 years of age at the time of the murder, likely living at his mom's or parents house at the time, which would be fairly close to the park, in proximity to the park. If by chance he's not living with mom, well, then his residence is still fairly close to the park. If it is somebody younger than that age of 21, 22 at the time of the murder, you might be able to stumble upon your killer by finding persons that have been picked up in the park or near the park for breaking curfew shortly before or after the murder. Now, shortly after the murder, I would expect if, if police found the killer and it was somebody that did not know the victim on a personal level, I would think that if they found that killer early on, I would expect the police to find some kind of drawings that this person made for memory of both the murder scene and both of the victims, the of Katie and of Bowie the dog. The thing about this case that, that will continue to resonate is the viciousness of this murder and how heinous of a crime this was in such a public place. Was the riskiness a very big part of the thrill or part of the enjoyment for the killer? And if so, that also points to someone who's deranged, a psychopath, or someone consumed with hatred. And as for what he did to Katie, what did it all mean to him? Why fat? Why fat? Why the cuts to her throat so deep she was nearly decapitated? And why disemboweling? Why the X on her face? We don't know. And it seems like only a psychopath might know whether the answer, whatever the answer is, this guy succeeded in accomplishing his goal. He came equipped.
- [72:21]
C
He came.
- [72:21]
A
He waited patiently, or followed his prey. He was not deterred by a large dog. He moved swiftly and apparently silently. He struck before his victims even knew what hit them. He carried out his mission, his fantasy, his thrill kill. And then he slipped out of the park undetected, covered in blood in a major city with people out and about. It was the work. This is truly the work of someone very evil who still lives among us. We should point out if anybody wants to go and listen to some of Katie's music. Katie's music is still available for all to hear at soundcloud.com katie-janice.
- [73:13]
C
The episode's over and you're thinking to yourself, but I need more True Crime Garage. Well, you can sign up at Patreon or Apple Podcasts subscriptions for bonus content. Colonel do we have any recommended reading for the beautiful listeners?
- [73:30]
A
This week we are happy to be recommending FBI Diary Profiles of Evil by retired agent Peter Klismit, Jr. With this book, everyone can venture into a world where few have gone the realm of the FBI's most selective unit, the profilers. The author of this fine work of true crime was a member of the first group of FBI special agents who were handpicked for this groundbreaking, revolutionary and controversial training. Follow his path as an agent working cases in the field, or walk and think along with him as he uses the training to assist law enforcement with violent murders and other crimes. This is one of my favorite true crime books. It is FBI Diary Profiles of Evil by Retired agent Peter Klisman, Jr. You can find that great title and many more wonderful recommendations on our recommended page@TrueCrimeGarage.com
- [74:31]
C
and make sure you sign up on the mailing list until next week.
- [74:35]
A
Be good, be kind, and don't litter.
- [75:00]
C
Sam.