West Memphis 3 /// Jessie, Jason and Damien

Summary

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True Crime Garage – West Memphis Three /// Jessie, Jason and Damien

Published: May 6, 2024
Hosts: Nic and The Captain

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Episode Overview

This episode is the third part of True Crime Garage's exploration into the notorious West Memphis Three case. Hosts Nic and The Captain dissect the confessions, evidence, legal proceedings, alternative suspects, and cultural impact surrounding the 1993 murders of three young boys in West Memphis, Arkansas—a case that resonated deeply due to the controversial convictions of Jessie Misskelley Jr., Jason Baldwin, and Damien Echols. The discussion is rich in detail and skepticism, reflecting on the reliability of confessions, evidentiary gaps, the police investigation, and doubts that linger decades later.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: The Case and Its Context

• The hosts recap that this is part three of their series on the West Memphis Three, recommending listeners begin with earlier episodes (07:25).
• They highlight the heightened pressure on police following the gruesome murders of three boys—a factor that shaped the case's urgency and investigative missteps (08:00, 08:46).

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2. Jessie Misskelley's Interrogation & Confession

• Police Approach: Jessie was picked up on June 3rd, 1993, nearly a month after the crime and interrogated based on his ties to Jason Baldwin and Damien Echols (07:50–08:40).
• Confession Process: After routine questioning and a polygraph (with questionable reliability and results), Jessie is told he’s lying, confusing and intimidating him (10:47–12:05).
• Intellectual Capacity: Repeated discussion of Jessie’s limited IQ—variously cited as 67, 68, 79, or 80—emphasizes how susceptible he may have been to police tactics (11:35).

  “Jesse’s a simple-minded guy... I just think he’s very simple and that’s the way I like to view it.” – Captain (11:55)

• Interrogation Tactics: Investigators drew emotional reactions from Jessie by showing him images of the victims and playing a disturbing audio recording, arguably coercing a confession (16:24).
• Confession Problems: Timeframes provided by Jessie contradict known facts (children at school when he said attacks occurred); his story changes under leading questions (13:09–21:54).

  “Jesse will change times 8 times... The investigators are always leading him later in the day.” – Nick (20:17)

• Inconsistent Details: Jessie describes items and events (e.g., rope vs. shoelaces, timelines, sexual assaults, weapon types) that don’t match evidence (23:09–30:00).
• Recorded Confessions: Only about 41 minutes of what was reportedly a 12-hour encounter with police was taped—a red flag for the hosts and many observers (44:29).

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3. Critique of the Confessions and Their Legal Impact

• Manipulation & Misunderstandings: Jessie’s statements appear heavily coached, with police pushing for specific answers. He often tries to extract himself by repeatedly saying, “that’s when I left.” (25:02–26:59)
• Physical Evidence Gaps: Jessie’s knowledge of specific case facts is debated—some details are accurate, but could be rumor, accidental, or indicative of police prompting (39:27–40:53).
• Confession Reliability: The Captain notes, “The first statement given sounds... my gut is telling me that he’s telling the truth, but they’re also leading him...” (18:39). Yet, numerous inconsistencies undermine the confession’s validity.

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4. Arrest, Trials, and Sentencing

• Arrest Irregularities: The suspects’ arrests (especially at night) and lack of parental notification for minors like Jason Baldwin deviate from normal procedure (41:36).
• Jesse’s Trial: Jesse is tried alone, as required by law when a co-defendant refuses to testify against others; he’s convicted and sentenced to life plus 40 years (46:00–49:32).

  “[Jesse] ends up being convicted... life in prison plus 40 years.” – Nick (49:03)

• Baldwin & Echols’ Prosecution: Tried together, largely due to Jessie’s confession; very little direct evidence links Baldwin or Echols to the crime (70:43).

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5. Analysis of Evidence Used Against Damien, Jason, and Jessie

• Damien’s Reputation: Much of the prosecution’s case focused on Damien’s “weirdness,” dark interests, and hearsay from the community (61:40–62:58).

  “You show [the police photo] enough people—now you're like a celebrity in your small little town.” – Captain (62:25)

• Fiber Evidence: Both Damien and Jason’s homes contained fibers that “matched” those at the scene, but these could be found at “any Walmart or any house in town,” making them nearly meaningless as direct evidence (68:41–70:32).
• Alibis: Both Damien and Jason had alibis supported by family and friends, as well as circumstantial evidence like a picked-up prescription (66:48–67:59).
• Knife Evidence: Numerous knives introduced—none conclusively linked to the wounds or scene. References to “Rambo knives” highlight the absurdity of some claims (53:13–54:24).

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6. Alternative Suspects & Unanswered Questions

• John Mark Byers: The stepfather of a victim, once heavily scrutinized in documentaries; timeline conflicts and absence of evidence ultimately weaken the theory (74:57–80:10).

  "…yes, he's a strange bird, man. There's no arguing that... All that matters is, was he violent that day? ...there was just no time for him to do it." – Nick (79:18–80:10)

• Terry Hobbs: Stepfather of Stevie Branch. A hair "not inconsistent" with Hobbs' DNA was found in one shoelace—but the match is weak (91:02–92:10).

  “It’s suspicious... but then you talk about transfer... Again, that’s something that can be transferred. We’re talking about one hair.” – Captain (92:10)

• Mr. Bojangles & Others: Discussion on the lost evidence from a bloody man in a nearby restaurant the night of the murders, and a series of “question marks” around unknown or poorly investigated leads (81:13–84:53).

  “We wish we knew more about Mr. Bojangles.” – Nick (83:16)

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7. Post-Conviction, Public Opinion & The Alford Plea

• Outpouring of Support & Cultural Impact: High-profile supporters (Eddie Vedder, Dixie Chicks, Marilyn Manson) raised millions for the defense, influencing the shift from "witch hunt" to advocacy for the Three (71:27–74:32).

  “After Paradise Lost documentaries, it goes from a witch hunt to, hey, maybe these guys are not guilty…” – Captain (71:27)

• Alford Plea (2011): All three enter an Alford plea—pleading guilty while maintaining innocence, are released for time served, and the state preserves its convictions (103:23–103:52).

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8. Police Investigation Flaws & Lasting Doubts

• Early Investigative Focus: Overemphasis on satanic or occult motive created tunnel vision (114:10–114:28).
• Lack of Evidence: The hosts emphasize throughout that, aside from Jessie’s coerced confession, there was no physical evidence linking any of the Three to the crime (108:17–109:26).
• Systemic Failures: Late and incomplete interviews, especially with potential suspects and family members, may have permanently sabotaged the search for the real killer (115:26–115:33).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Jesse’s a simple-minded guy... I just think he’s very simple and that’s the way I like to view it." – Captain (11:55)
• "Jesse will change times 8 times. He will give 8 different times of day for when he first met up with Damien and Jason." – Nick (20:17)
• "He's constantly trying to get himself out of that... Now they want to know if anyone... raped any of the boys? Nope, I didn't do any of that... And then that's when I left." – Nick (25:02–25:59)
• "The thing about Jason Baldwin is, other than Jesse Misskelley's confession and that red fiber, they had nothing linking Jason Baldwin to this crime." – Nick (70:43)
• "Paradise Lost... it goes from a witch hunt to, hey, maybe these guys are not guilty..." – Captain (71:27)
• "As far as the confessions go... let's just go through some things that are of question. OK? Now, these might be things that point towards his guilt or... his innocence or that the police are leading..." – Nick (20:09)
• "I can't, can't say that they're innocent, can't say that they're guilty. What I can say is I have a really hard time believing that there was enough to try anybody here." – Nick (108:17)
• "We need something that, you know, makes us go, 'oh, that's something we can't dispute.'" – Captain (111:03)

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Major Segment Timestamps

• Beginning Confession & Police Tactics (07:25–23:25)
• Review of Jessie’s Multiple Confessions and Their Issues (23:25–31:41)
• Arrest Scenarios and Legal Ramifications (41:36–49:10)
• Alternative Suspects: Byers, Hobbs, Mr. Bojangles (74:57–99:34)
• Discussion on Physical Evidence (68:41–70:58)
• The Alford Plea and Release (103:23–104:06)
• Closing Reflections & Frustrations with the Case (108:17–115:51)

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Final Thoughts from the Hosts

Nick:
“I can't point to anything that would point to somebody. But what I can point to is I believe that had they taken this investigation and done it properly... we wouldn't have to sit around and argue about this.” (115:26)

Captain:
“I don't think they are [guilty]. I can't say that 100%... I just don't think there's enough for me to say they're guilty. There's not enough for me to say they're 100% innocent either.” (106:43)

Both hosts ultimately express skepticism about the convictions, note the irreparable investigative mistakes, and mourn the likelihood that the mystery may never be solved due to the Alford plea and bureaucratic inertia.

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Suggested Further Exploration

• Documentary films: Paradise Lost trilogy, West of Memphis
• Book: Devil’s Knot by Mara Leveritt
• Continued advocacy for further investigation and transparency in cold cases

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Summary

This is a deep-dive episode that meticulously lays out the complexities and controversies of the West Memphis Three case, balancing skepticism, compassion, and a critical approach to evidence and procedure. Nic and The Captain provide a forum for questioning both the verdict and the nature of justice in America’s most haunting cold cases.

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Transcript

[Nick]

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Picture this. It's the end of a long week. You're unwinding in the tub, listening to your favorite true crime podcast, and then chronic hives come back again in the middle of the episode. What a wet blanket looks like another spell of itchy, swollen, red or skin colored hives. If you have chronic spontaneous urticaria or csu, there may be a different treatment option. Worried about your chronic hives interrupting our next episode? Learn [e-mail] Garage.

[Captain]

Sam.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

I don't want a holy life of prayer and contemplation. I want a life of strife, lust, striving, seeking, struggling and debauchery. I'm not content to settle for one experience when there is a whole lifetime of experiences to be had. I'm so hungry for knowledge that I live several lives at once to acquire it. A Catholic and a Buddhist, a reader and a writer, a sinner and a philosopher, a husband and a father, a Native American and a white man. I no longer have any desire to fit into any one category. The canvas on the altar was also given to me. Its calligraphy translates to moonbeams pierced to the bottom of the pools. Yet in the water not a trace remains. Not a trace remains. I have two definitions for the word magic. The first is knowing that I can affect change through my own will, even behind these bars. The other meaning is more experiential, seeing beauty for a moment in the midst of the mundane. In the movies, it's always the other prisoners you have to watch out for. In real life, it's the guards and the administration. They go out of their way to make your life harder and more stressful than it already is. As if being on death row were not enough. They can send a man to prison for writing bad checks and then torment him there until he becomes a violent offender. One of our Lorian mind's greatest inventions was Moon Water. Another prisoner once discovered me making moon Water and said it was so illogical it nearly drove him insane. For months afterward, he Would stomp his feet in frustration and bellow. This shit is crazy. It makes no sense. That shit is making my head hurt. For some reason, the thought of it seemed to hurt his mind. Then again, he was a little unbalanced to begin with. Moon water can be made only once a month. On the night of the full moon. After the sun goes down and the moon rides high, you fill a container with water and set it on a window ledge so that the moon cast a reflection in it. You must leave it there all night so that it catches as much of the moon's light as possible. You have to remove it right before morning so that the sun's light never touches. Must then be kept in a dark place. My wife and I did this every full moon for years. And we would take a single sip of the water at the same time each night while thinking of each other. In that moment, we were united. No matter how far apart we might be. You take a single sip each night so that you have enough to last the entire month. For every way the system attempts to separate us, we can't help but seek out new ways to pull ourselves together. In the end, hatefulness and ignorance always fail in the face of intelligence and love. The proof is in the moon water. Moonbeams pierce to the bottom of the pools. Yet in the water, not a trace remains. Not a trace remains. Not a trace remains.

[Captain]

Foreign.

[Nick]

Welcome to True Crime Garage. Wherever you are, whatever you are doing, thanks for listening. I'm Nick, your host and with me the only state certified death metal summer camp counselor, the Captain Rock and roll Hoochiku.

[Captain]

Oh, I just blew up my voice, my vocal cords. It's good to see you and it's good to be seen.

[Nick]

Yeah. Welcome to the after party. We are sitting here staying up late. Garage is open. It's starting to cool down outside. Love these summertime nights.

[Captain]

Well, we had to do a part three of this because it's just so huge and we. I don't even think we're going to cover all the details anyways, but we're

[Nick]

going to do our best.

[Captain]

This would have to be like a 20 parter and I just.

[Nick]

Yeah, Captain, if you weren't so long winded, we would have been able to get through this and in two episodes.

[Captain]

Try to keep my mouth shut for these. But we want to put out another episode, two episodes in one week as a thank you to all the support that we got in season three and the growing of the show being in Rolling Stone magazine. Everything that you guys do for the show. It's beautiful. We appreciate it and we're trying to give you back as much as you give us.

[Nick]

So thank you for joining us each week in the garage. And thank you to the to our good friends who signed up on the mailing list and joined the true crime garage army. And I want to thank Wesley from San Diego, California for his donation, huge donation, providing the beer and bringing the beer to the after party. It's very special. Thanks, brother.

[Captain]

Beer not just for us, but for everybody.

[Nick]

He rolled in a keg.

[Captain]

And if you want to support the show, just go to truecrimegarage.com we have old episodes, bonus episodes, we sell T shirts and stuff like that. So let's just get done with the business and let's get right into part three. West Memphis.

[Nick]

Yes, this is episode three. I recommend listening to them in order, but you're welcome to listen to them in any order you see fit. So if you want to start with this one. Welcome to the after party where we left off. The police had just picked up Jesse Misskelley Jr. They brought him to the police department and they're going to interview him. Now. They're interested in him because he knows of some characters that they are interested in, Jason Baldwin and Damien Echols.

[Captain]

And this is a list that was put together by the juvenile officer and he basically came up with a list of about eight people that he would say that maybe would have something to do with these murders.

[Nick]

And Jesse's interested in talking to the police because one, he seems to be a bit of a helpful character and two, he has recently found out that there is reward money and if he knows anything about this case, he should tell them so that he could help him and his family get receive that Money. It's about 10am when they pick up Jesse Misskelley and take him to the police department. Now, this is approximately a month after the murder murderers. So the heat is on for the police and they need to solve this thing soon because there's panic. There's been three boys that started off missing. They were found dead. They were found terribly mutilated. And this crime needs to be solved.

[Captain]

Yeah, the crime happened on May 5th and now he's being interviewed on June 3rd.

[Nick]

So they have him and they're talking to him. They're going to question him and they ask him. One thing that I found interesting, Captain, is that they came up with, with the help of the FBI, they came up with a list of questions that they should ask people. Now these some, sometimes this is somebody that Maybe they just knocked on their door, or maybe that's somebody that was of interest, and they brought them to the police department. But they tried to ask most of the people about the same questions. And first thing they want to know is, does he know anything about the murders or has he heard anything about the murders? Well, Jesse would explain to them that he. He knew of the murders because he was on his way to work, and he had heard on the news he was going to go do a roofing job, and he had heard on the news that the boys were missing. So we can assume that this is May 6, this is not May 5, because it's being reported in the news now. He says that same day he had come home, and when he was done with work, a friend of his had told him that the boys had been found. So we do know that this is May 6th because they were found in the afternoon that day. Right. Does he know anything about Damien Eccles or does he know anything about Jason Baldwin? And he says, yes, I know them. I know. I know Jason Baldwin. He's a nice guy. And we. We've been friends from time to time. And I don't really know Damian Echols. I know who he is. I think he's kind of weird, but I know he's a good friend of Jason Baldwin's. And after they get talking to him for a while, they. They ask him if he would like to take a polygraph test. And he agrees to it. He says he would have no problem doing so. And of course, they need again, to get the permission from his father. They find his father. His father's at, like, a fast food restaurant. And he signs. He says, yeah, sure, no problem. I'll sign the paper. And so now they have permission to give him the polygraph. They ask him only about six or seven questions. I don't have them in front of me. But basically, it's simp. It's simple questions. Things like, did you. Do you know anything about the murders? Have you heard anything about the murders? Do you know who killed these boys?

[Captain]

Yeah, it's a questionnaire that they had.

[Nick]

And in. Within those questions, they're gonna sprinkle in things that may or may not have anything to do with the case that they're looking into. And one of those questions that they ask him is, have you ever done drugs? Um, and he basically says no to most of these questions. He doesn't know who killed these boys. He doesn't know much about the murder. No, he's never done drugs. And they come back to him and they explain to him, you are lying. We are. No, we know that you're lying, but how do we know this machine that we have, right. It tells us that you're a secret machine. It, it's actually your, it's hooked up to your brain and your brain is telling us that you're lying. Yeah. Well, this confuses Jesse and he, let's go back.

[Captain]

Jesse's a simple minded guy.

[Nick]

Yeah. So for the people that want to point out that the West Memphis three are innocent, you will hear them say that he has an IQ as low as 68 or 67. For the people that want to say that they're guilty, sometimes they report that his IQ is as high as 79 or 80. So it all depends on what side of the fence you're on.

[Captain]

And some people like to say like he's has a handicap. I don't, I don't like to think of them like that. I just think he's very simple and that's the way I like to view it.

[Nick]

So he's confused by being told that he's lying. And they point out to him, well, we know that you've done drugs because we've seen you sell them. And he explains to them, I've never sold them, but okay, yes, I have done drugs. So now they're getting him to admit to some things. And they start with what we're going to call an interrogation. What I'm going to call. They started with questions, they moved on to the polygraph. Now they're going to say they're questioning him more. This is an interrogation. And they believe that he knows something of these murders and he knows more than just hearing about it from his friends.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

So he starts to agree with some of the things that they're telling him. And he's going to start off by telling them that yes, he was, he was in Robin Hood Hills and he had been there before and he got there around 9:00am yeah.

[Captain]

And that he says he woke up at 9:00am but then he got there about 12.

[Nick]

Well, the first, the first state portions of the questions, he says he was there as early as nine.

[Captain]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And they will, they will coax him a little bit more and that eventually moves to noon.

[Captain]

Yeah. And online, it's kind of hard to find, but there's, there's two recordings. One of the first confession, the first statement made, and then the second one. But you can also find the one that happened about a year or so later. So if you're interested in those, those are available on the Internet.

[Nick]

Real quickly, I'm going to try to go through the. His first confession. I'm just going to sum it up real quick.

[Captain]

Yes.

[Nick]

And we'll go through some questionable things with it. But basically, he says that he met Jesse and I'm sorry, that Jesse had met Jason and Damien at Robin Hood Hills and he had got there in the morning time.

[Captain]

He walked.

[Nick]

He walked there, and the other boys had walked there as well. And he states that that's when he saw. They saw the three kids, and they hollered at him to come into the woods.

[Captain]

Damien hollered at him.

[Nick]

And so the kids come in there. And he says that he saw Damien hit the one boy and bruise him up real bad. Yeah, he says that Jason starts to attack one of the other boys. And then at this point, the police are already. They're concerned about this potential confession that they're getting because they know that the police, they know that the kids were at school that day. There was no way for them to have been there at 9:00am Or.

[Captain]

Yeah, or even if you go with the 12 o', clock, they're not going to be out of school by that point. And then Jesse then says, well, the boys skip school.

[Nick]

Yeah, well, he starts off by saying that he didn't go to school. Right, well, I didn't go to school. And they go, well, yeah, but the boys were in school. And he goes, no, they skipped school.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

And so they're walking him further down the road and further down on this confession, and he starts to get a little more elaborate with what he sees. And he starts to say, you know, they want to know if there was anything sexual going on. And he explains that they, Damien and Jason started screwing them and stuff, I believe is pretty much what he said.

[Captain]

Yeah. And then basically what he's saying is that they were trying to. And then. Well, he said, well, what do you mean by that? He said, well, that they pulled off their pants. So he was just assuming that they were going to try to screw the boys. And then he goes, well, what makes you so sure that that is what Damien was going to do? And he's like, well, Damien had his

[Nick]

pants unbuttoned, and at some point, it's a little unclear to me if it's. If it wasn't during the interrogation. But there was multiple interrogations and there's different parts that are recorded of the confession.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

But some things that may have scared Jesse into opening up or to creating a story to tell them. The police use some tactics Here they had Gitchell, Gary Gitchell, the lead investigator, he had drawn a circle, and he put three dots inside of the circle, and he put X's all around the circle. And he told Jesse, he said, you see the circle, those three dots inside? Well, that's you, Jason and Damien, those X's all around the circle, Those are police. Now, do you want to be inside that circle or do you want to be outside of that circle?

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

And he says, well, I want to be outside of the circle. And get. You would go on to show him a picture of one of the dead boys.

[Captain]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Now, later, Jesse would say that this shocked him, that he had saw a picture of the face of one of the dead boys and he could see that he was all beat up and he was all bruised up, and he probably had never seen a picture of a dead person, let alone a dead child before.

[Captain]

Hopefully he never did.

[Nick]

Well, this shocks him. Well, if it couldn't shock him any more than this. Shortly afterwards, Gitchell would play a audio tape for Jesse Misskelley. And what it is is it's a child's voice. And he says one sentence. The. The boy on the recording says, nobody knows what happened but me. This terrifies Jesse. He doesn't know what to think of the picture. He doesn't know what to think of the recording. He doesn't know who's in the recording or why it that was said. Well, he's going on and on into this confession, and it's a lot of back and forth.

[Captain]

He.

[Nick]

You people have seen this. Bits of this confession in the movies, in the documentaries. You can find some of it online.

[Captain]

Those documentaries are Paradise Lost or West of Memphis.

[Nick]

And I don't know that we're going to go into every bit of it because we'd be here for another now. We'd have another after party after this one.

[Captain]

I mean, look, if you're really interested in this case, start with the Paradise Lost. It's not going to give you a bunch of information. I mean, start with our. Start with our podcast, obviously. I'm actually pretty proud of what we've done so far with the first two parts with the facts that were putting out. But check out those documentaries. Then the west of Memphis, and then you were telling me if you're really into this case, you want to check out Devil's Knot.

[Nick]

Yeah. The Devil's not was a book that came out. I believe it was definitely after the first Paradise Lost movie, and I believe before the second one. I actually think that the Second one, The second Paradise Lost that starts to implicate maybe John Mark Byers as having been the perpetrator of this crime. The Devil's not hints around that quite a bit. Anybody that's read that knows what I'm talking about, and maybe Paradise Lost got that idea from the book.

[Captain]

And then they recently made a movie called Devil's Not. And I heard that they changed the, the screenplay a little bit because they wanted to have it match with the new evidence that has come out. But anyways, there's this confession and it's very questionable now to me, the first statement given sounds. It sounds like my gut is telling me that he's telling the truth, but they're also leading him. And then all the information that you just gave beforehand, it just makes you question, why is this kid confessing at all?

[Nick]

Well, and when you say the first statement, what you're referring to is there's multiple recordings of the confessions.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

And you're talking about the first confession that's recorded in its entirety. Sounds what you said, what it sounds.

[Captain]

It sounds legitimate to me. Like my gut is telling me that he's, that he's telling the truth. That's my thought, but nothing else makes sense to me.

[Nick]

Okay, well, the. As far as the confessions go, and I've listened to them in their entirety, and I, and I know you have as well, and I will say let's just go through some things that are of question. Okay? Now, these might be things that point towards his guilt or things that might point towards him being innocent or that the police are leading or what have you. The first thing, the obvious thing that stands out in most people's mind is the times.

[Captain]

Right. The time doesn't make any sense with the, the prosecution's timeline throughout the confessions

[Nick]

that were taken on this day, the times. Jesse will change times. 8 times. He will give 8 different times of day for when he first met up with Damien and Jason.

[Captain]

Right. And then the investigators are always leading him later in the day. They're trying to get away from that 9 o'. Clock. They're trying to get away from that noon.

[Nick]

The investigators know that the boys were last seen around 6 or 6:30pm so they need, they need Damien, Jason and Jesse to have met up with those boys at that time or later.

[Captain]

Right. Not at noon.

[Nick]

So as we said, Jesse starts off saying nine, and then nine becomes noon. And then noon becomes after. After. After work. It was after work. It was about 5:00'.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Clock.

[Nick]

Well, Jesse, did you have your watch with you that Day? No.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

Well then you might not know what time it was. You said it was five or six. Now we're up to six. Then later it becomes seven or eight.

[Captain]

Was it light or was it dark?

[Nick]

And then get. You says, well, that sums it up because Jesse says, well it was, it was getting dark. Which we, we had reported in the first episode that the moon, that the, the sun went down, moon came up about 7:41 that day.

[Captain]

It's like my favorite line or one of my favorite lines in a movie from Perks of Being a Wallflower. The main character asks his dad for a fifty dollar bill. The dad says, twenty dollars, what do you need ten dollars for? It's like they did the same thing to him. It's like, was it four or five, was it. Okay, so five. Okay, was it dark? And then we just keep pushing it back.

[Nick]

Well, real quick, this is how we got to 7 or 8pm as far as Jesse's concerned. Once they had got to 5 o'. Clock.

[Captain]

Yeah.

[Nick]

At some point. The investigator says, now earlier you had told me it was more like seven or eight. And there is no part on any of those tapes. Now maybe this was a discussion that was off, off the tape, off the record. But there was no discussion that was being recorded where Jesse had said earlier that it was seven or eight. Now he's leading him up to seven or eight. And exactly what you said. The police asked him now was it seven or eight? And Jesse's response is not seven, it's not eight. He says, yeah, it was seven or eight.

[Captain]

Right, right. You pick.

[Nick]

And not only that, you could pick either one and you would still be considered guilty. There is no right answer unless you're the police. So we have the times there. The times are confusing. The times are a problem for the police department and they're a problem for, for Jesse's confession. The other part is when they start talking about the boys being tied up. Now the police want to know, you know, how, how were these boys tied up? Well, Jesse says they were tied with rope and that he, at no point does he ever indicate that he understands that the hands were tied to the ankles. Remember we said that the right hand was tied to the right ankle and so on.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

And he says that their hands were tied with rope. What color rope? It was brown rope.

[Captain]

He said, oh, that's what color rope is. And well, this is a problem because we know that they were tied up with shoelaces.

[Nick]

Yeah. And they weren't tied with their hands behind their back.

[Captain]

So again, it's, it's this weird thing where it's like, okay, okay, so keep going.

[Nick]

And not only that, Jesse explains that they, they couldn't have been tied hand to. To ankle because they, they were trying to run. The one boy had taken off running, right? So they can't run when you're tied hand to ankle.

[Captain]

And he's the one that went and got the boy and stopped him.

[Nick]

So at some point the police have to have him stop the confession and he's going to have to go through it again because they weren't obviously tied with rope. We got to get that right.

[Captain]

We gotta fix some things.

[Nick]

So there's some other problems. Okay, so what? One thing that Jesse had said was that Jason and Damien had started screwing them and stuff, meaning the victims. Okay, well, here's the problem with that. We know how the boys were tied. If they were going to be sodomizing the boys, it's probably close to impossible with how they were tied. Without getting into specifics, he does talk about oral sex. He asked if anybody was having oral sex. And he does say that Damien and Jason were having. Sticking their things in their mouths of two of the boys. He said that they were holding them by the ears. Now that, that is a problem for Jesse because there are, there are injuries to some of the boys, if not all of them, that would indicate an act like that occurring.

[Captain]

Well, yeah, if you go against science, yes.

[Nick]

The police want to know, did Jason. Well, first of all, they want to know, did Jesse rape any of the boys? And he says, no, I didn't do any of that. One thing you'll notice in these confessions is that Jesse is constantly. He will tell a portion of the story and then he'll say, and then that's when I left. And then later they'll get him to tell more of a story. And then he go. Always refers back to the. And then that's when I left. And then he'll tell a little bit more. And then that's when I left. He's constantly trying to get him out himself out of that or this is the end of the story. Now they want to know if any of the. Here's some problems that they have with Jesse's story when they're talking about the rape of the boys. Now, you will hear more than one time, Jesse will say that Damien raped Myers and both of them raped Branches. Okay, so now he's starting to get the names of the victims wrong. He's referring.

[Captain]

I thought you just got him wrong.

[Nick]

No, he's Referring to Byer. I don't know if he's referring to Moore or Byers, but he says Myers.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

Which is kind of a smashing of the two. And then he talks about both of them raping branches. But there's a problem for. Here's a problem for Jesse. At some point, he doesn't realize this, but I think he's trying to confirm their story or put validity to his story. He says at some point that the Moore boy got away, started to run, and that Jesse went and caught him and brought him back. Well, now he's just implicated himself and he's. He's gone from having witnessed a rape and murder to now being involved in the actual kill one.

[Captain]

He's not doing anything to stop these attacks happening. But then when the one boy goes to get away, if it wasn't for him bringing him back, then that boy would have lived.

[Nick]

Exactly.

[Captain]

Based on Jesse's story, and not only

[Nick]

that, maybe whatever was going on would have stopped because somebody got away anyway. He. He's now implicated himself. The police want to know if Jason or Damien went down on any of the boys. Now why do they want to know this? Well, we went through some of the autopsy and we. We're not going to go through it in its entirety because it's. It's just too much to take. It's. You can find it if you really want to read it. But one thing that I will point out for you is that there were abrasions, there were damages to Stevie Branch's penis. He had had some bruising on it, and they wanted to know if somebody had gone down on any of the boys because this was something they would have expected. Something had to have happened for him for those bruises to occur.

[Captain]

Yeah. And I mean, those bruises would also just be with any sexual abuse.

[Nick]

Okay, so let's talk about something that he had said early in the get go. He said, I'd seen Damien hit this one boy and bruise him up real bad. Okay. Well, I do believe. I do believe that this crime took a certain amount of time to occur. The way that the things that were done to these boys in the way that they were left in the woods. I believe that it would have taken a certain amount of time for this to occur. What I find strange is here, and I'm. I'm obviously no doctor, Captain. I'm just hanging out in the garage with you.

[Captain]

No, you're not a doctor.

[Nick]

But to say that he bruised him up real bad. You usually don't punch somebody or hit somebody and they bruise instantly. I don't know Jesse's definition of bruise, but it seemed my definition of bruise is usually something you see well after the fact.

[Captain]

Yeah, but I, I don't know, I think if you hit somebody, I mean they, they're going to get splotchy, you know, red splotches and stuff.

[Nick]

The other thing they wanted to know who had a knife? Jesse, did you have a knife? No.

[Captain]

No.

[Nick]

Who had a knife? Did Damien have a knife?

[Captain]

Nope.

[Nick]

Jason had a knife. Yes, he did.

[Captain]

He had several knives. Not, not there, but he has several.

[Nick]

He has several knives. But what knife did he have with them at the crime scene?

[Captain]

It's a pull out lock blade. So it's, it's the kind of blade that you, when you pull it out, that lock into place.

[Nick]

Well, Jesse's asked, you know, to describe the knife and he. Yes, he says it's a lock blade and he says it's about six inches. It's a, it's a blade that's about six inches. And what kind of blade is it? Well, the problem with this is he says it's a regular blade.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

Now again, I don't know Jesse's definition of bruising. I don't know his definition of a regular blade, but when I hear somebody say regular blade, I'm thinking of a flat, single edged lock knife. The problem with that is they firmly believe that the injuries that were, that were suffered by Christopher Byers, right when they cut off the scrotum, they believed that it was a serrated knife that would have caused that wound, that would have removed that portion of the body. He never describes a serrated knife.

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[Nick]

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[Nick]

They probe on, they want to know what any of the boys dead when you left? Because he, remember he keeps saying that he left now the first couple of times, no, all the boys were still alive when he left. And eventually they get him to the point where he says that, yes, the buyer's boy, you know, he basically, they have three pictures. They have a picture of each boy out on the table. And a lot of times he doesn't refer to the boys by names. He'll just point at one of the pictures and say, that boy. Right. And he points at a picture and he says, that boy, he was dead. They killed him before I left.

[Captain]

Well, the investigators might have got tired of him saying the wrong names. And so they might have just been like, you just need a point from now on because you calling them Myers and stuff doesn't work for what we need you for.

[Nick]

Well, and you know what's interesting to me was at one point early in the confession he calls, he refers to the buyer's boy as Moore. Which the strange thing about that was the police and the medical examiner early in the investigation had confused those two boys as well. I just found that strange. It doesn't mean anything, but I always found it odd that two of the boys were confused by multiple people. Anyway, he says that yes, the buyer's boy was killed before he had left and they asked how, how he was killed? Well, he, they choked him. They choked him with his hands and then they choked him with a stick.

[Captain]

A little stick.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

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[Nick]

And then they threw him into the water and he, I believe he says that he saw him still twitching or his feet still kicking.

[Captain]

Yeah, one of them was kicking once

[Nick]

he was thrown into the water. And he's referring to the buyers boy. There's a couple problems.

[Captain]

Well, we don't really know who he's referring.

[Nick]

Yeah, we do because he says that one right there. And get your says you're talking about the buyer's boy.

[Captain]

I know, but what I'm saying is for, for most of the interrogation he's switching them up. So.

[Nick]

Okay, but for this instance he's talking about, he's, he's pointing to Christopher Byers. Now the reason why this is important is because out of all, out of the three victims, when you refer to the autopsy report, there was a lot of damage done to all three of these boys. There was more damage done to Christopher Byers than anybody else. But one of the few body parts that was not damaged on Christopher Byers was his neck. There was no indication of having been choked, strangled, or choked with a stick on his neck.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

And furthermore, he didn't drown. He was the only boy out of the three that didn't have water in his lungs. He was.

[Captain]

So we did assume that he had died before he put it. Put in the water.

[Nick]

He was dead before he was put in the water.

[Captain]

But according to Jesse, he's kicking.

[Nick]

He was kicking. He was still kicking. He would have been. Exactly. He would have been alive. And he probably would have inhaled some water at that point. According to the autopsy report, Christopher Byers died from multiple injuries and had bled

[Captain]

out, which makes me really feel bad about my gut instincts when I think about what my gut was telling me when I first heard the first interview with him.

[Nick]

Now, some things that don't work out well for Jesse, in my opinion, is there.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

He.

[Nick]

He's asked, how did they keep the boys quiet? And he says, well, they. They held their hands over their mouths, and. And then at some point, he says that they stuffed their shirts into their mouths. Well, this is. This is interesting to me because it's not something that I've heard anywhere else. And it wasn't a question that they were specifically asking him, you know, did you put a shirt in their mouth? You know, there were other points in these. In this confession where he's being led, clearly being led. But once in a while, he's offering up information without having been led to this answer. And this is one of these.

[Captain]

Have any proof that they had shirts on there? It could be something he saw in a movie.

[Nick]

No, you're exactly right. But what I'm getting at is the people that point out over and over again that the West Memphis three are innocent, they will constantly say that, oh, he was being led on every single question.

[Captain]

He wasn't.

[Nick]

No. Some of the stuff he was coming up with on his own, whether he had seen it or whether he was making it up at that point. Now, the other problem that I have with his confession that doesn't look good for Jesse is that he does admit that only one of the boys had their penis removed, that that was castrated.

[Captain]

This is also a month afterwards and how many rumors are happening in that town?

[Nick]

The reason why I have a problem with that is, as we reported in our first episode, what was reported in the newspaper the day after the boys

[Captain]

were Found doesn't matter what's reported.

[Nick]

I understand, but what I'm saying is the, the, what's reported in that newspaper is what starts off everybody's general understanding of what the police found. And that understanding is that all three boys were sexually mutilated. That's what was stated in the newspaper. That doesn't mean that they didn't hear other rumors a month later. But what I'm getting at is that's one of the things that you need to look at. That's one of the things that the police were holding close to themselves. They, they were, they were ashamed that that information had gotten out, but they knew that, that when they find the right person, the right person would know that only one of them was cast.

[Captain]

I mean, there's, yeah, one's castrated, but one, there is abuse to the, one of the kids genitals.

[Nick]

But keep in mind, four hours earlier, Jesse Misskelley knew nothing about this crime. So for him to come up with, with something like this and be spot on, he goes straight from knowing nothing to knowing something that maybe only the police mean.

[Captain]

He doesn't know anything. He just answered that he didn't know any. He didn't know anything at the time. That doesn't mean he doesn't know something.

[Nick]

I understand. Answered as I, I get that. What I'm getting at is that this is a problem for Jesse Misskelley. Wouldn't you agree that he knows, he knows. He's reporting a fact that is, he's reporting something to the police that is fact that the general public may not have known as fact. After this confession, is there anything else that you want to touch on in the confession, Captain?

[Captain]

No.

[Nick]

Okay. So after the confession, the other boys are promptly arrested and now charges are being filed against all three of them. And we're not going to go through all the details of the arrest and how this all went down, but you can imagine what's going on. And most of you out there have seen the Paradise Lost movies or the

[Captain]

west of Memphis movies, and this doesn't go down like, you know, normal situations. They're not giving people the right to call home right away. Jason Baldwin's parents don't even know where he's at for a while, so it's kind of going down a little funny.

[Nick]

They're arrested at night and according to Arkansas law, they're not really supposed to issue a warrant for arrest for a nighttime process. And that has to, that has to have special circumstances. And those circumstances would be that you, you would think that the, the perpetrators would flee, that you would think that they would try to destroy evidence or that they could conspire together to, to form a story or, you know, create a story of innocence.

[Captain]

And you don't think this gives them enough reason to arrest them at night?

[Nick]

No. And a reason why is this was a month later, if you're worried about evidence being destroyed. Well, it's been a month. If you're worried about them coming up

[Captain]

with a good story, though, because, you know, within that last month, if you're Damien Echols and you're Jason Baldwin, your buddy that was with you, he's not being put into question. You don't think it would get around town? Oh, you know, they, they got Jesse Misskelley in there and they're questioning them. And if you, if you heard that and you were involved in this, wouldn't that give you some time to start getting rid of stuff?

[Nick]

One of the boys was a minor. The other, the other 18 year old, the adult never had a driver's license or.

[Captain]

Jason Baldwin was 16. Yeah, Ms. Kelly was 17.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

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[Nick]

But there's not probable cause to believe that the two of them have the ability to flee. And, and furthermore, any, any general intelligence would tell you that they've already had the opportunity to destroy evidence and they've already had the opportunity to conspire to come up with a good story.

[Captain]

Well, I get that, but also, if these boys were involved, they brutally murdered three kids, so the public's at risk.

[Nick]

I'm not saying that it shouldn't have happened. I'm just saying that it's not normal, it's abnormal for them to issue a warrant for arrest for an evening, for the, for the nighttime.

[Captain]

I agree with that. I'm just saying that if, if I'm the cops and I find out through a confession or whatever that somebody murdered kids, I'm going to go pick them up as quick as I can.

[Nick]

Yeah, you have to get a judge out of bed or away from dinner that night to come in and issue the warrant. And then you go and you apprehend the, the, the one child and then the, the, the man. The other thing here is one thing we should point out that that goes against this. This is bad for the police. They did spend about 12 hours that day with Jesse Misskelley. Only 41 minutes of that time ended up on tape or being recorded.

[Captain]

Yeah, that's not good.

[Nick]

That's not good for the police. The, the bad thing for the people that believe that the West Memphis three are innocent would Be, you know, a lot of people point out, well, they interrogated him for 12 hours. Well, that's not really the case. They picked him up at 10am and by 2pm he was, he was spitting out a confession.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

I don't really love the tactics of showing the picture of the dead boy. Maybe that's general procedure, I don't know. But the strange voice of the boy saying, I'm the only one that knows what happened.

[Captain]

Seems there's a lot of questionable things.

[Nick]

Seems odd to me.

[Captain]

They were definitely fishing.

[Nick]

Well, they've got the boys, They've got them arrested. The West Memphis three, Damien Echols, Jason Baldwin, Jesse Misskelley. Now they've got to try these guys, Right. So it's decided that they're all going to be tried as adults and they're going to have two separate trials, which

[Captain]

is complete bullshit for Jason Baldwin being 16.

[Nick]

Yeah, yeah. I've always thought actually that probably Jesse and Jason could have been charged as, as youths.

[Captain]

Yeah. Well, Jesse definitely just mentally.

[Nick]

Yeah. I mean anybody that would have taken some time or if they would have evaluated him further, I mean that would be the logical thing to do. What they decided to do. They're going to try Jesse Misskelley by himself because there's a certain law and I don't know which it is, but unless he's willing to implicate the other two that he's confessing about, then he has to be tried separately. So first of all, they have Jesse's trial. Okay.

[Captain]

Now, and this is covered in Paradise Lost 1.

[Nick]

Yeah, they do. They spend a lot of time covering his case. And, and you can see him. It's strange, you know, you see him, he doesn't ever really look at the jury. He doesn't look at the.

[Captain]

Well, his lawyers tell him to keep his head down, so he just looks down at the ground the whole time.

[Nick]

And they, they later on they wanted to get a public opinion on his, his, you know, what they thought of how he carried himself in court, you know, because going into this he was looked at as kind of a local badass, as somebody, as a, as a boy that liked to get him fake

[Captain]

fights because he wants to be a wrestler.

[Nick]

Yeah, he was kind of a tough kid and a lot of people were shocked when he showed up to court and he's like you said, he's only like 5 foot tall. And they see this very small, kind

[Captain]

of meek looking person, 5:1 or something like that.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And, and, and he gets there and he spends the entire trial staring at his shoes. He doesn't look up at anybody. As you said, the lawyer told him to do that. Public opinion was. Was kind of on the fence about that. They. While some of the people thought that it made it look like he was scared and intimidated, which made him look almost innocent, other people thought that it made him look disinterested or, you know, kind of. Kind of disassociated with what was going on.

[Captain]

I believe Jesse was scared, though.

[Nick]

I think he definitely was scared 100%.

[Captain]

I mean, he's locked away. He just wants to go home to be with his family. There's a lot of talk about how, like, he had a lot of issues. Separation anxiety from his mother when he was younger. So can you imagine what's going through his head now? He's in jail with. With no family.

[Nick]

Yeah. And there. There's some problems going on, too, outside of the court. His defense attorney, Stedham, is. Is having problems with Jesse when he's trying to put together the case. Why? Because Jesse is. When his. When Jesse's father is around, Jesse's innocent. He pleads that he's innocent. When his father leaves, he's telling his attorney that he's guilty, and he. He continues to confess to his attorney. What ends up occurring. And we're going to make this shorter than it. Than it should be, but what ends up occurring is that the attorney figures out that. That Jesse doesn't understand that the defense attorney works for Jesse.

[Captain]

Right. That. That he's trying to help him out.

[Nick]

Exactly. He figures out that Jesse thinks that the attorney's just another detective, that he's a cop, and so he's treating all fairness.

[Captain]

He kind of looks like a cop. I mean, he had the beard and the.

[Nick]

Exactly. He looked. He looks similar to most of the detectives that Jesse probably spoke with at some point. And I think you had told me that it was through Jesse's father that Jesse's father pointed out to. To Junior that. That this guy works for you, that he's on your side. We're all on your side here, and you need to tell the truth.

[Captain]

Yeah, well, I think this. Well, there was a bunch of stuff going back and forth, but even his mom, you know, was trying to tell him, like, look, these people are here to help you.

[Nick]

Jesse ends up being convicted, and he's convicted, and he's sentenced to life in prison plus 40 years.

[Captain]

Right. And so after you're dead, they just leave you in prison. 40 years.

[Nick]

Yeah. And. And then they figure it out 40 years from now.

[Captain]

Yeah.

[Nick]

But the reason for that to be that.

[Captain]

That's my cellmate.

[Nick]

Do you know the reason for that sentence?

[Captain]

No.

[Nick]

So he received one. He received the life off of the

[Captain]

one murder and then 20 for each.

[Nick]

Because one of the boys he said he caught and brought back, and that was Michael Moore. So he received a life sentence for the death of Michael Moore.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

He.

[Nick]

Plus 20 years for Stevie Branch, plus 20 years for Christopher Byers. Now, January of 1994, there is a knife that is presented to the police.

[Captain]

It's not presented, it's.

[Nick]

It's mailed to the police. I believe they FedExed it to them. So what knife is this? This is the knife that John Mark Byers gave to some of the people.

[Captain]

I thought you were talking about a different knife.

[Nick]

Yeah, there's lots of knives in this case. And actually, I think that when we went through the evidence that was submitted throughout the time of this investigation, it was like what, 18 or 19 knives were submitted as evidence at some point or looked at, sent to the crime lab for analysis. And one of those knives was a knife that was given to the people that were recording and videotaping the. One of the Paradise Lost.

[Captain]

Yeah, one of the cameramen.

[Nick]

Yeah. And it was around Christmas time and John Mark Byers had given. Had gifted them a knife. And at some point the person that received the knife thought that it looked to have been used, that maybe there was something on it and this item could be blood. Well, they decide, the good people at HBO decide that they should turn the knife into the police department. The police department then in turn gives it to the crime lab and they are able to determine. This is quite strange. They're able to determine that the blood. There is blood on the knife and that the blood matches that of Christopher Byers. Well, this is a problem because it's found in the possession of John Mark Byers. They would go on to ask John Mark Byers about this knife and how he had received it and what he had done with the knife. And would there be any reason why?

[Captain]

Well, it matches, but it doesn't match, like, exactly. Right. It's just the type. It's the same type.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Right.

[Nick]

But for the purpose of their questioning, it matches Christopher Byers.

[Captain]

Okay.

[Nick]

So they're going to interrogate and interview John Mark Byers about the knife. They want to know why that the boy's blood would be on the knife. He doesn't know. He doesn't know that there's no reason why there should be any blood at all. They don't bluntly ask him About Christopher Byers, he goes on to say that maybe he was using it to cut deer meat or maybe he'd used it to cut himself while using it to cut himself on accident while he was cutting the deer meat. Might have saved him a bit because they would later find out and later determine that the blood that was on that knife also matched his. And while this is curious, because they're not. They're not father and son biologically that

[Captain]

we know of exactly. Reported that way.

[Nick]

Exactly. But.

[Captain]

But they did started seeing her when she was pregnant, so.

[Nick]

And they have. So they end up having similar. Similar blood. Now, we should be. We should point out here that you're exactly right, Captain, that all that they did is what. What is referred to as an alpha test on that, which. Which really breaks it down. They didn't have much DNA testing at the time. And all that does is break it down and say that you can eliminate this person or that person. You can't eliminate these other people. And so I'm sure that it probably matches more than just John Mark and Christopher Byers, but this was something that they were looking into during the course of putting together the case against Damien and Jason. And this is interesting too, because there was another knife that was found before that, and that was the knife that was found in the water in the pond or lake behind Jason Baldwin's trailer. Now, this was not a lock knife, was it, Captain?

[Captain]

No, it's called a survival knife. Yeah. The blade doesn't bend. This handle and blade.

[Nick]

Yeah, it looks like Rambo's knife, right?

[Captain]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Like in this, this would be like a 7 or 8 inch blade. This is a big blade. The problem with a few of these things, too, is one, one with the six inch blade that is discussed in Jesse Misskelley's confession. And this big, giant Rambo knife that's found in the water behind Jason Baldwin's trailer. These are giant knives. These are big knives. Okay. The injuries that were miniature swords, the injuries that were stained by these boys, some of. Some of what could be looked at as potential stab wounds, none of them, none of them penetrated the boys more than 2 inches. So that's a bit of an issue. You got all these big giant knives that we're testing. Now, it's not to say that you couldn't just pick at somebody or. Or lightly go at it, but it's improbable in my mind. Before we can get to the trial of Damien and Jason, there is another confession by Jesse after he's convicted and he's Driven by the deputies to the prison, he will offer another confession to these deputies.

[Captain]

I think at this point, he just likes the attention.

[Nick]

The deputies would go on to report what he says to them. And I'm not going to go through the whole confession, but there are some changes to his story. He says that he met up with Damien and Jason after he got off work and that things went down a little bit different, that they were hanging out in the woods, in the water, they had seen the boys. Damien called the boys over, and Jesse and Jason were hiding. And after Damien grabbed one of the boys, the boys started attacking Damien. And that's when Jesse and Jason started beating the boys with sticks. Most of his confession after that would be about the same. He would tell the deputies. This again, though, we got to point out, is according to the deputies, he would tell the deputies that he lied to the police in his original confession about the times because he wanted to see if he could trick the police. And he also lied about the rope, and he knew that it was shoelaces that had tied the boy.

[Captain]

But this was recorded. I mean, so we could go back and listen to it.

[Nick]

This. This confession was given on the ride from the courthouse to the prison.

[Captain]

Right. But then there was another confession that they. They recorded when they were trying to make the deal.

[Nick]

Yes. That. That would be a third confession that was given to the prosecuting attorneys as well as his defense attorney. Jesse would later, later state that he only gave this confession to the deputies that were driving him to prison because that they promised him that they would drive his girlfriend to see him in prison if he told them what really had happened. And they had also told him that if he didn't. If he didn't confess and he didn't testify against those other boys, that what's going to happen is while he's locked away in prison, that Damien and Jason was going to get to his girlfriend. So regardless, he offers up this confession to the deputies, and we don't know if it actually happened or if the deputies made it up. But as the captain had pointed out, there was another confession that was given to the prosecutors as well as the defense attorney. And during that confession, there is one thing that comes to light that we haven't heard so far is that he explains that he had been drinking that day. Yeah. And he was drinking whiskey.

[Captain]

A couple things come up was he's drinking whiskey, boys are drinking beer. And that he also mentions now, instead of just running and catching the kid, that he actually, actually takes part in attacking the kid.

[Nick]

Yeah. That he's. He's helping to beat up some of the boys, and he's even holding some of the boys while they're being hit by the. By Damien and Jason. And he would also say that. Back to the whiskey, though. He would tell the. Tell them that he was drinking. Evan Williams, I believe, was the name of the brand of whiskey.

[Captain]

Now, I'm just going to stop you right here because if you can find this recording, this is very hard to listen to.

[Nick]

Back to the whiskey that Jesse was drinking. He says he was drinking that day. He says the brand of whiskey was Evan Williams. And now Vicki, remember Vicki Hutchinson, she would go on to say that she had gave that bottle to Jesse because he had helped her with something to pay him back. And he says that after he left the scene of the crime, that he was walking home and that he had thrown the bottle at an overpass or near an overpass and had broken this on the side of the. The overpass there. And Stedham, his defense attorney, refused to believe that Jesse was guilty. And the prosecutors and the investigators were trying to convince the defense attorney that he was, in fact, guilty.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

And so what they did was they went with Steno to go find this broken bottle, and they were able to recover. At that very overpass that Jesse had mentioned, they were able to recover the neck of a Evan Williams whiskey bottle. That is weird. The big problem with that is, remember we had said earlier that. That that interstate is one of the most traveled freeways in the United States. And they find this bottleneck about a year after. After the crime had taken place, a year after the time that he said he had thrown it. Now, Evan Williams is not a terribly uncommon bottle of whiskey. I mean, it's well known, and it's probably better known in that area.

[Captain]

We should try to drink more whiskey on the show. That'd be fun.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

More.

[Captain]

We'd have a lot of fun on those episodes.

[Nick]

Well, we've got to talk about the second trial and the big thing that comes out in the second trial just

[Captain]

beforehand, I believe, bunch of nonsense.

[Nick]

The day before, Jesse says, I'm not going to testify against Damien and Jason. Right now, the. There we got to be clear here, because Jesse was offered a deal. He was going to be offered a reduced sentence of 40 years.

[Captain]

Right. Get away a life in prison plus 40 years. Just down to 40 years.

[Nick]

So. And he was only.

[Captain]

And if you look at Paradise Lost, the prosecution states to the family, if he doesn't testify, we don't have a case. That's what they say.

[Nick]

And a lot of people would point out, well, let's think real quick, because I believe Jesse would have been 18 by this time. So he would have been 58 if after he served 40 years, he would probably get out and be alive. Or he could, you know, after good behavior or whatever might get even more reduced after that point. But regardless, he doesn't take the deal. A lot of people would point out that this points towards their innocence. And I would point out that, no, this is probably just a tactic of legality that his, his defense attorney is going to tell him. This is what I would tell my client. Look, for you to be guilty. If, if they have nothing on Damien or Jason other than your confession, then they can't convict those two guys. And as soon as those two guys get off, then guess what? We're putting into the appeal process your case. And if you go and testify against them, it's going to make it much harder for us to appeal your case later.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

So he's not really. He's not really. To me, it doesn't present innocence by not testifying against those guys, but I will go further to say that it also does not present that he's guilty either.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

Let's talk about the evidence that they do have. Right, Captain, let's. We don't. We no longer have this confession, and this is what they based the whole arrest off of when they went and picked up Damien and Jason. So we have no confession now. So what evidence do we have? Well, let's point at Damien first. Okay. So there are some people that say that they had heard or overheard him saying that he was, was involved in the case. He would come out many, many years later and kind of explain this. And one thing I want to point out, I think he's kind of spot on with his explanation of this, and I'll tell you why afterwards. But the general story is, is that he was at a softball game. He was seen at a softball game, and he had made reference that he had either knew what had happened to the boys or he had been involved in killing the boys.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

And the reason that he says that this came about was when he went to the softball game, people started kind of pointing at him and looking at him, and he could hear them talking about, oh, there he is. He. That's the guy that, that's the weirdo that killed those kids. That's the. He's a Satanist and he's got an occult. And he and his occult, his cult killed those boys.

[Captain]

Right. But Jason Baldwin kind of talks about this, that, you know, even though that Damian was different and most people saw him as different, that it was kind of became a joke. Like, Damian liked to pack his lunch, so. Which is not a weird thing. He just didn't like school lunch. So then all the boys or girls would say, oh, what you got in your lunch? A cat. And then Damian would just go, meow.

[Nick]

He'd just go along with it.

[Captain]

But it wasn't like he was being mean or rude or they were even being that rude. It was just kind of a joke. Like, this guy is just a little different, but we seem to like him well.

[Nick]

And he liked being strange and he liked poking fun at people. And if you thought one thing of him, he was happy to let you think that. And why. Why do I believe his explanation? This goes back to that Polaroid picture that was taken of him that police were going around and they were showing this to people and asking if they knew if he was in a cult or if he was a Satanist or if he was involved in the murder of these boys.

[Captain]

Right. You show that enough people now you're like a celebrity in your small little town.

[Nick]

Yeah, You're. You're. You're putting a face and a name to the crime. And people know nothing about this crime. And at some point, they start talking amongst themselves. Well, he must be involved, because the police showed me a picture and said his name. So I absolutely believe that the people. The softball game said that about him. And I bet you he retaliated with something that he probably shouldn't have said. You know, they gave him just enough rope and he hung himself. Well, so what other evidence do we have regarding Damien? Well, there was the knife that was found in the lakeshore trailer park, pond

[Captain]

or lake, but that knife was thrown there a year before the murders even took place.

[Nick]

That. That's what they would end up figuring out, but they would still present this as potential evidence in the case. Now, again, I don't believe. There's no reason to believe that that knife was involved in this case. And furthermore, according to Jesse Misskelley's every single one of his confessions, the knife was Jason's. It belonged to Jason. Jason brought the knife. Jason was the one that used the knife most of the time during the murders. However, nobody at no point had ever said that that knife that Jesse described did not match the one that was found in the water.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

Now, who. What did it match? It matched a knife. It matched Rambo's knife, and it also matched a knife that several people had pointed out that Damien was known to have possessed or carried at one point.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Right.

[Captain]

And based on Jesse's confession, Damien didn't use a knife.

[Nick]

But again, it doesn't matter if I have a Rambo knife or not, because that's not the knife that was used in the confession, and it was probably not the knife that was used in the crime at all.

[Captain]

They do a lot of hearsay stuff. I mean, when they have him read these quotes from one of his journals or one of his folders, and he's quoting, like, he's writing down quotes from William Shakespeare and Metallica. And what's so wrong about that? Like what? That's. That's not evidence of anything.

[Nick]

I wrote down plenty of Metallica quotes when I was in high school.

[Captain]

Well, I don't think you call them quotes, though. They're lyrics. But anyways, the point is that, you know, that's something that, you know. Damien seems like a guy that's constantly searching for knowledge, so I think it started way back then, even though he was a shitty student. But they used that against him in this trial. But it's not evidence. It's just speculation or hearsay.

[Nick]

There was eyewitness testimony against Damien. Somebody had seen Damien near the scene of the crime on May 5. Now, who was that? That was his girlfriend. That was her aunt that had seen him. The problem with this eyewitness testimony was that she never says that she sees Damien with Jason or with Jesse. She sees Damien with her niece, Domini. Well, that's a little strange, because at no point in Jesse Misskelley's confession is Dominique ever present. So is this evidence, or is this just something that. That might point to him being innocent? Of mistaken identity? I believe that the aunt would be able to easily identify the two. The two kids, you know, Domini and. And Damien. But did she just get the. The wrong day? You know, did she just get.

[Captain]

It could have been. It could have been any day.

[Nick]

What was. What was Damien's alibi for that night?

[Captain]

It was. Well, he. There's a bunch of different versions, but I think the one that they settle on as that he was talking to some girls on the phone.

[Nick]

Yeah. There's a few things to back up his alibi for that evening. He was with Jason, and they had gone to Jason's uncle's house to cut the grass.

[Captain]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Well, this is confirmed by Jason. It's also confirmed by Jason's uncle. Now, this would have taken place well before the boys had disappeared, though, because Damien had said that at some point either his father or his mother had come and picked them up and taken him home. On the way home, they stopped and they completed several errands before they got home. He says that he believes that he was picked up probably about 5:30 from Jason's uncle's house. Now, one thing that kind of goes along with his story, though, is, remember, they're running errands. Well, one of the errands is Damien had been to several mental hospitals. He had. He was being treated for depression.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

So he had a prescription that needed to be picked up. Now, we can't say, or we can Cabo. We can't say with certainty that Damien was the person that picked up that prescription. However, the pharmacy did provide proof that that prescription was picked up that evening.

[Captain]

That's close enough.

[Nick]

And Damien had said that, and they had stopped on the way home to pick up this prescription. This was one of the errands that they were running. And this was. This also goes with his mother's story and his father's story as well.

[Captain]

Yeah, it's also kind of goes with Jason's story as well, too.

[Nick]

Yep. And you're exactly right. Once Damien got home, he said he spent the evening at home on the phone with two girls from Memphis, Tennessee. Well, and the girls from Memphis, Tennessee would say, yes, we spoke to Damien that evening. What's another thing against Damien? Well, there were some fibers that were found at the crime scene. There was a red fiber and there was a green fiber. Now, police would be able to. They remember, they searched all of these suspects homes and trailers, and during the search, they were able to come up with a fiber that matched the green fiber that was found at the crime scene. They found this fiber in Damien's trailer.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

However, there is a side note there. It. It. It was. I don't know what the fiber was from. They don't specifically list what the fiber was from. However, it was mentioned that this would not be an article of clothing that would have been worn by Damien, that this had come from some kind of green shirt. What I'm getting at is it's. It may not have been a man's shirt. It may not have been a shirt that would have fit him at the time he was waiting on a child to be born. Maybe it was a piece of child's clothing. So for whatever reason, they don't specifically say where that fiber came from. Now, they do say the fiber matched. However, the defense would point out that you could walk into any Walmart and find a green Fiber that would match that fiber that was found.

[Captain]

Or possible you could walk into any of the victims homes and probably find a fiber that would match that.

[Nick]

Well, that leads us to the red fiber. Right, so there was a red fiber that was found. And this they, when they searched Jason Baldwin's trailer, they found a red fiber that matched that fiber.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

Again, this was from an article. Clothing that would probably not have been worn by Jason Baldwin. Do you know what they found that red fiber from? It was a red woman's bathrobe. It was his mother's bathrobe. So unless he wore the his mom's

[Captain]

bathrobe down, I mean, it could transfer, right?

[Nick]

Right. These things can transfer. You're exactly right, Captain. However, I mean, it's not super likely. And again, this red fiber was again, another fiber that you could find anything in Walmart or.

[Captain]

Yeah, or go to the three victims homes and try to find that same fiber. See, I'd, I'd have more weight on that if they could tell me. Oh, yeah, we went to the victim's houses and we couldn't find a match to this.

[Nick]

The thing about Jason Baldwin is, other than Jesse Misskelley's confession in that red fiber, they had nothing linking Jason Baldwin to this crime.

[Captain]

Right. And that's why they tried him together.

[Nick]

They tried them together. And, and the thing is, I killed by association. If you would have tried Jason Baldwin by himself without that confession, I don't know how you would get a guilty plea. I don't know how you get a guilty verdict.

[Captain]

No. Well, I don't know how they got a guilty verdict anyways, other than what came out later. Do you want to talk about that?

[Nick]

Of course. But real quick, they are both convicted, they are both found guilty, and Damien Echols receives the death penalty and Jason Baldwin receives life imprisonment. After the trial, the movies start to come out. We have documentaries coming out. We talked about the Paradise Lost movies. We talked about the west of Memphis documentary. There's these books coming out.

[Captain]

Well, but after the Paradise Lost documentaries come out, it kind of, it goes from a witch hunt to, hey, maybe these guys are not guilty of this crime. And a bunch of celebrities start getting involved, people like Johnny Depp, Eddie Vedder, the Dixie Chicks. And they start raising money for their defense. Now it's reported, and here's what I hate about this report. 10 to 20 million, that's a big difference to me. So either way, it was a lot of money that was raised.

[Nick]

Am I crazy or does Eddie Vedder keep popping up in all of Our. Like every other case we cover, he's. He's.

[Captain]

Eventually, Eddie will be on our show. I mean, he was in the Brian Schaefer case and now he's in this one.

[Nick]

Yeah, he's.

[Captain]

Maybe he's just a true crime fan. Eddie, thanks for listening.

[Nick]

Thanks for listening. Yeah, I believe Marilyn Manson was involved too. And you also had. Who was the black flag?

[Captain]

I don't know if Henry Rollins. I don't know if Marilyn Manson was involved. I think there was some pictures and stuff taken afterwards once they got out. And then people started saying how much he was involved. I don't know how much he was involved.

[Nick]

Well, Damien Eccles said that he was. That. That Manson was a supporter financially as well as emotionally and whatever.

[Captain]

I didn't hear that.

[Nick]

But. But the reason being was that, you know, most people.

[Captain]

But if he said it, I agree with him.

[Nick]

Well, in. In the public eye, Marilyn Manson's not a welcomed figure amongst most people, especially the religious groups.

[Captain]

Yeah, I like them, though. And he's welcome in the garage.

[Nick]

Yeah. But the thing is, Damien Echols is trying to prove that he's not a Satanist because he was basically. He was basically proven guilty because it was speculated that he was into Satan

[Captain]

and that he was into witchcraft. Marilyn, thanks for the donation, but I can't.

[Nick]

And so befriending somebody like Marilyn Manson and bringing him to the forefront, then it looks a little like maybe you are Satanist. Not saying that Marilyn Manson is, but. But it was agreed upon. And I think it might have been even been Marilyn Manson's idea was that. How about I support you from behind the scenes because me being involved might. Might look bad for you.

[Captain]

Yeah, yeah, totally. Makes a lot of sense. So these guys get involved.

[Nick]

Natalie Mains was involved.

[Captain]

I said Dixie Chicks.

[Nick]

Did you.

[Captain]

I included all of them. It might have just been her. But so they get involved and this money is being raised and what they're trying to do. And this is good because they're looking for evidence to point to the fact that they're innocent. They're also looking for, you know, little loopholes in the system. They're. They're looking for everything. But they're also hiring investigators to start questioning people. Now. In Paradise Lost, like we said, they go after buyers, and then if you watch west of Memphis, they go after Hobbs. The problem with both of these individuals is there's not a lot of evidence that links either one of these two. There is a ton of speculation, there is a ton of character. I don't want to Call it character assassination because I think some of these people are just weird people, but it's stuff that attacks their character just like they did with Damien, which is not real evidence.

[Nick]

You're exactly right. Exactly what they did to Damian and Jason and Jesse, I mean, other than the confession of Jesse. Right, but, but what happened to Jesse, Jason and Damian, I'm sorry. Is exactly what happened to Mark Byers and then Terry Hobbs. And first of all, what, what did they have against Mark Byers? Okay. They point out that they. He has times of the evening that he's unaccounted for.

[Captain]

Well, he talked to the police officers so much that night. I mean, he was around police officers a lot. He had a lot of communication with police officers. He's asking police officers, what should I do? Because I don't know what to do in this point.

[Nick]

Not only is he around police officers, but we just went through his timeline. There's not enough time for him to have committed this crime and to hide the bodies the way that they were hid. They. He was around other people almost that entire evening. Yeah, he might have had 10 minutes here or 5 minutes there by himself, but that's not the amount of time that it would have taken to conceal these bodies. Now they go after him because of a few different things. Well, there's a bite mark on Stevie Branch's face.

[Captain]

They think it might be a bite mark. Originally came out as a belt like buckle mark. They thought it was a belt buckle mark.

[Nick]

And when I read the autopsy and from, from the testimony of the medical examiner's office in both of the trials, there was more than just that. There, there was not only a belt mark on one of the kids or what appeared, what could have been a belt mark on one of the kids, but there was also definitely a bite or could be a bite on Stevie Branch's face. But they actually believed that there was more than one bite on his face. There was always this one bite that was talked about. There was believed that there was multiple. There was multiple attacks to the face. And several of them look like they could have been bites.

[Captain]

That's crazy.

[Nick]

Now one thing that made him Byers look guilty was he had had his teeth removed or he had lost his teeth.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

And we're, we're uncertain about how he lost his teeth or why he didn't have teeth or whatever. People claim that because he replaced his teeth that that was to hide his guilt.

[Captain]

Well then also the bite mark there is a bunch of stuff online. Terry Hobbs has partials. He had partials at the time. So partials are where they like, make kind of dentures, but they connect to other teeth. And if you look at the imprint that it matches Hobbs, now I've looked at him, it looks pretty convincing. The other problem is, is we have to bring into the snapping turtle thing. There was marks on the ears, nose, mouth, possibly face. And those might be consistent with postmortem bites by the snapping turtles.

[Nick]

Now, I should point out here, though, that I don't think that regardless if this was injuries that were post mortem by snapping turtles or if they were marks or bite marks or damage done to the face or bodies of the boys while they were still alive, I don't really think that snapping turtles being involved points to anybody being innocent.

[Captain]

No, no, no.

[Nick]

The, the only thing that it might point to is the, the damage that was done to Christopher Byers where they had said that, you know, the removement of the.

[Captain]

Yeah, the castration.

[Nick]

The castration would be. Would be something that would be done in a satanic ritual. So that would be the only thing that might link to somebody being innocent. People also want to point out that Mark Byers had had moments where he was violent before the boys were killed. He had a. He had an instance where he had attacked his first wife. And that was on police record. She said that he had threatened to kill her and that he was attacking her with a stun gun with like a zapper. And that was of police record.

[Captain]

Interesting choice of weapons.

[Nick]

Yeah. And. And that he had been violent afterwards.

[Captain]

Knife. I'll take the stun gun. Well, no. And then his wife dies a mysterious death.

[Nick]

Yeah. And he says that, you know, that she died in bed with him. And people have always wondered about that as well. I. I don't find anything there. I don't see anything there.

[Captain]

If there was something there, the police would have, I think, would have dove into that a little more.

[Nick]

And I don't think that if you review his history and Melissa Byers history, they're not the most healthy people. And what I mean by that is at one point Melissa had been on. She had been using like heroin or some kind of strong drug. And they were both known to be on and off of pills and maybe cocaine from time to time. So they had had a history of living hard, let's say. And so it doesn't surprise me that she didn't live to be super old.

[Captain]

So, I mean, there's definitely some weird stuff with buyers, but nothing that really points to them directly.

[Nick]

No, because here's the thing. I, I don't care if somebody was, you know, it's, it's not a good thing to ever be violent. But I don't care if somebody has a record of being violent in the past or in the future. It. All that matters is was he violent that day? Was he violent, was he homicidal that day? And the problem that I have with that is yes, he's a strange bird, man. There's no arguing that. And is he weird? Does he, did he fail a polygraph test? Yes. Did he pass a polygraph test? Yes. Did he submit everything that they asked him to submit? Yes, he submitted blood, hair, fingerprints. They didn't find anything of his ever at the crime scene. And furthermore, we just went through a timeline in episode two that does not allow a window, window of time to do any of these deeds.

[Captain]

Also, like you said, he has to be homicidal that day. And so then he would have to talk to police officers multiple times. And to cover up that he spoke

[Nick]

to the police more than anybody else during the search for these boys. And not only did he, not only did he, was he the first to call police, he had spoken to several police officers when he was out searching for his boy. And not only that, he came home at 11 or 12 o' clock at night and called the sheriff's department and complained that they weren't doing everything that they could do to find his son and the other boy. Right.

[Captain]

And if you're guilty of it, you don't want to go, hey, cops, cops, we need more cops.

[Nick]

And furthermore, he was, he was. When they said that they were going to investigate the families, people that knew the boys, people that didn't know the boys and either a gang or an or cult, the, the one person out of all the families that they investigated and talked to more than anybody else was John Mark Byers. He spoke to them often, willingly and often.

[Captain]

Well, he likes to talk.

[Nick]

Okay, so what about the people that may or may not have known the boys? Well, this would be some of the miscellaneous people that the police had spoken to.

[Captain]

Mr. Bojangles.

[Nick]

Yeah, so we got the problem with the Bojangles restaurant.

[Captain]

So yeah, real quickly, the guy goes into women's restroom, he's bloody, he's muddy, he leaves some evidence behind, they collect it and then they lose the evidence.

[Nick]

They conveniently lose the evidence. And nothing, nothing's known about this guy. And unfortunately, before the police, before Regina Meeks can arrive, this person has already wandered off. According to the manager. I think there's something there because there's some, there's, there's something about the timing of that. You know, she arrives about 8:30 to go talk to the restaurant manager, which is a strange time for me because I don't know. The boys are last seen about 6, 6:30. It's starting to get dark around that time.

[Captain]

It's a window of about two hours.

[Nick]

Yeah. And nobody knows who this person is. He's not identified.

[Captain]

And there was a African American hair found at the scene.

[Nick]

Yes, there was. And that, that has never been fully explained.

[Captain]

But. So it's, it's very interesting. Interesting. But it's this big question mark.

[Nick]

And then again, we talked about the vans. There were, there were multiple sightings of these strange vans. One, one black van was found parked on an abandoned property that was near the woods. And that was spotted that night. That was actually spotted by John Mark Byers and several other people that had reported it to police. There was also the strange white man that was driving the white van.

[Captain]

Some white man and the white van.

[Nick]

Some reported a young man and a white van. Some reported an old man and a white.

[Captain]

And we got a black man and a black van.

[Nick]

Well, there was reported a black man in a white van with a, with an Illinois license plate.

[Captain]

Okay, get it together. Okay. But all at the end of the day, it's a big question mark. And we wish we KNEW More about Mr. Bojangles.

[Nick]

Yeah. There were also the boys, the teenage boys that reported seeing coming out of Robin Hood Hills by Dawn Moore, the sister of Michael Moore.

[Captain]

And that would be the one white male and two black males.

[Nick]

Yeah. And we don't know that that means anything. And who knows, who knows what time that was. The girl is, she's about 10 years old. She's not able to give an accurate time.

[Captain]

Well, and it could not be an accurate statement. It could have been three white boys or it could be three black boys. We're not really for sure. So that's this big question mark there. But then there was two gentlemen that left west of Memphis like 10 days after the murders take place. And then those boys head out to California. So they track those boys down.

[Nick]

Yeah. So the, the story with those guys about four days after the bodies were found, Chris Morgan and Brian Holland, they were known in the area. They had prior drug offenses. They were kind of on the police spotlight. Let's say they were aware of these characters and these guys had taken off and they had gone for California and they arrested them in California on May 17, 1993. This is an Oceanside now They picked them up because they're concerned about why would they. What they're going to refer to as flee the area shortly after the murders? Well, they took off about, as we said, four days after the bodies were found. They're picked up on the 17th and they're given polygraph exams. Now, they are asked similar questions that

[Captain]

we mentioned, which they don't have to take these tests, but they do because they're cooperating and they're doing that. What's it called, the survey, the FBI survey.

[Nick]

And it's. It's like we had said, the FBI, worked with the West Memphis police, came up with this questionnaire. They're giving them similar questions that they gave to Jesse Misskelley in the. In his confession. And they, they come back and they say, well, you're lying. And we, We've seen this before, right? We're going to interrogate you further. Well, at some point during the interrogation, one of the boys. And I say boys because these are pretty young men. I mean, they're like 18, 19 years old. And one of them had said that he might have known one or several of the murdered boys because he had previously driven in a ice cream truck and he had a route in the neighborhood.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

So he makes sense. Yeah. He said that he may have known one or the one or all of them. And after.

[Captain]

At least seen them.

[Nick]

Yeah. And after being talked to for a while, they held them there for quite some time and questioned them for quite some time. One of them had a drug and alcohol problem, and he had said that at times he would even experience blackouts and memory lapses, and he couldn't account for some of his time. At some point, this interview becomes very heated. And at some point he starts. He stands up on the chair and he's yelling at the officers. And his exact statement is this. Do you want me to lie? Do you want me to lie? You want me to say that I killed those boys? Okay, maybe I killed him. He says something to, to that. That's not verbatim, but he's, he's yelling.

[Captain]

That's not a confession.

[Nick]

He's right. He's yelling at these officers. And, and to be honest with you, if I've read the. His whole statement, I wouldn't say that I would do the exact thing, but I, I would probably do something very similar, you know, because I've always wondered when you see these people being interrogated and they're being. And they know they're innocent, and yet these people just keep poking at them and poking at him, poking at him. I'm not saying that I would stand up and say, yeah, I killed him. What I'm saying is I could see myself getting angry and yelling back and getting verbal and getting hostile with these officers.

[Captain]

Well, this actually happened to me in eighth grade. So here's the story. This girl, somebody throws a full pop can unopened at this little girl, and it hits her in the head. And they said I did it. So they pull me down to the police, or not to the police, to the principal's office, and he's going to town on me, right? He's going. He's saying, you did this. You know, you did this.

[Nick]

Polygraphed you and waterboard you and everything.

[Captain]

Yeah. And I'm saying, I didn't do this. I didn't do this. And I couldn't figure out how I knew. I mean, one, I knew I didn't throw the can, but. But I knew for a fact that I. I didn't do this. And then halfway through him yelling at me, I realized I wasn't even on the bus that day. I missed the bus and my father had to take me to school. So now I'm screaming, I wasn't even on the bus. And he's going, yes, you were. And I end up standing up, throwing the. My chair, and then slamming his door on my way out. And it broke the door. And then I got in trouble for that. I got suspended. Like in school suspension. But it's bullshit anyways. You're. You're falsely accusing me of something, and I proved that I was even on the bus, so I shouldn't got in trouble in the first place.

[Nick]

And that proves my point. I've always thought that at some point I wouldn't be able to take it anymore and I would just kind of start yelling, shit, yeah. If you're ever pulled in anywhere, you should just always ask for an attorney. Always ask for an attorney.

[Captain]

Well, they want to let me. I was asking the.

[Nick]

No, not you. I'm talking about these guys in Californ, California. So here's the real story. This is the story that we get told, right? But what. What we're not told and what. What you will find once you dive into this particular part of the case is that these two guys didn't just get up and leave. They received a ride from friends of theirs. They rode out there with several friends of theirs that was traveling elsewhere and dropped them off along the way. They didn't have any intention of living out the rest of their lives in California. Or on the run. They planned to be in California for a few weeks or maybe a month, and they wanted to return back to the Memphis area.

[Captain]

Right. So it seems like, hey, we're going out that way if you want to visit your sister, which. That's who they're visiting. It was one of the guys sisters. But, hey, we're going out that way. You want to hitch a ride?

[Nick]

And not only that, they willingly submitted blood and urine samples as well as fingerprints. And they. They went along with the polygraph, they went along with the interview, they went

[Captain]

along with the questionnaire, just like Damien Atkles and Jason Baldwin.

[Nick]

The only thing here is that when they submitted this evidence to what could be evidence to West Memphis police.

[Captain]

Don't tell me they lost it.

[Nick]

They didn't lose it. No, they didn't lose it. They just. There seems to be. No, they didn't do anything with it.

[Captain]

All right, so they didn't test it. Well, good job.

[Nick]

There's plenty of other miscellaneous people, too, that are involved in this case. But it's also, like we said, it's. It's just minutiae. It's just small, little incidences of people that had done things in the past. They question, you get about a paragraph worth of notes of an interview that was conducted by police. Some of them submitted blood, urine, fingerprints. Some of them submitted to polygraph test. None of that seems to have gone anywhere. So now we have what we're left with. Terry Hobbs. He's a big question mark.

[Captain]

We're left with Terry Hobbs in the West Memphis three. That's what we're doing. We're down to.

[Nick]

So what are the problems with Terry Hobbs? This comes about when. 2007. Ish. This comes about before the Alford plea.

[Captain]

Well, yeah, because they. They go after buyers first and then. But they start doing tests. And like I said, the money that was raised, they have investigators on the ground, and I think that's where it starts coming from. They finally are able to test DNA on this hair sample.

[Nick]

This hair sample is found in one of the shoelaces that is binding Michael Moore. Tying the hand to the ankle. Now this is. It comes back and it does not. What does it do? It. It does eliminate Damien Echols. It doesn't match Jesse Misskelley, and it doesn't match Jason Baldwin. However, it is not inconsistent with that of the hair of Terry Hobbs. Meaning it could be his hair, but

[Captain]

it's not exact match.

[Nick]

No.

[Captain]

And there's different matches as far as DNA goes. So it's just it's not an exact match. It's just in the ballpark.

[Nick]

And let's talk about this for a second. We have. What are the percentages? They come out and they say it's one and a half percent of the population would match this hair, something like that. Okay, so the population at. In West Memphis at the time of 1993 and is roughly between 25,000 and 30,000 people. So that means that that hair and just the people that live in that area would match Terry Hobbs plus 249 to 299 other people.

[Captain]

Right. It's still. I mean, it's. It's suspicious, though. But then you talk about transfer. I mean, one of the boys that was a victim was his stepson. And then these boys were known to play. Play in his house. So, again, that's something that can be transferred. We're talking about one hair.

[Nick]

Well, and that's also going under the assumption that Michael Moore was tied up by his own shoelaces. One thing that we're not able to figure out when we look at the evidence is what boy was tied up with what boy's shoelaces. It. Just because. Just because they were each tied up with shoelaces doesn't mean that they were tied up with their own. You're talking about there's a chance that. That. That shoelace binding Michael Moore could have been Stevie Branch's shoelace.

[Captain]

Well, and it would make a lot of sense why there's a hair of his stepdad on his shoe.

[Nick]

Now, there's another problem, though, with Terry Hobbs. His friend David Jacoby, they find a hair of his on a tree at the crime scene.

[Captain]

Well, remember, with the timeline, they both claimed that they were in those woods on the 5th looking for the boys.

[Nick]

Exactly. Not only do they both claim it, but you also have John Mark. Mark Byers, who. Who's very convinced that the two of them are probably guilty.

[Captain]

He also says convinced now, though.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Captain]

But he was also convinced that the West Memphis three were guilty at the beginning.

[Nick]

And he. He does say in his statement to police at the time, this is a statement given in 1993, that he had saw Terry Hobbs multiple times in the woods when he was searching. Terry Hobbs was searching as well, and that he couldn't remember for certain. But he. He might have had his friend with him.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

This is the same friend that would be talking to them underneath the streetlight. So there is some explanation why those hairs or fibers would have been found there.

[Captain]

Yeah. Then a lot of the other stuff, if you Watch west of Memphis. It's just a lot of stuff that dives into his character and it seems like there's some shady stuff going on there. The problem is the source is coming from. It's coming from Pam Hobbs, which is now his ex wife. And they were together for almost 10 years before she started making these claims.

[Nick]

Yeah. At no point in 1993 when she talks to police does she ever say that Terry Hobbs is guilty of anything

[Captain]

or suspects him or says much bad about him. And it's not till years and years and years later and now mentioned that I feel bad for Pam Hobbs because she seems like somebody and she has the right to. You don't have to get over this tragedy. But she seems like somebody that is going to be permanently scarred, haunted. This event that happened on May 5 changed everything and I don't think for the better.

[Nick]

Yeah, it's definitely ruined her life. And, you know, she's tried to go on, but you can tell when she talks that it's. It's with her every day. She carries it around with her. And you have to. I mean, you. It's.

[Captain]

Yeah, but she's carrying the burden more than a lot. A lot of people would. And I. And I totally understand that because nobody could be in that. No, it's just impossible to put myself in her situation.

[Nick]

It's nothing I've ever experienced. And I can't believe that it's something that you get over. I guess that at some point it's something that maybe you have to just accept.

[Captain]

But it just seems like the axe accusations that she's coming out about Terry Hobbs are so far after the fact that it's just hard to believe. So. And then there's talk in like west of Memphis, again, in character stuff.

[Nick]

Well.

[Captain]

And then he.

[Nick]

He shot one of her brothers.

[Captain]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Captain]

Yeah.

[Nick]

That doesn't look good, right?

[Captain]

No, there's a lot of stuff that does. Doesn't look good.

[Nick]

Well. Well, if we're going to bring that up though, we should probably tell a bit of the story of maybe why he shot the brother. Right.

[Captain]

Well, there was altercation between him and Pam and then she. Again, the day on the 5th, calls her family and her. You know, like we said, Terry Hobbs is looking and Pam Hobbs's dad is. Is looking. So she calls after this altercation and the dad and the brother come out and the brothers were known to kind of harass some of the. The female.

[Nick]

Well, not the females, but. What happened?

[Captain]

Not the females, but the. The.

[Nick]

Pam comes from a big family. She's got a couple sisters, she's got a couple brothers. And apparently throughout the times growing up in an adulthood that some of the sisters had had problems with boyfriends or husbands.

[Captain]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And when those problems came up, sometimes dad was notified and sometimes dad showed up with the sons who were willing and able to confront and maybe attack the boyfriend or husband of. Of the sister.

[Captain]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Of any of the sisters. So. And now this is what happened with Terry Hobbs and Pam Hobbs. There's an altercation. According to him, she got physical first and then he got physical back.

[Captain]

And either way, it's not right on

[Nick]

both ends and nobody should get physical with anybody. But a phone call is made to dad and then the brother comes out and Terry. I don't know how exactly it went down at that point, but I'm. But he kind of greets him with a shotgun or not a shotgun, but a pistol or something.

[Captain]

Yeah. And he claims that he was. Was attacked and then he was defending himself. Now here's what we do know is that there's Pam's side and then there's Terry side and somewhere in the middle is the truth. And that's all we know. So there's just a lot of hearsay. There's a lot of speculation. All you have is this fiber. Not a fiber, but a hair sample. His timeline doesn't, you know, there are

[Nick]

some spots in his timeline.

[Captain]

There's a little weird.

[Nick]

And here's the problem though, with his timeline. You know, Pam gives a statement back In May of 93, Terry Hobbs gives no statement. That's not through any fault of his own. That's through the fault of the West Memphis police. They never interview him. They came by the house, they interviewed Pam, and Terry wasn't there that day. So they never bothered to get back around to interviewing Terry. Now furthermore, when they interview Pam, it's a short interview. There's basically a couple sentences to describe what she says that. That she was doing and her husband were doing that day. And they just take it as fact and they left it at that. Now, so these reports were not coming out. There's not good reports coming out. There's not a good solid interview of Pam Hobbs or Terry Hobbs until 2007. And this carries on to David Jacoby as well. He's not interviewed until 2007.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

Yeah.

[Captain]

Then they're re interviewed for the west west of Memphis documentary. And then the. Because of this documentary, the police go back and interview Terry Hobbs and you can watch that whole. It's not an interrogation, it's Definitely a casual interview. I wouldn't call it interrogation. You can watch all that online. I think there's definitely some stuff that seems fishy, but at the end of the day, where's the evidence? This, this hair that matches so many other people. And as far as transferring goes, it makes a lot of sense. So again, another person where there's just a. Not, not enough pointing at him and then the stuff that are pointing at the things that they do point at them, look where it's coming from.

[Nick]

What about the knife? Here's another knife that's brought into this case.

[Captain]

Yeah, the, the pocket knife.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Captain]

Stevie Branch was Boy Scout.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Captain]

And so he had this little pocket knife. And so Pam Hobbs claims that he would have had that pocket knife on him that day. So then the boys are found and later on, like a year or so later, she finds the knife and Terry Hobbs is like nightstand.

[Nick]

And yeah, she says that Stevie would not have gone anywhere without that knife. Here's a couple things about that. First of all, he came home from school and he left almost immediately to go out and play after coming home from school. From school.

[Captain]

So chances are they didn't take the knife to school.

[Nick]

Everybody knows you shouldn't carry a knife to school. Doesn't stop some boys. But. But I'm guessing he probably didn't have it with him and he wasn't at home long enough to think about grabbing it again.

[Captain]

Then Terry Hobbs's story is that he was messing around with a knife and he just thought, my boy doesn't need to have this knife. He's messing around with it. He's not being responsible with it.

[Nick]

And Terry Hobbs is not saying I took the knife from him on May 5th. He's saying I took it to him prior to Mayfair.

[Captain]

Right. And that's something. Again, he's a stepfather, so he's disciplining some. You know, I was a stepfather before, so I, I've had the same situation. One of my boys was messing around with a knife and I had to say to him, hey, can you, can you not do that? That's not responsible. This is not a toy. And I had to take it away and I put it into a little box. And then one day my wife sees, you know, my ex wife sees the knife and says, what's this? And I had to explain the situation. And it's the same situation as Terry Hobbs.

[Nick]

Another thing that I want to bring up is how the police acted shortly after finding the bodies. Remember in episode one, we had said that all of the items all of the clothing that was reported to be on the persons of the missing boys, all of it was recovered with the exception of a single sock and two pair of underwear. Right. So. So that's all that was. Was missing. Now, later, this was days after the bodies were found, police went to the families and they had said, could there have been anything else with these boys that we didn't find? Could there be anything that you could think of? Would any of them have had a pocket knife? And they specifically say pocket knife. Would any of them have had a billfold? Would any of them have a pin on their hat or a pin on their shirt? The reason why they're asking about these things is because they want to know if they pick somebody up or they're searching somebody's home and they come across one of these items, they've found their person.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

No items, they're. They're. At one point, the Buyers family says that they're the. That Christopher may have carried a billfold with him. At one point, I believe the Moore family says that Michael may have had a pin on his shirt or he

[Captain]

may have had a pocket stuff.

[Nick]

Yeah, exactly. So there's a few things that are brought up that they may have had. None of the parents are able to say with certainty that. That any other items that. That that weren't already located were on any of those boys. Pam Hobbs never mentions this pocket knife.

[Captain]

Yeah, it's something that seems like it's always after the fact. You know, it's after the fact. And now let's point the finger. And so. Yeah, is it. Is Hobbs a little fishy? Yes, little fishy. And with the bite marks, I'm telling you, if you look up the bite marks and the partial he had, it just looks. I mean, it looks like a Zach match. It's not enough for me to say that he's guilty. I Look, keep looking into him. Maybe you'll find something. Maybe you'll get a confession one day. I don't know. But there's not enough for me to point to him saying, hey, this guy's guilty.

[Nick]

That leaves us with the West Memphis Three. Now, we have. We all know that they took an Alford plea. What is that? That means that they are going to. Can they're going to say that they're guilty?

[Captain]

Well, no, no, they're. They're. They're going to claim their innocence, but they're pleading guilty.

[Nick]

Yes. And so the judge accepts their plea. This was in 2011. And immediately after accepting their plea, he sentenced all three of them to 18 years and 78 days.

[Captain]

Right. The time served. So the reason why this came about was because of all this new evidence that they're uncovering, the DNA. And then we have the guy on the jury. You want to talk about that real quick?

[Nick]

Yeah. So the jury foreman, he was in charge of the jury. He's going to lead all their little meetings that they have. And the problem that they have is they're able to figure out by reviewing the notes that were taken by the jurors that at some point somebody had brought up the confession that Jesse Misskelley had given.

[Captain]

Right. And if you remember us saying the confession was not allowed to try Jason

[Nick]

or Damien, it was not allowed to be brought forth into the court, it was not allowed to be discussed, and you could not use that confession to weigh their guilt or innocence.

[Captain]

Right. So when people saw these documentaries, which are not complete, it's not a bunch of facts. It's just. It's a lot of these documentaries are entertainment based, but when you see this and you go, well, how the hell did they find them guilty? There's not enough evidence. Well, when somebody's saying there was a confession, saying that these three boys did it, well, that's probably why they were found guilty.

[Nick]

So are they guilty? There are people coming out and saying, you know what? They got off. They got off pretty good.

[Captain]

Well, here's what's interesting is when they're first arrested, burn them, hang them, and then all of a sudden they're victims. Free them. Free them.

[Nick]

People go back and forth, and then they get out. Now everybody wants to.

[Captain]

Right now they're guilty again. And there's people like William Ramsey. He did a documentary called Abomination. He talks a lot about the cult stuff. Again, a lot of stuff he's bringing up is a lot of hearsay and speculation. Here's one of the things, and this is very freaky, but talks about Damien Echols having a spirit number. His spirit number being 5. What month did these happen in May, which is the fifth month. What day? The fifth month on a full moon, when he's at the softball field and he's talking about murders, he says, I killed these three boys, I'm going to kill two more, which would mean five. So if you go with this whole spirit number or whatever, yeah, it's a little freaky, but I don't know how much it adds up. It's. It's just, again, a lot of speculation. And Damien Echols seems to like to play. I don't want to Say devil's advocate, he kind of likes to play into people.

[Nick]

I think he likes to poke the bear.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

Is what he likes to do. But, but convenience. But you, as you had said, or we're trying to say, I believe, is it that whole spirit, that whole spirit number thing is no different than convicting somebody because they have long hair, wear black clothes.

[Captain]

Right. Or you listen to Metallica, so therefore you're a murderer. That's not how it works.

[Nick]

Is there anything. So do you think the West Memphis Three are guilty?

[Captain]

I don't think they are. I mean, I can't say that 100% because his first statement just feels real. But everything that Jason Baldwin says feels real to me. So maybe my gut is just wrong completely.

[Nick]

And Baldwin has always claimed innocence. And furthermore, not only that, when, when the prosecution didn't believe that the trial, the second trial, that of Damien and Jason, when they didn't believe it was going their way, and when they lost the confession of Jesse Misskelley, they went to Jason Baldwin and offered him a bargain. Yeah, they were going to, they were going to bargain and barter with him and they were willing to get him a 40 year sentence if he would testify against Damien Echols.

[Captain]

Well, and he also didn't want to take the Alfred plea because he knew that once they took the plea that the state would then stop their investigation. Now, what I think, my gut was telling me is that people fed Jesse Misskelley a little bit and he's simple. So I think he believed some of it and that's why it came off as authentic. But I don't, I just don't think that there's not enough for me to say that they're guilty. There's not enough for me to say they're 100% innocent either. But they weren't be, they wouldn't be the first people that I want to dive much into, and I do. So those are my thoughts. I think Jesse's simple and I believe a lot what Jason Baldwin says. As far as Damien Eccles, I think he says some weird stuff and pokes the bear. Like you were saying.

[Nick]

I, I'm in your camp, man. I, I, I believe that there are, there's a couple things that point towards their guilt and there's a lot of things that point to their innocence. I can't, can't say that they're innocent. Can't say that they're guilty. What I can say is I have a really hard time believing that there was enough to try anybody here. I, I, maybe You could try Jesse Misskel, but once that confession was thrown out, there was no evidence in my opinion against Damien or Jason. And furthermore, I believe that Jason should have been tried separately. I believe he was only convicted because he was tried with Damien and Damien was convicted on his bad name and his bad reputation and.

[Captain]

Yeah, and he was also convicted on, you know, searching for answers and when somebody is thirsty for knowledge. This is not something that we should be afraid of. This is something that especially in an 18 year old boy, he's becoming a young man by searching for answers and by searching for knowledge is how you're going to get there. And there's a million people that search for answers but they weren't in some small minded, closed minded town to get crucified for such.

[Nick]

And I've always thought that Jason and Jesse should have been tried as children. I understand that this is a heinous crime and a horrible crime but as far as the judicial systems as I'm concerned. Yeah, I'm not weighing the crime here. What I'm weighing is the people that are on trial and the evidence against them. And there wasn't much, there wasn't really anything at all. And I guess I would err on the side of caution that we're making a big mistake here and we would better, would be better off to try them as juveniles than adults. They were both juveniles and I mean Jason was 16 and Ms. Kelly was, might not be dealing with a full deck.

[Captain]

Yeah. And I hope their effort doesn't stop. I know that they're out, I know that they're free. I don't know if their names cleared completely because they took that odd plead plea deal. I, I know that the, the public opinion with them kind of goes back and forth. Guilty, innocent and it always seems to be this ever changing thing. These guys have the power. I'm not saying that they need to or should or have to spend any more time. They spent 18 years in prison for something they probably didn't do. But they have the power to keep getting resources and saying it's not enough that we're out of jail. It's we need answers on this case and it's only going to come from pressure.

[Nick]

But that requires the state to try somebody for this case. And the problem with that is they already have three people that are on the books guilty and have been convicted of.

[Captain]

No. And I understand that but what I'm saying is right now you got little sprinkles of evidence towards Hobbs, you got a little sprinkle of Evidence towards buyers. You, you have a little bit of sprinkle of evidence towards Mr. Bojangles little, little bit from West Memphis. Three. That's not enough. We need more. We need, we need something that, you know, makes us go, oh, that's something we can't dispute.

[Nick]

I'll go on record here. And I believe John Mark Byers got absolutely railroaded in this whole thing. Yeah, I believe that. Yes, he's a stranger, but there's some

[Captain]

sprinkles of evidence, there's some tidbits.

[Nick]

Yeah, there's some morsels and morsels. And it's, it's, it's strange and it's a strange case. However, when again, when I'm going to keep going back to the timeline of that night and that morning, there was just no time for him to do it. Whether you think he's capable or not, there was no time for him to do any of this. And I will go back to that every single time. I think he got absolutely railroaded. I think if the people that put together Paradise Lost 2 and if the author that put together the Devil's Not. Now, I want to go on record here, the Devil's not is a fantastic book. If you like this case, you should

[Captain]

definitely read recommended reading.

[Nick]

That's my recommended reading. However, I think that those two things railroaded buyers. And I think that if that, that author and the producers of that film would have spent enough time looking at his whereabouts that evening and what he was doing that night, they would never have made him a suspect. They would never maybe even considered it.

[Captain]

And how much time did that waste? How, how much time did people look into this guy when they could have been looking into somebody else?

[Nick]

Anyways, Terry Hobbs is the more likely suspect because there are some times in his timeline that would present some holes. There's a little bit of holes. There's not big holes, though, I would be expecting. But we do have gaps.

[Captain]

We have that hair and that. I mean, again, I think that's a transfer thing. That's what I believe.

[Nick]

Not only that, it matches 1.1% of the people in the area and everybody in the world. And you're talking about, you're talking about what, a football field or, or two football fields away from one of the most traveled freeways in, in America? And who's to say that somebody didn't stop off at the Blue Beacon and see these kids and do something terrible? Who's to say that there wasn't a pedophile or some monster in the neighborhood that that did something to these boys. And, and the African American hair is still not explained. And that was found damn near on one of the bodies. It was found in the sheet wrapping the buyer's boy.

[Captain]

Now this case reminds me of O.J. i mean, yeah, we did three parts of that, but it reminds me of O.J. because it's so huge and there's so much to dive into and there's so much out there, some just bullshit. But there's a lot, tons of facts on this that you can find actual facts and actual evidence on this case. But I feel like I had a stronger opinion before we started this case and now at the end of it, I'm just not super certain either way, other than there's not much evidence to point towards anybody.

[Nick]

I can't point to anything that would point to somebody. But what I can point to is I believe that had they taken this investigation and done it properly, there was no reason to, to assume that a gang or a cult or Satanist were involved in this crime. There was nothing that showed that at the scene to believe that.

[Captain]

Well, I mean, other than the fact that there's three victims. And so if it's, if it's one murderer, they have to control three victims.

[Nick]

Exactly, I get that. But what I'm getting at is it doesn't mean that you're sworn into some gang or some cult or you're Satanists that have to carry this out. It just means that you got three or two screwed up individuals that are homicidal maniacs that, that we've got to

[Captain]

find or one that's very clever.

[Nick]

So there, in my opinion, there was no reason for the investigation to take that route. And first of all, if they would have spent the, the proper amount of time and taken the proper amount of notes and conducted the right interviews and collected the right amount of evidence from all of the family members, members of the victims. If they would have spent time on that, then I really believe that we would have never discussed John Mark Byers, we would have never discussed Terry Hobbs because I believe that those people along with the other family members would have been cleared in the get go from this thing and we wouldn't have to sit around and argue about this.

[Captain]

Right. Speculate. Because we don't know. There's just holes, there's holes in their timeline, but there's also just holes in the investigation.

[Nick]

And I don't know that this means that somebody that didn't know the boys committed the crime. What I'm getting at is I don't believe the West Memphis Three did it. I don't believe that any of the family members did it. I think that this is somebody that is either unknown to the police or somebody that they had interviewed at some point in their investigation.

[Captain]

Yeah, and you told me about a week ago, which made me so mad that you don't know if this will ever be solved.

[Nick]

I actually believe that it will never be solved. And the reason being is because of that Alfred plea, I believe that the state of Arkansas has no motivation to solve this case. This is off their books as far as they're concerned.

[Captain]

All right, so we had to end it on a big bang. I want to thank everybody for a great season two and onward and upward to season three.

[Nick]

Yeah, things are going to be big and great and fantastic in season three. Can't wait.

[Captain]

And thanks for the support. We're glad that we could put out two episodes this week.

[Nick]

Yes, we are. As much as it pained me being in the garage with you all night,

[Captain]

you kind of smelled a little stinky in the garage.

[Nick]

Well, until next season, be good, be kind, and don't litter. Thank you.

[Captain]

Thank you.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

Why? I won't do two shows a night anymore, babe.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

I will.

[Nick]

Real talent is defined by what people can do, not where they learn to do it. So by stopping at the education section of a resume, you might throw away the perfect tire.

[Captain]

Skills first.

[Nick]

Hiring helps you see talent others miss. Like more than 70 million stars skilled through alternative routes let their story unfold and gain a competitive advantage. Because hiring managers who start with skills are 60% more likely to find a successful hire. Hire skills first. Learn why at tearthepaperceiling.org, brought to you by OpportunityAtWork and the Ad Council.