The Collector & the Fugitive /// Part 2 /// 755

Summary

True Crime Garage — The Collector & the Fugitive /// Part 2 /// 755

May 1, 2024

Episode Overview

In this second part of their deep dive into the crimes of Leonard Lake and Charles Ng, hosts Nic and the Captain revisit one of California’s most chilling and complex serial murder cases from the 1980s. They explore the victims, the infamous "Operation Miranda," the evidence uncovered at the Calaveras County "death camp," and the subsequent investigation, manhunt, and extradition that led to Charles Ng's trial. The episode blends thorough research, candid analysis, and sharp commentary, offering listeners a compelling examination of how a fantasy inspired by literature became a real-life nightmare — and how the killers’ own recklessness led to their downfall.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Evolution of “Operation Miranda” and the Death Bunker (03:07 – 07:50)

• Leonard Lake’s Fantasy: Lake, inspired by the novel The Collector, created “Operation Miranda,” building a bunker purportedly for "end times" but actually designed as a holding cell for a female sex slave. This chilling plan was presented to Charles Ng as their partnership started.
• Victims Disappear: Multiple individuals vanish after being lured to the ranch owned by Lake. The so-called "Pink Palace" also becomes a focal point as several residents go missing after contact with Lake and Ng.
• Quote:
  • “A bunker built to keep a woman and hold her captive so Lake could fulfill his almost lifelong fantasy of having a slave...” — Nic (03:45)

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The Victims and Pattern of Crimes (07:50 – 14:30)

• Overview of Victims: The hosts detail disappearances tied to Lake and Ng, including Maurice Rock, Cheryl Okora (possibly the first Operation Miranda victim), and Randy Jacobson.
• The Paul Costner Case: Costner disappears after trying to sell his car, leaving behind strange answering machine messages and concern from family. Repetition and lack of clear connections between victims made it hard for law enforcement to link the crimes earlier.
• Ng’s Social Oddities: Ng is described as a misfit at work, showing off martial arts and making disturbing remarks (“no gun, no fun, no kill, no thrill”).
• Quote:
  • “The story on some level starts becoming so monotonous because…it’s, you cross paths with Leonard and Charles, nobody sees you again.” — Captain (09:34)

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Literary Inspiration & Psychological Motives (14:31 – 17:50)

• Influence of The Collector: Lake’s crimes were heavily influenced by John Fowles’ novel, and the hosts draw parallels between the book, “Silence of the Lambs,” and the killers’ need for control and documentation.
• Fragility and Identity: The hosts discuss how Lake’s fragile personality and compulsive need for meaning or identity were key drivers.
• Quote:
  • “Hurt people, hurt people. I think these two individuals were so desperate to want to be somebody, to have some kind of power over somebody.” — Captain (16:43)

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The Downfall: Shoplifting and Discovery (28:06 – 34:18)

• Store Theft and Arrest: The pair’s downfall begins with Ng shoplifting from a hardware store, triggering police involvement. Lake is left behind and tries to talk his way out, but inconsistencies in his identification unravel his web of stolen identities.
• Identity Confusion: Police find Lake with a license, car, and plates each belonging to different missing persons, raising immediate alarms. Discovery of a gun with a silencer and traces of blood heightens suspicion.
• Lake’s Suicide: While detained, Lake commits suicide with a cyanide pill sewn into his shirt, after writing a farewell letter but providing no substantial confession.
• Quote:
  • “So you have a driver’s license that doesn’t look like the man standing in front of you, you have a vehicle that doesn’t belong to the driver’s license name, and…a license plate that doesn’t belong to the registered name.” — Nic (32:30)

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The “Death Camp”: Evidence at the Compound (38:16 – 43:25)

• Uncovering the Bunker: Police find a sea of evidence: vehicles belonging to victims, identities stolen, checks cashed, and a bunker/dungeon with written "rules for female captives."
• Journals and Videotapes: Lake’s detailed journals and horrifying videotapes document the torture and captivity of women. Burn sites and buried remains reveal the extent of the violence, though the total victim count remains uncertain (estimates range from 11 to 27).
• Quote:
  • “They found what has been referred to from many different sources as a sea of evidence of murder, kidnapping and torture…” — Nick (34:33)

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Manhunt, Extradition, and Justice (46:00 – 53:34)

• Ng’s Arrest in Canada: Ng, a habitual shoplifter, is caught in Calgary. U.S. authorities face years-long extradition battles due to Canada’s reluctance over the death penalty.
• Trial Costs: Ng’s eventual U.S. trial becomes the most expensive in California’s history, with millions spent and over a decade before final conviction.
• Controversial Immunity: Lake’s ex-wife, Clairlin Balaz, is granted immunity for her cooperation despite evidence of her benefiting from stolen identities and her name on murder weapons; her full level of involvement remains unclear.
• Quote:
  • “Her name and identity are all over the place at that property…two of the guns…were registered to Clairlin Balaz.” — Nick (52:27)

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The Videos, Legacy, and Psychological Analysis (54:01 – 61:21)

• Disturbing Recordings: The videotapes prove Ng’s active participation in the crimes, refuting any narrative of coercion. Both men’s differing psychologies are contrasted: Lake obsessed with the “Collector” fantasy, Ng more impulsive and self-serving.
• Media Fascination: The existence of visual evidence (tapes) both horrifies investigators and cements the case’s notoriety.
• Judicial Conclusion: The trial judge, after reviewing evidence, concludes that Ng was not merely following Lake but was a willing participant.
• Quote:
  • “Mr. Ng was not under any duress, nor does the evidence support that he was under the domination of Leonard Lake.” — Nick, quoting the judge (61:15)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Lake’s Fantasy:
  “A bunker built to keep a woman and hold her captive so Lake could fulfill his almost lifelong fantasy of having a slave...” — Nic (03:45)
• On Victim Patterns:
  “You cross paths with Leonard and Charles, nobody sees you again.” — Captain (09:34)
• On Literary Influence:
  “Hurt people, hurt people. I think these two individuals were so desperate to want to be somebody, to have some kind of power over somebody.” — Captain (16:43)
• On Shoplifting Blunder:
  “That was the downfall and what got them to be ultimately caught for crimes way more heinous than shoplifting.” — Captain (55:18)
• On the Tapes’ Importance:
  “What those tapes confirm is, no, he was willing…he is speaking to the victim, he too is threatening the victim. Is he being subservient to Leonard Lake? Yeah…but…he did this willingly.” — Nick (60:15–61:21)

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Major Timestamps

• Survival Bunker & Operation Miranda — 03:07
• Victims from the “Pink Palace” — 05:43
• Paul Costner Disappearance — 08:30
• Ng’s Work History & Odd Behavior — 11:46
• Literary Influences & Psychology — 14:31
• Shoplifting Incident & Lake’s Arrest — 28:06–34:18
• Discovery of the Death Camp & Evidence — 34:33–43:25
• Victim Count Uncertainty — 46:02
• Ng’s Manhunt, Extradition, and Trial — 46:00–53:34
• Immunity Controversy (Clairlin Balaz) — 52:27
• The Videotapes and Case Legacy — 54:01–61:21

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Episode Tone & Style

Nic and the Captain maintain their signature mix of detailed case analysis, candid conversation, and sardonic humor — punctuating grim facts with asides, pop culture references, and an occasionally irreverent tone. They address the horror of the case respectfully but don’t shy from discussing the bizarre, frustrating, or outlandish aspects.

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Final Thoughts

• True Crime Garage provides a thorough and accessible breakdown of the Leonard Lake and Charles Ng case, tracing the crimes from conception (“Operation Miranda”) to capture, trial, and the unresolved questions about the true number of victims and the extent of others' involvement.
• The episode highlights how criminal egos, misfit psychologies, and obsessive record-keeping contributed both to the scope of their crimes and their inevitable exposure.
• Listeners are left pondering not only the horrors committed, but also how the fantasy world of one offender and the impulsiveness of another combined to devastating real-world effect.

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Recommended Reading (61:46):

• A Letter from Sherry by Cheryl Grant — A book inspired by these murders, detailing the search for answers by the daughter of victim Sherry Okora, including the emotional impact of discovering her mother’s fate through police evidence.

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For further immersion into true crime analysis and storytelling, visit True Crime Garage or join their Patreon for bonus episodes.

Transcript

[Ryan Reynolds]

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[Nick]

Welcome to True Crime Garage, wherever you are, whatever you're doing. Thanks for listening. I'm your host, Nick, and with me, as always, is a man who just informed me this morning that if Jest Steel does not win the Kentucky Derby, well, the garage may shut down for good. Here is the slightly optimistic Captain.

[Captain]

I made some bad bets with the bookie and now my knees are on trial. It's good to be seen. It's good to see you.

[Co-host]

Thanks for listening.

[Captain]

Thanks for telling a friend.

[Nick]

Today we are still sipping on some delightful Sierra Nevada Summerfest. This is a smooth and refreshing summer lager that is back on the shelves and in the beer coolers and beer caves right now for your consumption. Enjoy. ABV 5% garage grade 4 out of 5 bottle caps. And here's some cheers to our friends who continue to help us out. First up, a big shout out to Nicole Thomas in Prosser, Washington.

[Captain]

And a big shout out to my bookie sister Jen Von from Queens, New York.

[Nick]

Like your jeer. Next up, we have a long distance cheers to Stefan in Warndorf, Germany. And last but certainly not least, we have an even longer distance cheers to Ben Woodham from Spring Farm, New South Wales, Australia. An absolute dream destination for me. Who knows, maybe someday. Captain, everyone we just mentioned contributed to the True Crime Garage beer fund. And for that we thank you.

[Co-host]

Yeah, bwr.

[Captain]

You win. Beer run. And a big thank you to all of our Patreon and Apple subscription subscribers. On Sunday we released a great episode where me and Nick get into a little heated debate about the Devil's Knot

[Co-host]

and the West Memphis Three Case.

[Captain]

So check that out. And that's enough of the business.

[Nick]

All right, kiddos, everybody gather round. Grab a chair, grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime. We've already discussed Operation Fish. We started to talk a little bit about Operation Miranda. Remember in 1984 when Charles Ng meets back up with his fugitive friend, Leonard Lake. We have this bunker that was built, this survival shed. It's. It's difficult looking at this today, Captain. And I've seen pictures of this structure over the years. I don't think this is holding up to any type of nuclear holocaust. But again, we have Leonard Lake, who's living under the name of Charles Gunner at the time, telling neighbors that this structure is built for end times. It's a. Just in case. It's a survival bunker. But we have this bunker that's built also as a holding cell. That is the way or the purpose that was described to Charles Ng when he meets back up with Leonard Lake. A bunker built to keep a woman and hold her captive so Lake could fulfill his almost lifelong fantasy of having a slave, a female slave for both work and sex and simply for Leonard's pleasure. And if she didn't fall in line or do as he ordered, she would be punished. And she would learn the rules, she would learn to obey, and she would even someday, Leonard believe on a long enough timeline, learn to enjoy being his slave and enjoy pleasing him. And if she didn't, well, he would kill her and try again with a new slave. There was also Operation Pink Palace. Pink palace was a rooming house located in San Francisco. What we do know about this Operation Pink palace is that from the time period of August of 1984 through the month of October 1984, three persons who were living at this Pink palace would leave and never return or simply vanish. So there's Maurice Rock of San Francisco, who disappeared from the Carl Street Pink palace rooming house sometime in August. There's also Cheryl Okora, who she too, of San Francisco. Unfortunately, Cheryl may have been the first Operation Miranda victim. And then there is Randy Jacobson, age 36, also staying for a while at the Pink Palace. He's last seen on October 15, 1984. There's a little bit of confusion on my end here, Captain. I, I don't think all three of these individuals were living together. We also know that not all three of these individuals went missing at the same time, because at the very least, Randy Jacobson and is seen many times by many people for at least 45, 50 days after Maurice Rock and Cheryl Okor are last seen.

[Co-host]

Right.

[Nick]

I think what happened here, and there's evidence to suggest this, is that the three of them, or, or at least one or two of them, they didn't disappear necessarily from the Pink Palace. They went out to the ranch where Lake and Ng were living again under that same Ruse of, oh, here's a job. We need somebody to work the land or work on this pot farm. We think that a similar fate befell Maurice Rock and Randy Jacobson. Detectives believe that Cheryl was probably most likely the first victim of this whole dream fantasy that Leonard Lake created that he called Operation Miranda. That takes us through October of 1984. On November 2, 1984, Paul Costner, age 40, he's last seen. He's living in the general San Francisco, California area. This man, he actually has ties to Ohio here, Captain. He grew up in Reynoldsburg, Ohio. At some point he's offered a job to move out west and he takes that job. Some of his family move out there with him. And this wasn't a wife and kids. I believe it was his mother and sister. Paul Costner owns a 1980 Honda Prelude. He disappears and so does the vehicle. This is a similar situation to what we've already discussed. Costner had advertised the vehicle for sale in a local newspaper. So he tells family that he had been in contact with a potential buyer. He describes this buyer as a weird guy. Now, on the night that he's last seen or last known to be alive and well, he's leaving his apartment. This is between 7:30 and 8:00pm and he's leaving to meet this potential buyer, the one that he described as a weird guy. He never returns. He's never heard from again. His family doesn't see him again. They don't see the car again.

[Co-host]

Well, just a few more details on that. He was actually going out on a date and tells his date, hey, I'm going to be a little late because this guy that I was telling you about that wants to buy my car, I got to go on a test drive with him and to see if he really wants to buy the car. So I'm going to be a little late again. Last time anybody hears from him, nobody ever sees him again. That's like this story on some level starts becoming so monotonous because it's. You cross paths with Leonard and Charles, nobody sees you again.

[Nick]

If they have something that you. That they want, if you have something that they want or that they need for their survival as they perceive it, then like the captain said, they take control of the situation and you simply disappear. There was some information that says that there were strange messages that were left on Paul Cosner's answering machine. I don't have the details of that here, Captain, but if, in fact, if that's true, that seems very similar to what we've seen with Charles Gunner, you know, he runs off with. With some woman, Donald Lake, decides to not live with mom anymore. We have Harvey Dubs, whose employer receives a phone call from a mystery man, if you will, stating that Harvey Dubs had to go off on this family emergency. So, like you said, it's. It's repetitive. But the thing here is these victims, these people that are going missing, there's no real connection to each other. Right. Other than you have the Dubs family and other than you have these persons from the Pink palace, but there's no real connection from. From Donald Lake to. Well, I guess in that situation, you would have Donald Lake and Charles Gunner at the nucleus. There would be Leonard Lake, but the Pink palace people, the Dubs family, there's no connection to those. There's no connection to Paul Costner. Yeah.

[Co-host]

So it's not like law enforcement has all these people missing and that. And they're all. There's a focus around Leonard Lake or. Or Charles.

[Nick]

But no, because this would all have been busted up much sooner.

[Co-host]

Right.

[Nick]

And unfortunately, lives would have been saved. What we do have, too, at this time, we do have Charles Eng. He is working. He's working for some type of moving company. He's kind of not fitting in with his fellow employees, his co workers. And in fact, a lot of the dudes there think he's rather weird because he's always. He's always, like, practicing martial arts in front of them. He's shouting out things and always bragging about his time in the Marines and shouting out things like no gun, no fun, no kill, no thrill. Things that are, you know, off putting, to say the least. You don't want to hear some dude at work shouting those things out and then buddy up with him. But somehow he ends up befriending a couple of people at this moving company. One of them is Jeffrey Gerald. He vanishes. This is in February of 85. This is after telling a few people that he was going to go help Charles for a side job. He's never seen after that later, what we know is that Gerald's car is listed for sale and it's being sold by a person named Charles Gunner. We also have Michael Carroll. This story is one of the more strange portions of this overall story.

[Co-host]

This whole story is strange.

[Nick]

It's. It's bizarre. And. And I. I mean, I don't take any great relief in saying this, but I. I do want to point out, I don't think that some of these crimes can happen today. I don't think that someone could fly under the radar for so long. With this level of risky behavior today, I just don't think that it could happen.

[Co-host]

One of the things that popped into my head when researching these insane two individuals was Facebook Marketplace, because these guys would have had a field day with Facebook Marketplace. If you have an item that's for sale that they want and that is a means to end for them, then they're going to come find you, kidnap your family, kill them or kill you. And then also, you know, the, the Collector, the book the Collector, it kind of reminded me of Silence of the Lambs a little bit. The Buffalo Bill, there's all these facets to the story and, and once it, once the full picture is painted, it all makes sense.

[Nick]

Well, and one of the things that I will never forget because to me it was such a shocking, a sad but true statement from Thomas Harris, who penned Silence of the Lambs and the, the other great books both before and after. When interviewed, he said that, that nothing that he wrote about was false. Everything that he wrote about was true. Now, of course, those characters don't exist and those exact scenarios did not exist.

[Co-host]

Right.

[Nick]

But what he is saying is he simply had to take situations and real life events that he had reviewed and read about over the years and then apply his own creativity and imagination to them. And so you're exactly right to, to kind of pair this up with a work of literature. Back to something of Silence of the Lambs and the Collector, as said, unfortunately, it was a piece of inspiration for a, an absolute monster like Leonard La. But it is a rather brilliant book and John Foals, who wrote the book, certainly didn't have any intention of it leading to something of this nature. It's just meant to be literature, to be art.

[Co-host]

Well, yeah, but that's what happens when you have fragile individuals. They're looking for their identity, they're looking for a path. So then Leonard Lake reads this book and boom, he finds his path, he finds his identity through this, this novel.

[Nick]

And he carries that with him. And then at some point, it looks like, like you said, fragile. I'm glad you used that word because he strikes me as the type of individual that was looking for a reason. Give me a reason to go off and just do whatever the hell that I want to. To live this life of lawlessness and chaos and causing other people harm and taking what I want when I want it.

[Co-host]

And I mean, we have these sayings for a reason. Hurt people, hurt people. I, I think these two individuals were, they were so desperate to want to be somebody, to have some kind of power over somebody. And it's just so strange that these two individuals found each other and then decided, hey, you can help me live out my fantasies, I can help you live out your fantasies.

[Nick]

And I think that what we have here with Lake is I think this guy was probably a real asshole to begin with. And then he got shipped off to Vietnam and then that was the breaking point. And when he came back at some point he decided, none of this is for me anymore. I don't have to follow your rules. I can do what I want. The end times are upon us.

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[Captain]

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[Ryan Reynolds]

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[Co-host]

All right, we are back. Cheers mates. Cheers. Cheers Colonel.

[Nick]

Yeah, cheers to you, Captain. Cheers to everybody out there in Listener land if you're drinking in your garage tall cans in the air. I mentioned a little bit this Michael Carroll situation. He had actually served time with Charles Ng when he was serving time for stealing from the government and they remained in contact with one another. Eventually, Michael Carroll goes out to visit with Charles Ng. He's kind of lured out there the same way that some of the other persons were that we've already discussed. He's missing for a few days. And that's when Leonard Lake and Ing decide, well, we're going to get in contact with Michael's girlfriend, Kathleen Allen. She agrees to go with them because they tell her a story that Michael has been injured, that he's been shot, and she needs to go visit him. You know, this is before the days of cell phones and she needs to go out of town and visit her boyfriend. So she goes with these two guys. Later, she's going to find herself in a situation locked up at the lake and in house and in this bunker that's been constructed. We do end up learning a lot about Leonard Lake. A lot of that comes from journals that he kept. He kept journals that he would make daily entries into. Kathleen Allen is discussed in some of these entries.

[Co-host]

Well, let's just stay on that for a second because one of the things I think is fascinating about his journaling and then obviously we know that he gets this film equipment and he wants to film these pornographies, but film other things. I mean there's, he has it where he is being interviewed on some of these videos. And it's all that goes back to me looking at this crimes. It goes back to this idea that Leonard Lake thought he was something way more important than he was and that it was up to him to document all this stuff, whether it's through journaling or through photographs or through interviews or through pornography that he is so special he needs to document all this stuff.

[Nick]

Yeah, it's very strange because it's, you know, it's not the same exact risky behavior as BTK reaching out to the media or Zodiac reaching out to newspapers. But in a way it's creating more evidence against you. Very strange behavior. And I, I, I don't think that we, we may not ever fully understand this need that he seemed to have for cataloging or at least documenting some of this behavior and some of the actions.

[Co-host]

Well, I'm glad you brought up BTK because Leonard Lake, to me, if you've never seen him, he looks like a chubby version of Dennis Raider.

[Nick]

We also have the Bond family. We got Lonnie Bond. We have his common law wife and some sources refer to her as just living girlfriend. Her name is Brenda O. Connor. They, the two of them together have a son. These persons have the unfortunate luck of living near Leonard Lake and Charles Ng. And they had regular communication or interactions with the one neighbor that they knew as Charles Gunner. Lonnie Bond and his son and then wife. They go missing. They are no longer seen at their home. It's believed that Lake was already stealing. This was one of the neighbors that he had been stealing from. They had some kind of. I don't know if I want to call it a friendship, but again, they're neighbors and they had regular interaction with one another. We're going to circle back to the bonds here in a little bit. This will be. They go missing at some point in April of 1985. So let's fast forward to June 2nd of 1985. We have Charles Ng and Leonard Lake. They are at a lumberyard slash hardware store. Charles Ng is spotted by the manager or the owner stealing from the store.

[Co-host]

Yeah. The owner said that these two individuals came in from time to time. So when they came in together, they're like, well, those are those two guys that have been in the shop before. This time was different, though, because Charles grabs some items and then takes off running.

[Nick]

Yeah, Some of it was. It's been reported as building equipment. What's regularly reported is that it was a vise and probably some other items. So the shop, they phone it into police. Right. Police arrive on the scene. Well, unfortunately, the sirens are going to tip these two off. Charles Ng flees. Left behind is Leonard Lake. Leonard Lake is then offering to pay for all of these items. No, it's just a misunderstanding. He wasn't stealing anything. It's not a big deal. I can pay for everything, and we can all be on our merry way.

[Co-host]

Well, and like I said, these owners knew these two individuals. They've come into the store before. So I think that Leonard and Charles went into the store thinking that nobody knew that they were connected. So when Charles takes off with the items and then Leonard realizes they know that I'm connected to him. Hey, hey, guys. Just a misunderstanding. I can make this right. Lucky for us, for whatever reason, because most store owners would go, okay, yeah, fine. If you're gonna pay for the stuff, just pay for it and we'll call it a day. Lucky for us, they said, no, we're not going to accept that. We're going to call law enforcement.

[Nick]

Yeah. And you have to wonder if you, like you said, Captain, if they were familiar with these two. Was there a routine of, oh, we got a couple items missing from our inventory. And then after a while, you start to pick up all you know, this group of people, that those persons were here yesterday or about that same time. And, oh, every time we seem to see this one guy, we've never seen him steal anything. He seems like a nice enough guy, but there's always something that comes up missing. And so maybe they were keeping a good eye on these two. And you say. And I said the same. They knew the workers. They knew these two because they regularly came into the store. But at this point in our timeline, does anybody really know Leonard Lake? Has he used his real name on any occasion at any time?

[Co-host]

Right.

[Nick]

Leading up to this? So this. This is what. What we get here is we get a very observant police officer. And I'm. We're also thankful that this is the way that this went down, because what happens is Leonard Lake is there, as said, he's saying, I can pay for this. No big deal. It's a big misunderstanding. When the police officer looks at Leonard Lake's identification. Oh, by the way, Leonard Lake is not using that name. He's using the name of Robin Stapley. So he looks at Robin Stapley's California driver's license, and the officer's like, wait a second. This the guy in front of me and the guy in the picture on this driver's license. They don't look anything alike. We're going to phone this in, right? Call it into the department. I got a Robin Stapley here. He doesn't look anything like his driver's license.

[Co-host]

Well, and then he has to call in the. The vehicle that this individual, that he doesn't know who he is yet. They got to call him.

[Nick]

The vehicle Robin Stapley, the officer learns, is a man from San Diego who was reported missing by his family. Well, that's a red flag then. Now you're looking at the vehicle this air quotes. Robin Stapley is driving a Honda Prelude. This Honda Prelude vehicle is registered to a one Paul Cosner. So now, if you're the officer, you're sitting here going, is this Paul Costner using Robin Stapley's California driver's license for some reason?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Right.

[Nick]

Oh, you know what? Let's check the license plate on this Honda Prelude. The plate comes back registered to yet another person, Lonnie Bond. So you have a driver's license that doesn't look like the man standing in front of you. You have a vehicle that doesn't belong to the driver's license name, and you have a license plate that doesn't belong to the registered name on the vehicle or the driver's license.

[Co-host]

And what law enforcement is going to learn is all three of these individuals have been reported missing.

[Nick]

Have been reported missing. And we're looking in this vehicle and we find a gun with a silencer on it.

[Co-host]

Got him.

[Nick]

Well, he's not allowed to have a silencer. We've talked about suppressors and other episodes and you will know that you have to have a license for those which this individual is not able to provide. The other thing too is you start looking at this Honda Prelude and you see a bullet hole in the car's roof, along with blood spatter, a stun gun, and several unspent bullets. Under the passenger seat, they find a utility bill that was in the name of Leonard Lake's ex wife, Clair Lynn Blas. Which this is very helpful because this provides an. An address. Because think about this situation. If you're law enforcement at this point, you've picked up this guy, you have no clue who he is. You've got a whole bunch of leads because he has items on his person that connect him to three different missing males. But in a sense, you have no idea who this guy is.

[Co-host]

Yeah. Or where are these three missing people. And so when you get this, when you see this bill and it gives you this address to this, this remote cabin, you go, okay, well, we need to go look into this remote cabin.

[Nick]

But first we're going to take this guy back to headquarters to figure out who the hell he is. Well, while there, Leonard Lake, the man that we know to be Leonard Lake, says that he's willing to talk, willing to cooperate with police. He asked for a pencil and some paper. He then pens a letter to someone, which we will later find out is to this Clairlin Beloz. While there's no one in the room with him, he takes a cyanide capsule he's found unresponsive in the room and rushed off to the nearby Kaiser Hospital. It takes a couple of days, but Leonard Lake passes away. He dies at the hospital. He's pronounced dead on June 6th. While he's out and while he's in the hospital, unresponsive, of course, like the captain said, police are going to go out to this address that they find on this utility bill. There they find what has been referred to from many different sources as a sea of evidence of murder, kidnapping and torture that took place at this location. In fact, the newspapers, a lot of the newspapers were calling this a death camp. They have all these missing people. They've already tied this individual to this property, and they have three missing persons tied to this Individual, they're looking and sorting for evidence to figure out, are these people still alive? If they are, where are they? And if they're not, where are they?

[Co-host]

Well, and also, like you said, that that letter that he wrote before he committed suicide basically was a suicide note. But obviously in that note, it doesn't leave us a bunch of information or evidence to tell law enforcement what happened to these individuals. But they're going to find so much stuff on this property. Like you said before, they're going to end up finding this journal. And that journal is going to basically read like a playbook of the crimes that Leonard and Charles committed.

[Nick]

And as we said, a sea of evidence that sums it up nicely. But back to the cyanide. So of course they're going to reach out this Clairlin Bellas. And she tells law enforcement that she's not surprised that Leonard Lake took his own life, that he had told her on multiple occasions if he was ever in a situation with law enforcement that he couldn't get out of, that he was going to be sent off to prison, he would kill himself. He had told her the same if there were an apocalyptic type event where he could not defend himself or didn't think he had a chance of survival, that he would take his own life. He was going to go out on his terms.

[Co-host]

Well, and he told her, I carry around cyanide, so if something happens, I'm going to pop this pill and down I go.

[Nick]

And the way that he did this at the police headquarters was he had this pill or pills sewn into the collar of his shirt so you can pat this guy down. Yeah, it would be easy to miss a pill. You could pull out his pockets, empty his pockets and still not find his. Plan B, if you will. Let's go through some of the items of note, more notable items that were found at this property. Mind you, Charles Ng is still gone at this point.

[Co-host]

Yeah, he's on the run.

[Nick]

He's on the run. What they find at the, again, the papers were calling it a death camp. They found a bunch of evidence that, that told them that Leonard Lake stole his brother's identity. He opened up a PO box in his brother's name and Donald Lake's name, and he was cashing Donald Lake's disability checks.

[Co-host]

So there's one missing person and one crime that we can go, okay, it looks like Leonard is responsible for this. Plus law enforcement, the easy evidence is when they pull up to the property all these vehicles that belong to these missing individuals.

[Nick]

They also found evidence that told Them that Leonard Lake also stole Charles Gunner, his best friend, his supposed best friend's identity, and was cashing his government checks as well. Then we have the bunker or the shed right behind the dwelling there. This was referred to by both police and the newspapers as the dungeon. And inside this structure, detectives found posted on a wall a list of typewritten rules for female captives to follow. They also found pictures of 21 women, some of them nude. I do want to point out here that of the 21 women, they don't think that all of the 21 women were murder victims, but they definitely believe that some, if not many of them were some of those women, some of the pictures and the women in these pictures have been identified as murder victims.

[Co-host]

And if you look at photos, you know, there's actually quite a bit of photos of this facility. I don't even know what you want to call it. I mean, death bunker.

[Nick]

I think dungeon. I think the papers and the police nailed it when they were calling it the dungeon.

[Co-host]

Yeah, because there was, you know, there was a room that was. There was basically a hidden door to get to the room. And it was basically a holding cell. And even had this little tiny mirror, but is a one way mirror. So basically they could monitor whoever they had in that room. They could monitor them in multiple ways.

[Nick]

In that same room, there's a small mattress and a bucket that police believe was used as a toilet. They, you know, obviously they're seeing all the obvious signs that this was used to hold women in a cell type environment to keep, to keep them like prisoners.

[Co-host]

Well, like you said, there was a list of rules found in this room as well, basically. So, hey, you got nothing else to do. You can, you can either lay down or take a crap in the bucket or you could read this list of rules.

[Nick]

They would also find a hand drawn treasure map. And this is what led police to finding two buried five gallon buckets. One of these buckets contained envelopes with names and victims identifications. And the other bucket is where they found Leonard Lake's handwritten journals for the years of 1983 and 1984, along with two videotapes documenting the torture of two of the female victims. And in those, on those video tapes, you can hear and see both Charles Ng and Leonard Lake in those videos. They also found some burn sites on the property. The treasure map, of course, is going to spearhead the digging, the excavating of some of the land there. But these burn sites become part of this as well because they're now collecting ashes that have Bones and, like, teeth that didn't burn up and even some fingernails and such that somebody had tried to permanently destroy these bodies, these remains, so that they would never be found. But they're collecting all this evidence from the scene, and they're walking out of there, and they're telling. They're telling the media that we think that there could be as many as. The number most commonly reported is 25 murder victims. Unfortunately, that number's never been confirmed. That's the number that's reported the most often. But I saw several sources that were saying 27 at the time, that they were suspected of 27 murders. And because a lot of this stuff was destroyed, a lot of the remains destroyed, that they. They had a hard time figuring out exactly how many people were killed and kidnaped by these two individuals.

[Co-host]

One of the things that I thought was fascinating as you have some of these law enforcement agents that are going through this property looking for evidence, but they. But they were individuals that worked some of these cases. So you're walking through and you see a bunch of camera equipment, and you're going, hey, remember that family that went missing? And we think that it had something to do with this camera equipment. Well, there's some camera equipment here, and

[Nick]

they found paperwork with the Harvey Dubs name on it, receipts and stuff for that said camera equipment.

[Co-host]

And then, like I said, these vehicles. So once you find out that, well, there's one vehicle stolen from this guy, and he's never been seen again, and here's another vic, here's an. Another vehicle from somebody, and they were reported missing, you start putting two and two together and going, well, that that's another murder victim. Now we just got to try to find their remains somewhere on the property. One of the things that a question for you when I was looking at this is I wonder how many of these were planned victims. I think when they're stealing a car or taking a friend out to the middle of nowhere and stealing their identity, I think those are all planned victims. But I wonder how many people, because they did have land and they did have these rooms, did they have a situation where it's like, hey, come out. Work for us? And did that person find things they're not supposed to find? Or did Leonard and Charles sit them down and explain to them, hey, this is what we're doing. Do you want to be a part of it?

[Nick]

Well, we do know that detectives were very concerned about a possible third suspect being involved. They worked that angle for a long time in this case. We do know that in the end, they are telling us that they do not believe that a third suspect was involved, that it was just these two guys working together. And then we also know, based off of the timeline, that Charles Ng, while he was certainly a part of some of these kidnappings and homicides, he was not involved in the Donald Lake or Charles Gunner homicides.

[Co-host]

No, because he would have been in prison at the time.

[Nick]

Yeah, he was at Leavenworth. So Charles Gunner, strange. You know, they're. They're. They're looking and unfortunately, sifting through the ashes, if you will, on this property, looking for victims. Charles Gunner is somebody that is immediately connected to monster Leonard Lake. However, they can't find any trace of him other than that his identity was stolen in that lake was caching gunners checks. They're searching this property in 1985. And the, the. The searches were extensive. They went on and on because of just the nature of the landscape. You can imagine how long they would have spent there. And you're also not in a great rush at the time because one of your perpetrators is dead. There's no trial for Leonard Lake right now in regards to Charles Gunner. They're searching the property in 1985. His body's not discovered. His body's unearthed. His remains are unearthed in 1992 when somebody else had owned the property and was digging for other purposes. So I think that what we cannot hit home enough in this case is the undetermined number of victims in this case. They don't still to this day, they do not know exactly how many people were murdered by Leonard Lake or by Leonard Lake in unison with. With Charles Ng. What we do know is Charles Ng did. He is eventually caught. It's in July of 85. This guy. And this was a regular behavior of ings before the two got busted in San Francisco. He. He was a habitual shoplifter. He had received warnings from stores. He had been received a slap on the wrist at least once before they got busted. But he's. He's attempting to steal items while on the run up in Canada. So he's arrested up in Canada. That law enforcement, they're in communication now with the authorities in California who they're like, look, good thing you caught this shoplifter because he's also a suspected serial murderer. And we have a lot of evidence suggesting that he's killed multiple people. There becomes this battle, and I don't want to go through. I don't want to get into the weeds too much on this here, captain, because it's a long Drawn out and even detailed. It's a laborious process to go through this portion of the story.

[Co-host]

And frankly, that's a nice word, laborious.

[Nick]

It wouldn't be. It would not hold the attention of the listeners because it certainly did not hold my attention. We get this squabble over extradition here where the United States and the authorities in California, like, you need to send this dude to us so we can try him for murders. And, oh, by the way, that's capital punishment. We are going to. The death penalty is on the table for this guy and rightfully so. Again, this is not a pro or a pro or negative death penalty show. But if you have it in your state, this guy, and they did have it, this guy's certainly deserving of it if he is, in fact guilty of all of these atrocities. So Canada at the time is saying, well, we're not going to send him back to you just so you can kill him. We don't believe in that. So there's this squabble for a period of time over whether they would even send him back.

[Co-host]

Thanks, Canada.

[Nick]

This is the way that I heard it, like 20 years ago. So I'm going to pull a. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. So whether this is the truth or not, this is how I'm going to report it, because this is the truth as I know it to be. In the book Die for Me by Don Lassen, or basically what they say is the United States at some point gets tired of fighting with Canada to get this guy back. And they say, you know what? If you really want him that bad and if you really want to spare this monster's life, cool, you can have him and the charges that you picked him up on there. He will get out eventually. And. And since you want him so bad, you'll have to let him live there. Now, you don't really want that, do you? With, with. Here's the evidence that we have against this guy as being a multiple murderer. Do you really want him running around on your streets up there? And so eventually Canada says, yeah, I think you're right, you can have him back. You guys figure out what to do with him. He ends up in trial. He doesn't go to trial until the 90s. And in fact, I believe it was something ridiculous, like 12 or 14 years later at one time, Charles Ng. The prosecution of Charles Ng was the most expensive prosecution in the history of the state of California. It was millions of dollars, like something of upwards of $20 million to convict this guy. One thing that everybody remains very angry about to this day, and rightfully so. Clairlin Bellas was given immunity for her cooperation in helping to prosecute Charles Ng. Her name and identity are all over the place at that property. In fact, two of the guns that were used or believed used to murder some of these victims were registered to Clairlin Balas. To this day, Captain, And I think that authorities felt like their hands. Their hand was forced a little bit here to grant her immunity and to need her to work with them. I'm not convinced, using hindsight, I'm not convinced that they absolutely needed her or to grant her that sweetheart deal. I'm also not convinced that she was fully aware of what was going on. But there are some. There are some markers here, right? The. The guns that were registered in her name, she already knew. By her own admission to law enforcement, she was aware that Leonard Lake was committing crimes. She claims she was unaware that he was committing murder and kidnapping. But they also found her name endorsing some of those checks that were coming in from identities that he stole. Donald Lake's identity, Charles Gunner's identity. Unfortunately, we have a death penalty case here. Charles Ng is finally convicted. It takes over a decade. It's 1999 before he's on trial. These guys, their crime spree ended in 1985. 14 years to put this man behind prison and then an immunity deal given to Clair Lynn Balaz. Here we sit today, Charles Ng, still incarcerated at San Quentin State Prison. And we have Clair Lynn Balaz, who nobody knows her level of involvement in a case where we could be talking about as many as 27 people murdered.

[Co-host]

But some of the evidence we have, as far as the journals go, where, as far as the videos go, we don't have any evidence that I'm aware of that directly connects her to any of these murders. And so to those tapes. I mean, could you imagine being law enforcement and having to watch those tapes to try to collect more evidence?

[Nick]

Yeah, the. The tapes are. Are rather disturbing. And I hesitate. And. And I don't really want to go into describing what was seen on these videotapes.

[Co-host]

Right.

[Nick]

We do know that they were used as evidence. Of course, they would be used as evidence against Charles Ang, as he spotted in. He's seen in these videotapes. And they are. I'm trying to find a way to put this in its simplest form.

[Co-host]

When the public hears about these tapes, I think that's what really drew attention to this case. I think the fascinating thing about this case is the way in which they were living the way in which these two criminal minds were intertwined. And it seemed like they were enabling each other. And then I think it's also fascinating that one of them had an addiction of, you know, just simple shoplifting, and that was the downfall and what got them to be ultimately caught for crimes way more heinous than shoplifting.

[Nick]

Well, and there is some indicators that Charles Ng and Leonard Lake were not into the same things, even though that they committed a lot of the same crimes.

[Co-host]

Right.

[Nick]

Like when we described the two of them at the beginning, it's. Charles Ng was. He was not above committing murder, but his type of murder would have been more in the heat of the moment, blaze of glory type stuff where he's going in with a group of men and violently robbing a bank or maybe forced to shoot his way out of a situation when he's attempting to steal weapons or a large amount of weapons. In fact, we do know that there. That these two were different when they first met and even when they joined back up in 84. Based off of Leonard Lake's journal entries, he does state on more than one occasion in these journals that Charles Ng does not. Again, he's calling him Charlie in the Right in the notebooks. But he does say that Charlie doesn't seem to be into my plan. These journal entries, most of them are not very descriptive. In fact, they're rather cryptic and vague. And I think they were cryptic and vague for a reason. That's about the most that we get from Lake as far as whether Charles Ng was ready to do this out of the gate or not. Was that Charlie seems to not like my plan or not want to go along with my plan.

[Co-host]

Yeah. You wonder also if ultimately, would Leonard. Would Leonard Lake take out Charlie? And there's no doubt in my mind that he would wonder.

[Nick]

I actually don't want. I think he. He absolutely would have taken out.

[Co-host]

But also, I think it's very fascinating because Leonard Lake was living in a fantasy world of the novel the Collector. And Charles was almost living out any, you know, action movie, bad guy role, you know, Die Hard. That's what he was living out. In their mind, they're both living in these fantasy worlds. And I think, again, but because of these tapes, these horrible tapes that were found, that's what drew the public's attention. Because I think the fascination for wanting to see these or to. Or when you. When there's crimes that we have audio of that people want to hear those or see those things. It's because it's all a story. All these crime cases are just a story. And there's. There's normally no visual represent, representation of the crime. Does that make any sense? So I think the fact that there is, and that if. If a dark, twisted mind wanted to see these, that they probably could find them. And, and that makes these crimes even more real and not just a story.

[Nick]

Well, and I. Look, I. I don't want to. I don't want anybody to think that we're hiding the ball here, that we're. That we're sweeping any of this under the rug. Yes, those videotapes are a part of the story. It's just a part of the story I'm not comfortable reviewing. I mean, reviewing audibly here for everybody to hear. I have reviewed the information that is readily available about those videotapes. And what is readily available, if one were to go looking hard enough and they can find it, are the transcripts. They have transcribed all of the audio from those videotapes.

[Co-host]

Right.

[Nick]

I've reviewed that multiple times. I don't feel great talking about it here. It doesn't do anything for our story or for the purpose of locking anybody up or finding the bad guy. What it does, if anybody is curious, is confirms 100% because Charles Ng's trial was more drawn out than I believe that it needed to be. So when you have that type of situation that is suggestive to me that there are persons out there that thought, well, maybe Charles Ng was. Was some kind of victim himself, that he was just another pawn in Leonard Lake's big chess game of murder and in sex slaves and kidnapping.

[Co-host]

Right.

[Nick]

But what those tapes confirm is, no, he was willing. He did go along. He is speaking to the victim. He too is threatening the victim. Is he being subservient to Leonard Lake? Yeah. Yeah, he is. Leonard Lake was clearly the leader as far as those transcripts go in the conversations that are had on those videotapes. But just like the presiding judge in Charles Ng's case and at his trial, mind you, he is sentenced. Was sentenced to death. The presiding judge at Charles Ng's trial said, quote, Mr. Ng was not under any duress, nor does the evidence support that he was under the domination of Leonard Lake. Meaning that the judge, after reviewing everything, was 100% convinced that in the 11 homicides that Charles Ng was convicted of.

[Co-host]

Right.

[Nick]

That he did this willingly.

[Captain]

If you need more True Crime Garage for your earballs, make sure you subscribe on Apple podcast or sign up on Patreon Colonel, do we have any recommended reading for the beautiful listener.

[Nick]

You know we rarely do this Captain, but I am happy to do it. Today we are recommending a fictional book titled A Letter From Sherry by Cheryl Grant. A Letter from Sherry is a story inspired by California serial killer murders executed by Charles Ng and Leonard Lake. Cheryl Grant was adopted at a very young age and she grew up believing that her biological mother was murdered by her biological father when she was a teenager. She began searching for answers as an adult. Her biological aunt found her and confirmed that her mother, Sherry Otoro, had been a victim of The Calaveras County, California killers Charles Ng and Leonard Lake. Back in 1985. She reached out to the retired detective on the case and he sent her an 11 page letter written by her mother while she was being held against her will by Lake and NG. That 11 page letter, addressed to no one, simply left there hoping that someone would find it found its way somehow to Cheryl. That letter answered almost every question that Cheryl had about who her mother was, why Cheryl was put up for adoption, and why her mother was no longer around. I just finished this book earlier this week and it's a great read. It's powerful, with a lot of emotion and it was hard to put down. So go and check out A Letter from Sherry by Cheryl Grant. You can find that great recommendation and many more, including podcasts and documentaries on our recommended page on our website truecrimegarage.com

[Captain]

yeah, and while you're at truecrimegarage.com sign up on the mailing list until next week.

[Nick]

Be good, be kind, and don't litter.

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