West Memphis 3 /// Discussion /// Part 2

Summary

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True Crime Garage – West Memphis 3 /// Discussion /// Part 2

Release Date: May 8, 2024
Hosts: Nic & The Captain

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Episode Overview

In this dense, emotionally charged episode, Nic and The Captain revisit the haunting and controversial case of the West Memphis Three, continuing their deep-dive discussion in Part 2. They interrogate the narrative surrounding the 1993 murder of three young boys in West Memphis, Arkansas, for which Damien Echols, Jason Baldwin, and Jessie Misskelley were convicted. Over the course of more than an hour, the hosts tackle false confessions, disputed evidence, evolving suspects, legal maneuvers, the tangled role of police, the ongoing fight for evidence testing, and the ethical vacuum around seeking real answers and justice for the victims.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Nature of Confession and Youthful Vulnerability

[01:49]

• Nic raises how pressure can lead young or vulnerable suspects to false confessions—many assume their innocence will be "sorted out eventually," but this often doesn't happen.
• “A lot of this, and we've heard this time and time again with persons that even offer up a false confession… there's so much pressure from these guys for me to say that I did it, that eventually I just gave in…they're going to figure out eventually that I didn’t do it even though I said I did.” – Nic ([01:49])
• The Captain notes there's never an excuse for taunting victims’ families, regardless of guilt or innocence.

Injuries, Evidence, and “Levels” of Crime

[03:09–05:41]

• The hosts dissect the ongoing debate over what injuries were caused by animal predation versus by human hands, their timing, and their implications for the investigation.
• Submersion of victims in water for over 15 hours caused evidence loss and confusion around sexual assault claims.
• Mystery remains: Are missing clothes, unique bindings, and the placement of clothing ritualistic, or merely signs of multiple perpetrators or staging?

The Alford Plea: Why Did They Take It?

[07:06–14:35]

• The Captain expresses deep frustration with narratives spun by both the defense and prosecution—especially around the circumstances leading to the Alford plea (a legal deal in which the accused maintain innocence but admit the prosecution has enough evidence for conviction).
• “I think the problem is...the amount of lying from both sides, law enforcement, the defense, these three individuals...it just goes back to that—we have three victims that aren’t going to get justice.” – The Captain ([20:57])
• Nic rebuts claims that the defense simply acted out of fear of execution, given Arkansas's moratorium on the death penalty at the time, but acknowledges the psychological burden of 18 years served and the court system’s slow “wheels of justice.”
• The hosts debate whether their acceptance of the Alford plea means innocence/guilt or just human desperation to leave prison.
• Jason Baldwin’s decision is seen as the “most to lose, least to gain”—highlighting the moral and personal dilemmas within the plea structure.

Who Really Solves Crimes?

[15:18–16:21]

• Nic and The Captain reflect on the heartbreaking conversations with victims’ families who hope coverage will drive solutions. Both stress: Only law enforcement can truly “solve” crimes, not podcasters or the wrongfully convicted.

The Fight for DNA Testing and Evidence Issues

[16:32–21:54]

• Judge Laser allowed post-release evidence testing at the defense’s own expense, because the state’s position is the case is “adjudicated.”
• The Captain questions why the defense focuses on retesting inconclusive ligature evidence instead of the more compelling potential semen stains on the jeans, which could identify a perpetrator.
• Both fear forensic contamination but agree: “I…wouldn’t go well don’t test it. Right?” – Nick ([19:16])
• Larger issue: The Alford plea also let Arkansas off the hook for potential financial compensation if the three were later exonerated.

Narrative Manipulation and Public Opinion

[22:16–26:00]

• The Captain is critical of “the spin,” especially shifting narratives from the defense about alternative suspects—e.g., originally naming a stepfather, later suggesting someone else.
• Nic argues the “domino effect” of lies and poor lawyering railroaded the three—“If Vicki Hutchinson would not have lied to police, are these guys firmly on the radar?” ([22:59])

The Trouble with Confessions

[32:14–33:13]

• The hosts mull the impact of the multiple confessions by Misskelley (five in total), considering the credibility issues, recantations, and psychological factors.
• The jailhouse confession by Michael Carson is dissected as well—he passed a polygraph and had nothing to gain at the time, but recanted later citing drug use.

Multiple Community Murders and Policing

[36:54–38:35]

• Nic sketches a chilling backdrop: six other unsolved child murders in surrounding counties in the years leading up to the West Memphis murders. DNA could potentially link cases.
• The handling of possible suspects Chris Morgan and Brian Holland is scrutinized—both fled West Memphis right after the killings, failed polygraphs, but were ignored by local PD.

Systemic Police Failures and Public Corruption

[48:49–54:45]

• Nic and The Captain harshly critique the West Memphis PD for mishandling the case:
  • Failure to collaborate with larger agencies.
  • Tainted jury pool through media leaks (notably, publication of Misskelley’s confession in the Commercial Appeal).
  • “I sit here… and I cannot for a second get over the piss poor job that I think that the West Memphis Police Department did in this case.” – Nic ([45:51])
• The Commercial Appeal receives probable payment from the department for exclusive confession details—a move that fundamentally poisoned the possibility of a fair trial.

Failure of Justice for the Real Victims

[54:45–55:33]

• The Captain delivers an emotional closing:
  • “But at the end of the day, this world let down and continues to let down Christopher Byers, Michael Moore and Stevie Branch. And I’m sorry for that. And I hope that one day the world will make it right.”
• Nic recommends A Harvest of Innocence by Dan Stidham as essential reading for anyone struggling to understand the case’s complexities and moral grey areas.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Confessions:
  • "…if they're Innocent. I would, I don't condone that kind of behavior. But I don't know that ... these things don't sway me strongly whether they're innocent or guilty." – Nic ([02:49])
• On Ritualism and Meaning:
  • "The knots suggest more than one perpetrator. Okay, so again, is it more of a ritualistic thing for one of the murderers or less for the other? I mean, I think these, this is such gray area..." – The Captain ([06:24])
• On Narrative Spin:
  • "…the way people spin things. And again, the way their teams spun this web was he's in grave danger of dying in prison, so we have to take this deal…" – The Captain ([11:55])
• On the Unending Questions:
  • "But one thing I do know about this Alfred plea, it was an all or nothing deal. It was all three of you except or you're not getting the deal...even if, let's say, one of them didn't want to go along with it..." – Nick ([13:12])
• On Law Enforcement Incompetence:
  • "…Of course, look, I'm not trying to be on my high horse here, but I ... cannot for a second get over the piss poor job that I think that the West Memphis Police Department did in this case." – Nic ([45:51])
• Empathy for Victims:
  • "Why don’t we ever speak of their names? Why, why don’t we ever show empathy for their families? ... Those boys were 8 years old. They lost everything." – The Captain ([44:00 approx])
• On the Larger Failure:
  • "But at the end of the day, this world let down and continues to let down Christopher Byers, Michael Moore and Stevie Branch. And I'm sorry for that...Until we do that, we have all failed them." – The Captain ([54:45])

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Important Segments & Timestamps

• False Confessions & Pressure – [01:49], [02:14]
• Animal Predation/Debates over Evidence – [03:09], [04:44]
• Alford Plea & Strategic Dilemmas – [07:06]–[14:35]
• Role of Podcasters vs. Police – [15:18]–[16:21]
• Current DNA Testing Initiatives – [16:32]–[21:54]
• Manipulation, Defense Narratives – [22:16]–[26:00]
• Multiple Confessions / Michael Carson – [32:14]–[33:13]
• Other Area Murders & Alternative Suspects – [36:54]–[39:46]
• West Memphis Police Critique – [48:49]–[54:45]
• Closing Thoughts: On Justice and the Victims – [54:45]

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Key Takeaways

• The West Memphis Three case remains a tangled mess, with both sides (Prosecution/Defense) spinning narratives to fit their goals.
• Evidence (including potential DNA) is marred by doubts, possible contamination, and missed investigative opportunities.
• The "truth" remains elusive: even the hosts, despite years of study, admit they cannot definitively say if the three are innocent or guilty.
• Deep systemic failings—within police, courts, media—have likely forever impeded justice for the three boys murdered in 1993.
• The episode is as much about the search for justice as it is about the corrosive effects of uncertainty and mismanagement on all parties involved.

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Final Thoughts

This episode is essential listening for anyone interested in the West Memphis Three, wrongful convictions, judicial ethics, or the emotional toll of unresolved cases. Nic and The Captain weave personal frustration, empathy, and resignation while offering a candid, unsentimental look at a tragedy that continues to haunt true crime—reminding us always to remember the real victims: Christopher Byers, Michael Moore, and Stevie Branch.

Transcript

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[Nick]

Picture this. It's the end of a long week. You're unwinding in the tub, listening to your favorite true crime podcast, and then chronic hives come back again in the middle of the episode. What a wet blanket looks like another spell of itchy, swollen, red or skin colored hives. If you have chronic spontaneous urticaria or csu, there may be a different treatment option. Worried about your chronic hives interrupting our next episode? Learn [e-mail] Garage West Memphis 3 West Memphis 333

[Narrator/Announcer]

Damien Eccles and Jason Baldwin

[Nick]

Jesse Ms. Kelly who West Memphis 3.

[Narrator/Announcer]

They were just 8 years old. Stephen Branch, Michael Moore and Christopher Byers found murdered hog tied and naked in a drainage ditch in West Memphis.

[Nick]

West Memphis 3.

[Narrator/Announcer]

The state stands behind the conviction.

[Nick]

A lot of this, and we've heard this time and time again with persons that even offer up a false confession to police that they just, they're hey, there's so much pressure from these guys for me to say that I did it, that eventually I just gave in and said I did it because I thought, well, they're going to figure out eventually that I didn't do it even though I said I did.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

And you wonder, given that the, the mindset of an 18 year old, of a 16 year old and a 17 year old. Look, I, I wish I was smarter today. I'm definitely smarter today, especially in my behavior than I was when I was 16, 17 and 18 years old.

[Captain]

Correct.

[Nick]

It's, it's not a far stretch for me to believe that maybe all three of them, or at least individually, that some of these guys thought, well, this will all get sorted out at some point. At some point they're going to realize I didn't do this.

[Captain]

Yeah, but there's no excuse for trying to taunt the victim's parents.

[Nick]

Oh no, no, no. I'm not saying, I'm not saying that they should do that. But I, I'm saying, I guess what I'm saying is if they're Innocent. I would, I don't condone that kind of behavior. But I don't know that a lot of these things, a lot of these things don't sway me strongly whether they're innocent or guilty.

[Captain]

No, no. And that, and that's the problem.

[Nick]

And, and it's like the turtle thing, right? Like the animal predation with like. And they go on like there different sources, they go on to all kinds of different animals. Likely that that is animal predation. And I'll have somebody that will be angry with me and go, Nick, look at the science. Of course it's animal, animal predation. The reason why I don't dive too deep into that aspect of this crime is if a turtle is responsible or some other kind of animal is responsible for some of the injuries post mortem on these boys, that does not tell me who killed them. Right.

[Captain]

It's correct.

[Nick]

It doesn't tell me who killed them. Other than the only thing that it is suggestive of is that the confession that they got that it was a satanic crime and that one would expect them to be sexually mutilated. Like, like that unit out of New York told the west Memphis PD that it's not a satanic crime. That's the only thing that's suggestive of. It doesn't tell you who killed these boys.

[Captain]

Yeah, but this crime is different because it's not like the Jill Dando case. Right. Jill Dando is shot on the front steps of her house and that's it. This crime had levels to it. There was some form of sexual assault. There was.

[Nick]

Which again though, that's another detail in this case that is persons have varying opinions of. And some of them are very strong opinions.

[Captain]

Well, what I'm saying is there's levels in the sense of like.

[Nick]

No, I mean the sexual assault, the sexual assault aspect of this. You, if you lined up 10 so called experts on this case and asked them if the boys or one or all three were sexually assaulted, you would get a different answer.

[Captain]

Well, and I think we would have a better answer if they weren't submerged in water for 15 hours or more. More than 15 hours. And that. But there's levels to this because what do we know? We know that there were killed in the woods. Now you have to question where they live. Lord, there where they. Did they just happen to go into the woods and stumble upon an individual that they shouldn't or multiple individuals? You can make all these arguments about what markings were done by animals, but I believe that there was some markings done and law Enforcement believes this and a lot of experts believe some of the brutal nature of this crime took place before they were put into water and took place by the hands of a human and not animals.

[Nick]

Of course.

[Captain]

And then you have.

[Nick]

They would have had to. Yeah, no doubt.

[Captain]

Then you have the disrobing of, of the victims. Was this done before the crime started? Was this done after? Then you have the way the clothes were placed into the water, wrapped around, on, on sticks. That, that took some level of intelligence. And then the binding, the fact that they're not bound right to left, they're bound right to right, left to left. Does that mean something?

[Nick]

Some of the items of clothing missing from the scene, does that mean anything? Is that suggestive that they were killed elsewhere and then. Then discarded of here? Or does that suggest that the killer took some of these items with them and they were killed near where they found.

[Captain]

And again, like I said, because I think the knots suggest more than one perpetrator. Okay, so again, is it more of a ritualistic thing for one of the murderers or less for the other? I mean, I think these, this is such gray area that it's hard for an expert to say definitively that this is some ritualistic killing or, or not. I mean, this, this case just bothers the. Out of me.

[Nick]

Well, and I'm glad. I, I shouldn't say that. I'm glad that it does, but I think that makes you a very normal human being. Like, I don't know that. I don't know how anybody could not be bothered by this case.

[Captain]

And I think it's just, I mean, again, there's, there's arrogance throughout this case. I mean, people that think that they're a hundred percent innocent, sometimes they stand on this hill of arrogance and it's just knocking off, have a, a little bit of an open mind that you, you possibly are wrong. And it's so frustrating now because with the court stating that Damien Echols contest evidence, which is really strange because if you go back to the Alfred, plead the Alford plea bas that you're going to leave this case alone, you admitted that the prosecution had enough evidence to convict you of this crime. You get to maintain your innocence, but after that you have to leave this alone. This case drives me insane because everybody can sit there and say, well, they're innocent. And proof that they're innocent is now Damien Echols is trying to fight the court to test new items. They're not new items. And, and I would, I would say it would be some form of evidence that he's innocent. If Damien Echols was arguing test whatever you want to and do it on your dime, because that's the other thing that people don't understand in this case. They want to do it. Damien Echols and his team want to do it on their dimensions, and therefore, they're the ones that get the results. So then they're the ones that get to relay the results to the public and to the courts. And that's what happened back in. I think it was 2011, and we talked about this on the off the record, and then I'll jump off my soapbox, but one of the things that we were arguing on off the record was you were stating that Damien Eccles could have been killed by the state. And so instead of waiting a few months because he was going to get another trial, that's actually not true. And there's multiple reasons why that's not true. And there's multiple reasons why Damien Echols and his team knew it wasn't true. Because one, in 2000, I believe it was 2006, Arkansas stopped all executions. And their. Their process of executing prisoners was under review. They didn't cross their T's and dot their eyes until, like, 2017. So during the time that he was trying to get out and was offering up an Alfred plea to the state, there was no chance that the state would have killed him because they weren't killing anybody because the whole process was under review. And then on top of that, his appeals. And when you have things in the court system, they don't kill you when you have, you know, appeals and processes going on in the court. So this whole narrative that they spun of, well, I had to take this plea deal because they're going to try to kill him. Is this a false narrative all the way around?

[Nick]

Well, okay, so I'll. I will have a rebuttal here because you're saying something that I said was untrue.

[Captain]

No, I'm saying it was untrue by Damien Echols team and by the West Memphis 3 team. They were making this argument that, well, we would have liked to keep fighting in court because their whole thing was, we got enough evidence that proves that it was one of the stepfathers, and we're going to prove that to you in a couple months. But instead of waiting to try to prove that, they end up taking this plea deal and the. The excuse that they gave the public and the excuse that they gave their supporters or, or, well, Damen was. He could have been killed by the state.

[Nick]

I mean, his original Execution date was set for 2000. So he. That has already, you know, he was already beyond that date, which complicates things for the person that's sitting on death row once you're past that date.

[Captain]

Yeah, but again, you would know if you're on death row and you know that in 2006, that they suspended all executions and that it was under review. You would. And it was under review at the time that you took this plea deal. You can't sit there and use that as an excuse because. And his appeals weren't exhausted yet.

[Nick]

But what. I don't understand what the point is. What does that mean? What does any of that mean? Like the.

[Captain]

Well, I think it's kind of.

[Nick]

Guess what? There's two. That. There's two. Yeah, but listen, there's two kinds of people that want to get out of prison. Innocent people and guilty people. Okay. So I don't know that that proves anything either to. Either way to me.

[Captain]

No, I just think it's a situation that people have to understand in this case. Is that the way whether you think they're innocent or whether you think they're guilty, the way people spin things. And again, don't. Don't you believe that the way their teams spun this web was he's in grave danger of dying in prison, so we have to take this deal. But if they were so sure that this evidence was going to point to the actual murderer, why would you pack your tents up and go home?

[Nick]

Well, it was. It was 13 months away, I believe.

[Captain]

I don't. I don't believe it was that long. But again, I think the problem is,

[Nick]

I mean, we both know from plenty of experience that the wheels of justice, they move, but they move very slowly.

[Captain]

Very slowly.

[Nick]

Right. And these, again, they had already spent 18 years in prison. And I. I mean, that's. That's where I leave that portion of the case to me, like that We. And I don't mean our discussion. I love the. For the sake of discussion. It's a good discussion. But for me, internally, when I think and review this case at who may have done it. And I'm glad you're angry. You should be angry. Because the way that I see it, this case is, yes, it's been adjudicated, but it's an unsolved case. And we. I believe that we sit here over 30 years later not knowing who the real killer or killers of these. These little boys, little tiny boys is. And that angers me as well. So I like the heated discussion, but for me, internally, I'm always left this as there are two kinds of people that want to be out of prison and those persons are both innocent and guilty people. All, every, everybody wants to be out of prison. This was the, I'll spin it a different way because maybe that's what Eccles camp was saying. But one thing I do know about this Alfred plea, it was an all or nothing deal. It was all three of you except or you're not getting the deal. And so when you look at it from Ms. Kelly's situation and you look at it from Baldwin's situation, even if, let's say, one of them didn't want to go along with it, like, so Jason Baldwin's the best example, right? Because he, by accepting this Alfred plea, he has the least out of the three to gain and the most to lose. Yet he accepts it. And a large part of that was, well, these two other guys, they already accepted it. And I, I don't want to be the one that stops this from happening. The one of the three that stops this from happening.

[Captain]

No, I just, again, I stated earlier that I felt let down by some of the individuals that have covered this case. The more I dive into this case, the more I'm let down by the people that are presenting the information. I'm let down by this, the criminal justice system. And I, I'm, I'm also let down. And maybe it's wrong, but I feel like I'm let down by the West Memphis three because they're also the ones that said, hey, let us out because we'll, we'll fight and we'll, we'll figure this out. And some people could say, well dummy, that's what Damien Echols is trying to do. And I, my response to them would be like, dummy, that's not what's happening.

[Nick]

Yeah, but Damien Echols and Jason Baldwin and Jesse Misskelley, they don't solve crimes. They don't, you know what I mean? Like, that's the same sad conversation that I have to have sometimes with family members of victims for Porch Light or even for True Crime Garage. This, they'll contact me a month or two later and go, what's going on with, you know, I was really hoping that the porch light would, would solve this and I was really hoping that True Crime Garage would light a fire under the detectives asses and they would, they would really get to work on this case. And the sad conversation that I have to have with that grieving mother of the victim who's crying on the other end of the phone or that I'm holding their hand across the table as they sob. The sad part of that conversation is I have to tell them, Porch Light, as good and as much as we try, we. We don't solve crimes. True Crime Garage. We do not solve crimes. The only. The only persons with the power to absolutely solve the crime and make an arrest are law enforcement.

[Captain]

No, I understand that, but you're also not calling these people up and telling them that you're going to solve the crime. You're not calling these people up and saying, hey, if you do X, Y and Z, for me, this wait, because

[Nick]

I'm right, but it does again, but it wouldn't matter if I said that or not. It's. It's not the case at the end of the day. And as far as the Echo situation goes with the. The person that I don't think that has let you down is Judge Laser, who has been the one who has decided that, yes, we will allow testing. Yeah, the state. The state will allow Eccles in his camp to test this evidence. Now, the reason why it has to be paid for on the private end is because, again, something we've said a dozen times today, as far as the state of Arkansas is concerned, this. The case is adjudicated. They're not going to pay to test anything. So Judge Laser has made the determination that Eccles in his camp can pay for it. The reason being is that, like, I can't walk in there to any judge in Arkansas and say, you know what? I'm. I represent the Porch Light Project. I represent True Crime Garage. We're here to set the record straight. We just want to help these poor people. We have raised all this money through our beer fund and through donations of our very loyal and awesome listeners that we. We can afford to test this evidence. Judge, would you allow me to test it? No. The law says that only a person that has been accused of the crime can be. Can be involved in the defense. Right.

[Captain]

And essentially, it's also the state is saying that you can only test it. That what they were originally saying is, well, if you were in jail and you were found guilty and you're in jail, we'll let you test it. And Damien Echols, I applaud him for saying, hey, look, you found me guilty of this crime. I should still have the right to test this, this evidence if it could point to my innocence. And so that is the fight that he's putting on. My argument to him would be, why not test everything? And we have a pair of pants that we think that there's some semen, possible semen on the pants. Why aren't the, that should be the number one thing that people are screaming at the top of the, the mountains to test? Because that could actually get us some answers. If you have a victim that has a possible semen stain on their pants, we, we should test that there. They want to test ligatures and things that have already been tested and have already resulted in no result in saying, well maybe we'll get a different result if we tested a different way and maybe they will. But I still don't think that's going to solve anything because if you, you have so much, you got contamination at the crime scene, you have contamination. They, they thought this evidence was lost and we're going to believe that this evidence was not contaminated in any way.

[Nick]

I don't even go down that road because then, then the next step to that is going well don't even test it right. Like I'm with you. I there, I have suspicions that the evidence is probably contaminated. Yeah, but I, but I also wouldn't go well don't test it right. You know, and, and so do, do I have high hopes for this new developing story, new developing angle of this long ongoing 31 year old story? No, I don't have high hopes for it. But you know, and I get what you're saying, that from the Eccles angle it looks like they took the easy, cheap way out. And I'm not going to lie to you, I, I would love it would, it would be, it would do me some favors internally if they would have rode the storm out and they got to the hearings to present this other evidence, new evidence, whatever you want to call it, that if they would have, if they would have rode the storm out, whether it was 2 months, 3 months, 13 months or what, what have you, it would be better for no Nick Edwards of True Crime Garage if they did that. Yeah, but again, and, and I'm not trying to use the walk a mile in their shoes excuse because I don't think it's an excuse. I think that I don't, I can't have a great opinion on them taking the easy way out. But I say this, the state of Arkansas also took the easy way out. That's the whole reason for the Alford plea. The whole reason for this Alford plea is to go, well, we probably got this wrong. There's could be some new evidence come to light that suggests that these guys are innocent. Let's cut our losses now and let them out before we have to compensate all three of them for spending over 18 years of their lives in prison.

[Captain]

Well, and it goes even deeper than that. It's the judge. If the, if they would have waited a year, it probably would have been a different judge and that judge would have never allowed the offer plead, period. And maybe they knew that and well, and then people make an argument that the judge only allowed this Alfred plead because they were going to be reelected or, or needed the publicity or, or whatever it is. But I, that's, I think that's my frustration in the, this case particularly is the amount of lying from both sides, law enforcement, the defense, the, you know, these three individuals that were convicted of the crime, the amount of lying that they've done and it just goes back to that. We have three victims that aren't going to get justice and their families are not going to get justice. Drives me absolutely insane.

[Nick]

It was Judge Burnett that kept a stranglehold on this case for so many years. And it was only until he released in, relinquished that power and that authority over this case that they were able to start having these much more civilized talks of right coming to some kind of result.

[Captain]

I hate to harp on this, but they stated we have all this DNA evidence and we can prove their innocence and we can, we have a suspect. And now, however many years later, what, 13 years later, they're saying mom, we don't think it's that guy. We think it's a different person now. So the things that they, that, you know, this narrative that these, these, these poor little time, these poor little teenage boys were just thrown under the bus and railroaded. I just don't think that's true. That's not a true narrative of the story. I think that's the narrative that people want to present and that's just not true. That doesn't mean that they are guilty of these murders.

[Nick]

But I, I think that's open to interpretation. I think that the many people are going to have varying opinions on that part of the case because you have somebody like me who I do think that they were in fact railroaded. I sit here and I go, well if Vicki Hutchinson would not have lied to police, are these guys firmly on the radar in the way that they, they ended up being? I, I also wonder, had they not, had they not practically drugged this confession out of, out of a, a 17 year old boy with a, with a argumentatively 72 IQ, right, this bad confession out of this kid that would they have even made these arrests? I, I, I, it's like, it's like this domino effect of one bad thing happening after another that leads to a conviction of three different individuals. And, and remember we talked about this when we covered it the first time. If, if Jesse Ms. Kelly's confession gets completely tossed out, do they, do you convict Eccles and Baldwin? And then on top of that, had Baldwin's attorney been smart enough and made the right moves, those two wouldn't have been in the courtroom at the same time altogether. And if I'm Baldwin's attorney, I'm doing everything that I possibly can to get his trial to go before Eccles because it's kind of like a tag along situation. Like oh, if Eccles is guilty then Baldwin has to be guilty based off of the confession and that they're best friends and that they're on trial together. Like it this, it gets very complicated very quickly.

[Captain]

Yeah, but again the narrative is that the police interrogated this kid and got a confession and that's part of the story. But what about the other four confessions that weren't interrogated? And people that think that these police officers just went down this path with blinders on. Every time that boy wanted to confess, they were there asking questions, recording it and trying to get to the bottom of what really happened that day.

[Nick]

But the flip of that would be every time he's offered a deal to testify against Baldwin and Echols, he does not. He turns it down. You see what I mean? Like I, I get, I, I get what you're saying and I get like the other confessions trouble me too. I, I, for them to be innocent and me to believe that 100 I would it would be so much easier if he never had all these other confessions. That being misskeli. But it's again when, when offered the deal and this happened on at least two occasions, he's offered a deal to testify against them to for a reduced sentence.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

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[Captain]

And people that think they're guilty will always point to the fact that they pled guilty essentially to get out of prison. And I'd argue that I don't think that's Again, innocent people want out of prison just as bad as guilty people want out of prison. So I think your point is very valid on that. One of the problems I have and one of the reasons why this is a red light case is because we don't have just one confession by Jesse Ms. Kelly. We have five, but we have confessions depending on if you want to believe them or not. We have confessions by all three suspects. I don't think the okay, Jesse Ms. Kelly didn't confess. I don't think that was the nail in the coffin. And I don't know if you were able to ever review the notes that the jury made, and they would make a list of pros and cons. One of the number one things that they thought pointed to the guilt of Damien Echols and Jason Baldwin was the

[Nick]

confession of Michael Carson, which, which he later recanted.

[Captain]

Yeah, and that's again, every little point, whether you think they're innocent or guilty. You can start arguing these points. Like, people that think that they're innocent say, well, well, Michael Carson, that's a confession because he's a jailhouse snitch. And I always thought he was a jailhouse snitch. So I was like, wait, well, this confession's right. He's, he, he had something to gain from this. Okay, then you dive down the rabbit hole. Let's look into Michael Carson. And you go, okay, Michael Carson was not in prison at the time that he went to police. He did not get any deal from law enforcement, who is actually out of prison, sitting there watching on the news, them talking about the West Memphis Three. And he told his dad, hey, I was in prison with Jason Baldwin. And he told me what happened. And he told his father the details. And his father said, we got to go to law enforcement. And he said, I, I don't want to. And he goes, no, we need to go. And then they took a polygraph test. Again, you're going to have arguments on whether a polygraph test were good or bad, but he passed the polygraph test. And so they put him on the stand. And then people can sit there and dissect his, his movements and whether he's nervous or not. And then there's the argument later that if you think they're innocent, you go, well, Michael Carson recanted his statements. From everything I read, he has apologized to Jason Baldwin. And his excuse was, hey, I was on a lot of drugs back then, but nowhere have I heard him say the statements that he made at court weren't true. And again, but those. There's a million points of this case. And that's why I just hate it so much. Like, I, I, I dive into this case so much, and I have to remind myself, this is not the case we're working on for next week, but it's those three boys, Christopher Byers, Michael Moore, Stevie Branch. And it's just like. And I know there's going to be a bunch of people that are listening right now that go, wow, the captain thinks they're guilty. No, I don't know. I wish I knew. I wish I could stand on a hill of arrogance and ignorance and just tell You. I think they're guilty or I think they're innocent, but I can't. And, and I, and I'm bothered by Damien Echols. I think he has this idea that he can manipulate people and lie. And I think he lied on the stand. I think there's evidence of that in the documentaries. I think he constantly lies to people to get attention. I think that's who he is. I think he wants to be larger than life. I think we made him larger than life and I think he's a liar. I don't know if he murdered these boys or not, though. And I would love to get to the bottom of it.

[Nick]

The way that the testing could get to the bottom of it is again, I preface this by saying, like I said earlier and like I said on, off the record, I don't have high hopes. I'm usually a glass half full kind of guy. I'm not incredibly optimistic about this new developing portion of this ongoing story. But where it could. Let's. I'll be glass half full for a while. Okay. I'll try to, I'll examine it from a different angle. There are, to this day, 31 years later, and in fact, actually some of this information is older than that. There are other unsolved child murders in that area that if, if this evidence were to align with any evidence in any of those cases, well, that would be pretty powerful, right?

[Captain]

Or if it was an individual that wasn't supposed to be there at that time and it wasn't one of these three boys. It wasn't one of the step parents.

[Nick]

Christina Marie Pipkin was last seen May 4th. And, and notice, notice some of the dates on this stuff. May 4, 1991, in Hickory Ridge. She was 9 years old. She disappeared while selling jewelry door to door for a school fundraiser. Her body was found five days later in a ditch five miles outside of town. She had apparently drowned and police say she drowned. Her death is the result of foul play. May 21, 1992, Geneva Smith, age 13, reported missing. She left home to catch a school bus and was never seen alive again. June 1, 1992, her badly decomposed body was found in the St. Francis River. The body was in such poor condition that a cause of death cannot be determined. It's being investigated as a homicide and has been since June of 1992. October of 1992, Jardina Jones cross goes missing on the 13th. Her body's found the next day. She was a 10th grader in high school. She died from three puncture wounds in lacerations to the face and neck. These. These are leading up to the arrest of Jesse Misskelley, Damien Echols, and Jason Baldwin. They had six mysterious unsolved child murders in this immediate area going on at the time. Now, these. These are four different counties, but they are. They are all neighboring counties.

[Captain]

They're all connected.

[Nick]

And so if the. If the evidence comes back and says something to suggest that one of these other crimes is tied to the murder of these three boys, that could be something powerful. The other thing, too, and this. This is a bit of a. Even more of a leap. I want to be clear that it would be a leap, right, if that were to be the case, but trying to be glass half full here a little bit. We talk about problems with this case go back to Chris Morgan and Brian Holland, who left West Memphis together for Oceanside, California on May 10th. So four days after the bodies of the boys were discovered, right? They're picked up May 17th. They take a polygraph examination administered by the California police. So a whole different entity, a whole different law enforcement agency are administering this polygraph exam. And if I don't want anybody getting confused out there, we have pointed out time and time again the problems, the pros and cons, with the polygraph exam. So don't think that we're living, dying, and breathing that these are the polygraph exams, are the end all, be all of homicide investigations.

[Captain]

This is a barometer.

[Nick]

But. But the reason why I'm bringing up the polygraph examination of these two boys who were picked up in California, who just so happened to be leave West Memphis four days after the bodies are discovered, is that according to the California police, they tell the West Memphis pd, look, these guys, we gave them a test, and they showed signs of deception when they denied involvement in the murders of those three boys. Now, the flip of that is they give West Memphis PD Gives Jesse Misskelley a polygraph examination. He shows signs of deception, in their opinion, and their response to that is, he's lying his ass off. Let's grill him until he confesses. Meanwhile, they don't bother to make a second phone call about Christopher Morgan or Brian Holland out in California. It's. It's so weird that you have those two.

[Captain]

Well, I thought those were the boys that they eventually got to confess out in California, and then that wasn't allowed in the trial. They weren't allowed to hear that.

[Nick]

Exactly. It was. It was barred. They were not allowed to use that evidence at trial because, of course the defense is going to put that up if they're worth their weight.

[Captain]

Yeah. And I, I don't know if you will allow me just, just to wrap up my thoughts on this. Five minutes. Less than five minutes. I think this case is so difficult, but I think if you're only watching Paradise Lost, if you're only reading and watching certain things that, that point to the fact that they're innocent, you're not doing your due diligence. I think there's individuals like William Ramsey, Roberta Glass, Burn after Reading, Gary Meese and Lisa o' Brien that have made some very valid points. And some of these individuals, I believe, are experts on this case. If my knowledge of this case is a 2 out of a 10 or 3 out of a 10, some of these individuals have a lot more extensive knowledge of this case. And I think if you're on the fence or if you think they're innocent or guilty, I, I think these are individuals worth looking into some of their thoughts and some of the evidence that they have presented to the public. Again, the, the genes with possible semen stains on them that needs to be tested. I don't know if Damien Echols is responsible for this crime or not, but I know that an individual named Alistair Crowley was brought up at his trial. And Alistair Crowley, in my opinion, is a horrible pile of shit. He also talks in his book Magic about the sacrificing of a child and how that would bring you power of a God. And the, the best age to kill a child is it would be a male child at the age of eight. At the trial, Damien Echols claims that he knows nothing about him, even though he's writing his name down on pieces of paper and, and, and has, has no clue about him. Well, just she. A year ago on a podcast, Damian Echel said two individuals that he's never met that have really influenced his life or were mentors to him were Alistair Crowley and Joel Olsteen. My problem with comments like this and also if you watch a lot of Damen Echel's interviews, my big issue with him is, okay, even if you're innocent of the crime, where's the sympathy? Where's the empathy for the victims? I understand that if you're innocent of these crimes, that you're also a victim. But you got lucky. You got people that believed in you. You had millions of people that came and donated money to try to fight your case. You had celebrities come out of the woodworks. And when he is interviewed, he doesn't state the victims names. The true victims names, Christopher Byers, Michael Moore and Stevie Branch. Those boys were 8 years old. They lost everything. You lost some years maybe you lost rose petal glasses that you could look at the world through. You lost something too if you're innocent. But why don't we ever speak of their names? Why, why don't we ever show empathy for their families? And, and also it's okay to say, hey, I was a kid and I just thought they're going to end up getting the right guy one day. And, and those actions of my past, I, I, I feel bad for and I need to make amends for because the taunting of the family, that's just not acceptable. Or the laughing about the, these crimes. I understand you're 18 years old and you're naive and you're underdeveloped and under educated. But I just can't get past some of that stuff. I just think and, and then to know that this individual, that, okay, if you're innocent of the crime, then Aleister Crowley has nothing to do with these murders. But you know, if you're, this, if he's one of your mentors, you know that he has made the statement that killing an 8 year old boy brings you power. You just keep that stuff out of your, out of your mouth because it's disrespectful. And you know the boys were killed on the full moon. And so then you have a whole chapter in your book about the power of moon water. I just think it's stuff like that where it's like, I don't know, there's people that think they're guilty that says Damen Echols is just taunting everybody. And I don't know if he is or isn't, but it's like that's, that's why my opinion of him is not highly, because I, if he's innocent, he's a victim as well. Like you said, maybe I should walk a mile in his shoes and maybe I'd feel differently. But I think if I was wrongfully convicted of these crimes, I would not only try to tell my story, but try to tell the victim, victim stories as well.

[Nick]

Like I said earlier, I'm not going to fault anybody for being angry or frustrated in this case. This is a case if you don't get angered or frustrated one way or another or every which way, which I think you and I are frustrated every which way, then I don't think you have a pulse about this case. Right. And so again I'll, I'll be glass half full and say that I hope that this evidence does do something and at the very least, maybe, or even more so, not just in this case, but some of the other cases that we've just mentioned. I hate to see other child victim cases still to this day being unsolved. And we're talking about cases that were 91, 92 and 93. And it's, it's, you know, their parents are, are passing away without getting any answers or any real answers in the West Memphis three case, in my opinion. And then, but I will go a different route and say that the major issue I have with this case is the West Memphis Police Department's handling of this case. I, I have seen agencies across the years that we've covered so many cases over 700 episodes and I've seen a case handled every which way possible. I've seen, I've seen agencies do a job that I think is absolutely brilliant in some very difficult cases. And I've seen other agencies that have done a horrible, lazy, dumb ass job. And I sit here and of course, look, I'm not trying to be on my high horse here, but I sit here all these years later and several hundred miles away and I review this case and I cannot for a second get over the piss poor job that I think that the West Memphis Police Department did in this case. And like I said earlier in our conversation here today, Captain is, I think this thing was flubbed up from the very beginning. I think that they screwed it up. I, I, I do like that they called the FBI. We know that they called the FBI based off of a conversation between John Douglas and, and Ken Lanning. By the way, I know we'll be, we'll have a different recommendation for this week for the reading, but remember back in the day we recommended Ken Lanning's book Love Bombs and Molesters. He's an absolute expert in his field. I recommend that book Every which Way to Sunday. I appreciate that. They called New York City. Where they dropped the ball was they should have got a larger agency with better and more resources than they possessed at the time to take over this case. This would be like Delphi, Indiana. It would have been like if the Delphi, the local Delphi police would have said, we're going to head up this investigation. We don't want the sheriff's department involved, we don't want the state police involved.

[Captain]

We don't want the FBI involved.

[Nick]

And Mara Leverett points out in the Devil's not and she doesn't, she doesn't accuse them of this. It's a little implied that her opinion may be because they were under suspicion of not doing things on the up and up in West Memphis. That, that's why that they refused to call in a larger, bigger, better agency that may have done a better job. You know, there's, there's certainly suspicion of them confiscating evidence. In other cases, we're talking about guns, money and drugs and then turning around and selling them or distributing them amongst their personnel.

[Captain]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And that was the suspicion at the time. And that's why it was believed back in 1993 that they would not allow another agency in here. And I think just the, the quick comparison of the Christopher Morgan, Brian Holland situation in comparison to the Jesse Misskelley situation would make anybody go, wait a second. This, this was the same scenario, and you treated both of them completely different ways.

[Captain]

Well, the reason why it's not the same scenario, and not to nitpick, but Jesse, Ms. Kelly came to you, you came, you went and got.

[Nick]

Great, great. Sorry you didn't. You know, I'm glad you didn't have to jump in your car and do. Actually do any real work. Like, I mean, come on, like you're being, your whole outfit is being paid by taxpayers to solve this case. And to see that they, they treated one guy who the test said was lying completely different to how they treated another guy or two where the same test told them that they were lying is something that I'll never be able to get over. And then, then take it a step further. Local newspaper. This was actually local to Memphis, Tennessee. The Commercial Appeal is the biggest big newspaper in this region. After Ms. Kelly is arrested, they print his confession in the newspaper.

[Captain]

Yeah.

[Nick]

On June 7th. June 7th, 1993, a kid who's 17 years old with no parental. No, no parent in the room, no lawyer in the room confesses to a crime. Like, I don't even, I don't even need to argue the IQ of this guy. He's 17 years old. He's got nobody, no representation. He gives a confession that they know is not true. Because the first confession says that he, that he saw the boys killed around noon. And his confession clearly states that the three victims and Jason Baldwin all skipped school that day. That's how this all went down. At noon. No, we have the attendance records of all four of those students from two different schools saying those four students were in school at noon. And of course, we know that There were several 30 eyewitnesses that see these boys after school at 5, 5, 30, 5, 45, up to 6:30pm Right. And, and they print. They the police. There is no way that the Commercial Appeal gets this confession without getting it from the West Memphis Police Department. I. What? What the hell?

[Narrator/Announcer]

How?

[Nick]

If this is your, if this is your, this is your bible. If you are going to convict these three, you've arrested these three. If you're going to convict them, this is your bible, right? And we know that based off of. There's not a whole lot of great stuff as far as coverage goes about the case and the facts of the case in Paradise Lost. All three of those documentaries, if you would, if you want to call it that, I like to refer to it more as they're chronicling what happened. If they were to shoot those documentaries today, it would be filled with all kinds of information. We've seen, you know, we've seen how documentaries and in true crime or handled

[Captain]

today as eight part series to ten

[Nick]

part series, those were very well if, and, and you know, I again, there's varying opinions out there, but in my opinion, had they got it right there, there would be no reason to have more than one documentary in this situation. But there is no way that the Commercial Appeal gets their hands on this confession to print in the June 7 newspaper, June 7, 1993 newspaper without getting it from local law enforcement. And then guess what you've just done? You've tainted your jury poll throughout the entire region of that area. This newspaper goes out to all, every county that one can think of. You can get your hands on it. And it there, it's in three different parts, three different segments throughout that jury day's newspaper where you are reading the details of his confession that oh, by the way, include things like them eating dogs, all kinds of other things that we know in fact were not true. And what did the Commercial Appeal do? They, they copyrighted that, that article. Newspapers don't do that. You know what? That's suggestive to me. When you copyright that article in a story and information that you clearly could have only received from the police department, that tells me you paid for it. Somebody, somebody got handed an envelope of money and somebody handed off an envelope with a confession in it and it got printed in the paper for everybody and their cousin to read. And then you went to all those people and you said, you know What? Let's find 12 members, 12 peers of this individual and let them sit and decide the fate of this kid.

[Captain]

Not and not just that kid, but two other individuals as well, two others later.

[Nick]

And so it's maybe on another off the record, we'll go through some of those other other newspaper articles. But it's, it's a troubling case and I think unfortunately for the rest of our days, Captain, it's always going to remain a troubling case.

[Captain]

But at the end of the day, this world let down and and continues to let down Christopher Byers, Michael Moore and Stevie Branch. And I'm sorry for that. And I hope that one day the world will make it right. We can never bring them back, but maybe we can at least get them justice in the end. And until we do that, we, we have all failed them. I want to thank everybody for joining us here in the garage. If you need more True Crime Garage for your earballs, make sure you become a Patreon on Patreon or subscribe to the show on Apple podcast Colonel do we have a recommended reading for the beautiful listeners this week?

[Nick]

We are very happy to be recommending A Harvest of Innocence the Untold Story of the West Memphis Three murder case by Dan Stidham and Tom McCarthy. This is attorney Dan Stidhams now an honorable judge Dan Stidham down in Arkansas. This is Mr. Stum's story regarding his involvement in the West Memphis Three murder case. Attorney Dan Stum breaks his self imposed 30 year silence to expose details only he knows about the infamous West Memphis three murders. Exposing what happened will allow him to close the door on a case that has tormented him for years. The West Memphis Three murder case which captured the world's attention in the 1990s to such an extent that it remains one of the most discussed true crime stories even today. Now regardless if you believe that the West Memphis Three are guilty or innocent, or especially if you cannot make up your mind, this is a must read in my humble garage opinion. Maybe it's just my fascination with this case, but I could not put this book down. And anytime that I am reading something about any of the persons involved in this case, I'm always taking notes. So if it's new or expanded information to me, I make a Note. I made 97 notes while reading Dan Stidham's book the Harvest of Innocence. You can find that great title and many more recommendations on our true crimegarage.com recommended page.

[Captain]

And until next week, be good, be kind and don't litter. SA.

[Narrator/Announcer]

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