Las Cruces Bowling Alley Massacre ////// Part 2

Summary

True Crime Garage: Las Cruces Bowling Alley Massacre Part 2

Episode Information:

• Title: Las Cruces Bowling Alley Massacre Part 2
• Release Date: February 17, 2025
• Hosts: Nick and the Captain

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Introduction

In the second part of their deep dive into the Las Cruces Bowling Alley Massacre, hosts Nick and the Captain continue their meticulous examination of one of Las Cruces' most haunting unsolved cases. Released on February 17, 2025, this episode delves into the intricacies of the crime, exploring potential motives, suspect behaviors, and possible connections to other notorious cases.

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Recap of Part 1

The episode picks up where the previous part left off, briefly recapping the key events of the massacre. Four employees were brutally attacked in the early hours of a Saturday morning in 1990, resulting in fatalities and injuries that left the community in shock. The swift and violent nature of the crime has left investigators and the public with numerous questions.

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Timing and Execution of the Crime

Ted Danson (Host):
“One thing that I've often wondered about this case, were the gunmen waiting for 9 am to make their way into the bowling alley?... stay on top of the timing they executed this crime.” [04:35]

The hosts analyze the timing of the attack, questioning whether the perpetrators timed their entry to coincide with the opening of the bowling alley. Nick suggests that the criminals likely had prior knowledge of employee schedules, implying prolonged surveillance and planning:

Nick:
"These individuals knew what time the employees arrived. If this happened today, you could simply go back through your surveillance footage for the last couple of weeks." [05:41]

They discuss the efficiency and speed with which the gunmen executed the robbery, highlighting the possibility of premeditation and strategic planning.

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Suspects and Behavioral Analysis

The conversation shifts to the suspects' behaviors, particularly their reluctance to conceal their identities.

Ted Danson:
“The survivors... these suspects did not wear masks or gloves. Why wouldn't you just put on a frickin mask and some gloves and go in there...” [10:10]

Nick counters by suggesting that the perpetrators might have wanted to avoid masks to recognize potential threats or gather information during their reconnaissance:

Nick:
"Maybe these guys cased the joint for a while, they have been there routinely to know all the ins and outs." [06:11]

The hosts contemplate whether the gunmen had a military background or previous experience in similar crimes, which could account for their calculated approach and the lack of protective attire.

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Possible Inside Job and Motives

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the possibility of an inside job. The absence of the owner, Ronald Cenac, who was reportedly on a golf trip during the massacre, raises suspicions.

Ted Danson:
“It appears to me, judging by the set of events... these guys knew the general location of the employees.” [09:35]

Nick speculates about potential connections between the gunmen and the Cenac family:

Nick:
"If these people could identify you any way, shape, or form, then that's a motive to get rid of all of them." [10:47]

They explore theories suggesting that the perpetrators might have had a grudge or were involved in illicit activities with the owner, although no concrete evidence has surfaced to support these claims.

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Comparison with Austin Yogurt Shop Murders

Drawing parallels to another unsolved case, the Austin Yogurt Shop Murders of December 6, 1991, the hosts highlight similarities in execution and brutality.

Ted Danson:
“The Yogurt Shop was... two individuals... they were significantly younger than our suspects here in Las Cruces.” [41:07]

While both cases involve violent robberies with multiple fatalities, differences in execution and suspect profiles suggest distinct perpetrators. Nonetheless, the discussion raises the possibility of a link or shared modus operandi between the two crimes.

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Recent Developments and New Information

On the 30-year anniversary of the massacre, renewed efforts have been made to solve the case:

Ted Danson:
“Las Cruces Crime Stoppers upped the reward for information... $30,000.” [56:05]

Additionally, ABC7 anchor Stephanie Vale received a tip implicating a man identified as the younger of the two gunmen, who reportedly committed suicide in 1997. While this information offers a glimmer of hope, its validation remains pending.

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Impact on Victims and Community

The hosts poignantly discuss the enduring trauma experienced by survivors and the broader community:

Ted Danson:
“Surviving victims live in fear for the rest of their lives because they know that these two gunmen are still out there somewhere.” [55:53]

Nick adds the importance of seeking answers, even if closure remains elusive:

Nick:
"Answers are important. Knowing what happened and why it happened is important, even if they're never going to get closure." [56:21]

---

Conclusion and Call to Action

As the episode concludes, Nick and Ted encourage listeners to stay engaged with the investigation and remain vigilant for any new information:

Ted Danson:
“Las Cruces Police Department still urges anyone with any kind of information at all... please call Crime Stoppers.” [58:42]

They emphasize the significance of community involvement in solving cold cases and express hope that the increased reward and new tips will eventually lead to justice for the victims.

---

Notable Quotes

• Ted Danson:
  “Why wouldn't you just put on a frickin mask and some gloves and go in there, rob the joint, make off with whatever money you can and not hurt anybody?” [10:10]

• Nick:
  “These individuals knew what time the employees arrived. If this happened today, you could simply go back through your surveillance footage for the last couple of weeks.” [05:41]

• Ted Danson:
  “The local rumor always seems to have been that there were drugs involved or suspected drugs involved in this case.” [37:05]

---

Recommended Reading

As part of their ongoing commitment to educating their audience, the hosts recommend "The Garden State Parkway: A Cold Case Mystery" by Christian Barth. This book delves into another perplexing true crime story, offering insight into the investigative process and the challenges of solving cold cases.

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Final Thoughts

The Las Cruces Bowling Alley Massacre remains a chilling reminder of the complexities and enduring mysteries that true crime enthusiasts and communities grapple with. Through their thoughtful analysis and compassionate discussion, Nick and the Captain shed light on the multifaceted nature of unsolved crimes, urging continued public engagement and hope for eventual resolution.

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For more episodes, insights, and updates, visit True Crime Garage and follow them on their social media platforms.

Transcript

[Ted Danson]

Hey friends, Ted Danson here and I want to let you know about my new podcast. It's called Where Everybody Knows yous Name with me, Ted Danson and Woody Harrelson. Sometimes doing this podcast is a chance for me and my good bud Woody to reconnect after cheers wrapped 30 years ago. Plus, we're introducing each other to the friends we've met since, like Jane Fonda, Conan O'Brien, Eric Andre, Mary Steenburgen, my wife, and Flea from the Red Hot Chili Peppers. And trust me, it's always a great hang when Woody's there, so why wait? Listen to where everybody knows your name. Wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Ted Danson]

Welcome to True Crime Garage wherever you are, whatever you are doing. Thanks for listening. I'm your host Nick and with me as always, is a man who is actually seven, but he looks much older. He is the Captain.

[Nick and Captain]

Well, my middle name is Benjamin. It's good to be seen and good to see you. Thanks for listening. Thanks for telling a friend.

[Ted Danson]

Today we are drinking Aztec Death Whistle by Tactical Brewing Company. Tactical is brewing up some amazing beers with equally amazing beer can artwork. And this Imperial White Stout is delicious with an ABV of 9% garage grade four and a half bottle caps out of five. And cheers to our amazing Garage Army. Specifically, here's a shout out to Catherine who is feeling fahmy in Allentown, Pennsylvania.

[Nick and Captain]

And a big we like your jib. To Kimberly and Marshall, N.C. and a.

[Ted Danson]

Huge thank you and cheers to Stephen in beautiful Santa Barbara, California.

[Nick and Captain]

And a big shout out to Kerry in Goodlettsville, Tennessee.

[Ted Danson]

Next up Captain, we have Benjamin. Or as I like to say, Benjamin in Parts Unknown, most recently voted Safest City in America by Where it's at magazine. And also in beautiful Parts Unknown we have Ashley and Michael.

[Nick and Captain]

Parts Unknown was also named the sexiest city in the whole universe.

[Ted Danson]

Well, thanks to everyone that contributed to this week's beer fund. The Feeling Fami reference comes from an old T shirt that we put out after four After a four Part series titled Boys on the Tracks, which came out back in March of 2017. Episodes 93, 4, 5, and 96. All of the old episodes are available for free on the free to download Stitcher app. And all of our T shirts and other merchandise are available on the store page@true crimegarage.com and guess what?

[Nick and Captain]

That's enough of the business.

[Ted Danson]

All right, everybody gather round. Grab a chair, grab a beer. True crime. Let's talk some true crime. Captain, we went through the case and much of the details of the case and covered it pretty well yesterday. What I want to get to today is we have several things.

[Nick and Captain]

Way to give yourself a pat on the back.

[Ted Danson]

Oh, you're welcome. You know, you're welcome, world.

[Nick and Captain]

We really did a great job.

[Ted Danson]

Well, there are several things that I want to get through today and get your opinion on and kind of dissect them a little bit because there are a lot of question marks in this case, in this still unsolved case. When we went through the details, one thing that we were talking about is how fast the gunman moved and all the actions that they took to get in there, get whatever they were looking for or presumably get the cash that they were seeking out, flee the area afterward. One thing I've often wondered about this case, were the gunmen waiting for 9am to make their way into the bowling alley? We know that we have employees inside of the bowling alley and they're active and they're working at 8am but the bowling alley was not scheduled to open until 9am I wonder, with the short amount of time and given how close we were to 9:00am were the gunmen outside waiting for that 9:00 hour to hit and as soon as those doors were to be unlocked, make their way inside?

[Nick and Captain]

No, I say, I say nay, I say these individuals knew what time the employees arrived. And this crime happening in 1990, I would guess if this happened today, what you could do simply is go back through your surveillance footage for the last couple weeks, because I believe these individuals would have been there, would have been around that area, would have been casing this bowling alley for quite some time to have this information.

[Ted Danson]

Yeah, I think a couple of possibilities could be likely here. And of course, we. There's no way to know for sure until we bust these guys. Until these guys are apprehended, we may not know why they did what they did or exactly how they planned what they did. But what I think we see here is what we talked about yesterday. It appears that they already decided on the plan because they're moving very fast through the motions to get back out and to flee the area. The thing that I think that we. We might be looking at some possibilities. You know, often when these businesses are hit, a lot of times you want to hit them when they're closed because you don't want to have the added risk factor of additional people being inside the building customers. So often what these offenders will do is they will hang around outside of a place and they will wait for things that will cause the doors to be open or unlocked. You know, deliveries or employees coming and going from the building to a car. Often what an offender or robber will do is wait for someone simply to take out the trash, jump them, stick a gun in their side, out in the parking lot, and walk back into the establishment with them, take the money that they're looking for, and then flee the area.

[Nick and Captain]

Right.

[Ted Danson]

I think we could have one of two things. Either, yes, maybe they were waiting for 9am Seems like they arrived a little early to just be standing around a place that you are going to eventually rob.

[Nick and Captain]

Right.

[Ted Danson]

But if they were standing there waiting around to rob the joint, maybe they saw Steve Cenac enter and then exit the building both times without having to use a key or locking the door behind him.

[Nick and Captain]

Right.

[Ted Danson]

And thought, you know what, as soon as this dude pulls away, we're going to walk in to the place and take it over. Or maybe it was as simple as they were going to walk up and knock on the door and if the person opened up, shove a gun in their face and work their way in. To me, if it were me trying to pull this thing off, I would want to avoid that 9am when there could be additional people coming in, in and out of the building with the customers and the doors being open and the business being in operation at that time.

[Nick and Captain]

Well, maybe not so much if it was a Monday or Tuesday, but this is a Saturday. This is going to be a lot busier of a day for the bowling alley. That's why I think the level of sophistication of these criminals is very high. I'd even look into somebody that had some military background. I'd also like to know if there was a set schedule of who opened, because we know that the daughter opened up. So I'm assuming some days the daughter opened up and some days the father would open up or possibly her brother, which again, if you're two men with a gun, it's less likely of a risk that somebody's going to fight back if they're female. Right. Or if they did fight back, you have a better chance of controlling the situation. So did these perpetrators know that there was a schedule, there was a system? And that's again, that would be little things that I think you could find out if they had the surveillance footage of this bowling alley.

[Ted Danson]

Right. And just to throw a little tidbit of information in there on what you were talking about, one thing that's interesting is the owner, he, Ronald Cnac at the time he was living in the bowling alley, but he was not there that weekend. He was in, I believe he was in Arizona on a golf trip that weekend.

[Nick and Captain]

Well, I'm thinking about this. There, there possibly are people that could connect these individuals to the owner or to the bowling alley or to other people that they knew, but they're dead, so we don't have that evidence. Again, that would be more motive of why they didn't have to kill these individuals. But if you were connected to the owner, you're connected to the bowling alley. If these people could identify you any way, shape or form, then that's motive to get rid of all of them.

[Ted Danson]

Right. And then speaking to that, you know, you have two suspects according to the survivors and what we know about the case and eyewitnesses and such, these suspects did not wear mask or gloves. Right. When I look at this case, I go, why wouldn't you just put on a frickin mask and some gloves and go in there, rob the joint, make off with whatever money you can and not hurt anybody?

[Nick and Captain]

Yeah, but which eyewitnesses are saying that they didn't wear gloves?

[Ted Danson]

The survivors in the bowling alley that were robbed and shot by these two guys. And we also have Steve Cenac outside who says, you know, I didn't, they weren't in mask or gloves when he saw them either.

[Nick and Captain]

Well, no, I buy the fact that they're not again, in mask because again, maybe you know, that these eyewitnesses are going to be able to identify you whether you're wearing a mask or not. The glove part doesn't make a lot of sense to me. You'd think how militant they were that they would wear some protections because that's identifying factor is your fingerprint.

[Ted Danson]

Well, that also leads us back to a big question that we've been circling around for a portion of yesterday is could this have been some type of inside job? Okay. If these guys, either one of them had worked at this place before, they would have been busted by now. So nobody's speculating that, you know, because that's typically what you get with some of these robberies where it's a former employee and they know the daily routines and operations of that business right here. What I mean is, did we have somebody feeding them some kind of information? Because it does seem like you pointed out that the two gunmen knew some stuff about the Saturday operations of the bowling alley. Right. It appears to me, judging by what the set of events that we have during the commission of that robbery and the murders, it appears to me, based off what the survivors are saying and how things went down, that these guys knew the general location of the employees.

[Nick and Captain]

Well, let me run something by you that kind of stuck out to me, but maybe I am crazy. Well, we know I am crazy. So we have a situation where we have the employees at the bowling alley. They are all female until the brother shows up. So the brother shows up, but then he leaves. I wonder if these individuals knew that all these women are going to come in to start the day and that we have a technician that's going to come in and he's male. So once they see that this male entered the building, now all the people that are going to be there before it opens are now in the building. So then they get out to start approaching the building and he comes walking out, they go, well, now this is a lot easier because we knew that the technician coming in was male. So I'm guessing that these perpetrators believe that that was the technician, but now he's leaving. Okay, well that's easier for us. Let's walk in. Why they didn't lock the door behind them, I don't know. But again, I'm assuming that they believe that everybody was now in the building, but they just saw that guy leave and drive off and then that's why they would have been surprised by the technician showing up.

[Ted Danson]

Yeah, that's a good question. Why wouldn't they have just flipped the lock themselves?

[Nick and Captain]

But they, but that's my belief is they, they believe that the brother was the technician and he already left, so we don't have to worry about him now.

[Ted Danson]

Well, my other guess though too would be that you need a key regardless on what side of the door that you're locked on.

[Nick and Captain]

Yeah, very.

[Ted Danson]

To lock the door because you don't want some jackass kid going out there and locking your door in the middle of business, so. Or some non jackass kid for that matter.

[Nick and Captain]

Yeah, he was just trying to be safe. You're calling, you're calling them names.

[Ted Danson]

I'm sorry. Poor child.

[Nick and Captain]

Poor jackass kid.

[Ted Danson]

But, so the thing that really kind of upset me here was the. The location of the employees, right? How quickly they move inside the gunman. And then very quickly one of them knows to go into the kitchen immediate. Like they knew before they got in the building to expect an employee to be inside that kitchen working, right? And that's very troubling to me. And where I took that a step further in just really speculating and being suspicious of everyone was. I was like, shit, man. This Steve Cenac, he provides a description of this really kind of weird story, right? He described. He describes the two gunmen or the people he believes could be the gunmen. And then we never find these guys. So I wondered for a while, like, was he somehow involved if this was an inside job? Did he pull up in the parking lot that day to one make sure that the guys that were hired by whomever were there, and then he's like, oh, maybe he found the door locked, went in, grabbed his book bag and purposely left it unlocked on his way out. Then he pulls off, the gunmen make their way in. I was very highly suspicious of the Cenac family and Steve Sinek and the owner, Ronald Scene Act. Was he. Did he just happen to be out of town on the weekend that the murders took place, or was he conveniently out of town?

[Nick and Captain]

Yeah.

[Ted Danson]

Then we have the issue of Ida, okay? She was the one working in the kitchen. She gives a description that is very similar to what Steve gave, and she survived the attack from the inside and was shot several times. I don't think that it's convenient. I don't think that Steve put himself there to unlock the door for these gunmen. I think that that whole horrible, weird coincidence of the door being unlocked was just one of those weird freak things that took place. And these gunmen were going to do whatever they set out to do anyway, regardless of the. The state of the lock on that door.

[Nick and Captain]

Yeah, well, because if he would have just went out to his car again and just put his book bag back in his car and went back in. These, these murderers, they're coming in no matter what, whether Steve's there or not. Again, I think they knew how many people were supposed to be there and whether they're. Whether or not they're supposed to be male or female.

[Ted Danson]

Well, the thing too is, let's say they did have some prior knowledge, because if they did have prior knowledge, they could have been working under the assumption that there was only going to be two employees there, Right? We would have the manager, the day manager would be there regardless. Their duty is to open up the bowling alley. For the day. It sounds to me like some form of kitchen employee or kitchen staff member is going to be there on a busy Saturday prepping, regardless if it's Ida, a woman, a man, whomever. So now we got two people inside the building before nine, I think where it gets a little iffy, if you did have some intel about what would be going on that Saturday morning, is Ron Cenac, the owner, being gone out of town. That might be unforeseeable to whomever provided that information. Also, we have the two girls who were with Stephanie Cenac in the office that morning. I would bet you there's a good chance that these guys may not have anticipated one or both of those girls being there. Now, we do know that they were there to work that day. They were going to run the daycare center at the bowling alley that day. We could also presume that if they expected to be out before the mechanic arrived, his. His shift may not have started till 9. Maybe he shows up early that day, I don't know. But. But the other thing is we. They wouldn't anticipate him showing up with two daughters with him. They're not scheduled to work. Obviously, they're little kids.

[Nick and Captain]

Right.

[Ted Danson]

So they might have been surprised by how many people were at the bowling alley. I think that they were. I mean, this is seven victims here.

[Nick and Captain]

I think they were surprised by the technician. But again, the other thing that hurts us in this case is 1990, it's a bowling alley. Most of the transactions at that time would have been cash, cash money. I used to go bowling all the time, a couple times a week, and it was cash. And most people would use cash in 1990. These individuals, I believe wholeheartedly, they knew all the ins and outs. They knew this was going to take them 10 to 15 minutes. And we just have to be very a matter of fact about it. And I think they were surprised by the technician and the fact that he brought his two daughters because they knew that there was a technician. I just believe they thought Steve was the technician. These individuals probably went bowling the Saturday before, so they would have known also that there was a daycare open. But were they expecting for there to be two children with the technician? I think they were surprised by that.

[Ted Danson]

Yeah. And that. But see, that's the terrifying thing to me is that I don't feel like I can't look at anything in this case and go, okay, that's the thing that set these guys off. And then they decided to shoot all these people.

[Nick and Captain]

Oh, that was premeditated.

[Ted Danson]

Right. It's like they went in there going, no matter what happens, we're shooting them.

[Nick and Captain]

Yeah.

[Ted Danson]

You know, like, we covered the Lane Bryant case, and you can point to, oh, the perpetrator of that caught somebody on the phone with 911. We don't know for certain if that shooter would have shot them or not. But what we do know is there was a 911 call that took place and then the shooting started.

[Nick and Captain]

Right. We have no situation like that in this case. And we also don't have any eyewitnesses or any survivors saying that there was any discussion Right. Between these. These guys.

[Ted Danson]

There's no old. Two guys huddled in the corner going, now what do we do? There's seven people.

[Nick and Captain]

And that's what I'm saying. This is. This is a level of sophistication. These. These guys aren't dummies. That's also another reason why the case is not solved. These guys aren't dummies. They knew, like I said, it's step by step by step.

[Ted Danson]

Right.

[Nick and Captain]

And it didn't matter that. Now you have, again, I think, less level of sophistication, less like, again, military. Somebody that has killed before. Once those children are involved, that's a whole nother level. But as far as sick and twisted and level, a piece of shit that you have to be, that's another level. But they didn't hesitate. Oh, now there's children here. Get in the office. By the way, we're shooting you all and we're setting the goddamn place on fire. And they're setting the office on fire, not the whole building. The purpose of the fire is to get rid of the evidence and the eyewitnesses.

[Ted Danson]

Yeah, yeah. To get rid of the evidence of the men being in that office and to confuse and convolute the whole already messy situation.

[Nick and Captain]

And the thing that drives me nuts is this seems so familiar on so many levels to, like the yogurt shop murders. Again, a situation where we have all female workers.

[Ted Danson]

We're going to get into that bit of it here in a minute. And I'm glad that you brought that up, but one thing I want to make sure that I point out before we move on too far and I forget about it, is Ida, one of our survivors, the lady working in the kitchen that morning, she says, and there are a couple other people, too, and I couldn't find people by name, you know, reference by name having said this, but what I found was Ida and others have said this, that they think that they have seen these two Men in the bowling alley before and that they weren't there bowling, they weren't there shooting pool. They weren't really interacting with anybody. They were just kind of sitting there looking around. Now that would explain some of the things because you don't have to have insider information from somebody that works there, owns the place or previously worked there to get an idea of the daily operations.

[Nick and Captain]

Right.

[Ted Danson]

You can, you can go in there and you can sit around and you can go, you know what? All right, I see employees coming in and out of this room over here at this location, that must be like some kind of office or something. Oh, and over there by the bar or by the tables, I see employees coming in and out of that room. That must be a kitchen. Oh, we got this huge bowling alley, 32 lanes. And that's really where I see the majority of the workers congregating.

[Nick and Captain]

Right.

[Ted Danson]

Those are our two places to be concerned with once we come in here when there's no customers.

[Nick and Captain]

Right. And it's just like the guitar store I used to work at. Like we opened up every day at 10. So all you have to do is show up a couple times when we open. But chances are you would have seen if you got there 10 minutes early, the lights didn't even turn on until five minutes before we open. Meaning these employees haven't been there for the last hour sitting in the dark. So if you're going to rob a place like that, you wait till it opens at 10. And you also know that there's not a bunch of customers at 10 o'clock, especially like on a Monday or Tuesday. But in this case, they're there 45 minutes, roughly 45 minutes to 30 minutes earlier than the doors were supposed to open. So I mean, this is, again, maybe it's not that they're getting their intel from insider scoops, but it's them casing the joint.

[Ted Danson]

Right? And you know what? You could case the joint to figure out where the employees are spending most of their time to, to have areas to focus on once you enter the building. You don't have to even go in on a Friday night to know that they're busy. You can drive by the parking lot and see how many cars are in the thing to know that, hey, they're busy. They make a lot of money on Friday nights. Now the difficult thing here is to know that the money, that the cash from the night before is going to be in the building the morning after. That's the difficult thing because not every business operates that way. Some businesses do Night deposits after the business closes. You could follow employees after a Friday night shift and go, all right, not a single one of them went to the bank. So they're not depositing the money.

[Nick and Captain]

But that makes it more difficult when the owner lives at the bowling alley.

[Ted Danson]

Right. That. I don't know if there would be any way for them to know that.

[Nick and Captain]

You know, unless they were a former employee.

[Ted Danson]

Correct. And again, I, I really believe if they were former employees, this case would be solved.

[Nick and Captain]

Yeah. Unless there was something that the owner did that these guys had something on him, and this was like a way of them showing him, hey, we're, we're serious guys that you don't want to mess with.

[Ted Danson]

Yeah. But they shot his granddaughter and his daughter. And his daughter, even though she survived, years later, she died from the injuries from that attack.

[Nick and Captain]

Yeah.

[Ted Danson]

So it's like, I, I mean, what do you have on the guy that, that he doesn't go, screw it, I don't care what these guys have on me. I'm telling the cops everything I know because they, they, they tried to kill my family.

[Nick and Captain]

Yeah.

[Ted Danson]

And they killed little kids of people that I know. So it, you know, I, I don't really. And look, here's, here's the thing. Ronald Cnac and there's people out there that know this case really well, and they're going to go, ronald Cnac's a suspicious dude. He's. Look, he's not a likable guy. I'm not going to sit here and pretend like he's a likable guy.

[Nick and Captain]

He's your favorite.

[Ted Danson]

And, you know, we have people that in interviews say, he's not a likable guy. The police didn't like him. The police said, you know, this guy was out talking to everybody after the, after the case took place, after the shootings took place, he's out telling them stuff that isn't true. They looked into Ron Cenac. And whether you like the guy or not, at the end of the day, what we have is we have detectives saying, we looked at this dude super hardcore. We put him under a microscope, looked at every aspect of his business dealings in his life.

[Nick and Captain]

Yeah. We spread his cheeks, we looked inside.

[Ted Danson]

And we couldn't find any illegal activity. You know, the guy was not a smart businessman. He had a successful bowling alley that he ended up losing it in an auction, in a court ordered auction, I believe, less than a year or maybe one full year after the shooting. But he was not a smart business guy. He was not a likable guy. But If I really believe, dude, if he was anyhow involved in this or looking for some kind of insurance scam or whatever, that I think they would have found this because they really honed in on him something pretty good.

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[Ted Danson]

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[Ted Danson]

And basically, it's conversations I've had that really make you feel like you're pulling up a chair at an intimate dinner.

[Nick and Captain]

Between myself and people that I admire.

[Ted Danson]

Like Aaron Sorkin or Tiffany Haddish, Demi Moore, Chris Pratt, Michael J. Fox.

[Nick and Captain]

There are new episodes out every Thursday, so subscribe, please, and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Nick and Captain]

Cheers, mates.

[Ted Danson]

Cheers. Cheers. Cheers.

[Nick and Captain]

I can't stop looking at this picture of the suspects, these. These composite drawings, and just thinking, Sherman, Sherman, Sherman.

[Ted Danson]

All right, Captain. Well, I want to discuss how did these two suspects make such a clean getaway? They were basically undetected. Yes, they were seen fleeing on foot by one person. But I've often wondered, were they running to a vehicle or were they running to a nearby house or building to kind of hide out for a Little bit. One thing that we talked about when we discussed the i5 killer, and it's weird to go into the story and say i5 killer, but for those that don't know the story, the i5 killer was also a robber. And he was a very experienced robber. And in fact, sometimes he would go in and rob a place and not kill anybody. But one thing that he learned along the way in his robbery career was that a vehicle is a really good way to get detected, to get identified and get picked up and arrested for these robberies and in his case, the killings. So he learned very early on that it was not wise for him to park his vehicle near the place he was robbing. So he would often park it blocks and blocks away. Because this dude was pretty athletic, the i5 killer. He would rob the place, sometimes kill the person, and then he would flee on foot and then get to his vehicle and then drive off. I thought maybe that might be what these dudes were doing. Maybe they want to flee on foot and then make a dash for the border. But then we have a very big difference between these two different people. The i5 killer and the unknown gunman at Las Cruces. The i5 killer was wearing a mask and gloves when he committed his crimes. So he did not want to be detected or identified. Where the Las Cruces gunmen, they're not wearing mask or gloves. Then you have to take it a step further and go, well, how much do they really care if their vehicle is spotted?

[Nick and Captain]

Right. But see, again, that almost makes me.

[Ted Danson]

Think maybe they didn't have a vehicle to run to.

[Nick and Captain]

Right. But I also wonder if my theory is correct, that these guys cased the joint for a while, that they would have thought the brother was the technician. And then maybe thinking that the technician doesn't show up, everybody else shows up around 8:00. Technician shows up about 8:30. Well, we have an individual showing up in between that time, so he would have been early if he was the technician. Did that startle them? So they weren't able to put on their mask or their gloves? They went, oh, there's a technician. We got to go.

[Ted Danson]

Oh, you mean for the purpose of fleeing?

[Nick and Captain]

No, I mean that they startled them at the beginning. So before they entered the building, they didn't put on their mask or gloves?

[Ted Danson]

Yeah, I don't know. I would think if they brought mask and gloves with them, they would have put them on. Regardless of the situation. We do have a statement by the lcpd. They have stated in the past and this is pure speculation on their part as well, that they believe that the two gunmen may have had some type of help, that someone may have sheltered the two of them shortly after so they could lay low and then maybe flee the area at another time. I have a hard time believing that they just kind of hung around Las Cruces for the next 30 years because, as said, their pictures were plastered everywhere. And we have Steve Cenac saying, that is exactly what you drew. Looks exactly like the two guys that I saw. And then we have Ida backing that up. We have the other witness that says, hey, people that look like that, I saw them running from the area. What's interesting is that kind of plays a part into this next portion where a woman named Irma Tiarina comes forward at some point and says, hey, I think that the two gunmen were staying with me when they committed the crimes. She says that there were two guys, and I believe they were involved in some kind of illegal drug activity at the time that were staying with her. And when the helicopters were flying around looking for the two gunmen who fled the bowling alley, she says one of them said to the other one, we're right under their noses and they don't even know it. This is a little weird. This is a really weird portion of the story for me, Captain, because this Irma. This Irma Tia arena, she passes a polygraph. But at some point, the police, like, she recants her statement, saying that she was just looking to. I'm a little confused by her statement. It implied that she was looking for a way to score some drugs. I don't know if that meant that she was looking to provide false information to the police and hoping to collect some of the reward money. But the short of it is, she had her demons. She was involved with drugs. And it seems like quite a bit, especially around this time. I have in my notes here that she passed away in 2001 from a drug overdose. What I do know is that at some point, the police seem to be not interested in talking to this woman anymore.

[Nick and Captain]

Yeah, it could be. I mean, we've seen this in a lot of cases where somebody comes forward with supposed information, and then you find out nobody was even staying with her.

[Ted Danson]

Right.

[Nick and Captain]

These guys didn't even exist. They just existed in our head.

[Ted Danson]

Or some of the things that she's telling them they were probably able to prove were not true.

[Nick and Captain]

Right.

[Ted Danson]

And so they're like, well, we. We can't. We can't let her steer our investigation because it's nonsense. One of the things, though, too that is often mentioned in this case is that the locals. The local rumor always seems to have been that there were drugs involved or suspected drugs involved in this case, and that eventually the two gunmen fled to Mexico. And I think there could be some truth to both of those portions of the story. But a lot of that, I think, stems from the idea that Ida says that she believes from the gunman's actions that they were looking for something else in the office that day, not just the money in the safe. And the way that this portion of the story goes down is that once they're aware of where the safe is or they have access to the safe, that they still continue to look through filing cabinet drawers and desk drawers like they were all. They were looking for something else, not just the money in the safe.

[Nick and Captain]

Well, again, this kind of goes to the idea of what if the owner was doing something shady and these guys were like, hey, we're gonna come collect from you. He happens then be out of town, and then these guys, again, looking, they get the money, because maybe the owner owes them money or maybe he was going to traffic some drugs for them. And so the drugs are gone, but he's never paid them the money. So they go in there, steal the money, look for any extra drugs.

[Ted Danson]

Or these guys just hear a rumor, a bad rumor that's not true, that the place is full of drugs.

[Nick and Captain]

Right.

[Ted Danson]

I mean, that. That does happen a lot. I mean, we got the. The whole Clutter family was murdered because they thought $10,000 was somewhere in that house, and there was no money in that house.

[Nick and Captain]

Yeah. Or they're looking for money, but they're looking for something else of value that isn't drugs. But again, a rumor by somebody.

[Ted Danson]

Well, that's where I bring in RJ Cenac. He's another son of Ron Cenac, and he's a known drug user. In fact, he passed away from a drug overdose as well. And I believe this was in 1997 or 1999 seems to stick out. But it was in the late 90s. He was a known drug user, and I believe he was. He was known to have maybe even dealt drugs. He worked at the bowling alley in some form or fashion. Most reports say, state that he was a bartender. Now, obviously, he was not working on that day, on that Saturday when the place was robbed and these poor people were shot. But then you have to take it a step further. Is that. Does that become the genesis of this bad rumor? Or is RJ out there telling people on the streets stuff that's not True. Or was he. Did somebody know that he was actually running drugs out of there, selling drugs at the bar, and then they go in there looking for said drugs and this money from the safe? Then I want to go to what you referenced earlier here, Captain. The Austin yogurt shop murders. We covered those in episodes 81 and 82 in 2017. When we covered this, I was amazed at how many people told me they have always wondered if these two cases, these two absolutely horrific crimes, if they were possibly connected. The yogurt shop murders is an open homicide case in Austin, Texas. This took place on a Friday, Dec. 6, 1991. So less than two years later, a very similar crime. And what do I mean by similar crime? At a yogurt shop in Austin, Texas. The store was robbed, the girls, there were four of them present were brutally attacked, and the building was set on fire afterwards. All four killed. Again, it's a no. 1 spared situation.

[Nick and Captain]

One of the big difference, though, was they were robbed at night. Right. And this was rob and mourning.

[Ted Danson]

Correct. And we also have the. I mean, they. They were subjected to rape and all kinds of attacks.

[Nick and Captain]

Yeah.

[Ted Danson]

Where the Las Cruces situation is much different, where the guys, the robbers killers, were in and out rather quickly.

[Nick and Captain]

But wasn't there a eyewitness that saw some guys in the yogurt shop earlier that night that possibly had army fatigues or.

[Ted Danson]

Well, that's the thing. We really did our best to try to lock in on two very. Who we believe might have been the suspects. And they were two individuals that were spotted in the yogurt shop just before closing time that have never been identified. Everybody else that entered the yogurt shop that night, as far as we know, that were seen by other customers have been identified to this date, except for these two guys. The descriptions of these two guys would make them significantly younger than both of our suspects here in Las Cruces. And this case took place, as said, after Las Cruces. So that doesn't really track. But one thing I wanted to look at real quick was the holdback information. Now, what is holdback information? Holdback information is what the police will hold back so that the public doesn't know about this in case they get false confessions or. Or if they get people that they think are serious suspects, information that they can try to pull out of them to make them even stronger suspects. Things that only the perpetrators would know about the crime. And the yogurt shop, they held back 13 bits of information. Now, we know what this is because eventually this did go to trial. That whole thing is a mess. Long story short, it's still an unsolved case. But let's go through this real quick because I wanted to compare it to Las Cruces. Here are the items that they held back at the yogurt shop. One, how and where the fire was started. Well, we know that in Las Cruces bowl, the key to the front door. That's interesting, because I would think that the detectives would want to have held back the information that the gunman found the door unlocked at the bowling alley. That wouldn't have been. People in the public wouldn't expect the door to be unlocked. It was closed. The business wasn't open yet.

[Nick and Captain]

Right.

[Ted Danson]

How much money was taken? I think that what we have here at Las Cruces, that they have held that information back. All the reports state 4,000 or 5,000 or somewhere between 4 and $5,000 was stolen from Las Cruces.

[Nick and Captain]

And I'm guessing that they're getting that number from what they think the business probably would have made the night before. But we have no way of knowing how much business, how much cash the business left on hand, or how much cash that the owner stored of his own cash in the cell safe because that's where he was living.

[Ted Danson]

Well, we have the day manager there, there doing the books. Had she already gone through everything from the night before and counted all the money.

[Nick and Captain]

Right.

[Ted Danson]

They would know how much was missing. Now, the rumor has always been that they didn't take all of the money. And which has always been weird because sometimes it's reported that they left some of the money in the safe, they didn't take all the money from the safe. Or they didn't take all the money from the bowling alley, which again, maybe they already loaded one of the registers and they just didn't check the register before they left. Regarding all of the money in the safe, one thing I've always wondered about that, Captain, because people will point out, well, that is proof that they were looking for something else. I do believe they were looking for something else. I don't think if they left money in the safe, it's proof of such. Especially if the one portion of the story is true, where the girls, where they put the victims in charge of loading up the briefcases, made it maybe just out of fear or panic, they.

[Nick and Captain]

Forgot one of the areas that there was cash.

[Ted Danson]

Yeah, exactly. Or they were startled by Steven Taron, who came in unexpectedly.

[Nick and Captain]

Yeah, possibly. Or it's a situation. I mean, look, I know it's Hollywood, but You watch the town, you watch Point Break. Sometimes those guys have timers. After this timer goes off. Now we're moving on to the next thing, no matter where we're at in the process.

[Ted Danson]

Right. There are several items on this list of 13 that may not pertain to what we have here at Las Cruces. A lot of the holdback information at yogurt shop had to do with the bindings that were used to tie up the girls and also some of the injuries sustained to the victims. But we don't have. As far as we know, the victims here weren't tied up. And it doesn't appear that they unleashed any kind of violence on these victims before shooting them. So that may not have any relevance in this case unless they did. And that is part of the holdback information in Las Cruces. But we also have one interesting thing here. There were diff2 different caliber of guns used in yogurt shop. And it's believed that there were two guns used in Las Cruces bowl as well. We have reports that one of them was likely a.22, but never any reports of the other caliber of guns. So maybe that's a portion that has been held back. There's also a couple of references here. Out of the 13 items in Austin yogurt shop of additional items that was taken from the shop that that was not money. So you have to wonder, was there anything else taken from the bowling alley that has been held back from the general public?

[Nick and Captain]

Well, as fascinating as I find this case and as fascinating as I find the Austin yogurt shop murders, and if you haven't listened to those episodes, you should check those out. I really think it's that there's a control here in this one. And is it possible that these individuals robbed multiple places and started losing control as they went on? Because this happened in the 1990 yogurt shop, I believe was 91. So did they lose control as they went? I just. I view them as different things. I really feel like the yogurt shop murders, it was a lot more chaotic.

[Ted Danson]

Perpetrated by different kind of monsters.

[Nick and Captain]

Yeah.

[Ted Danson]

With different agendas.

[Nick and Captain]

But that doesn't mean that. But to me, somebody that has this much control is capable of doing this time and time again without almost any fear of being caught.

[Ted Danson]

Yeah. So one article that I found that I thought was really intriguing. Captain, this was from the Associated Press in December of 1990. In fact, it was December 19th of 1990 where they were talking to Fred Rubio. He's the Las Cruces police captain, the head of the department's detectives at the time. And he's talking about, you know, hey, I would hate to leave this profession without being here when they solve this. I love the optimism of when they solve this. And he says, this case still haunts us. Now, at this time, we're talking, it's only 10 months old. But he says we're not used to having unsolved mysteries here in this city. And that is intriguing because not only is he referencing that, hey, the case was covered on Unsolved mysteries, But remember, in 1989 they only had two homicides. And I didn't go through the entire year of 1990 to figure out how many homicides Las Cruces had in that entire year. But what I did find was two interesting things. By February 16th of 1990, Las Cruces, the city of Las Cruces, had seven homicides by February 16th, where the year before, two for the entire year. Now, of course, we know that four, unfortunately, four died on February 10th of 1990.

[Nick and Captain]

Right.

[Ted Danson]

That leaves three other homicides. We actually mentioned one of the other ones earlier in our coverage of this case. There was a man that was stabbed and he was found at 2:30 in the afternoon, the same day as the shootings. They solved that. They found the guy that did that. So there's one that's down. There was a stabbing that took place on February 16th where, unfortunately, a victim died. They located the perpetrator of that murder very quickly and apprehended them. What we have here is almost at the end of 1990, on the 19th of December, Fred Rubio says we only have two homicide cases for the entire year of 1990 that remain unsolved. That is the Las Cruces Bowling Alley massacre and a gas station robbery that took place in January.

[Nick and Captain]

Well, what's that case called?

[Ted Danson]

All right, Captain, let me run this by you and you let me know your feelings here. This is from an old Crime Stoppers article. It says that they are looking for information leading to the arrest and prosecution of the persons involved in the robbery homicide that occurred on January 14, 1990, at Ray's Shell Station, located at 2417 West Picasso in Las Cruces. The Las Cruces Police Department was called to the scene at approximately 10:04am where they found the attendant, Salvador Lozano, lying face down in the office area. Further investigation revealed that the victim had been shot one time in the back of the head. The victim's hands were tied behind his back. The caliber or type of Firearm used has not yet been determined. Investigators believe there was more than one person involved in this robbery murder. Investigating officers have been able to determine that a robbery did take place prior to the victim being shot. And I'm going to go off of article here for a second. I did some further snooping and found that it's believed that approximately $500 was stolen from the gas station before this man was murdered. And then they go on to say, anyone with information please call the Crime Stoppers or call the New Mexico State Police. So what I'm going, where I'm getting at here, Captain, is that 30 years ago, these two crimes took place less than a month apart in time. The distance between these two businesses, both located in Las Cruces, is 3.2 miles from one another. They both took place on a weekend day in the morning. This was on a Sunday at 10am well, they found the victim at 10am this could have taken place at 8:30 or 9am but we have Las Cruces bowl that took place on a Saturday. And we know that the murders were committed before 8:30 on that day. There seems to be a lot of similarities here where they're shooting unnecessarily, shooting the person who is attending the business that they are robbing, shot in the back of the head. More than one offender, both still unsolved after 30 years, not just the two unsolved homicide cases from 1990.

[Nick and Captain]

Well, definitely some very interesting similarities in those cases.

[Ted Danson]

You almost have to wonder if either police have reason to believe that they're not connected, proof that they're not connected and we just don't know about this, or is this a situation where the gas station was not that big of a score? $500 roughly. And you have to wonder, were they looking for a much bigger score and thought that Las Cruces bowl could be what they were after. Not just the money in the safe, but maybe some kind of drugs or a large quantity of narcotics are on scene as well. And then this horrific crime, multiple murders on the same day, and now it's just too. The heat has been turned up. They got to get out of Dodge. It's. It's a tricky situation because you want both of these crimes to be solved. And then you sit here and wonder, is it the same perpetrators and that's why neither of them have been solved for 30 years.

[Nick and Captain]

Again with the evidence being destroyed with the fire. These individuals, what we do know is how vicious they are. And you would think they are so vicious over even such small amounts of Money that they would eventually get caught.

[Ted Danson]

Yeah. Yes. End up in prison for some other offense or even some other murder. We do have some new information that came out recently and this is very interesting. And I, and I hope and pray that this goes somewhere somehow because we still have people that are hurting very bad. And here's the other thing you got to keep in mind too, when we talk about there is no real closure in these cases. And that is absolutely true. And victims and family members of victims will tell you there is no real closure in these cases. But one thing that I think is important to bring up here, when you have a situation like this where you have multiple people, multiple victims, some of them did not survive that day. And some of them did, unfortunately, the ones that were lucky enough, if you want to call it that, lucky enough to survive that day, they live in fear for the rest of their lives because they know that these two gunmen are still out there somewhere.

[Nick and Captain]

Or could be out there.

[Ted Danson]

Yeah, could be out there somewhere. So when we talk about no real closure, that might be some pretty significant form of closure for our surviving victims.

[Nick and Captain]

Well, we hear a lot that, that the family deserves answers. And answers doesn't always mean closure. But answers are important. Knowing what happened and why it happened is important, even if they're never going to get closure.

[Ted Danson]

Yeah. Because you can't bring people back. And that's the, that's the sad, sad truth. But we've had the 30 year anniversary, I guess if you want to call it that, it's been 30 years since these murders took place. And that was of course, in February of 2020. And we wanted to cover this. Ideally we would have covered this right around the anniversary, but we were busy doing our Shaker Heights project at that time and it couldn't, couldn't be put off any longer. So here we are now, Captain. And I'm kind of glad that we waited a little bit because we wouldn't have had this little tidbit of information had we done this case back in February. So what happened was on the 30 year marker we have Las Cruces Crime Stoppers upped the reward for information on the ID of the possible suspects. This is to $30,000. And around the same time we have ABC7 anchor, her name is Stephanie Vale. She said that around the 30 year anniversary she received a call from a woman originally from Las Cruces who gave her the name of a man the tipster is certain is the younger of the two attackers, the younger gunman. She claims that his family knew or had a decent idea that he committed the crime, but remained quiet about it all of these years. This man that she is implicating killed himself in 1997. We will see if this comes to be what comes of this information. I'm sure we'll find out here, hopefully sooner rather than later. The Las Cruces Police Department still urges anyone with any kind of information at all, no matter how seemingly insignificant, to please, please call Crime Stoppers at 1-800-222-8477.

[Nick and Captain]

Thanks for listening. Thanks for joining us. In the garage Col. Do we have any recommended reading this week?

[Ted Danson]

Capt. I am very excited to recommend to the good Garage people an incredible book. This is one of, if not the best true crime book of 2020 so far. The book is called the Garden State Parkway A Cold Case Mystery by Christian Barth. The Garden State Parkway Murders is the true story of two college friends who were brutally knifed to death and their bodies left off the parkway. The author identifies several suspects, including infamous serial killers Ted Bundy and Gerald Stano. This wonderful book is the result of nine years of nose to the grind investigative research and it's out of Wild Blue Press, a premier publisher of true crime books. So you know it's good. Check out the Garden State Parkway Murders and other titles on our recommended [e-mail].

[Nick and Captain]

Yeah, and with the holiday next week, we will be off. We have we'll still have off the Record, but we have something very exciting for you. So make sure you're following us on Twitter or Instagram or Facebook because next week there'll be some very exciting things happening with the Garage.

[Ted Danson]

We are going to be hot and heavy. As they say, hot in the hot tub. If you're not following True Crime Garage, make sure you get that started today. You don't want to miss out on next week. Everybody have a great, safe and wonderful 4th of July. Until next time. Be good, be kind and don't litter. Hey, I'm journalist Sam Sanders. I'm poet Saeed Jones. And I'm producer Zach Safford.

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And we are the hosts of a podcast called Vibe Check.

[Ted Danson]

On Vibe Check, we talk about everything, news, culture and entertainment and how it all feels. That's right, we talk about any and everything on our show, from real life issues like grief to music and movie critiques. And that barely scratches the surface. Yes, indeed. And it doesn't stop there. We have got a lot to say, so join our group, chat, come to life, follow and listen to Vibe Check. Wherever you get your podcasts.