Park Bench Murders /// Part 2 /// 821

Summary

True Crime Garage Episode Summary: "Park Bench Murders /// Part 2 /// 821"

Release Date: February 12, 2025
Hosts: Nic (Narrator) and the Captain

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Introduction to the Case

In this gripping second part of the "Park Bench Murders" series, hosts Nic and the Captain delve deeper into the unresolved double homicide of Kate Brown, age 33, and Carnell Sledge, age 40, which occurred on June 4, 2019, at Rocky River Fairview Park Reservation in Cleveland, Ohio. Despite four years passing since the tragic event, the case remains unsolved, leaving the families and community desperate for answers.

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Investigation Stagnation and Public Appeal

Nic begins by referencing a Cleveland Scene article published shortly after an episode of "Unsolved Mysteries" covered the case. The article, titled "Four Years Later, Officials Report No Progress in Metro Park's Double Homicide Case. But Fresh Hope Comes with National Coverage," highlights the frustration with the lack of progress despite numerous tips and interviews.

Nic [04:29]: "Investigators have gotten many scores of tips and conducted some 270 interviews, but who killed Carnell Sledge and Catherine 'Kate' Brown remains a mystery."

The FBI, alongside the Cleveland Division, has offered significant rewards—up to $20,000 from the FBI and $2,500 from Crime Stoppers—to incentivize new information.

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Families' Frustration with Police Handling

The Captain and Nic express the families' confusion and dissatisfaction with the Metro Parks Police Department's handling of the investigation. A key point of contention is the refusal to involve the VDOC Society, a nonprofit group of retired criminal investigators known for assisting in complex cases.

Captain [06:13]: "There is some confusion from the families because it seems like Carnell's family thinks someone in Kate's life wanted her dead, while Kate's family sees no such threat to her."

Nic criticizes the interim Ranger Chief, Kelly Tillman, for rejecting the involvement of the VDOC Society, which could have provided valuable investigative insights.

Nic [07:07]: "When you get pissed, let's get pissed."

The families believe that crucial investigative steps, such as thoroughly vetting the witness referred to as the "roofer" and searching his vehicle for firearms, were neglected.

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Suspicious Witness Handling: The "Roofer" Charles Adams

A significant focus of the episode is the mysterious witness known only as Charles Adams, a roofer who was present at the scene. Despite his proximity to the crime and a history of violence, he remains largely unnamed and uninvestigated.

Nic [17:48]: "I think their intuition is spot on here. The information we've uncovered is that he is a gun nut... they likely would have found at least one firearm on his person."

Adams was present before, during, and after the murders, yet received minimal questioning and was allowed to leave the scene without a thorough search of his vehicle.

Captain [10:17]: "I don't understand actions by anybody in a case that when you hear about the actions, it's counterintuitive to solving a murder case."

Nic draws parallels to previous cases, emphasizing the inadequate time frame investigators had to eliminate Adams as a suspect based on his alibis and presence.

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Potential Connection via Tinder

The hosts explore a possible connection between Adams and Kate Brown through the dating app Tinder. Both individuals were active on the platform around the time of the murders, raising questions about whether they had interacted or matched, potentially linking Adams to the crime.

Nic [24:52]: "It's conceivable that if Kate was actively using Tinder, there's a chance that they could have matched just from proximity and age."

This theory is bolstered by the fact that Adams lived near Kate's apartment complex, making a Tinder match plausible.

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Investigative Shortcomings and Speculations

Nic and the Captain critique the investigative methods employed, including the lack of a thorough search for suppressors despite the low-caliber .22 caliber weapon used in the murders. They highlight how the investigation's shortcomings—such as not utilizing geofencing technology or fully examining Adams' vehicle—may have hindered progress.

Nic [33:28]: "There's still plenty of time to get justice for these two lovely people that were killed on a park bench on a Tuesday."

The discussion also touches upon the delayed and insufficient communication between the Metro Parks Police and the families, further eroding trust and complicating the search for answers.

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Call for Public Assistance and Increased Rewards

The episode culminates with a heartfelt plea to listeners to assist in solving the case. Kate Brown's sister, Alex Zubin, and father, Tom Brown, have increased the reward for information to $100,000, underscoring their desperation for justice.

Eric Smith [29:10]: "Law enforcement will not rest until Kate and Carnell's killer is brought to justice."

The hosts encourage anyone with pertinent information to contact Crime Stoppers or the FBI Cleveland Field Office, emphasizing the critical role public assistance plays in solving such heinous crimes.

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Conclusion and Final Thoughts

In conclusion, Nic and the Captain express their skepticism regarding the Metro Parks Police Department's ability to solve the case without external assistance. They advocate for a more collaborative effort between local authorities and federal agencies to bring closure to the victims' families.

Captain [43:35]: "Thanks for sharing these cases on social media and putting pressure on law enforcement to do their job to serve, protect and solve these crimes."

The episode ends with a reminder of the ongoing quest for justice and the importance of community involvement in uncovering the truth behind the Park Bench Murders.

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Notable Quotes:

• Eric Smith [01:47]: "Law enforcement will not rest until Kate and Carnell's killer is brought to justice."
• Captain [10:17]: "I don't understand actions by anybody in a case that when you hear about the actions, it's counterintuitive to solving a murder case."
• Nic [33:28]: "There's still plenty of time to get justice for these two lovely people that were killed on a park bench on a Tuesday."

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Final Call to Action:

Listeners are urged to contribute to the beer fund supporting "Keeping Our Girls Safe" and to provide any information that could aid in solving the Park Bench Murders. Donations and tips can be submitted through Crime Stoppers or directly to the FBI Cleveland Field Office.

Nic [43:55]: "Be good, be kind and don't litter."

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This episode serves as a compelling examination of the complexities and frustrations surrounding unsolved crimes, highlighting the pivotal role that public engagement and thorough investigations play in delivering justice.

Transcript

[Narrator]

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[Captain]

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[Narrator]

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[Eric Smith]

We.

[Narrator]

Are using all available resources to bring justice of the victims of this tragedy. We continue to use all available resources in this investigation. With the support from the Cleveland Division of the FBI and the Cuyahoga County Medical Examiner's Office, I'd now like to introduce Special Agent in Charge of the Cleveland Division of the FBI Eric Smith.

[Eric Smith]

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Eric Smith. I am the Special Agent in Charge of the Cleveland Division of the FBI. I want to start by thanking the Cleveland Metro Parks and the Cleveland Metro Parks Police Department for their partnership and their professionalism in our collective pursuit of justice. For Kate Brass in Carnell Sledge As Chief Dolan has already laid out some of the publicly releasable facts in this unsolved case, I would like to ask the public for assistance. The area known as the pull off lot north of the Lorain Road Bridge in the Cleveland Metro Park's Rocky River Fairview Park Reservation is in a highly trafficked area, especially in the late afternoon and early evening weekday hours. There are numerous joggers, walkers, bicyclists, kayaker and even vehicles cutting through the area to avoid interstate backups. And this is true for this area on any given day. Tuesday, June 4th was a nice warm early evening, temperatures in the mid-70s and accordingly, there were plenty of people and plenty of activity in the park. We're asking the public to take a look at the maps displayed here. If you were in the area on the evening of Tuesday, June 4, between 4:30 and 5:30pm Please contact Law enforcement immediately. You may have seen something that will give us the key to solve this investigation. A critical piece of information that will lead us to who is responsible for this horrific double homicide. You may think that what you saw was nothing or was unrelated. We are asking you not to dismiss anything. Let law enforcement make that decision and we need your assistance. Reward money has been offered by the FBI up to $20,000 and by Crime Stoppers up to 2,500 DOL for tips that lead us to the identification and prosecution of the person or persons responsible. Tips can remain anonymous and can be provided to Cleveland Metro Parks, the Cleveland FBI, or Crime Stoppers. We want to hold the individuals accountable that have committed this horrific act, and we also want to provide answers to Kate and Carnell's family and friends.

[Narrator]

I want to get into parts of this article because it goes a little more into detail about some questions that I have about the case and questions I believe that you share about this case as well. This is from the Cleveland Scene, which is a fantastic alternative weekly newspaper based out of Cleveland, Ohio. This article's headline is Four Years later, Officials report no progress in Metro Park's double homicide case. But fresh hope comes with national coverage. So this came out, this article came out two days after the the Unsolved Mysteries episode. They're hoping that that would rejuvenate the investigation. So I'm only going to read parts of this here. Some of the parts here say this investigators have gotten many scores of tips and conducted some 270 interviews. But who killed Carnell Sledge, age 40, and Catherine Kate Brown, age 33, of Fairview park in the Rocky River Reservation on June 4, 2019, remains a mystery. They've received 165 tips during the course of this investigation. The Metro Parks Police say that they are in regular communications with the families and that their priority remains bringing justice to the victims and their families. But Tom Brown, Kate Brown's father, disagrees with the statement. He finds it inconceivable that the Metro Park's police haven't made any progress in solving the killings or that they claim to have routine contact with the family. So both families, Nell's family and Kate's family, has expressed openly multiple times their concern about the lack of communication from the Metro Parks police.

[Captain]

There is some confusion from the families because it seems like Carnell's family is like, well, we, we don't have any reason to believe that somebody hated Carnell and wanted him dead. So we think there's somebody in Kate's life that possibly wanted her dead. And then Kate's family is like, well, there's nobody in Kate's life that we think wanted her dead. So we think Carnell was the target.

[Narrator]

Yeah. And when you see and read interviews with the family members, they are at a loss. They really are. The longer that this investigation drags on, the more questions they seem to have. Now a group that probably could have provided some assistance or Some answers to a lot of those questions is the Vidoc Society. So this angers me to, to a whole nother level here, Captain.

[Captain]

When you get pissed, let's get pissed.

[Narrator]

Okay, So a man named Kelly Tillman became the interim Ranger Chief. So from my understanding, that's the highest ranking Metro Parks officer, basically the chief of police. He was in. Keep in mind it's interim position. So I don't believe he was there too very long, but he took the position in November of 2021. So he, he's already behind the eight ball because this was not his case as a chief. It happened in 2019. He takes over in November of 2021. But the problem with him taking over, in my opinion, is that there was already something in the works. So at the time, lead investigator was Nick Valenti. He had a proposal to the Metro Parks Police Department to bring in the VDOC Society, which is a nonprofit 82 member group of retired professional criminal investigators who are willing to assist in cases. We've talked about them before, they've done some brilliant work. And look, they, they don't just step in and review a case and solve 100% of them that that's not how these things work. But they can offer their long time expertise in offering different types of expertise and information and angles for the investigation and telling you, hey, maybe you should take your investigation here or maybe you missed this. Here's these couple of items that you should go back and review. The lead investigator, Nick Valenti says that the V Doc Society was willing to assist in the Kate Brown and Nell Sledge murder case. The VDOC Society accepts both cold cases and ongoing investigations that are at least two years or older, but only if invited in by the jurisdictional Law Enforcement agency, which of course in this case would be the Metro Parks. They only accept a few cases each year. And with them saying that yeah, we're willing to take this one on, that is good news. Because a lot of cases they don't take on. Most they don't. This was good news. This guy steps in as the chief and says, nope, we're going to nix that. We don't need to bring in any other foreign agency. We don't need the VDOC Society helping in this case. So the Cleveland scene doing their due diligence, they went and wanted answers and said that. They came away saying that the Metro Park's police department declined to comment on why they won't allow other agencies to assist in the investigation. And we already talked about the Metro Parks removing the signs. But the browns point out, like, why would you do that? They. This was bringing in tips. And you are actively. And the FBI put up $20,000 asking the public for assistance. You were actively asking the public for help for information. And you keep saying over and over again that somebody must have seen something or heard something, somebody knows something. We need this person to come forward. Yet you're forcing this family to take down these signs which the brown family says were providing tips to law enforcement. Those signs were actively collecting tips for law enforcement.

[Captain]

I don't understand actions by anybody in a case that when you hear about the actions, it's counterintuitive on solving a murder case. Right? Well, we have these posters up. We're going to take those posters down. Well, isn't that counterintuitive to solving the crime?

[Narrator]

Yeah.

[Captain]

Why are you doing that? And then also, like, we. We reach out for help, we get accepted, but then we don't accept the help that's also counterintuitive to solving the.

[Narrator]

Crime from an elite group.

[Captain]

Is it possible that there's somebody that maybe the metro parks feel is involved in this crime and that it's an internal matter?

[Narrator]

I don't suspect that. I think that when I continue on with this article, you'll. I think you might have end up sharing the same suspicions that I have as far as the metro parks police concerned. So let's talk about some of this other stuff that's in the article. Alex zubin, this is Kate's younger sister, says that she knew intimate details of Kate's life, but when she made suggestions to investigators, they ignored or postponed her. She's saying when we suggested other ways to get information from Kate's phone for evidence, they refused our ideas. And she goes on to say that when I suggested that they look into certain contacts of Kate, they never did any follow up on those contacts that she provided to them. Of course, the sledges are. The sledge family are equally as disappointed as the browns that the metro park's refusal to allow the v doc society to help with the investigation. Now, the kayakers slash witnesses. They didn't hear anything, see anything other than unfortunately finding the bodies and calling 91 1. They are Tony and Caitlin Vacca. And that's V A C H A. So I apologize if I. If I'm getting their names incorrect. But Caitlin, one of the kayakers, shares that she and her husband Tony were trying to find a spot to launch and that's when they found the bodies. She says the experience Haunts her still to this day. And she even broke down during the course of talking to the reporter here for this article. And Caitlyn feels strongly that investigators handled the crime scene poorly. Quote, I kept thinking about the first responders, she says, how they should have closed the road and not touched the bodies. We thought it was odd that they let people on the scene go so soon. I thought they were very casual. They allowed a guy who pulled up just before the police arrived to walk his dog through the area. And then they told us we could leave. According to public reports, including police audio recordings from the crime scene and accounts from the witnesses who discovered the bodies, Metro Parks police failed to shut down the Valley Parkway for close to 45 minutes. And then let's circle back to something here because it's right here in the article. Public records also show that the witness sitting in his pickup truck parked in the close by lot during the killing says he didn't see or hear anything because he was immersed in work on his laptop. Caitlin, one of the kayakers, says she observed him sitting in his pickup truck and that he didn't get out until after police arrived. She also said investigators didn't do thorough questioning of witnesses at the crime scene, saying, quote, I've always wondered about the guy sitting in the truck. I mean, I was right there crying. Clearly things were happening, but he stayed in his truck, end quote. Tony, Caitlyn's husband, is the other witness who found the bodies. He says he was surprised by the lack of crime scene protocol. Quote, there was no police tape, no boundaries to protect the evidence. Worse, they didn't question witnesses. They the way they should have. They treated it like a stolen package off of someone's porch. Kate's sister Lauren echoes the kayaker's comments, saying the witness who was sitting in his pickup truck nearby at the time of the killings was let go, then called back later. He was not tested at the crime scene for gunpowder. And then we have Carnell's friend. This is Jeff Schwartz, who says he feels the Metro Parks bungled the investigation since the get go. Quote, everything that could go wrong from the beginning has. He says, I would rather have a detective from Law and Order trying to solve this. Now in episode 660, I pointed out the inexperience that the Metro Parks has with homicides. Even better reason to bring in somebody like the VDOC Society. We do know in their defense they did bring in the FBI, Right? So the FBI has been some part.

[Captain]

Of this, the mffbi, but it's also not just a homicide. It's a double homicide.

[Narrator]

Yeah. And according to Unsolved Mysteries, both families have a lot of questions about the man in the truck, the man sitting in his truck, the witness that saw nothing, heard nothing, and is referred to only as the roofer. On Unsolved Mysteries, both families have said, we want to know more about this witness.

[Captain]

Right? Absolutely. You'd want to know more about him. You'd want to know more about the kayakers, too.

[Narrator]

So we here at True Crime Garage said the same thing. We want to know more about this roofer, the guy in the truck. Because per police, we only have three known potential witnesses. The kayaking couple and the roofer, the man in the truck. But the kayakers are named on Unsolved Mysteries and they're named again in multiple articles, including the Cleveland Scene article that I just reviewed with all of you. Why isn't the roofer named on Unsolved Mysteries or in any article?

[Captain]

Because it's fishy.

[Narrator]

So here. Here's the problem. There's a lot of problems. Okay, so they did talk to this roofer guy, right? They are claiming, they being Metro Park's detectives, are claiming that he couldn't have done it because he was. We. We checked his electronics and he was doing what he said he was doing at the time he was working. The reports I have, is that that park bench again, this is the statement from law enforcement is the park bench where they were killed is visible from this parking lot, invisible from the road that runs to that parking lot, that gravel lot. We know based off of the dash cam footage from the detective that there were only five cars in that lot when they arrived on the scene. And this again, it's 11 minute window when they were killed. Because we can, based off of witness statements, we can surmise that they were killed before the kayakers arrived. Why? Because we know from police statements that the roofer was there before, during and after the murders. According to the kayakers, he never gets. They arrive. They then find the bodies. They call 911 and they wait for police. Police arrive. The roofer never gets out of the pickup truck until after police are on the scene.

[Captain]

Well, so am I nuts to think that law enforcement has some eyewitness that can put his truck, the roofer's truck, in that lot before there's any other vehicles?

[Narrator]

They don't have to. He puts himself there.

[Captain]

Right.

[Narrator]

Okay, so then on top of that.

[Captain]

Now, so he's telling law enforcement, I was there. I was doing this work Two other people pulled in.

[Narrator]

Yeah, because they're going to say, what time did you arrive? And, oh, you're still here while we're on the scene. So they know that he's there prior to they being. Law enforcement have said he was there before Carnell and Kate arrived. He was there before the kayakers arrived. Kayakers arrived and find the two dead. Now, when police arrive on the scene, we have five vehicles. This is literally minutes after the two were killed. There's an 11 minute window when they were killed. Police were on the scene probably six minutes to eight minutes after that 11 minute window. And when they pull up, we can see from their dashboard camera footage that there are five vehicles in that lot. Two belong to the victims. One belong to the pickup truck, roofer guy. One belongs to the kayakers. The fifth vehicle belongs to the guy that the kayakers reference saying that they question the crime scene because they let a guy that showed up to walk his dog, walk his dog through the area. So that guy shows up after the kayakers, but before the police. So he didn't kill him unless he for some weird reason came back to the scene and wanted to be there when police were arriving. Let's go back to what we had said earlier. This is the. The area is known as a pull off lot. It's highly trafficked. Numerous joggers, walkers, kayakers, vehicles cut through the area, so forth and so on. Why isn't this roofer named? The kayakers are named. We did some digging. The roofer is Charles Adams, that's his name. He's referred to as the roofer. And Unsolved mysteries. Unsolved mysteries. In these articles, apparently there's things that were either not known, what I believe to be not known. I don't think that these things were purposely left out. But his statements to police is this. He did not hear any gunshots. But what he tells police is, I didn't hear anything. So it must have been a low caliber weapon, possibly a.22. Well, it was a.22 that killed the victims. So I guess. Good guess there. Chuck, when asked if he see the victims, so he says, yeah, I saw these people arrive, I didn't see anybody else arrive. Right. I see the victims arrive, then I saw the kayakers arrive. Did you see them shot? No, I saw them. I thought they were sleeping. And I want to, I want to be clear here. I don't know if his statement was I saw them or I saw Carnell and I thought he was sleeping. Because from this vantage point from this guy's pickup truck, he would have been able to see the park bench. And therefore, we can take that a little bit further and make the assumption that if he could see the park bench, he could see Cardinal lying next to it after having been shot. The family wants to know more about. The families want to know more about this guy, and I agree with that. I think their intuition is spot on here. The information we've uncovered is that he is a gun nut, referred to as a gun nut, who not only owned firearms, but is believed to have carried them at most times. There are people out there very close to this investigation that have a firm belief that had they searched his truck or him at the scene, that they likely would have found at least one firearm on his person. Now, we know based off of the statements from the Brown family and the kayakers, that the police talked to him briefly and then let him go and then decided to call him back to the scene.

[Captain]

Yeah, not a good move.

[Narrator]

Wouldn't. Wouldn't you, at the very least, like, say, all right, we need kayakers, roofer, we need you guys to stay at the scene. And, oh, by the way, would you mind if we could search your vehicles? Because, hell, you find a firearm in somebody's vehicle at the scene, you probably get. You probably got the murderer. Later, we find out that this individual, the roofer, has failed at least one polygraph test. I believe that it was conducted by the FBI. And we do know that he has a history of violence and has since left the state of Ohio. He no longer resides here in the state of Ohio.

[Captain]

Do we know how long after the murders it was that he moved away?

[Narrator]

I couldn't find confirmation of that other than it was several months. So it wasn't like he up and skipped town immediately or the week after.

[Captain]

Do we know what the violent charges were?

[Narrator]

At least one domestic case. So possibly this hates women that he was convicted of. This isn't suspicion. This isn't accusations. This is. He was convicted of it. So a history. A known history of violence. All right, let's take this a step further here, because there's actually a potential connection between Charles the roofer and one of the victims.

[Captain]

Really? Oh, really?

[Narrator]

So remember, we had said. You had said that, Kate. Rightfully so. She lived in an apartment complex, a very large apartment complex, very near the crime scene, and that is in large part why she would frequent that portion of the park. She would often exercise there, go there for walks, take in the. The natural beauty of the Scenery and also meet people there regularly. Friends, acquaintances, you know, rather than dropping by my apartment. Hey, it's beautiful out. There's this beautiful park that's so very close to my home, my apartment. Let's meet there. This man lived in the. Lived not far from the park as well. So he lives almost directly across from Kate's apartment building at the time of the murders. Now the other part too is it was discovered that around the time of the murders, Charles the roofer was having multiple affairs, utilizing Tinder to set up dates and set up these encounters with women. It's conceivable that if Kate was actively using Tinder, that there's a chance that they could have matched just from proximity and age. They were both about the same age and they both lived in the same area. And now compound that information with what they. Brown's family. Kate Brown's family is saying on Unsolved Mysteries that she was actively using Tinder at the time of her murder.

[Captain]

Yeah, she went on a date using Tinder, I think like a couple days before the murders. And so then we, we got a question. Well, why is Carnell there? Is it possible that she's like, hey, Carnell, I've been, I've been matched with this guy on Tinder. I'm going to meet him at the park. Do you mind coming with me?

[Narrator]

I got to break it off.

[Captain]

Yeah, break it off. Or maybe it's. You're meeting them for the first time and so you have a friend there, you meet. And the thought is, if it's going well, then we'll continue on our date and you go about your business. Carnell goes about his business and goes back to his family's house.

[Narrator]

I.

[Captain]

The Tinder connection is very strange. They would have had to, like you said, because of the age range and because of proximity. I believe Tinder is all about how there's like, parameters that you put in when you're looking for individuals. So they're going to show you people that are in your close area.

[Narrator]

Yeah, the. The colonel's not looking for 80 year old women who live in India. Right. You're. You would be looking for. It's conceivable that you're probably looking for somebody about your same age range. And it would make sense that they, they live or, or work or frequent similar areas.

[Captain]

Yeah.

[Narrator]

Close proximity.

[Captain]

The captain's going to start a dating app called Close areas.

[Narrator]

Here's the thing. And it makes you wonder, did the interim chief not want the assistance of the V doc Society because they're going to review this and go, what the hell? Guys, this guy in the pickup truck, you let him go from the scene with a, with a very general statement that doesn't make any sense. We know he was there before, during and after the murders. He didn't hear anything. He didn't see anything. He tells you that. Oh, I didn't hear anything. It must have been a small caliber weapon, like a.22. The.20. A.22 caliber weapon. It turns out to be the murder weapon. And, oh, I saw one of the victims and I thought he was sleeping. Who sleeps? Look, maybe I, you know, I've seen homeless people, you know, I like to call them houseless people sleeping in the park during the daytime. Not a lot. It's very rare. But I have witnessed this. So maybe that was his statement to police. But, but then the other. There's a lot of problems I have here too. So the FBI comes in and the FBI says, look, we've done everything we can. We sent this to our behavioral science unit for a profile. Well, if you guys really want help from the public, where's the profile? Right? As vanilla as it may be, release some of the profile or all of the profile to the public. I hate when law enforcement limps in asking for help from the public.

[Captain]

Yeah. Now join this.

[Narrator]

Help me to help you, Help me to help you. The more, the more that we know, the better we can help in the situation.

[Captain]

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[Narrator]

Our family's lives were changed forever. The moment we were told our beloved Kate was brutally murdered.

[Captain]

Kate's sister, Alex Zuban, spoke alongside her father, Tom Brown, today as they announced an increase to the reward for information that helped solve this Metro Parks murder mystery. As a family, we have raised an additional $70,000. This raises the total reward to $100,000 for information. Metro Park's rangers and the FBI acknowledge they don't have much to go on.

[Narrator]

But they remain relentless, promising to work.

[Captain]

The case as if it happened yesterday.

[Eric Smith]

Law enforcement will not rest until Kate and Carnell's killer is brought to justice.

[Captain]

Meanwhile, Alex and Tom continue to praise the sister and daughter they miss so much.

[Narrator]

Kate was my best friend. Talked every day. I still call her and leave her voicemails.

[Captain]

She was at the top of her game. She was enjoying life. She loved going down to the park. She would go down with her mom and play cards, sit on a blanket. I can't believe we're standing here.

[Narrator]

Anyone with information should call Crime Stoppers.

[Captain]

Or Metro Park's rangers knowing they can help a family heal while remaining anonymous. All right, we are back. Cheers, mates. Cheers to the people in the front, back, the sides. Cheers to you. Colonel, there are so many questions. In this case. We have these two individuals. I guess the first question is why were they meeting at the park? Why was he meeting at the time that he was supposed to be going over to his family's house? What were they going to be talking about? What was talked about on the cell phone call before they met up? Was anybody following them? Or was or was the suspect there at the time of the murders? Was the suspect just passing by? Why didn't this eyewitness hear anything, see anything when he was there, just feet away from the crime scene? Doesn't make any sense. Let's dive more into this quote, unquote, eyewitness. So is there anything that we can learn about this eyewitness's history? Does he have any prior convictions? Is he a violent individual?

[Narrator]

That's the thing. I want to be clear here. Prior to the homicides, I don't know if he has a history of violence.

[Captain]

Right.

[Narrator]

I believe that. That the. What? His conviction came after the murders. But regardless, he has a history of violence now, so we know he's capable of being a violent individual. Let's go back to the problems with the investigation. Okay. If you say that the person may have used a suppressor. Well, we. We know this to be fact. You have to be issued a stamp by the at. You have to purchase the stamp. It's A long, drawn out process, and you have to keep that. It's basically a license that you can have a silencer. And at any time, the ATF can knock on the colonel's door and say, all right, we want to see your. Your stamp that was issued for your silencer, your suppressor, and we want to see the suppressor that matches that stamp, the serial number. So that would be something that you could check. Right? You got three people at the scene. You could check if any of them have been issued a stamp for suppressed. It's rare to get one. It's difficult to get one. Most people don't have them. That doesn't seem to have been done. There's no indication that they searched either vehicle. There's people that close to the investigation say that they believe that you would have found a gun on the roofer. They're not saying, look, the roofer is the murderer. They're saying these are things that should have been done. And frankly, look, you said if maybe he had the radio cranked up and that would make some sense. Yeah, but look, if he didn't. And of course, windows rolled up, what have you. It was a warm day. I. Who knows if his windows were rolled up or not. But look, it's been reported that the park bench was 75 to maybe 80ft from the gravel lot.

[Captain]

Right.

[Narrator]

75Ft to 75 to 80ft from the gravel lot. Just as an exercise, just for. For my own amusement, I decided to. To walk in time, how long it would take me to walk 75 to 80ft. So for me to walk 80ft, originally, I had wrote down and guessed it would take me 30 seconds, conservatively.

[Captain]

Right.

[Narrator]

Actually, once I timed it, I did it three times, and I got times of 22 seconds, 23 seconds, 25 seconds. Seconds.

[Captain]

But were you doing the type of walk where you put your feet really close together and you scrunch your butt cheeks together?

[Narrator]

Yes, because that's how I assume the murderer approached the victims. Now, I. I did it in a manner much like we saw in the Liz Barraza Nest cam footage. The perpetrator of that murder. Where the. Where we don't know who the perpetrator was. But as I said in that episode, Liz Barraza, still unsolved, Texas, the killer appears to be walking very purposefully up to the victim before shooting her. And in a weird way, that case shares some similarities to the case we're discussing today.

[Captain]

Yeah, very much so.

[Narrator]

When I time those walks, 22 seconds, 23 seconds and 25 seconds, okay, so you mean to tell me that you are saying on a national streaming program, Unsolved Mysteries, that you can confirm that he didn't kill them because he was doing what he said he was doing, which was working on a laptop? The distance traveled, it's conceivable that he walked up, approached them, shot them, and returned to his truck in less than 2 minutes time. Unless you can prove that he's jiggling a mouse. Jiggling a mouse for every second that he's there. You can't eliminate him based off of that because there's such little time it would have taken him to shoot these people. People.

[Captain]

Well, also, it. It's possible that he gets in his truck to leave and sees these kayakers park and then thinks, well, I can't leave now.

[Narrator]

And especially because his truck would have been what we would consider here at the garage to be identifiable. Not that. Maybe not that one particular. But he's a roofer, right? So he's going to have. He's going to have things related to the work on this truck. He's going to have likely ladders. I don't know a roofer that doesn't carry ladders on their vehicle. There could be signage like you're saying, on. On this vehicle. Maybe he. He had got back to the vehicle and realized, oh, I'm kind of. I'm kind of stuck here now for a second or two. If I flee, maybe I look more guilty than if I just sit here.

[Captain]

And you think the FBI would be able to look into his history, or look into maybe not his history, but look into Kate's history on the. The Tinder app and see if there was any connection. Because then you go, is that just happenstance that a guy that she made contact with happened to be at the crime scene?

[Narrator]

No. See, I think that's the other reason why some of the people in the public dismissed this guy. Okay. Because when we see the Unsolved Mysteries episode, there's clearly cell phone information from both victims that is relayed in that episode. Right? That's where we get a lot of these timestamps from. Well, in fact, all the time stamps from their cell phones. So I think that people then make the assumption that they know everything about Kate's cell phone and who she was talking to. But go back to the article that comes out two days after the Unsolved Mysteries episode where. Two days after the Unsolved Mysteries episode, where we have the Cleveland scene article that comes out that says, no, there's. They don't know everything about they being law enforcement. Kate's phone. We can put this together based off of that article. Alex Zubin, Kate's younger sister, says she knew intimate details of Kate's life, but when she made suggestions to investigators, they were ignored or postponed. Quote, when we suggested other ways to get the information from Kate's phone for evidence, they refused, said Zubin. When we suggested other ways to get the information from Kate's phone, this is telling us that at some point law enforcement told the victim's family, we are not able to access a lot of stuff or some stuff on her phone.

[Captain]

Doesn't make sense. Unless. Unless they have. Unless they have some reason to hold back this information and they don't want to give it this information to the family.

[Narrator]

Persons close to the investigation and at least one person in law enforcement close to the investigation has told True Crime Garage that they have not been able to successfully unlock Kate's phone. So all of the information that we reviewed regarding her cell phone is information that they could pull with a subpoena from her cell phone provider. What time a text was sent, what was said in a text, and right. What time calls were made and who the calls were made to or who calls were received from. There's nothing in there saying with her Tinder information or other apps and applications information that they could probably pull from her phone. And furthermore, like. So, okay, a couple theories that we discussed in 660 and. And that have been openly discussed in this case regularly is were the two followed? That seemed to me to be the most likely scenario when we first covered this case. But now, after watching Unsolved Mysteries, we have that dash cam footage that would seem to suggest that, no, they weren't followed because police would be actively hunting down those vehicles with license plates and such and vehicle descriptions. And again, we go back to how few vehicles were in the gravel lot in the very short, finite window of time that we have. I was so angry that they didn't use geofencing because it would have been so easy at the time if they were followed to see what cell phone pulled into the lot. After one or both of the victims walk to the general area where both victims were, Kate's phone shoots them and then leaves the scene before police arrive. That. That would be your suspect. That's what I was shouting from the mountaintops then. But that investigative tool only works if you have somebody that is not putting themselves at the crime scene. Geofencing doesn't work very well if the person that committed this crime was there and says and is fine with police knowing that they were there at the time of the murders.

[Captain]

But again, maybe that's because he had to change his plan because the kayaker showed up.

[Narrator]

Yeah, we know one individual was there. Like police said, this is their words, not ours, before, during and after the murders. And then I also wonder too, Captain, I said at the beginning it takes a village and maybe it's going to take a village to solve this. But this case needs to be solved for a million reasons. But I question if the Metro Parks Police and the FBI, how united are they in working together, sharing information? Is this a battle to see who can solve this case? Because you ain't going to solve it by yourselves. I have very little confidence in the Metro Parks Police Department solving this case. And Metro Parks Police, you have more, a more vested interest in this case being solved than the FBI, frankly, just because it's your jurisdiction. And here's the deal. This individual that you don't know everything about and that you let leave your crime scene and you didn't properly vet, he relocated to St. Louis. The FBI has an office in Cleveland. The FBI, their jurisdiction is on the federal level, not the Cleveland Metro Parks level.

[Captain]

Right.

[Narrator]

Of course. They have a field office. They have an FBI office in St. Louis. You guys got to work together and vet this guy, investigate this guy properly and the investigation and so many other aspects of this investigation. Because I think it's been, it appears from our angle where we sit that this has been somewhat poorly handled and that there were things that were that could have been done that were not done. And we've. I go to this a lot because it's so true. It's something that the great late, great JFK said that is so true. An error only becomes a mistake once you refuse to correct it. There's still plenty of time to get justice for these two lovely people that were killed on a park bench on a Tuesday. There's still time to get justice for their families. Anyone with information or tips about the unsolved double homicide should call the FBI Cleveland Field Office at 216-622-6842 or call Crime Stoppers of Cuyahoga county at 216-252-7463. You can also submit a tip at tips.FBI.gov and there may be a $100,000 reward for information that leads to an arrest and conviction.

[Captain]

All right. Want to thank you so much for joining us here in the garage each and every week. Thanks for telling your friends. Thanks for sharing these cases on social media and putting pressure on law enforcement to do their job to serve, protect and solve these crimes. Colonel, do we have any recommended reading for the beautiful listeners?

[Narrator]

Thank you, Captain. If the beautiful listeners out there heard if they had the opportunity to listen to last week's show, the Pendleton quadruple homicide story, you already know that. For the month of February, we are honoring Ohio murder victim Sierra Jogan. On July 19, 2016, Sierra went for a bicycle ride in rural northwest Ohio. Sierra was kidnapped less than 500ft from her home and it was later learned that she had been murdered by a previously convicted violent offender. A very dangerous man, his name is James Worley, killed Sierra Jogan. We are attempting to support an organization called Keep Our Girl Safe. Keeping Our Girl Safe is a grassroots organization created by Sierra's longtime boyfriend Josh's family to honor Sierra's legacy. Keeping Our Girls Safe advocates, educates, empowers and engages against violence towards women. They offer free survival classes focused on women's safety, mainly to high schools in northwest Ohio. For the month of February. True Crime Garage has committed all beer fund donations will go to Keeping Our Girls Safe, a non profit organization. And as a thank you for your help in this effort, we will choose three beer fund contributors at random and mail each of them a Keep Our Girl Safe safety pack which includes door alarm and window alarm, seat belt cutter, window breaker for your car, self defense keychain, flashlight and a self defense tip card. And I will also throw in a signed copy of my book the Delphi Murders the Quest to Find the Man on the Bridge. If you want to donate to the beer fund, we thank you in advance. You can go to truecrimegarage.com click on the pint glass and if you need more information or want more information about keeping our girls safe, you can find that@k o g s.com and for everything.

[Captain]

True crime, check out truecrimegarage.com until next week.

[Narrator]

Be good, be kind and don't litter.