Mysterious Death of Ellen Greenberg /// Part 3

Summary

Podcast Summary: True Crime Garage – "Mysterious Death of Ellen Greenberg /// Part 3"

Introduction

In the third installment of the "Mysterious Death of Ellen Greenberg" series, hosts Nic and the Captain delve deeper into the perplexing circumstances surrounding Ellen Greenberg's death. Released on February 26, 2025, this episode uncovers new forensic insights, critiques the investigation's shortcomings, and explores the implications of recent legal developments. Listeners are taken on a detailed journey through the case's complexities, highlighting key discussions, expert opinions, and unresolved questions.

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Background of Ellen Greenberg’s Case

Ellen Greenberg's death was initially ruled a suicide, a decision that her family vehemently contested for over 14 years. The Greenbergs believed that the evidence suggested foul play, leading to protracted legal battles to have the ruling re-evaluated. This episode sheds light on the family's relentless pursuit of justice and the recent breakthroughs that challenge the original conclusion.

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Expert Analysis: Dr. Greenberg’s Forensic Insights

A pivotal moment in the episode features Dr. Greenberg, a respected forensic pathologist, who meticulously analyzes the scene of Ellen's death.

• Strangulation Evidence:

  • Brian [00:46]: "Do you believe that there was strangulation?"
  • Dr. Greenberg [00:50]: "Yes. To reasonable degree. Medical certainty. She was strangled?"

  Dr. Greenberg asserts with confidence that strangulation was the cause of Ellen’s death, contradicting the suicide narrative.

• Signs of Abuse:

  • Dr. Greenberg [01:00]: "I'm concerned about bruises to the wrists and extensive bruises to the lower legs. She’s not a kickboxer or in karate. How did she get those bruises?"

  The presence of unexplained bruises raises red flags about potential prior abuse or foul play.

• Staged Scene Indicators:

  • Dr. Greenberg [02:24]: "This scene is staged. Her arms are down by her side with a towel holding her left hand, yet there's no blood on the towel. She’s not stabbing herself and then wiping it. Somebody else put the towel there."

  The forensic expert points out several inconsistencies suggesting that the crime scene was manipulated to mimic a suicide.

• Questioning the Suicide Narrative:

  • Dr. Greenberg [05:11]: "If you're going to call this a suicide, not a homicide, that somehow she gets it. Just does not make sense."

  Dr. Greenberg dismantles the suicide theory by highlighting the improbability of Ellen inflicting multiple stab wounds on herself without evidence of struggle or struggle-related injuries.

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Investigation Flaws and Procedural Missteps

Nic and the Captain critique the investigation’s handling, emphasizing lapses that may have compromised the case:

• Lack of Luminol Testing:

  • Brian [03:12]: "He’s frustrated that there was no luminol testing done. No testing by police in the bathroom where her belongings were packed."

  The absence of thorough forensic testing, especially in critical areas like the bathroom, suggests negligence.

• Evidence Collection Issues:

  • Captain [10:36]: "Why didn’t law enforcement take her cell phone? There was movement on that phone that could have been tracked."

  The failure to secure and analyze Ellen's digital devices hampers the ability to reconstruct events accurately.

• Improper Scene Management:

  • Captain [16:59]: "Was the building properly searched? Were individuals properly interviewed? The investigation within the four walls raises concerns."

  The hosts question whether the crime scene was adequately preserved and thoroughly examined, pointing to potential oversight or deliberate mismanagement.

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Suspect Behavior and Alibi Concerns

Central to the episode is the scrutiny of Sam Goldberg, Ellen’s boyfriend, who emerged as the primary suspect:

• Inconsistent Statements:

  • Captain [10:07]: "When you have a suspect, their statements need to align. Sam’s account has discrepancies that raise suspicions."

  Sam’s conflicting testimonies about his whereabouts and actions during the time of Ellen’s death are critically examined.

• Quick Evidence Collection:

  • Captain [28:10]: "Why did Sam and his attorney collect Ellen’s belongings so swiftly? This raises questions about potential evidence tampering."

  The rapid removal of Ellen's personal items by Sam and his legal representative is seen as suspicious, potentially indicating an attempt to manipulate evidence.

• Alibi Verification:

  • Captain [21:49]: "If Sam was innocent, how did he account for the multiple stab wounds? If guilty, why the lack of blood evidence on him?"

  The hosts delve into the improbability of Sam’s alibi holding up under detailed forensic scrutiny, especially regarding the absence of blood on his person.

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Legal Developments and Settlement

After years of litigation, a significant breakthrough occurs:

• Settlement with the City:

  • Captain [04:36]: "On February 2nd, 2025, the Greenbergs settled with the city, securing a re-evaluation of Ellen’s manner of death."

  The settlement marks a pivotal victory for the Greenberg family, as it formally acknowledges the potential flaws in the initial investigation.

• Medical Examiner’s Reassessment:

  • Captain [04:10]: "The medical examiner has now stated it was not a suicide. This consensus aligns with the Greenbergs' assertions."

  The reclassification of Ellen’s death from suicide to an undetermined or potential homicide opens the door for further investigation and possible legal action against suspects.

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Critical Questions and Ongoing Uncertainties

The episode concludes by posing essential questions that remain unanswered:

1. Possibility of Suicide:

   • Ashley [42:04]: "Is it even possible to commit suicide in this manner? The method is atypical and raises doubts."

2. Boyfriend's Actions:

   • Captain [20:02]: "What actions of Sam Goldberg were the most concerning? His quick response and handling of Ellen’s belongings warrant further investigation."

3. Prospects for Answers:

   • Ashley [42:04]: "With time passing, is there any chance of getting conclusive answers? Closure for the family seems elusive."

The hosts emphasize the importance of continued scrutiny and advocate for renewed investigative efforts to uncover the truth behind Ellen’s tragic death.

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Conclusion

"Mysterious Death of Ellen Greenberg /// Part 3" offers a comprehensive examination of a case fraught with inconsistencies and investigative oversights. Through expert analysis, critical discussion, and an unwavering quest for truth, Nic and the Captain bring to light the complexities surrounding Ellen Greenberg's death. While the recent legal settlement provides a glimmer of hope for re-opening the investigation, numerous questions remain, underscoring the need for persistent inquiry and justice for the Greenberg family.

Listeners are encouraged to engage with the podcast's community by sharing their thoughts and questions, fostering a collaborative pursuit of answers in this enduring true crime mystery.

Transcript

[Ashley]

Sa.

[Brian]

Do you believe that there was strangulation?

[Dr. Greenberg]

Yes.

[Brian]

To medical certainty?

[Dr. Greenberg]

To reasonable degree. Medical certainty. She was strangled?

[Ashley]

Yeah.

[Dr. Greenberg]

I would. I would testify in the court of law. I've said it in my reports.

[Brian]

Do you think there's any signs of abuse before the death?

[Dr. Greenberg]

I'm concerned about that, yes. And the reason I'm concerned about that is the bruises to the wrists, obviously the strangulation, but there's extensive bruises to the lower legs. What is that about? Where does she get that? She's not a kickboxer. She's not in karate that I know of. She looks like a typical nice girl, you know, very feminine looking. How'd she get those bruises down there?

[Philip]

And Brian Entin joins me live now with this remarkable story that he has doggedly pursued. Were you surprised by these findings? I mean, this pathologist really, really thinks that this was staged.

[Brian]

You know, I was surprised by what he has uncovered. He's been working the case for 10 years, Ashley. He says it is staged, that this whole scene was staged and that he has the evidence to prove it. That perhaps Ellen Greenberg didn't even die from the stab wounds. This is a highly respected forensic pathologist. He does autopsies. Four different counties here in Pennsylvania was hired by the Greenbergs. He's done 14,000 autopsies overall. He says he has never seen anything like what happened to Ellen Greenberg and all of this craziness that has gone on for the last 14 years. Listen to what he says about it being staged.

[Dr. Greenberg]

When I look at the scene, first thing I notice when I look at it and I think synthetically is, oh, my goodness, this scene is staged. How do I know it's staged? Because I see her back up against the cabinets in the kitchen. Her arms are down by her side. The left arm hand is holding onto a towel. There's no blood on the towel. There's no blood on her hand. There's blood to the back of her left hand. To the right are her glasses. Now, obviously she's not sitting there stabbing herself and then wiping herself with the towel. Why does she have a towel there and there's no blood on the base of the left hand? She didn't use her left hand obviously to stab herself. And there's a towel in there. Why would she have a towel in her hand if she's going to be stabbing herself and there's no blood in it? Well, she didn't. Somebody else put it there. It's staged.

[Brian]

He says the clean towel, Ashley, doesn't make any sense. He believes it came from the bathroom. He's frustrated that there was no luminol testing done. There was no testing by police done in the bathroom. He showed me photos in the bathroom. All of her stuff was packed up. Her makeup bag was packed up. Her cell phone was sitting right on top of her bag. He believes perhaps she was packing up to leave when all of this went down. He showed me the sink, by the way, the kitchen sink and the sink. There was a pot scrubber and there was a sponge and there were two knives. None of that was tested, he said. So he's frustrated by the whole thing.

[Philip]

I'm frustrated, but I'm angry. I'm just angry at the sheer stupidity and the laziness or whatever else was afoot here. The doctor was really great in terms of demonstrating how absolutely asinine a finding of suicide was. What did he say?

[Brian]

Yeah, I mean, you call it asinine. And now, you know, the big civil case that was supposed to happen in the courthouse behind me this week, the city of Philadelphia settled. They settled. And let's not forget, the medical examiner who did the autopsy has now said it was not a suicide. So everybody seems to be agreeing in that way at this point. But this is the way he explained it in terms of all those stab wounds. 20 stab wounds to the front of the back of the body.

[Dr. Greenberg]

If you're going to call this a suicide, not a homicide, that somehow she gets. She stands up or leans over, stabbing myself. Oh, I get to get blood drops down there. Blood drops, get down there. Oh, not my hand. Sorry. I use the left hand. Shouldn't have done that. Just the right blood drops. And then she falls to the ground. She's on it and everything else. Boot turns to the side. Oh, excuse me. Let me stab myself again and drop the blood on the side. Does that make any sense? No, no, of course not.

[Captain]

Right.

[Dr. Greenberg]

But that's what you're suggesting. I mean, you're not suggesting it. So there's blow drops there. They're coming straight down, too. And there's hair here. I mean, why the heck's there hair in between here? Where's that from? Now, what happens is, when you get hair like this, sometimes the person is defending themselves, and literally the victim actually pulls their hair out. But the other times, the assailant is pulling the hair out. Either way, you got hair here in the middle. Does that make any sense to anybody? Of course not.

[Ashley]

Foreign.

[Captain]

Good news for the Greenbergs. After years of battling, after years of pushback, after years of not really getting much help, from the people that should be helping them. They finally got their daughter's death, the ruling on that, the manner of her death to be reevaluated. So February 2nd of 2025, the Greenberg's reached a settlement with the city. The short of it is they were suing the city, suing the medical examiner's office, that they had come to the wrong answer, that they got their daughter's death wrong. They had to be taken to court to prove that there is cause to reopen this evaluation and reopen an investigation. I don't know what the. It sounds like even though a judge ruled on on their behalf and even though they were pushing that this was a settlement with the city which has agreed to pay an undisclosed amount of money. But the big win here, this is all they were really after is additionally the medical examiner's office will re evaluate Ellen's manner of death. Josh and Sandy consider Osborne's verification. So Osborne was one of the medical examiners, Marlon Osborne. And what they're saying is based off of Osborne's verification quote, to us it means that we've accomplished our role that Ellen did not commit suicide. Here you have the original pathologist. Finally, after 14 years after Ellen's death and five years after of litigation acknowledging that her manner of death should not be suicide, but should be deemed something else. That is from the Greenberg's family attorney. Fourteen years after her death, five years of litigation to get to where we are absolutely crazy. Now let's see where this goes because again, I keep coming back. The most frustrating part to me is it looks like somebody made an error along the way and then nobody bothered to correct it. And then one error led to another and to another. Right. You. You see this with the start of it. I don't think, and I know I'm harping on the detectives here, but that's. That's really the tip of the iceberg. This is where it started, right? And had they just busted their butts and got it right in the beginning? And look, does yours truly get it right every time I flip on the microphone? Absolutely. No. I agree. They're human beings. I can sympathize with everybody out there listening. I can sympathize with you being a human being. Sometimes it sucks. And we're imperfect. They had a job to do. There was more heads there than just one. There were more shoulders there than just two. That should have lightened the load a little bit. And I think the errors really started becoming blatantly obvious. When the police department tells the property Manager of the apartment complex. It's okay to let people into the apartment. It's not considered a crime scene. I have in front of me, Captain, if you will humor me, I put together a little exercise that I would like to do with you here today, where it's simply. I wrote down some of the pros and cons. So let's define that. First, a pro on my list is things to me that point towards suicide being accurate. The cons would be that, no, this is not accurate with a suicide. I also have a list of items that I. I left for. Up in the middle is what I titled it because I think that they're open to interpretation.

[Ashley]

Yeah. If you want me to humor you, I mean, I could tell you a couple knock, knock jokes. Maybe a. A man walks into a bar, or I could tickle you. Your choice.

[Captain]

Well, how about we. We work on my list first and then we'll.

[Ashley]

We'll start there.

[Captain]

So first off, let's start. Let's examine the con side because that is, There's a lot of. That is just obvious. Right. To every person out there. They know already a lot of the reasons why you would look at this and go, it's not a suicide. So the first being the number of wounds. 20. We can agree on that. That typically doesn't point to suicide. The location of the wounds would not point towards suicide.

[Ashley]

Let me just add, the amount of wounds and where the wounds are is not disputed in any of the medical examinations.

[Captain]

Correct. The severity of the wounds might be disputed.

[Ashley]

Right.

[Captain]

The. What it. The effect that it had on Ellen's body may be disputed. Right. We talked about the postmortem. We also talked about if the spinal cord was damaged, would it incapacitate her? To me, those seem like less certainties that I think that we should still. I still put question marks next to both of those items, but when we're viewing the portion of my list that suggests that this, that says, yes, this, this points towards suicide, I want to point out something that is not discussed very much in this case, which I think is an oversight on everybody's part. This is not an argument of was it suicide or not. It's not that simple. It's. Your list has to keep in mind that if it's not suicide, it is a homicide.

[Ashley]

Right.

[Captain]

So you, you must have things that don't. You can't just simply say it is a homicide. Because. Because I don't think I see things that are indicative of a suicide. You also have to see evidence of an actual homicide. As well. So the things that really concerned me, the new meds. We know that she's on new medication. We know that by her communication with her family, we know that she was prescribed some what I described as narcotics. I think that, I think that they are technically labeled as such. I know for Klonopin at one time you had to have like a stamped, sealed. It wasn't, it wasn't just a note from your doctor or where they call it in. They, they had to give me some like special certificate here in the state of Ohio to get that. We know she's on new medication. And I want to point this out. This is the scary thing about medication. Anybody out there that thinks you can just take a pill and your problem will go away, whether it be a physical ailment, emotional, mental, what have you, that's not true. I wish that that were true. It's not true. And to carry that a step further, where my area concern is with some of these medications, all of our bodies are different, all of our chemistry is slightly different. We do not know how person A and person B are not going to Re1000% the same to every medication out there. They just aren't. So I do always have concern in any of these cases when a person is taking new medication, medication that is new to them. And look, this is described as a combination of medication. Another item for me, Captain, that might point towards suicide is we do know that regardless of who searched for what on Ellen's computer, we do know that her family and friends were concerned about her well being at this time leading up to her death. This one frightens me. This one frightens me to even think about it because I think of people closest to me and how concerned I would be for them if I had witnessed this. When she is out with her friend and they are looking for dresses, that's supposed to be a happy time. Some of my favorite times have been spent with my friends. When she breaks down and cries in that moment, that is terrifying to me because I've unfortunately in my life, suicide is not something that is completely foreign to me and not completely foreign to my family. And one sign of obvious concern that I have with individuals is if I experience somebody uncontrollably crying in a, in a, in a situation that doesn't warrant a breakdown like that. Like when a person is so that their emotions and feelings and thoughts are so out of their control that they do this it whenever I experience that or if I were to experience that going forward with anybody that I knew I would be raising the flag like you wouldn't believe, because that, to me is, I think, is something that I can't explain. It. It gives me great concern. It gives me great concern. But on this point of just proving or just saying that it's not a suicide because of this item or that item or this detail or that detail, you actually have to prove to me that it's a homicide as well. So one big question I have here, Captain, is where's all the blood? Where. On our number one suspect? If this were a homicide, Sam Goldberg, where is the blood? Right. When. When police showed up at the scene, did they. Did they check the washer and dryer to see if anything had been recently washed?

[Ashley]

Right.

[Captain]

Did they check the trash can to see if anything had been thrown away? Clothing? I'm sure. I. I hope that they did. I don't think that they bungled this so badly that. That they didn't take those steps.

[Ashley]

Yeah, but did they do tests where they test the drains? He could have easily took a shower.

[Captain]

Did he discard of anything at any place other in the building? Right. Did he pull like an OJ where he took a little bag with him and conveniently put it in a trash can that wasn't on his property? Did he. Because if she were attacked and killed, I would expect to find blood on this individual, on the person that killed her, either on their person or on their clothing. If. If he is responsible, was he able to. To discard of those items to where it wasn't obvious for. For the police to look for him? I have concern because I have concern of their investigation within the four walls of that apartment. I should have concern of their investigation outside of the four walls of that apartment. Was the building properly searched? Were people properly interviewed? And why did it take so long for one department to communicate to another department that, no, the security man didn't go up stairs with Sam because they seem to put a lot of weight in the thought that he went up there.

[Ashley]

Well, this investigation puts a lot of weight into Sam's statements. To them, at first they're looking at this as a possible homicide, but based on what the boyfriend, Sam, which would be our number one suspect or person of interest, they then say, well, based on what he told us, we're leaning more towards suicide. But then once you find out that one of his statements is not true, then the question becomes, was it just a mistake? Did he just tell you the wrong information? Because it's a mistake, because this is a tragic and traumatic situation that he was in or was he telling you a fib? And if he was telling you a fib, what else has he told you? Or what other statements have he told you that are also lies?

[Captain]

I don't understand why her purse, cell phone, and laptop needed to be collected by an attorney that is essentially representing Sam a day after this death. There are reasons to explain that they're not good enough. I don't care. There's not good enough for me. And a large part of that is, had this been deemed a crime scene, it should have been left as a crime scene. Minimum 48 hours. Right? @ least get one more look inside of there, because you might have missed something. And look, they clearly did miss a lot of things here. Regardless if this is a suicide or a homicide. And then as far as blood evidence goes, this is a. A sticking point for me. Okay.

[Ashley]

Okay.

[Captain]

I worry that the investigation wasn't thorough because they didn't have a full understanding of the victim and the wounds at the time before she was removed. Remember? Let's go Back to the 911 call. Let's pretend for a moment that we can say with complete confidence that Sam experienced this horrible, horrific experience of losing somebody that he loves dearly and found her in their apartment. In that scenario, he clearly does not know what wounds she has on her person other than what's obvious to him as he's observing her while on the phone with 911. What does he say to the dispatch to 911 operator? He says, I think maybe she hit her head. So again, if he's innocent and he's describing what his eyes are telling him to the person on the phone, he doesn't know what injuries she truly has. And then he's encouraged to perform cpr. So she says, the operator tells Sam, take off, remove the shirt so you can perform cpr. He starts to do so, and then he says, oh, my God, there's a knife. Or he says something to the effect of, there's. There's a knife in her chest, you.

[Ashley]

Think he would have saw that knife before then?

[Captain]

That's what I'm getting at. If he were perfectly innocent and he is describing the body as he's viewing it, or let's pretend that he's guilty, and he decides in the moment, you know what? It's probably a good idea to describe what I'm seeing as I'm seeing it, because they might be able to prove otherwise later. If the knife wasn't obvious to him, if he couldn't see the knife, if he Thought that she had suffered some kind of head wound. What I'm getting at here is you've seen the diagrams have been put together about her injuries and where they were inflicted on her body. If detectives get to the scene and they only believe that she has these wounds to the front of her, if that's all they can view in the moment, part of that's on them for not doing a full examination. But if they can't see that big head wound, if they can't see all those little stab wounds to the back of the neck. What I'm getting at here, captain, is if those detectives go into that crime scene and leave the scene with the belief that, oh, she was stabbed like three times or four times, don't you think that lends itself more to them thinking, well, we don't need to be looking for a whole lot of blood here. This certainly looks like a suicide. But had all of those investigators been told prior to entering the room, this poor girl in here, she's got 21. She's got 20 stab wounds to her body, Right? Just that number alone. I would think that even if you were bad at your job, you would be conducting that investigation very differently right out the gate. And I just wonder how many of these 20 stab wounds are. Weren't obvious to any, not just a layperson, but to police personnel.

[Ashley]

Well, within 48 hours of the investigation, you would think that they would have the 911 call, the recording of it, and you would know, based on the medical examination and your personal experience, could you see a head wound? I mean, she had very dark hair. I would almost argue it would be difficult to see a head wound. And then again, the lack of blood, it always goes back to, well, if, if her heart wasn't beating when she was being stabbed, then there would be a lack of blood evidence.

[Captain]

Well, true, but the statement, and again, I know I've already said we can't put a lot of weight into the findings, but the claim is that if any of the wounds were committed, or, yes, committed post mortem, it was one. They only cite one. Some of the statements that they give makes it sound like the door is open still for possibility of more than one postmortem wound. But I could only find definitive statements of one. So if that, if we are to believe that, then we, we know that the other 19 were not. There was blood flow during the other 19 or for the majority of that 19. So I, again, we do see a good amount of blood at the scene. I, I don't know I really thought that the, the, that big head wound to the back of the head that to me looked like something different from pictures. Again, I'm only seeing pictures, right? But I just, I don't see a way that somebody kills her and then is able to be interacting with individuals very quick, you know, relatively quickly afterward, and seen on surveillance footage. And we don't have any blood. Now, that's not to say that it went overlooked. That's not to say that he wasn't slippery enough, that he figured out how to lock the door behind him and figured out how to get rid of a few items, because he, if, if it went down, if he, if he killed her and then went to the gym, who's to say he didn't kill her 30 minutes before he went to the gym? Or, or within that hour? There's like an hour, more than an hour where his cell phone isn't active. And it's believed that they were both in the apartment at the same time. So how much time did he have to manipulate the scene, manipulate the body, conceal and destroy evidence? And I would really want to know a lot more about the relationship between him and his cousin. Why, you know, even if it's his best friend, it seems like a strange call to be making in the moment. And, oh, by the way, the cousin's father, his uncle Sam's uncle is an attorney, and from what I've heard, a pretty good one. And then they're over there collecting things from the crime scene very quickly. I mean, it makes sense that he, he should have a suit. I mean, his fiance has been just passed and there's going to be some kind of service. So a suit is not an unreasonable request. But then you wonder what, what would have happened differently had police said, well, yes, we can get a, he can get a suit, but we will accompany him into the scene, into the apartment, or he can, he can give us instruction, and we will go and, and retrieve the suit for him. I'm not going to go as far to say that this officer of the court went as far to openly get rid of evidence or conceal evidence. I, I'm not willing to, to go that far. I, I don't know what kind of attorney he is. I'm not saying that there's no attorney out there that wouldn't break the rules. I believe most of them to play by the rules, but there's so many question marks. And again, it really comes down to the very simple fact of, I do think that with the right amount of smarts, somebody could rig that door. And really his alibi is the lock on that door. Like you said earlier, Captain, I don't think it's impossible for somebody to lock that door behind them.

[Ashley]

I know he could do it because I've done it myself. Look, if you've listened to hundreds of episodes of True Crime Garage, you should now know that if the captain says he can do it, anybody could do it.

[Captain]

Yeah. That specific lock you're saying on you've done it on one, that.

[Ashley]

That looks very similar. Yeah, I'm not sure I've done it on. On that apartment itself.

[Captain]

Right. So let's, let's. Let me describe this. So it would be like you have this latch and you would turn it, right?

[Ashley]

You would.

[Captain]

You would turn it toward the door to the left. And the latch is. In this scenario, this lock is basically two metal pieces that the two metal arms that connect at the end. And when you put it, move it over to the left, it covers up and it. It encases that bolt or that metal ball. And then when the door is opened, it doesn't matter if there's any other lock on the door, because that would take effect first if somebody tried to open up the door. If there's any other lock, that lock would prevent them from opening the door before this lock even comes into play. Now, if they get past any other lock or the door is not locked with any other mechanism, then what would happen is a person could open the door and then this ball catches onto the metal, and eventually you can't move the door anymore and you really can only move the door. What would you say, Captain? An inch and a half, maybe three inches at the most?

[Ashley]

Yeah. I mean, it, it acts similar, like you were saying before to. Like a chain on. On a door.

[Captain]

Correct.

[Ashley]

But also when you have now your lawyer, your representative going to collect your suit, which again, that's. That makes a lot of sense, and it somewhat makes sense to me that you'd take both laptops if you didn't know which one was your clients. I'm going to take both of them.

[Captain]

Or, hell, we'll take the whole apartment. Because we've been told by police it's not a crime scene.

[Ashley]

Right. And that's a mistake by law enforcement, but it's also a mistake. Why didn't law enforcement take her cell phone? Because to me, if he states that he is gone. Right. A couple things. Let's say he takes her cell phone with him. Well, then we would have movement on that cell phone. So if that cell phone Tracked all the way to the gym. Then we would know that this boyfriend somehow took her phone, went to the gym. So then when he's texting her, we know that those are bullshit texts. So then we'd know that he's lying about the security guard, we'd know he's lying about the text. Therefore, he's basically lying about everything. So my other question then for law enforcement is why haven't you given this phone back to the family? And is there any digital forensics that we could do to have a better understanding of what happened that day, or.

[Captain]

Is there a way to prove? And if it depends on the outfit that's doing the investigation, because everybody's. We've talked about this very recently with the park bench murders case, the cracking of these phones. What is. Would there be any indicators to people that have this expertise to be able to point to things and go, well, this suggests that something was scrubbed from the phone. This is an indicator that something was deleted and buried on the phone, and we can't retrieve it. Because if there's activity that goes beyond what. What we believe that we have here now, that we can review now, then it starts to tell us that maybe something else actually happened and that maybe there was something that led up to this explosion. What that would tell us. I don't think it's suggestive of either outcome because I would expect to see something. But. But either way, either if she did this to herself or if she was attacked. It was a frenzied attack. It was a frenzied attack. Violent suicide. It could have all happened very quickly, but I gotta believe it's reactionary. Either one, it's a. It's a very difficult case, and I'm a little worried. And I'm worried, Captain, because I was really excited when I saw that the Greenbergs finally got what they deserved, that this. This case was mishandled. And so who. Who be it for them to tell me that my daughter committed suicide when it looks to me like you've not handled this properly all along. And then the other thing, this is another part that's really aggravating is it seems to be based off of court documents and filings and protocol that the medical examiner's office put a lot of weight in the idea that the security man and I. I know that that's a really dumb term, but that's. That's how he's referred to in a lot of these different tellings of the story. So we'll stick with that. That the security man was present with Sam when he broke down the door. It sounds like the medical examiner's office put a lot of weight in that fact. Now we later learn, based off of Philip Hanton's statement, that he did not escort Sam up to the sixth floor. He was not present when the door was busted. In fact, police, there is evidence surveillance footage of Sam going up to the sixth floor by himself, unaccompanied. He's in the elevator all by himself. One really aggravating part of this is we can sit here and go, well, we, we're concerned about what they didn't collect at the, at the scene, what they didn't collect at the building, what work was not done. But one thing that we can say is when that footage of Sam going up to the sixth floor by himself, when they found that footage, they didn't find it at the apartment complex. They found. The police had that. So we know they collected that. We know that for all these years, they knew that he went up there by himself. Well, how the hell does the right arm not know what the hell the left arm is doing? Why was so much weight put into that to begin with? And then second of all, it seems to me like everybody was. Everybody that had a hand in this being ruled a suicide simply thought 100% that there's no way for that door to be locked other than from locking it from the inside.

[Ashley]

Are you confused yet or are you leaning one way or, or another? Well, you should let us [e-mail] Cheers to you, Colonel. Talkhands in the air I think the big question for me at the start is just simply, could somebody do this to themselves? Is this a type of suicide that we see? We hear about people shooting themselves or overdosing, but this is not a common manner of suicide. So I think that's the first thing that you have to wrap your head around if you're thinking this is a suicide. And I, and I think with all the communication with her family and friends, that if it would have been a overdose or, or some other manner that I think the family would understand that could see signs. You know, it's, it's always after the fact that people will see more signs, obviously. But I think the manner in which this took place, this tragic event, it just doesn't make a lot of logical sense to most people. And I think that's the, you know, the big red flag. But I also can't get past the idea that within, within a couple hours, you're going to be getting the statements from the boyfriend, you're going to be getting the statements from the security guard. And when those statements don't line up, my question if I'm law enforcement, is why? Why don't they line up? Did he misspeak or did he lie? And if he lied, what is the reason for that? And again, then it's, don't clean up the crime scene. Give me a few days. And that doesn't mean you have to go back multiple times to the crime scene. It could just simply be, let me collect all the evidence, let me review all the evidence to see if there's anything, if there's any necessary reason to go back into that apartment. But here's the problem. They didn't even do that correctly. They didn't collect her cell phone, they didn't collect the computers. And they should have done that immediately. Whether they were leaning towards suicide or not, they should have. Again, it's like a broken record. Investigate it as a homicide until you figure out it's not a homicide.

[Captain]

And, and most departments will behave that way. Most investigators are taught to conduct their protocols and their investigation as such. Now, I will say something in defense of the detectives here. We talked about this in our Pendleton quadruple homicide case. One thing that we pointed out that the detectives did great, was a good call on their end, was that when they arrived on the scene at the. This horrific scene, four people dead in the same residence. They recognized right away that every person that lived in that dwelling is now deceased. None of them can give me, the detective, permission to take anything from the scene. In fact, I don't. I, I mean, I could start looking around, but it, but if I want all of this to hold up in court, what I need to do here is I need to get the proper channels and get a search warrant so I can start looking through everything at the scene and pull things out of here. Philadelphia PD did do this. In this situation, they did the same thing. They didn't pull out a bunch of items. And I don't blame them for not doing so. I, I, and I know what you're saying here, Captain. I, you're not saying that they never were going to collect these items. That's not the error they made. You're. You're not saying that they not collecting them that night was, was the error that they made because we know they wanted to collect these items and they were going to do it properly and get the search warrant. We know that because they did get a search warrant, and they executed that search warrant. The following day, the major screw up is when they allowed other people back into that scene because those people removed things that were on their list of items that they wanted to collect. And I believe that these items were in the possession of Schwarzman or. And. Or Sam Goldberg for approximately two days before they made their way to police as part of that search warrant. One part where I really struggle in this case, too, is the number of wounds, because there's so much of me, man, that says there's no way. I. I think that at some point, 20 wounds is too many, that she wouldn't have been able to do all of that. That I do agree with the thought that maybe at some point she would have been incapacitated to the point where she couldn't continue to harm herself. I agree. I feel so strongly about that. But at the same time, I can review a case that we. That we know all the facts of with an individual like Artie Lang from the Howard Stern Show. He chugged a bottle of bleach and stabbed himself in the stomach nine times and slit his wrist. So he was able to do all that. And thankfully, his mother finds him and he's rushed off to the hospital and they're able to save his life. But I mean, to me, when I'm. When I'm really trying to analyze this and we're. We're already behind the eight ball here, Captain, because we're not doctors, we're not pathologists. We have to rely. We have to rely on these experts. And, oh, by the way, we have different experts telling us different findings. In this one particular case, I. I tell everybody, you know, if you got a buddy that's bitching and complaining, like, oh, man, I got $4,500 to get my truck fixed. What's wrong with it? This, that and the other thing. Did you get a second opinion? No, no, no. But they're bitching and complaining about the $4,500. Right. Like, you friend don't know vehicles. Why would you just believe, blindly believe this one person, Take it and get a second opinion before you shell out 4,500 bucks. You might find the next mechanic, whether he's he or she's better or worse at their job than the previous one, might come up with an entirely different diagnosis that has a different price tag on it. And that, to me, seems like the situation that we have here in this case where it's get a second opinion and that one's different. It's a strange and unfortunate case because regardless, there's no way to feel good about any type of winning in this case, if you're right, that it's a suicide. This poor family has suffered in disbelief for all these years and spent a lot of their time and effort to. To change the ruling. If it was suicide. This poor young man, Sam Goldberg, lost somebody very near and dear to him, and this young lady was suffering so terribly that she did this to herself. Even if you can prove that, that doesn't feel good, but if you can prove the reverse, maybe it feels worse.

[Dr. Greenberg]

It's.

[Captain]

There's just like no winning in this case. And it's really. I'm happy for the Goldbergs because they did finally get the outcome that they wanted. The outcome that I think is correct and that this case needs to be reevaluated, it needs to be reinvestigated, I.

[Ashley]

Feel becomes time, though.

[Captain]

Yes. And that's what I'm saying. I'm worried that it took so long to get this one part of the investigation changed. Do you have any confidence that it's that. That they're going to be able to see this thing through and fight and if she. If they do say it was absolutely a homicide, that they'll end up with charging somebody, Just don't feel good about it in any way at all?

[Ashley]

Yeah. The three questions that kept ringing in my mind was, one, is it even possible to commit suicide in this manner? Two, what actions of the boyfriend were the most concerning? And then three, now with this reversal, is there any chance of us getting answers? I hate when people say, well, the family deserves closure. The answers might not lead towards closure, but will they even get answers? And I just. Because of the time, the passing of time, I just think that's going to be impossible.

[Captain]

And to make sure that we do a good job of cleaning our plates here today, I know that there'll be a person or two out there that will say, you guys didn't even evaluate the 911 call. Look, the 911 call sounds weird to me. Does that mean anything? No, I. Frankly, I think that the majority of 911 calls, they all seem for one. Another reason. For one reason or another sound weird to me. The person making the call sounds weird to me at different parts. I do feel like he. Some of it is a put on. I don't. But again, I don't know how I would react in that situation, finding a person the way that he says that he found her. And so I don't put a lot of effort into analyzing the 911 call, but I'm glad that we played it at the top of our coverage of this case because it is, it tells you right away that the level of mystery that that is going to be seen throughout this case, it really sets the stage for the strangeness and uncertainty that that come with this case. Where I said that I feel not good earlier, I will say that I do feel good about this, that I do think that everything is heading in the right direction, the direction that it should have been going in a long time ago. As far as Samuel Goldberg goes, one question that a lot of people have when they review this case is, well, 14 years after her death, five years of litigation to get this far in the case. Well, where is Sam Goldberg now? And I can only tell you what the Internet tells me. But for my understanding, Captain, he is lives a private life. He has a wife, he has a family, he's works as a TV producer. I think CNN said that he's credited with some lesser known small films. I've also seen people suggest that at some point he was a producer on some sports show. But that's as much as we know about Sam Goldberg today. And we've had much more eyes on the Greenbergs throughout this whole process as they've been openly fighting to get this changed for their document.

[Ashley]

Very difficult case. We want to hear from you. Head over to true crimegarage.com and leave a comment on the blog. Colonel do we have any recommended reading for the beautiful, beautiful listeners for everyone.

[Captain]

That'S been listening for the month of February. You already are aware that all of the beer fund donations for the month of February are going to go to Keeping Our Girls Safe. It's a wonderful organization that was created to honor Ohio murder victim Sierra Jogan. In 2016, Sierra went for a bicycle ride in rural northwest Ohio. Sierra was kidnapped less than 500ft from her home and it was later learned that she had been murdered by a very dangerous man, a man who was previously convicted of violent offenses. He was a violent offender that should never have been out on the streets. James Worley killed Sierra. Keeping Our Girls Safe is a grassroots organization created in her memory and created to honor this young woman. And more importantly, created to advocate for young ladies everywhere, to educate young ladies everywhere, empower them and fight against violence towards women everywhere. This organization, they offer free survival classes, free self defense classes focused on women's safety. They do a lot of these classes at high schools in the state of Ohio. So for the month of February, True Crime Garage has committed all beer fund donations to going to the Keeping Our Girls Safe nonprofit organization. And as a thank you for your help in this effort, we will choose three Beer Fund contributors at random and mail them a Keep Our Girl Safe safety pack which includes a door alarm, a window alarm, seat belt cutter, window breaker for your car, self defense keychain, a flashlight self defense tip card and we're going to include a signed copy of my book the Delphi Murders as well. For more information you can go to kog safe.com that stands for keeping our girls safe.com for more information. And to everyone that's already contributed to the Beer Fund for the month of February, we thank you and thank you.

[Ashley]

So much for listening. Until next week. Be good, be kind and don't litter.

[Captain]

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