Mysterious Death of Ellen Greenberg /// Part 1

Summary

True Crime Garage: Episode Summary - "Mysterious Death of Ellen Greenberg Part 1"

Introduction to the Case

In the gripping first part of the "Mysterious Death of Ellen Greenberg," hosts Nick and the Captain delve into the perplexing circumstances surrounding the tragic demise of Ellen Ray Greenberg. Released on February 26, 2025, this episode meticulously unpacks the events leading up to Ellen's death, the ensuing investigations, and the lingering questions that continue to haunt her family and friends.

Background on Ellen Greenberg

Ellen Ray Greenberg was a vibrant 27-year-old schoolteacher residing in Philadelphia. Born on June 23, 1983, in New York City to Josh and Sandy Greenberg, Ellen was known for her infectious positivity and dedication both personally and professionally.

• Early Life and Education
  • Born in NYC, moved to Harrisburg, Pennsylvania in 1994.
  • Attended Penn State University, earning a degree in Communications.
  • Pursued teaching credentials at Temple University and became a first-grade teacher at Juanita Park Academy in Philadelphia.

Relationship with Sam Goldberg

Ellen's life took a significant turn in 2007 when she met Sam Goldberg through a mutual friend. Their relationship blossomed over three years, culminating in an engagement in the summer of 2010.

• Engagement and Living Situation
  • Sam proposed to Ellen on a beach trip in California, to which she happily agreed (Transcript [00:15]).
  • The couple moved into the Venice Loft Apartments at 4601 Flat Rock Road, Unit 603, scheduled to marry in August 2011.

Changes in Ellen's Behavior

Despite a seemingly perfect life, close friends and family began noticing unsettling changes in Ellen's demeanor during the winter of 2010.

• Signs of Distress
  • Increased anxiety and stress, attributed to work pressures and wedding planning (Transcript [13:55]).
  • Ellen texted her parents: "I want to leave this place, get me out." indicating severe distress (Transcript [14:28]).
  • Searched troubling terms like "suffocation" and "suicide methods" on her computer on December 18, 2010 (Transcript [17:12]).

Timeline of January 26, 2011

The day of Ellen's death was marked by a severe blizzard in Philadelphia, complicating the events that unfolded.

• Morning to Early Afternoon

  • 7:00 AM: Ellen communicates with her mother (Transcript [33:32]).
  • 1:15 PM: Ellen leaves work early due to school closure from the snowstorm.
  • 2:30 PM: Makes a call to a local restaurant, specifics unknown (Transcript [34:29]).

• Afternoon Developments

  • 4:45 PM: Sam leaves for a workout at the apartment's on-site gym (Transcript [03:25]–[29:33]).
  • 5:30 PM: Sam attempts to return but finds the apartment door latched from the inside, unable to gain entry (Transcript [36:25]–[54:15]).

• Critical Moments

  • 5:32 PM - 5:54 PM: Sam sends nine texts expressing frustration and confusion, such as "you have no idea" and "I'm getting pissed" (Transcript [45:16]–[47:29]).
  • 6:30 PM: Surveillance shows Sam breaking into the apartment after seeking advice from his cousin and uncle to force entry (Transcript [61:34]–[70:05]).

• Tragic Conclusion

  • 6:36 PM: Emergency responders arrive.
  • 6:40 PM: Ellen is pronounced dead with 20 stab wounds, including 10 to her back and neck (Transcript [68:22]–[72:27]).

Analysis of Sam's Actions and Texts

Nick and the Captain scrutinize Sam's behavior during the critical timeframe, raising questions about his reactions and the authenticity of his actions.

• Sam's Emotional Response

  • Sam's texts during his failed attempt to enter the apartment conveyed anger rather than concern:
    • "You have no idea" ([45:16])
    • "I'm getting pissed" ([45:23])
  • Captain's Insight: Sam suggests these texts could imply frustration over being locked out rather than malicious intent.

• Potential for Staging

  • Sam's interaction with his cousin and uncle, who are attorneys, raises suspicions about possible staging:
    • The strategic timing of phone calls during the break-in narrative ([61:34]–[70:05]).
    • Lack of clear timeline regarding his phone activity and actions.

Discussion on Potential Scenarios: Suicide vs. Homicide

The hosts explore two primary theories concerning Ellen's death: homicide by Sam Goldberg or suicide.

• Homicide Theory

  • Sam's inability to enter the apartment and subsequent actions suggest possible foul play.
  • The lack of eyewitnesses to the actual event and the presence of surveillance cameras limit alternative suspects.
  • Nick's Observation: If Sam had intended to stage the scene, more conspicuous actions could have been expected.

• Suicide Theory

  • Ellen's history of anxiety, stress, and searching for suicide-related terms complicates the scenario.
  • However, the nature of her injuries (20 stab wounds) strongly leans towards homicide rather than suicide.

Insights and Open Questions

The episode concludes with a myriad of unresolved questions, setting the stage for further investigation in Part 2.

• Investigation Gaps

  • Lack of early detective presence at the scene ([71:40]–[72:27]).
  • Inadequate exploration of Ellen's mental state and possible motives Sam might have had.

• Future Directions

  • The necessity to delve deeper into Sam's relationship dynamics with Ellen.
  • Examination of the investigation's thoroughness and possible oversight of crucial evidence.

Notable Quotes

• Nick on Ellen's Character:

  • "Ellen had a great smile." ([12:47])

• Ellen's Desperate 911 Call:

  • "Please, Harry, please." ([04:24])
  • "She stabbed herself." ([05:30])

• Sam on Mental Health:

  • "I think we need to talk about mental health more openly and honestly." ([20:57])

• Discussion on Sam's Alibi:

  • "This guy is pretty sophisticated." ([68:22])

Conclusion

"Mysterious Death of Ellen Greenberg Part 1" offers a compelling examination of a young woman's untimely death, shedding light on potential flaws in the investigation and the complex interplay between personal relationships and mental health. As Nick and the Captain navigate through the intricate timeline and conflicting narratives, listeners are left pondering the true nature of Ellen's tragic end, eagerly anticipating the revelations to come in the next installment.

Transcript

[Nick]

I was trapped in the cult.

[Captain]

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[Dispatcher]

Everything inside of me was screaming, just go.

[Captain]

Ten cults.

[Sam Goldberg]

He claimed he heard the voice of God.

[Captain]

Ten stories of escape.

[Nick]

It was an emotional battle. We were brainwashed. My sister and I got on the.

[Sam Goldberg]

Snow machine and I'm like, there's no way out.

[Nick]

And if I got caught, he would for sure kill me.

[Captain]

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[Ellie Greenberg]

Void.

[Captain]

We're prohibited by law. Must be 21 years or older. Terms and conditions apply.

[Dispatcher]

SA.

[Nick]

Foreign welcome to true crime Garage. Wherever you are, whatever you are doing, thanks for listening. I'm your host Nick. And with me as always, is a man who has lived his entire life in shame. Here is the captain and I'm going.

[Sam Goldberg]

To continue to live my life in shame. It's good to be seen and good to see you. Thanks for listening. Thanks for telling a friend.

[Nick]

This week we are featuring gold strong golden ale by the fine brewers Over Yards Brewing company in the city of brotherly love and championships, Philly, Pennsylvania. Eight percent ABV Garage grade three and a half bottle caps out of five. And let's give some thanks and some praise and some cheers to our good friends that helped us fill up the old garage fridge for this week's shows. First up, a cheers to Megan in St. Regis, Montana.

[Sam Goldberg]

And a big we like your jib goes out to Jessica right in Wyoming.

[Nick]

Here's a double fisted cheers to Melissa and Trevor from West Point, Georgia.

[Sam Goldberg]

And a big tall cans in the air to Cheryl Bullock in Champagne, Illinois.

[Nick]

And last but certainly not least, we have Pick pack Bob in Louisville, Kentucky. Everybody we just mentioned went to true crimegarage.com clicked on the pint glass and helped us with this week's beer run for the beer fund. And for that we thank you.

[Sam Goldberg]

Yeah, BWR beer run for everything. True crime. Check out true crime garage.com and make sure you sign up on the mailing list. And Colonel, that is enough of the be.

[Nick]

All right everybody gather around. Grab a chair, grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime.

[Ellie Greenberg]

I remember everything now. I Just. I just walked into my apartment. My fiance's on the floor with blood everywhere.

[Dispatcher]

What is the address?

[Ellie Greenberg]

4601 Flat Rock Road. Please come help now. Flat Rock Road.

[Dispatcher]

Is this a house or apartment?

[Ellie Greenberg]

Oh, no. Oh, no. It's an apartment. Please, Harry, please.

[Dispatcher]

She bleeding from.

[Ellie Greenberg]

I don't know. I can't tell. She's so.

[Dispatcher]

You have to calm yourself down in order to get you some help.

[Ellie Greenberg]

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. She. I don't know. I'm looking at her right now. She. I don't. I can't see anything. She didn't. There's nothing broken. She's bleeding.

[Dispatcher]

Ellie, you don't know where she's bleeding from? Ellie, Blood's coming from.

[Ellie Greenberg]

It's. I think her head. I think she hit her head, I think. But everywhere. Everywhere.

[Dispatcher]

She might have fallen. Do you know what happened?

[Ellie Greenberg]

She may have slept. There's blood on the. On the table. Her face is a little purple.

[Dispatcher]

Okay, hold on for rescue for her. Stay on the phone.

[Ellie Greenberg]

I went downstairs to go work out. I came back up. The door was latched. Mike's fiance's inside. She wasn't answering, so after about a half hour, I decided to break it down. I see her now, just on the floor with blood. Like. She's not responding.

[Dispatcher]

Okay, Is she breathing? Look at her chest. I need you to calm down and I need you to look at her chest. It's really.

[Ellie Greenberg]

I don't think she. I really don't think she is.

[Dispatcher]

Listen to me. Someone's on the way. Look at her chest. Is she flat on her back?

[Ellie Greenberg]

She's on her back.

[Dispatcher]

Look at her chest and tell me if it's going up and down, up and down.

[Ellie Greenberg]

I don't see her moving.

[Dispatcher]

Okay. Do you know how to do cpr?

[Ellie Greenberg]

I don't.

[Dispatcher]

Okay, I can tell you what to do. Okay. Until they get there, I want you to keep her.

[Ellie Greenberg]

Oh, God.

[Dispatcher]

Hello?

[Ellie Greenberg]

Yeah, hi. Okay.

[Dispatcher]

Willing to do CPR with me over the phone so they can.

[Ellie Greenberg]

I have to. Right.

[Dispatcher]

Okay. To get her flat on her back. Bure her chest. Okay. You want to rip her shirt off? Okay, deal. Down by her side.

[Ellie Greenberg]

Oh, my God. Allie, please.

[Dispatcher]

Listen, listen, you can't freak out, sir, okay?

[Ellie Greenberg]

I'm trying not to. Try not. Her shirt won't come off. It's a zipper. Oh, my God. She stabbed herself.

[Dispatcher]

Where?

[Ellie Greenberg]

She fell in a knife. Oh, no. Her neck's sticking out.

[Dispatcher]

Her what?

[Ellie Greenberg]

There's a knife sticking out of her heart.

[Dispatcher]

Oh, she stabbed herself?

[Ellie Greenberg]

I guess so. I don't know where she fell on it? I don't know.

[Dispatcher]

Okay, well, don't touch it.

[Ellie Greenberg]

Okay, so I'm just about to let her hear now. I mean, what do I do?

[Dispatcher]

Oh, I mean, you can't. If the knife is in her chest, it's going to be kind of hard for you to do CPR at this time.

[Ellie Greenberg]

Oh, no. Oh, my goodness. Okay.

[Dispatcher]

Police with shop reader 277.

[Ellie Greenberg]

Is someone coming here?

[Dispatcher]

Yes, they are. You said 4601 Flat Rock, right?

[Ellie Greenberg]

Yes.

[Dispatcher]

Okay. Someone's on the way. And the knife is still inside.

[Ellie Greenberg]

What?

[Dispatcher]

The knife is still inside of her?

[Ellie Greenberg]

Yes. I didn't take it out.

[Dispatcher]

Was it her chest or what area?

[Ellie Greenberg]

It's in her chest. It's like. It looks like it's. It looks like it's right in her heart.

[Dispatcher]

Okay, someone's on the way out there. Okay, just get.

[Ellie Greenberg]

Oh, my God. Oh my God.

[Dispatcher]

How old is she?

[Ellie Greenberg]

She's 27.

[Dispatcher]

27. There's no sign of life at all.

[Ellie Greenberg]

No, no, please don't be. What?

[Dispatcher]

Pinch her under her arm and tell me she responds to pain.

[Ellie Greenberg]

She's. Ellie, she's not. She's not. Her arm. Her hands are still warm. I don't know if that means. But there's blood everywhere.

[Dispatcher]

I mean, I know, but you can't. And the knife is still inside of her. How far. Can you see how far it went in?

[Ellie Greenberg]

It looks pretty deep. Okay, it looks three, and it's a long knife.

[Dispatcher]

Don't touch anything. Yeah, don't touch anything.

[Ellie Greenberg]

I'm not touching anything. I can't believe this, though. No, wait.

[Dispatcher]

It was just you there with her?

[Ellie Greenberg]

We. Yeah, we're the only ones here.

[Dispatcher]

And she ran in the door. You said let's shut.

[Ellie Greenberg]

No, no, I. I went downstairs to work out and I. When I came back up, the door was latched like it was, you know, it wasn't like it was, you know, it was like locked from the inside. And I'm yelling and I saw.

[Dispatcher]

Yelling into.

[Ellie Greenberg]

No, no, no, no, no.

[Dispatcher]

So there's no sign of a break in?

[Ellie Greenberg]

No, no sign of a break in at all. I mean, there will be when you get here because I had to break the latch, but to get in.

[Dispatcher]

Okay, 46 01.

[Nick]

Well, you heard it there, folks. A strange and bizarre 911 call, to say the very least. But this case that we have on tap for you in the garage today is an intriguing one with some twists and some turns and frankly, some surprising findings and conclusions along the way. We have 27 year old Ellen Ray Greenberg, whose mysterious and tragic death on January 26, 2011. This has led her parents down a long and troubling road filled with opposition and legal battles simply to determine correctly the manner of Ellen's death. Was it suicide, was it a homicide? Or should the death have been ruled undetermined? Listen to the facts of the case and decide for yourself. On that day, January 26, 2011, a blizzard hit Philadelphia. Philadelphia received almost 15 inches of snow. By the time the storm was over, many of the municipalities declared snow emergencies. 27 year old Ellen Ray Greenberg was a schoolteacher, so she had to leave work that day to return to her apartment. The school closed down that evening. Ellen was pronounced dead as a result of 20 stab wounds, including 10 to her back and neck. There were more than three dozen accidents during the morning of the 26th. That's traffic accidents due to the blizzard, due to the snow. Philadelphia International Airport had 41 morning flights canceled and it had an average delay of three hours. From my understanding here, Captain, the first surge of snow on the morning of the 26, many of the school districts had to make last minute decisions to either close or have delayed openings. But many closed early that afternoon and we know that Ellen went to work that day, School closed early that day and she had to go home. We will go through that day in great detail, but first let's go through some background information. Ellen Greenberg was born June 23, 1983 in New York City to parents Josh and Sandy Greenberg. The Greenbergs themselves the parents, they met on a blind date in New York City in 1978 and and they also lived in northern New Jersey. Josh was a periodontist about their daughter, says mother Sandy Greenberg. Ellen, she was a really fun, adorable, very loving, bubbly young woman with a bright future ahead of her. She loved life and was very positive and upbeat. She was competitive, giving her best from the softball field to the golf course. And here's a quote that's going to get you right in the heart. Ellen had a great smile, says her father Josh Greenberg. Quote, not a big smile. She had a great smile. End quote. In 1994, the family moved to the Harrisburg area where Sandy is from. Ellen was in middle school back then attending Susquehanna Township schools. This is suburban Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. Harrisburg is the capital city of Pennsylvania with a population of over 50, 000 people. In 2020, after graduating high school, Ellen attended Penn State University where she worked as a lionizer, introducing athletes and their parents to the campus and even helped out on the football field. I've seen These people in action from being a person that held season tickets to Ohio State Buckeye football for many years. And I never knew what those persons were called that that walked the athletes around and you could see them at different events, maybe showing them the stadium or walking their parents through the stadium or walking them around campus for the first time. That was one of the jobs that she held during her time at Penn State. She graduated from Penn State with a degree in communications, and after that she decided to attend Temple University, taking night classes to earn teaching credentials, after which she became a first grade teacher at Juanita Park Academy in Philadelphia. She loved Penn State and loved Penn State football, is what everybody says here. Captain. A big part of the story, as we know from the 911 call, is Sam Goldberg, who was Ellen's fiance at the time of her death. The two of them met in 2007 through a mutual friend. And then in the summer of 2010, this is after three years of dating. Sam proposed to Ellen on the beach during a trip to the great state of California. She says yes. And after getting engaged, Ellen Greenberg and Sam Goldberg moved to a apartment on the sixth floor over the Skull Kill river in Philadelphia. This is the Venice Loft Apartments, and It's located at 4601 Flat Rock Road. They are Unit 603, located on the 6th floor of the building. The wedding is scheduled for August of 2011. Now, in the winter of 2010, Ellen's parents and some of her friends, they say that this is when they noticed a significant change in her behavior. We heard how her mother described her, we heard how her father described Ellen. And so she was always this cheerful, composed person. But they say around this time she became increasingly anxious and very stressed. And when questioned about this, about these changes, people voice their concern, ask her what's going on. Ellen attributed a lot of her anxiety to work pressures. Did cite that there was stress coming from planning the wedding, but it seems.

[Sam Goldberg]

Like everything's going right and right on schedule. She goes to a great university, she gets a good education, she gets a good job. She finds her man, her man proposes. This is setting up to get married and probably start a family within the next few years. She's right on schedule. So it's a little odd to me that she feels so stressed or that there was some kind of change and her personality or maybe her outlook towards life.

[Nick]

In December of 2010, her anxiety reached a point where she even expressed a desire to quit her job and to move back home with her parents. And one particular text that stands out. Her parents say that she texts them, quote, I want to leave this place, get me out.

[Sam Goldberg]

Which I find strange because it's one thing to say, hey, this job is stressful. I need to leave my job. But to move home when you're already roommates with your future husband, why would you want to leave that situation? That, to me, is some kind of foreshadowing or some indication that not just her job is stressful, but maybe this relationship is stressful as well.

[Nick]

The phrase I want to leave this place is very troubling to me because it could mean any number of scenarios, it could mean her job, it could mean her relationship. Place is oftenly, is oftentimes used as an abbreviation for any number of things. Right? It could. It could simply be they moved into this apartment complex and she hates this apartment complex. I want to leave this place. And then if you want to take it to the extreme, you wonder and you worry, does she mean this world, her life? I want to leave this place, get me out. There's not any great definition that is put to that text, and it's concerning and it's troubling. But we don't have any thing to. To expand on what she meant by choosing those words and sending them to her parents. Now, some of this information I want people to keep in mind will not be known to those around Ellen until after her death. So on December 18, 2010, this is a little more than a month before her death, someone using Ellen's computer. And I purposely changed this. So if you go to crimetimelines.com which is has a wealth of information on this particular case and a wealth of information on some other cases as well, that website probably has the most information that you can find on the Ellen Greenberg case. Now, I used their timeline, but I overlapped it with a couple of other timelines that are found online as well. So we would have the ability to kind of triple check those sources and that information. But one thing that irritated me a little bit, Captain, with the timelines that I was able to find online, is they often say that Ellen searched these terms.

[Sam Goldberg]

Right?

[Nick]

I don't think that's fair. What we do know is someone searched the terms that we're about to discuss using Ellen's computer. It's reasonable to say that Ellen searched these terms, but it's not factual. It's not proven 100%. So on December 18, 2010, someone using Ellen's computer searched the terms suffocation and suicide methods. It's important to note here that she does have her own computer. So she's living with her fiance, but he has his own computer as well.

[Sam Goldberg]

Right. But sometimes when you're living with somebody, you have a computer that the whole house uses.

[Nick]

Now, back to Ellen asking her parents. This is around the same time that she asked her parents or mentioned to her parents the thought of moving back home, back to Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. They thought this was odd, giving her impending marriage. And like you said, she's already living there with her fiance. They say that Ellen told them that this had nothing to do with her fiance. Now, around the same time, her family urged her to seek professional help. So Ellen goes and sees a psychiatrist on three occasions that we know of who prescribed for her Klonopin and Ambien. Klonopin for the anxiety and panic attacks, and Ambien for her insomnia. Again, was she suffering? We've already mentioned anxiety. There had been no mention of panic attacks up until this moment and no mention of insomnia up until this moment. But I'm, I'm going to make the assumption here, Captain. If the doctor prescribed these medications for this purpose, then these were things that she was experiencing and suffering through.

[Sam Goldberg]

Well, and the difficult thing with any mental illness is we don't know exactly how the medication is going to affect each individual patient. It could make the situation better, but it could make the situation worse. And most of the time when doctors are prescribing new medications to help with mental issues, they will say, hey, if you're feeling worse because of this, let me know.

[Nick]

Yeah, and the insomnia thing is scary for me to think about too, because we don't know to what degree is this. Is it simply, I'm having trouble falling asleep, I'm having trouble staying asleep, or is it straight up like the Machinist movie, where the guy doesn't sleep for days and then it becomes weeks and even longer than that. And I mean, you can only imagine the extremes that one would experience if they were not getting any sleep at all.

[Sam Goldberg]

Well, like I've said many times on this show, I think we need to talk about mental health more openly and honestly. And anytime somebody has reached out to me and said, hey, you've talked about on the show, could you give me any advice? I'd say four things. Hydration, sleep, diet, exercise, just moving. Doesn't have to be going for a run, but maybe going for a walk. But like I said, sleep is so important. And anybody that has dealt with distressors or any mental illness, you could be having a horrible day, maybe you're having panic attacks, you're having anxiety, you're having crying spells. You get a good night's sleep. Sometimes that can fix everything. So if you're having problems with your sleep, that could amplify the mental illness.

[Nick]

And I don't know if you have any familiarity with these two drugs that we just discussed, but I believe they're both technically a narcotic, that they're at that level now. I did take Klonopin very briefly. I was prescribed it. And my. The way my body reacted to it was I felt like I had just shotgunned about four or five beers. Like I felt buzzed when I would take one. And I didn't like the feeling. And for that reason, I was taken off of it. Like you said earlier, a good doctor will say, tell me how this feels or tell me what you're experiencing early on. So if this isn't right for you, we can switch you to something else. Ambien. I've never taken. I've. I. But I know a lot of individuals that have taken Ambien and they've described it to me. And again, everybody's body is different and chemistries are different, but the way that it's described to me is that they would go into a very weird, like, high zombie, like state for just a few minutes before going completely under and asleep. But that's as much familiarity I have with either of these two drugs now. Sometime around the holidays, Ellen Greenberg began to change for the worse. According to those closest to her, she was anxious, overwhelmed at work, less eager to appear in photographs. The work thing I find to be a little strange because I have heard and read plenty of people saying how much she enjoyed being a teacher and how much she loved teaching the kids that she taught and she loved the school. She could be going through changes or, or the. Or the environment could be changing itself. She did talk to a cousin about moving into her guest room, but didn't say why. She asked her father if she could come home to Paris, Harrisburg, but didn't say why. He told her to see a psychiatrist. We talked about that. And her mother came to visit her, concerned. Yeah, around this time, too, trying to find out what was wrong. But she felt that Ellen wasn't, Wasn't being forthcoming with, with all the information that she was holding back. Look, look, if. Because suicide is one of the things we'll be talking about in this episode and, and throughout this case, we have to understand that that is not just a real possibility. It would be a ruling at some point. We can't say exactly what it is that Ellen was experiencing or if she even understood it for herself, especially if this ends up being a suicide case.

[Sam Goldberg]

Yeah, I mean, that's. To me, the definition of mental illness is having a hard time processing what your mind is putting yourself through and.

[Nick]

Maybe not even understanding your own emotions, your own feelings, your own thoughts.

[Sam Goldberg]

Right. Because if you understood them and you were able to control them, that's not mental illness.

[Nick]

I'm going to fast forward a little bit here, Captain to January 8, 2011. This is when Ellen texts her mom saying, I'm starting the medication. So she abbreviates some of this. I'm starting the med. I know you don't understand, but I can't keep living with feeling this way. End quote. Then two days later, on the 10th, someone on her computer, on Ellen's computer, someone searches the terms quick death or I'm sorry, term quick death. And someone opened an article on euthanasia and browsed a website about painless suicide. On January 22, Ellen sent out her save the date cards for the wedding. And she was helping her close friend with her friend's upcoming wedding. On that day, they go shopping for bridesmaids dresses. While looking for dresses, Ellen just starts crying uncontrollably. And she tells her friend, I'm sorry, I know I'm not myself, but I'll get it together.

[Sam Goldberg]

Let me just put this out there. And, and maybe you'll agree, maybe you'll disagree, but even if you're marrying your best friend, even if you're in a relationship that has been very positive towards you, some people get emotional or have some confusion. That's why we have the term cold feet. Right. Because it's the death of the single self. And now you're entering a partnership where a lot of people break up. Boyfriends, girlfriends, they break up. Relationships don't last forever, but you're making a commitment for a relationship to last forever. So I do think that there is some society or family pressure that once you're in that committed relationship as a marriage, that maybe that people just feel more pressure to work out a bad situation. But there's a lot of people that. And we don't know their relationship situation because we're not in that relationship behind closed doors. But there, there's many people that get engaged to somebody that they're still questioning do they want to be with, because sometimes in that moment when you're being proposed to you, you think the only option is to say yes, because maybe you're not sure that you want to marry them, but you are sure that you don't want to break up with them. So this can be a very stressful time. And anybody that has married somebody and that marriage has been very bad will often talk. I kind of knew this stuff beforehand. I wish I would have never married them.

[Nick]

The thing I was concerned about here too, Captain, is the living situation. Because to me, I'm trying to look for what is the biggest change in this person's life. And I would want to find what is the biggest change in their lifestyle prior to their death. Regardless if it's a suicide or a homicide, I would always want to try to figure that out. So in this situation, it appears to me, you know, she's with Sam for quite some time before they. They get engaged. Did they live together prior to this new apartment? It doesn't sound that way to me. And she's had her job for quite some time. So the biggest change to me in her life that I see is not her relationship, it's not her work, it's simply where she lives. And it might be her and Sam living together for the first time. And there are a lot of people out there that are great together when they can go back to their own apartment or go stay on their own from time to time. And then there are a lot of people that just simply don't work once you put them together and make them live under the same roof.

[Sam Goldberg]

Well, and just to correct you, and I think that is a change in. In their relationship.

[Nick]

Yes.

[Sam Goldberg]

So she has a change in her living situation, but there is a change in the relationship. They went from boyfriend and girlfriend that live separately to boyfriend and girlfriend or fiance's, which. What a stupid word. That are living together and how many. Well, I've heard this from men and women. Oh, they were so clean and so organized. Every time I go over to their apartment, it was so clean and organized. Now we live together and they're just a slob. So things do change when you start living together?

[Nick]

Oh yeah. When you're dating, it's like a job interview for, for most of it. But once you live together, it's like you've hired the person and now you figure out how they really conduct themselves on a day to day basis. And just like at work, you might not approve.

[Sam Goldberg]

We're like fine wines, we just get better with time. But back to your point, there's a major change in her life and it's not just this engagement, but it's the change in the living situation. And it's a change in the relationship situation.

[Nick]

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[Sam Goldberg]

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[Nick]

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[Captain]

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[Sam Goldberg]

All right, cheers mates. Thanks for joining us Here in the garage. Tall cans in the air. Party to the people in the back windows to the walls. Cheers Colonel.

[Nick]

Cheers to you Captain. We're going to start on the day in question. January 26th, 2011. Let's get right into it. At 7am Ellen speaks with her mother. Around noon, Ellen received a text from a friend that says you're getting out early. To which Ellen replies, thank goodness. So this is in regard to the school being closed that day due to the weather, which we now know. At 1:15pm Ellen Greenberg left her job as the school closed due to the severe weather. So she's leaving at 1:15pm she stops for gas on her way home using her visa card. At 2:30 she makes a call to a local restaurant. This one's. This marker is a little strange here because she doesn't order anything. We don't know what the call is in regards to.

[Sam Goldberg]

It could just be to find out.

[Nick]

If they're open or if they're still going to be delivering even with the snow. She could be planning on what are they going to do for dinner type situation. And we'll call back with the order later. At 2:33pm Ellen called someone. This call lasted about 30 seconds. This call was placed from her apartment and we do know that she was doing conducting some work from home after being sent home early because she used her computer to remotely enter grades for her students. A little after 2:30 that day, at 3:47, Ellen sends her final text. We can give a little bit of background here on this text. From what I understand, this text was a back and forth with a friend of hers. Alicia Young is the woman's name and the text seemed to Go back and forth for about five to 10 minutes in which Ellen is mentioning to her friend ongoing trouble at work or ongoing trouble with her position as a teacher. According to this friend and others, they all agree, saying it in chorus that Ellen was experiencing a lot of stress and this was due to her work. We should give a shout out to CNN has done some great investigating reporting on this and I mean actual investigation on this case as well. Over the years. At 4:45pm Ellen's fiance, Sam Goldberg left the couple's home. We know this to be true because there they live in this very modern apartment building and they have a gym, fitness area in this apartment building. And so we do have security cameras that, oh, they are actually up and running for this case.

[Sam Goldberg]

Surprise.

[Nick]

Yeah, they're up and running. And we have surveillance from the apartment building which captures Sam walking toward the gym, the on site gym location for the building. Later he's going to tell police that he went down to the gym. He believes it's 4:50pm so let's say 4:45 to 4:50pm and then uses the elliptical for about a half an hour before he's going to return to the apartment. Another marker Here is at 4:46pm Ellen uses her laptop. Well, if we had more concise information on this case. And again, this is triple checked, these sources for this timeline have all been triple checked. When did he leave that apartment? Because if you have a timestamp of 4:46, someone is using Ellen's laptop and Sam left at 4:45. That's a lot different than if he left at 4:50.

[Sam Goldberg]

Right.

[Nick]

Just that matter of five minutes could mean the world. In this case. What we can say is between 4:45 and 4:50pm he did leave the apartment. What we can say is at 4:46 someone uses Ellen's laptop. If it was Ellen and Sam had already left the apartment, then it would appear that she is alive and well. After he exited their apartment at 5:30pm Sam exits the gym on the first floor of the Venice Loft Apartments building when he goes to try to get back into his apartment. According to Sam, he says he couldn't enter the apartment because the security latch was engaged from the inside. Despite using his key and banging on the door, Ellen did not respond or unlock it. So the lock, anybody that stayed in a hotel or anybody that's ever used one of the chain locks on a door, the best way to describe this lock is it's, it's toward the top portion of the door, well above the handle. And you simply flip over the metal mechanism so that the door, when unlocked regularly, you can open it up just a little bit like you would with a chain lock that would be up there. It would open up just a inch or two, but you cannot open the door entirely. So I've. From the information I found here, Captain, some that's not completely accurate with one. Another is, some versions state that Sam was using a traditional key and other versions state that it was more like a hotel where he had a key card to get in, but then couldn't open the door all the way because that security latch was engaged. Right from about 5:32pm till 5:54pm we have Sam, who is trying to communicate with Ellen. Most sources say that he's just sending text. I did find at least one source that said he also emailed her, but I could never find, I could never find any information more about the emails. But let's go through some of these texts. So over the course of about 22 minutes, he sent her nine messages. If we are to believe Sam's story that all these messages go to her phone from Sam's phone while he's outside in the hallway trying to get into the apartment. The apartment door is locked with the security latch and she lay dead on their kitchen floor. At this time, if. If everything is how he says it was. So one of the texts just simply says, hello, like question mark. Another says, open the door. These are all very quick, rapid texts. Then there's another one, what are you doing? One that says, I'm getting pissed. Hello, question mark. Another says, you better have an excuse. The next text says, what the fuck? Next text, you have no idea. Does the you have no idea one sound and I'm getting pissed and you have no idea sound a little threatening to me? Those ones sound a little threatening to me. And so I had a little bit of a concern here. But again, I guess we have to remind ourselves if in fact these texts are authentic. We do know these texts are sent. That's not a question. But if they are authentic, meaning that they were sent in the heat of the moment and he is locked out side of the door and does not know what's going on. Whether we agree with him, being angered by the situation or not is neither here nor there.

[Sam Goldberg]

Yeah, I think in this case, and maybe one of the reasons why it's so talked about or discussed is because there's probably five or six points in this case that you could go round and round about and talk for talk about for hours. I Mean, first of all, when you're looking at these cases, you're going to look at them through your own lens. To me, going to the gym for 30 minutes, that's not in my wheelhouse. It's hard enough to get motivated to go to the gym. If I'm going to go, I'm staying longer than 30 minutes. But I've also never lived in this modern style apartment complex that has a gym facility on hand. And so then you go, well, I guess when I've gone to hotels, I've used the gym and maybe it didn't take me as long. I'm just going to get a quick walk in or run or whatever you're trying to do. And that's what he does with the. The elliptical. So then he comes back, he is locked out, whether he has his key on him or not. To me, that doesn't matter because, hey, honey, I'm going down to the gym for a quick workout. He's back in about 30 minutes. Even if the door wasn't latch locked, then where are you? You're supposed to let me in. So if these text messages are false, if this is staged, part of the staging. Yeah. To me, this is either just genius level staging because you have a dead individual by knife. So then you go, well, you're going to stage text messages that paint you in a negative light. I almost think that if this was staged by a narcissist or a horrible piece of shit, that the text messages would read more like, hey, I can't get in. Are you okay? What is happening? You know, I'm concerned. You're making me worry. But I think he does what most people do. Hey, you're supposed to be in the apartment. What the f is going on? Like, I'm sitting out here. What's the first thing you do after going to the gym? You take a shower and you change your clothes. But on top of that, he's stuck outside in the hallway. Where is he supposed to go? There could. There could have been a thought. If these are legit text, there could be a thought in his head of, did she somehow lock this door and leave? Like, what the hell is going on? And because the door is latched, he has to assume that she's in the apartment because it's not impossible to leave your apartment and get that lock to latch. But it'd be very tricky. Or there would have to be some circumstance where if you slam the door hard enough that maybe the latch locks on its own. But we have nobody reporting that. That's the case. So you'd have to use some trickery to be able to get out of the apartment and latch that door locked. So in his mind, you're inside. And I, look, I just don't think this is an unreasonable text or I don't even think this points to him in a, in a horrible negative light of like, I'm getting pissed off. And I think when he. What was the last text that you read?

[Nick]

You have no idea.

[Sam Goldberg]

I think that to me, that's implying you have no idea how pissed off I am right now.

[Nick]

Oh, yeah, that's. That's exactly the way I take it too. And that's why I, that's, if so, reviewing other people's concerns about the text, reviewing other people's thoughts about his short workout. I wanted to address these issues right here because I don't find any problem with a 30, 35 minute workout. And I, and I get what you're saying. I agree with what you're saying as well.

[Sam Goldberg]

Right.

[Nick]

It's a large part of that is it's a matter of. For those that venture off and go to a gym, the captain's right, it can take a lot of motivation and a lot of, a lot of gusto to get your butt all the way to that gym. And once you're there, because you have to commute, Whether it be five minutes, 15 minutes or 20 or so, you are a little more motivated to stay there and kind of get things done. Now, for those of you that have built your own gym in your garage or your basement, you know that, hey, sometimes if you got 15 minutes or 20 minutes and you're kind of bored or you have a lot of energy, you might go down there and, and hit the bench for a quick 10 minutes or, or, or do a exercise for a brief period of time, he. The gym is in the same building as him. So I don't find any question with the short amount of time at the gym. I don't really find, I don't have a big question mark about these text messages as well because I think what people were trying to look into is his reaction. Okay. So if he's reacting this way and he's angered and he's threatening her, you know, you have no idea or I'm getting pissed.

[Sam Goldberg]

Right.

[Nick]

If you look at that as a threat and you can, I, I would agree with that. However, I think what people were trying to look for within these texts is does this tell us about their relationship? Does this tell us if he was abusive to her prior does this give us any insight into how he conducts himself in that relationship?

[Sam Goldberg]

Well, the main reason that I was bringing up the questioning, the 30 minute exercise is because I'm trying to point out that we have to be clear every time that we're looking into these cases to recognize that we know we're looking at this case through our own lens. So sometimes we have to take this a step back.

[Nick]

Well, and we have, we have the added advantage of looking at this retrospectively. Right. And, and here's what I mean by that, because there are people that have great opinions that said, well, my reaction. And again, everything's not relative to how you conduct yourself or your personality. But I, but it's been stated that, well, wouldn't his reaction, shouldn't it be more of concern and more of worry rather than anger? And here's where I'll put a little bit of spin on this. I'm not saying his actions, his. His reaction is, is great or well thought out. I'm simply saying I don't know that we can deduce anything real from these texts, because what if she's locked him out in the past? Right. There would be nothing, to me more aggravating than having a home and not being 100% in control of when I can enter that home or not. If she's locked him out before by accident or because she was upset about something.

[Sam Goldberg]

Right.

[Nick]

Or what have you. Maybe he's been in this situation before where she, and I'm not trying to victim blame here, where maybe she overreacted or locked him out unnecessarily. And so he's, he's kind of jumping to that conclusion and he's angered right away, like, what are you doing? I just went down to the gym for a bit. So I don't think we can really figure a whole lot out here. And I don't know that we should really be concerned at any high level that he seems to be angered rather than worried. Because keep in mind, we are retrospectively looking at this. We have the advantage of knowing that somebody searched out suicidal terms on her computer prior to this. If it were in fact Ellen that did this, does he even know about that? Right. If, if he's not seeing this side of her. We have her friends and family saying that there was a, a change in her, a great change in her in the winter of 2010, according to those same people. At least the family's told that it's not, it doesn't have anything to do with the fiance. Was she able to Hide and mask this from him. And therefore, he. He wasn't worried right away. He wasn't concerned right away. It was more of a. An anger thing. I. That's. That's what's missing. So also, you know, we love going through these timelines because they are paramount to every case. But what is missing from this case, in my opinion, is what questions were asked early on in this investigation, and did we ask the right questions? Because with as much information and a wealth of information that there is out there about this case, there are things missing from this investigation. There's information that is not there. And I think that it's not there because these questions either weren't asked or they weren't asking the right questions. Because my first concern as a detective, if I found this information on her computer, I want to know from Sam, what was she. What. How was she behaving to you? Did she. Did you notice a change in her as well? And if you did, why weren't you concerned?

[Sam Goldberg]

Well, and we hear from her family and we hear from friends, this idea of, I want to leave this place, maybe I can stay with you. I want to come back home. To me, that's, again, indicative of something's going wrong with her work, but also something's going wrong with her living situation. The relationship might be fine, but she just might not like that. That apartment, for whatever reason. But is she communicating this with her fiance?

[Nick]

So we gotta point this out here because we. Whatever happened has to go down either prior to him leaving the apartment or upon his return. Because that's one thing that I think people that have analyzed this case are kind of missing. There is enough time upon his return that something could have happened after the gym. It's. It's a very small window of time. But there is. There is a window.

[Sam Goldberg]

Well, no. And the. And these text messages, then it's a different light. Because if I come back from the gym and I'm locked out, right, And I'm a little upset. I just. I just finished my workout. I want to get in, take a shower, unwind for the day. Why is the door locked? And this is where the investigation. You have to turn over every stone. You can't just simply look at this situation and go, well, it's possible that she committed suicide, so I'm not going to look into these other things. Is there any evidence that she was in the shower? Is it possible that she accidentally locked the latch and then went into the shower? This making him angry. Do we have any signs of abuse in the relationship do we have? You see what I'm saying? Because is this enough of a reason for them to get into an argument and then she stabbed 20 times and dies? Maybe if this guy is hot tempered. Because what we do know is he can't get into the apartment so he has to go down to security. This is, this is a very odd scenario because we have this murdered individual or an individual that committed suicide. And we can't really put the onus on that there could be another killer because not only do we have cameras that actually are working, but we have security guards or concierge, which a lot of times in these buildings they're one and the same.

[Nick]

Yes.

[Sam Goldberg]

And we have, so we have cameras working and we have security. So he has to go down and talk to security and to say, hey, I can't get into my apartment. The latch is locked.

[Nick]

Yeah. And so that is the scenario here. Right. We have either either he killed his fiance or she killed herself. There's no alternative suspect here really to be discussed that, that we can believe at this time. Right. There's never been anybody ever else pointed toward. And then the fact that there are surveillance, security cameras is highly suggestive that it is one of these two scenarios. So I want to go through some information here that is paramount to the timeline itself. So we do know that Sam's phone is silent from 3:40pm until about 5:30pm on the day that Ellen died. Now we already mentioned that we know that he left the apartment sometime between 4:45 and 4:50 to go down to the gym for a quick workout on the elliptical. So that means there's no activity on his phone for approximately one hour prior to him leaving for the on site gym. Some people wonder if this is suspicious. It could be. I mean, it means that we have about over an hour that we know that the both are in the apartment at the same time and he's not occupied at least by his phone. So what could he be busy doing? I should, we should point out though too that from his phone data that's been collected, there was a gap the prior day from 4pm to about 7pm so this may be part of his routine as well, that he's just not busy on his phone between these particular hours. Now he's active again at 5:30. That's because according to his story, he can't get into the apartment. That is when he starts texting his girlfriend. And that we know that those texts, it's about 22 minutes over the course of 22 minutes. So that would be from 3:30. I'm sorry, from 5:32pm to 5:54pm now, kind of backing up that this corroborates a portion of his story or at least gives some ear witnesses, because we do have neighbors that say between the time frame of 5:30 and 6pm on that day, we did hear Sam shouting out Ellen's name several times. What's interesting about that to me is I can infer from the situation that if, if ear witness can hear one thing, they probably can hear most things.

[Sam Goldberg]

Right.

[Nick]

So they're not hearing screams of bloody murder at the same time either. So it would appear to me, based off of this information, the limited information is that if he did it, something happened prior to him leaving that apartment.

[Sam Goldberg]

If you're going to plan out a murder and you know how to get out of the apartment and latch that lock that seems to be only able to be locked from the inside, then just think about that for a second. I'm going to commit this murder. Nobody can see inside the apartment. So as long as nobody hears her, I can simply go out the door, make sure it latches, go for a quick workout. When I come back, the door's locked. Go to security. Hey, my door's locked. I can't get in. So therefore it's impossible that I killed her because the door was locked.

[Nick]

Yeah, There, there was a statement that he made that he believed that either she was taking a nap or maybe hopped in the shower like you had said, or was busy working on her laptop with her headphones on.

[Sam Goldberg]

Right.

[Nick]

And so if, if that truly is what he thought, then he thought this was just some kind of accident. And then the. That makes sense that he's getting angered by her silly mistake, but.

[Sam Goldberg]

Right, but again, the problem is if you have ear witnesses to him trying to get her attention, trying to get her to unlock the door, which I'm guessing even if he's pissed off, he's like, well, I got neighbors, so he's not going to be super loud. The, the problem with him attacking her is that we have no ear witnesses to it, to any kind of attack.

[Nick]

If he was staging it though, why not make a bigger spectacle about the door being locked?

[Sam Goldberg]

Well, he went down to security and said it's locked and, and he knows that's going to be on film.

[Nick]

No, I, I know that. I'm just saying, I, I think that if he were thinking this through and really wanted to staged some things, that this, he could have made a bigger spectacle about the door being locked and And I do have, I'm not, I'm not going to lie. I do have a problem with his statement of, well, maybe she was in the shower, maybe she was taking a nap, maybe she was working with her headphones on. Again, one of the things that I'm trying to point out here is I don't know the extent of this investigation and I question the level of investigating that was conducted during that investigation.

[Sam Goldberg]

Right.

[Nick]

And I think that anyone should because there's a lot of question marks on their investigation. Air quotes, investigation. One of the questions I would have asked to Sam, one, have you been locked out before? Two, have you, did you know she was experiencing these anxiety and emotional problems? Did you have concern. And three, you're actually able to open up that door even though it's just an inch or so. What did you hear? Could you, when you're texting her or trying to call her phone, did you hear her phone ringing? Did you hear a sound notification that she had received a text?

[Sam Goldberg]

Well, my other question would be if you have been locked out before, where were you able to get in without getting help?

[Nick]

Well, and let's take that a step further. You had said prior that it might be incredibly difficult to lock the door either by accident or from the outside. But you leave, you're leaving that as a possibility. So let's pretend that that is a possibility, if that is a possibility. That's why I'm asking that last question. What, what told you that she was inside of the apartment? Sam, I get it, that maybe it was just a gut feeling or it was the only thing in the moment that seemed logical. But. And I would accept that answer. But I want to know, was there further indication to you, Sam, that she absolutely was inside that apartment before? Because it goes from text messages to busting down the door to breaking into the apartment.

[Sam Goldberg]

Did he check to see if her car was still at the apartments?

[Captain]

Right.

[Sam Goldberg]

I mean, I also think it's odd too because I believe he reached out to her mother at some point during this before he broke into the house. Is that a common thing? How much communication on the regular did he have with her mother? Some people are become very close with, you know, this is going to become his mother in law. Is this somebody that he's become close with that he feels comfortable texting or calling for little things? Because if I got locked out of my apartment, unless my future mother in law has a key to get in, I don't see any reason to contact her. Now I could see, well, I busted in the door to get in the apartment and I didn't find her in the apartment. So then I called you you because, because that might throw up some red flags in my brain.

[Nick]

So that is a little unclear to me here, Captain. The information I have says that he is calls Sandy after breaking into the apartment. But again that might not be 100 accurate. That's just the information I have. But what is interesting too is that there is a call from Sam to outside sources that we don't, we do not have a, a marker on our timeline for so do. At an unknown time, Sam Goldberg called, came in Schwartzman to let him know that he was locked out of his apartment. So what we can do we can infer based on the sequence of events that this call had to take place before 6pm before breaking into the the apartment and after 5:30 once he's aware that he's locked out. This to me, I'm with you. I, I think that the phone call to the outside person at this point doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. He calls Cayman Schwarzman and again, we don't have exactly the time on this now based off of what came in, came in later says again we can kind of figure out the when this call took place because he says that he suggested to Sam, why don't you go down to security and ask the doorman for help. So at 6pm Sam does go downstairs to the lobby requesting help from doorman Phil Hanton. The doorman tells Sam that it is against policy for him to break down the doors, but he can call Ellen for him. So this on these timelines here. Captain 1 Another part that I've not appreciated is how brief this statement is because it sounds. This almost implies that he goes down there and immediately is like we need to break down this door. I've reviewed some other information from this Phil Hanton and from others that were there that day and they, they said that it was much more of a conversation than, than right away like requesting that we break down the door. It's like, right, hey, is there any way for us to get in? He asked if there was some kind of tool that they could use to undo the lock from the outside when all those options were exhausted is when the conversation turned to breaking down the door.

[Sam Goldberg]

Right. And I think this is important because we have individuals that don't know him personally and they're not saying, hey, this guy comes down, he's huffing and puffing and seems to be having some anxiety or he's not panicking. They're saying, don't know the guy. But the way I read the situation is this guy's locked down. He's just trying to figure out a way to get back in.

[Nick]

At 6:07 and then again at 6:10pm, Ellen's cell phone receives two phone calls. This is from the Venice loft's apartment. And of course nobody answers. So they did as they said. They said, well we can at least try to call her. The doorman is offering to call the police. At 6:14, Sam Goldberg calls Camion Schwarzman again, this time to tell him that the security guard could not help him get into the apartment. At 6:23pm, Sam Goldberg is seen on surveillance camera entering the elevator. At 6:26pm he answers a phone call from his cousin and uncle. Okay, so Schwarzman is his cousin. Camion Schwarzman's father is an attorney. His cousin and uncle. On this phone call, tell him you should call 91 1. At 6:28, Sam Goldberg is seen on surveillance going upstairs at 6:30. This is where things get a little dicey. At 6:30 it is said that James Schwarzman, the uncle and his son, the cousin, instructed Sam to force his way in to the door and to break into the apartment. Sam says that he stayed on the phone when he broke in, broke the door and forced his way into the apartment. And then seconds later, James and his cousin came in, said that they heard Sam scream to which then they instructed him to call 91 1. There are timelines and plenty of articles out there that say that this marker isn't accurate. Okay? Not that he didn't break down the door at about 6:30. Not that he didn't call 911 shortly after. The statements that are made is that the timing is off just enough that he wasn't actually on the phone with anybody when he forced his way into the apartment. To me, this is such a finite amount of time, such a small window. I don't know that we can fully inaccurately state matter of factly one way or another if he was on the phone with these two at the time that he busted the door or not. I mean, we're talking. This is really breaking down it by second by second. If you start looking at these timeline comparisons, I frankly don't know that that means anything. It does to me. It doesn't point me one direction or the other, murder or suicide. If he happened to be on the phone with anybody at all when he busted into the apartment, not at that very moment.

[Sam Goldberg]

Yeah, I don't think it's definitive. But if I was talking to my cousin and my uncle, and I didn't think it was like that big of a deal. I'm just trying to get into my apartment and they tell me to bust down the door while I'm hanging up the phone and trying to bust down the door. But I think by, if I'd have to lean one way or the other, by having your cousin and your uncle, which is a, which is a lawyer, on the phone with you when you find your dead girlfriend. To me, that leans towards staging.

[Nick]

Yes. I question why he's calling anybody outside of that building in that moment at all, regardless of who. If it was her mother, we know he talked to his cousin and his uncle. I just, that's not where my head would go. I, if, if anybody outside of that building needed to be made aware of that situation in my mind in that moment would be police. And that's it.

[Sam Goldberg]

Yeah, but it's establishing his whereabout and it's establishing basically his demeanor at that time, so.

[Nick]

Or is it asking an attorney for help before the cops get there?

[Sam Goldberg]

Right. And again, because it's family members, we don't know what he said to them or what he didn't. We don't know. But even just the calls to the cousin or if it's a call to her mother or it's talking to the security guard, you're. You're establishing your whereabouts, you're establishing your demeanor, and that's essentially establishing an alibi. And so if it's staging this, this guy is pretty sophisticated.

[Nick]

At 6:36pm emergency responders arrive on the scene. And at 6:40, she's pronounced dead. She had 20 stab wounds, with 10 of the wounds to the back of her neck area in the back of her head. At 7:30pm, James and Camion Schwartzman arrived at the Venice Lofts apartments. This after they say that having received multiple calls from Sam Goldberg, the medical examiner is requested at 7:31. So at the scene at this time, we would have police on the scene. One thing that's troubling here is of record, on the record, there's. We don't have detectives showing up to the scene until 8:20, approximately 8:20pm and the reason why I'm citing that here, Captain, is one, it was like eventually, once they all arrived, it was like six detectives on the scene. But I think it's key here to point out, yes, we have police here. Yes, we have. The decedent is here. Yes, we have the person that owns the apartment with the decedent is there. We have some of the key people, but what we also have at the scene 50 minutes prior to detectives being on the scene is an attorney and the cousin of the fiance.

[Sam Goldberg]

So much more to get to. So many thoughts, so many opinions. Stick around for part two.

[Nick]

And until then, be good, be kind, and don't litter. SA Foreign.

[Captain]

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