← True Crime Garage
True Crime Garage
West Memphis 3 /// A Harvest of Innocence /// Part 1
00:57:14
West Memphis 3 /// A Harvest of Innocence Part 1 of 2 www.TrueCrimeGarage.com After taking a listen once again to our West Memphis 3 case coverage from 2016 we have decided to revisit the case and get some additional thoughts from a perspective not yet heard on TCG. Today we welcomed in Dan Stidham, the Defense Attorney for Jesse Misskelley Jr. Mr. Stidham represented Jesse for many years and at some points was assisting Jason Baldwin as well. He has since gone on to become a highly respected Judge in Arkansas. While he is not a fan of the Alford plea, he remains one of the key figures in this case that helped the West Memphis 3 to finally get released from prison after serving 18 years. This week’s recommended reading is - A Harvest of Innocence; the untold story of the West Memphis Three murder case by Dan Stidham Follow True Crime Garage on X @TrueCrimeGarage / Follow Nic on X @TCGNIC / Follow The Captain on X @TCGCaptain Listen to True Crime Garage Off The Record...
Loading summary
Transcript94 lines
- [00:00]
Podcast Host
Picture this. It's the end of a long week. You're unwinding in the tub, listening to your favorite true crime podcast and then chronic hives come back again in the middle of the episode. What a wet blanket looks like another spell of itchy, swollen, red or skin colored hives. If you have chronic spontaneous urticaria or csu, there may be a different treatment option. Worried about your chronic hives interrupting our next episode? Learn more@treatmyhives.com Garage Join me, Cyndi Lauper
- [00:40]
Dan Stidham
with Chef Michelle Bernstein and Dr. Panico
- [00:44]
Podcast Host
to talk about psoriasis and psoriatic arthritis,
- [00:48]
Dan Stidham
the potential connection and risk of developing permanent joint damage. Cosentic Secukinumab is prescribed for adults with moderate to severe plaque psoriasis 300 milligram dose and adults with active psoriatic arthritis 150 milligrams dose. Don't use if you're allergic to Cosentyx. Before starting, get checked for tuberculosis. An increased risk of infections and lowered ability to fight them may occur like tuberculosis or other serious bacterial, fungal or viral infections. Some were fatal. Tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms like fevers, sweats, chills, muscle aches or cough had a vaccine or planned to, or if inflammatory bowel disease symptoms develop or worsen serious allergic reactions and severe eczema like skin reactions may occur. Learn more at 1-844-cosentics or cosentix.com Cindy. West memphis 3 west memphis 3. Damien echols and jason baldwin jesse Ms. Kelly who west memphis 3.
- [01:59]
Podcast Host
They were just 8 years old. Stephen Branch, Michael Moore and Christopher Myers found murdered hog tied and naked in a drainage ditch in West Memphis.
- [02:09]
Dan Stidham
West Memphis 3.
- [02:17]
Podcast Host
The state stands behind the conviction I am very excited for this upcoming conversation. This evening I am joined in the garage by a one Dan Stidham, a man who has been an attorney, currently a judge, a true crime author on a case that he worked for most of his life and a case that many people out there listening know very well. That's The West Memphis Three case. The case from Arkansas, 1993. Dan Mr. Stidham, welcome to the show.
- [02:54]
Dan Stidham
Thank you. I'm glad to be here. It's an honor.
- [02:57]
Podcast Host
Would you tell us a little bit about your journey? You know, just your life's journey from being a young man becoming an attorney and now a judge?
- [03:07]
Dan Stidham
Sure. I was born in Chicago, wanted to be a lawyer my entire life, according to my mother. I used to stand on tree stumps in the yard and and give closing arguments to juries. I Guess you'd have to rely on my mom for her credibility, but that's what she says anyway. I've always wanted to be a criminal lawyer. I had no interest in and anything else, and that's why I became a judge, is because 99% of what I do as a judge is, involves criminal law. So I feel like I'm in where I'm supposed to be.
- [03:49]
Podcast Host
Did you always want to represent defendants or did you ever see yourself as maybe on the other side as a prosecutor?
- [03:57]
Dan Stidham
No, I've always felt like I belonged in the defense category and, and I'm not sure where that comes from. I've been told that I have a savior complex by some people and I'm not sure exactly what that means, but I just feel strongly about the Constitution and not the most recent interpretations of it, but the original, the fourth Amendment and the fifth Amendment and the sixth Amendment. And it's very important to me that people have, and they deserve a zealous defense, despite how gruesome the case may be or how simple it may be. It's very important to me. I became a public defender because of that and I thought it was a great way to get experience as a young lawyer after saying what everybody says after they graduate from law school. I'm never going back to my hometown again except to visit my parents. And naturally I ended up right back in Perigord, Arkansas. So here I am, still looking back on this. I see my life as having two segments. One that was normal and one that became, I'd hate to use the word abnormal, but the other end of the stick, sort of. Because on May 7, I believe it was 1993, my life changed forever and I had no idea what I was getting involved in or how long it would take or that I would end up writing a book about it.
- [05:35]
Podcast Host
That's a great question. So why the book now? The book came out late last year. It's a fantastic, it's a fascinating read. But why do you choose to break what's referred to as your self imposed silence after all these years?
- [05:51]
Dan Stidham
That is a very good question and it's got a pretty simple answer. Number one, in 2008, when I became a full time judge and was no longer able to work on the case, I became a witness in the case with the issue being ineffective assistance of counsel. And in my book I'm very candid about, this was my first jury trial and most people are shocked by that. A triple homicide of 38 year olds, not exactly a perfect fit for your first jury trial. It's like going to the super bowl in your rookie year. I expected fully when I accepted the case, thought my wife, or now ex wife Kim, would talk me out of it. But she encouraged me, which surprised me. So I took it, even though my father, who had admonished me not to. I was 30 years old, and I thought it was a good idea. So I did it. I don't have any regrets. It's been a long, hard run, and I've suffered from it. Lost my marriage because of it. It affected my children, affected my health, stole my faith, which has now been restored. It was a very, very rough trip. And I think, as I said in the book, I was on a long journey. I didn't have time to pack because things were happening so quickly. There's that line in my life the first 30 years, and now I'm in my 61st year. And I realized back on March 3rd, when I turned 61, that I was an old person all of a sudden. So I'm older than dirt. And I didn't realize that at 60, but the day I woke up 61, everything hurt. Everything. My knees hurt, my back hurt. And so I guess it's official. I'm old. That part I can't change. So it is what it is.
- [07:46]
Podcast Host
The title of the book is A Harvest of Innocence. What does that phrase mean to you?
- [07:55]
Dan Stidham
Well, there's no winners in this case, first, because of the way that it unfolded and the treachery that was involved in obtaining the conviction in the first place. There were things such as jury misconduct, prosecutorial misconduct, police misconduct, which is imputed to the prosecutor, which I firmly believe, and I speak of it freely in the book. But to get back to your original question, the second prong, the Alford plea was not my doing. I was a witness in my own ineffective assistance to counsel hearing, which wasn't a pleasant thing to do, but it was. It was something that I had to do, of course, and I told the truth, which most lawyers don't. They always say it was trial strategy. That's why I did it this way. They never admit that they did anything wrong because their ego won't permit it. But I don't have an ego. I have an absolute obligation and duty to my client. And so I told the truth. And I was very unprepared to have this be my first jury trial. It violated the American Bar association standards that were in place at the time, even though I thought it was going to be for plea, simply getting my client ready to testify against the other two, it didn't turn out that way and ended up being a jury trial. So I had been involved in a couple capital murder cases in law school. Conspiracy to commit capital murder case, capital murder case, as a public defender, or I should say an apprentice to the public defender, our county public defender at the time. So, I mean, I had some experience, but it wasn't the experience that you need to conduct a jury trial. Everybody tells me I did a wonderful job. And despite how sure I am that it really must have hurt Judge Burnett, sadly, to proclaim me as the best lawyer that ever walked the planet, the truth of the matter is I wasn't ready for this task, and I didn't pull any punches. I criticized everybody for their mistakes in the book, including my own. It is what it is. And my fear in life, my greatest fear in life, was I didn't know the Alford plea was happening until the night before I got a courtesy phone call from the prosecutor. So I had no idea why it was happening, because during the Rule 37 hearing, we had completely and totally destroyed the state's case. I mean, it made them look like idiots, and that's a tough word, but it's the truth that Ms. Kelly's confession made absolutely no sense. There's no such thing as a satanic ritual homicide, despite the fact that some people go to seminars in 2024 to learn about satanic ritual crimes. There's just. It's a fairy tale. I just don't hold back. And. And. But the Alford plea itself is. Is a oxymoron. As my former colleague, the late Dennis Reardon from San Francisco, who was Damien's attorney, one said of his he had east coast attorneys and west coast attorneys. That's how Dennis Reardon, who passed away a couple of years ago, he described it as an oxymoron. And it is, because I don't let people in my courtroom plead guilty to something they didn't do. So why are we doing this? Even though we're maintaining our innocence, it's still going to be a conviction in the light of the law. So why are we doing this when we're going to get a new trial and we're going to win straight up in the courtroom, which has been my dream for many, many years, most of my adult life, as he pointed out. I was shocked and I didn't understand it. It was good for Damien because he'd been on death row for 18 years and 78 days, and he was ready to get out of there. And I don't blame him. And it was good for Jesse Misskelley because he's intellectually challenged. And whether he has a felony conviction or not, it's not going to affect the outcome of. Because his disability is permanent. There's no cure for it. It's not going to help him get a job. It's not going to help him in life or create any problems for him in life. But Jason Baldwin was the one who took it on the chin and basically sacrificed himself and his demand for justice and to be declared innocent, which was my dream as well. Part of the Alford plea was that all three defendants who maintain their innocence had to stay out of trouble for 10 years or they would end up having to serve the rest of their terms, which I cannot remember the number of years it's been. 12 years ago, had they committed another crime, which they never did, then they would have had to go back to prison. So I wanted to wait 10 years before I came out with my book because I did not want to piss anybody off that would. That would create a problem for these three young men whose lives had been destroyed just for the sake of having somebody to blame it on, having a scapegoat. And I wanted to get past that 10 year period. And so during that 10 year period, I started writing. And I had been writing for a number of years, even before finally I came to terms with what it cost me and what it cost me selfishly was the right to walk back into that courtroom and win a case that I should have won at trial and I should have won on direct appeal to the Arkansas Supreme Court. We were going to win after the Rule 37 hearing. So I'm sitting here wondering, why are we doing this? But at the time, it seemed like a win for, at least for my client and Damien. But Jason is the one who suffered the most. And it took me a while to be able to talk about some of these deep, dark things that I had to endure. And getting back to your original question, the harvest or a harvest of innocence, there's two reasons for that. One, there was a journalist who, I don't know if he still has a column with the largest newspaper in Arkansas, the Democrat Gazette or not, but he wrote an article and that was the title of the article. And essentially he said, I don't know what they proved, but the only thing I know for sure is, is that this was. Can't remember his exact words. A cruel harvest of innocence or a terrible harvest of innocence. And so that just kind of stuck in my mind and and when I was exploring ideas for the title of the book, that's what I came up with. And when I contacted my co author and we began an artist writing the book in 2014, he hated the title because he couldn't understand it, because he didn't. He was one of the few people on the planet that didn't know anything about the West Memphis case. So I had to bring him up to speed, which was, of course, a difficult task to do. And after we got near the end, he said, I like the title because it rings true. This was actually. Philip Martin, who wrote the article, called it the Evil Harvest of Innocence. But I didn't want the book to sound like a, you know, some kind of. What is the word? I'm looking for something that wasn't true crime, something that was, you know, I didn't want to make it into a monster movie, I guess what I'm trying to say.
- [15:31]
Podcast Host
Yeah, and I mean, the case itself, there's already enough evil in it. Yeah, we've. We've been through that part of it, certainly. Now I'm glad that you referred to it as an oxymoron, because that's exactly as I saw it. And I, I remember all those years ago when the news broke, it was like during the week at some point, and I was meeting a friend of mine for lunch, and I said to him, you said the person you just mentioned was one of the few people on the planet that had never heard of the West Memphis Three case. Well, my, My friend that I was meeting for lunch that day knew almost nothing about it as well. And I said, and I was angry. And I said, he goes, what are you so angry about? I said, well, this case. And he goes, I don't know nothing about the case, Nick, but what is, what is this Alfred plea thing? And I said, look, I said, I don't know much about it either. I said, but here's my understanding of it, that if you, if you beg and plea that you are innocent, they will keep you locked up in prison for 18 years. But. But if you tell them that you're guilty and yeah, I did it, they'll let you go free. Like, that's. That was my inter. My. My novice interpretation of it in. In Anger, that moment.
- [16:38]
Dan Stidham
There. There's a very compelling chapter in the book about me trying to gain access to my client before the plea and the hoops I had to jump through to be able to do that. And I don't want to give anything away, but I didn't realize it at the time, but they thought that I was there to stop the Alford plea. And like I said at the time, I thought it was a win because my client was going home. I promised him after he was convicted that I would never give up until he got to go home and be with his dad. And I was keeping my promise. So I thought, this is good. The world's been lifted off my shoulder. I can write my book when it's time. But it's more complicated than that, and it's very complicated. And the younger the audience that I speak to, the harder it is to explain because they don't understand. And to give you an example, someone in my court just the other day said, well, I'm not guilty, but I'm going to plead guilty just to get this over with. And I said, no, you're not. I'll see you in July for trial. We're gonna have a trial because I gotta be able to sleep tonight. Either did it or you didn't. And if you didn't, I'll acquit you. And if you did, then I'll set your punishment. We don't do Alford, please in my courtroom, because I don't believe in them. So it took me literally eight of those 10 years before we published to really dig down deep enough to understand A, why B, how did it happen? Whose idea was it? And who came up with the idea? Because, Nick, I'd always imagined myself all these years, during these 18 years and 78 days of being Russell Crowe, walking into the Coliseum with a large sword, cutting the heads off my enemies, and I was really looking forward to that. And all of a sudden they pull the rug out from under me. I was not exonerated. So my innocence was harvested. My innocence was harvested because of what it did to my family and my marriage and my life. But that pales in comparison, obviously, to the innocence that was harvest from the 38 year olds, their parents and grandparents and family and siblings. And it's horrible. I lost a child myself a couple of years ago. It'll be three years in October, an adult child. And I just got a phone call one day and says, you, son's dead. And so suddenly I'm in the club, and it's a club you don't want to be in. And so I actually went back and poured the rough draft of the book through that filter of being the parent of a deceased child. And I think it helped the tone and particularly the ending of the book. And then also, my wife lost her second born, who was 39 years old. It changed things. You look through it through a different set of glasses than you did before. And also it harvested the innocence of the West Memphis three and their parents and their families. I used to have nightmares of going to jail for something I didn't do. And of course I knew why I was having the nightmares. But it didn't make it any more pleasant. It was tough. Didn't deal with the stress appropriately of losing a child. So I understand better their situation. Two of the three sets of parents ended up on our team at the end, which was certainly feathering our cap. Why would we give up a case that we were going to win? That's been the thing that's been bugging me for the last 10 years. I decided, I say I decided. Tom McCarthy, my co author, who eventually fell in love with the title, he and I agreed to, to tell the story differently than it's ever been told. There's two reasons for that, because number one, it's never been told with this sort of narrative. And second, it's the truth. It's the truth that's never been told. So people who choose to go out and buy Harvest of Innocence and read it, they're going to be shocked, especially if they've kept up with the case over the years or they're newbies who weren't even born yet. That's our highest audience on Facebook is 18 to 30 year olds who weren't even born yet when. When this happened. So everybody says the, the O.J. trial was the trial of the century. And I disagree. Of course, I'm a little bit biased. This case has never, ever been out of the headlines for the last 31 years.
- [21:21]
Podcast Host
Yeah. And I don't know that it's. That it goes away, unfortunately.
- [21:26]
Dan Stidham
No, I agree. I agree completely. And there's so many things similar to what happened in Salem, Massachusetts. And I mean, it happened almost exactly a hundred years apart. And here we are still burning witches at the stake in 1993, and we continue to do that because people can't wrap their minds around what a false confession is. And that was my biggest enemy besides the judge and the prosecutor themselves, who. Prosecutors are all about winning. Good prosecutor is interested in justice, but. Right. But a bad prosecutor is winning at all costs. I guess that's why I've always been a defense attorney. And, you know, I was afraid when I ran for judge that people were going to be afraid of former public defender being a judge. They thought I was going to turn everybody loose. But I call them as I see them just like an umpire in a ball game. That's a bad metaphor, I suppose, but. But that's the truth. I'm glad I waited those 10 years. Not just for the sake of the West Memphis Three, but I needed that 10 years to let all this soak in and read the transcripts of the Rule 37 hearings, which I was excluded from because I was a witness and was not allowed to be in the courtroom. I knew, you know, in a basic format because of the. They provided affidavits of what the witnesses were going to testify to. But there were things that shocked me in those transcripts that made me start asking questions and that I wanted the answer to, but nobody wanted to talk about it, right? It's like, hey, we. We got out of this with and saved face. We got off the boat before it sunk. Back to the narrative that we chose for the book we chose. The Titanic is the best example on the Titanic. The movie starts out with recovery vessel or the vessel that was sending the sub down to the wreck for the first time and one of the very few survivors left at the time. And then the story morphed into her telling her story, sort of the background which was compelling. I thought that's what we need to do. And it took me a while to convince Tom of that. But I didn't want Mara's book, which was outstanding and Devil's not. And I keep expecting my thank you card from her because she's selling a lot of books these days because of my book. My book kind of comes in and finishes the story and all those things that I couldn't tell mar about or. And all the things that I couldn't tell the documentarians about. You know, I'm sure they're not happy with me because you don't want to call the 800 pound gorilla names or poke him with a stick and expect them to later rule in your favor on a case that you've sworn to overturn. And so I couldn't write the book. I couldn't tell documentarians about what I knew because I had to depend on the Arkansas Supreme Court to do the right thing. And ultimately they did. And it wasn't a coincidence that Judge Burnett was finally off the case and happened months later that they overturned his decision and sent it back for consideration for a new trial, which we were going to get not just because of my inexperience as a lawyer in 1993 and 1994 when the trial was held, but because Judge Burnett had committed some ethical violations and he should have recused himself from the case but refused. So we were going to win on that issue alone. So I started digging and trying to figure out how this all came about. It took years trying to convince people to talk about it. Some of them wanted to talk about it, but wouldn't for political reasons. Some of them knew why, but wouldn't tell me on the record because they were afraid that they wouldn't be able to work in our bailiwick here in Northeast Arkansas. And I understand that because I I've had the same feelings for years. You know, I wanted to talk about these things, but I thought, I got a job, I need to make a living and feed my kids. So it was time.
- [26:05]
Podcast Host
Groons survives every chaotic stretch because it's literally one daily pack of gummies. No bottles to track, no powders to mix. Just done. Backed by over 35,000 research publications, Grooms are a convenient, comprehensive formula in one delicious daily pack of gummy bears. This isn't a multivitamin, a greens gummy or a prebiotic. It's all of those things and then some at a fraction of the price. Groons have more than 20 vitamins and minerals and 60 ingredients which include nutrient dense and whole foods. Plus their daily pack of gummies has 6 grams of prebiotic fiber, which is three times the amount of dietary fiber compared to the leading greens powders and more than two cups of broccoli. They're vegan, nut free, gluten free and dairy free with no artificial colors or flavors. And bonus, they taste great. Save up to 52% off with code GARAGEROONSCO. That's code Garage at G R u n s.co so many people are focused on where their money is today. Acorns is the financial wellness app that cares about where your money is going tomorrow. And with the Acorns potential screen you can find out what your money is capable of. Acorns is easy. You can sign up in minutes and start automatically investing your spare money even if all you've got is spare change. Sign up now and Acorns will boost your new account with a $5 bonus investment. Join the over 14 million all time customers who have already saved and invested over $27 billion with Acorns. Head to acorns.com garage or download the Acorns app to get started. Paid non client endorsement compensation provides incentive to positively promote acorns. Tier 2 compensation provided potential subject to various factors such as customers accounts, age and investment settings does not include Acorns fees. Results do not predict or represent the performance of any ACORNS portfolio. Investment results will vary. Investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC Registered Investment Advisor. View Important disclosures@acorns.com Garage One thing about summer is that everything just feels easy. It's the season for comfortable go anywhere pieces that make getting dressed simple. That's what makes Quince such a great fit for the season. They focus on well made essentials that you'll actually live in all summer long. Quince's 100% European linen pants and shirts are breathable, easy to throw on and the summer upgrade your rotation needs. And their tees are soft enough to live in all day. And the lightweight cotton sweaters are exactly what you want when summer nights cool down. I love Quince. I love shopping@quints.com for all of my clothing needs. It's how I fill my wardrobe and my closet. And I didn't make up the statement that their tees are soft enough to live in all day. They absolutely are. I love their tees. I love their socks. Especially for summertime. Tees from Quince can live in all day long. What does that mean? I wear them to the pool. I wear them when I go out to the restaurants and I have several that I've reserved as pajama tops because they are that comfortable, they are that breathable and they are super soft. They make you want to relax. The clothing on Quince.com is super high quality with great looks, great fashion and very affordable. Plus the checkout and shipping experience is always a good one. Make your summer wardrobe easier. Go to quints.com garage for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com garage for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quints.com garage picture this. It's the end of a long week. You're unwinding in the tub, listening to your favorite true crime podcast and then chronic hives come back again in the middle of the episode. What a wet blanket looks like another spell of itchy, swollen red or skin colored hives. If you have chronic spontaneous urticaria or csu, there may be a different treatment option. Worried about your chronic hives interrupting our next episode? Learn more@treatmyhives.com Garage. At the same time though too. I mean it's a, it's a conflict of interest. And if you would have went down that road, I mean you have the fiduciary duty to Keep your client's best interest at, at heart and mind at all times.
- [31:43]
Dan Stidham
And that was my guiding light through throughout and it.
- [31:46]
Podcast Host
And had you gone down that road, you would have been no better than the prosecutor who was just looking for a win. And, and Burnett, who decided that this was his, his case and this was good and wanted things his way. And so I applaud you for doing that.
- [32:00]
Dan Stidham
Burnett was a prosecutor before he was a circuit judge, but he never forgot he was a prosecutor. One of the legends I learned as of early on is I don't know if it's true, if it was a myth or what it was, but it certainly circulated prolifically, was that one time a prominent lawyer from Jonesboro, during a jury trial in a criminal case, said, judge, why don't you and the prosecutors wear jerseys with your names on the back so there won't be any confusion on the part of the jury that you're on the same team. And that's pretty much the way it was throughout our trial as well.
- [32:38]
Podcast Host
I'm glad that you mentioned Mara Leverett's book the Devil's not, because I was telling somebody the other day that it's the, the. It's so sad that this is a true story because her book's almost a perfect book, a perfect crime mystery book. And then there's been no shortage of books to come out about this case over the years, but so many of them are largely opinionated pieces, biased and mythological. Yeah. And then your book comes out. And the reason why I was so excited about your book was knowing that you are an officer of the court, that you would be holding yourself to a, a different standard than those other books that were coming out. And I knew when, when I got the opportunity to read it, that I better keep my eyeballs open and be paying attention at all times because the information in those pages is going to be far superior to that than books that have come out since we self published.
- [33:41]
Dan Stidham
And the reason that we self published is we spent a couple years shopping this thing around publishers and their response was always, this story's been told and several books and four documentaries and a feature film. And one of the things that people don't understand or realize that I didn't feel like I needed to put it in the book, maybe I did. I don't remember. I worked on that thing so many times and read it about million times that sometimes I'm surprised when someone asks me about paid such and such. And I said, oh, well, yeah, I did say that, didn't I? But. But I actually turned down potentially $100,000 for not being in Devil's Night as the main character because I didn't want to be a part of a horror flick. And I wanted to retain my life story. Right. So I could write this book. So one of the myths surrounding this case is that I'm a millionaire, that HBO paid me millions of dollars to participate in those documentaries. I'm just the average Joe. I work paycheck to paycheck and hope I got enough money at the end of the month to pay the bills. Which reminds me, today's the third, and my house payment was due on the first. And that. That kind of stuff really gigs me because, I mean, it just. It's ridiculous. I never made no nickel.
- [35:03]
Podcast Host
Yeah.
- [35:04]
Dan Stidham
Other than what the court paid me. And.
- [35:06]
Podcast Host
And they didn't even pay you what they said they were going to pay.
- [35:08]
Dan Stidham
Judge Burnett said, you're going to get paid $40 an hour for, you know, investigation and. And witness preparation and discovery and things of that nature. And then $60 an hour for. In court. And we ended up not only getting was $19 and change, $21.73 per hour, to be exact. I. And we had over 2000 hours in the case. More. Almost twice as much as some of the other lawyers, legal teams. And we also received the least amount of all three legal teams.
- [35:49]
Podcast Host
I feel like that was out of spite.
- [35:50]
Dan Stidham
Oh, it was. I mean, I agree completely. And I asked Judge Burnett, can you explain to me how you came to these calculations? And he refused to answer the question.
- [35:59]
Podcast Host
Math is not his strong suit. But, you know, and it's funny because, you know, maybe not. Not so funny, but people see people on TV and they just make this assumption that that equals a lot of money. And I've. I've been fortunate enough to be a part of a few different documentaries myself. And, you know, I was going to say if your paycheck was anything like mine that I received from those documentary, we should just hold hands and feel bad for each other.
- [36:28]
Dan Stidham
Ask my kids about their student loan payments. They'll tell you
- [36:33]
Podcast Host
exactly. Now, this the thing here, though, too, that I feel like this is one of those cases. And to say it's polarizing would be the understatement of the year. But with this case, I think that it gets lost on some people that there are so many victims in this case. But it really, truly starts with the three boys, Chris, Michael and Stevie.
- [36:58]
Dan Stidham
Sure.
- [36:59]
Podcast Host
And I really loved the way that you chose to start your book at the very beginning of the book. I could feel your anger when you said, the killer is alive today. I am sure of it. He had breakfast today. Maybe he checked his mail, went to work, watched TV or took a drive. He's been doing whatever he's been doing since May 5, 1993. Tell us exactly what that, what that means to you and why you chose to. To put those words on that page.
- [37:30]
Dan Stidham
Because I'm still looking for a kill killer. And I'll never stop looking until I take my last breath. And that sounds noble and maybe too noble for some of those people who don't believe the innocence of the West Memphis Three. But I always think about what Mark Tane once. Mark Twain once said, Never argue with a fool because onlookers will not be able to tell the difference. I choose not to engage people who don't have the intellectual capacity to understand science and facts. And if people are upset about that, then they can be upset. Send me an email, knock on my door, whatever. But it's the truth. If you read my book and you don't come to the conclusion that these three kids are innocent, there's something wrong with you. And I know that sounds harsh, but after 30 something years of this, these few people who. Some people refer to them as nons, some people refer to them as the intellectually challenged. I refer to them as just a pain in my ass. I hope I can say that on your podcast. There's no sense arguing with them because you're never going to convince them anyway. So I just avoid them. But you know my. My goals in writing the book, which I have to answer the narrative question a little bit with a little more detail. I didn't go into Damien and. And Jason's trial for a reason because I wasn't their lawyer. Later on, I became a ninja and was Jason's lawyer and in the Bushes. But I wanted to talk about. The book is my story. And sometimes I felt like Forrest Gump. I just kind of happened to be there when everything happened. And the narrative is the same as Abraham Lincoln, the movie and Titanic. We all know that the boat sank and thousands of people died. And we know that President Lincoln got shot in Ford's theater and died. But while we're watching the films, we're all praying and hoping to get up, get out of that bed and be president again. We need you. It was very important for me to not let the record be set with the offered plea that nobody understands. I wanted to tell the goals of my book were to a tell my story, which is the least of my goals for the book. Second, I wanted to explain to everybody what a false confession was and why Jesse Misskelley gave one. And if you actually look at the science involved, then it's easy to see. But if you're not willing to look at it or understand it or even consider it, then you're never going to understand that. But I didn't write it for money. I wrote it because I wanted the truth to be out there. I wanted people to really have a true understanding of what took place, why it took place, and the motives behind it.
- [40:38]
Podcast Host
I think you've earned the right to be as harsh as you want. I mean, you've had to. You've had to watch. You've had to watch so many people be. Be bullied and wronged for so long. And it's not just the. The defendant that you represented and he and the other two young men that were prosecuted as well, but also Chris's, Christopher's family and Michael's family and Stevie's family. And it's. I mean, you've. You've had to have regular interaction with people that were wronged and bullied for so long. I don't know. To be frank with you, I think you're overly polite. I don't. You know, you're. You're incredibly polite for, for having to endure that for so long.
- [41:27]
Dan Stidham
Well, is that stated at the. At the beginning of the book? Even though I've earned the right to be angry, I'm no longer angry because the truth is coming out. And there's an old saying and I can't remember it, and I shouldn't be trying to say something I can't remember. But the truth starts out as something that is people are angry about and won't accept, and then it eventually is accepted as the truth. And that's kind of what took place here. To give you an example of why I think it's funny that some of these people just won't come off of the not believing their innocence. One silly person on Amazon wrote very harsh review that I didn't even talk about a Bible confession, or I didn't talk about this, or I didn't talk about that. I can't even remember. And I addressed each and every one of them.
- [42:28]
Podcast Host
Yeah, the person couldn't have read the book. You absolutely addressed the Bible confession.
- [42:33]
Dan Stidham
The state of Arkansas would love nothing better than this thing to go away. And I would be damned if I would let that happen without a true accounting of the story.
- [42:45]
Podcast Host
They clearly don't. I Mean obviously in any case, the state, Arkansas, Texas, Ohio, what have you, no state would want to compensate, but they don't want to compensate these three men for spending 18 years in prison.
- [43:02]
Dan Stidham
Well, the offer plea will always be there, so that'll that means no compensation, but they deserve exoneration.
- [43:09]
Podcast Host
Yep.
- [43:10]
Dan Stidham
And Jason Baldwin would like to go to law school, but he can't because he's a convicted felon and he could go and get his degree, but they'd never be able to practice law.
- [43:21]
Podcast Host
They probably can't vote, own a firearm. A few different, I would think there would be a few different restrictions on them based on.
- [43:28]
Dan Stidham
He told me not too long ago that he doesn't go out of the country anymore because every time he gets drip searched and cavity searched and, and
- [43:39]
Podcast Host
feels like he's in prison again, he's
- [43:41]
Dan Stidham
staying for the rest of his life. Yeah, and, and which reminds me, I owe him a phone call. He and I've been playing phone tag for the last week or so.
- [43:51]
Podcast Host
Well, and, and he's somebody that I would love to talk to because I know that like, and you put it pointed out so clearly in concisely in your book and I appreciated this because that Alfred play was an all or nothing deal. It was all three of you say yes or all three of you, you know, if one no in the group and we're not doing this thing. And like you said earlier, Jason, he had the least amount to gain and the in and the most to lose by agreeing to that plea deal. And I, I would, I would love to hear it from him. Exactly.
- [44:29]
Dan Stidham
You know, I can't speak for him, but I did interview him and he provided some great information, some of which I wasn't even aware of because I wasn't at his trial, nor did I represent him. And I explained how I did that in the book because his lawyers had abandoned him and I couldn't stand to see him not be on board the train that led hopefully exoneration someday maybe the governor who's going to pardon him is in junior high right now. I don't know. But I may not be around when, when that happens. But eventually it's going to happen because somebody is going to do the right thing.
- [45:06]
Podcast Host
Well, and I want to tell the people out there listening, I've. Here was my takeaway from the book. I've read just about everything I can get my hands on about this case. I've watched listen to just about everything that I could get my hands on about this case over the years. I pick up Your book. And as I said earlier, I was excited because of your position, you being an officer of the court. I knew that it was going to be, I was expecting a different, higher standard and you certainly delivered on that. Like your word. I can take you for your word. Where these other opinion pieces, I can't because I don't know who those people are or their background or how much time they've actually spent looking at the case. So I was excited for the book to come out. And one thing I do when I'm reading these true crime books, just by the nature of my job by hosting the show, is I take notes. And usually I'm only going to write down something if it's new information to me or, excuse me, expanded information to me. And your book. I, I have a note here to mention. 97 notes I made.
- [46:15]
Dan Stidham
Wow.
- [46:16]
Podcast Host
From your book. And so, and I, this is what I, I, I want everybody to understand. This book is for people that think that the West Memphis three are guilty. This is for the people that think that they're innocent. Most importantly, this is for the people that sit on the fence that can't decide are they guilty, Are they innocent? This is, this is the, the eye opener, the way that you delivered it and what you witnessed and the back door dealings and behind the scenes stuff that is explained in your book. Paradise Lost was an entertaining show. Right. There's, there's not a whole lot of concrete information in those documentaries to really sway somebody one way or the other, in my opinion.
- [47:05]
Dan Stidham
It was a setting on the fence
- [47:07]
Podcast Host
narrative and it was, but it was good and it was necessary. And we, we probably only ended up at this result because of Paradise Lost.
- [47:16]
Dan Stidham
You and I wouldn't be having this conversation.
- [47:18]
Podcast Host
Right, Exactly. Well. And you know what? Frankly, I didn't want to be rude earlier, but Judge Burnett would not have had to agree to pay $40 an hour for you to investigate the case if West Memphis PD would have done a good job investigating the case. I want the listeners to know that a lot of the stuff that we're talking about here today is not, you know, we're kind of jumping in and out of the book. So don't walk away from this conversation thinking that you don't need to. This is an absolute must read. So let me hit some things that are not in the book here, if you allow me to. Dan.
- [47:57]
Dan Stidham
All right.
- [47:58]
Podcast Host
One thing that you know and you, you do touch on this a little bit, but I want to get, I want to get your man to man answer here. Representing a Teenager defendant certainly has to present its own unique set of challenges for a defense attorney. So what challenges did you have representing 17 year old Jesse Misskello?
- [48:20]
Dan Stidham
The best way to describe that, it's, it's like not having a client at all.
- [48:25]
Podcast Host
No assistance from your client.
- [48:27]
Dan Stidham
No, he, he didn't even know what a lawyer was. He thought we were cops. He tried desperately to tell the, the same story that he told the West Memphis police to us, but he would get things so wrong. And of course the confession itself is so ridiculous. I mean, the, the time that it happened and they were tied up with a big brown rope and the boys skipped school that day and so did Jason Baldwin, none of that was even possible. It didn't happen that way. But the cops just keep on going on like, you know, nothing ever happened. Just, you know, so what he's telling us that things that aren't, aren't true, but they acted like they didn't care. And at one point, mentally handicapped or not, if you have to ask a 17 year old boy what a penis is, that should be telling you that you're dealing with somebody who's intellectually challenged.
- [49:26]
Podcast Host
They had to ask him if he knew how to tell time.
- [49:29]
Dan Stidham
And then that's another great something that, you know, do not.
- [49:36]
Podcast Host
And at no point do they go. At no point do they go, all right, we have to ask this guy, does he know how to tell time? Oh, wait, maybe we should stop this interview because it's kind of pointless at this point, right. If you have to ask a 17 year old if they know how to tell time.
- [49:50]
Dan Stidham
And imagine the frustration of these officers who spent the better part of 12 hours, it wasn't the 12th hour that he gave the first confession.
- [50:05]
Podcast Host
You know what, this is one thing that intrigued me. So I, I think, Dan, that I'm not going to lie to you. I struggled with this case and yes, there's so many obvious signs that they're innocent, but there's also, there are some gray areas and question marks and, and, and you will agree that it is difficult for a lot of people to get over the fact that somebody may have offered up a false confession to something so heinous and multiple false confessions to something so heinous. It is hard for a lot of persons to get over that. And I'm in that camp. But one of the things for me trying to play detective from a thousand miles away was that confession. And when he mentioned noon, the time of noon, I believe, and I think it might have been Mara Levitt's Book Devil's not where she's talking about, you know, she's so in depth with the timeline of everything and the movements of everybody on in early May and then in early June. I think that it's. She says in her book. And you know Jesse Misskelley better than most. So correct me if I'm wrong. Was he working his roofing job the day that the boys were found?
- [51:23]
Dan Stidham
He did, but at noon he decided he didn't like it. It wasn't any fun. So he didn't go back after lunch.
- [51:30]
Podcast Host
And he here is always been my thought, my thought on Jesse's perception of everything. I think that when he was leaving the roofing job that day that he heard on the radio that the boys had been found or saw the news shortly later at some time later that day. And I think that he thought he was giving the police the correct answer because he, I think he thinks that that's when they truly were killed.
- [52:03]
Dan Stidham
He told, it's in the officer's notes. He, he told him at first he, he thinks Damien did it, but, but it was actually the next day that the bodies were found. Right now, in relationship to the, the confession was about a month later. But yeah, you're right in the confession, everything's so wrong. The officers just acted like, so what? We got a confession. And then I wish all these years, one of the things I wished I could have been there when it happened is when John Fogelman walked over to the police station in West Memphis and either listen to the confession tape, which was only like 29 minutes long, I believe.
- [52:50]
Podcast Host
Yep.
- [52:51]
Dan Stidham
Get back in there and fix this. This couldn't have happened this way. I'm just guessing that's what he said. I don't. But he sent them back in and get you walks back in the interrogation room and he says, now, Jesse, you told me earlier this happened at five or six. Is it five or six or seven or eight. And of course, what does someone who has. Mr. What do they say? They say what their interrogator wants them to say. And he said seven or eight. So. And you can hear the gasp and get your voice like, finally, okay, that. And I think he actually said on the transcript, well, that clears that up then. And then it's pretty much over. I think it was 12 minutes.
- [53:34]
Podcast Host
And not, not that it excuses any of that poor police work, but do you think as somebody who's met these individuals, had conversations with these individuals, do you think that any of their actions, were they done out of desperation, or do you think they really thought deep down that they were doing the right thing.
- [53:56]
Dan Stidham
That is a very good question. And I did address that briefly, probably one or two sentences in the book. And I said, essentially, I can't quote exactly what I said, but I said, you know, the satanic panic was very real and palpable. And I can give you a couple examples here in a moment. But in the, in the book, I said, you know, once it became apparent and obvious and clear that these kids were innocent, they could have just said, hey, we screwed up. We're going to let you out of jail. We're going to have a new trial, we're going to do something to fix this. But what do they do? They dig in deeper. Even if they were spellbound, that's a bad metaphor for a witch hunt.
- [54:47]
Podcast Host
Right, right.
- [54:48]
Dan Stidham
But even if they thought in their heart of hearts, as Fogelman once told me, I think we got the right guys. And even if they believe that once the wheels fell off the wagon, they didn't give up, they just kept digging in deeper because they didn't want egg on their face. And that's where it turns from. You know, I'm sorry, I made a mistake to. Damn, I got to make sure this doesn't come out. And that's why I wrote the book, because I was not going to let this true story and let the documentaries or Burnett's version or Brent Davis's version be the final version because, and I think I quote Churchill in the book, Churchill said that history will be kind to him because he intends to write it. And so I kind of took that to heart. You know, somebody wants to write a book and claim I'm mentally ill or whatever, that's their prerogative. But I had to tell the truth. And I had to do it in such a way that it didn't pose a risk to my clients or the other two.
- [55:58]
Podcast Host
Well, and you getting the phone call to represent Jesse Misskelley, one thing that people need to truly understand here is you didn't have to take that case. You had. And not only did you not have to take that case, you could have said no, you had other irons in the fire at the time. You were busy practicing law and getting your career going. And I mean, you were busy with other things. And I'm sure that, yes, you know, the young man, the fighter and you wanted to take the case. But I'm going to ask you for a second. You know, we talked about the challenges, the unique challenges of representing somebody like 17 year old Jesse Misskelley. What would be your perceived. From. From someone who's worked as a defense attorney for so many years, what would be your perceived challenges when it would come to representing somebody like Damian Echols?
- [56:54]
Dan Stidham
Wow. You know, of course, Damien did go through a metamorphosis of being someone who naively believed that he couldn't be convicted because he was innocent. And flipping off the TV cameras and the victim's parents and news media, the local media would not show on television the parents calling Damien names and spurring him on. And then he would just react by flipping the bird or saying something stupid. That was news. That's how they created news. Damien had no idea, no concept that that was going to affect his trial. And his lawyers probably had about the same success keeping him under control as I did. Jesse Misskelley Sr. Who just continued to screw up our case. And of course, this will blow your mind and probably everyone else who's listening, but at first I thought he was guilty. It took me 90 days into the case for me to realize, oh, shit, this, there's something wrong here, bad wrong. And then we switch from, you know, how are we going to get this kid to testify against the other two to how we're going to defend an innocent client. And there's nothing worse for a defense lawyer than to have an innocent client. So that's the problem with being a criminal defense lawyer is you cannot control the narrative.
- [58:29]
Podcast Host
And echoes certainly to me, and I've met personalities similar. I believe in my, My life of the defiant till the end types. He certainly, like you said, and, and this is one thing that I struggled with in this case was some of the, his statements that he made was like, my God, man, don't you realize you're on trial here? And, and you're saying, you're saying that you're. You. You're fine with people when West Memphis thinking you're the boogeyman and like you said, flipping the bird and, but, but it's. It, it's very much like another very famous trial where on the news, all we got to see was Michael Jackson standing on top of the car, on top of the limousine and everybody cheering him on. What we didn't hear or see was the persons in court, his accusers and saying what they're accusing him of. You know, you only got to see that those, those moments and, and like the things that Eccles was saying and doing in the spotlight and in front of the cameras, they weren't showing what happened, what happened 10 seconds prior, or what went down 10 seconds after you only got to see the bad guy. There's your bad guy, he's on camera. And this is a guy that we're going to convict. Now, I, I would guess, and I think you'll agree with me, that out of the three, Jason Baldwin would probably have been the easiest to represent, as I think he would be more of the type of, you could tell him how to act and behave and he would probably fall in line with that.
- [60:10]
Dan Stidham
Oh, he did exactly what his lawyers told him to do.
- [60:13]
Podcast Host
And it's really a shame that he, I always thought it was. Was terrible that, that he had to sit through because really it was the trial of Damien Echols and the. But the two of them are sitting there together at the table and it's kind of like, well, if they convict Eccles, you're going to.
- [60:30]
Dan Stidham
Buddy, this is, I guess, another. This phrase is overused, but it's oxymoronic for Jason's lawyers and their efforts to get a separate trial neutered themselves and wouldn't say the magic words. We have antagonistic defenses. And at one point during a pretrial hearing, this is not in the book, but I actually elbowed one of them in the ribs and said, for God's sake, say it. Why do you want to be tried with Echols? Of course, there was no response. And so then they had the audacity to argue in closing that Jason's only here because it's guilt by association. You wouldn't have that problem if you'd
- [61:14]
Podcast Host
had your own trial, especially if you could have got your trial scheduled before Eccles.
- [61:19]
Dan Stidham
And then, as I understand it, they had just watched my trial three weeks earlier, and they couldn't have helped but notice that I put in lesser included offenses in the jury instructions, and I wanted Judge Burnett to put it all, give me an instruction on manslaughter, which he wouldn't do. But I got him down to second degree murder and the jury convicted him on two counts of second degree murder. And they just watched me do that and they, they went all or nothing. And on capital murder, and of course, for the jury to find Jason guilty, which they had to do because of satanic panic, he got life without parole, so they, they wouldn't give him a separate trial when all they had to do is say the magic words, then they said he shouldn't be held guilty by association, but they put him in the same room with Damien and his antics, which he's now very repentive of. I just find it crazy that that's the way they did it. It is what it is. That's not the way I would have done it. And they just seen me do it with some success. I mean, he did not get convicted. My client, even though he was the one who confessed, if you want to call it a confession, but I call it nonsense. But you want to believe that it's a confession, how come he didn't get convicted of capital murder? So if you give the jury options, then that gives you options and it spared my client from the death penalty. West Memphis 3 West Memphis 3. Damien eccles and jason baldwin jesse Ms. Kelly who? West memphis 3.
- [63:13]
Podcast Host
They were just 8 years old. Stephen Branch, Michael Moore and Christopher Myers found murdered, hog tied and naked in a drainage ditch in West Memphis.
- [63:23]
Dan Stidham
West Memphis 3.
- [63:31]
Podcast Host
The state stands behind the convictions.
- [63:54]
Dan Stidham
West memphis 3 west memphis 3. West Memphis 3
- [64:08]
Podcast Host
Join me, Cyndi Lauper
- [64:10]
Dan Stidham
with Chef Michelle Bernstein and Dr. Panico
- [64:13]
Podcast Host
to talk about psoriasis and psoriatic arthritis,
- [64:17]
Dan Stidham
the potential connection and risk of developing permanent joint damage. Cosentic secukinumab is prescribed for adults with moderate to severe plaque psoriasis 300 milligram dose and adults with active psoriatic arthritis, 150 milligrams dose. Don't use if you're allergic to Cosentyx before starting, get checked for tuberculosis. An increased risk of infections and lowered ability to fight them may occur. Like tuberculosis or other serious bacterial, fungal or viral infections, some are fatal. Tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms like fevers, sweats, chills, muscle aches or cough, had a vaccine or planned to, or if inflammatory bowel disease symptoms develop or worsen, serious allergic reactions and severe eczema like skin reactions may occur. Learn more at 1-844-cosentix oracocentix.com Cindy.