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- [00:00]
A
Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. Now I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back.
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B
So I thought it would be fun
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A
if we made $15 bills but it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a try@mintmobile.com switch upfront payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months or $180 or 12 month plan required $15 per month equivalent taxes and fees Extra initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes. Me slow when network is busy.
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B
See terms SA.
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A
Welcome to True Crime Garage. Wherever you are, whatever you're doing, thanks for listening. I'm your host Nick and with me as always is a man who knows that when pulled over for speeding, tell the police officer that your spouse has diarrhea. Here is the captain.
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B
When you're sliding into third and you feel a juicy turd diarrhea. It's good to be seen and good to see you. Thanks for listening. Thanks for telling a friend.
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A
Today we are very happy to be featuring Tiny European Cars Micro IPA by the amazing folks over at Twice Brewed in Northumberland. Tiny European Cars is a super sessionable hazy pale ale with notes of citrus and tropical fruits. Thanks to the very generous dry hops. This is a great thirst quenching beer with 1, 2, 3, 4 kinds of hops. ABV 2.4% garage grade 4 out of 5 bottle caps. And let's give some thanks and praise. First up it cheers to Shannon dawn in Albany, Kentucky. And last but certainly not least we have Rose from San Francisco. Everyone we mentioned, they went to truecrimegarage.com and clicked on the pint glass and for that we thank you.
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B
Yeah, BWR you and beer run. Treat yourself. That's right, treat yourself to the bonus content on Patreon or Apple subscription and colonel that's enough of the be.
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A
All right everybody gather round, grab a chair, grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime.
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B
Foreign.
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A
Case with you that is from across the pond. A case that rocked Britain. A shocking in public daytime murder of a major UK celebrity. This is a case that should be solved. Police had all modern investigative resources and technologies available to them and the killer was in plain sight. Yet the identity of the killer who pulled off an execution style shooting on a quiet residential street remains a mystery. Or does it? This is the still unsolved homicide case of Jill Dando and this is True Crime Garage. Jill Dando was born in Weston in Somerset, England on November 9, 1961. She was raised there along with her nine year older brother Nigel, by parents Jack and Jean. As a toddler, Jill was diagnosed with a faulty heart and had to have a surgery to repair a hole. But that didn't hold her back. She attended World Comprehensive School, the kind of rigorous lower school that requires a uniform and rote memorization. In college at Broad Oak, the equivalent of high school in the us, she was Head Girl, a privileged appointment reserved for the most exemplary kids. She also acted in a local theater group. Her father and brother worked for a local paper, the Westin Mercury. And at age 17, Jill applied for and landed a job there as a cub reporter. She also studied at the South Glamorgan Institute of Higher Education in Wales. Then it was on to radio and the popular news show Spotlight where she became a presenter and then the pinnacle, she went to work for the BBC in London. She hosted the six o' clock News and Breakfast News for the BBC. Then Jill hosted Crime Watch UK for years she had a real passion for hosting Crime Watch. She was also the host of the Upbeat Holiday, a travel show which took her all over the world. Jill's success was largely due to her girl next door looks and friendly manner. She wasn't a hard driving newswoman. She was a sunny and engaging face that audiences related to and many adored. She has been called the golden girl of British tv, sort of a Jane Pauley type. Jill was so popular she was named BBC Personality of the Year in 1997.
- [06:19]
B
And it wasn't just onward and upward with her career, but her personal life was taken off as well. She was recently engaged to be married.
- [06:28]
A
Recently engaged to be married at the time of her death. So the 37 year old was engaged to gynecologist Alan Farthing. The two met about 15 months earlier after Jill ended a seven year relationship with Bob Wheaton, who was he who was a TV executive. She was by all accounts super excited about her upcoming wedding and her future was looking great. Then in an instant, it all came to an end on April 26, 1999. Jill's death was immediately big news. It received worldwide coverage with morning news shows in the US and around the globe expressing their shock and disbelief at the cold blooded murder of a popular news anchor. To the Britons, it was a massive deal. The Queen and Prime Minister Tony Blair led the nation in tributes to Jill. All the UK tabloids blared the shooting on their front pages with headlines like Assassinated, Executed and Killed by a hitman. Jill's fiance, Dr. Allen Farthing, told the BBC, quote, I am totally devastated and unable to comprehend what has happened. Jill was respected for her professional ability, admired by all who met her, and adored by anyone who got to know her. End quote. Jill's funeral in her hometown of Weston was attended by by thousands of mourners who lined the streets and paid their respects as the funeral procession passed. Everyone was stunned and bewildered at the senseless loss.
- [08:09]
B
So let's dive into the known events of the day of the murder.
- [08:13]
A
At this time, Captain Jill owned a home in the Fulham neighborhood of London. This is a residential area with street after street of stately brick row houses. This was and is considered to be a clean and safe neighborhood with upper middle class residents. On the morning of Monday, April 26, 1999, Jill's neighbor, this is Helen Dobble, was walking down Goen Avenue at 11:47am when she saw Jill's BMW convertible parked on the street. Now, Jill was not typically at her flat at this time of day. In fact, she was typically not at this flat very much at all. She had essentially moved in with Allen. Remember, they're engaged at this point. And Jill, if she wasn't at Allen's place, she was always at work. She's on two different TV shows and traveling the globe for one of them. So her place sat empty most of the time. Helen noted the vehicle and immediately hope to see Jill. As they often would chat about random things and exchange niceties, they would chat just outside of Jill's door. But the occasions where they would bump into one another became increasingly rare as Jill was not usually there. Helen looked at the front door of number 29 Gowen Avenue and spotted Jill lying on her stoop with her keys in her hand. Helen said it took her a beat or two to realize it was Jill because of the way she looked. There was a massive pool of blood under her head and body. Helen called the police and said, a woman has collapsed and it looks like Jill Dando. She doesn't look like she's breathing. There's blood. Oh my God. No, I don't think she's alive. Somehow Helen's call came across as a stabbing. It's unclear whether she thought that's what actually happened or somehow the signals just got mixed up. But her call to police drew attention immediately as violence in the Fulham neighborhood was extremely unusual. Kensington PD Detective Chief Inspector Hamish Campbell was dispatched to the scene of a stabbing on Goen Avenue. Remember, that was the call that came in. While in route, he received a call that the victim was confirmed to be Jill Dando, the TV news presenter whose face was familiar all across the uk.
- [10:59]
B
Be different than a lot of murder cases because normally we find the victim inside, this victim is outside. So when the EMTs and the police officers arrive, they see her laying there on her stoop.
- [11:13]
A
And this is the middle of the day, too, broad daylight, Captain. They arrive on scene, they find Jill lying in a massive pool of blood. She has no pulse, but they do try to resuscitate her. Unfortunately, the result, she passes away. By the time the inspector, again his name, Hamish Campbell, arrives on the scene, the scene is somewhat disturbed because they're trying to save her life, but there's people kind of milling about, people that should be there. So blood patterns are disrupted, fingerprints are disrupted and so on. This is outside, as you pointed out, Captain, and that creates an issue for investigators as it limits the amount of control that you have of your crime scene. Joe was taken to nearby Charing Cross Hospital, where she was confirmed to be dead on arrival at 1:03pm on that Monday. Now, the news could not be contained. Investigators had no time to try to control what got out to the public and what did not. BBC presenter Jenny Bond interrupted the broadcast of that day with obvious shock and dismay in her voice, informing the public that one of their own, her friend, the publicly beloved Jill Dando, had been attacked and stabbed to death in front of her home. Again, we know it was a gun that was used to kill her. However, the reports at the time, the early reports, was that it was a stabbing. Jill's brother Nigel, he's working at the Bristol Evening Post that very day. And of course, he sees the news right away as the reports are coming in about his sister. Sister. He said later that his first priority became getting to their elderly father so that he could tell his father rather than hearing it on the news.
- [13:11]
B
Right.
- [13:12]
A
When Inspector Campbell arrived at the scene on Goen Avenue, officers on the scene directed his attention to something on the ground. This was a 9 millimeter shell casing lying near where Jill's body had been. She hadn't been stabbed, as we said. Her autopsy would later confirm it. She had died from a close contact gunshot wound to the left side of her head. And from what I have seen here, Captain, it appears, the way that the scene is described, that Jill was arriving at her flat to go inside the flat rather than leaving that day.
- [13:56]
B
Yeah, and it doesn't seem to me that this is a robbery attempt. It almost comes across in the simplest
- [14:04]
A
forms as assassination investigators closed the entire block. A massive white tent was set up over Jill's entire house front to preserve evidence and provide privacy. And the investigation began. We do get an eyewitness, at least one eyewitness here. In fact, there's several. But I want to hone in on one in particular. And this is a neighbor of Jill Dando's. His name is Richard Hughes. And I'm going to go through two different reports and I'm doing this in fairness to the listeners because I, I cannot decide, Captain, which I feel is the better report. And they're varying to some very small degrees here. So one report straight from the newspaper says, after suffering a single gunshot wound to the head, detectives launched a murder inquiry, concentrating on tracking down a smartly dressed man carrying a mobile telephone who was spotted fleeing the blood stained scene in Fulham. Southwest London. Police were still searching a stretch of the River Thames in London near the Putney Bridge. This was a short distance from Jill's home. Residents huddled in a small group at either end of the quiet, leafy street, which was cornered off by police. And this is neighbor Richard hughes. He's aged 32. He told police, he described to police hearing a scream during the attack. He says, quote, I was upstairs in the house and I heard her car alarm go off briefly. It was the kind of time Jill usually arrived home on Mondays, Mr. Hughes said. Then between 30 and 40 seconds later, I heard her scream. It was a very distinctive scream. I opened the shutters and I saw a man. He was very well dressed. He was wearing a barber style jacket. And at first I thought it must have been a friend of Jill's. I went to the door and I saw her lying on the doorstep. She was completely unconscious and covered in blood. Describing the man's demeanor, Mr. Hughes said, he walked very calmly away from the scene at that time. And I didn't really think anything of it. He was walking briskly, he had dark hair and he was white and he didn't look at all flustered. Now from the other report, and you'll hear similarities here, Captain states police heavily canvassed the neighborhood for witnesses and witnesses also approached the investigators. Since everyone knew about the crime, no one seemed to have heard the gunshot. But one man heard something else. Richard Hughes, who lived next door to Jill, was at home that morning. He heard a scream that clearly came from a woman, but he chalked it up to someone screaming with surprise or delight. He later said that he had heard the scream. He looked out the shutters of his bedroom window. All he saw was a man Moving briskly toward Fulham Palace Road. He could see only the side of the man's face. But just 14 minutes later, Richard heard a woman loudly exclaiming outside his home. This was Helen, the other neighbor that we talked about that was walking down the street.
- [17:40]
B
Right.
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A
So Helen, having found Jill, calling emergency services. Richard told the BBC, quote, I went to the door and I saw her lying on the doorstep. She was unconscious and covered in blood. I was obviously shocked. I took a look at her and she wasn't breathing. Now, Hughes, just like in the first report, didn't put together until later that the man he had seen might have been Jill's killer. He hadn't seen him interact with Jill or anything like that. Right. He doesn't see the man talking with Jill. All he sees is this man moving swiftly away from the scene. Around the time that he hears the scream. Richard provided a description of the man that he saw and he says that the, the official description of this man issued by the police to the public was a Caucasian male, 5 foot 9 inches to 6 foot tall, short dark hair, clean shaven, smartly dressed in a dark suit or jacket and trousers and an overcoat. Richard told the BBC, quote, he was well dressed. He was wearing a barber style jacket. And at first I thought it must have been a friend of Jill's as he looked very respectable. So people in the neighborhood and neighbors obviously know Jill. Everybody's going to know Jill. She's on tv. But she's also a friendly individual who's engaging in conversation regularly when she's around with her neighbors.
- [19:13]
B
Right.
- [19:14]
A
And we get this sighting, we have the two witnesses, Helen, who stumbles upon Jill. She's hoping to chat with her friend, but sees her lying on the stoop after she's been shot. And then we have Richard Hughes, who has kind of two different sightings, right? Two different situations, all in a very short period of time. He sees this man leaving after he heard some kind of scream. And then he later sees Jill on her stoop and says she's covered in blood and she's unconscious.
- [19:50]
B
Again, the, the demeanor of this suspect, the dress of the suspect, doesn't make a lot of sense. With a random act, it doesn't.
- [20:01]
A
And the thing that we need to kind of hone in on here, as important as this eyewitness account may be, technically, there's no proof that the man that was spotted was the one that shot Jill.
- [20:14]
B
Right.
- [20:15]
A
You know, he could have been a businessman walking on the block. He could have heard the scream himself. He could have not heard the scream himself.
- [20:22]
B
But we don't have anybody coming forward to law enforcement saying, hey, I was the smartly dressed man.
- [20:27]
A
Exactly, exactly. And that's what makes you go, okay, well, maybe this guy is involved. It would seem to make sense and it would be very understandable that he's not going to come forward and place himself there if he were to be involved. I like the English here, Captain. I think I'm going to start using the phrase smartly dressed man as well. Yeah, every girl's crazy for a smartly dressed man. Neighbor Jeffrey up Phil Brown says that he also saw this dark haired white man in the nice jacket walking briskly or running from the area. He said the man slowed down to a normal pace when. And he believes this is because the man noticed him seeing him. Right. I'm looking at this guy, he's moving pretty fast from the scene. He sees me looking at him and he kind of calms down and starts moving at a normal pace.
- [21:23]
B
Right.
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A
I like having this Jeffrey up Phil Brown account and it being similar to Richard Hughes's account. And the reason why I didn't mean to drag it out any longer than necessary, but I went through the two different reports of Hughes's account because I had a lot of questions with it. I, I don't like when people are giving a statement to police and they're like, I saw her from this distance up in my window and she was unconscious and she was not breathing. You're. You're making assumptions that are making it into the report.
- [22:01]
B
Right.
- [22:02]
A
Which makes me wonder and question, does this person know more or did he have a different vantage point than the window from his place? And so we get this other account that is backing up and kind of confirming Richard Hughes's account of this man fleeing the scene, the smartly dressed man. The other thing here too, Captain, we get this blue Range Rover. Okay, so there's this, a blue Range Rover that's cited, spotted by a few people. This would receive quite a bit of attention from police and from the public. Apparently one was caught on CCTV speeding from the area around the time of the incident. The documentary who Killed Jill Dando on Netflix reported that the blue Range Rover was parked on Gowen Avenue that morning at 10:15 and a traffic cop approached the vehicle to give it a ticket. The traffic cop, she backs off when the driver kind of waves her away. But of course, with the later events of Jill Dando being shot and killed nearby, that's going to trigger the traffic cop's memory. Right. And go this Might be something here, this blue Range Rover, right? And again, this could be very important because right after the time of the shooting, or approximately shortly after the time of the shooting, a blue Range Rover was captured on that CCTV heading over the Putney Bridge, away from Jill's house at a high speed, running several red lights and vanishing again.
- [23:40]
B
Smartly dressed man, Range Rover. I mean, Range Rovers aren't cheap if you're law enforcement. To me, it's like, did this individual know her? Is this a personal attack? We need to look at her inner circle.
- [23:56]
A
Of course. Track down this individual, find out if he's a witness, potential witness or a suspect. So four days after the murder, this is going to take us to April 30th. Inspector Campbell released the CCTV footage showing a metallic blue Range Rover speeding south on Fulham Palace Road. Police tried their very best to run down all of the blue Range Rovers registered in London and the surrounding areas. But that was like. Almost like trying to find yellow cabs in New York City.
- [24:32]
B
It's.
- [24:33]
A
It's a more common vehicle there than here. And in fact, I tell you what, in the last two years, I'm seeing Range Rovers all over the place. Police followed this lead for months. And Hamish Campbell, the inspector, has said he thinks there was something to that lead, but the driver was never found. And you are hitting on something here that I think is very interesting and very important to the case here. Captain. You have to wonder, is this a peer of Jill's? Right. Maybe not somebody that she knew, maybe not somebody that she interacted with that day or ever. But the description of the clothing, the description of the vehicle, I got to believe it's a similar description that would be given of persons that live in the area that would be traveling through this neighborhood. So was this one of Jill's peers? Or you have to wonder, was this an attempt by the killer to blend in to his surroundings?
- [25:51]
B
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- [27:25]
A
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- [30:30]
B
So I thought it would be fun
- [30:31]
A
if we made $15 bills, but it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 months, $90 for 6 months or $180 for 12 month plan required. $15 per month equivalent to taxes and fees. Extra initial plan term only greater than 50gb.
- [30:50]
B
Me slow when network is busy see terms. All right, we are back. Cheers, mates. Cheers to you, Colonel.
- [31:13]
A
Cheers to you, Captain.
- [31:16]
B
To the windows. To the walls.
- [31:17]
A
There was another lead, and this one is known as the sweaty man lead. More than one witness reported seeing a sweating man running to Fulham Palace Road to the bus stop there. Right, so this is a very short distance from Jill's house. For some reason, it doesn't seem that police thought that this was just a commuter who was stressed out about maybe running late for the bus. They seem to think that it was possible that maybe more than one person could be involved in the murder of Jill Dando. Here's a scenario for you.
- [31:59]
B
Okay?
- [31:59]
A
Perhaps there could have been two people who came to Fulham in the Range Rover, but the shooter or the accomplice didn't quite make it back to the vehicle before the parking patrol officer scared off the vehicle and driver.
- [32:20]
B
That makes some sense.
- [32:21]
A
That's a scenario for you, right? Because it would make sense that then that person would would flee the area and maybe even flee to the nearest bus stop. Because we know that according to the traffic officer, the Range Rover peeled out and maybe the actual shooter, the person who gets out of the Range Rover to go up and do the deed is stuck with no choice but to take the bus.
- [32:46]
B
Well, it seems strange to me if you are tracking her, why wouldn't you just wait for her to get inside
- [32:55]
A
her house, push her inside, push her
- [32:58]
B
inside, commit the crime. You could leave through the back or you could leave through the front, but then again, it'll take time because the body is not just Laying on the front porch.
- [33:13]
A
Yeah. And this is from the way that it's described and from the pictures that I've seen. Captain, this is while it's a very public area, neighborhood people walking down the street, people driving up and down the street, the front porch. I wouldn't. The stoop there, I wouldn't say that it was on display for all to see.
- [33:36]
B
Okay.
- [33:37]
A
Right. It's sort of tucked away. I wouldn't say that it's concealed. I wouldn't say that it would be hard to spot Jill on the stoop. But I also want to point out that in my opinion, I don't think it would be blatantly obvious.
- [33:51]
B
Right.
- [33:51]
A
I think that there's a chance that if no gunshot goes off, if there's no scream, that maybe somebody could walk down that street and not notice her on the stoop. We know that her friend and neighbor, Helen, spots Jill there. But remember, she got excited at seeing the BMW, Jill's BMW, parked out front of her flat and going, oh, Jill must be here. So she's kind of looking for her. When she spots her. And keep in mind, the neighbor sees her because he's upstairs. He's looking at. Looking down, which would make it easier for him to see Jill. Now, what we do know, though, Captain, is that police did put a lot of stock into the sweaty man lead. So some witnesses they found, said that they had seen the sweaty man standing at the number 74 bus stop. So they tried to access the bus company surveillance footage, but it had already been erased. But they learned from witnesses that the sweaty man had gotten on the bus, talked on a mobile phone, and disembarked at Putney Bridge. This is where the Range Rover had gone as well.
- [35:07]
B
So they could be connected.
- [35:09]
A
They could be connected. Man, sweaty man, flees on foot toward the Putney Bridge, towards the bus stop there. And we also have the Range Rover, who is speeding out of the area to the point of running several red lights, last seen going over that Putney Bridge.
- [35:29]
B
So just to be clear, we have surveillance footage from the bus, but we don't have it because it took them too long to connect the dots. And so by the time they get to where they could get the surveillance footage, it's gone. Right.
- [35:46]
A
By the time they were asking for it, it had been erased. And likely they had erased it to record the next day's activities or two days later's activities.
- [35:55]
B
Yeah.
- [35:55]
A
So it would have just been a couple of days that they would have figured out this is a great lead. And where does it Take us. The breadcrumb trail takes us to the bus. Let's get surveillance footage. Shit, it's too late. It's been erased.
- [36:08]
B
Well, and here's some questions, right? So is this blue Range Rover connected to the sweaty man? Okay, do we. Do we figure out who the guy driving the Range Rover is? And do we figure out who the sweaty man is?
- [36:24]
A
Well, in what is not clear from several of these statements, is the smartly dressed man the same as the driver of the Range Rover. So in reality, to me here, Captain, what I see is three really good leads. The sweaty man, the smartly dressed man, and the Range Rover. Now, are they all connected? They could be. Or are they all independent of one another and two of them are bad leads and one of them is a great lead that remains yet to be seen. Right, so let's go to this information. This, this is great information here again. And you'll see how important these three leads really are based on witness descriptions. So four days after the murder, we're still on April 30th here. Keep in mind, this is the same date that the police choose to release the Range Rover footage to the public. On that same day, Captain, they also released a computer generated image of the sweaty man saying and telling the public he is a prime suspect and could have had an accomplice. So that kind of paints a picture for us of what the police believe at the time. Four days after the murder. Here's a generated computer generated image of our suspect. He could have had an accomplice. Oh, and we're releasing footage of a blue Range Rover and our witnesses are telling us that the sweaty man was not in the blue Range Rover. So that tells me that police at least thought at that time that if this sweaty man was the prime suspect like they said, and he had an accomplice, that accomplice was likely all tied up and connected to that blue Range Rover. People rightfully assume that the police would only issue this image if the guy was an actual suspect and they're calling him prime suspect. So this can be good and bad for your investigation. You're asking, begging the public for help, for information about this person, this computer generated image that you have.
- [38:39]
B
Right.
- [38:40]
A
But at the same time, it could potentially quash other leads that might be useful in the case. What we end up with, Captain, is eventually a man calls in and he identifies himself as the sweaty man at the bus stop. His name is James Shackleton. He admitted that he looked just like the sketch that had been released. Shackleton was an odd Duck. He drove around in an old ambulance and worked as an undertaker. He told police that on the day of the murder he was in the park collecting wood to make coffins. He was, quote, this is his words, chased out of the park by a man. So he tells police, after he's chased out of the park by a man, he went to the bus stop.
- [39:36]
B
Do we have a reason why he was chased out of the park there?
- [39:39]
A
I'm sure there's probably some further detail here that just haven't. Has not reached our eyeballs.
- [39:44]
B
Right.
- [39:45]
A
Police arrested James Shackleton so they could question him and so they could search his house. Inside of his home they found a coffin and some photos of the Fulham neighborhood. Police interrogated Shackleton and accused him of being obsessed with Jill, but he denied that. He said he's not obsessed with her. In fact, he says that he is homosexual. Police decided that it was likely indeed Shackleton in the sketch of the sweaty man and they referred to him as a, quote, nutter. And the time they wasted on him set back the real investigation. Hamish Campbell, the inspector, later said that releasing the sketch of someone who might not have been involved in the crime, he considered that to be a mistake. Then there was this report by the Guardian newspaper that said, detectives revealed today this is. We're going to go back in time to April 27th. This is the day after the murder. Detectives revealed today that the killer of Crime Watch presenter Jill Dando probably staked out her home in West London for at least an hour before shooting her in the head at very close range with a 9 millimeter semi automatic gun. They detailed several sightings of a prime suspect. Remember, we're back to the smartly dressed man carrying a mobile phone who may have donned heavy black frame spectacles in an attempt to disguise himself. A window cleaner was the one who had seen a man watching Jill's house. Now we're back to the same questions that we've been circling around before, right? Was the man he saw the same as the Range Rover driver? Where had witnesses seen this guy standing? Was he walking up and down the street or just standing in a particular spot? So they're releasing information, but only little bits of it, which is just going to leave the rest of us with more questions and answers.
- [41:51]
B
So in this investigation, we're trying to track down these possible suspects, but police are going to be learning about some of the evidence at the scene and they're going to dive into the evidence of the gun.
- [42:03]
A
That's exactly right, Captain. Police immediately started to analyze the two pieces of solid physical evidence that they had. We got the 9 millimeter semiautomatic brass shell casing that was found at the scene and unfortunately we have the bullet as well. Under a microscope, ballistics experts noted that the casing bore six indentations or crimps intended to hold it in the cartridge case. These crimps were irregular and inconsistent. So this is indicating to police, or at least it's their expert opinion, that these crimps indentations were done by hand. They concluded that the crimps were intended to keep the bullet in the casing and someone had rigged up the whole thing. Picture John Malkovich in that, that assassination movie, making his own gun and ammunition at home.
- [43:05]
B
Right.
- [43:05]
A
There's somebody here that's putting this thing together and really kind of creating something here. So it's going to be one of a kind is what I'm getting at. Again, police opinion that this was something that was done by hand. So as for the bullet, there were no evident rifling marks. This led to the conclusion that the gun that shot Jill was possibly. We got it. We got to. I want to underline that possibly an altered starting pistol or a low muzzle velocity weapon, not what one typically sees in execution style shootings. This seemed like more of a weapon that someone happened to have on hand that they made do with. Now, we do need to point out, and we need to keep in mind as we go through this case here, Captain, that guns are much harder to obtain in the UK than they are here in the US Absolutely. From the Guardian quote, gun experts say the casing could have been tampered with, possibly to reduce the amount of powder to deaden the sound of the gunshot, indicating someone with knowledge of firearms. If in fact that's the reason why somebody tampered with the casing, if they knew that that could potentially dampen or deaden the. Sorry, the sound of the gunshot. That's somebody with a good amount of knowledge of firearms. That's not your average bear.
- [44:42]
B
Right.
- [44:42]
A
Just to break down UK gun control a little bit here. For persons that are not familiar in the United Kingdom, access by the general public to firearms is subject to some of the strictest control measures in the world. Subject to licensing. Members of the public may own rifles and shotguns. However, most handguns have been banned in Great Britain since the Dunblane school massacre in 1996. That was in Scotland. Keep in mind though here, Captain, the dates that we've just discussed. So we've discussed 1999 and this strict gun Control doesn't seem to come into effect after this massacre in 1996. I didn't have time to go through all of the fine print that's probably involved here. You have to wonder, were some people grandfathered in? Did people have firearms from before this? These strict control measures went into place.
- [45:48]
B
Right.
- [45:50]
A
It's only a short period of time between the two events. There were a couple of other indications that the shooter perhaps was not a professional, not a hired hitman or trained assassin. For one thing, he left the bullet casing there for the police to find. That's something that somebody who does this would know, that you probably shouldn't do, given the opportunity, collect the bullet casing before you flee the scene. And for another, they knew from the muzzle mark on Jill's head and the bruising on her forearm that someone had grabbed her and then forced her toward the ground and then shot her while she was crouched down.
- [46:31]
B
Right.
- [46:32]
A
So this was close range, close contact. It was not a sniper from across the street. It wasn't somebody that's just lying in wait, hiding in a corner or behind the bush. And she walks up and. And here she shoots her from 2, 3, 4, 5ft away. This was somebody that came up to her, grabbed her, forced her to the ground for some reason, and then while she is near the ground, she's kind of crouching down, that is when the gun was put close to her and then she is shot. So whether this was intended or not, and just the way that it happened to play out, you have to wonder. But even if it's just in the moment here, Captain, this was somebody who wanted to be very close to Jill when she was killed.
- [47:24]
B
Well, just because there were some mistakes made doesn't mean it wasn't a professional.
- [47:31]
A
Exactly. That's exactly right. Until we know, we don't know. Now, there was a terrific piece on the timeline of Jill's last day. This was found in the Independent. Many of Jill's movements that day, the day in question, were captured on cctv. The rest of the timeline was compiled from witness statements. So we're going to get a pretty detailed timeline for Jill of that day.
- [48:01]
B
And like we said before, Jill was engaged. So she woke up at her fiance's house the morning of the murder.
- [48:08]
A
And the reports that we've reviewed, it sounds like she was there most of the time. She's practically just living at Allen's place. So she wakes up at about 6:45 that morning. This is while Alan, her fiance, is preparing to go to work. So he is in the shower. And according to the information he gives to police, he says Jill made me a cup of tea and got a bowl of cereal to go for me and then she goes back to bed. So he takes the shower, he's going to drink the tea, eat the cereal and then he's going to run off to work. She sets him up with a with breakfast while he's getting ready. Nice woman trying to help him start his day off. Nice. Alan leaves for work. So he works at the Queen Mary's Hospital in Paddington West London. He's a consultant there and he left for work according to Allen at 7:25am Again, this is Monday 20. This is Monday April 26, 1999, that the previous weekend she had spent the entire weekend with Allen. This is after having been away for several days while filming in Dublin. Dressed in a beige raincoat, red button up jacket, black trousers and boots, Jill Dando leaves Allen's house in Bedford close Chiswick, West London. This is shortly after 10:30am and she's traveling in her convertible blue BMW. Her intent is to do some everyday chores. So the first stop was the BP garage on the Great Western Road to buy petrol and milk. She then drove the short distance to the King's Mall shopping center in Hammersmith. She bought some fax paper at Ryman's and then went to Dixon's in search of an ink printer cartridge. She failed to purchase the correct one before going into a nearby store. The link. She then returned to her car and drove off. This is at 1104am so this is great detailed information. That's timestamped from CCTV.
- [50:32]
B
Right.
- [50:33]
A
Minutes later a passerby. This is Sarah Posse recognized Ms. Dando as she sat in her car in traffic at Fulham Palace Road. Jill Dando sees this woman looking at her, she smiles back at her and Sarah distinctively remembers this because she's excited about seeing the celebrity who smiles back at her. And in fact she picks up her mobile phone and calls a friend right away to say, hey, I just saw Jill Dando in traffic and she saw me and she smiled at me. Around 11:20am, Jill went to the Cope's Fishmongers on Fulham Road where the assistant remembered that she was in a happy mood but seemed to be in a bit of a rush and remarked that her car was parked right around the corner. So Jill goes there to pick up two Dover soul for supper. While there she received a call on her cell phone from Prince Edward Theater. This is confirming that Jill had tickets for the West End show Mamma Mia. She appeared excited and bubbly and took and told the booking clerk the tickets were a present for her fiance, Allen. To avoid a bottleneck in traffic at the Fulham Palace Road, she took a back route to get to her home on Gowen Avenue. Ms. Dando had then planned to head back to her house, drop off the fish before going to a charity lunch at 12:30pm with her friend. So this is all very tight timeframes here, short windows of time with a detailed.
- [52:20]
B
Or with such a detailed time of events. You think this would help law enforcement?
- [52:27]
A
Yes, I absolutely do think, and I do think that it did help. Right, it should help, and I do think that it did help. But the problem here with this case, to me, is a full. We're lacking a full understanding of the motive here, in my opinion.
- [52:44]
B
Right.
- [52:45]
A
Which I think would also, or could at least dictate how one chooses to carry out this, if this was in fact planned from. From start to finish and went down as planned or close to that plan. So, by now, in our timeline, Captain, we have her arriving in her BMW just outside of her home. She walked to the front door of her house. This is about 11:30am on that Monday. And again, please note, Jill parked on the street right outside of her house. Now, how do we know this? That's where it gets a little murky, because it's unclear whether there was actually CCTV footage, surveillance footage, street footage of her on her block.
- [53:34]
B
Right.
- [53:35]
A
In fact, we've never heard police mention it. It's a very safe, exclusive residential neighborhood. So my guess here is that there was no need for cameras on every single street. But we do know that they followed her movements, or at least most of her movements that morning, on different CCTVs that were spread out through the area. But what happened here, according to the Guardian, quote, as Dando was about to put her keys in the lock to open the front door of her home, she was grabbed from behind. And we have Britain's leading pathologist who says that he can confirm this because there was a bruise, she was recently bruised on her right forearm shortly before her death. If she was grabbed from behind, what the police are telling us is they believe she approaches the door, she's going to put her key in the door, she's parked right in front of her house, so likely she's going to open up the door, maybe even return to the vehicle that's nearby, grab some things and head inside. There is a gate that is between her and her vehicle at this point.
- [54:50]
B
Right.
- [54:50]
A
The gate that leads to her house. The police experts are telling us the assailant came up from behind her and grabbed and bruised her right forearm. So they're saying with his. The assailant, with his right arm, grabs her right arm, forcing her toward the ground and. And then with his left hand holding the gun, shoots Jill Dando. She's so close to the ground, they believe at this point that her face was almost touching the tiled step of the porch. This was a single shot at her left temple, which would have killed her instantly. The bullet entered her head just above her ear, parallel to the ground, and then came out the right side of her head and into the door, leaving a mark that was a mere 22cm above the doorstep. It was very close to 11.30am so, as everyone just heard, Jill didn't stay at her own place the night before her murder. One thing that's important to understand is that Jill wasn't really living at her expensive Go in Avenue Townhome at all. She had pretty much moved in with her fiance, right? Her house was in fact for sale at the time. And she rarely stayed at her house, her own house, overnight, and really just stopped in at random times, they say, to grab clothing, mail and personal items. The CCTV footage, Captain here is so important because we get a detective who will go on record saying, quote, my conclusion is that the victim was not being followed at any stage in any of the footage, saying, we tracked Jill's movements on CCTV and talked to everyone she talked to. No one saw anyone following her from shop to shop. So now we have to wonder if she's hardly ever there. And when she is there, it seems like she's there at random times. I will point out, though, the reason for reading again those two statements, the two reports about Richard Hughes's account of what he saw that day in one of those accounts were what was one of the details that wasn't in the second account? It was, I thought it could be Jill because that's the time that she's usually here on a Monday, right? So that's very different, right? We're told by all these other people that this is such a rare and random happenstance when she chooses to show up at her townhouse. Yet we have a neighbor who is saying, I thought it could be Jill because that's the time that she's usually here on a Monday. I don't take from that statement that Richard Hughes means every Monday, but I take it to mean that when he happens to see Jill on a Monday, it happens to be around this time.
- [57:37]
B
So, yeah, all that answers some questions, but then raises other ones. I mean, if she wasn't being followed with somebody lying away and waiting for her.
- [57:49]
A
It's weird, man, because a lot of this stuff, yes, the CCTV footage and talking to all of the persons engaged with her, saw her, interacted with her that day, is very helpful to our timeline. And as police, I gotta believe what the police are saying. They tell us, we've reviewed everything. What we see is that nobody was following her that day. Okay, well, that answers one question, but it also provides additional questions. Right, right. So does that mean that if somebody, if somebody wanted to target, if that's the key here, again, I think it goes to motive. Because if you can confirm 100% that Jill Dando was the target and the target wasn't just some random person in an upper class neighborhood or a well to do woman walking down the street, well then that means that if this person wasn't following her and killed her at a place that she rarely is or may only drop in from time to time, could this person have just been permanently watching her house or keeping an eye on her house?
- [59:03]
B
Right.
- [59:03]
A
Waiting for her to pop up and then do the deed? Then. And then the other, the other thing that you wonder about, right, we talk about that it may not have been a professional hitman because of the mistake of leaving the shell casing there at the scene. And maybe that's just, oh, I got spooked and I fled the scene and I messed up. People mess up. But to me, I feel, I feel that if we have a seasoned individual that's carrying this out, that they're collecting that shell casing because that's one of the very few pieces of evidence that they ended up having in this case.
- [59:41]
B
But then, but then it makes you wonder, did they leave it behind on purpose to throw you off some kind of trail?
- [59:49]
A
The other thing too, that I wonder about here, Captain, is the forcing her to the ground before shooting her. Because I think that one could argue that this is suggestive of two very different things. One could argue and have a sound argument for that shows that this is more of a personal crime. But I think somebody else could argue that maybe a hitman or somebody that's trying to, thinks that it would be better to force her toward the ground to conceal the crime. To give me an extra few seconds to blend back in.
- [60:26]
B
Right?
- [60:26]
A
Because as we said, we know that they're. We went through a brief description of the scene. This investigation was huge. This investigation, in this case, in The Jill Dando homicide case was massive. According to the Independent UK it was the Metro Police's largest murder investigation and quote the largest criminal investigation since the hunt for Jack the Ripper, end quote. Detective Chief Inspector Hamish Campbell led this investigation which reviewed 2400 statements from witnesses and interviewees. This would later grow to over 4000. Over the years they looked into 2000 plus named potential suspects, tracked down 1200 vehicles and reviewed thousands of hours of CCTV footage. Tips and leads were called in from all over the world. The price tag at the six month mark of this investigation was a whopping £1,000,247.
- [61:42]
B
Wow.
- [61:43]
A
As we know from Delphi, a massive scale investigation can sometimes be too big,
- [61:51]
B
too many cooks in the kitchen.
- [61:53]
A
Well and you have to wonder maybe did police lose sight of the forest for the trees?
- [62:16]
B
Want to thank everybody for joining us here in the garage today.
- [62:18]
A
Until tomorrow, be good, be kind and don't let it.
- [62:37]
B
Sa.