True Crime Garage – MindHunter /// Dr. Ann Burgess

Episode Date: September 17, 2025
Guests: Dr. Ann Burgess (pioneer in criminal profiling, inspiration for Mindhunter's Dr. Wendy Carr); Stephen Constantine (co-author, "A Killer by Design")
Main Theme:
An in-depth conversation with Dr. Ann Burgess and Stephen Constantine about the birth of criminal profiling and the new book "A Killer by Design", exploring Dr. Burgess’s groundbreaking contributions to victimology, early FBI profiling, and behind-the-scenes stories that inspired the hit series Mindhunter.

Episode Overview

This episode is a rare deep dive into the origins of the FBI’s Behavioral Science Unit through the lens of Dr. Ann Burgess — the real-life inspiration for Mindhunter’s Dr. Wendy Carr. Hosts Nic and the Captain are joined by co-author Stephen Constantine to discuss Burgress’s journey from nursing and sociology into the heart of Quantico, the evolution of psychological profiling, and how these efforts forever changed the investigation of violent crimes. The episode also highlights the new book, "A Killer by Design," which blends true crime storytelling with the history and methodology of profiling.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Dr. Ann Burgess’s Journey & The Origins of Profiling

• From Nursing to the FBI (03:27 – 06:24)

  • Dr. Burgess’s expertise began in nursing and academia, focusing on victims of rape alongside colleague Linda Lytle Holmstrom at Boston College.
  • They conducted a major study on rape victims arriving at Boston hospitals, producing seminal papers, most notably "The Rape Victim in the Emergency Room" (1973) and originating the concept of "rape trauma syndrome".
  • Notable quote:

    "We were called every time a rape victim came in. And we went right in at the time and we followed the victim. So that was over a one-year period. We saw 146 people between the ages of 3 and 73. And that made up the basis, if you will, for the study."
    — Dr. Ann Burgess [04:09]

• Transition to FBI – The Behavioral Science Unit (06:21 – 08:16)

  • The FBI, pressured to improve rape investigations due to the women's movement, found Burgess through her published research.
  • Roy Hazelwood, tasked with teaching rape investigation at the FBI, personally recruited Burgess after a police officer recommended her article.
  • Burgess contributed not just knowledge on victimology, but brought much-needed structure and research methodology to the fledgling profiling effort.

• The Beginnings of Profiling & the Mindset of Serial Offenders (12:46 – 14:28)

  • Burgess and her team began studying 36 killers, establishing "sexual homicide" as a homicide category.
  • Profiling transitioned from anecdotal, word-of-mouth practice to documented, research-driven methodology, largely thanks to her organizational rigor.
  • Notable quote:

    "Thoughts drive behavior. And that's what this was all about, is to try to find out what the thoughts were."
    — Dr. Ann Burgess [14:05]

2. Behind the Book: "A Killer by Design"

• Co-author Perspective (Stephen Constantine) (15:53 – 17:00)

  • The book aims to merge case studies with the larger arc of how profiling was founded and the cultural opposition it faced, spotlighting Burgess’s unique perspective as a pioneering woman at the FBI.
  • Stephen describes Burgess:

    "She's able to share her knowledge in really easily accessible ways, which is very helpful for writing the book...telling it from her perspective as one of the few women that was in the FBI at that time and...that larger cultural context is really unique."
    — Stephen Constantine [16:00]

• Real-World Impact of Burgess’s Work (17:00 – 19:19)

  • Host Nic credits the Crime Classification Manual (co-authored by Burgess) and other foundational texts as "the most useful reference materials" for true crime enthusiasts and professionals alike.

3. Life Inside Quantico & Changing the Culture

• First Experiences at Quantico (19:19 – 22:31)
  • Burgess recalls her first lecture to an all-male FBI group, the nervous car ride to the remote academy, and the high-tech teaching environment.
  • Memorable insight:

    "I ended up not obviously asking them any questions because I really didn't want to know if they knew the answers. But it turned out to be very positive...I really felt comfortable and felt like if they asked me again I certainly would do it."
    — Dr. Ann Burgess [21:24]

4. From Reality to Mindhunter

• On Being Fictionalized (24:29 – 27:30)
  • Burgess first learned of Mindhunter after receiving interview requests, then had to watch the series to see how it portrayed her and her colleagues.
  • She found the depiction of the actual investigation largely accurate, but objected to the dramatized personal lives.
  • Notable quote:

    "What I didn't like is...the way they portrayed our backgrounds of the three of us. They, they couldn't have gotten them more wrong...the work that you guys were doing and, and the cases...were so exciting in their own [right] that I don't think it was necessary to dress that stuff up."
    — Host Nic & Dr. Burgess [26:30]

5. The Mechanics of Profiling & Its Spread

• Profiling Sessions and Methodology (28:47 – 32:55)

  • Burgess details the collaborative crime scene analysis sessions, how profiling reports were generated, and her commitment to publishing methodologies for law enforcement and academic audiences.
  • She recounts the detective-driven, often informal early profiling ("so focused on the car"), which she helped professionalize.

• Bridging FBI and Local Law Enforcement (32:55 – 34:11)

  • Local police had been practicing crude profiling for years; the BSU formalized the process and gave police departments more effective, organized tools.

6. Case Study: The Joubert Murders

• First Chapter of the Book – John Joubert Case (33:14 – 40:38)

  • The book opens with the unsolved murder of 12-year-old Danny Eberle in Nebraska. The investigation gains traction only after FBI profiler Bob Ressler is called in.
  • Profiling correctly narrows the suspect down to a member of the nearby Offutt Air Base, leading to Joubert’s capture. This case catalyzed acceptance of profiling in law enforcement worldwide.
  • Cooperation between agencies, dedication to victimology, and analytic rigor are highlighted as transformative.
  • Dr. Burgess:

    "When the second profile, Bob changed his profile to where he was even identifying that he thought this was an airman off of Offutt Air Base...he even got it to where I think the only thing he was off was was it [an] airman third class or an airman fourth class? I mean, he was that close."
    — [35:23]

  • The case also spawned methods for post-conviction suspect interviews, furthering research on offender psychology.

• The Enigma of Serial Killers’ Motivations (40:38 – 41:25)

  • Joubert and others interviewed often claimed not to understand their own compulsions.
  • Notable quote:

    "That's a characteristic of many of them—that they don't know why...Monty Rissell in the Mindhunter series...says, 'Well, I hope you find out why I did it, because I don't know.' And that was so classic for many of the serial killers. They didn't know."
    — Dr. Ann Burgess [41:00]

7. The People Behind the Science

• Dedication to Colleagues (41:26 – 45:40)
  • Book is dedicated to Linda Lytle Holmstrom, Roy Hazelwood, and Bob Ressler—each played critical roles in shaping Burgess’s work and early FBI profiling.
  • Burgess honors Holmstrom:

    "She really got me into this whole field of victimology...She was schooled in the Chicago way of doing sociology, where you took very specific, copious notes on everything when you're doing an interview."
    — [42:00]

8. Serial Killers, Pop Culture, and Making a Difference

• Changing Perceptions (45:46 – 47:09)

  • Constantine emphasizes that in the 70s and 80s, serial killers were dismissed as irrational outliers; the Behavioral Science Unit legitimized serious study, shaping not just law enforcement but also modern culture's obsession with the topic.
  • Constantine:

    "...today this concept of serial killers is just sort of a cornerstone of pop culture...But back then, nobody had interest in them. There was very little attention even paid to them...for the BSU to actually say there's something deeper here...that was incredibly innovative."
    — [46:00]

• A Book for Fans and Professionals Alike (47:09 – 48:47)

  • The book covers both famous and obscure cases (Ed Kemper, BTK, Ski Mask Rapist, Taco Bell Strangler), making it a compelling read for those craving more Mindhunter-style storytelling.

• Will There Be Another Book? (48:26 – 48:47)

  • Stephen Constantine teases the possibility, pointing to a wealth of saved transcripts and research material for future projects.

Notable Moments & Quotes

• "They bring you in because they are now transitioning...to learn and research why does this stuff happen and who commits these. But to have a good understanding of that, we also need to have a really good understanding of the victims as well."
  — Host Nic [08:16]

• On Mindhunter’s accuracy:

  "I was very pleased to see that they got most of it right. In terms of what actually happened, that really came through...What I didn't like is...the way they portrayed our backgrounds...they couldn't have gotten them more wrong."
  — Dr. Ann Burgess [25:55]

• On the importance of publishing and note-taking:

  "It was first called the Criminal Personality Project...we wanted to do more than one type of criminal. And we actually started out with the serial killer...But also, they were just starting a more organized way of doing profiling."
  — Dr. Ann Burgess [07:13]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:27] – Early academic career & transition to studying victimology
• [06:21] – First contact with the FBI, Roy Hazelwood and the Boston study
• [12:46] – The need for scientific structure within the BSU
• [19:19] – First impressions of Quantico & FBI culture
• [24:29] – Reaction to "Mindhunter" dramatization
• [33:14] – The Joubert case and impact on profiling’s legitimacy
• [41:26] – Dedication to inspirational colleagues
• [46:00] – The lasting impact of profiling on pop culture and crime-solving
• [48:26] – Discussion about future books and material

Final Thoughts

This episode is essential listening for true crime enthusiasts, criminal justice professionals, and fans of Mindhunter. It provides rare insight into the interpersonal, intellectual, and institutional struggles behind one of the most significant developments in modern law enforcement. Dr. Ann Burgess’s humility, relentless curiosity, and groundbreaking work shine through every story, making this conversation both informative and deeply inspiring.

Book Highlighted:
A Killer by Design: Murderers, Mindhunters, and My Quest to Decipher the Criminal Mind
By Dr. Ann Burgess & Stephen Constantine

For more:

• Listen to further episodes of True Crime Garage
• Read A Killer by Design for the full, inside story of the birth of criminal profiling