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West Memphis 3 /// Discussion /// Part 1
01:00:03
West Memphis 3 /// Discussion /// Part 1 Part 1 of 2 www.TrueCrimeGarage.com Join Nic & The Captain in the Garage for a riveting and energy filled discussion about the West Memphis 3 case. This case and True Crime story continues to be one of the more debated cases of the 20th century, even after more than 30 years has passed. Why can’t we as a collective community move on from this case? Is it because the case manages to creep its way back into the headlines, over and over again? Or, is it because at the end of the day we are all afraid that we may never know the truth about what happened in Robin Hood Hills, on May 5th, 1993? We are still seeking justice for Steve Branch, Michael Moore, Christopher Byers, and their families. Beer of the Week - Meloncholy by the good folks at Tactical Brewing Co. Garage Grade - 3 and a half bottle cap out of 5 Recommended Reading - A Harvest of Innocence; the untold story of the West Memphis Three murder case by Dan Stidham Follow ...
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- [00:00]
John
On the under $3 menu at McDonald's,
- [00:02]
Nick
a McChicken is $2.
- [00:04]
John
Because when you're craving a McChicken, you deserve a McChicken. And now that McChicken is just $2 limit, time only. Prices and participation may vary.
- [00:14]
Nick
Prices may be higher for delivery. Picture this. It's the end of a long week. You're unwinding in the tub, listening to your favorite true crime podcast and then chronic hives come back again in the middle of the episode. What a wet blanket looks like another spell of itchy, swollen, red or skin colored hives. If you have chronic spontaneous urticaria or csu, there may be a different treatment option. Worried about your chronic hives interrupting our next episode? Learn more@treatmyhives.com Garage SA.
- [01:24]
John
Foreign.
- [01:33]
Nick
Welcome to True Crime Garage. Wherever you are, whatever you're doing, thanks for listening. I'm your host, Nick and with me, as always, is a man who knows that the most appropriate response to you know what I mean is I know what you mean. Here is the cap.
- [01:47]
John
You know what I mean mate. It's good to be seen and good to see you. Thanks for listening. Thanks for telling a friend.
- [01:57]
Nick
Today we are very happy to be featuring Melancholy by the hard working guys and ladies down at Tactical Brewing Company. Melancholy is a watermelon sour. When I think of warm weather there is nothing better than a slice of watermelon or maybe half of a watermelon all to myself. Well, this is a sweet thirst quenching both gluten and lactose free way to cool down on a hot day. ABV 5% garage grade 3 and 3 quarter bottle caps out of five. Let's give some thanks and praise and some cheers to our friends. First up, a big shout out to Mando Pesche from Asante, Minnesota. And a triple cheers to our friends Chris, Doug and Shiani in Orlando, Florida. Everyone we just mentioned contributed to the Garage beer fund and for that we thank you.
- [02:49]
John
Yeah, bwr you and beer run for everything. True crime. Check out truecrimegarage.com and make sure you sign up on the mailing list so you're in the know. And Colonel, that's enough of the business.
- [03:02]
Nick
All right everybody gather round, grab a chair, grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime. West Memphis 33 West Memphis 3. Damien echols and jason baldwin. Jesse Ms. Kelly who west memphis. They were just 8 years old. Stephen Branch, Michael Moore and Christopher Byers found murdered hog tied and naked in a drainage ditch in West Memphis. West Memphis 3. The state stands behind the conviction 2016. And if my math is correct here, Captain, that was about eight years years ago when we first covered the West Memphis Three case in a three part series. It was one of our first three part series that would be episodes 40, 41 and 42. And we re released them refill style here in the garage this week. And we hope that you enjoyed listening to those for either the first or second time. Maybe you've listened to it for the third time. But this case always stays on our minds. It's one of the red light cases, as the Captain likes to call them, and it's one that we, because of our fascination with this case, tend to circle back to. Longtime listeners of off the Record will know that this has been kind of a revolving topic amongst many other cases on that show. And we thought that we would take a little look at how we did it back in 2016, throw it under the microscope and give our thoughts on our coverage, but also things that we have thought and discovered since then and have a open discussion about the West Memphis three case and how it is and how it stands in the year 2024.
- [05:13]
John
Yeah, so for listeners that don't know, my definition of a red light case is simply that you, you might lean towards somebody's innocent or guilt, but there might be a point of evidence or a piece of information that just kind of bothers you, sits with you funny, where you go, well, I think they're innocent, but this piece of information bothers me. And if I could just clear that piece of information up, I'd have more clarity on the case.
- [05:43]
Nick
A red light like the stop, stopping in traffic, red light. It's a moment when you end up with an extra two or three minutes of downtime that you did not anticipate. And some of these cases, some of these true crime stories pop into your mind and it doesn't have to be at a red light. It could be any time that you find yourself with extra time to think. And these cases that just stay in the back of your mind and maybe they nag at you and like the Captain said, different details and different, different moments in those cases and in those stories that kind of stick with you, ones that you just find yourself constantly thinking about, and this one has no shortage of those details. And the other thing too here, Captain, we're talking about a case from 1993 when the murders took place and a trial that took place for the most part in 1994. There are so many different details in this case that one could argue for guilt of The West Memphis three, the teenagers, Innocence for the three, or undecided.
- [06:47]
John
And I think this case in particular has. Throughout time, the pendulum has shifted. Sometimes the pendulum is it seems like the majority of people think they're guilty. Then it switches to the majority of people think they're innocent. But it seems like once people take aside, they take that side hard, and they are not willing to budge from that. Which has always really fascinated me, because initially looking into this case as a child, it was like, of course these guys are innocent. And then the more I dove in, and it's so fascinating. Like you said, I mean, we covered this case so many years ago. Sometimes it feels like yesterday, sometimes it feels like 20 years ago. Yeah. I had a music teacher one time ask me. I was about 18 years old at the time. He said, on a scale of 1 to 10, how well do you think you know music? And at the time, because I was young, naive, and arrogant, I was like, I'm about an 8. I. And. And I'm probably not going to get to a 10. I just want to get to a 9. And then if somebody asked me that question today, how well do you know music? One out of ten, I'd say probably a two. And when we covered this case so many years ago, after we were done, because we. It was such a deep dive. And not just the deep dive, but then I got to sit beside you to hear your deep dive thoughts. And when we got done, I thought, you know, I really understand this case. I might not be able to definitively say that they're innocent or definitively say that they're guilty, but I really understand this case. And I know all these things that maybe the. The average public doesn't know about this case. Now, however many years later, if you asked me how well do I think I know this case, I'd say I have. I have studied this case. I've done deep dive after deep dive. There is probably not a YouTube video that I haven't watched on this case. There's not a podcast that I haven't listened to on this case. There's probably not a book that I haven't read, read about this case. And I still feel like my knowledge out of 1 to 10, is maybe a 2 or 3.
- [09:04]
Nick
I think that that's the nature of this story, and not really. I don't think that has anything to do with you. And. And here's why. I think that a lot of the literature that has come out about this case over the years, starting with the Devil's Not. And then all the stuff that was on the Internet, remember, this is. This case is happening and Paradise Lost 1, 2, and 3 are coming out on HBO and the Internet's really taking off and blowing up with message boards and blogs and everything else.
- [09:35]
John
Right.
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Nick
I think all of the. Everything that you can read and research, with maybe the exception of the Callahan website, is a lot of it is facts that also contain opinions of the writer.
- [09:49]
John
Correct.
- [09:50]
Nick
So I think, given given that the nature of this true crime story, not the case itself, but the nature of this true crime story is always leaving the person in doubt, I think to me that that's a sign of intelligence because I don't love when I'm talking to different individuals on certain cases, and they're so hardcore nose to the grind. This is what happened and here's why. And then they follow it up with like three or four really lame examples of why they are right. This is one of those cases. To me, I do have a strong opinion on. On guilt or innocence in this case, but I also try not to let it cloud anything because this is one of those cases that fascinates me so much that I'm always in search and always hungry for more information. And I'm happy to consume it and go into it, not allowing my personal beliefs from the information that I've already consumed to taint the new information that I'm taking in now. When we covered it back in 2016, Captain, one thing that I liked about the way that we did it was we spent so much time on the timeline because there's a lot of markers in that timeline that can be set in stone. Right. They're pretty much fact. Where there's a lot of debate in every detail of this case, the timeline can be, at points, pretty definitive. So our first episode, the Robin Hood Hills Murders, is what we titled that one, really focused on that May 5, 1993 date. And between the hours of 8pm and 10pm when three sets of parents called the West Memphis Police Department, each reporting their sons to be missing. And part two, we got. And we. We kind of fanned out a little bit from there, we dive back into the timeline. A lot of this was spent on the timeline of the parents of each of the victims themselves, their movements on the night that the boys went missing, and the morning when everyone's out searching for the boys before, unfortunately, they are found in that ditch.
- [12:09]
John
Right.
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Nick
We also got into some of the different confessions and introduced the suspects, Jesse Misskelley, Jason Baldwin and Damien Eccles, and then followed that up in part three, when we went into the lives and timelines of Jesse, Jason and Damien and then started to ask ourselves in the audience as well, are these three guys guilty? And if these three teenagers are not guilty, then who is? And we discussed Mark Byers at length. We discussed Terry Hobbs at length. We also discussed one of the details in the case that still bothers me maybe more than any other detail in this case is the strange man seen at the Bojangles restaurant and the fact
- [12:52]
John
that the evidence that he left behind was lost by law enforcement.
- [12:56]
Nick
Yes. Not collected on night one. And then when they returned and collect blood scrapings off of the bathroom wall, then those blood scrapings, they never seemed. Somehow they got lost from the time that they were collected to the time that they could be sent off to the lab to get us some more information about that blood evidence. Yeah, a lot of what we did, Captain, as said, was timeline stuff. And for good reason. And I think that is key because remember, another key component to this case is even though we get kind of some different answers and some different opinions stated throughout time in this case from medical examiner Frank Peretti, he admits having trouble narrowing down the time of death. That's why we spent so much time on the timeline itself and the persons that are known in this case, close to this case and what we know about their timelines for that evening in that night. Because one could examine the timeline of events and really start to put, put together a window of time for that time of death, which we know is so important to any homicide investigation.
- [14:12]
John
Well, and we believe that these victims bodies, Christopher Byers, Michael Moore and Stevie Branch, were submerged in water for at least over 15 hours, which this is going to be the reason why this case probably gets talked about to the end of time. Because what do we know about water? Water destroys evidence and it destroys some of the processes that we need to take scientifically to get a time frame. And that will make this case, I think, talked about till the end of time.
- [14:49]
Nick
I think you're exactly right. The, the true lack of any real physical evidence in this case at the crime scene where the boys are found. Yes, there is some physical evidence, but I think that if anyone were trying to argue that there's a mountain of physical evidence, they clearly don't know this case. There is such little physical evidence at this crime scene, a lot of it due to where the boys were found, how they were placed in the water. And again, that leaves us going back to that timeline and we can really shrink that timeline largely in part because the three victims were found less than 24 hours after they were last seen.
- [15:28]
John
Yes.
- [15:28]
Nick
Michael Moore, Christopher Byers, Stevie Branch, One thing about May 5, the day that they went missing, we do know that all three attended school on that Wednesday at Weaver elementary in West Memphis, Arkansas. And as far as attempting to put together an alibi, we also know that Jason Baldwin attended school that day. The three victims were hanging out, riding bikes and a skateboard around the neighborhood. They were spotted by several people that evening. And it's reported that the last sighting of the three may be their last seen riding two bicycles on the service road next to the interstate around at approximately 6:30pm that evening.
- [16:09]
John
Yeah, I believe that eyewitness said there was individuals on bicycle and a skateboard. And when we say that there was eyewitnesses that saw these three kids throughout the neighborhood, you go, okay, well, yeah, a couple people saw them. So we got a, we got a good grasp over 30 eyewitnesses that can tell you, I believe I saw the boys at this time. If you go through all those eyewitness accounts, you can almost draw a map and draw a diagram of where we think these boys were at, at what time and then where did they go next? And then we know all this information until they go into the woods.
- [16:51]
Nick
I think we can say with some level of confidence here, all the boys were missing by 8pm that night. Right. As we established in the previous episodes, Mark Byers was the first to report his son missing. We know, according to statements that Stevie Branch was supposed to be home, back at home at 8pm but he does not return. Correct. So then we have parents calling in reporting that their sons are missing. This all seems to be. We get statements from each of the parents of, oh, this was the last time I saw them. And this is what I was doing and what they were doing at the time that, that I did see them. So, John, Mark Byers calls in roughly about 8pm and the key parts of the timeline are this for me, this call from buyers at 8pm Dana Moore calling in at 9:24pm and then we don't have a time stamp for this one, but we know that it took place shortly after 924 Dana Moore call is the call that's reported by Pam Hobbs to be Terry Hobbs calling via pay phone. But the complaint given by Pam Hobbs.
- [18:08]
John
Yeah. And looking back on our coverage, I, I think, well, one, I, I think you did a great job listening back. I went, this is why this guy is the goat of true crime. Podcast period. And people need to recognize that. Other, other podcasters need to recognize that and when they should invite you on their show more often to hear your thoughts. And cnn, Fox News, all those people they should call.
- [18:37]
Nick
Busy enough doing our garage show, busy enough doing the garage. And I, I enjoy doing the garage show. So this, this takes, this takes the cake. Everything else secondary.
- [18:47]
John
Well, so listening back, I went, okay, well this guy smart, or he's just edited very well. And then I was like, why the heck, why the heck am I on the show? Episode 40 some, we should have realized, oh, this guy just doesn't have what it takes. 700 and some episodes later, we're still damn fools. But looking back on it now, and I think I've, or I hope I've grown as, as an individual and somebody that's trying to create content that changes the landscape of the world, essentially. I mean, sometimes we're covering cases just to get people to talk about a description of a, of a suspect or hey, here's a picture of a vehicle. Can you identify this? And maybe it can give law enforcement leads. Looking back on this coverage, the only thing I would say that I think we, I do differently is I would have just focused strictly on the timeline, spaced it out properly, and I think I would have left some of the other things alone because I think they're too, some of these things are too big to get into a 45 minute discussion on. And if somebody asked me today, hey, I want you to cover the West Memphis three case definitively as a podcast, I would say it would probably at least take 30 episodes. It's just a whale of a case. And you brought this up, I believe, on, off the record, the fact that this case was adjudicated. So then once that happens, we have access to all these files. And once you have access to all those files, the small picture that is painted in the media's eyes becomes a lot larger. Yeah. And then you have to sift through a lot more information. And so when you have a case like West Memphis three that was adjudicated, there's so much information to go through and I think to do its justice to the victims. The victims in this case, just to remind anybody that doesn't know, are Christopher Byers, Michael Moore and Stevie Branch. And I think to do your due diligence on this case, it would take again and it wouldn't be just 30 episodes. I think one of the things I'm so impressed by what you did all those years ago was I, I think some people forget we don't have a staff. We don't have writers. What's coming out of your mouth is what you wrote down, what you researched
- [21:22]
Nick
for good or bad.
- [21:24]
John
For good or bad. But also the time period. It's not like we were able to spend six months only researching, writing these episodes. This is happening within days and every episode that we cover. And so when people go, oh, man, you guys just put out a three parter or, or a two parter. I can't believe how much information you guys put out on a weekly basis. Yeah, applaud Nick. Applaud the goat. Because he's doing this each and every week, trying to do his due diligence and trying to be respectful to those victims and tell their story in a just way. And that takes a lot of time and effort. And so I just applaud you. I know I sound like I'm kissing your ass. Don't get used to it, my friend. It's really amazing when you stop to think about for a second how much content we have put out and, and how little time frame we have to do it in between each episode.
- [22:24]
Nick
I get asked all the time, like, what episode are you up to now? And I'm always like, I don't know, 700 and something like, we, we. A long time ago, we stopped focusing on the number of episodes because we've, we've been doing it for so long and thankful that we have a great audience that allows us to do our garage show every week.
- [22:41]
John
It's the smartest audience in the world.
- [22:44]
Nick
I appreciate everything that you just said. You know, you're, you're, you're spot on. You are spot on. Because I was going to say, if we were covering this today, there's going to be somebody in their car going, yeah, idiot, you are covering it today. But if we were to be, be looking at this case for the first time in the garage with a garage presentation, you're exactly right. There's no way we would have done just three episodes on it. And this is one of those cases that even though it is adjudicated, one, I feel like we're still learning information about this case all of these years later. And two, when you go through the files, especially all the stuff on the Callahan website, where you go, okay, well, this is everything. This is everything. And you, the answer's got to be in here somewhere. And if I dig long enough and deep enough, I'll find the answer, I'll find that smoking gun. And the problem that you will run into in this case. Is that does not exist. If. If that is somewhere, I am yet to see it. And I have not spoke to anybody that has. I think that that is one of those reminders, the kick in the pants with this case, right. That you go, okay, like, yeah, I watched Paradise Lost and I assumed many years later, you know, watching it as a kid is. You walk away with a different interpretation than you do as an adult. But for me, anyway, Captain, walking away from revisiting Paradise Lost as an adult, I walk away going, well, of course they skewed it to. To present as if they are innocent or others may be guilty. It makes for a better show. It makes for better entertainment. But then you go through everything on the Callahan website, and I mean, we're talking. These are police interviews, we're talking. These are tips that were called in. Yeah. I mean, other than this Ms. Kelly confession. And of course, there is a wide range and spectrum of person's thoughts and opinions on the Ms. Kelly confession, but you go, without that, I don't see how this case was adjudicated.
- [24:52]
John
Yeah, there's.
- [24:53]
Nick
There's just nothing. For me, anyway. There's nothing really in those details.
- [24:57]
John
Okay, just to be clear, nothing in the details that are presented to us by hbo.
- [25:04]
Nick
Like the case files. For. As voluminous as the case file is.
- [25:09]
John
Right.
- [25:10]
Nick
There's not a whole lot of great details in there for building a real true case against anyone, really, in my opinion. There's. There are lots of interesting nuggets of. Of information and some detailed information throughout there. But. But I don't. I don't go through that entire file and walk away from it going, I know who did it, and I know who they should build a case against, because it's all right here. I. I just can't do that. Not in good faith.
- [25:41]
John
Yeah. I'm gonna ask you to hold my beer for a second.
- [25:45]
Nick
Holding.
- [25:46]
John
One of the rants that I have about this case is. And this is going to sound maybe sappy or maybe a. A little vulnerable, but I feel let down. I feel let down by people like hbo, which I hold in high regard, of creating excellent content. Like I said, looking back on our episodes, I wouldn't have covered it the way we covered it. I would have just focused on the timeline, keep some of the other stuff out there. I feel let down by other podcasters, people that have written books about this. I feel let down about this case because I think so many of the. The information in this case that is presented is simply opinions wrapped up with a little bit of facts here and there. And that bothers me. I think we could all learn something from the great Stephen Hawking. He proved something supposedly right scientifically. Everybody's like, stephen, yeah, you did it. Yeah, yeah, you proved this theory. You're. You're amazing. And then the rest of his life he spent trying to disprove himself. And I think that's a case that's this big. That's what you have to do. The moment those guys set out to make a documentary on this case, and within seconds of meeting these people said, oh, within minutes of meeting these people, we knew that they were innocent. At that moment, it's like, maybe you should step away from the case. And maybe you should. Or it's like, maybe you should present it one way and then spend the rest of your life trying to present the other narrative. Because I do think in this case, our problem. And I'm going to try not to be ranty, and I'm going to try not to jump on a soapbox a million times. But one of our problems with crime is in the crime world, the true crime world, is we think it, that it's csi, that there is going to be a smoking gun, and there doesn't have to be. And I, and I heard it on this podcast and I wish I could remember who said it, but I thought it was a brilliant analogy. They said, let's say you have a case where a kid threw a rock off of a bridge and it hit a vehicle, causing that vehicle to spin out and the person in that vehicle died. That individual is wearing a glove. So we have no DNA evidence on that rock, but that kid lives in Arkansas, and that kid wears Detroit Lions shirts every day. Eyewitness said, I saw the kid. Can't really make out what he looked like, but he's wearing a Detroit Lions T shirt. Now, on that evidence alone, you can't convict him, but you can start building a case around that. And I think that's what you have in this case. I do think you have pieces of information that when law enforcement heard they couldn't deny that information, they had to dig in more. And then the more they dug in, the more that they were finding yeses. And yes, they found some no's along the way, but they found more yeses. And I think because of the state of the world, because of the heinous nature of this crime, I think there's some evidence that this crime could have been ritualistic in nature, that law enforcement had to then keep running with the suspects that they had that they kept getting more yeses than no's.
- [29:42]
Nick
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- [35:08]
John
All right, we are back. Welcome to my soapbox. Cheers to you mates. Cheers to you Colonel I. You know, it's 700 and some episodes and I never asked you to hold my beer. Can't believe that has never happened.
- [35:23]
Nick
I have consumed that beer and now it's gone.
- [35:27]
John
I was when I was in Glasgow last weekend, I was trying to explain to people when we first recorded how you would just get up from your chair, walk away from the mic and still talk and grab a beer.
- [35:41]
Nick
Go to the fridge and get a beer.
- [35:42]
John
Hey, once we hit a thousand episodes, that's the format we're going back to, my friend.
- [35:47]
Nick
We're gonna go back to that. And you would get so mad, you're like, hey idiot, we're the whole point of the shows. We're on microphones. And I was always, look, I've already worked like 10 or 11 hours today if I can't get up and get a beer, I'm not doing the show.
- [36:01]
John
I don't think we should do this anymore. I think this is a lot of
- [36:04]
Nick
work and I also assume that the, you know, I thought there was like nine people listening. So I thought that they would just bear with me for the three minutes that it took me to get a beer. But no, I think you, you hit the nail on the head with, with your statement there leading into the break. I also think you maybe you hit a lot of, did a lot of collateral damage maybe in that as. As well. But I know, I think, I think that you're right, you know, and then. So let's, let's talk about some things. Looking at this case again, I wanted to see if there was anything that I could find that I didn't come across the first go round that intrigued and piqued my interest. So what I did was I started looking at what was going on in the local media between the times of the murders, them finding the boys and then the arrest when the arrests were finally made. So roughly you have about a one month time period between the murders. In between we have somebody arrested for the crimes and charged with the crimes. One thing I failed to recognize and know and understand our first go round was that I thought that this thing just became a media frenzy once the teenagers were arrested and once HBO got involved. And no, on the local level, very much like Delphi and the yogurt shop murders, this was a bit of a media frenzy, at least in that region and locally that entire time, from the time that it was reported that they were found in the ditch to the time that there was an arrest and then it continued on after. Before we get into that, one thing that I did find too, you know, we, we really threw and I, I have conflicting feelings about this, but I don't think we were totally wrong. We really threw Regina Meeks. We really threw Officer Regina Meeks under the bus in our first coverage. She's the one that was taking some of the, or responding to some of the missing persons reports that night when the boys were missing. She's also the one that goes to the Mr. Bojangles restaurant to take the report of the man who is bleeding or covered in blood. There's different variations of that story. Has items with blood on them, using toilet paper and paper products in the restroom to clean up blood that he's gone by the time that she arrives at the Bojangles restaurant, but she doesn't bother to go inside. She just simply pulls up to the drive through, talks to the manager through the drive thru window and then gets another call and then goes in response to that call.
- [38:54]
John
Yeah. And again, this case, it dry, it can drive you nuts because you just think, for one, if she gets that call 15 minutes later, she's already in that bathroom collecting the evidence.
- [39:09]
Nick
Possibly, possibly.
- [39:10]
John
And if she was the one to collect the evidence, possibly that evidence isn't lost. Later, that evidence is collected by the store manager and given to a different detective. That detective is the one responsible for losing it. But again, it's like, I mean, some people want to say, like cops are all nefarious. This guy might have just been a dumbass and he did something and he made a mistake and he might have had no ill intent. And for all we know, for the last 30 years he has been beating himself up. She, go on. Sorry, it's a she, not the one that received the.
- [39:50]
Nick
Oh, sorry, go ahead. Sorry. Good.
- [39:52]
John
Yeah, so he might be of beaten himself and he had to take the stand and basically said, look, I failed as a police officer. I failed to serve and protect my community by losing this evidence. And there's probably not a day that goes by unless it was a nefarious act that this guy goes, look, this is one of the most talked about cases. And I guarantee you, if we would have that evidence, muddy, bloody individual comes into a restaurant less than a mile away from the murder scene and we test that evidence and it matches the victims. Those boys never go to trial. The teenage boys never go to trial. We never know who West Memphis Three are. And we're not talking about this case 30 years later.
- [40:41]
Nick
Well, and the other part of that too is at the very least, let's say they collect the blood evidence and it doesn't turn out to be the victims, but it turns out to be the Mr. Bojangles guy, we could at the very least identify that individual today.
- [40:58]
John
Correct.
- [40:58]
Nick
With the DNA. So the other part of this story though is we talk about Regina Meeks not going in and we go, well, if she wouldn't have got that call, maybe we have different, better new information in this case than what we have today. But part of that, that exchange between her and the Bojangles employee was the Bojangles employee telling her, I collected some of the items that were in the bathroom. I had to clean up some of that because we have customers. I can't have a, you know, mud and blood in my restaurant. But he says, I collected some of those items. And one of those items being sunglasses. And I think there was at least one other item. Maybe it was like a roll of toilet paper that was used to soak up blood. Part of that exchange is Regina Meeks telling the employee, well, you can just discard of those items. We don't need those items. And then gets the call and goes off. But one thing that I've recently learned, to my surprise, because I've sat here for 30 years now and gone, well, if Regina Meeks would have handled that differently, and as you just said, the officer that responds the following day, if he would have not lost the evidence
- [42:09]
John
or, or take another step back and go, what if that store manager said, I think this guy is muddy and bloody and this is a crime scene and I'm just going to lock the freaking door until the, the police get here. You know, I can't have a muddy and bloody bathroom. No, you can't, but you do. And so you should just lock the door and, and step away. Put down that bleach bottle and step away from the evidence and let the officers do what they're supposed to do. Because again, based on that conversation, it's like. But that's where the problem with this case is. There's so many. You have so many times like this one where it's like, well, if this person did something different or this person did something different or if this happened differently, then maybe we'd have a lot more information and that. And it's not fair, especially when there's multiple people, multiple people involved to put the blame or the onus on them.
- [43:07]
Nick
Yeah. And I don't want to put it squarely on one person, but I will, I will say this like I believe in my heart that there are many people in this case. Police, detectives, members of the court, attorneys, teenagers, parents and family members of the victims. I think that there is a. Is a long list of persons that wish that they had done things differently or knew the severity, understood the severity of the situation that night and that they would have done things different. I hope that. And I want to believe that with my heart. I do want to say that Regina Meeks takes the missing person's reports of these boys and then responds to Bojangles. You would think not just her, but West Memphis PD would have been on high alert then and there.
- [44:06]
John
Right.
- [44:06]
Nick
But one other thing that could have been done very differently was that Officer Meeks reports that when taking at least one of the missing persons reports about the boys, that when asking the parents and hearing about where they may have last been seen but also hearing from the parents, all the woods over there that the, the kids call Robin Hood park, it's actually referred to as Robin Hood park in some of the sources out there, Robin Hood Hills, that the, the boys, they like to go in that area so much so that they've gotten in trouble for going in there. And so when you're asking the parents, well, where do you think they could be? Where do you think they took off to? Because that's what you're responding to. You think that these boys are just not where they should be. They're being boys will be boys, and they're up to no good. You know, they're out misbehaving or where they shouldn't be or where they've been told not to go. She goes up to the tree line to start to walk into the woods to look for the boys and turns around and puts in her report that the mosquitoes were too bad, too strong, they were swarming her, that they, that she, she was not going to enter the woods. And then we know that shortly later she's getting these other calls.
- [45:22]
John
And she's not the only person that states this throughout the search for their kids. And the other issue with this whole
- [45:30]
Nick
thing is we, several of the parents wouldn't go in there at first either. Wasn't until the night drug on that they started to go into that area. And. But that's one of those things that, like, I, I review that kind of information and it just hurts my brain to go, my God, had she gone in there during those calls? Because we went through the time, the timing of those calls, right? What would she have seen?
- [45:52]
John
Right?
- [45:53]
Nick
Which is there a chance she would have seen the killer? Is there a chance that she would have seen the bicycles not yet discarded, of like, what would have been a witness account of what was going on in there had somebody entered it, especially an officer?
- [46:07]
John
Like I said, there's all these moments in this case where you go, okay, so she goes up to the tree line, but the mosquitoes are rampant, so they're like, I can't go in there. What would she have seen? But so you can fault law enforcement for that on some level, but on some level you can go, well, most of the time when there's a missing person report, they don't start looking for the individual till the next day. This was like, calls came in and law enforcement, it was a quiet night that night. So law enforcement was like, hey, we need to look for these boys. And there was patrol officers patrolling the neighborhood and going around and like you said, responding to the boat jingles call. And with a lot of missing person cases we covered, it's like one or two days later till they start looking
- [46:50]
Nick
for the person, getting into some of the media stuff, because that was something that I didn't delve into in great detail in our coverage back in 2016. So let's start with the great John Walsh, the great TV show America's Most Wanted. This is one detail that is relatively new to me. So the day after America's Most Wanted, they ran a segment on the unsolved murders of these three boys, at this point, obviously had not made any arrest. So they run a segment that aired. Now, we've seen this when we've covered old cases from the 80s and 90s and many people know this still even to be true, even to this day, that locally it's pretty well known, right? Like, oh, that case that happened down the road or happened the town over, it's going to be on America's Most Wanted this week or on Unsolved Mysteries this week. And so I'm sure that a lot of people were tuning in in this area when that segment ran. But one thing that they received, I believe from information I reviewed said that they received about 75 or so tips after that segment ran. But of those 75 or so tips, one that I found to be incredibly ironic, let's say, is one of the tips comes in and it's three boys that are calling in the tip. These three boys told police that they had become suspicious of a man who tried to lure them to into his wooded campsite, which was not far from the crime scene.
- [48:38]
John
Yes. These three boys were at a bowling alley at the time.
- [48:41]
Nick
This is the one that involves Jesse Misskelley. He's one of the three boys phoning in this tip.
- [48:47]
John
Yes. So basically, these three boys, which Jesse, Ms. Kelly was a part of, these three boys, they were heading to the bowling alley, I believe, to play the arcades or something. And this man approached them saying that he had some beer and some drugs or whatever and come with me and we'll hang out. And they're like, no, you're a weirdo. They started walking away. As they walked away, there was three young boys that the, the man then approached. And then once the older boys saw that, they're like, well, we weren't in fear of him because he was just a weirdo and we got away. But now he's talking to younger kids. So that's why they initially phoned all that in.
- [49:35]
Nick
But to be clear, my understanding of this tip is that they're not talking about the night in question when the boys went missing.
- [49:43]
John
No.
- [49:43]
Nick
They're saying that this happened around about the same time. And it just so happens to be that this campsite that they were asked if they wanted to go to was not far from the crime scene.
- [49:56]
John
Right. This happened roughly a week or so after the crimes were committed.
- [50:03]
Nick
And so in this tip, they follow up, police follow up on this tip. And the result, from my understanding, Captain, is they figured out who the man was. And the man turned out to be the son of a Crittenden County Sheriff's deputy who was known to have some mental issues. So the police determined that the tip was not useful to their investigation. Now.
- [50:26]
John
Right.
- [50:27]
Nick
Whether it's useful to the investigation or not, I. I don't think there's enough detailed information in there for us to have a determination if it should have been useful or not. I also don't think it's something they're trying to sweep under the rug. What I see here, though, is this is another attempt. Yes, there's two other persons involved in phoning in this tip, but it's another tip of Jesse Misskelley trying to be involved in this investigation in some form or fashion. Right. Because one of the thoughts had always been that he wanted to talk to police based off of the idea that he wanted to get the reward money, that they were offering a bunch of reward money, and so he was willing and open to talking with police in hopes of maybe getting that reward money. I don't know that this tip points toward anything guilty or innocent. It's just something that took place that I was unaware of.
- [51:23]
John
Well, not only was this tip called in, but the three boys, including Ms. Kelly, went to the police station and they. And they had to tell the police officers what they saw. And initially, when they were making this report, it had nothing to do with the crimes that happened earlier. And there's actually the. The other two boys have discussed this later, stating, we didn't even mention the murders of the three boys until after we're at the police station. And once they got to the police station, they're like, hey, I wonder if this has anything to do with those three boys that were missing.
- [52:02]
Nick
Now, let's go out to May 15, and a statement given by police, and I'll keep it short and sweet here to the local media, is that there were no suspects. The exact statement, in fact, is, no, there are no suspects at this time. This is May 15th. They also tell the media that they are still collecting and forwarding information to the FBI behavioral experts at Quantico, Virginia, where FBI agents were assembling, attempting to put together a profile of the killer killers. From my understanding, Captain, and based off of the Callahan website as well, I don't think that that profile. I think they received the profile, but I don't think it was ever released to the public. Right now some of my suspicions are that they formed a list of questions and these list of questions, we talked about a ton of the questions on off the record here recently, but we've talked about some of these other questions on our original coverage as well. But I think it adds, it gives a little insight as to what they were thinking, the FBI agents anyway, in regard to their profile of the killer or killers. So the questions they were telling the local police to ask were who all lives in your like you're interviewing somebody or knocking on their door. Who all lives here in this home? What's the relationship of any of those people that live here and where do they work? How many kids do you have? Do they attend school? If so, where? And of course, they're collecting names and addresses of persons, also asking about who their friends are. They were collecting information about the type of vehicles that they would own and reminding local police, the FBI is reminding local police, don't, don't be lazy about this. Get a complete description right, get color, year, make, model and tag numbers of all of these vehicles. They also encourage them to ask about any visitors that these persons would have had. This is before, during and after the boys were killed. They had also gone on with several other questions. You know, things that. Where were you that Wednesday night? Were you at home? But at the, at the end of those, that list of questions, the FBI is telling West Memphis Police Department, ask if they, if the person you're, you're questioning or anyone they know in the area is a Vietnam veteran. Ask if anyone in the area wears camouflage, a uniform or any kind of uniform.
- [54:48]
John
Makes it seem like they were on to something or someone and that's why they would put this as a part of the question.
- [54:55]
Nick
I think what we have here, Captain, is that that was part of the profile and that's why they're encouraging and I think it's like a little telling. It shows their hand a little bit. Ask if, if they are a Vietnam veteran or anyone they know in the area is also ask if anybody wears camoufl or military type uniform of any kind or a uniform of any kind. And that's weird. To me, because, you know, years later, we would hear the John Douglas assessment of the crimes in the Cases that Haunt Us book, and we would hear other profiles performed from persons not as famous or well known as John Douglas. But a lot of those included saying things like the. Whoever did this was maybe in a position of authority in comparison to the victims. And so that to me, like, position of authority, uniform of any kind. Uniform implies authority. Also, the Vietnam stuff, that goes to something we talked about in our original coverage, where West Memphis police were working under the idea that the way that the boys were tied was similar somehow to how persons would have been tied during the Vietnam War. Calling around to hospitals looking for individuals that were injured, especially on their private areas. Males that would have been injured showing up to the hospital that night or the next day with injuries to their private area, especially wondering if any person showing up, males were coming in injured that were former Vietnam veterans.
- [56:39]
John
Yeah. And I'm glad you bring up John Douglas, and I'm going to say this, and I think it might hurt your feelings a little bit, but this is one that I, When I've revisited his thoughts and his assessment of the West Memphis three, I just feel like he dropped the ball.
- [56:56]
Nick
He.
- [56:57]
John
He wanted us. The two things in particular where I think he dropped the ball is he. He was basically saying that these three individuals didn't have the criminal history or the history of violence in order to commit a crime like this. And then he also stated that there wasn't the drug use that. History of drug use that he thinks would, you know, had to be involved in order to commit a crime like this.
- [57:24]
Nick
Yeah, and I don't know why that would hurt my feelings. He's. He's his own man.
- [57:28]
John
Well, I know you're. I'm a fan of his, too, but it's. Sometimes people do a bad job and, and may.
- [57:35]
Nick
And well. But it's also tough to say if he did a bad job. I think that we could both.
- [57:41]
John
No, we can say he did a bad job because if you look into these three individuals, there's a history of drug use and alcohol use, period. And then there. Is there a history of violence, period? Yes, there is. And so I don't know what information he was privy to.
- [57:58]
Nick
Oh, I, I'm sorry, I failed to follow you. I thought you were saying in his profile of the likely offender or offenders, he, he was saying no history of violence or drug use, which wouldn't make, would, Wouldn't make any sense.
- [58:11]
John
No, no. He, he was asked like, hey, look at the Three individuals, the West Memphis three that were found guilty of this crime. And, and what do you, what do you make of them? And he's like, well, they, they don't have the criminal history or the, the drug abuse history.
- [58:26]
Nick
And it's like, I would like to
- [58:28]
John
know what you're reading.
- [58:30]
Nick
I would like to know if he meant that in comparison to his profile of the killer, they don't have the level of history of violence or they don't have the level of known drug use that I would expect to see from the person who committed this. Yeah.
- [58:45]
John
So again, again, at all, the profile is also going to be based on what information you're given. And so if you don't have people at the trailer park telling you, well, we've seen Jason Baldwin torture animals, we've seen, you know, Damien Echols kill a dog. If you don't have that information or you don't have his medical history at the time and the violence towards his parents and the fact that he, that he was locked up five times in a mental facility in 1992, the year before the murders. If you don't have that information, then obviously you can't make a correct assessment. So I don't know what he was privy to and what he wasn't knowing. What I know now and what I've been privy to, I can say, well, I think he, he dropped the ball on that.
- [59:34]
Nick
I thought one thing, while we're on the Douglas topic, I thought one thing that was interesting was that he, he had said that he was shocked, that he was surprised that given the result that West Memphis Police Department, that they reached out to the FBI so early on in the investigation. But he also says that he was even more surprised learning that they reached out to the FBI because he says, I was in charge of that unit at the time and they never, there was no follow up with us. Like, they never came back to us to ask us any more information or to be involved other than like, hey, could you, could you take a look at this and kind of quickly come up with a profile of who we should be looking for? Now, talking about this, this is another big part of why I believe that this case was kind of damned to be flubbed up from the very beginning because. Right. So they reach out to the FBI. There's also information that they reached out to the Satanic Crimes Unit of the New York City Police Department, which was formed in the wake of the Son of Sam murders.
- [60:45]
John
Right.
- [60:45]
Nick
They get a very kind of short and simple response saying that, look, if this. If these murders involved sexual mutilation and were committed under a full moon, then these are likely satanic crimes. And I think that the inexperienced West Memphis PD and their inspectors took that to mean. Well, the experts are telling us that if they were sexually mutilated and remember, they're going off the. They're looking at the injuries, and we get in. We don't need to get into any animal predation or any of that here right today. But they're looking at it at the time, and they're going, well, this is what the experts told us. And it looks like there was sexual mutilation. So these must be satanic crimes. And so they're, they're rolling with that.
- [61:38]
John
Again, I think this is where the, the crime is going to be talked about forever because you have three individuals and all three had different mindsets. I mean, Jesse, Ms. Kelly, he had two brain cells fighting each other. And so to view this crime as this, these three boys set out to do a ritualistic killing. I, I keep. I feel like a broken record by saying it could be both happening at the same time. This. If the West Memphis Three are guilty of this crime, it could have been a ritualistic killing. In the mind of Damien Echols and the pawns in this killing, Jason Baldwin and Jesse Misskelley didn't understand the importance of some of the actions that were taken in the actions of this crime. Yeah. Does that make any goddamn sense?
- [62:38]
Nick
Well, no, I, It. It definitely does that. I'm going through some of this John Douglas stuff, because what's interesting is you have this Satanic crimes unit telling them that it probably is, and you have the FBI telling them the opposite. That.
- [62:55]
John
Right.
- [62:56]
Nick
That is not a satanic crime. And in case. And in fact, it's. It's an individual that we spoke of several times on the show, recommended his book, Ken Lanning, who has a conversation with John Douglas, saying, yeah, I spoke with the prosecutor in the West Memphis Three case. They asked me if it was a satanic crime and told me that they were pursuing it as satanic murder. And Ken Lanning, who's the expert on this type of stuff, tells the prosecutor, I think you're letting the theory, this theory drive your investigation.
- [63:34]
John
Yeah. And I think that's a misstep by law enforcement. But there's so much arrogance in this case. There's arrogance on the prosecution's part. I don't think there was arrogance on the defense team's part, but there was definitely arrogance on the suspects. I think you can look back at footage and watch footage of Damien Echols and go, you're on trial for murder of three 8 year old boys and you are laughing, smiling, blowing kisses to people. There's evidence that he was trying to make contact with the victim's parents during the trial. He could be totally innocent of the crime. But in, in those situations and you just watch the documentary and what's so fascinating to me is you have a documentary that they had 400 and some hours of footage and then the first documentary, it's like the suspects come off looking strange. There's a lot of strange behavior and the, the amount of giggling. If I was on trial even as an 18 year old and I think we have this lore that, that Damian Echols was this outsider and he was, he was just smarter than the average person in that area really. He didn't, he didn't even attend high school. You know, he was on disability. He was on full disability. And why was he on full disability? Because he stated to the state that he was homicidal and suicidal. And again, go back to the five stints and mental facilities the year before the crimes. But if I'm on trial for three 8 year old boys, I'm not laughing about nothing. And I think I told myself I wasn't going to get upset. Here I am. You can hand me another beer, Sam.