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Missing Interviews True Crime Garage /// Part 2
01:05:08
Missing Interviews True Crime Garage /// Part 2 Part 2 of 2 Nic and the Captain sit down to talk True Crime with Tim and Lance from the podcast Missing. www.TrueCrimeGarage.com
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- [00:08]
Nick
Welcome to off the Record. I'm your host, Nick.
- [00:13]
Captain
It's good to be seen and it's.
- [00:15]
Nick
Good to see you off the Record.
- [00:18]
Captain
Thanks for listening. Thanks for telling a friend.
- [00:20]
Tim
True Crime Podcast.
- [00:22]
Nick
Be good, be kind and don't let gather round, grab a chair, grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime.
- [00:33]
Tim
Welcome back to Missing. I am Tim here today with Lance. Lance, how are you today?
- [00:37]
Lance
I am doing fantastic today, Tim. I hope the listeners out there are doing fantastic as well. And Tim, I hope you're doing fantastic. I know the two guys that we have on this part two episode, I know they started off a little apprehensive because Captain was nervous to talk to you because he was afraid that you were still mad at him. But Tim, are you still mad?
- [00:57]
Tim
I am not and I have not been holding any kind of grudge against Captain. But so yes. This is part two of our two part conversation with Captain and Nick of True Crime Garage. First half, we talked a little bit about Maura Murray's disappearance from North Haverhill, New Hampshire in February of 2004. And in this conversation we speak a little bit about the disappearance of Brian Schaefer from Columbus, Ohio. And he went missing in April of 2006.
- [01:32]
Lance
And this is an extension of the conversation that we had with Captain and Nick when we visited them in the garage. In the proverbial garage, it was more like a kitchen table and then a studio, but the overall arching concept is the True Crime Garage. So it was refreshing to hear their thoughts on Brian's disappearance today and how these details have come up in the meantime and how they've had to adjust and go along with the realities of what comes with a missing person. You know what I mean? Because in the beginning you're talking about a missing person and they start to appear one way in your head and you don't realize, hey, maybe they had these circumstances going on in their family or their friends or their romantic life or something like that. So revisiting this conversation a few years later after visiting with them in person was again, very refreshing and very revealing.
- [02:29]
Tim
Okay, so we hope you enjoy part two of our conversation with True Crime Garage. Make sure to check out what they're up to@true crimegarage.com and follow us on social media at Missing CSM. We're going to take a quick break here for commercial and we're going to be right back with Captain and Nick.
- [03:04]
Captain
We have a timeline of the case, but the most important timeline of Brian's is from like let's say 12 to 2 on the night he goes missing. And then you have the pre timeline and then you have the post timeline of when he goes missing, but you don't even know if those matter or not. You know, you, you find out that maybe he had a homosexual relationship with one of his friends. You find out that, you know that he had more conflict with his dad than his dad was leading on to believe you. You find out that the dad had no alibi. You found out. You find out that police actually took cadaver dogs to Brian's dad's house. And you go, does that mean something? Does it mean nothing? Is it, you know, it makes for a better story, but. Or did Brian at 2:00 just run into the wrong person and that has nothing. Now, the pre timeline and the post timeline mean nothing to the case, but we obviously don't know that because we don't have any answers.
- [04:12]
Tim
Yeah, I think sometimes, and this is speaking for, for me and Lance's journey real quick, I think sometimes when covered, the culture of a case as well as the case itself, sometimes it blends a little bit in, I guess, an incorrect way to where you think like, well, this person has a theory for you almost make assumptions on why people are pushing narratives. And, you know, a lot of times there's. There's no reason that they just. That's just what they believe. But I do want to get into Brian Schaefer a little bit more. Can you, can you tell us a little bit more about this case? I know Lance and I appeared on in the Garage a few years ago to speak about this case, and it's very memorable experience for us.
- [04:56]
Captain
So there's a handful of cases that if somebody reaches out to me, I will talk to them anytime, because I know enough about the case that I don't have to take down notes before I call the person, you know, so in Brian's case being one of those. And. But so recently I was reached out to this lady, I won't name her because I, I never asked her if that was okay, but she got 10 hours of footage of the night Brian goes missing. And so she's been setting up a. Basically dissecting the video footage. And in a very fascinating way, this is when Brian showed up. This is when other individuals showed up. This is when other individuals left. But before she actually got this footage, she had two pictures that she believed were of Brian walking down the steps. In the last picture, he would have been, I don't know, five feet from the front door. So to Me, that would have definitively proved that Brian left through the front door. And. But again, it's all narrative. So when. When we first talked to the lead detective Hearst, he made it seem like there was a team of detectives that went through this surveillance footage and that they were able to account for every individual on the footage. You then find out, well, it was one detective that did that. So again, I'm not questioning, you know, I'm not questioning his integrity or how hard he worked on it, but if you tell me 10 people examined it and then we figured this out, that holds more weight than, well, one individual when he was not on the clock, you know what I mean? Like, in his free time, this guy was going over the surveillance footage. So I think there's more information that we can learn. And so this individual that we thought could be Brian, with further examination, we don't. We don't believe it's Brian. We. We. We think we know who it is in the video. We don't have that individual identified. But because of just that work, this individual was able to get 10 hours of surveillance. But it's only one angle. So I do believe if we can gather more information and gather more things of this video footage that are fascinating, that maybe law enforcement will give us another angle of the surveillance that night.
- [07:49]
Lance
And you know that there is another angle.
- [07:52]
Nick
Well, that's a good question, Lance, and a fair question at that. You know, I work high rise security for several years, and we, at that facility, we had 30 cameras that were running at all times. Now, which ones we were recording on were actually 16 cameras. So while you could monitor as many as 30, we were only recording on 16 at one time. Now, some of those. Some of those recordings would be scrolling through a series of cameras. So it gets mean. Every system is different, Every system is unique. But I. But the captain's hitting on something that's very important to any case. Not just the Shaffer case, but to any case. It's. It's the story, as you. As he says is a man walks into a bar, he's seen going in, he's never seen ever again. Well, he's never seen leaving that bar by. By whomever viewed that. That surveillance footage.
- [08:57]
Captain
Right.
- [08:57]
Nick
Does. It doesn't mean that he's never seen again or never actually left or what. Or. Or was. Or was killed before he was removed from the building. It just means whoever viewed that says that Brian Schaefer went in this way, and he's not seen ever leaving in the same manner that he entered the Bar.
- [09:17]
Captain
Yeah. And we're just. And like, I said this every time I talk to an individual. When you. When you talk to the detective. And I don't know is three years I had this rumor that Brian had a gay relationship. Well, that is not a normal thing for a college kid. Right? Like, out of all my friends and my friend group in college, I don't know if I had. I mean, I had gay friends, so they had relationships, but I never had a straight friend that had a gay relationship and then was considered to be straight. So when you have this rumor. For years. I mean, I had it for years. I talked to this individual on the phone that was like, yeah, I dated Brian for, like, six months. His friends knew about it, his family knew about it, but none of them were telling. This was never part of the story. And maybe it's not an important. Maybe it's not an important part of the story. But then when. When me and Maggie Freeling interviewed John Hurst, and he. He never, ever said it once on camera. I don't know if people just didn't ask him or if he was just not willing to. To share that information, but when he confirmed that with us, it's like, again, now we have to determine is this part. Is this narrative important to. Because, look, every minute you guys covered a bunch of missing person cases. I've never had a case where talking to. Whether it's private investigators or law enforcement that they lean towards, they lean more towards the idea that he went off and started another life. I find that strange. You know, normally it's like, well, that's a possibility, but we have no proof of that. But so many times in this case. And. And I'm also talking about law enforcement officers that, like, I'm playing a gig and the guys work in security, and we end up talking about the Shaffer case. And they didn't investigate the case, but they would just say, oh, well, rumors around the department were that he went off and started a new life. And. And maybe other than the Mara Murray case, that's just not a narrative that seems very plausible in a lot of these missing person cases. So. But also, I mean, think about this. When this source sends me these two pictures, you got a guy wearing jeans, a green T shirt with a white undershirt, which was kind of a popular style back then. So my first thought was, okay, well, we have a couple hours of surveillance footage. We have to see what are the chances that there's another individual wearing the same color green shirt with a white undershirt. Well, we found one, like, literally standing right next to Brian. They're, like, basically wearing the same outfit. And you're like, what are the chances of that? So, but I just think it's fascinating, like I said, this source, she is going through meticulously. And we've always heard that Brian was talking to these two girls at the end of the night, but there seems to be another person involved. What's interesting sometimes about true crime is you don't have to have faith. This is not religion. I can watch the footage and tell you, okay, this girl shows up and she goes apart. She's a part of this group. I can see now Brian's talking to these individuals. Who is this other individual? And everybody, just. Everybody I've talked to just seems like this individual didn't exist, that they don't know what they. They're so confused on why I'm asking them about this person. They're like, I don't know what you're talking about. There was no other person. Well, why am I seeing it on video footage? Like, I'm not making it up. It's there. So that's where it's been. That's where we're at right now as we're trying to take this footage and build a timeline of events in the footage that we think matter. And then is there anybody in this footage that we can identify as Brian leaving? And can we do enough work that maybe CPD will give us more footage? Because I don't know if they're looking for the right stuff. Again, one of the narratives was that Columbus police officers talk to everybody that work that night, question everybody, question the ban. Well, then when I questioned the band two years ago, they're like, we never talked to the law enforcement. They talked to him two years later. Listen to this. This blows my mind, not to cut.
- [14:19]
Nick
You off here, Captain, but the importance of this for people unfamiliar with the case is Brian, according to the people he's with, Clint, and I can't think of the lady's name, he. Meredith. So according to Clinton, Meredith, at some point, Brian says, and this is. This is just prior to them saying we never see him again. He says, I'm going to go over and talk to the band. And we know that Brian was a aspiring musician. He was a big fan of Pearl Jam. And so to say that they didn't enter the band until two years later is one thing. But to. But to know that part of somebody's story, a key witness's story, is that he said he was going to go talk to the band. Well, that's your next breadcrumb in your breadcrumb trail. And so, you know, it's very important that. And almost strange they may have. It may have just been simple. As simple as they had a hard time tracking down the band or who it was that night. We don't know the reasons for why the delay, but, but it's, it's important to, to understanding the story.
- [15:20]
Captain
So there was a three piece band. They were called Rock House. They were just a cover band. CPD initially said we talked to the band. They didn't. Two years later, for whatever reason, there's a group of detectives and law enforcement that show up to Ugly Tuna Saluna. The band that played the night Brian Schaefer went missing was called Rock House. The band that played the night that they came back two years later to just look around the bar and maybe just to discuss the cases, what I'm guessing they went to do. The band playing that night was called Filthy Habits. The Filthy Habits, they were a cover band as well. Now Rock House had three guys in the band. Filthy Habits had three guys in the band. Two of the guys from Filthy Habits were in Rock House. So when the cops came back and they're just looking around, the guys in the band were like, hey, what's going on? Like, why are you guys here? It's a small bar, it's a square bar. Like from any corner you can see anybody. So they're just like, hey, what are you guys doing here? Why, why are the cops here? And the cops were like, oh, we're just discussion, discussion. The Brian Schaefer case, do you know anything about it? And they're like, well, we happen to be playing that night, me and it was the singer and the drummer. And so that's when they talked to law enforcement. But law enforcement didn't show up to talk to them. They're just showing up to you. You see what I'm saying? So then, then that changes the whole narrative. And to be interviewing the band in super. I've known all those guys for a really long time. Super talented guys. Super, like they're sweetheart guys. And, and I told him, I was like, you guys know that one of the number one theories on the Internet is that the band killed Brian and dismembered him and put him in cases. And they didn't believe me. They like had to look it up on Google and they're like, wait a second, there's people out there on the Internet that think we might have killed this Guy. I'm like, yeah, that's how, that's how crazy this is. But, yeah, so it's just, but like I said, it goes back to my point that I just think, like, it's easy to assume that whatever narrative we're initially being fed is the truth. And then, then you have to question, are they, are they feeding me this false narrative because it's nefarious or is this just their version of what happened or, or their version of what they think is important? You know, and so I, I, I mean, I don't think there's no evidence to me that, that Brian went missing or on his own accord. But the other thing too is we have this narrative that, okay, well, if Brian got drunk, the narrative was Brian got drunk, had problems in his life, and decided at 1:55am he was going to go start a new life. But, but there was all, all these people saying, oh, well, this person checked his apartment the next day and this person checked. Nobody checked his apartment until like Sunday or Monday. So he could have got back home, woke up, took a shower, went to the gym and did whatever, and then decided, now, you know what? I think I'm going to take off and go on vacation. And that to me. So what we also uncovered is that Brian, multiple times in his life, just took off and went on vacation. So is it a possibility that on Saturday he was like, well, screw this, I don't really want to go on vacation with my girlfriend. I'm just going to take off and go to the Virgin Islands or whatever. And then something bad happened to him there. That's, that's a possibility, you know, but yeah, so every day it's like I get a new text message about some piece of the puzzle of Brian Schaefer's case.
- [19:33]
Lance
And we'll be right back after a quick word from our sponsors.
- [19:38]
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- [20:11]
Tim
And now we're back to the program.
- [20:14]
Lance
One thing that is so tough for me to wrap my head around is, well, I guess two things you just kind of sparked it in my brain here by saying like, did he really just decide at 1:30 in the morning to this is the moment that I'm going to start a new life? That's one thing. Like, people don't typically do that. Also, getting away with murder without a single trace of evidence is also very difficult when you're looking at like the band, you know, the band who I'm sure has never committed murder before. They've never had probably some serious allegations.
- [20:51]
Captain
Well, just the drummer, but other than.
- [20:53]
Lance
Just the drummer, of course, always the drummer. But you know, like all of a sudden the band becomes like murder mastermind killers who can find a random person and spur the moment, Spur the moment and then get away with it clean. And you know, or, or anybody. If Brian's walking home and somebody meets him on the street, that just happens to be one of the most efficient killers ever.
- [21:19]
Captain
Well, the only reason why I think that's a possibility is because that campus area, I actually know of maybe five people personally that have just been randomly attacked late night walking home. Because I think what would happen is that these wannabe gangs, gangster guys would be driving around campus and they'd see a guy walking and they go, okay, well you want to be a part of this group? Go, go beat this guy up. I mean, one of my friends literally was just walking home from a party one night on a well lit street. Five guys jump out of the car and beat him up and knock his teeth out. I mean, he permanently has replacement teeth. He did nothing. He didn't yell at, you know, nothing happened. And then a guy that me and Nick grew up with was shot and killed basically on the street Brian went missing from simply because a car drove by. They almost hit this guy. The guy was like, hey, watch where you're going. I'm walking here. And those guys thought it was some different guy. So they come back around, shoot him and then whatever, you know, a couple weeks later when they're arrested, they're like, look, we, we thought he was this other guy that we had beef with and he wasn't and we killed the wrong person. So. So I'm just saying that that has happened in that area. So if he was intoxicated and decided that he was just going to walk home, it wasn't a super short walk and he would have went down streets that he might have ran into the wrong person.
- [23:01]
Nick
And you know, we have a perspective that is different on that case than many others because we were, you know, Brian, because he was a Medical student. He was older than your traditional college student. But, you know, the captain and I grew up in Columbus and have a lot of ties to campus. I mean, you can say what you want about the campus, but they had some of the best record stores in central Ohio, if not maybe in the state. And so that's one reason to go there. The captain played in a lot of bands, played at a lot of those different bars, and I, for a period of time, worked for the university. So what the captain is saying is not wrong. It was, it was not students that was making camp campus so dangerous. It was, it was the people that lived around. It's. The campus back then was surrounded by very low income, high crime areas. And when, when you have. When you have criminals and you have violent people that, that want to victimize others and steal and rob from others, they don't do it on the street that they live in or the neighborhood that they live in. They drive to where they think they can get something of value or some money. And the thing with Brian, that's that I'll never. The hurdle that I'll never be able to clear with his case is he. If he, he. If he. 1. We know he was very intoxicated. Okay, we can see that on the, on the video. If he wasn't very intoxicated, he's pretending to be for some reason. So he's very intoxicated. We know he's been out all night long with a handful of different people, starting with dinner and then, then going from bar to bar. He's very intoxicated. He's likely alone. We know the two friends that he was with claim that they didn't, they didn't see him leave the bar. Walking from that bar to his home, he would have made for a wonderful target for a car full of thugs that want to do something bad. They would have looked at him and they would have said, let's go and get that guy. And maybe not with the intention to. To murder or even physically harm the individual, but physical harm is on the menu. If he doesn't comply, if he doesn't give us his wallet, if he doesn't give us this or that or the other thing. And I've always thought that that was what Brian ran into late that night. And that goes with the crime trends of that area of that time period as well. And I've had, depending on which detective I talk to and it's in. And not in regard to Brian's case, but in other cases, I've had some Detectives tell me if, if, if you end up in the landfill, they. There's a high probability they'll never find you. And I, I've just always thought that, that somebody. It wasn't an efficient killer. It wasn't some criminal mastermind. It was just wrong place at the wrong time. Crossing paths with a violent person that tried to take something off of him. And I think he ended. He may have ended up in a dumpster somewhere. There's a lot of dumpsters in that area. And. Yes. Did they check the landfill? We know that they did. That doesn't, that doesn't mean that he's not in the landfill. Did they check the dumpsters? Yes, we're told that they did. But just like the, the surveillance footage, it doesn't mean that they checked the right one or they checked the one that he was put in before it was the pickup schedule. And so I just. I've always thought that that is a stronger possibility in Brian's case, rather than him leaving to start a new life. Whether it was impulsively or the plan all along was to do it in the middle of the night after drinking heavily. It. It's. It's an unfortunate situation, and it's a situation that nobody wants to root for. Obviously, I would rather be wrong, but it just seems like a very likely thing because we try to apply all these different mysteries and different parts of the story to these true crime cases when they're unsolved, right, Everybody looks guilty, everybody looks like a good suspect, and every action is suspicious. But the majority of the crimes out there, the murders out there, is person A gets mad at person B and kills person B. And, and it could be they got mad at him and met him for the first time that night when they were killed. Or they've known him for 20 years.
- [27:33]
Captain
Well, think about this. Okay? So the night that Mara went missing, there's a lot of. I've seen this a lot on the Internet where people go, well, why, why, when these cops show, when they showed up that night, they didn't start this, like, crazy in depth search. They didn't really start searching, what, till the next morning?
- [27:58]
Tim
Yeah, they. They drove around a little bit that evening, but I just think they. They thought it was like a dui, right. Situation where she got up, got away from her vehicle, whether she was in the immediate vicinity or hopped into a car. I don't know what they were thinking, but I think that was there.
- [28:20]
Captain
But they do start some, some searches the next morning.
- [28:24]
Lance
Yeah. Well, even according to the dispatch they said that they expected that she would show up at the cottage, which was the hospital. And that's like written in the dispatch logs, like, make sure. I don't remember the exact wording, but it was like, if she shows up at the cottage. So, yeah, it was along the lines of intoxicated person will probably find their way to this hospital.
- [28:48]
Captain
So. So in this missing person case, people are going, well, they should. They should have started checking that night and not the next day. Well, Brian, they really weren't checking or doing much of anything until Monday. So you see, I'm saying, like, so now we got absolutely. We got this longer time that has passed. And then Mars case, they're searching in the wide open, basically. Right. And then Brian's case, it's opposite. It's a very condensed, highly populated area. And I think. I'm not saying that the cops made a mistake, because when you talk to anybody that has done missing person cases, the first thing they'll tell you, I believe my father has done 4,000. But out of those 90 some percent of those cases, the next day the case is off your desk because the guy came home. So you can't fault law enforcement for not going, oh, all hands on deck. This guy was super intoxicated. But here's what we've learned since, you know, like, since we've talked to you last. And hopefully I'm not repeating stuff that we said before, but I think this stuff again goes to narrative. So law enforcement never talks to the band. So then when I talk to the band, I think this is maybe something important. Somebody came up to the band, a guy, and somehow that there became a confrontation between this guy and one of the girls that were hanging out with the band. But these guys weren't confrontational in the sense of like, hey, man, what the hell are you doing? You're being a jerk. I'm going to kick your ass. It was just, no, this guy's being a jerk. Let's get him away from us. But there's. But what do we know? Brian told his friends, I'm going to go talk to the band. And then the band and their friends have a confrontation with some intoxicated drunk guy. Was. Was that guy Brian? And so if it was Brian, is it possible that he got in another confrontation with somebody outside the bar or leaving the bar? So I, I think. And then also just the fact that, like, the narratives keep changing. Like, the narrative was that Brian went to dinner with his dad because, hey, I'm going on vacation on Monday. So I gotta see my dad before I leave. No, Brian and his dad weren't speaking. They weren't on good terms. So it was kind of a come to Jesus moment of let's go out to eat, let's see if we can establish, build back up this relationship. And so then what you find out is that him and his dad got into this huge argument over money, inheritance. Inheritance money that he was getting from because Brian's mother passed away. So we have eyewitnesses at this restaurant that are like, yeah, they got into like kind of a shouting match. So that was the narrative that I heard then for years and now I recently learned, oh yeah, well, they got in a shouting match but they calmed down, they finished dinner and then they went back to Brian's house. And Brian, his dad and Clint had a beer before Brian and Clint left to go out to the bars. But we don't know if Brian's dad even left Brian's apartment. So maybe Brian gets back to his apartment drunk and his dad's there. We don't know. But we do know that, you know, now we know that law enforcement had, did look into his dad as a possible suspect. His dad had no alibi. Obviously they had a argument over money. So that would give some motive. And so again, I, I, I don't know if these, these little details are important, but it's just building the story. And again, if I told you person a went missing and a couple hours before they went missing they had a shouting match with their father, you'd want to know about that. That would be, I think, important information if you're law enforcement. I mean it was important information enough to have cadaver dogs go out to his house multiple times. And then also just like weird stuff like his brother had, his brother was supposed to meet up with him, never met up with him. But law enforcement tells, goes, well, but dude, he has an alibi. I go, he has an alibi till when? 2:00. When did Brian go missing? Round 1:55. You know, I mean, so is that really an alibi? I mean, I just, I think not, you know, but, and again that I think when you put these ideas out there or just put out your thought process on how you think of the case, people then could take that as that I'm implying that Brian's dad is responsible for him going missing or his brother is. And that's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying these are a part of the story. Again, we don't know if we don't know if that's important or not. Am I making any damn sense? Sometimes I just feel like I'm screaming at a wall. My biggest frustration with true crime, and I don't think Nick likes this joke, but I don't think we should call it true crime. I think we should call it what we think we know so far. But the amount of stories, whether it's JonBenet Ramsey or West Memphis Three, the narratives that we're fed initially are so. And then my question is, why are they such. I mean, West Memphis three, Three teenage boys that just. Well, all they did was listen to heavy metal and wear Metallica shirts. Like, and then they were thrown in jail for murdering three 8 year old boys. And it's like, that's a narrative you're fed for so long and you're like, they weren't just like innocent, like little angels that were railroaded by the system. These were weird kids that were confessing to the murders and telling people in public that we murdered these people. So I just think that a lot of these narratives in these cases that we hear, you have to start pulling it back. But again, I just start questioning why is the false narrative put out there and is it just, are we part of the problem? Is the documentaries part of the problem? Are they just trying to cultivate a story? Does that make any sense?
- [35:49]
Tim
Yeah, I think when there's no answers in a case and you're looking at all angles as a consumer, it's easy to believe that we're only going down this road because it does matter, you know?
- [36:02]
Captain
Yeah, because just talking to somebody, like in a bar, and we start talking about the Shaffer case and I, I just start bringing up, well, there's this thing that you might not have heard or this thing, and they're like, so you're saying that the dad did it? And you're like, no, I'm just trying to tell you. I'm just trying to fill in the gaps. And this is probably what happened a lot with your guys's podcast. You guys would hear a rumor about Mara and try to follow it up. And then you probably get a bunch of people going. So are you trying to say that the father was involved? Are you trying to say that, you know, I mean, like. And you're like, no, I'm just trying to figure out what the truth of the story is. And then once you figure out the truth of the story, does it even matter? You know, because again, Brian could have got in this horrible fight with his dad. He could have said, Dad, I hate you. I never want to see you again. And then at 1:55, when he left the bar at 205, he runs into a bad dude that has nothing to do with his dad and has nothing to do with anything other than just a bad dude at the wrong time. Or did he get hit by a car and that person was heavily intoxicated and decided, oh, well, he's still breathing. I'll just dump him off in this. In this dumpster or something?
- [37:16]
Lance
So, yeah, since the beginning of time, I feel like we have always, as a human race, tried to solve stuff, you know, from the simplest way of how am I going to feed my family tonight? And that's a series of decisions that you make, and you make the right ones or you make the wrong ones. I think that that translates to today where, you know, man walks into a bar, he's seen going in, he's not seen going out. Some people still have that part of them that's like, I have to figure this out. Yeah, it's just, what do you do with that? Like, what do you do with those narratives after you have, you know, processed the information internally? So do you go out and be public about it? In what manner do you be public about it in a broadcast, like, I've solved the case manner, until the next theory comes up and then you're like, no, I've solved it this time, or do you just kind of try to make people process it as pragmatically as you did? Does that make sense?
- [38:15]
Captain
Well, Nick always says, I hope you're not hearing what we're not saying.
- [38:22]
Nick
Yeah, don't hear what I'm not saying.
- [38:23]
Lance
Yeah, exactly.
- [38:24]
Nick
Which you. I can throw that warning out there, and they constantly hear what we're not saying. But it's, you know, it's. It's. It's searching for the truth. It's seeking the truth. You know, I said that in my book. I said, you know, I. I grew up always thinking, because reading true crime and watching mystery shows, I always thought that. That I liked a good mystery. And the older I got, I realized I don't. I. I hate them. And, and. But what. The reason why I hone in on them and focus in on them so much is because I want there to be some kind of solution to this. I want to. I want to know what actually happened. And, and so it's the hate of the mystery part that. That drives me. And so it's. Yeah, as far as the telling of these stories, I can't say that that People don't tell them, you know, what is their motivation for telling the story. I can't say what's in their head, in. In their hearts, you know, I can only tell you why we tell the stories that we do. And we're. We do it because we hope to keep the story alive. You know, when we covered a long time ago, one of it felt like a big undertaking, and it felt like it was something really big for the show, and it turned out to be something big for the show. We covered a case. The victim's name was Tony Muncie, Anthony Muncie. He was from Columbus, Ohio. He was. He was murdered when he was a teenager. And he was disposed of on the side of the road in another county. He was partially dismembered. And, you know, for a handful of months, it was a really big story in the early 80s and when the captain and I were digging through cases and whatnot. And this actually was a case that I was looking into before we even started the podcast, because I was working on a book that never happened, that it was going to be about some Ohio cold cases. And it really struck a chord with me that. That this poor teenage boy was killed. And it was a story for a couple months, and then it was like, like, like it never happened. Almost to the point, like if he didn't even exist, you know, it was. I was. I was incredibly shocked, and this will show some of my naivete, but I was incredibly shocked that there. Here was this teenager, this kid that was killed in the area where I grew up, and I never even heard the kid's name or never even heard anything about the story until I stumbled upon it on the Internet. And it wasn't being covered as a story. It was. It was simply just a cold case, just a name with a date on some cold case list. That's all it was. And so I do think that it is important to keep telling these stories. It's a good reminder that something tragic happened, something, something, and somebody's responsible for it. You know, I think you quit telling these stories then. Then somebody's getting away with. With great injustice and great harm that they did to destroying people, too, that don't follow these stories. Maybe they just watch a dateline here or there a couple of times a year. You don't realize. Forget about the impact. You don't realize how many victims there really are in these stories. You know, it's not just the. The kid that got killed and dumped on the side of the road. No, there were so many Victims in that case. And there are so many victims in a lot of the cases that we cover and that you guys cover. And, and one thing too that will shock people is the killer's family. A lot of times are the. Are the victim that's overlooked. You know, they, oh, it's not a good feeling to wake up and realize my son is a horrible monster. You know, it's not. It's not a good feeling to. To all of a sudden figure out that your. Your sister was bilking people out of. Out of money and, oh, killed this man to cover it up. You know, it's. It's. It's horrifying and tough for those people, too.
- [42:36]
Lance
Well, yeah, they have to then try to figure out why their son or daughter or brother or sister became that perpetrator of violence. They have to think to themselves, was it something I did in the upbringing? Did I not do something right? Did I miss signs? Did I miss signals? And that has to be just as painful as somebody wondering, why was my son or daughter or wife killed for no reason, randomly, out of the blue, an act of violence that she didn't ask to have on her. Trying to come to terms with that is just everyday torture that you have to go through therapy to get through. And a lot of people do, but a lot of people don't. And a lot of people turn to violence in that case as well. They'll start to become violent themselves. So, yeah, you're right. It's not just one person that you have to look at and say, there's the killer, there's the victim. I feel bad for the victim. Like the ripple effect. And we always say that the ripple effect, the butterfly effect is infinite.
- [43:38]
Captain
Yeah, because, you know, back to, like, Bill. Bill Rauch. Chicken.
- [43:46]
Lance
His life forever.
- [43:47]
Captain
Yeah, chicken or the egg. Were you going to do these actions no matter what, or were these actions propelled because you had a traumatic experience with a girlfriend going missing? You have no answers. But also, then back to the narrative thing. I do think sometimes these narratives, there. There's not a nefarious. They're not simplifying it to be nefarious. But like, I was just talking to Aurelia the. The other day, and she's the one that told me about Mara's case, and it was like. It simply was, you know, the New Hampshire girl that went missing in New Hampshire, she went to UMass. That was the narrative, you know, I mean, so that was enough for me to go, well, let me look into it. And then you're hooked and now you. Then the narrative expands. So I don't think always the narrative being simplified or not true is coming from a bad place. It might just. Because that's how we simplify Brian Schaefer the narrative. That guy walks into a bar and never walks out again.
- [44:51]
Lance
And we'll be right back after a quick word from our sponsors.
- [44:55]
Tim
Thanks to our sponsors. And now we're back to the program. Well, my question to you guys is, when is your book on the Brian Schaefer case coming out?
- [45:05]
Captain
I wrote a book last year called IPP I Poopoo. It did pretty well.
- [45:13]
Lance
I have the audible version of it.
- [45:16]
Captain
No, again, see, this goes back to my thing. I don't know if you guys wrestle with this or not, because, again, you guys are coming from to. To me. And. And maybe it's just because I know you on a different level than other people know you or. Or how I came to know you. But, like, I view you guys as filmmakers, like, in. In my mind, but I'm sure most of your audience views you in a different light than that. And just like I said, I think me and Nick's path and what we're doing with the platform is different, and I think that's okay, you know, And. And because there's stuff that he. Like when I say he's a true crime expert, like, every. Almost every case we cover, he says something that I'm like, oh, I never even thought of it that way. Or. Wow, that's a very. How did you get that piece of information? I looked. I looked at this. I had 10 sources on this case, and I didn't come across that. So I think. I don't know. I think all that. That's. That's something I wrestle with all the time, because sometimes I think, oh, I have this platform, and I got these five victims families I need to call back. And then there's other. There's other days where I'm like, I'm. I'm not calling them back because I don't care. I'm not calling them back because if I keep going at this pace, I'm going to break down at some point.
- [46:48]
Tim
Yeah, Burnout. Yeah, Burnout's definitely a real thing. Well, yeah. Nick, I know you did write a book. Are you going to write another one? Have you. If you consider that I hope to.
- [47:07]
Nick
In the early stages of putting together a story that would be, you know, not just a different case, but it. The case and the way that the storytelling would go would be considerably different than the Delphi murders. Book. And you know, with the Delphi murders book, I really felt like I was writing it. I was writing it for me. But I also had to keep in mind that the, a large portion of the people that would, would be kind enough to read my book would be people that are already part of our audience. And so I, I did, I did what they tell all writers not to do. I wrote myself into the book, but I felt like that I needed to give, give a little more background because we don't, we don't get into too much personal stuff on, on True Crime Garage. We, we try to keep the, the story about the, the victim and, and the, the facts of the case and in some of our theories and speculation. But, you know, so I did, I did kind of give the, the reader information on why and how I got in into true crime because, you know, when, when I was a kid, true crime was this, was this single bookshelf in the back of the bookstore that, that very few people people venture to and even few people, fewer people wanted to be seen standing in front of. It was kind of this, it was kind of looked at as like tabloid news in a, in a, in a way. And so, you know, today it's. So there's so many people that, that, that follow the stories and, and you have these, these shows that everybody tunes into. And, and I have this weird fear of. And it's because it's happened multiple times that I'm, you know, I'm in a bar or I'm somewhere in a big social gathering and somebody asked me, what do you do for a living? What is it that you do? And I'm always hesitant to answer that question truthfully because I know 90% of the time what will follow. It's going to be, I'm going to be peppered about some case that I may know if, you know, I may be familiar with or it may be a case that I don't know anything about. But the, the worst, the worst questions that you can get is, you know, you can pick any victim or, or let's use Mara Murray as an example. Like the, the broad question, I'm sure Tim Lance, you guys get this. The people that don't know your show, but find out what, of what it is that you're working on. I hate the one who's like, hey, Mara Murray, so go like that. Like, what's the question? What, what am I supposed to, am I supposed to do a show, a podcast right here in front of you?
- [50:03]
Lance
Get your PowerPoint ready for the Presentation.
- [50:06]
Captain
Well, real quick, Tim. Lance, we'll start with Tim. When somebody asks you at a bar, what you do, what do you. What do you tell them?
- [50:17]
Tim
Yeah, I. I don't go to bars too much these days, but, geez, I guess I would probably say podcaster, you know, and try to get out of the conversation. Try to shift the. The topic very quickly after that.
- [50:32]
Captain
And, Lance, what do you. What's your answer?
- [50:34]
Lance
Yeah, I say, like, I have a media company. We do podcasting primarily, like, true crime stuff. And then they'll be like, oh, really? That. I love to. You know, people will typically say that they, like, you know, oh, we watch Netflix documentaries. But I always end up saying, like, you know, it. It tends to get pretty heavy. You know, it's. It's pretty heavy. Indicating, like, I don't want to talk about. Yeah, yeah, I'm. I'm here trying to talk about something else.
- [51:00]
Captain
Yeah.
- [51:00]
Lance
But then I'll ask them what they do. Like, it's real easy to just, like, hook it around and just say, like, yeah, so that's. That's me. What do you do? But, yeah, you know, a lot of the times, like, the conversations will happen where we'll hang out with our neighbors who know what I do, and they'll say, any updates on. And then they'll fill in the blank there. And I think they get it now. When they first met me, I think they wanted more. And now they just know by my body language, if I say no updates, that's it. That's gonna be like, no, there's not a whole lot to talk about. Then we just move on.
- [51:34]
Tim
But I also want to say, like, it's. It's hard sometimes to have conversations that aren't about the work. Yeah. Like. Like, you know, if my. My kids are having a play date with. With a dad, sometimes it's hard to not talk about who we just interviewed or who our next interview is. And. And I don't want to get into it, but sometimes I just don't know what else to talk about, so I do.
- [52:03]
Lance
Yeah. Well, sometimes it is kind of like you. You start talking to people because you want to see their reaction.
- [52:09]
Captain
Yeah, yeah.
- [52:10]
Lance
Or, hey, and sorry, that's kind of selfish. But, like, what did you do today? Oh, that was your job. Well, today we talked to the guy who stole $5 million from Alanis Morissette, went to prison, came out, and now is trying to reinvent his life.
- [52:23]
Captain
Wait, they're like, what was that one? I got to listen to that one.
- [52:26]
Lance
Usually, latest Crawl Space. Jonathan. Jonathan Schwartz.
- [52:29]
Captain
Oh, my God.
- [52:32]
Lance
Crazy interview.
- [52:35]
Captain
Yes. I'm going to go listen to it, but. Yeah.
- [52:37]
Lance
What do you guys say?
- [52:39]
Captain
Well, what do you, what do you say, Nick?
- [52:42]
Nick
Well, I mean, I'm honest about it, but I, but if there's a group of people and it's kind of going around in a circle, you know, I will usually conveniently, like, try to be the quiet one that doesn't say anything. I've also, and it's not that I'm trying to be rude. It's, it's. But, but, you know, it's like I said, it's the dumb, the fear of, the dumb question of the, you know, Matthew Perry. Okay, what happened? Like, you know, I don't, I don't know. You know, like, like, there's, there's a lot of cases and stories I'm not familiar with at all. But, but I'm also one of those guys that, like, if I'm out in a social place or if I'm at an event, I'm there for the event. I'm there for whatever. I, I, you know, I'm, I've never been the type that loves sitting around and talking about work or bitching about work after the work day is done. Totally. You know, and that's just me, you know, and there. But we all do know somebody that, that all they talk about is their work and, and good for them. And, and, and, and I'm, I'm very happy and, and I'm very lucky to do what, what I do and get to do this. And I, that's not lost on me. But if you, if you see me sitting there on the bar stool, I'm, I'm there for. He's probably about fun conversation and, and usually the, the game that's on the TV in front of me.
- [54:07]
Captain
I, I try to tell people all the time. If you listen to the show, people are out, like, man, I'd love to have a beer with the captain, and I'd love to talk true crime with Nick. And I'm like, if you meet us, like, at an event, like, I'll probably be the one talking about a case, and Nick will probably be the one drinking a beer and talking about football and having a good time. But, but our, our dynamic is also a little strange because, you know, our father was a detective. And so when we first started, I remember Nick was on some show or some documentary and it said, like, true crime expert. And at first my dad was like, how is he a true crime expert? Like, I'm a detective. I was a detective for 20 years. And now, so many years later, you know, Nick wrote a book. He's involved with Project Porchlight. They solved a murder. They figured out these Jane does and John does, and. And so it's weird because my father is now very proud of everything he's done, and he kind of does view him. Oh, well, he didn't do the job, but he is an expert in this field. But then he's weirdly proud of me for not wanting to be an expert, and if that makes any sense. Like, I feel like I'm here to help facilitate what he's doing. And when I say that people are like, you're just as much of a part of the show, I'm like, yeah, I know that. I produce. I edit every show. I know what I'm doing. You know, but. But when people ask me at bars, what do you do? I say, I. I edit audio for commercials. And it's, like, cool enough where they're like, oh, cool. Like, at a studio. I'm like, no, I just work at my house. But, like, it's cool enough, but not enough. But it's true.
- [56:08]
Lance
I mean, it's cool enough to stand out as unique, but you don't really have to get into it because, yeah, I get it. I get what a commercial is.
- [56:15]
Captain
Yeah. If they ask me questions, I'm like, yeah, we do ads for better help and simply safe and hello fresh. You know, you probably heard those. I do. They'll be like, you know, like ads on podcasts. Yep, exactly. You've heard my word. No, but I think. But I think it's okay. And I think, look, my favorite murder they blew up. Nobody on that show is claiming to be an expert. They're still entertainers and comedians, and that's fine. I don't think we all have to then define ourselves as armchair detectives. It's something. I'm super fascinated. What I also hate is when listeners go, it's amazing to see how involved and evolved you become in the true crime space. I'm like, I was always fascinated with it, but it's just. It's a smaller percentage of who I am, as opposed to Nick. You know, just like me and Nick both watch NFL football, but I don't have, like, two or three fantasy football leagues, and I've never bet on a game. We're. There's just. We're involved in a different way.
- [57:26]
Tim
Yeah. Sports is a great escape. I think that's for. For me, at least from, you know, work and. And Everything else, it's just.
- [57:34]
Captain
Well, you can, you used to be able to dunk, right?
- [57:39]
Tim
I have dunked in a game before once. One time.
- [57:43]
Captain
I've never done it in a game, but. But my life ain't over, my friend. My life.
- [57:52]
Tim
It was, I was on a breakaway. It was, it was lucky. But my God, you guys, this has been a great conversation. We gotta do this more.
- [58:01]
Lance
Why don't we do this more?
- [58:02]
Captain
Yeah, this is easy. Easy lift, easy lifting.
- [58:06]
Nick
Yeah.
- [58:08]
Tim
Yeah. It's been super fun catching up with you guys and hitting, hitting a plethora of topics.
- [58:14]
Captain
Are we going to see you in Colorado or.
- [58:18]
Tim
Yeah, I believe so. Yeah.
- [58:20]
Captain
That will be fun.
- [58:21]
Lance
That will be fun.
- [58:22]
Tim
Formal announcement yet, but yes, very likely.
- [58:26]
Lance
Let's see if we can connect and do something there.
- [58:28]
Captain
Well, I hope so. You guys always look handsome and always, always. You look better and smell better than Bob Ruff every time. Every time.
- [58:40]
Lance
That's a compliment I'm going to take very seriously. I appreciate.
- [58:44]
Captain
He does smell nice, though.
- [58:45]
Lance
He is very nice smelling man.
- [58:48]
Tim
Yeah. Well, cool, you guys. What's coming up soon on True Crime Garage.
- [58:56]
Nick
Hopefully this episode that we are doing right now.
- [58:59]
Lance
Yes, fantastic.
- [59:04]
Nick
Now we, we were actually just had a meeting this morning to add some new cases to the, the calendar. We don't like to, we're not big on announcing what's coming up because we've a lot of times we, we're always getting approached with different cases and different stories and sometimes, you know, one, one may, one may leapfrog another story. So it's, it's a, it's a fluid calendar that we keep. But yeah, we got some, some interesting case. And you know what's, what's wild is all these cases that we've covered over the years. When am I going to stop being shocked? Right? When, when I keep think I would have thought by now that I would just be like, okay, here we go again. You know, with this, this crazy story, they just keep getting more far out there and more bizarre as, as we dig deeper into this, this space.
- [60:04]
Lance
Well, you know, I think that's a testament to the two of you, you know, not being so battle weary, not being so desensitized that they still affect you. So that's good.
- [60:17]
Captain
Yeah. But do you wrestle with this though too? People love Dateline, right? Because there's a start and there's an end of the story. And I do think it's important to cover cases that are solved because you, there is something you learn from that. But when you have a platform like, we just feel like it's more important to cover the unsolved cases because it might stir something, you might have an effect on, on, on life. And so I think we wrestle with that sometimes of, you know, are we doing too many unsolved cases or too, you know, So I don't know if you guys wrestle with that as well.
- [61:03]
Lance
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But you know, there is an obligation that comes with this and I mean, you weigh it and I mean the story's nice when it gets wrapped up, but you also have to make sure that there are stories out there that aren't wrapped up, that can be wrapped up. So it's got to start somewhere.
- [61:21]
Tim
Yeah, I think we find the unsolved ones a bit more purposeful, but I think, I think listeners tend to gravitate towards cases that have been solved, I think from what we've heard. But yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I think for me as a listener, I'm always more interested in the unsolved stuff. I think I come from that school of like the Bermuda Triangle and like Bigfoot and like that. That is like where my interest in mysteries began and it's, you know, morphed quite a ways. But, but yeah, I love, I at my core that like I'm interested in the ones that will probably never, you know, have a great answer for.
- [62:03]
Captain
Yeah, one day they're going to do like a docu series of the, the explosion of podcast and how, how it formed because we started like you guys, when it was a complete wild wild west. And it seems not so wild wild west anymore. Seems a little.
- [62:26]
Nick
And it was a bunch of, a bunch of no name people that had podcasts when we all started.
- [62:31]
Captain
Right.
- [62:31]
Nick
It was a bunch of Tim and Lances and Nick and Captains out there. Right. And it's like Steve Buscemi just did an ad on our show that he's got a podcast coming out now. So it's, it's, it's all the, the famous people are, they're gonna, they're gonna squeeze us out of this, this space.
- [62:48]
Lance
Tim, I just saw that Bart Simpson has a podcast.
- [62:55]
Nick
That cartoon character. Long awaited. Long awaited.
- [62:59]
Lance
Long awaited.
- [63:00]
Captain
I've always wanted to hear a long form interview with Bart Simpson.
- [63:05]
Tim
No, but, but Lisa Simpson has a, has a true crime podcast.
- [63:09]
Lance
Yep.
- [63:10]
Captain
But I, but I think it's interesting how people have evolved over time and, and some shows have become more entertainment as opposed to trying to move the needle and, but I'm proud, like maybe we're not the Biggest show, whatever. At least we're trying to move the needle, and I'm proud of that, and I'm proud of what you guys are doing. And like I said, you can yell at me anytime you want. Tim, I will never stop loving you.
- [63:42]
Tim
No matter thanks.
- [63:44]
Captain
No matter how many times you hurt me, I will. I still don't even know.
- [63:48]
Tim
No more yelling.
- [63:49]
Captain
I still don't even know what to cover. I don't even know if you yell at me. I'm making this all up. But. No but.
- [63:56]
Nick
But.
- [63:56]
Captain
I'm proud to know you guys. I'm proud to have worked with you guys, and I'm proud that you continue to do what you do. So thank you for having us on.
- [64:04]
Lance
Yeah. I mean, the feeling is. Is entirely mutual. You guys are honestly, like an inspiration to be in the same conversation with. And, you know, even having this conversation has been incredible. Highlight of the year, to be honest.
- [64:19]
Captain
Yeah. And I know it's hard to keep up with codename Pay a horse.
- [64:23]
Lance
Well, who can?
- [64:25]
Captain
But you got to try.
- [64:27]
Lance
You're so pale and fast.
- [64:29]
Nick
I'm glad that you said an inspiration there, Lance. So maybe in Denver, come this fall, I could inspire you to buy me.
- [64:38]
Captain
A drink or two.
- [64:41]
Lance
I. That's. That. I. I will always step up to a challenge like that. I want to. Want to make sure that that fulfills your inspirational needs.
- [64:52]
Tim
Well, yeah, we can't wait to rub elbows with you guys again in person sometime very soon. Hopefully in Denver this September. That'll be. That'd be great.
- [65:03]
Lance
So there's no better place for the pale horse to ride than Denver.
- [65:09]
Captain
I'm just glad you said that. I'm just glad somebody acknowledged that I didn't want to have to do it myself. Sa.