Robert Wone /// Part 3 of 4

Summary

True Crime Garage Episode Summary: "Robert Wone /// Part 3 of 4"

Release Date: December 4, 2024

In the third installment of their deep dive into the perplexing Robert Wone case, True Crime Garage hosts Nick and Dylan, alongside their co-host, the Captain, continue unraveling the complex web surrounding Robert Juan's untimely death. This episode meticulously dissects the inconsistencies and emerging evidence that challenge the initial narrative of an intruder’s involvement.

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1. Revisiting the Crime Scene

The episode opens with a detailed recounting of the events on August 2, 2006. Paramedics Jeff Baker and Tracy Weaver responded to a 911 call at 1509 Swan Street, where they found Victor Zabrowski on the front steps in distress. Upon entering the home, EMT Nick Baker encountered Dylan Ward in a white terry cloth robe, who silently directed him toward the front guest room. There, they discovered 32-year-old Robert Juan dead on the bed, alongside Joseph Price, who reported hearing a scream immediately after the incident.

Quote Highlight:

[08:10] Dylan: Right.

The Captain offers a skeptical view of the intruder theory, suggesting that the three men residing in the home may bear responsibility for Juan’s death. He points out, “No, not so fast, Mr. 1, 2, or maybe even all three of the people that lived in this home are responsible for what happened to Robert Juan.”

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2. Unveiling the "Joy Toys"

A pivotal moment in the episode is the revelation of the so-called "joy toys" discovered in Dylan Ward's room. These items, consisting of various S&M apparatuses like dildos, handcuffs, and ball gags, raise questions about the nature of Juan’s visit.

Quote Highlight:

[06:22] The Captain: Yeah, to put it plain and simple, there's dildos in there, there's handcuffs in there, there's ball gags in there.

Nick and the Captain deliberate on the implications of possessing such items, debating whether their presence indicates consensual activities or something more sinister. They argue that while possession of these items doesn't inherently denote malicious intent, their abundance and variety are suspicious when coupled with Juan’s death.

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3. Semen and DNA Evidence: Dissecting the Intruder Theory

The hosts delve into the DNA evidence found on Juan’s body, which contradicts the intruder narrative. Semen samples matched Juan, with no traces of an unknown assailant, undermining the claim that an outsider was responsible.

Quote Highlight:

[21:10] Dylan: Yeah, and we have to. I think this subject is very important to the case because of the evidence we found. We find evidence of semen, basically on his genitalia and basically inside him. So there's a sexual component to this murder. It makes zero sense. The intruder theory.

They explore the possibility that Juan was either incapacitated or unwillingly involved in the events leading to his death, possibly through drugging. The presence of puncture marks and needle evidence further complicates the case, with discussions around whether these marks resulted from medical attempts to save Juan or as part of an assault.

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4. The Controversial Blog and Public Scrutiny

The episode addresses the blog initiated by the three men residing at 1509 Swan Street, intended to document and analyze the Juan case. The blog’s focus on Juan’s possible sexual orientation introduces another layer of complexity, yet no public comments confirm any intimate relationship between Juan and the residents.

Quote Highlight:

[17:49] The Captain: So they started up this blog... they talk about whether Robert was gay or bisexual.

This effort to apply a "gay Eye" to the investigation raises eyebrows, as the hosts note the absence of concrete evidence supporting such claims, emphasizing that Juan’s personal communications do not indicate any premeditated consensual activities.

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5. Law Enforcement’s Investigation and Charges

As the investigation unfolds, Dylan Ward becomes the primary target of law enforcement, culminating in obstruction of justice charges in 2008. Subsequently, conspiracy charges are extended to Joseph Price and Victor Zabrowski.

Quote Highlight:

[46:06] The Captain: Yeah, so what we end up here with, Captain, is we get obstruction of justice charge and eventually that carries over to all three.

The hosts critique the prosecution and defense strategies, highlighting the complexity of proving a murder conviction based solely on circumstantial evidence. They discuss the potential motives behind the charges, suggesting that the men's attempts to cover up the incident may stem from eliminating traces of an accidental or consensual death.

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6. The Trial Dynamics and Legal Maneuvers

The impending trial presents a battleground where prosecution and defense attorneys lay out their cases amidst a backdrop of conflicting evidence. The defense opts for a judge trial, believing it may offer a more favorable outcome than a jury. The hosts analyze the strength of both sides, acknowledging the prowess of the legal representatives involved.

Quote Highlight:

[47:29] Dylan: Yeah. And we have the prosecution and the defense attorney... both of them were rather brilliant.

They scrutinize the judge's delayed verdict delivery, interpreting it as a sign of the case's intricacy and the judge’s careful consideration of the presented evidence.

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7. Emerging Theories and Host Perspectives

Nick and Dylan offer their own interpretations of the evidence, contemplating scenarios where Juan may have been an unwilling participant possibly involved in recreational activities that escalated fatally. They question the plausibility of an accidental overdose versus a deliberate act of murder, especially considering the meticulous attempts to obfuscate the truth.

Quote Highlight:

[52:09] Dylan: Right.

The hosts express frustration over the lack of concrete evidence tying the three men directly to Juan’s death, yet acknowledge the circumstantial weight that suggests their involvement in either the murder or its cover-up.

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8. Concluding Thoughts and Anticipation for Part 4

As the episode wraps up, the hosts reflect on the human element of the case, mourning Juan’s loss while grappling with the tangled evidence that defies easy explanation. They express a keen interest in uncovering further truths in the forthcoming final installment, underscoring the unresolved nature of this true crime narrative.

Quote Highlight:

[55:02] The Captain: It took like 45 minutes for her to deliver her verdict because she had so many thoughts about the case and the evidence...

Nick and Dylan emphasize the importance of continued investigation and the pursuit of justice, leaving listeners eager for the concluding chapter of Juan’s story.

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Key Takeaways

• Inconsistencies in the Intruder Theory: DNA evidence does not support the presence of an unknown assailant.

• Suspicious Evidence: The discovery of extensive S&M equipment raises questions about the nature of Juan’s visit and the intentions of the residents.

• Legal Proceedings: Obstruction of justice and conspiracy charges against the three men highlight the potential depth of their involvement.

• Unanswered Questions: The episode concludes with lingering doubts about the true sequence of events, setting the stage for further revelations in Part 4.

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Notable Quotes:

• “...do you know if, if he were a willing participant, then the three guys then have to do this kind of a cover up.” — Nick (44:27)

• “You think you would find some kind of evidence. And also, like we were talking about the arrangements he made with Joe to stay are through email.” — Dylan (16:49)

• “But police have to call into question what they're seeing here.” — The Captain (07:38)

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This episode of True Crime Garage masterfully dissects the Robert Juan case, blending critical analysis with empathetic reflections, and navigates the murky waters of legal intrigue to present a compelling narrative that keeps listeners engaged and eager for the resolution in the final part.

Transcript

[Nick]

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[The Captain]

Here is the captain.

[Dylan]

It's good to be seen and good to see you. Thanks for listening. Thanks for telling a friend.

[Nick]

This week we are very excited, filled with the spirit of Christmas one might say as yes, it is that time of year for Christmas ale. Christmas ale from the Great Lakes Brewing Company has been a seasonal favorite for years and is available for purchase starting sometime time in October. But for me, the Christmas season starts with my first Christmas ale this year. That was December 1st. So let the Christmas time begin. ABV 7.5% garage grade, four and a half bottle caps out of five. And let's give out some holiday cheer and tidings of goodwill to some of our good garage faithful. First up, cheers to Jillian from Madison Heights, Michigan.

[Dylan]

And a big wee like a jib goes out to Shelly from Erie, Pennsylvania.

[Nick]

Next up, we have a long distance cheers to Jen in Eugene, Oregon. And last but certainly not least, we have John Laxon out in Eli, Minnesota. Everyone we just mentioned went to truecrimegarage.com clicked on the pint glass and helped out with this week's beer fund. And for that we thank you.

[Dylan]

Yeah, BW Beer run. We have been talking about some fabulous, interesting things on off the Record. If you're not subscribed, you should do so now on Patreon or Apple podcast subscription and Colonel, that's enough of the BS NEOs.

[Nick]

All right everybody, gather round, grab a chair, grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime.

[The Captain]

Just minutes before midnight on August 2, 2006, paramedics Jeff Baker and Tracy Weaver arrived in their medical unit at 1509 Swan Street. In response to a 911 call from one of the individuals that lived there, Mr. Victor Zabrowski, who they found standing on the front steps in a white terry cloth robe. Robert Zabrowski was crying and still on the phone with 911. Mr. Baker, the EMT approached the house and asked Victor, what's going on. Victor replied that the stabbing victim was on the second floor and he was still there. Mr. Baker entered the house and began going up the stairs to the second floor. Before he could get to the top of the staircase, he encountered Dylan Ward who was wearing a white terry cloth robe and walking toward him from an area from the second floor bathroom. Mr. Baker asked Dylan, what's going on? And Dylan Ward wordlessly pointed down the hall in the direction of the front guest room and then he walked into his own bedroom. There EMTs found 32 year old Robert Juan dead on the bed. They also found Joseph Price in the room with him, who told the emt, I heard a scream immediately, according to the paramedic, he says, what does he say, Captain, My antennas went up. That he was on heightened alert. He was worried that he's probably got to be concerned that whoever is responsible for harming or killing this person may still be in the home and in fact may be one of the people that occupy the home. What we end up with the people that live in the home, the three men that live in the home, they believe and tell police that an intruder entered the home, stabbed their friend three times and left under the COVID of night, seen by no one and practically barely heard by no one. What police and later a prosecutor will tell us is that. No, not so fast, Mr. 1, 2, or maybe even all three of the people of the men that lived in this home are responsible for what happened to Robert Wan. There is a lot left on the table here to sort through and I think the first thing that we promised everybody out there that we would get to and we just couldn't get to it by the end of episode two is Dylan's room, joy toys. And what they would find, what police would find in Dylan's room with a search warrant. The best way to describe it to me would be, look, there's a lot of these S M type of toys and apparatuses. There's joy toys that I guess we're calling them that.

[Dylan]

Well, that's what the defense.

[The Captain]

Yeah, to put it plain and simple, there's dildos in there, there's handcuffs in there, there's ball gags in there. And when I say that that's what they find in his room, they, they lay it all out on a table and photograph it and take inventory of everything. They being the police, after they issued the search warrant and carried it out. And I mean, it's like if you had a catalog of these types of items, it almost looks to me like Dylan has purchased every item in that catalog there is.

[Dylan]

And some of them twice, to use.

[The Captain]

A word, from the Three Amigos. He had a plethora of joy toys and, yeah, some of them twice. It looked like some of the items that were photographed were, you know, there was two of some of these items. Now, these particular items are not. Not indicative of a bad person or a murderer or even somebody that, I was going to say harm someone. But some of these items are, you know, you know, if you got whips and things like that, those are. The intent is to inflict some pain, but it's for pleasure, not for. Not for the purpose of harming someone or ending their lives. So none of these items, possession of them, it makes you a bad person. In fact, it might make you a rather exciting, fun person.

[Dylan]

Yeah.

[The Captain]

But police have to call into question what they're seeing here, of course, whether they are simple minded folk and they are all hung up on the idea of, hey, these three guys are homosexuals and they, they have a. Not a love triangle, but a different type of relationship than simply a one on one relationship. If they're all hung up on that, and then of course they're going to get hung up and be too dumb to see past these items that they're finding in Dylan's room.

[Dylan]

Right.

[The Captain]

That could be the case. That may not be the case. I do not know these police officers. I don't know these detectives. The vibe that I get is know that that's probably not the case. Could be wrong. The thing here is, though, this, when you compound these items along with some other, let's say, let's call it evidence, because there's no other thing to call it. But it also doesn't point you 100% in any one direction of who's responsible. Is we have semen evidence in this case that we've not even got to yet. Yeah, they find semen on the victim. They find DNA on the victim. Of course, detectives are going to throw their hands in the air in a V for victory. We cut, we got semen and DNA evidence. Fantastic. Let's figure out who it belongs to and let's figure out who we can charge.

[Dylan]

Right. Because the idea is, okay, this goes against the intruder theory. So somebody sexually assaulted Robert and then killed him. But what happens is we find out that the semen is Roberts and there is no other semen by any other individual, which makes this case even more confusing.

[The Captain]

Yes. So. And I also think what makes it even more confusing is where it is found.

[Dylan]

Correct.

[The Captain]

So it's found on the front of him, near the genitalia. Genitalia area. It's also found in and around the rectum. Forgive me, because I don't want to sit here and spin my tires on this too much, but all of you out there in Listener land, please use your imaginations on how that could be and where it ended up. I think that many of you out there could be thinking of scenarios that involved another person, two other people, three other people, or maybe even no other people at all. But what I think it's suggestive to me is this. We're told he shows up to the home, they hang out, they sip some water in the kitchen. And, man, the stuff that Dylan says that they talked about in the kitchen seems like the most dry, boring shit I've ever heard in my entire life. They're like, it's kind of warm in this room. Oh, it's like, it seemed to me like people that aren't really friends. You know what I mean? Like when you. When you find yourself, like, stuck at work in the meeting room and the boss or the person who's conducting the meeting hasn't arrived yet, and you just start talking about dumb to pass the time, right? Oh, it's. It's. It's warm in here. Oh, that air conditioning. Loud is loud, you know? So they do talk about some things that are more friendship, like. Like, how's your wife doing? They do talk about the roommate, the fourth roommate, the female roommate that's not present. They talk about work a little bit. One thing that I think is really glossed over and I would like to know more details about this, and we just simply don't have them. Maybe you got them, Captain. I just. I didn't find them. In the documentary and at least one or two news articles that I could find. Kathy Wan says something that's I think could be important here or at least is intriguing to me. She says that while her husband reached out to two different people. Hey, can I stay over instead of making this commute on a late night early return to work. She says that it was also good because that he was going to Joseph's house because they had some kind of business arrangement or business thing to discuss.

[Dylan]

Right?

[The Captain]

We're trying to figure out why this guy was killed. And maybe I'm grasping at straws here, but that, to me, we've seen and talked about plenty of people that Were killed because of business or suspected of killing or harming somebody because of business. That doesn't seem. Maybe it's a nothing burger, and that's why nobody ever goes into detail about it. But that's something that I am very curious about.

[Dylan]

So let's get back to the joy toys.

[The Captain]

Look at you trying to be the life of the party.

[Dylan]

Because I think this is important what law enforcement or anybody looking at this case. Look, there's so many cases that we've covered that we might not know all the details, but you can kind of give the broad strokes of what you think happened. So we have a situation where Robert gets to the house, they talk for a little bit. It's also not clear to me. They say they sit around, drink water, But I thought there was some evidence that he might have had at least one drink of. Or a small drink of wine or. That's neither here nor there. So then we have this idea. And I think you have to look at this two ways. Okay, so did Robert go over to the house? Did he have more than a friendship with Joe and Victor and Dylan? Is there a possibility that Robert had an experimental side? And was he, you know, bi or curious or whatever?

[The Captain]

Was this a first time thing?

[Dylan]

Right. And so did he stay there? Because. Well, you guys are into this and I'd like to try it. Or I've tried it before. And so that scenario, I think what law enforcement tries to lay out is at some point they drug him and maybe to enhance the experience, and then they use some toys on him. And because the defense team tries to point out, well, you can't make someone.

[The Captain]

Ejaculate unless they're into it.

[Dylan]

Yeah.

[The Captain]

I mean, that's. Sorry to be crude, but that's. I believe that's the words that the defense attorney uses or something similar.

[Dylan]

Yeah. And I would. I guess I would argue with that a little bit. Once you see the level of toys and some of the toys, these joy toys are very sophisticated. I'm like, well, if you put that on me, what.

[The Captain]

You know, I'm not trying to be dismissive of that statement from the defense attorney. Pardon me, I can't recall his name because I think he's a damn good attorney. In fact, if I were brought up on charges.

[Dylan]

Damn good.

[The Captain]

Yeah, yeah. If I were brought up on charges, guilty or innocent, and if I could afford that guy, that's the guy I'm hired. But not to be dismissive of it, but look, and I don't want to hang here too long, but remember, there's those things called wet dreams.

[Dylan]

Yeah.

[The Captain]

To me that's like you're. You don't have to be fully into whatever is happening with your body for that to take place. Yeah, I guess I'm no doctor.

[Dylan]

Yeah. My parents made me sleep with plastic sheets for years. But so I guess the idea of law enforcement is trying to put forth is, okay, so maybe Robert was into this and again, some kind of drug was used to enhance it or whatever. And then that caused a situation where they thought they killed him. So then they came up with this plan to then cover that up because. And I'm guessing, I mean, again, that doesn't make a lot of sense to me because, like, why wouldn't you just call the cops? Not. Not call the cops. Why wouldn't you just call 911 and try to save your friend? It's. It's very bizarre. But there is no evidence that Robert was even curious. And we have his cell phone, we have his computers, we have all these accounts that they go through. You think you would find some kind of evidence. And also, like we were talking about the arrangements he made with Joe to stay are through email. There wasn't a bunch of texting back and forth that this notion of like, hey, I'm going to stay at your house. If they were planning to engage in some kind of consensual fun, if you will, there's no talk about it. I mean, some of that, some of that is the foreplay, right? You know, hey, I'm going to come over to your house and this is going to happen. Oh, I can't wait.

[The Captain]

Or even to set it up because you have a limited timeline. I mean, right. For example, if I were to come over to your house and it's a school night and we got to get up early for school the next day, and we have back and forth email communication, which we've already established that they did back and forth email communication that could later be viewed by other people. That is law enforcement. On a school night where we have limited time. If we were going to be business and say, you know what, school is very important to the both of us. We're going, I'm going to crash at your place, we're going to bed, we're going to get up and be on that school bus first thing in the morning, that could be one form of communication. If we were planning on hanging out because we're good friends and having a great time and then maybe, you know, going into school half asleep because we don't care we're more worried about having a good time. You might see stuff in our email or text communication that says, hey, get out the slip and slide. We're going to, you know, hope you got some frozen pizzas. We're going to have a good time. Instead of, you know, I was going.

[Dylan]

To just bring the booze and the.

[The Captain]

I was talking about as if we. It was an actual school night. But.

[Dylan]

Well, I mean there's been a. I've had a couple of those too. A little too boozed up to go.

[The Captain]

To school, but to stay on the idea that they found nothing to suggest that Robert was wanting to experience or participate in something outside of his marriage. Yeah, this, this was key for me because look, that question always lingered like, even though, even though I was confident in my gut was telling me that's not the case because I hear the way that his wife talks about him. So it doesn't sound like she had any suspicions. This was great because we have four individuals who started up this. Who killed. I'm sorry, who murdered Robert Juan dot com. And it was initially set up by these four men to be a blog. Right. They were going to post about the case. They lived within blocks of this home or at least two of them did. Yeah, they lived within blocks. So they were fully aware of the case. They were following the case. They were intrigued by it. They say they didn't think that this case would drag on as long as it did. And they thought that they could help in some small way by creating this blog and getting people to talk and people would come on there and they would comment about the articles. Well, at some point they start posing questions. Well, we're looking at this case and we wonder is this the case or is that the case? Is that. And one of the questions that they pose is, well, could Robert Juan have been gay? Could he have been closeted, could he have been bi? Curious, Any number of these things. Now, now if this was a complete one time thing, maybe it gets, maybe it gets kept under the rug and it's a perfect secret. But I'm with the captain. I think there would have been some communication or something that would have been suggestive within the emails. Communication back and forth between Joseph and Robert to set. Because law enforcement would have pointed to that. They didn't. So they didn't find it. These three gentlemen are homosexual men. They said, and these are, this is their words. And I thought this was brilliant. They said, we thought we might be able to help the case or further the investigation by lending a gay Eye to the case. So they started up this blog. Now, what they were saying is the blog became. This case became so polarizing, so captivating to so many people of intrigue, especially people that live in D.C. and Virginia, Maryland, that they were getting comment after comment after comment about the things that they were posting, whether it be a news article, an update about the investigation, or just their own questions that they're posing. They said they started this blog within months after the murder. That's 2006. In 2013, the documentary that. I'm sorry, 2023, the documentary that came out that featured two of those gentlemen from this blog. They said out of the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of comments and statements that we got, we never, ever received anything from anybody or ever had any communication with anybody that ever said that they had any type of homosexual, bisexual, any kind of sexual encounter with Robert Wan. And what these gentlemen are saying is it's their belief that that is telling them that they do not think that Robert was there that night for that purpose.

[Dylan]

Yeah, and we have to. I think this subject is very important to the case because of the evidence we found. We find evidence of semen, basically on his genitalia and basically inside him. So there's a sexual component to this murder. It makes zero sense. The intruder theory. So an intruder goes in, somehow sexually.

[The Captain]

Assaults him, or somehow Robert's doing something to himself, and then that's possible, an intruder, but it seems highly unlikely.

[Dylan]

Right. And he. And there's no movement by the victim once he's stabbed. So to me, that is evidence that he was incapacitated on some level. And so what I wondered is because we have puncture marks on our victim, but some of those puncture marks are because the EMTs were trying to save his life. And I don't think we can account for all of those, but even so, there are some drugs that you can take that the body metabolizes. So then you go, well, did somebody inject him? Or when they're sitting around drinking the water or having, like, one glass of wine or whatever it was, is this something that you could put into somebody's drink to incapacitate them? And then it becomes not just a murder, but it becomes a sexual assault. And look, most homosexual men are not interested in straight men or absolutely not.

[The Captain]

Interested in assaulting someone.

[Dylan]

Right. Just because. Right. Just because you're gay doesn't mean you want to.

[The Captain]

You're out assaulting people.

[Dylan]

Right. But I think because we find this level of, you know, a submissive relationship and a dominant Relationship. We obviously have individuals with fantasies. And what have we seen in a lot of murders? The murder is a fantasy playing out. And so then that becomes the other angle. So if. If Robert is not a willing participant, which doesn't seem. We have no evidence of that, then what happened? And are these the type of individuals that would drug and assault their friend and then did they kill him to cover up the assault, or did they drug him and he overdosed? Because I think there's evidence to point to that, because I don't think his heart is beating when these stab wounds are made.

[The Captain]

I don't think so either.

[Dylan]

And so then what did they give him? And I think, look, you know, whether you think he was stabbed on the bed or stabbed somewhere else, I think even being stabbed on the bed, if he's completely incapacitated and his heart's not beating, he's basically dead. I still think it makes. You could make the story make sense that he was stabbed on the bed and that's where the crime took place.

[The Captain]

Well, remember the paramedics went in there with the stretcher and they had to pull robber out of the home. And one of the detectives said something that I thought was rather smart. He said that he believed that there was so little blood coming from the victim that he doesn't believe that it bubbled up and puddled on the abdomen and on the torso before trickling down, up by the shoulder and on the side of the body to make those puddles on the bed.

[Dylan]

Right.

[The Captain]

He believes that those. That blood that is found on the bed is only there because the paramedics had to roll the victim to get the stretcher underneath of him and then roll him back and put him on the stretcher. And he thinks that that is when the blood made its way from the body to the bed.

[Dylan]

And then in defense of the three men that live in the house, we have all these toys and other devices. I believe they were all test. They. I believe all of these were tested. And we don't find Robert's DNA on any of these items. But then you go, well, if that is not the knife that was used and they had to discard a knife, is it possible that they also discarded another item and maybe multiple items, maybe a bunch of bloody towels? Don't know. And then my other question is, well, was there something wrong with the gate? Because then we could have a situation where one of these individuals had to jump the fence in order to dispose.

[The Captain]

Of the other knife that was used.

[Dylan]

Exactly.

[The Captain]

So let's talk about this There's a lot of stuff still that we've not got to. So you talked about maybe did they drug them? Right. Maybe did, did somebody drug one of the persons in the home or all three or two of them, what have you. Drug robber. And he wasn't a willing participant in whatever led up to his murder. There are some things that, that are very problematic for the persons that live there. Okay, so let's go and review this part of the autopsy information. Again, there was no physical evidence whatsoever of movement by Robert Juan or the attacker at the time the stab wounds were inflicted. Right. It's almost like Robert has to be perfectly stiff, not move at all. And almost the stab wounds are administered robotically.

[Dylan]

Yeah, I don't know if we should.

[The Captain]

Use the word stiff, perfectly still and probably not conscious to move or even react. And then think about the stab motion, by the way, that it's described in the autopsy. No physical evidence whatsoever by Robert or the attacker at the time the stab wounds were inflicted. Meaning those would almost have to be robotic. And again, I can't get beyond the stabbed in a bed lying face up. People trained in cpr. I know it sounds a little far fetched to some people know. Some people out there know what I'm talking about. But now let's, let's zoom in a little closer because we have some needle marks that are found on Robert. The doctor that conducted the autopsy observed needle puncture marks to Mr. Juan's right ankle, left neck, chest, hand and forearm, inside the left elbow. I know everyone's going, oh my God. That's absolute obvious signs that somebody drugged him or, you know, there were needles used on this guy. Could be, could be. Now we have to. There's some websites in some places that I've reviewed information, and they talk about the needle puncture marks to the body. And thank you for doing that, but please include this other part here too, because within that same autopsy, what we have, once you get the complete report is the doctor goes and talks to the paramedics who made a report about what they did trying to save this young man's life. According to the two paramedics, they attempted to get IV access in the veins on the inside of Robert Juan's left elbow, attempted to gain IV access at the hand and attempted to gain IV access at the side of Mr. Juan's neck. That's the words from the report. So that does explain some of these needle marks. It doesn't explain all of them. As far as the paperwork goes, we know that paperwork doesn't always 100% reflect real life. This is a state where a situation where people are moving quickly, they're trying their damnedest to save his life, to do anything, even after the fact of showing up. And he's unresponsive and appears to have no signs of life. But it's their job. Like, if you can find someone who just died seconds ago, you might be able to bring them back. And until I have any proof that this man didn't expire seconds ago, I'm working under that idea. I have a duty that I signed up to, to protect people and to try to save lives and help people who've been hurt. So they're doing their darndest to try to save his life, maybe even bring him back, if you will. I'm appreciative of the paperwork. I'm appreciative that we have this report, and I'm appreciative that we have some explanation of some. Some is the powerful word here of the needle marks and puncture marks. According to the report, it doesn't cover all of them. So he could have still been drugged by needle somehow, some way. But also, I don't know that 100 that in the heat of the moment, in the haste of attempting to save his life, if they fully remember every time they attempted to gain access to a vein 100% accurately. I don't know. I can't say with a great level of confidence that this report is spot on. So it's one of those things that you kind of walk into and you go, this is very suspicious. Oh, wait, some of this is explained away. And at the end, I think we're left with another question mark here about some or maybe one of these needle marks.

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[Nick]

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[The Captain]

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[Dylan]

All right, we are back. Cheers, mates. If you are confused, you're in company.

[The Captain]

Welcome to the garage.

[Dylan]

You know, like I said it, this documentary is definitely worth the watch. I believe we both watched it twice. It's. It's also great too because there is a lot of information. But you know, so many of these docu series are six episodes or eight episodes and you really think that they could have condensed them down. This is two episodes, I think a little over an hour each episode. And they're just very well laid out and very well produced. But I think the reason why I enjoyed them so much was this is the first case in a long time that it's really hard for me to come up with the broad strokes. And I think that was what law enforcement was having a problem with. Okay, is Robert a participant? If he was, how did it go down? If he wasn't, how did it go down? Who was involved? Were all three guys involved? Was it two guys involved and the other one didn't know what was happening or was just one of them involved? It's very complex and confusing, but where I think law enforcement landed was these guys probably did something, but at minimum they tried to cover up something. And we have evidence of that.

[The Captain]

Yeah, and I believe that. I believe that law enforcement have some of these things. Right. And then later we keep talking about the prosecution and defense attorney. So we know at some point we're getting to a trial here. For those that have never heard of this case before, I also believe a lot of the prosecution and I think that there's a whole lot of lack of evidence or maybe things that have been covered up. The problem I keep running into is was this murder or something accidental that led to or some other crime that was committed that was then later stage to look like a murder committed by an intruder. So we talked about the lack of Blood evidence. We do know that they brought in a cadaver dog at some point that hit on the dryer trap from the washer and dryer. So police want to tell us that that is suggestive that something bloodied, was washed and then dried. That was in that machine at some point that they're hitting on blood fragments. The dog was the other item that they call into question. Is it in the basement of the home? It's a rather large basement from my understanding. There's a portion of the basement that has a drain. And nearby there was a hose that should have been spooled up, should have been rolled up, but was unraveled, that they found, you know, kind of laying out, not put away. The prosecution and the detectives found this to be a bit of a marker for them saying, look, we. We go into this home, and this home is pristine. It's very clean, it's very neat, it's very tidy. Nothing out of place. Yet. We find this hose that's unraveled, and they. I don't know if they're trying to paint a picture for us or if they 100% believe that maybe somebody was washing something down that drain. Remember, they don't find hardly any blood in. That is not typical of a stab victim, especially with multiple stab wounds. The other thing that takes place at this home is a burglary, an actual real burglary. Okay, so the way that this works is they lock up the home, they shut this baby down. No entrance, no exit. You. You do not get to go into this home. This home is on lockdown. Well, three months after Robert Juan is killed, somebody breaks in and burgles the home. Thousands of dollars of electronic equipment is stolen from this home. Eventually, police figure out that the two individuals responsible for this burglary is Joseph Price's brother, Michael, and a friend slash accomplice of his. His name is Phelps Collins. They broke into the home, they stole a bunch of valuable electronic equipment. The charges were dropped against these two because my guess here, Captain, is that it would have to be the homeowners that would want to press charges. And either they. Some say maybe Joseph Price knew in advance and told his brother to break into the home and steal some stuff. Maybe there was something of evidence in there that he was concerned about.

[Dylan]

Yeah. And to lay this out simply, if Joe Price says to his brother, hey, break into the house. They're trying to back up, hey, the intruder theory. Well, look, we had an intruder.

[The Captain]

Yeah, somebody else. Somebody else actually did break into the home.

[Dylan]

Right.

[The Captain]

Nobody is in the home at the time when it's broken into. As said, the other thing that is really called into question, too, is Michael Price's job. He works at a hospital, and they're saying that he would have access to certain anesthesia or, you know, and medications and drugs that he could have been pilfering from the hospital, from his job, and selling or supplying to his brother for reasons unknown. Again, the charges are dropped in that burglary. I'm guessing that's by Joseph Price and the other two that live there. The police would later tell us, us being the public, that the break into the home really messed up their investigation, that they were in the process or very close to arresting someone in the murder case that really changed their plans. That. And they don't ever tell us why. Okay. They never tell us why that burglary prevented them from charging someone. They also never name the person or persons that they were going to charge. They also never name what the charge or charges would have been. Again, I'm not trying to look at this and question everything, but it's hard not to. Is that just a posturing of the police to say, well, we had this case all wrapped up, and the people we told you that were guilty all along, one of them's guilty or all of them's guilty. We had this bird in hand, and somebody comes along and breaks into the home and then bird out of hand, no more case. But we're not going to give you any details of it. You know, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. So I. I don't know if that's a real thing or not. Again, I don't have any reason to not trust law enforcement on it. But whatever we do know, eventually we do get an arrest in the case, right? That there is. The case kind of drags on. But eventually what we're going to get is an obstruction of justice charges that are brought forward in 2008. The charge was filed against Dylan Ward. He had already moved out of the area by this time. He was living in Florida. It should be noted he's living in a home in Florida that is owned by Joseph Price at the time. This is weird to me, right? Because what do we see law enforcement do on more than one occasion here? They really hone in on Dylan Ward and try to figure out what's going on from him. Right. He's the only one that they take for the polygraph test the night of the murder. He's the only one that they charge In October of 2008 was it him that they thought that they could break, or was it him that they thought was the most guilty of whatever happened that night had more guilt than the others? I'm with you and I'm with what the law enforcement said. The general vibe that I get here, that maybe the most honest one or maybe the one that would break and come clean quicker than the others might be Victor, you know, and police state. He comes off as an emotional guy. And sometimes when emotions run wild, people can say things that they weren't careful enough to not say.

[Dylan]

Right.

[The Captain]

But what we see here is twice they hone in on Dylan. Well, that's interesting. They find that the S and M stuff in Dylan's room. They find what they claim is a missing knife in Dylan's room.

[Dylan]

He's on the same floor.

[The Captain]

He's on the same floor. He should have heard something. If they heard something on the second. So again, are we to believe that Dylan did something and now these other two men are just covering it up? Because I don't believe for one second the only one person in that house did something to Robert Juan and nobody else in the house knows about it or nobody else in the house helped cover it up.

[Dylan]

So law enforcement is trying to break Dylan. They let all this kind of linger, if you will, and then a month later they arrest the other two. And we don't have again, we can't put the pieces of this puzzle together. Like the bloggers told us, some of the pieces one are missing and some of the pieces are lying to us. So we can't put it together to do to charge them with murder. But I think the prosecution did the best thing they could. We're not just going to let this go. We're going to take a chance to prove that, yeah, they're responsible for the murder, but they're more responsible with tampering with evidence and trying to cover up what happened. And so if we can prove that, then at least there'll be some justice here. But we also have to remember you can be tried for a murder at any time.

[The Captain]

Yeah. So what we end up here with, Captain, is we get obstruction of justice charge and eventually that carries over to all three. A month later they add conspiracy filed against all three men, conspiracy charge. And I'm a little unclear if the tampering with evidence was ever officially filed because we do know at some point they do openly out in the public, kind of threaten that and float that out there to the public. Like tampering with evidence could be filed in the future. But Regardless, these three men are going to go on trial for obstruction of justice and conspiracy charges. As said, I thought you and I talked about this many a time leading up to this. I thought the prosecutor that is present in discussing the case very openly in the documentary, as well as one of the defense attorneys, I believe he represented Joseph Price. And I apologize, I don't know either of their names, but I thought both of them were fantastic. I thought both of them were rather brilliant. I thought that both of them presented very strong cases. Both of them have a wealth of experience, too, in prosecuting offenders and defending clients. But this would be a judge trial, not a jury.

[Dylan]

Yeah, the defense wanted to have a judge because. I can't remember. It's a higher percentage of convictions through a jury.

[The Captain]

Yes.

[Dylan]

And then also what's going to happen here is, so we have the prosecution, we have the State being the prosecutors, bring in these charges. But Joe, Dylan and Victor, they're going to have to have their own separate lawyers, even though they're being basically tried together, if that makes any sense.

[The Captain]

Correct. And a lot of evidence is presented both ways. What we do know, for the defense and against the defendants in the affidavit that was filed, that report states, this is the State's case, if you will. They're simply saying there's evidence that demonstrates that Robert Juan was restrained, incapacitated, sexually assaulted and murdered inside the home of 1509 Swan Street. And they say it. There exists overwhelming evidence that Joseph Price, Victor Zabrowski, and Dylan Ward altered and orchestrated this crime scene, that they planted evidence, that they concealed evidence that they hid evidence that they delayed reporting the murder to authorities, that they lied to police. And you know what's. What's interesting here? Like, if. God, I wish this was a movie instead of real life, because Robert seemed like one freaking good guy. Like. And I know that we shouldn't, like, create tiers of victims, but I mean, the acts of kindness that he carried out to people he knew and didn't know is an example of how all of us, I think, should live our lives. And it. It's heartbreaking. I mean, all these cases are. But whatever happened there that night, I. Man, I don't know. I don't know. I told you, I got strong feelings about how he was stabbed, where he was stabbed, and what happened to him. I. I think that if he were a. I think the problem is I kept circling around the idea that these guys had to cover it up because they were doing something illegal or Robert wasn't a willing participant. Or whatever. And that may very well be the case. And of course, if he dies in the. In. I don't think they stabbed him or one of these people stabbed him as part of some recreation activity. Right? Sexual activity. Recreation activity, whatever. I don't. I think they stabbed him after the fact to make it look like something completely different happened. I think that either there was drugs administered that. That something went wrong. When you, when you introduce foreign substances into the body, anything can happen. And some people that live very clean lives can react very different to people that, you know, are out boozing and drugging it up week after week. Or, you know, we saw those ball gags and stuff that were in those pictures that he somehow suffocate or asphyxiation.

[Dylan]

And there was some evidence of suffocation.

[The Captain]

There's petechial hemorrhaging that they found, which would. Which would suggest that that could happen.

[Dylan]

But again, goes back to the question, was he a willing participant in any of this? And so this is a very tough trial, and I think the prosecution thinks they did the best they could to lay out what they believe happened. And their argument is he came over, he was drugged at some point, then to cover up that, because again, you. You have these drugs that you're not supposed to have that would get your brother in trouble. But let's just get Dylan out of the picture for a second. We got two individuals that work. One, they're public. They're almost like public figures at big corporations. They're successful. They're on their way up. And if this gets out, this could destroy their lives. So when people go, I just don't understand it. Why would they harm their friend and then try to cover it up? They had, well, a lot to lose.

[The Captain]

If they're harming him, if they're doing things to him against his will, they absolutely. And he dies in the process, absolutely have to cover it up, because that's murder. And they already murdered him before they stabbed him and tried to hide evidence and conceal and tamper with the scene.

[Dylan]

Right.

[The Captain]

So they absolutely have to cover that up. Where I keep struggling, Captain, is I can't figure out if I kept saying, you know what, they had to cover up the scene because he was an unwilling participant, that, that's rape. They drugged him, they raped him, the ball gagged him, whatever. However, he died. When they didn't think that he would die, he did, and therefore it's murder. And they had to cover it up in this manner. But then I got to thinking even more. Given their jobs Given their lifestyle, given their big beautiful home and their salaries and all the years that they went to schooling and all the hard days at work that they put in leading up to this, Even if he was a willing participant, and again, to Robert's family and to his wife, there's no evidence of that. But I'm just trying to explore every avenue here. If he was participating in something and died by accident, I actually think that they might have to go to these extremes to cover it up anyway. Because it's very difficult, I think, to be a gay rights activist attorney. And somebody dies inside your home and is anybody going to take your ass seriously after that? Is anybody? Can you still report to your job and have a job after that? Can you be the face of gay rights after that? No, I don't think you can be. And it doesn't matter what we think. It matters what the people inside the home thought when whatever went down happened, that they decided in that moment right there and then we got to do something about this. We got to cover it up. And like I said, man, I wish this was a movie instead of Real freaking life. Because if this were a movie, it would make much more sense. And parts of that, it's like, okay, we're sitting together on the couch, the three of us. Who's the one talking to the police? The guy that's actually a lawyer, Right. Joseph Price, who's the one that we picked out of our group of three to make the 911 call? Oh, a guy that works in the world of marketing. Maybe he said some things on that call that he shouldn't have and gave up, gave up the goose a little bit. Who's the one that we try to keep quiet the most? Dylan. Who doesn't have the big fancy job and has all the sex toys and all the other stuff in his room.

[Dylan]

But like I said, it's, I think because as they're presenting this trial and they're trying to get these guys convicted of a cover up, and I think that's the logical explanation. But it's hard to even just broad strokes to go, this happened then this probably happened then this happened, okay? And even if you can figure out those pieces of the puzzle, you then have to prove it. And this judge to me gave a very strange ruling.

[The Captain]

It took like 45 minutes for her to deliver her verdict because she had so many thoughts about the case and the evidence about the case that she wanted to make sure that they became public record and that she stated them openly to everyone in that courtroom. So they, they perfectly understood her thoughts because her thoughts seem to not mirror her verdict.

[Dylan]

I want to thank you guys so much for joining us here in the garage each and every week. Stay tuned for part four. I love these deep dives.

[Nick]

And until then, be good, be kind, and don't litter.