Robert Pickton /// Part 2 /// 769

Summary

---

True Crime Garage

Robert Pickton /// Part 2 /// Episode 769

Release Date: June 26, 2024
Hosts: Nic & The Captain

---

Episode Overview

Part 2 of Nic and The Captain’s deep dive into the case of Canadian serial killer Robert Pickton explores the grisly murders, the complex investigation, failures of law enforcement, the trial and its aftermath, and the tragic stories of Pickton’s victims. With their trademark blend of detailed research, banter, and a critical eye, the hosts break down how Pickton was able to elude justice for so long, what investigators found on his infamous pig farm, and the enduring questions that still haunt this case.

---

Key Discussion Points

1. Pickton’s Methods and Inside Accounts

• Murder Techniques: Pickton killed at least some victims by shooting them with a .22 caliber rifle, but investigators uncovered talk of more insidious methods. His associate Scott Chubb relayed Pickton’s claim that “a good way to kill a female heroin addict was to, quote, inject her with windshield washer fluid,” as it would look like an accidental overdose. Syringes were found on Pickton’s property, though he himself wasn’t a drug user.
  • [03:22] Nic: “He told [Scott Chubb] a good way to kill a female heroin addict was to ‘inject her with windshield washer fluid’... the police would assume she had simply OD’d.”
• Luring Victims: Another associate, Andrew Bellwood, described Pickton as matter-of-factly talking about handcuffing and strangling women after sex. Bellwood “kind of believed that he might have been doing this for quite some time.”
  • [04:57] Nic: “Robert would casually talk about luring prostitutes to the farm … sometimes kill them by handcuffing and strangling them.”

2. The Picton Family and Farm Background

• Family Life: Born in 1949, Robert Pickton grew up working on a pig and cattle farm with his siblings; their parents allegedly prioritized the farm over their own children’s welfare, leading to neglect and hardship.
  • [08:00] The Captain: “Luis and Leonard were more concerned about the welfare of the farm than … their children.”
• Downfall: After their parents’ deaths and financial troubles, the siblings sold land for millions, funded wild parties, and let the property decay into a dump, while Pickton continued slaughtering pigs and disposing of animal waste (and potentially victims’) at a rendering plant.
  • [11:33] Nic: “The sale of this land allowed the siblings to start to dabble in sex, drugs, and partying, eventually forming the Piggy Palace Good Times Society… As many as a thousand people at a time.”

3. When Did the Murders Begin?

• Attempted Murder in 1997: The earliest provable attack was the 1997 attempted murder of Wendy Lynn Eistetter/Easter, who survived after stabbing Pickton and escaping. Charges were dropped when the story became complicated, but the hosts agree she was lucky to survive and Pickton likely intended to kill her.
  • [13:05–17:05] Nic: “She stabs him with this knife and eventually… managed to stab Pickton in the throat… She slid out from underneath him, ran outside… 911 is called… The short of it here… he’s charged and later the charges are dropped... She got lucky. She had a moment and she seized that moment.”

4. The Investigation: Evidence and Delays

• Massive Search Effort: The slow, exhaustive search of Pickton’s property took 22 months and yielded over 3,000 pieces of evidence and DNA from 33 missing women, along with thousands of crime scene photos and exhibits.
  • [05:35] Nic: “It took detectives 22 months… more than 3,000 pieces of evidence from the farm.”
• Law Enforcement Failures: Multiple tips, police reports, and insider warnings (including those from Detective Kim Rossmo) were ignored for years, allowing Pickton to keep killing.
  • [41:37] Nic: “The initiation and conduct of the missing and murdered women investigations were a blatant failure… marked by a deep bias against the poor, often drug addicted victims.”

5. The Trials, Sentencing, and Outrage

• Trial Split and Conviction: Initially charged with 27 counts of first-degree murder (including a Jane Doe), Pickton eventually faced trial for six “slam dunk” cases. DNA evidence existed for 33 women, but the court split the charges, convicting Pickton on six counts of second-degree murder.
  • [21:13] Nic: “The Crown’s key witness was that Lynn Ellingson… she saw Pickton skinning a woman in his barn. We also get the woman from the 1997 attack… DNA from 33 missing women was found on that farm.”
• Sentence: Life imprisonment, no possibility of parole for 25 years. Twenty other murder charges were stayed; authorities claimed it was to spare families the pain of another trial, but many family members disagreed and wanted further charges.
  • [23:13] Nick: “He’s convicted on all six counts, but it’s six counts of second degree murder. So this is in December of 2007. 20 other charges… were stayed in 2010.”
  • [25:40] Nick: “When you have those same families later coming out and saying… ‘we wanted him to be charged…’ I think they owe it to the citizens…”

6. Who Knew? Guilt Beyond Pickton

• Accomplices and Enablers: Multiple people allegedly knew, suspected, or participated in the scenario—several were arrested, but none (including his brother David) were ever charged or convicted.
  • [29:37] Nic: “Three other people besides Pickton were arrested in connection with these deaths… as far as we know, I’ve never heard any report of anybody else going to trial for this.”
• Cell Confession: In jail, Pickton told an undercover officer he’d killed 49 women, bragging that he wished he hadn’t “got so sloppy.”
  • [31:22-31:57] The Captain & Nic: “He had killed 49 and that he would have got to the 50th murder had he just not gotten so sloppy at the end.”

7. Humanizing the Victims

• The hosts read out brief bios of the six identified victims for whom Pickton was convicted, highlighting their difficult backgrounds, hopes, activism, families, and dreams cut short. They stress the need to see victims as people, not stereotypes.
  • [34:38] Nic: “They didn’t all end up… going, ‘this is where I’m going to live’… No, they ended up there against their best wishes…”
  • [35:26] The Captain: “…if they end up murdered, they don’t have any chance for a comeback story.”

8. Final Tallies and Pickton’s Death

• Despite being convicted of only six murders, DNA of 33 women was found, and the true toll could be as high as 69. The full truth will likely never be known due to Pickton’s evasions and death.
  • [42:43] Nic: “The DNA of 33 missing women was found on Pickton’s farm… [In jail] Pickton confessed… he had killed 49 women. He said he idolized Gary Ridgeway and wanted to commit one more murder than Gary...”
• Pickton’s Death (May 19, 2024): Recently, while in maximum security custody, Pickton (age 74) was attacked and fatally wounded by another inmate wielding a broken broom handle. Families of victims expressed relief at the news.
  • [43:36] Nic: “On May 19th of this year, Robert Pickton’s luck ran out for good… [he] was attacked by another inmate… and later died on the last day of last month. May he burn in hell.”

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [06:07] The Captain: “When you have a maniac like this, and like I said, I think he’s a Buffalo Bill meets Dahmer meets Ed Gein. You wonder, is it the chicken or the egg?”
• [21:41] Nic: “They painted Pickton as intelligent and cunning, undercutting perceptions of him as dimwitted… as a dimwitted pig farmer.”
• [24:11] The Captain: “Well, look, I always get frustrated at law enforcement when they don’t actually bring the charges to trial, but in this case, I will differ on that because we know that this guy is a serial killer.”
• [28:11] The Captain: “Yeah, he was hunting. This is premeditated first-degree murder.”
• [31:57] The Captain: “Yeah, this guy was a Doucheburger with fries.”
• [41:37] Nic: “[The investigations] were a blatant failure. The investigations suffered from a lack of leadership... and were marked by a deep bias against the poor, often drug addicted victims.”
• [43:44] Nic: “On May 19th… Robert Pickton’s luck ran out for good… [he] was attacked by another inmate… and later died… May he burn in hell.”

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |----------------|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:47 | Start of content: Pickton’s charges, methods, and who “knew” | | 04:57 | How Pickton lured and killed victims (testimonies from associates) | | 05:35 | Investigation timeline—search, size, and evidence detected | | 08:00 | The Picton family, upbringing, and neglect | | 10:37 | The property’s decline, post-parents, and the origins of "Piggy Palace" parties | | 12:35 | When did the murders start? Signs and the first known survivor | | 13:05 | Detailed account: the 1997 attempted murder and survivor’s escape | | 21:13 | The trial: charges split, evidence, and ultimate verdict | | 23:15 | Sentencing confusion and outrage among victims’ families | | 25:38 | Discussion: should families have been “spared” further trials? | | 31:22-31:57 | Pickton’s jail confession to killing 49 women | | 34:38–36:00 | Humanizing the victims: brief stories and their lost opportunities | | 41:37–42:43 | Commission report on police failures, ignored warnings, and systemic indifference | | 42:43–44:46 | Pickton’s death in prison: his fate at the hands of another inmate and family reactions |

---

Tone and Language

Maintaining their conversational, critical, and sometimes irreverent tone, Nic & The Captain blend in dark humor and emotional sincerity—particularly when honoring the victims and discussing systemic failures. The episode is thoughtful, but blunt and direct about the horror of Pickton’s crimes and the institutional oversights that let him continue.

---

Final Reflection

This episode of True Crime Garage not only unpacks the details of Robert Pickton’s crimes, but also shines a light on law enforcement’s bias and failures, the ignored pleas of those working to protect vulnerable women, and the importance of humanizing victims. The episode closes with the news of Pickton’s recent death, leaving listeners to reflect on the unresolved questions and enduring pain left behind.

---

Transcript

[Oregon Lottery Announcer]

Oregon parks make an Oregon summer. But what makes an Oregon park well, Oregon Lottery gameplay helps no matter the game Megabucks, video lottery or keno funds from lottery games help support parks projects across the state, ensuring they stay safe, accessible and open for all. In fact, Discover State park scratches are in stores now. It's the perfect way to put a little bit of Oregon's parks in your pocket. The Oregon Lottery. Together we do good things. Must be 18 or older to play. Lottery games are based on chance and should be played for entertainment only.

[USAA Insurance Advertiser]

If you, your parent or spouse served in the military, you could join our family. Our members saved an average of $70 a month on auto insurance when they switched. Tap the banner or visit usaa.com join today to check your eligibility restrictions.

[Nick (True Crime Garage Host)]

Welcome to True Crime Garage, wherever you are, whatever you're doing. Thanks for listening. I'm your host, Nick. And with me, as always, is a man with a reminder that it's not too late for an Alex P. Keaton presidential campaign. Here is the cap.

[The Captain (Co-host of True Crime Garage)]

Yeah. Coming in all the way from Columbus, Ohio. It's good to be seen and good to see you. Thanks for listening. Thanks for telling a friend

[Nick (True Crime Garage Host)]

today. We still have some of this awesome beer from the folks at Rogue Brewing. We are drinking Bat Squatch. It's a hazy IPA, very juicy, so it goes down smooth. And the ABV is still solid at 6.7% garage grade 5 out of 5 bottle caps. And here's a cheers to some of our friends that are the tops as well. First up, a shout out to Madeline in Turlock, California.

[The Captain (Co-host of True Crime Garage)]

The big we like your jib goes out to Sean from Tampa, Florida.

[Nick (True Crime Garage Host)]

Next up, here's a cheers to Rose S. From San Francisco. And last but certainly not least, a big Ron Swanson, please and thank you goes out to Nick Hiller from Irwin, Pennsylvania. Everyone we just mentioned, they helped us fill up the old garage fridge for this week's set of shows. And for that, we thank you.

[The Captain (Co-host of True Crime Garage)]

Yeah, BWR you in beer run. Go to our website, true crimegarage.com and make sure you sign up on that mailing list. And that's enough of the business.

[Nick (True Crime Garage Host)]

All right, everybody gather around. Grab a chair, grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime. Eventually, Robert Picton was charged with the murder of 27 women. How were these women killed? Investigators were able to determine that at least some of them were shot with a.22 caliber rifle. But more details emerged as police interviewed people who had connections to Pickton. These interviews turned up a disturbing number of people who seem to be in the know about some of the goings on on this farm. But apparently they never thought to report any of it or were too worried about getting in trouble for the minor offenses that they were committing themselves. One example, Picked, his friend and employee Scott Chubb, said that Pickton had told him a good way to kill a female heroin addict was to, quote, inject her with windshield washer fluid. End quote. The method of murder would never be detected with all her track marks, and police would assume that she had simply OD'd. Remember, they found syringes on the property, including syringes found in his trailer, his personal trailer that he lived in. And Picked him did not. He was not a drug user.

[The Captain (Co-host of True Crime Garage)]

But he also said that he was offered payment to bring her back to the farm.

[Nick (True Crime Garage Host)]

Well, payment to bring back Lynn Ellingson to the farm. Remember, she's the one that it's believed may have been blackmailing Pickton. The person who saw the woman hanging from the meat hook in the slaughterhouse.

[The Captain (Co-host of True Crime Garage)]

Right.

[Nick (True Crime Garage Host)]

Who refused to give information to the police. If this guy has no problem killing people, he's going to have no problem killing the woman who's blackmailing him.

[The Captain (Co-host of True Crime Garage)]

Absolutely.

[Nick (True Crime Garage Host)]

So we can presume presumably Picked in had planned to kill her. Now, Chubb never brought Lynn Ellingson back to the farm for Pickton to kill her. Then we also had. Another example would be Andrew Bellwood, who was an associate of Robert Pickton's, who said that Robert would casually talk about luring prostitutes to the farm with their drug of choice. He said that he would have sex with them and sometimes kill them by handcuffing and strangling them. And Bellwood said that Pickton discussed this in such an offhand manner that he kind of believed that he might have been doing this for quite some time.

[The Captain (Co-host of True Crime Garage)]

Well, it makes sense that he was doing it for quite some time because we know he had many victims.

[Nick (True Crime Garage Host)]

Of course, after the charges, he's charged with 27 murders. Robert Pickton proclaiming his innocence on all charges. He was scheduled for trial in November of 2002. This date would get delayed time and time again. A large part of this, though, is because of the search that we talked about. Remember, it took detectives 22 months to complete their search of this large Picton farm. In the end, the painstakingly exhaustive search and seizure collected more than 3,000 pieces of evidence from the farm.

[The Captain (Co-host of True Crime Garage)]

Well, when you have a maniac like this, and like I said, I think he's a Buffalo Bill meets Dahmer meets Ed Gein. You wonder, is it the chicken or the egg?

[Nick (True Crime Garage Host)]

Well, if you're asking who is Robert Pickton and what is his background? He was born in October of 1949. His parents were Luis and Leonard Pickton. The family moved to the farm in 1963. It was a fully operational farm for a long time. And Robert, his brother David and his sister Linda, they were expected as children to work the farm as well as earning money for the family. Picked and dropped out of school where he was known as a quiet individual. He did was partaking in special education classes. He got a job as a meat cutter. So expected to work the farm, but also expected to earn money for the family in other jobs that the children may have had. So once he gets his job as a meat cutter, he decides, I'm going to drop out of school. The family's main source of income was from raising and butchering hogs and cattle. And at one time it's recorded that as many as 700 pigs and 120 cows were on the farm. But the nature of this environment, Captain, is you have someone, but not just Robert. You have his sister and brother as well. They are used to being around death a lot. Right. They're running this successful slaughterhouse business where they're raising all of these animals and then eventually selling them to provide for the family, to provide an income and to continue to fuel the farm.

[The Captain (Co-host of True Crime Garage)]

Well, and that's, I think, the problem. I think Luis and Leonard were more concerned about the welfare of the farm than there were their children. I mean, we have all these reports that they would send them to school and unwash dirty clothes and what's that going to smell like? I mean, if you've been on a farm, you know what parts of the farm smell like. And so they would be bullied and people would call them names in school. And it just seems like the whole family was working towards this idea of the, the farm needs to be successful. We, we nurture the farm. We don't really care so much about nurturing our children.

[Nick (True Crime Garage Host)]

Yeah, there's, I mean, there's two sides, I guess, to that story. Maybe the, the true answers lies somewhere in between. But, you know, it's said that the mom would not allow the kids to bathe maybe as much as necessary. And as you pointed out earlier, the being surrounded by dead animals, blood, manure, these individuals are going to smell terrible. There's plenty of other persons who say that, no, Robert Pickton just refused to bathe and refused to wash. And even after his parents passed away, that's the lifestyle he maintained well after they were dead and gone. Then times got tough for the family. Times got real hard when Robert Pickton's father, Leonard, passed away in 1977. The barns, some of the barns burned to the ground in 1978. And then his mother died of cancer in 79, trying to contribute to the family's income. His brother David Pickton then started the DNS bulldozing company that we had already mentioned and the top soil business. Around this time, Robert Pickton lived on and worked the farm, raising and eventually butchering the animals and selling the meat, picked and rebuilt the barns that had burned down and tried to keep the family business going. But it was David's businesses that took over more and more of the farmland, and his abandoned vehicles and excavation and demolition debris turned the property into a filthy dump site cluttered with old junk and garbage. Pickton eventually gave up on commercial hog and cattle farming in 1980, but continued to raise hogs for friends and family, working by day as a dump truck driver for his brother.

[The Captain (Co-host of True Crime Garage)]

Yeah, and once you give up your dream and start working for your brother, you're. Your life is over.

[Nick (True Crime Garage Host)]

People who knew the Pictons at the time were familiar with the family's property on which David, Robert and a niece. So this would be David's child, were living. But remember, at some point we have a constant stream of people coming and going at all hours. This would be workers, friends, associates and random acquaintances. In the mid-1990s, the Pickton siblings decided to cash in on part of their parents property that was left to them. And they sold off a large chunk of the land for housing, a park and a school. I don't. Forgive me, Captain, I don't have the information in front of me as to how much land that they sold, but they pocketed roughly 5 million Canadian dollars for the sale of this land.

[The Captain (Co-host of True Crime Garage)]

Not a bad payday.

[Nick (True Crime Garage Host)]

Correct. And it is the sale of this land that allowed the siblings to start to dabble in sex, drugs and partying, eventually forming the Piggy Palace Good Times Society and hosting those raves that some say were attended by a thousand people at a time. As many as a thousand people at a time. Most reports, however, indicate that Robert Pickton didn't drink or do drugs, despite what was going on on their property. But grotesquely, he did keep up with the hog butchering, regularly providing meat to friends and family. About twice a week, Pickton would dump six barrels of animal parts and bodily fluids, each holding up to 300 pounds of raw waste at the Vancouver Rendering Plant. Remember when he was being surveilled? That's one of the places he went to. He was known there as the Pigman. Of course, we now know what was likely in some of those barrels on some of those dump occasions.

[The Captain (Co-host of True Crime Garage)]

But we know that Robert Piketon is. He's a maniac. He's a sicko. But I guess the question then becomes, when did the killing start?

[Nick (True Crime Garage Host)]

Well, I think we can go back to. He was charged with attempted murder in 1997. This is by a situation where there's one who got away. I assume he was already killing by this time frame.

[The Captain (Co-host of True Crime Garage)]

That would make sense.

[Nick (True Crime Garage Host)]

And on top of that, we could go to the list of. Without getting too far ahead of ourselves, that answer is. Is difficult to deliver here. But let's go to that 97 attempted murder charge. So this takes place in March when Robert Pickton picked up a woman named Wendy Lynn Esteter Easter. I'm going to say it both ways because I do not know how to pronounce her last name. I apologize to Wendy Lynn. He picks her up from the low track, brings her back to his trailer on the farm. And she would later tell we know police are involved because he's charged. She would later tell investigators that she was hitchhiking on her way to the Princeton Hotel. This is at approximately just before midnight. She says Robert Pickton picked her up in a red pickup truck, offers her $100 for a blowjob. She agrees to this arrangement, but he says that it has to take place at his residence. She was not thrilled about his request to go all the way out to what she referred to as the suburbs, but must have needed the money because eventually she agrees to go. She says that Picked then promised to bring her back to that location no later than 2am so they drive to his farm. She thinks that he was taking a roundabout route, a much longer way to get there than necessary. When they arrive on the farm, he gets out to open up the gate, drives in and then locks the gate behind them. Like there's some indicators here that something isn't right. This isn't going to go down as they had agreed. Eventually this leads to an altercation inside his trailer where she says he attempted to kill her, but in the process she managed to get away. And in fact, she stabs him with a knife that she pulled from his kitchen. But this wasn't like in one of those blocks or anything. This is just setting out on the counter like. Like ready for use. She stabs him with this knife and eventually Ms. Eastetter managed to stab Pickton in the throat, causing an 8 inch gash. At some point, though, Pickton gets the knife away from her. He stabs her in the abdomen. Oh, God, she says, he put the knife in me and then he lifted it up.

[Oregon Lottery Announcer]

Up.

[The Captain (Co-host of True Crime Garage)]

Sky's a piece of shit.

[Nick (True Crime Garage Host)]

Once she was stabbed, she thought that she was done, she was going to die right then and there. Then all of a sudden, she felt him go limp. So his injury causes him to go limp. She got the knife back, grabbing it. At this point, they're both too weak to really do anything. She told the investigators that she slid out from underneath him, ran outside around the truck, and then just kept running. She climbed the fence to get out. She flagged down a car that was driving by and begged the driver and the companion in the vehicle to take her to the hospital. So the couple helped her out. They let her into the car. 911 is called. On the way to the hospital. They flagged down a sergeant, a police officer. This police officer is responding to the scene as well. She tells this story to the police. They charge him with attempted murder. He's got a whole different version of this story. His version is, no, I took her to. Yeah, we had this arrangement. I took her to my house. And then she starts freaking out immediately, right? She attacks me. I was just defending myself. The short of it here, Captain, this is a rather long story, but the short of it is he's charged and later the charges are dropped. It never. It never gets to court to the point of him having to face these charges. And it's. It's a complicated situation. So I don't want to just simply say this is where everybody dropped the ball and we could have stopped the murders here, but this is one of the people that got away, thankfully. I'm very confident saying that he was killing before this attack on this woman. I'm very confident saying he intended to kill this woman. She got lucky. She got lucky. She had a moment and she seized that moment.

[The Captain (Co-host of True Crime Garage)]

Yeah, the moment he went limp and

[Nick (True Crime Garage Host)]

got away from this monster. Unfortunately, he wasn't shut down and locked up then.

[Oregon Lottery Announcer]

Oregon parks make an Oregon summer. But what makes an Oregon park? Well, Oregon lottery Gameplay helps. No matter the game megabucks, video lottery or keno, funds from lottery games help support parks projects across the state, ensuring they stay safe, accessible, and open for all. In fact, discover state park scratches are in stores now. It's the perfect way to put a little bit of Oregon's parks in your pocket. The Oregon lottery Together we do good things. Must be 18 or older to play lottery. Games are based on chance and should be played for entertainment only.

[The Captain (Co-host of True Crime Garage)]

Audiences everywhere are calling Evil Dead Burn a gift to horror cinema.

[USAA Insurance Advertiser]

The whole family can be reunited. We found you.

[The Captain (Co-host of True Crime Garage)]

It's relentlessly savage and absolutely terrifying.

[Nick (True Crime Garage Host)]

Can you look under the bed?

[The Captain (Co-host of True Crime Garage)]

It's a non stop mom. Heart pounding.

[Nick (True Crime Garage Host)]

You are my deadpan dawn thrill ride

[The Captain (Co-host of True Crime Garage)]

with moments that will be seared in your memory forever.

[USAA Insurance Advertiser]

I was your first.

[Nick (True Crime Garage Host)]

I'll make sure I'm your last.

[The Captain (Co-host of True Crime Garage)]

Dead Burn Only in theaters Friday. Rated R. Under 17 not admitted without

[USAA Insurance Advertiser]

parent On Deck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, Ondeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five star trust pilot reviews, Ondeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in [e-mail] depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by Ondeck or Celtic Bank. Ondeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans an amount subject to lender approval.

[Ryan Reynolds (Mint Mobile Advertiser)]

Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile.

[Nick (True Crime Garage Host)]

Now, I was looking for fun ways

[Ryan Reynolds (Mint Mobile Advertiser)]

to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills, but it

[Nick (True Crime Garage Host)]

turns out that's very illegal.

[Ryan Reynolds (Mint Mobile Advertiser)]

So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment

[USAA Insurance Advertiser]

of $45 for three months, $90 for six months, or $180 for a 12 month plan. Required $15 per month. Equivalent taxes and fees. Extra initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes. Me slow when network.

[The Captain (Co-host of True Crime Garage)]

All right, we are back. The captain will not be eating any pork products for quite some time. Cheers to everybody.

[Nick (True Crime Garage Host)]

No. Once again, one bad apple spoils the whole damn bunch. Robert Pickton was initially brought to trial on 27 counts of first degree murder. Now, one of those cases, Captain, was for a Jane Doe. This was going to be the first one that would be dismissed. And it's dismissed because of insufficient evidence. They don't even know who the victim is. In that case, then the judge. This is Justice Williams, ruled in 2006 that the trial had to be split because trying all 26 charges of murder at once would take too long and place an unreasonable burden on the jury. I can agree with that. So Pickton was brought up in the initial trial on the six most slam dunk murder Charges. These are the ones that we think,

[The Captain (Co-host of True Crime Garage)]

well, like we say, if there's no body, it's hard to prove that there's a crime. But in these other cases there's bodies so we can prove there's a crime.

[Nick (True Crime Garage Host)]

These are the ones that we think we're going to get a conviction on. He pled not guilty. This trial lasted for more than a year.

[The Captain (Co-host of True Crime Garage)]

Wow.

[Nick (True Crime Garage Host)]

And it included nearly 130 witnesses and could be the subject of an entire podcast series itself. They painted Pickton as intelligent and cunning, undercutting perceptions of him as dimwitted dumbass. As a dimwitted pig farmer.

[The Captain (Co-host of True Crime Garage)]

Yeah.

[Nick (True Crime Garage Host)]

The Crown's key witness was that Lynn Ellingson that we've talked about. This is the woman who testified to the dead woman that she saw picked in skinning in his barn. We also get the woman from the 1997 attack, the one that he should have been locked up for. She testified as to what Pickton had done to her in 1997. With, with these killers that, that seemed to be able to kill for an extended period of time and have a long list of victims. One thing that we stress, there's always someone who seems to have gotten away. And for law enforcement, it's one of those. It's, you just say please, no matter how hard it is, try to find and identify the person who got away. They may not even really truly realize that they got away from a serial killer. Now, in addition to all of this, the Crown had evidence on its side. Of course we have DNA of 33 missing women that were found on the farm. DNA from 33 missing women was found on that farm. So it's, it isn't known. I do not know why he was never charged for 33 murders. It was 27, then reduced to 26. And then the judge split the trial to focus in on six cases, but he's found guilty.

[The Captain (Co-host of True Crime Garage)]

So what is the sentence?

[Nick (True Crime Garage Host)]

Well, there's overwhelming amount of evidence against him indicating that Robert Pickton was guilty of sin, especially in these six cases. He's convicted on all six counts, but it's six counts of second degree murder. So this is in December of 2007. 20 other charges of first degree murder were stayed in 2010 by the judge. This is awfully complicated. There's a lot of moving parts and pieces here. So I'll try to sum it up the best that the colonel can. So after the conviction of the six murders, prosecutors had sufficient evidence to charge Pickton with the additional 20 killings. But they decided not to proceed because he's actually already given the maximum sentence that he could receive. They say this is to spare the families and the court system from further effort and expense of another lengthy trial.

[The Captain (Co-host of True Crime Garage)]

Well, look, I always get frustrated at law enforcement when they don't actually bring the charges to trial, but in this case, I will differ on that because we know that this guy is a serial killer. So if we have DNA evidence of one of your family members on that farm and they've never been seen from again or heard from again, just disappeared into thin air, they didn't just disappear. Most likely he murdered them and that's why we have their DNA. Does that make any sense?

[Nick (True Crime Garage Host)]

Of course. Well, I agree with what you're saying. I mean, if you can't punish him further. I get what they're saying, but you can't tell me that you have sufficient evidence to convict this guy on additional murders and then say, well, we want to. We want to spare the families. Let's circle that and underline that part real quick.

[The Captain (Co-host of True Crime Garage)]

That's dumb.

[Nick (True Crime Garage Host)]

And the courts from further expense from another lengthy trial. Well, had law enforcement jumped on this earlier.

[The Captain (Co-host of True Crime Garage)]

Yeah.

[Nick (True Crime Garage Host)]

There you wouldn't have had to spend 22 months collecting evidence from the pig farm. There wouldn't have been as many victims. There wouldn't have been as much evidence.

[The Captain (Co-host of True Crime Garage)]

Basically, what they're saying is we want to spare the taxpayers and the state money to try these cases that we think are slam dunks anyways.

[Nick (True Crime Garage Host)]

Look, nobody should ever want to further victimize victims. If, in fact, you are sparing the families from having to sit through this lengthy trial, that I can agree with. That, that's fine, that's fine. But when you have those same families later coming out and saying, no, we weren't happy with this. We wanted him to be charged and we wanted him to be taken to trial for our loved one's murder. And they're telling us they have sufficient evidence to convict him on that, I think that's. I think they owe it to the citizens that they are sworn to protect and the perpetrators that are. They are sworn to face the consequences.

[The Captain (Co-host of True Crime Garage)]

Yeah.

[Nick (True Crime Garage Host)]

To put it. Put the ball in the court of the victims. You can't say, we don't want to further victimize these people when they're going, no, charge him, take him to trial. So we don't know what conversations took place behind closed doors, but that's how it's reported in the media. That's what these people are saying to the newspapers and to the television cameras. We wanted him to be charged so this is, this is the victims that he was never sent to trial for that are angry. The families, some of those families were quite angry at how this sits today and where it sat after he's convicted. But also you have the families of the victims that he was convicted on that they were angry because it got reduced from first degree murder to second degree murder. It's tough to deduce and to explain and to come to a great conclusion as to whether something is second degree murder or first degree murder. But think of this type. We've talked about this type time and time again on the show. We've talked about this specific type of killer where it's not the sex act, it's not about the sex. No matter how kinky we're talking about, no matter how taboo we're talking about, the women that he's engaging with, the women that he is making these arrangements with are willing. They, they're willing to work out an arrangement. We've seen that time and time again. He's not killing to cover up a crime. He's killing because that's what he likes. That's who he is. Meaning that all of these essentially are first degree murder charges, or should be, because that was his intent when he hopped in his red pickup truck and went looking for a victim.

[The Captain (Co-host of True Crime Garage)]

Yeah, he was hunting. This is premeditated first degree murder.

[Oregon Lottery Announcer]

Yeah.

[The Captain (Co-host of True Crime Garage)]

And on top of that, we have a witness that says, hey, I saw a dead body on Hooks as he's chopping her up as if she was some cattle.

[Nick (True Crime Garage Host)]

It's a shame that that woman wouldn't have stuck to that story when confronted by police months before he was actually arrested. Picton's was the longest case in Canadian history, with thousands of items seized. We have 40,000 crime scene photos, over 100,000 lab exhibits, 98 witnesses for the prosecution and 30 for the defense, and half a million pages of documents. On June 25, 2009, the B.C. court of Appeals upheld Pickton's convictions, picked an appeal to the Supreme Court of Canada, which in July of 2010, unanimously rejected his appeal. The case was over. Now, what about all the people who may or may not have known what Robert Pickton was up to and said nothing? Arguably, they are partially responsible for the continued murders of these poor women. Certainly some people had to have known Pick activities. We do know Lynn Ellingson, who later testified against him, wasn't willing to work with the cops, but later testifies against him. And Andrew Bellwood. I don't know if we can consider them accomplices. But they're. They're considered some form of that, in my opinion. Interestingly, the lead investigator in the case testified that three other people besides Pickton were arrested in connection with these deaths or some of the deaths, but none that we know of were in fact charged with the murders. They may have been arrested, but as far as we know, I've never heard any report of anybody else going to trial for this. We talk so much about Robert Pickton's brother, employer, co resident of the farm, David Pickton. There's plenty of questions about him that still remain. As we've heard, multiple people knew or strongly suspected that Robert Pickton was up to something, did nothing. David Pickton essentially lived on the same property. It's a large property, but lived on the same property with his brother. It's very difficult to say that he didn't have some hint as to what was going on, if not directly involved in the situation.

[The Captain (Co-host of True Crime Garage)]

So a couple things I'm a little confused on. So he gets six counts of second degree murder. He gets life in prison. No possibility of parole for 25 years. But is that charge life imprisonment? Does he get six life sentences? That's what's confusing. And so then we know that there's more victims. We have DNA of 30 some victims. He's convicted of six. He's charged at some point with 27 charges. And then some people say he confessed to 49.

[Nick (True Crime Garage Host)]

Yeah, the way that that story plays out with the confession is that they placed an undercover officer in a cell with him or in a neighboring cell. And I believe, Captain, this was when he was before the trial for the six homicides. And the officer would later state that Robert Pickton had said to him kind of nonchalantly that he had killed 49 and that he would have got to the 50th murder had he just not gotten so sloppy at the end.

[The Captain (Co-host of True Crime Garage)]

Yeah, this guy was a Doucheburger with fries.

[Nick (True Crime Garage Host)]

So, yeah, I. He can. He killed many more women, unfortunately, than the six that he is convicted for.

[The Captain (Co-host of True Crime Garage)]

The.

[Nick (True Crime Garage Host)]

Don't wrap me up and wrangle me into a conversation about the courts in Canada or the consequences. And his sentence, it's complicated for me, and clearly in the last week, didn't have time to dive into Canadian law, but.

[The Captain (Co-host of True Crime Garage)]

Well, how dare you?

[Nick (True Crime Garage Host)]

Well, but there are people in Canada who have committed some very heinous crimes that eventually get released.

[The Captain (Co-host of True Crime Garage)]

Right.

[Ryan Reynolds (Mint Mobile Advertiser)]

And.

[Nick (True Crime Garage Host)]

And I'm not faulting the country or its people. I love Canada and I love. I. I have a hard time thinking of a person from Canada that I have not enjoyed meeting them or their company.

[The Captain (Co-host of True Crime Garage)]

Blame Canada.

[Nick (True Crime Garage Host)]

But.

[The Captain (Co-host of True Crime Garage)]

Blame Canada.

[Nick (True Crime Garage Host)]

But unfortunately, what my eyes and ears tell me is that that country sits in a state where they believe, or at least the way that their, their sentencing and consequences and punishments are carried out, that they believe that many more people are. Possess the ability to be rehabilitated and moved back into society than what I think actually exist, not just in Canada, but on this planet as a whole. Yes, it's, it's sad that, that he wasn't held to greater consequences. But let's shift gears here because I wanted to make sure that we saved some time for this. They certainly saved time for it at the trial. The prosecutors at Pickton's trial took pains to attempt to humanize the victims, obviously hoping that the jury would not see them as just druggies or sex workers. Let's give a shout out to the Toronto City News that did a 2007 expose releasing, writing up profiles of each of the six victims for which picked him was convicted. Sure, they all had their problems, but very few of us are without any. So first up, one of the victims that he was convicted of having killed is Serena Abbott's way. We talked about her inhalers being found and remains being found on the, the farm. She never really had much of a chance at life. That's the thing. Like when people look down upon these other people and when people turn, turn away from what might be happening when

[The Captain (Co-host of True Crime Garage)]

they turn away from the sex workers. Right.

[Nick (True Crime Garage Host)]

Well, sex workers and drug addicts and what have you keep in mind, some of those people ended up at that spot in their lives because they were already victimized by somebody else or victimized by a previous situation. They didn't all end up, they didn't all go skipping down to the low track, going, this is where I'm going to live the rest of my days. No, they ended up there against their best wishes, against the best wishes of their, their family members.

[The Captain (Co-host of True Crime Garage)]

Well, it's tough too because like you said, a lot of these individuals are victims themselves and that's how they end up in this situation. But if they end up murdered, they don't have any chance for a comeback story. They don't have any chance to, to live their life the way they once might have dreamed to live out their hopes and dreams. And that's, that's what sucks.

[Nick (True Crime Garage Host)]

Or to have fun or to love or to be loved or to have meaningful relationships. So Serena abbotsway, she was born with fetal alcohol syndrome in a bad area of town. Both of her biological parents died when she was quite young. Despite her life working the streets, Abbots Way was also an activist for the women that she worked with. And when her colleagues began to disappear, she spoke up at rallies and demanded action by local law enforcement. But unfortunately, she joined the growing list. This was in August of 2001 at the age of 29, and her remains were dug up on the Picton farm. We also have Mona Wilson. She was removed from a First nations reserve in Alberta to find a life that varied from extreme happiness to outright misery. As a young girl, she lived in a treatment center, but was taken out after being found badly beaten in a hallway. She was placed with a foster family for years. That gave her a chance and helped her blossom. That somehow faded as an adult, she was living on her own in Vancouver, turning toward heroin to hide her pain. She disappeared in November of 2001 at the age of 26. Even as she was trying to kick the habit and turn her life around. Mona left in a vehicle and she was never seen again. Angela Jos Berry. She grew up amid the specter of alcoholism, physical abuse and mental illness. So when a boyfriend persuaded her at 16 to move in with him, it seemed like a great escape. It wasn't. Her boyfriend turned out to be a drug dealer who wound up getting her addicted, and she ended up on the streets selling herself to support her habit. She worked for a series of pimps who violently abused her. But her family remembers her as a loving daughter with a big smile and a person who was a wonderful sister. She was quiet and polite. She had a daughter of her own. She was last seen in June of 2001. We also have Brenda Wolf. She was briefly addicted to drugs, but seemed to have turned her life around, Working as a waitress and a bouncer at a local eatery. She kept in regular touch with her young daughter. She had been evicted from her apartment and was living somewhere in the downtown east side, that area that we spoke so much about today and yesterday. She asked for government funds for food, stating that she had spent all of her money on her kids Christmas. Her friends say that she was never a sex worker and in fact worked to defend them if they were attacked in what's being called a street enforcer role. It was because of that identity that so many were surprised to see her named as one of Robert Pickton's victims. She disappeared in February of 1999. We have Georgina Pappin. Both Georgina and her eight siblings were put in foster care early in life, so she never really knew her family. By the time she hit 18, she had been living with dozens of different people and hadn't established roots anywhere. She was said to have an on again, off again addiction to drugs, but always found time to contact her daughter who lived with her grandmother. She was described as charming and outspoken. She did spend some time in prison and she was challenged for the custody of her children at some point. She was last seen in March of 1999 by her cousin who says that she was picked up by Robert Pickton. We have Marnie Frey. She had a much different younger life experience than some of the other persons we just discussed. She had a loving home and a family that supported her. She even attended Christian school. But when Marnie Faye had a daughter at the young age of 18, her life changed. She was lured into the world of drugs through a local gang and finally wound up on the streets of Vancouver. She did always phone home, often multiple times a day. Her last call came on September 4, 1999. From then on, there was only silence. Marnie's remains were among those recovered from the picked in pig farm. In 2010 in response to popular pressure, the government of British Columbia formally announced a missing women Commission of Inquiry to look into why the Vancouver Police department and the RCMP did not until 2002 catch serial killer Robert Pickton when they had received detailed tips as far back as 1998. The Commission issued a comprehensive report in 2012 entitled Forsaken. It ruled that the initiation of conduct of the missing and murdered women investigations were a blatant failure. The investigations suffered from a lack of leadership and and were marked by a deep bias against the poor, often drug addicted victims. Detective Lorimer Shenner's criticism of the VPD was read into the record. The detectives efforts to get to the bottom of the missing women case were called Heroic. Kim Rossmo's warnings of a serial predator had been ignored. The commission heard. The commission's report concluded that the Vancouver Police Department should have issued a warning by August of 1998 that police were investigating a possible serial killer. The report stated, quote, by January 23rd, 1997, Robert Pickton, who would become a top suspect in the missing women investigation was emerging on the police radar. So they look at this in retrospect. They review all the information and realize they're receiving tips about this. You have your personnel, law enforcement personnel that are saying we've conducted our own investigations. We see a problem here. We believe there's a serial predator that is active in this area and here's your victims. Here's your victimology. And even when this guy was on their radar as just a suspect, it seems like there was little effort to push this thing forward to the point of a task force and to really getting to the bottom of the problem and correcting an attempt to stop the problem.

[The Captain (Co-host of True Crime Garage)]

Law enforcement failed to identify that there was a problem, failed to alert the public about this problem, only charged him with some of the crimes. And so unlike his victims, his story continued. And his story continued until this year on May 19th.

[Nick (True Crime Garage Host)]

That's right. All in all, the DNA of 33 missing women was found on Pickton's farm in various freezers, buildings, containers, shallow graves, pig pens and machines. Other unidentified DNA was also found. The reality, the sad reality is investigators just don't know how many women Robert Pickton is actually responsible for killing. Before his trial, investigators placed an undercover officer in Pickton's cell and Picked and confessed to his cellmate that he had killed 49 women. He said that he idolized Gary Ridgeway and wanted to commit one more murder than Gary. To make it an even 50. He said he had made his own grave by becoming sloppy. In 2004, the RCMP stated that the list of missing women could be as high as 69. We will likely never know the identities of all of Robert Pickton's victims. Who knows whether Pickton himself can even recall each one of his slayings. Even more perplexing is the question of why. Since Pickton has never formally confessed to any of the murders other than the jailhouse confession, we will likely never know the answer to this question either. What seems clear though, is that Pickton benefited from the lucky convergence of police incompetence, indifference and inaction. On May 19th of this year, Robert Pickton's luck ran out for good. The 74 year old serial killer was attacked by another inmate. The inmate, Martin Charist, is described as having a history of assaulting other prisoners. It's alleged that Martin speared Pickton in the head with a sharp, pointed, broken broom handle. Pickton was airlifted to a hospital and put on life support and later died on the last day of last month. May he burn in hell.

[CTV News Anchor / Reporter]

Convicted murderer and serial killer Robert Pickton has died now. Pickton had been serving an indeterminate sentence for six counts of second degree murder. He had lured women from Vancouver's downtown Eastside to his pig farm and was charged with killing 26 women. Let's bring in CTV's Andrew Johnson and Andrew set this up for the last we heard, the 74 year old was attacked in a Quebec prison. Now what happened?

[Ryan Reynolds (Mint Mobile Advertiser)]

Well, Sandy, since his conviction, Robert Pickton has been held in a special unit in maximum security prison designed to keep him away from other inmates. So news he was attacked there May 19 came as a surprise. We spoke with the Vancouver sun reporter who first broke that story. She was told another inmate with a history of assaults had been in segregation but was released into Picton's unit. And that's where the serial killer was speared. In the head was something like a broom. Quebec Provincial police say the assault happened around 5:15pm Inside the Port Cartier institution and a 51 year old suspect was incarcerated. Following that attack, Pickton was reportedly airlifted to the hospital in Quebec City where he was on life support before his death. Announced today.

[CTV News Anchor / Reporter]

Now, Andrew, over the years the killer bragged about murdering women. Remind viewers of his crimes.

[Ryan Reynolds (Mint Mobile Advertiser)]

While Sandy Pickton's death shuts the door on the 74 year old, providing any more answers on the other suspected murders at his Port Coquitlam pig farm. He targeted vulnerable women on Vancouver's downtown east side. Many indigenous, many drug users. So many he didn't appear to recognize the photos of them in police interviews. Despite the fact you mentioned Pickton was serving time for six killings. The remains and DNA of 33 women were found during a search of Pickton's farm. The killer had bragged about murdering a total of 49.

[CTV News Anchor / Reporter]

Right. And now we'll never know at this point. You know, I remember over the years seeing the devastated faces of the families. I know that you spoke to some of them recently after word that Pickton had been attacked. What did they tell you at that time?

[Ryan Reynolds (Mint Mobile Advertiser)]

Yeah. The families of Pickton's victims expressed relief. His life moved, may be coming to an end. After he'd been attacked, one parent felt like her prayers had been answered. Another called the man a monster and said she hopes he burns in hell. The actions of this serial killer tearing apart so many lives and now his is over. Corrections Canada says it's contacted the families of Picton's victims to notify all of them of the death. Sandy.

[CTV News Anchor / Reporter]

All right, ctv. Andrew Johnson on the death of Robert Pickton.

[The Captain (Co-host of True Crime Garage)]

I want to thank everybody for joining us here in the garage. Make sure you tell a friend, tell your sister, tell your brother, tell your dad and your mother. Colonel, do we have any recommended reading for the beautiful listeners this week?

[Nick (True Crime Garage Host)]

Captain, we are happy to be recommending she's gone five mysterious 20th century cold cases by Kathleen Brunel featuring never before seen letters and documents, personal interviews and research Alongside captivating storytelling, Brunel delves deep into the lives of those who disappeared and the circumstances surrounding their disappearances. One of the cases in this book is one covered here in the garage. Simone Riddinger. Check out she's gone five mysterious 20th century cold cases by Kathleen Brunel. You can find that great recommendation and many more on our website truecrimegarage.com and until next time, be good, be kind and don't litter.

[The Captain (Co-host of True Crime Garage)]

Sa.

[USAA Insurance Advertiser]

Ondeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team or bridging cash flow gaps, Ondeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five star Trust pilot reviews, Ondeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in [e-mail] depending on certain loan attributes. Your business loan may be issued by Ondeck or Celtic Bank. Ondeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans an amount subject to lender approval.