Mysterious Death of Ellen Greenberg /// Part 2

Summary

Episode Summary: "Mysterious Death of Ellen Greenberg /// Part 2"

In this compelling second installment of the "Mysterious Death of Ellen Greenberg," hosts Nic and the Captain delve deeper into the baffling circumstances surrounding Ellen Greenberg's untimely demise. Released on February 26, 2025, this episode meticulously examines the investigative missteps, conflicting autopsy reports, and the relentless pursuit by Ellen's family to uncover the truth. Below is a detailed breakdown of the episode's key discussions, insights, and conclusions.

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1. Recap of Previous Episode

Nic opens the conversation by summarizing the events leading up to Ellen's discovery. He states:

"When we left off yesterday there, Captain, we had already placed an attorney, James Schwarzman, in the apartment with the fiance, Sam." ([03:17])

This sets the stage for exploring the subsequent developments in the investigation.

2. Initial Investigation and Compromised Scene

The hosts express significant concern over the handling of the crime scene:

Captain: "We have a lack of professionalism, I think, when it comes to law enforcement." ([04:26])

Nic highlights the problematic entry of the attorney into the apartment before detectives arrived, indicating a compromised scene. He emphasizes the importance of preserving a crime scene to ensure a thorough investigation.

3. Discovery of Ellen Greenberg

Nic provides a detailed description of how Ellen was found:

"Ellen was seated in the corner of the kitchen with coagulated blood running horizontally from her nose to her ear." ([04:30])

He notes the absence of external disturbances like loud noises or screams, raising questions about the nature of her death.

4. Sam Goldberg's Statement and Contradictions

Sam Goldberg, Ellen's fiancé, provided a statement to the police detailing his actions:

"He tells the officers who responded to the 911 call that he had left the couple's sixth-floor apartment... approximately 45 minutes later he returned... and forced open the door." ([07:26])

Nic finds discrepancies in Sam's account, particularly regarding his assertion that security personnel accompanied him, which surveillance footage later contradicts.

5. Autopsy Findings and Expert Opinions

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to scrutinizing the autopsy reports:

• Multiple Stab Wounds: Ellen suffered 20 stab wounds to critical areas, including the chest, abdomen, and neck.

Nic: "There's 20 of them... and 10 of these stab wounds are not where you would anticipate finding on a person who committed suicide." ([10:28])

• Bruising Patterns: Evidence of bruises at different stages of healing suggests possible prior abuse, conflicting with the suicide narrative.

Nic: "Multiple bruises at different stages of resolution, suggesting a pattern of physical altercations or abuse occurring over time." ([16:57])

Experts like Dr. Cyril Wecht and Dr. Henry Lee reviewed the case, both asserting strong suspicions of homicide despite the official suicide ruling.

6. Issues with Search and Seizure

The episode delves into the controversial access granted to Sam's uncle, James Schwarzman:

Nic: "Arrangements were made for crime scene cleanup to clean up the apartment on that same day, the day after the death." ([10:28])

This premature cleanup potentially destroyed critical evidence, hindering the investigation and raising ethical questions about law enforcement's handling of the case.

7. Family's Struggle to Overturn the Ruling

Ellen's family has been actively fighting to have the suicide ruling re-evaluated. Despite overwhelming evidence suggesting foul play, the majority of such cases remain closed due to procedural oversights.

Nic: "I have only seen one case out of the thousands... with this obsession of true crime." ([36:24])

The family's efforts have brought renowned forensic pathologists to review Ellen's case, further strengthening the argument for homicide.

8. Comparisons with High-Profile Cases

The hosts draw parallels with the O.J. Simpson case, highlighting systemic issues in criminal investigations:

Nic: "You have four detectives... they're all saying some. They're saying different things." ([45:21])

This comparison underscores the potential for investigative errors and the critical need for meticulous evidence handling.

9. Concluding Thoughts and Future Teasers

Nic and the Captain conclude by emphasizing the complexity of the Ellen Greenberg case, pointing out that each piece of evidence only deepens the mystery.

Captain: "This case just lends itself to something that might be evidence, just lends itself to more questioning." ([57:26])

They tease the next episode, promising to continue unraveling the tangled web of inconsistencies and unanswered questions surrounding Ellen's death.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Nic on Compromised Scene:
  "We've seen other situations where people enter a scene. This, to me, is showing me right away that we have a compromised scene." ([04:16])

• Captain on Law Enforcement Professionalism:
  "We have a lack of professionalism, I think, when it comes to law enforcement." ([04:26])

• Nic on Autopsy Validity:
  "We cannot trust the autopsy findings in this case." ([39:33])

• Captain on Investigation Flaws:
  "But what he can't fake in all this is the communication that she's having with friends and family." ([52:41])

• Nic on Evidence Tampering:
  "The problem then I thought when finding that at first, Captain, I would be like, well, this is easy. If one of the wounds, at least one, was committed post mortem, then this is an open and shut case. This is a homicide." ([50:50])

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Final Thoughts

"Mysterious Death of Ellen Greenberg /// Part 2" serves as a critical examination of potential investigative failures and the challenges faced by families seeking justice. Nic and the Captain adeptly navigate through complex forensic details, legal missteps, and procedural anomalies, painting a vivid picture of a case shrouded in mystery and controversy. As they prepare for the forthcoming third part, listeners are left contemplating the fragility of justice systems and the enduring quest for truth in the face of adversity.

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Stay tuned for Part 3 of the "Mysterious Death of Ellen Greenberg" series, where Nic and the Captain continue their in-depth exploration of this perplexing case.

Transcript

[Captain]

Don't miss the Hulu original docu series.

[Nick]

Devil in the Family the Fall of.

[Captain]

Ruby Frankie My wife created a YouTube channel thumbs up.

[Nick]

Subscribe but only what we wanted to show.

[Captain]

I'm still recording a three part series of that. She said the children were demonically possessed.

[Nick]

Get out.

[Captain]

That blew the powder keg. Ruby crossed a line to psychotic 9 online emergency.

[Nick]

Open the door.

[Captain]

Hulu's Devil in the Family the Fall of Ruby Frankie all episodes available February 27th streaming on Hulu.

[Nick]

The last thing you want to hear when you need your auto insurance most is a robot with countless irrelevant menu options. Which is why with USAA Auto insurance, you'll get great service that is easy and reliable, all at the touch of a button. Get a quote today Restrictions app. Welcome to True Crime Garage wherever you are, whatever you were doing, thanks for listening. I'm your host Nick and with me as always is a man who refutes chooses to die with dignity. Here is the cap and I refuse.

[Captain]

To apologize for it. It's good to be seen and good to see you. Thanks for listening. Thanks for telling a friend.

[Nick]

Today we are still sipping on this powerful and complex golden ale by the good folks over at Yards Brewing Company. This is called Gold. This is an English strong ale that pays homage to the founding father and beer brewer Thomas Jefferson. This is a recreation of his old recipe Garage Grade three and a half bottle caps out of five. And let's give some thanks and praise to our good friends for helping us out. First up, a shout out to Caroline Bryan from Benicia, California.

[Captain]

And we like to jib goes out to my buddy Morgan. I just finished his book under the Autumn Leaves. Two thumbs up. You can get that on Amazon.

[Nick]

And we would also like to give a shout out. A double fisted cheers that goes out to Ken and Lauren from the Florida Themis. And a quick reminder to everybody that has been so generous this month for the month of February we are sending all of the beer fund donations to the great folks over at Keeping Our Girls Safe. It's a wonderful organization aimed at doing exactly what the title says, Keeping all of our girls Safe. To learn more about that plus we're giving away some prizes as a thank you to everybody that helps us out with the beer fund and Keeping the Girls Safe this month. For more information, stick around for this week's recommended reading.

[Captain]

Yeah, bwr you and beer run for everything True crime. Check out truecrimegarage.com and that is enough of the business.

[Nick]

All right everybody gather round. Grab a chair. Grab a beer let's talk some true crime. When we left off yesterday there, Captain, we had already placed an attorney, James Schwarzman, in the apartment with the fiance, Sam. And we know that police are on the scene. Of course, the medical examiner has been requested and detectives are arriving on the scene. And detectives are getting there after James and Camion Schwartzman have already been allowed into the apartment, which I find to be a little troubling. We've seen other situations where people enter a scene. This, to me is showing me right away that we have a compromised scene.

[Captain]

We have a lack of professionalism, I think, when it comes to law enforcement.

[Nick]

In this case, yes. Because what's going to be paramount to the investigation is simply figuring out when did she die? When were these wounds inflicted on her? Because if this was at the time when he was at the gym, then he's not your guy. This is probably a suicide. But what police find, it's the. Where the question marks go in this case start for me right here. I mean, we. We have some things to call into question, but a lot of that has to do with personalities and relationship dynamics. These are question marks that are about the actual investigation. Now, one thing we do know is that the body's not removed for several hours. Okay. That, to me, is always a good thing. That allows detectives to do what it is that they should be doing. This allows for the scene to be properly processed. I'm always worried about a case when we find out that the body's been removed 45 minutes after everybody's on the scene. Or it also complicates a scene when the person, the victim, is removed because you're giving life saving efforts and trying to rush them off to the hospital. They don't have to do any of that here. So you would think that our investigation is starting off. Well, what we have here is I'd like to go through Sam Goldberg's statement, but I. Before we get to that, I want to get into what ems, what it's reported. The EMS says that they observed when entering the apartment, and this was it. Ellen was seated in the corner of the kitchen with coagulated blood running horizontally from her nose to her ear. And many suggesting that this positioning is indicative that she was likely initially lying flat on the ground when she was stabbed. Again, no neighbors are reporting any loud noises or arguments or screams. The only noises that they're reporting is Sam calling Ellen's name when it's believed he was attempting to gain access to the apartment. We do know from the 911 call that she likely was moved even if it's just a centimeters, but he is responding to her. We know that per the 911 call because the dispatcher is at the early part of the call encouraging to him to perform cpr. It sounds like he's going to attempt to do that, but then he discovers that there's a knife sticking out of his fiance's chest. To which the dispatcher then says that he he will not be able to to perform cpr.

[Captain]

This is another part of the case that I think you could spend hours dissecting and speculating about.

[Nick]

What we don't have to speculate about is his statement to the police. So here it goes. He tells the officers who responded to the 911 call that he had left the couple's sixth floor apartment, their building's gym at approximately 4:45pm he says approximately 45 minutes later he returned to the sixth floor but found the apartment door swing bar lock engaged from the inside. He returned to the building's lobby to try to reach Ellen via cell phone calls and text. When approximately one hour had passed without a response, Sam Goldberg said he decided to enter the apartment by force. Sam Goldberg stated that he returned to the sixth floor accompanied by a building security guard later identified as Philip Han and forced open the door. Once inside, Mr. Goldberg discovered the victim seated on the kitchen floor with her head slouched over. Sam Goldberg recounted that he immediately called 91 1. In accordance with the emergency operator's instructions, Mr. Goldberg lifted the victim's slouched head in order to perform CPR. At that moment, Mr. Goldberg discovered the knife lodged in the victim's chest. Medics arrived and pronounced the victim dead at 6:40pm that's his statement to police. What do we learn about the scene? Ellen's body is found on the hardwood kitchen floor located just inside the door entrance area. She's found with her head and some of her upper body, her shoulders resting against the lower half of white kitchen cabinets that are next to the cooking range. Her body, starting with the head is facing north and the legs west. She's wearing a zip up dark colored shirt over top of a T shirt, gray sweatpants, underwear and a light brown Ugg boots. A pair of eyeglasses are found on the floor to her right. A white towel is in her left hand. There's a hair tie or scrunchie that is on her right wrist. Other than that, there's no personal effects on the body. Inside the apartment it is noted that a strainer filled with blueberries and an orange that appears to be freshly sliced rest on the counter. Two clean knives were in the sink. So two clean knives, kitchen knives, are in the sink of the kitchen. We have a kitchen knife sticking out of the chest of our victim. This is a knife that came from the butcher's block in the kitchen of this apartment. From my understanding, that butcher block had been either moved from its original position, like it was bumped, or it was bumped and knocked over.

[Captain]

Yeah. I think this information, to me doesn't point to any answers. It just points to more questions.

[Nick]

Ellen's body was removed from the apartment at about 3am and she was removed so that an autopsy could be completed. We do know that James Schwartzman, the uncle of the fiance, Sam's uncle, called the apartment building's property manager requesting access to the apartment. This is the day after. Okay. Melissa Ware was the property manager at the time. She calls the police department because she's saying, James Schwartzman, Sam's uncle, is asking for access to the apartment. He wants to collect some of his nephew's personal belongings from the apartment. The police department told Melissa Ware that it wasn't an active crime scene, and therefore she could allow access to the uncle of the apartment. And this, the information I found, Captain, goes as far to say that the police department gave Melissa Ware, the property manager, a phone number for a crime scene cleanup crew. So not only is this not a crime scene and you can grant access to somebody, but, oh, here's. Here's a phone number for some people that come out and they clean these things up. So she calls the uncle and told him that, yes, he has access. He's allowed on the premises and can get into the apartment. And he also. She relays the Philadelphia Police Department's recommendation of the crime. Crime scene cleanup service, to which the uncle says that Sam Goldberg or Sam Goldberg's family will pay for the service. And so therefore, the property manager made arrangements with the service to come in and clean up. So arrangements were made for crime scene cleanup to clean up the apartment on that same day, the day after the death. That's horrible. That is absolutely horrible. If I'm one of. If I'm a detective there, I'm telling. Even if the police chief has got his head so far up his ass that he's allowing this to happen, which I don't think it. Even this phone call from the property manager don't. Didn't even reach these levels. I hope that it did not get to the level of a detective. I hope that that was just a. Whoever was in charge of answering the phones that day, had a really dumb answer. That's what I'm hoping here. Because if this reached any ranking official or ranking officer, or if there was a conversation behind closed doors of me and my boss, I'm telling the captain, homicide captain, I'm telling the police chief, whoever I have to talk to, give me one more day, give me one more look at that apartment before we clean it up. Even if you guys don't, if you think there's nothing here, at least let me back in there one more time to make sure that this is what we think it is. We don't know who made that call, but we do know that that didn't happen. They didn't get back in there. This apartment was clean.

[Captain]

To me, it's not so much about getting one last look. It's give me a day or so to go over the evidence that I collected to see if I need to go back in. It's just a safety net. That's all it is. And so again, like you said, I think maybe this doesn't hit the detective's ears or maybe the chief of police's ears. It doesn't hit. Hopefully it doesn't. Right?

[Nick]

Yeah. Measure twice, cut once is really how I look at this thing. I mean, it. This was not investigation that was completed, Be it out of your police file back at the police station or your work inside that apartment. It was not done at this time. There's no cleanup to be had at this time in our timeline. So initially, at first, on January 27, it sounds like the medical examiner was leaning toward or may have even classified the death as a homicide that would ultimately be changed to suicide. And what's strange here is very quickly, it's like by day two, there's a statement from police, the police spokesperson, who says, we've not yet determined if it's a homicide or a suicide, but we're leaning towards suicide. Now, the autopsy findings. We could spend three episodes on the autopsy. To me, I don't think that it's necessary, but here's what the findings were. There's multiple stab wounds to the chest, abdomen and the back of the neck. The stab wounds affected vital areas including the aortic arch, left lung, the cervical spine. This indicates severe trauma to essential organs and structures. Okay, so that's, that's why the person is deceased. The blade details are it's 12.5 centimeters, which is almost a 5 inch blade. This was embedded in the wound to the chest with a depth of 10 centimeters. So that's almost 4 inches deep in the chest. As said, there's 20 stab wounds or knife wounds to our victim here. What we cannot say, even if we review each one, what we cannot say is the order in which these wounds were created. But there are 20 of them. What we can say is we do know what the last one is because the knife is still, unfortunately, in the victim. There is notation in this report the presence of multiple bruises at different stages of resolution, suggesting a pattern of physical altercations or abuse occurring over time. That's in the. The initial. The I say initial autopsy because there had to be multiple autopsies conducted in this case. But in the very first one that is listed, in the very first one, the presence of multiple bruises at different stages of resolution, suggesting a pattern of physical altercations or abuse occurring over time. This could mean multiple things. It could mean that somebody was physically abusing our victim. It could mean our victim is clumsy.

[Captain]

Or she's physically abusing herself or she's.

[Nick]

Hurting herself self harm. But to me, that statement alone is telling me, as an investigator. Wait. We can't come to a conclusion of suicide yet. We. At the very least, it's undetermined, and therefore, it warrants further investigation. That's. I mean, that is as plain and simple as it gets. That is detective work 101. Police work 101. That's what they teach you in the first five minutes. There's further investigation required here.

[Captain]

In the initial report, do they talk anything about strangulation?

[Nick]

No, they do not. One thing that I did find to be a bit strange, though, very early in this investigation, this is on the same day. So the day after we know the apartment was cleaned, after the apartment is cleaned, the day after James Schwarzman, who was granted access to the apartment, showed up and removed the suit that he had told the property manager about, but also removed Ellen's purse, cell phone, and laptop.

[Captain]

Now, the reason that he claims that he took the laptop is that he also claims that he took his nephew's laptop and didn't know which laptop belonged to who. So he took both of them. But still, once you find out that.

[Nick]

Purse, he knew he had to believe the purse didn't belong to Sam.

[Captain]

Well, right. And same with the cell phone. And so my argument would be, I don't know what was on her laptop. I don't. I don't know if she had a certain kind of COVID If. Was the laptop a color? Did she have stickers on it? I mean, some people decorate their laptops so that. That's something I'd like to know, because if there's a clear difference between the two, I think it doesn't make any sense to have. To have taken both laptops.

[Nick]

Exactly. Okay, so let's pretend for a minute. Sam who. Now, if you're acting on his behalf, you're. He's your client at this point, whether he's paid you a penny or not. But he essentially is your client at this point. If your client requests that you go to the premises and remove these items to bring to him, and the police are not denying you access, that seems all well and good. And it could be simply him saying, look, my fiance just died in that apartment. I don't know if I'll ever go back, but I just died.

[Captain]

She. She killed herself.

[Nick]

Yeah. In a. In a very violent way, too.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

And so I'm. Maybe. Maybe this is a conversation that they had, and I. These are items that I need. Could you go and just collect anything that looks important? Because I don't know if I'm ever going back there. Yeah, that could be the conversation. But. But the. The problem with this becomes, from my understanding, the police have. This is where the police mucked this thing up. And the attorney mucks it up even more. But the police allowed the attorney to muck it up even more because your investigation hasn't even started yet. When you've not determined the manner of death that. From my understanding, this has not even been determined yet. So therefore, we cannot say that it should not be a homicide investigation. It should be always be treated as a homicide until you can prove that it's not in every situation.

[Captain]

And if it's a homicide and I'm a detective, what do I want? I want access to her computer. I want access to his computer. I want access to her phone. I want access to his phone.

[Nick]

Exactly. And then here's another complicated. This becomes a very gray area. Right. If James Schwarzman is now acting on behalf of his client's best interest, at this point in our timeline, if you don't have a determination, if you are not investigating it as a homicide, then guess what is what I believe that you could probably get away with. Because James Schwarzman is an officer of the court. Any officer of the court will know that you cannot illegally. You cannot tamper with evidence. And all of this stuff should be evidence at this point. He cannot do that as an officer of the court, nor should a civilian either. But where it becomes a gray area that maybe you can get away with, it is, no, the Police said, this is not a crime scene, so I can collect these things because nobody can come back on me later saying that I was tampering with evidence. Because if it's not a crime scene, this shit ain't evidence.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

There were a few things. So what happens here? There is a search warrant that is issued by the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, and I believe that it is executed on January 27th. So this is the day after they are searching for the following items and removing, searched and seized, the following items. Here's what's, here's what a pisser right here.

[Captain]

Captain, this whole case is a pisser.

[Nick]

Yeah, but if, if you're. You have to file for the search warrant, it has to be signed off on and granted permission. Right. Even though you're the police, you still have to get the search warrant. And that's where you see them doing their due diligence. But if I'm a judge and I'm signing off on it, I want to know, well, why do you need a search and seize items from this particular property? Well, they have to tell the, the judge the purpose is related to the investigation of a homicide by a cutting instrument involving Ellen Greenberg, our victim. If that's your description on the search warrant to the judge, that means you should. This is a crime scene. Nobody's allowed in here. You just said the word homicide in your paperwork filing with the judge. All right, sorry, I'm getting too worked up here. The items that were searched and seized, assorted knives, blood samples, a serrated knife with a black handle, assorted paint samples, a bloody hand towel found in the kitchen, assorted clothing, blood samples, a diamond ring, latent prints, and a rubber made container, like a big Tupperware container.

[Captain]

I do want to point out when you were talking about the injuries, we don't have any injuries to her hands that look like defensive wounds, do we?

[Nick]

Correct. And so this would be suggesting that she wasn't fighting anybody off, that she, she didn't need to. Now, before we get to the 29th of January, let's. Let's go through briefly these wounds and better describe them to people that don't know this case. So the majority of these wounds, or at least 10 of them, were to the back portion of her body, like the back of her neck. The top of her head. The back of her head.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

There's a lot of wounds there. So this is, for a lack of a better term, it's. It's a steak knife. To me, it looks more like a, like a large paring knife. That's serrated. And it's believed that this knife made all 20 of these wounds. Now, there's varying depths of the stab wounds and of the cuts. There's varying lengths of the, of the cut to the body. But to put it plain and simple, 10 of these stab wounds are not where you would anticipate finding on a. A person who committed suicide. Ten of them are to the back of her, the back of her neck, the back of her head. In fact, to be honest with you, Captain, when looking at the autopsy and go to crimetimelines.com they have photos there, autopsy photos. From looking at it, I would make the assumption that that large injury to the large wound to the back of her head, that to me almost looked like. Like she was pushed and hit her head real hard and it split open. That's what it looked like to me. But we're being told that that was in fact a stab wound. Yeah, but look, we can agree they didn't do a good job with the autopsies. Right? Let's.

[Captain]

The problem with all these medical examinations are when we have multiple doctors. Look, if there are even doctors, whatever their certification is, that we get varying reports. So it's not unreasonable to think that maybe she got this, like you said, being pushed into an item, or maybe there's some sort of blunt force trauma. But I bring up the no defensive wounds because that could also occur. There'd be no defensive wounds if you kill yourself, but there would also be no defensive wounds if somebody attacks you from behind.

[Nick]

But also multiple bruises at different stages of resolution, suggesting a pattern of physical altercations or abuse occurring over time.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

While that statement is true, a portion of that true statement is multiple bruises at differing different stages of resolution, meaning that some of those bruises could be fresh. So I had a real hard time when reviewing the different autopsies and their findings because they don't completely match one another. And two, this is a statement that gives me pause. If you're telling me that she does have bruising at different stages of resolution, but yet you can confirm there's no defensive wounds, that's. That seems like both of those things cannot be true. Like it seems possible to me that some of those bruises might have been defensive wounds. They just are more fresh bruises.

[Captain]

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[Nick]

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[Captain]

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[Captain]

We are back. Welcome back to the Madness Talk. Hands in the air. Cheers to you Colonel.

[Nick]

Cheers to you Captain. On January 29, 2011 this is just days after the mysterious death is the best way to put it of Ellen Greenberg. Police released a statement. A police spokesperson said that despite the homicide ruling, authorities were leaning towards suicide in Ellen's case and looking into, quote, mental issues, end quote, she might have had. Lt. Raymond Evers emphasized that the case is still wide open, but he said he wanted to assure residents of the area that there wasn't, quote, a maniac on the loose.

[Captain]

I don't know why. I just hate it because if you don't know, if you're not 100% sure of what happens or what happened, I.

[Nick]

Say anything at all.

[Captain]

Why say anything at all? And, and again, it's, it's. Is it stupidity or is it arrogance?

[Nick]

Yeah, I think that they're, they're being pressed to say something. And so, yeah, you, you do say something. You owe that to the public. That's who you work for. That's who you're in charge of keeping safe. But I don't know that you have to go into great detail or go this far. I would simply be stating we're still looking into what happened. Anytime you have an unsolved case that may be a homicide. Yeah. People should be on high alert. How people should be on. On alert just in their everyday lives anyway.

[Captain]

Yeah. I was posed the question the other day, are people becoming more crazy or are we just hearing about it more often?

[Nick]

We're definitely hearing about it more often. And there's more of us today than there were before.

[Captain]

And guess what, my friend, we're part of the problem.

[Nick]

Yeah. So we. Here's what we learned in April, the laptop forensics comes back on Ellen's computer. So this is regional computer forensics laboratory turned over their findings to the PPD April 1st of 2011, which revealed a search history. Much of it we've already discussed on ellen's computer between December 18 and January 10. That included search terms such as suicide methods, quick suicide and painless suicide. On April 15, 2011, the Medical Examiner's office investigation report was revised to reflect that when the fiance forced entry into the apartment. An apartment security man was reportedly present during this entry. Ultimately, this is the ruling has changed to suicide unbeknownst to her family. From the way that I understand this, captain, is that her death certificate was kind of quietly updated or quietly revised. Like they didn't go out of their way to notify a bunch of people that, hey, this is, this is now our finding. So it sounds to me like a lot of this determination may have a cause and effect here of. Well, we found somebody searching These terms on her computer within five weeks, six weeks of her. Her death.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

We also have this report that the fiance wasn't alone when he forced entry into the apartment. But we now know that that's not correct. Right. Wherever they got that information, even if it just came from Sam Goldberg. Because, remember, we went through his statement to the police which says that the security personnel escorted me. They. They were with me when I went back up to the sixth floor and busted down the door. Now, I keep saying that, but it didn't really he bust into the apartment. And the way that it looks to me is he. The door didn't get ripped off of the hinges. It was. The lock mechanism simply broke off of the door.

[Captain]

Again, this case just lends itself to something that might be evidence, just lends itself to more questioning. Like, we have these searches on her computer, but we don't know who made the searches. I don't think we have a location of where these searches took place. If they took place on her computer inside that apartment, Sam could have made these searches just as easy as she could have.

[Nick]

She also could have made the searches and didn't take her own life.

[Captain]

Correct. But what he can't fake in all this is the communication that she's having with friends and family.

[Nick]

Right.

[Captain]

About the troubles that she is facing and I think her mental issues that was going on.

[Nick]

Captain, if you'll bear with me, I'm going to try to deliver this next bit of information as succinctly as possible and kind of a concise manner, because what we're going to see in this case is we're going to see her family fight for her to get a proper determination of why their daughter is dead. But this fight will take years. It will take years. And we unfortunately get a lot of requests from family members who have lost someone. A lot of those requests include people that died from an overdose or a drowning, or fill in the blank, but it was not ruled a homicide. And the sad conversation that we have to have with those individuals is, we would like to present your case. We would like to take it on. We can only present so many of these cases where you don't agree with the findings of the medical examiner or the police, because there's so many open homicides and cold cases out there right now that our schedule's full. And one of the most difficult things to get is to get that ruling overturned. And look, it's very rare. I've only seen one situation that is investigated by the police department as a homicide where the medical examiner ruled it natural causes. I've only seen one case out of the thousands that I've looked at, you know, over these years with this obsession of true crime.

[Captain]

We have a sickness.

[Nick]

What we have here is the family. One of their initial things that they're going to try to fight this ruling is to say, look, let's bring in an expert, let's have our own expert take a look. And Cyril Wecht, who is a renowned forensic pathologist, Dr. Sealer Wecht took a look at the report, but this wouldn't be until January of 2012. His report says that everything he reviewed is strongly suspicious of homicide. In fact, he would later go on to say on record, but not in this report, that he couldn't figure out how they arrived at the conclusion of suicide at all. Then we have Dr. Henry Lee, Ph.D. who issued a report stating the number of wounds and the type of wounds and the bloodstain patterns are consistent with a homicide. So Henry Lee's only reviewing pictures of the scene and the documentation of the autopsy. But I think, I think any level headed person would say 20 stab wounds, while not impossible, seems very highly unlikely that somebody would do that level of damage to themselves before expiring or before not possessing the physical ability to continue to harm yourself. And then many people would say that the 10 wounds to the back of our victim here is highly suggestive that she didn't inflict those wounds on herself. Now we went through the, we went through the specs of the knife itself, right? So you have almost a 5 inch blade. You're going to have a handle. That handle is roughly about the same size as the blade. So you only need 5 inches between your fist, the bottom of your fist or the top of your fist to hit yourself in the back of the neck or the back of your head with that knife. So I want to point out something while, while I think that a lot of people have spent a lot of time reviewing each and every one of these wounds, I don't find it to be necessary because I can physically make that motion to myself with either hand and successfully hit the mark. What I think the best statement to label these wounds is not probable that it's suicide, but it doesn't have to be murder because physically an able bodied person of her age can, can make that motion, can bend that way. It's possible, it's, it's unnatural, it's awkward. But I, not only can I do it with one, with my right hand, my or my left hand, I could do it with Both so. Because there are a lot of people that say that the wounds, after you review them, are suggesting that they're coming from different angles and from different sides, that that one would have to be switching hands throughout. And my pushback on that, Captain, would be no, I could put the knife in both of my hands together, holding both of my hands, and physically reach all of these marks.

[Captain]

I see what you're saying. I think the difficulty becomes when she doesn't have. I believe there's, like, no blood evidence on her left hand. So if she could reach these by using multiple hands there. I don't think there's any evidence that she used multiple hands.

[Nick]

And you were right, Captain. It's in one of these later autopsies that the examiner is suggesting that there may be indication of strangulation. I was a little fuzzy on that detail because. Sounded like it was some kind of bruising of the muscle, the neck muscle, and it may have only been as big as a thumbnail or a fingernail. So I'm a little unclear on. On the. I don't. To me, it sounded more like speculation rather than a proper claim.

[Captain]

Yeah, I agree there, too. But I think, again, this. This case just lends itself to whatever you learn. You just have more questions, like, what medication was she on at the time? What dosage? What were the dosage? What medications were she. Was she. What medication was she prescribed by her doctors? Was she taking that medication? Was she abusing that medication? Are any of the side effects. Do they lend themselves to make this more probable? And I know a lot of people, there's many points of this. You know, they talk about the. The orange, freshly cut orange.

[Nick]

It didn't look freshly cut to me. I. The picture I reviewed, that didn't look like freshly cut to me. But.

[Captain]

But. But even so, it's not out of the realm of possibilities that she's cutting this orange and she's been thinking about hurting herself or taking herself out of this world and decides right then and there, now's the time. That's not out of the realm of possibilities. There's. I had a detective tell me one time that, did you know a lot of men that commit suicide will get their hair cut that day? Now, is it. Did they get their hair cut so they look better when people find them, or is it just evidence of that? A lot of these things take place on a normal day.

[Nick]

Well, that. And to. Not. We. I don't want to analyze this too much because it should be understood that there are people that plan to take their own lives and they go to great lengths to, to carry out their plans and make arrangements and such, even if it's something as simple as looking good with a fresh haircut. And then there are other people who struggle and impulsively will take their own life.

[Captain]

And a mixture of both.

[Nick]

Exactly. So I don't know that. So to me there, yes, I, I would, I would ex expect to find some signs like a pre existing condition, if you will, which we do see some of that. We, whether she committed, you know, whether she's searching these terms on her computer or not, we do know that her family is expressing concern about her to the point where her family tells her go see somebody, go see a professional. And we know that she's communicating with her mom, that she's taking her meds. And so that is, that is fact right there. We know that that happened. Now the thing that gets real tricky here is both can be true in both scenarios. Maybe she filled up because some people go, well, she filled up her gas tank. Well, she sliced up an orange. Well, I'm sorry, I wish I could sit here and tell you that there's never been a person before in the history of, of man that filled up their gas tank and then went home and killed themselves. I wish I could tell you that that's never ever happened before. Therefore it will never, it's not a possibility. No, that stuff happens, unfortunately. Some people cut up some fruit. That happens. The problem though is this investigation wasn't handled properly and therefore every bit of evidence, if you will, gets really difficult for us to examine because it's all tainted by this point. Now, if the investigation was conducted properly, a lot of these missteps made by other people would, wouldn't have happened. Okay, so you watched the O.J. simpson Netflix thing, right? We, we both said we were going to watch it. And yeah, later you said you would give us a ruling on Two thumbs up, one thumb up.

[Captain]

I give it three thumbs up. I thought it was awesome. It was a great documentary, one of the best.

[Nick]

But one thing that was so aggravating about it, I thought it was great as well. So you, you have the full backing of True Crime Garage on that, on the new OJ Netflix. One thing that the documentary highlighted, and I don't know that this stood out for everyone, but it certainly stood out for me, was they're going through and they're like, look at all this additional blood evidence that was never presented at trial. And you're like, well, I thought he did it before now with all this additional blood evidence that they found all over the place. He absolutely did it.

[Captain]

Yeah, well, you hear that? There's a mountain of evidence. And then, like you said, there's a whole nother mountain of evidence that's not even presented, not collected properly, so they can present it at trial. So then you go, well, there's a Mount Kilimanjaro of evidence in the O.J. case.

[Nick]

I sat there and got very angered watching it going, well, why didn't they? What a bunch of idiots. They should have presented this additional evidence at trial. And then you find out, well, there was a problem somewhere along the way where it was either evidence that wasn't collected or they question how it was collected or it wasn't photographed. And then you have four detectives that were all at the scene, and they're all saying some. They're saying different things. One detective saying, it's in my notes, and the other detective saying, well, that doesn't do us any good. You didn't communicate those notes to us, so your notes never made it to our notes.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

And then you say, well, this wasn't photographed. I don't know why it wasn't photographed. I saw it and put it in my notes. Well, you didn't tell anybody to photograph it. And that's what I think happened here. I don't understand how you get at least four detectives. I think there might have been five or six at all on the scene at one time inside the apartment. How the hell one of them didn't go, wait, we got to work this as a homicide until it's not. Befuddles me. The other thing that. That completely makes me rip my hair out is if I'm a detective at the scene, I'm looking at the other detective, and I'm saying, hey, do you want to do this, or do you want me to do it? One of us needs to go to an unoccupied unit and see if we can close the door and lock it from the outside. One of us needs to go and see if we can make that lock lock itself or use some kind of tool or screwdriver or whatever to set it up so that I can lock it from the outside. Because you had mentioned him being on the phone, and that might be trying to establish an alibi. His alibi is the door being locked in the belief that it can only be locked from the inside. Because if that is true, if we can say that 1,000 times and feel 100% confident about it, each of those times we say it if that door can only physically be locked from the inside and there's no other way in and out of this apartment, then she had to kill her, kill herself. And I think that that is because the investigation wasn't conducted properly. Then you see a domino effect where the autopsies weren't conducted appropriately. You see where they add to the report stating that a security personnel was present with Sam Goldberg when he forced his way into the apartment. They add that to their ruling that it's a suicide. So they must have believed the same. Well, you can only lock it from the inside. Therefore, that is proof that. That he didn't kill her, that she killed herself, because he had somebody present with him when he busted open the door. What do I mean by that? Couple things. If he killed her and then went to the gym and that door was locked, then he had to figure out a way to lock it behind him.

[Captain]

Yeah, it's actually not that hard to do if you have a string or even a shoelace.

[Nick]

Well, what I mean by that is he is. I like to. I like to look at people's actions. What are they doing, and who is the one that's propelling these actions into willing them into existence. Right. One thing he is doing, whether he's innocent or guilty, is he's trying to get the security person to come up with him to bust down the door. We. Right. We know that he's trying to do that. Now, he could be doing that because he's concerned about his fiance and he's worried what's going on inside the apartment. Or he could want the security person to go up there with him, because it will look a lot better if I'm not the one that discovers the body. It will look a lot better if there's somebody here to confirm that that door was locked, because many people believe it can only be locked from the inside. That lock is his alibi. He couldn't get that security person to go up there with him.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

And so he busts the door by himself. What I'm. What I'm saying is, yes, he could stage the scene, but he would have to be able to successfully stage the scene with that door locked, because that's his alibi. If I'm a detective, that's the first thing I want to figure out. Detective B, C, D. Who. Who wants to do this? One of you guys want to do it, or you want me to go. Go to unoccupied unit and spend 15, 20 minutes and see if I can figure it. Figure out locking it without being inside. I've not actually attempted. There was part of me, Captain wanted. I wanted to go to a hotel and find a similar lock. But then I was like, well, if I successfully do it, if they have to damage the door to get in, I'm gonna have to pay for that door. I think I. I'm looking at that picture. I think that I could figure out a way to jimmy rig it and get it to close. You get it to lock?

[Captain]

Well, I've done it before, like I said, with a shoelace. Because once you get the door. Once you get the door, were you.

[Nick]

Able to remove the shoelace after locking it?

[Captain]

Yeah, because basically the shoelace will go around the latch on both sides. Once it's on the handle, then you can just pull the shoelace through by either side.

[Nick]

Well, no, but wouldn't you have to do that after re entering the door that you just locked? Meaning could you remove the shoelace while the door was still locked? And I'm asking that question because.

[Captain]

Well, no, because the thing is, when you go to open up the door, right? You go up to open up the door and the latch is on. It allows you to open the door just a little bit, and that would be enough to pull the shoelace through. Head. Head on down to the gym.

[Nick]

Okay, so your answer is, yes, you can remove the shoelace while the door is still locked, because it's still technically locked. And I'm asking that because of this situation, if he were able to figure out how to do that, how to lock that door from the outside, and you just suggested a way, he would also have to be able to successfully remove whatever it is that he used to implement that so that when the security person is with him, it's not obvious to anybody that it was locked from the outside. Again, his alibi is the lock, right? So if he did kill her, how did he stage it and how did he successfully stage it so well is a question that you have to answer, because regardless of. Of what took place, I believe that door was locked. I believe it was locked in the manner that he said it was. And I believe that simply because. Guilty or innocent? If he's innocent, she locked the door. That's easy. If he's guilty, he at least tried hard enough to get somebody to be present. He wanted it to be known, he wanted it to be witnessed, that he had a bust in the door and that it was in fact locked.

[Captain]

You can't get the security guard to come up with you when you have to knock down the door. So you can't get him to be present when you find her dead in the apartment. So what do you do? You call somebody. So somebody's then present with you on the phone. Seems a little fishy.

[Nick]

A couple of items that we should mention here are some of these wounds. So the Ellen's spinal Dora was punctured, meaning that she should have been incapacitated before she could have inflicted additional stab wounds. All right, now I want to touch on this a little bit because there's. There were forensics that came out that said her, basically her spinal cord was damaged, and if that were true from these stab wounds, that she wouldn't be able to continue to inflict additional stab wounds after this. She would have been incapacitated. Again, we don't know the order of the stab wounds. Regardless of where you read them, they're listed differently. Nobody knows what order except for the last one. We know the last one was the one in her chest. However, if this statement is true, then she wouldn't have even been able to inflict that very last one, leaving the knife in her chest. I say if this statement is true because at this point in the investigation and in my investigation, the best we could do from 30,000ft, I'm reading these autopsies and I'm going, I don't know how much I weight. I can put in any one particular finding because it's not found in the other autopsy. So there are statements that say, yes, there was damage, but she may not have been incapacitated. The other problem I have too is there's. There was another medical finding that one of the wounds was inflicted postmortem. And this is easy, usually pretty easy. Easy to determine because there's. The blood flow has stopped at this point. So if somebody. If somebody put the knife in her one more time or more than once after she did, she's dead. Well, she didn't kill herself. Then that's a homicide. The. The problem then I thought when finding that at first, Captain, I would be like, well, this is easy. If one of the wounds, at least one, was committed post mortem, then this is an open and shut case. This is a homicide. And the only one with the means and opportunity is probably the boyfriend, the fiance. So this. At first glance, I'm reading the information I'm going through, and I'm like, I don't understand the public's fascination with this case because it's right here in front of us. There's no question. But the more I got to thinking about it is They've paved their own road here. They've made their own bed. And from what my eyes can see about that road and about the bed that they've made, we cannot trust the autopsy findings in this case. So I cannot sit here and feel incredibly confident about that statement that one of the wounds was postmortem. And here's why I would want to know. Would I expect, as a medical examiner, wound A and wound B to be noticeably different? Right? One postmortem wound, one. That is not what I expect those to look noticeably different to me. Because what we do know is the knife was found in her chest. He didn't remove it when he was on the phone with 911. What would leaving the knife in. What. What does that do to the body? Right? Does that. Does that stop blood flow? Would you expect to see blood flow? And then there was none. So it was postmortem. That. That's the. I think there's additional information that needs to be had here. And what wound was it? Which of the 20 was the postmortem wound? Was it the knife sticking out of her chest, or was it a different one? That all plays a big role here, and I think that that's something that we're going to figure out. One thing that we have figured out is Philip Hanton, the security personnel, he says, I didn't go up there with him. And we now know, based off of surveillance footage, that we see footage, a still image of Sam Goldberg in the elevator going up to the sixth floor by himself. There's nobody there with him. He gets off of the elevator and eventually breaks into the apartment. So his statement to police that somebody was with him when he broke into the apartment is not correct. That didn't happen, not the way he described.

[Captain]

In my opinion, the more evidence you have in this case, the more questions you have. If you want to stick around and listen to the Colonel and the Captain rant their faces off in part three, then join us back here in the garage.

[Nick]

Until then, be good, be kind, and don't.