Mastermind: To Think Like A Killer (from Patreon)

Summary

True Crime Obsessed - Episode 408: Mastermind: To Think Like A Killer

Release Date: December 24, 2024

In Episode 408 of True Crime Obsessed, titled "Mastermind: To Think Like A Killer," hosts Patrick Hines and Julia Betavali delve into the untold story of Dr. Ann Burgess, a pioneering figure in the FBI's criminal profiling unit. This episode, part of their exclusive Patreon coverage, explores Dr. Burgess's groundbreaking work in understanding the minds of some of the world's most notorious killers, blending true crime insights with the podcast's signature humor and heart.

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Introduction to Dr. Ann Burgess and Her Legacy

The episode opens with Patrick Hines expressing excitement about covering Dr. Ann Burgess's story, emphasizing it as a quintessential "Let the Women Do the Work" narrative. Dr. Burgess's multifaceted career is highlighted—balancing her role as a nurse, advocate for sexual assault survivors, and a mother of four, all while making significant contributions to criminal profiling.

Patrick Hines [00:07]: "Dr. Ann Burgess, who helped pioneer the FBI's criminal profiling unit... she did all this while still maintaining her work as a nurse and advocate for survivors of sexual assault and while also prioritizing her family."

The Rise of Serial Killers and the Need for Profiling

Julia Betavali sets the stage by discussing the surge of serial killers in the 70s, 80s, and 90s, mentioning infamous names like Ted Bundy and the Menendez brothers. The lack of effective tools to catch these criminals underscored the necessity of Dr. Burgess's work.

John Douglas [03:26]: "There was this aura. Women need to be protected. And here it was, Anne Burgess, full speed ahead."

Dr. Ann Burgess's Entrance into the FBI

In 1978, while serving as a nursing professor at Boston College, Dr. Burgess receives an unexpected call from the FBI. Initially fearing tax fraud allegations, she is instead invited to contribute her expertise on her book, "Rape Victims of Crisis." This pivotal moment marks her entry into the male-dominated FBI environment.

Dr. Ann Burgess [05:15]: "Yes."

Collaborating with John Douglas and Rob Ressler

Dr. Burgess partners with FBI agents John Douglas and Rob Ressler, both key figures in the Behavioral Science Unit (BSU). Their collaboration aims to bridge the gap between understanding victims and profiling offenders. The trio faces challenges, including resistance from a predominantly male unit skeptical of their unconventional methods.

Rob Ressler [03:15]: "At the time, she was the only woman at the FBI."

Developing the Profiling Questionnaire

One of Dr. Burgess's significant contributions is the creation of a 57-page questionnaire tailored to extract consistent and actionable information from serial killers. This tool standardizes interviews, allowing for the identification of patterns crucial for profiling.

John Douglas [29:09]: "We put together this 57 page questionnaire, color coded it, which made it easier for the agents, and we started collecting the data."

The Ski Mask Rapist Case: A Case Study

The episode delves into the Ski Mask Rapist case, a chilling series of assaults spanning nine states. Dr. Burgess's analysis identifies a pattern of escalating violence, drawing parallels to previous serial offenders like Monty Russell. This pattern recognition is pivotal in predicting the Rapist's next moves and potential for murder.

John Douglas [34:12]: "It stops being exciting enough. That's when you can get the murder."

Impact and Breakthroughs

Through meticulous analysis and the application of her questionnaire, Dr. Burgess helps the FBI's BSU transition from chaotic data collection to a structured profiling methodology. Her ability to empathize and connect with both victims and offenders revolutionizes the unit's approach, leading to more effective investigations and arrests.

Dr. Ann Burgess [31:31]: "Ann was the branch of the operation. She saw the potential for using interviews with serial killers to be predictive of who a killer might be."

Personal Sacrifices and Professional Triumphs

Balancing her demanding role with family life, Dr. Burgess exemplifies dedication and resilience. The episode touches on her personal losses, including the tragic death of her uncle, which further fuels her commitment to preventing future crimes.

Dr. Ann Burgess [27:06]: "She's very devoted to try to figure out how to prevent this from happening in the future."

Conclusion: A Mastermind in Profiling

Episode 408 culminates with the successful application of Dr. Burgess's profiling techniques, leading to actionable insights that significantly aid in the apprehension of the Ski Mask Rapist. Her innovative approach underscores the importance of interdisciplinary collaboration in criminal investigations.

Julia Betavali [34:33]: "It's not just random. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's never enough."

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Notable Quotes

• Patrick Hines [00:07]: "It’s not wrong to laugh when you’re listening to a true-crime podcast... if almost crashing my car while listening to True Crime Obsessed is wrong, I don’t want to be right."

• Dr. Ann Burgess [05:15]: "Yes."

• John Douglas [29:09]: "We put together this 57 page questionnaire, color coded it, which made it easier for the agents, and we started collecting the data."

• Rob Ressler [03:15]: "At the time, she was the only woman at the FBI."

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Final Thoughts

"Mastermind: To Think Like A Killer" offers an in-depth look at the innovative techniques that transformed the FBI's approach to catching serial killers. Dr. Ann Burgess's legacy, as portrayed in this episode, highlights the critical role of empathy, structured methodology, and interdisciplinary collaboration in solving complex criminal cases. For listeners eager to explore more of Dr. Burgess's impact and the detailed workings of the BSU, all three episodes of the series are available exclusively on Patreon, along with over 450 bonus episodes.

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Join the Conversation

To support the podcast and gain access to exclusive content, visit @patreon.com/truecrimeobsessed or navigate through the podcast’s official website and click on the Patreon link. Happy listening, and thank you for being part of the True Crime Obsessed community!

Transcript

[Patrick Hines]

Hey, fam. Patrick here. We are so excited to be sharing Episode 1 of our Patreon coverage of Mastermind to Think Like a Killer. Gillian especially was so excited to cover this because this is a true Let the women do the work story. So the series tells the incredible and truly untold story of Dr. Ann Burgess, who helped pioneer the FBI's criminal profiling unit. Dr. Burgess focus was on understanding the minds of some of the world's most notorious killers in order to better help victims. Over the course of her career, she worked on some of the world's most high profile cases, including Ted Bundy, Ed Kemper, and sitting face to face with the Menendez brothers to try to understand why they killed their parents. And she did all this while still maintaining her work as a nurse and advocate for survivors of sexual assault and while also prioritizing her family, her husband and four kids. So that's what this series is about. It's an absolutely fascinating wild ride. All three episodes of Mastermind To Think Like a Killer are available right now and ad free over on Patreon, which is where you will also find over 450 full ad free bonus episodes and so much more like monthly virtual drag. Bingo. You can get all the information and join [e-mail] truecrimeobsessed or just go to our website and click on the Patreon link. All right, fam. Enjoy the episode.

[Julia Betavali]

Hey, everyone. Welcome to season two of Let the Women do the Work.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, don't tease them like that.

[Julia Betavali]

I'm not teasing them. We have three episodes about Dr. Ann Burgess.

[Patrick Hines]

What?

[Julia Betavali]

Teasing.

[Patrick Hines]

Hi, Julia Betavali.

[Julia Betavali]

I love Patrick Hines.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my goodness. We should do a second season of Let the Women do the Work.

[Julia Betavali]

I don't. I mean, let's do. Let's cover this first and then we'll see.

[Patrick Hines]

And we'll see. We'll see what happens.

[Julia Betavali]

I love Dr. Ann Burgess.

[Patrick Hines]

She's really incredible. What's other people we're doing?

[Julia Betavali]

Oh, yeah, it's called Mastermind to think like a killer. This is episode one. To listen to a killer.

[Patrick Hines]

How did you hear about the series?

[Julia Betavali]

It was suggested to me by Hulu and also all of our listeners in our Facebook group and in my dm.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, yay.

[Julia Betavali]

But I watched it immediately. When it came out, I was like, wait, what? So I'm really, really excited.

[Patrick Hines]

It's like one of those stories where you're like, we've heard every single story around this, but we've never heard her. Like, it's wild.

[Julia Betavali]

It's amaz. I mean, the series starts with the filmmaker comparing Dr. Burgess to Batman.

[Dr. Ann Burgess]

Yeah.

[Julia Betavali]

And Dr. Burgess is like, yeah, pretty much, yeah. Actually, now that you mention it, yes.

[Patrick Hines]

You have a cooler.

[Julia Betavali]

She's like Batman but cooler.

[Patrick Hines]

Something snapped in me. I picked up a rock and big size, softball size, and I hit her. Once you kill another human being, you'll never be the same person again. In the 70s, 80s, and 90s, we see this really steep rise in active serial killers. Zodiac killer, the Hillside Strangler, Son of Sam.

[Rob Ressler]

All signs are pointing to there will be more victims. Then came this outsider.

[John Douglas]

I was a professor of nursing at Boston College, working with patients with traumatic experiences. One day, I got a phone call from the FBI.

[Rob Ressler]

At the time, she was the only woman at the FBI.

[John Douglas]

There was this aura. Women need to be protected. And here it was, Anne Burgess, full speed ahead.

[Rob Ressler]

They would interview serial killers face to face.

[John Douglas]

People like Ted Bundy, Monte Russell, Ed Kemper. The problem was we had to make sense out of the interviews. I started listening to the tapes, and what I found was fascinating.

[Julia Betavali]

I began to act out on very violent and very destructive feelings and ideas.

[John Douglas]

I was finding patterns I'd never noticed before.

[Rob Ressler]

She was defeated, Developing a tool that could catch criminals and to save more lives.

[John Douglas]

For me, it was a huge breakthrough. When the word got out, the program started to really expand. We were just bed seats with cases. There was a kidnapping case. I had to catch him fast or we were going to physically lose the victim.

[Julia Betavali]

She learned the victim will actually help you solve the case.

[Rob Ressler]

That was a really unique skill set that nobody else in the FBI had.

[Julia Betavali]

I knew he was going to keep me upset and try to do something to us.

[John Douglas]

The fact that a lone female was representing herself with the FBI led authorities to call the FBI to say, somebody's down here impersonating an agent. Yeah. They weren't ready for it. It's so dangerous. These are people that are killing. She knew more than anybody in the room.

[Patrick Hines]

None of this happens without Dr. Burgess. Well, we open in 1981 quickly because we're hearing about the ski mask rapist, which is like this prolific rapist we haven't heard of before.

[Julia Betavali]

Yeah, they're like all these news reports in 81 about, like, the rise of these attacks.

[Dr. Ann Burgess]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

But the FBI has had no luck catching him.

[Julia Betavali]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

So that's kind of the setup for episode one.

[Julia Betavali]

Right. So then we go back to 1957. Dr. Ann Burgess graduated from high school, and she tells us, as a woman, she had three options.

[John Douglas]

To be a teacher, to be A secretary or to be a nurse. I said, well, I can be a nurse because I can ask everybody how they feel. That's what I'll learn. I'm always interested in how people feel, but in academe, in terms of nursing, nobody else cared about how they felt. They said, you should research physical illness only. That was the mindset at that time. You're not going to get anywhere with this. But if I wanted to do something, I was going to do it.

[Julia Betavali]

Because she's like, I can ask everyone how they feel. And, like, that's how I'll learn. And they're like, no, you dumb girl. Physical ailments only. Don't talk about mental health or don't get hysterical.

[Patrick Hines]

Right, you idiot.

[Julia Betavali]

And she's like, whatever. I'm doing it anyway.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, that's the whole thing is that, like, nurses are so empathetic. And, like, that's why she was called to do it. But then she was told, like, right, yeah, there's no room for feelings in nursing.

[Julia Betavali]

Are you gonna get hysterical again? You're hysterical again.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, God.

[Julia Betavali]

She said, absolutely not. I'm doing it anyway. And what happens is that she starts talking to her patients.

[Dr. Ann Burgess]

Yes.

[Julia Betavali]

About their traumatic experiences.

[John Douglas]

And she says, it is very hard for people to listen to what has happened to another human being. Makes them feel helpless. And they don't realize that listening is a very powerful strategy to help.

[Julia Betavali]

And that's where I'm like, oh, so I'm going to be crying a lot in this.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. I'll save it until we get there. But there's a lot that I really learned about this kind of trauma that was very eye openening.

[Julia Betavali]

Yeah. And you learn immediately. It's like, oh, she sees people.

[Dr. Ann Burgess]

Yes.

[Julia Betavali]

She listens and she sees you. And that is like, oh, my God, I have chills.

[Patrick Hines]

So it's 1978. She's a professor of nursing at Boston College. She's got four young kids. She says one of her research assistants tells her, you've got a call. It's the FBI. You should take it.

[Julia Betavali]

She immediately thinks she's going to prison for tax fraud.

[Patrick Hines]

I made the same note she does.

[Julia Betavali]

She's all of us.

[Patrick Hines]

Like everyone else. She assumes she's in big trouble for taxes.

[Julia Betavali]

She's like, wait, what the. Who for what? For me? Oh, my God.

[Patrick Hines]

No. But they actually want to invite her down to Quantico to talk about a book she wrote called Rape Victims of Crisis.

[Julia Betavali]

And now we get a montage of a bunch of stupid, insecure, incel. Awful Men talking about how rape doesn't exist and blaming the victim.

[Patrick Hines]

This was the thing that was so eye opening to me, was that, like, rape was not really taken seriously at this time.

[Julia Betavali]

Yes. Still waiting.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Julia Betavali]

When is it 50% of time women ask for it?

[Patrick Hines]

If I'm on top and you say, all right. Yeah, yeah. Then a couple of minutes later, oh, stop, stop. I'm going to stop.

[Julia Betavali]

If a woman wants to get even.

[Patrick Hines]

With her husband after an argument, just yell rape. I mean, but, like, the way these men are blatantly saying women are asking for it, it was very eye opening for me to see how unseriously rape was taken as a crime at this time.

[Julia Betavali]

Oh, my God.

[Dr. Ann Burgess]

Yeah.

[Julia Betavali]

Like, I mean, blatant. Yes, absolutely. So Dr. Burgess believes that every woman has a story, because she tells us about an experience that she had one day. She was getting home from a seminar, and she was just told to hitchhike home. She didn't have a ride. Just hitchhike.

[Patrick Hines]

Just. Just hitchhike.

[Julia Betavali]

So she did. And she was almost attacked by the driver.

[Dr. Ann Burgess]

Yeah.

[Julia Betavali]

Because she's like, oh, man, I knew I was in trouble. I was really scared. And she gets out of the car.

[Dr. Ann Burgess]

Yeah.

[Julia Betavali]

But she realizes, like, she takes that experience with her because she's like, okay. Every woman has some story of being terrified in the presence of a man.

[Dr. Ann Burgess]

Yes.

[Julia Betavali]

Which is 100% true.

[Patrick Hines]

Absolutely true.

[Julia Betavali]

Every woman and girl, I would venture to say.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And it's like, you know, the FBI wants to talk to her because suddenly the culture is starting to take rape a little bit more seriously as a. Yeah. And she's like the resident expert, because she's been talking to the rape survivor she's been dealing with as a nurse.

[Julia Betavali]

Because she says something interesting here.

[John Douglas]

She's like, when the FBI called, rape cases weren't being looked at. They were just being put in the shelf. The cases are going cold.

[Rob Ressler]

She was somebody who had this set of knowledge that nobody else had. She had spoken to those victims, and she could go and teach the men of the FBI everything that she had learned about rape and trauma and sexual assault.

[Julia Betavali]

Can we slow down on that for a second? Like, were you just collecting cases? Like, what are you doing with them? Because my. The way I'm approaching it is if there are enough cases that you know about them, maybe look into them. Well, because, like, maybe we're not all liars.

[Patrick Hines]

1. We'll see. That Dr. Ann does so brilliantly is she reframes the conversation. Because men are just thinking about rape. Theoretically. They're thinking about a rough sexual encounter. Right. And in their minds, they're saying, the woman wanted it, she asked for it in some way, or she's lying.

[Julia Betavali]

Well, because a lot of that comes from. Who's going to say that about me? What have I done?

[Patrick Hines]

No. 100%.

[Julia Betavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

It's when she starts showing them the bruised, battered, cut up horribly, like disfigured bodies of the women who've suffered rape that the men start to understand. But we're not there yet.

[Julia Betavali]

So Dr. Burgess is going to the FBI to teach all of the men. Yes, all of the men. She's the only woman to do this about rape and trauma and sexual assault. So she's like, there's a broken system here. I can fix it. Right. She's like, but where do you have to start? At the top. The FBI is the top. Like, they're asking me. They actually want to listen now. Like, let's go.

[Dr. Ann Burgess]

Yes.

[Julia Betavali]

So she goes down to Quantico, and she goes. Very much a culture shock.

[Dr. Ann Burgess]

Yeah.

[Julia Betavali]

Well, their gun.

[Patrick Hines]

They love their guns. The shooting Range opens at 6am I do well at Quantico. I don't think I. Yeah, I could go on one of those jogs. I think that would be fun. But other than that, I would not.

[Julia Betavali]

You're a jogger now. Can you let the people know you jog now?

[Patrick Hines]

I run a 5k every day.

[Julia Betavali]

You go outside now.

[Patrick Hines]

I do. Well, no, I do that at the gym. Jog outside.

[Julia Betavali]

But you get on a city bike and bike home. That's outside.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, I got to get to the office. You know what I mean? I got to get. I got to get back to.

[Julia Betavali]

You could walk. You're choosing to ride a bike.

[Patrick Hines]

That's true. I'm slightly athletic now, as I'm saying. Thank you. But I'm just like, you know, just.

[Julia Betavali]

In case you're like, oh, I haven't listened to the pates in a while. I'm going to start with Mastermind. And you're like, you're not kidding. You run now. You're a runner now.

[Patrick Hines]

I do run. Can you imagine me at Quantico trying to be an FBI agent? I don't think that would go great.

[Julia Betavali]

No, not at all. So the FBI at this time that she's there is kind of, like, legendary. They're like the cool. They're like the boys club. But then, like, the FBI was like the cool kids of the boys club. Yeah, Barf. But they were, you know, superheroes and badasses, and it's just like, oh, my. Like the guys at the FBI.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, and so she thinks she's going into a receptive audience. They want to hear what they. What she has to say. They want to learn.

[Julia Betavali]

They did ask her, after all.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, one person asked her.

[Julia Betavali]

Well, I mean. But of course, she's like, whoa, maybe the tide is kind of changing.

[Patrick Hines]

The first thing she does is give a talk about rape generally. And she says. She starts talking and there are snickers in the room. They're laughing at her.

[Julia Betavali]

They're laughing at her. Either they're laughing at her or they're super confrontational for two reasons. One, they don't like that a woman is teaching them anything.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly. Right.

[Julia Betavali]

And two, they don't like that she's telling them that they're wrong because they're wrong.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Julia Betavali]

So she's realizing in this dynamic, and this is why she's so incredible at what she does, but she's realizing she's listening to them.

[Dr. Ann Burgess]

Yeah.

[Julia Betavali]

So, like, she even listens to, like, the shitty people and how they communicate, because she's realizing they're not asking about the victims and the survivors. They don't give a shit about any of that. They're just, like, either laughing at her or confronting her. And she realizes they don't want to hear it. So she goes, fine, I'm going to show them.

[Patrick Hines]

And we see the photos that she uses. She's putting up these images of these women who have been brutalized as part of the rape. And this is the thing that breaks.

[Julia Betavali]

Through and showing them their faces, too. Like, the black eyes and the bruises and the broken bones, but also, like, she's a person and she's here and she's in front of you, and something happened to her.

[Patrick Hines]

I just keep thinking, like, these men need to be thinking, this could be my wife. This could be my daughter. This could be my sister.

[Julia Betavali]

Yeah, if that helps them, I get. Yes. But, like, it shouldn't have to, and you shouldn't have to see it to be like, whoa.

[Patrick Hines]

But, you know, this is one of the things about Anne that makes her so, like, she's just such a genius, because she knows how to get through to them because she understands that they're thinking about it. Theoretically, they're not thinking about the victim. As soon as they're not asking questions about the victim, she's like, oh, I need to acquaint them with the victims.

[Julia Betavali]

But that, like, that's why she's a fucking mastermind. So she's like, the tide is changing a little bit, but she's still considered an outsider. Cause one, she wasn't officially an agent. Two, she's a woman. Barf. Am I right? And so the group that like, accepted her in the FBI were the other outsiders. The behavioral science.

[Patrick Hines]

The behavioral science nerds.

[Julia Betavali]

So, but like, they are part of the academic branch of the FBI. They're a very, very small crew. They're doing their own thing. Some projects were approved, some weren't. They were literally banished to the basement. So, like, no one, they could do those unapproved projects.

[Dr. Ann Burgess]

No one.

[Patrick Hines]

Was no one paying attention.

[Julia Betavali]

Now we're going to learn about John Douglas and Rob Ressler. If you've been interested in true crime for five minutes, you know who these two are. You know, the show and book, mindhunter and whatever. These guys are everywhere. But they were sort of like this dynamic duo of like the outsider black sheep of the FBI unit.

[Rob Ressler]

Ressler was a steady hand at the bsu. He was calm, which was sort of a juxtaposition to Douglas. Douglas was the most polarizing figure within the bsu. Strong opinions and a lot of confidence. And there were certain people that. That definitely rubbed the wrong way.

[Julia Betavali]

I remember being at Quantico. We're in John Douglas office and he's got dresses hanging in the corner. And they call it J. Edgar Hoover's dress. Yeah, okay. And then the power goes out. He's like, I got a flashlight here somewhere. When he turns it on, it's under his chin.

[Patrick Hines]

John Douglas had one of J. Edgar Hoover's dresses in his office.

[Julia Betavali]

Oh, my God. Sounds like a hoot.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, J. Edgar Hoover was like a full on cross dresser.

[Julia Betavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, that's wild.

[Julia Betavali]

That is wild.

[Patrick Hines]

People don't really know that, but I.

[Julia Betavali]

Love that he, like, really.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, I think that's like the.

[Julia Betavali]

Main thing I know about J. Edgar.

[Patrick Hines]

Hoover, but like, John Douglas preserved one of his dresses. That's amazing.

[Julia Betavali]

I don't know how he got it. I don't know, but it was like, it was like hanging in his office. But, like, we think they're badasses because we're nerds.

[Patrick Hines]

They're just like the cool nerds.

[Julia Betavali]

But like, everyone else is like, shut up, idiots. Like, go like, oh, there's a girl here. Sent her down to the dummies in the basement. I mean, but that's really. That's actually what happened.

[Dr. Ann Burgess]

Yeah.

[Julia Betavali]

So Dr. Burgess is like, I want to work with Rob Wrestler Douglas.

[John Douglas]

You had to get on this good side, especially if you're going to work with Rustler. And I wanted to Work with Russell, because Russell was interested in a population that was studied at all. I was talking to victims and he was talking with the other half, if you will. I want to put the two halves together.

[Patrick Hines]

He's getting in the cell with Manson, with Ted Bundy, Kemper, Ed Kemper.

[Julia Betavali]

So she's like, oh, I want to put these two halves together. He's talking to them. I'm talking to the women. Like, we can do a lot of good work here.

[Dr. Ann Burgess]

Yeah.

[Julia Betavali]

There's also a montage of news reports about serial killers over the years. We get a quick Dennis Murphy sighting from Dateline. Hey, girl.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, do we? In like old school D. Murph, what's going on?

[Julia Betavali]

And then we learn about the 1970s serial killer explosion, which is like, this is not like a fun, zany thing. Can we not call it that?

[Patrick Hines]

I know, I know, but it really is wild.

[Julia Betavali]

And we've talked about this. It's like it was a weird pocket of time where, like, There wasn't the 24 hour news cycle. There wasn't DNA surveillance.

[Patrick Hines]

You know, like there, like cameras on the highway.

[Julia Betavali]

It's like, is it only an. Right. But like, is it only an explosion because we did have TV a little bit. Or has this been happening since the beginning of time?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, but I mean, like, are there that many active serial killers right now?

[Julia Betavali]

But now we've sort of over overcorrected because it's pretty hard to be a criminal these days.

[Patrick Hines]

It's true.

[Julia Betavali]

I mean, in comparison.

[Dr. Ann Burgess]

Yeah.

[Julia Betavali]

Now it's like crypto.

[Patrick Hines]

We put out like two episodes a week. You know, they're figuring out a way around it.

[Julia Betavali]

But are they all out there?

[Patrick Hines]

I know. I guess that's what I'm saying.

[Julia Betavali]

Like, we're arresting them now. We have body cam footage, but I'm saying, like, to call like, Zodiac unsolved.

[Dr. Ann Burgess]

Yeah.

[Julia Betavali]

Ted Bundy, Charles Manson, Ed Kemper. Like, these guys were getting away with shit.

[Dr. Ann Burgess]

Yeah.

[Julia Betavali]

For a while.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, like these people who were killing lots and lots of people.

[Julia Betavali]

It's just a different thing to think about it because it's like, oh, 70s, like, do we think it was an explosion because of, like, what was happening in society? Or we just hearing about it now because we don't have a 24 hour news cycle like we do today. But we had it more than the four channels we had in 1960.

[Dr. Ann Burgess]

Yeah.

[Julia Betavali]

So are we just hearing about it more?

[Patrick Hines]

And there's also more people? Because I'm thinking, like, we're like in the 1920s, like, was it Just Jack the Ripper or were there more?

[Julia Betavali]

You know, totally more.

[Patrick Hines]

And I don't know. I'm not saying Jack the ripper from the 1920s. I actually don't know when he's from. Is he from the 1800s?

[Julia Betavali]

He's from before the 1920s.

[Patrick Hines]

So not with the newsies.

[Julia Betavali]

No news is a perfect.

[Patrick Hines]

But, you know, it's interesting because, like, Wrestler and Dr. Anne are like their kindred spirits because, you know, for example, she wanted to understand rape and what had happened to these women, so she went to talk to them. Ressler wants to understand serial killers and what makes them tick and why they do the things that they do. So he goes to talk to them.

[Julia Betavali]

So, like, they're both talking to their. For lack of a better term, subjects directly, like. Because he's like, it's the only way. So first, Rob Ressler was going by himself, and then Ed Kemper very famously threatened to kill him.

[John Douglas]

He was finished. The interview was around 3:00, and he was getting ready, kind of nervous, looking at his watch. And Kemper turns to him and said, you know, the guard isn't coming back. They're on change of shift. He's not going to be here for 30 minutes. He says, in that time, you know, I could snap your head and leave it on the table. He said, I'd own the prison. Then I killed an FBI agent. Luckily, the guard came, and as they're leaving, Kemper turns to him and said, you know, I was just kidding. Didn't you now?

[Patrick Hines]

I didn't know this story.

[Julia Betavali]

Did you not watch my doctor?

[Patrick Hines]

I didn't. I thought it was boring. I couldn't get into it.

[Julia Betavali]

Okay, bye, everyone.

[Patrick Hines]

Dad.

[Julia Betavali]

Oh, my God.

[Patrick Hines]

I know. I'm sorry. I wasn't into Mind Hunter.

[Julia Betavali]

I think it is a slow burn that has that Fincher hue of, like.

[Patrick Hines]

Whenever I'm bored watching a show, I think of you saying, give me a slow burn. I know, I know. I need a fast burn, girl. All right, well, I gotta be in bed by 8:15.

[Julia Betavali]

Okay, let's not even.

[Patrick Hines]

I need a fast burn so you can run.

[Julia Betavali]

You're a runner now. Do you know that Mike ran 20 miles the other day and he's doing it again tomorrow?

[Patrick Hines]

He's a superhuman.

[Julia Betavali]

And that he's running 26.2 miles at the Mara.

[Patrick Hines]

I honestly would rather be in jail with Kemper.

[Julia Betavali]

Also, if you're running around the block, good for you. It's better than I could ever do it. I'm not comparing.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm just saying Anyway, well, the Kemper story is this. And I'm nine feet tall. He goes, I could snap your neck and leave it on the table. I'd own the prison then. Because I killed an FBI agent.

[Julia Betavali]

Yeah. So that changed the policy, even though Kemper was like, hearty har Heart. I'm just kidding, right?

[Patrick Hines]

That's a real good one.

[Julia Betavali]

Kemper, no jokes anymore. The FBI, a bunch of stuffed shirts.

[Patrick Hines]

Dick in the mud, sense of humor. Oh, my God.

[Julia Betavali]

Well, the policy immediately changed, so he wasn't allowed to go alone again, which. And that's how John Douglas became to join him, going to talk to these guys.

[Patrick Hines]

But we learn these conversations they're having with these convicted serial killers are unstructured. They don't really know what to ask.

[Elizabeth Burgess Dowdell]

It's important to understand that when Ressler and Douglas and others were going in and interviewing these offenders, they were doing so in a kind of unstructured way, conversing with them, asking them general details, taking whatever information they were willing to share.

[Rob Ressler]

They would interview serial killers face to face, and then they would just have a conversation about, what does this mean? What does that mean? They had no idea what they had.

[Julia Betavali]

And at first, like, you're kind of sitting here thinking, that's kind of the way to go, Right? Like, don't make it feel like a test. Kind of make it about them. Go. You know, stroke the ego, whatever you have to do. Like, there's part of me that's like, if we keep it casual, they're not going to think we're searching for information.

[Patrick Hines]

I think that makes sense, but I also think they want to give the information they want to. And so that's what Dr. Ann's job is to say, like, no, no, no, no. We got to organize this information. Because otherwise, we're just having a conversation with these guys. And is any of this useful?

[Julia Betavali]

And also because they take all their notes and then go home and look at the notes and be like, well, what the hell do we do with this?

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly.

[Julia Betavali]

So they should.

[Patrick Hines]

It's about taking it and organizing it and really trying to, like, pull out the data that can.

[Julia Betavali]

So they shared all this information with Dr. Burgess. Now she takes all the information from all of the survivors that she spoke to.

[Dr. Ann Burgess]

Yes.

[Julia Betavali]

Now she goes from listening to survivors to listening to these evil men, these rapists, abusers, serial killers.

[Patrick Hines]

And I just want to point out the reason that they're doing that is because they are looking at her research from the rape survivors, and they're saying, you found very useful information here. She was able to organize, like, her data from these interviews into, like, what translates into useful information.

[Julia Betavali]

Actually listening.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. And so they're saying, we want to give you our interviews and see if you can pull useful information out of that. She's good at this.

[Julia Betavali]

Yeah.

[John Douglas]

The tapes that they brought back, the cases were so horrific. We had Charles Manson since I was.

[Patrick Hines]

10 years old and used to lay.

[John Douglas]

Down, have to get my ass whipped.

[Patrick Hines]

Till I couldn't walk. Tell me about Champagne.

[John Douglas]

Monty Risso really quite forthcoming. I listened closely until each cassette stopped. I took notes and listened again. What I heard was, like, eavesdropping on the rawest fringes of humanity.

[Patrick Hines]

She says it was just horrific.

[Julia Betavali]

She was like. And it was. You know, they're describing their violence in detail and, like, you know, she's also spoken to the survivors. So I'm just imagine, like, what she's now putting together.

[Dr. Ann Burgess]

Yeah.

[Julia Betavali]

But she's realizing. She says, I realize how, quote, articulate and forthcoming they are.

[Dr. Ann Burgess]

Yes.

[Julia Betavali]

And she said what I heard was, like, eavesdropping on the raw fringes of humanity. Now she sees the potential here.

[Dr. Ann Burgess]

Yeah.

[Julia Betavali]

We're gonna get into how she does this, and it's so amazing. But first she's like, hey, everyone. I don't have all the time in the world to do this, by the way. Oh, I have a family. I have four young kids. She sees the potential in this work, but she also realizes the mountain it is to climb, because I'm sort of.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, how long were you at Quantico? Like, were you there for weeks? Were you there for a week? Like, how long were you there?

[Julia Betavali]

We'll get into, like, how she splits her time. It's wild, but at first she's like, oh, I want to do this amazing work. Like, this amazing, like, new chapter kind of fell into her lap. And she realized I could take all the work I' doing and all the work and combine it. And then she's like, oh, I have a family.

[Patrick Hines]

Can I ask you a question? I just feel like no man would ever think that. No man would think, like, I've got my family, and I've got my work that I want to do. And now I'm conflicted. I think the man is just going to do whatever is right in front of him.

[Julia Betavali]

I think a lot of men would probably think that it will just be all figured out. Oh, it's going to be bad. Oh, it'll be shitty, and I'll miss a lot, but I got to do this.

[Dr. Ann Burgess]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, I think. I think you're Absolutely right.

[Julia Betavali]

And I think it's the. In my experience, women who do the mental labor and the gymnastics of. Okay, well, if I'm here.

[Dr. Ann Burgess]

Yeah.

[Julia Betavali]

It's instant logistics of how. How am I going to make it all work. And I think, not to speak for everyone, but I think history would say that the men would just be like, it will get figured out. Not thinking. Who will the figuring out.

[Patrick Hines]

You're absolutely. 100%. And all I'll say is that my husband would agree with you.

[Julia Betavali]

You know, it'll get solved. Okay, great. Who's going to do it? I Wonder? But also, Dr. Burgess, his daughter is here.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julia Betavali]

So her name is Dr. Elizabeth Burgess. I think it's Dowdell. D O W D E L L. Yes. And she is just like. Let me tell you about how awesome my mom is. My mom is the most empathetic, compassionate person. She is perfect for this. I don't care how hard the job is. She is amazing. I looked up Dr. Burgess, his daughter, Dr. Elizabeth.

[Patrick Hines]

What does she do?

[Julia Betavali]

She's amazing. Dr. Burgess Dowdle, PhD, RN, AFN, dash C IV. She has all of these qualifications.

[Patrick Hines]

She's a nurse.

[Julia Betavali]

No, but. But also what she does is she's, quote, an expert in the use of social media by adolescents and the health risk risks posed by online behavior. Oh, a million other things. Look her up. She's at Villanova, but she, like, the apple does not fall far.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julia Betavali]

Yeah. She's also, like, when you. When we learn more about this family and these women in particular, like, this is. So the health risks posed by online behavior. I mean, is that the most 2024 thing?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, it's very real.

[Julia Betavali]

And I just love that she's like, we got to figure out what we need to do now for this new thing. Like, it's just so innovative to me. Like, the way her brain is looking forward. Anyway.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julia Betavali]

Badass. Ladies. Once again, she's incredible.

[Patrick Hines]

We also learned about Uncle Frank.

[Julia Betavali]

Uncle loved music. He played the piano and the organ.

[Patrick Hines]

He was a country doctor. I loved this guy.

[Julia Betavali]

He didn't need sheet music to play, which is so rad. I think also, if you can read sheet music, it's the coolest thing.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, I used to be able. I played the trombone for a little while.

[Julia Betavali]

Oh, great.

[Patrick Hines]

I was able to read the bass clef. Bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum. You know what? That isn't. You never get to play the lead in this. In the winter concert.

[Julia Betavali]

I understand.

[Patrick Hines]

You are. Bump, bump, bump, bump. Imagine the disappointment on these chubby little cheeks.

[Julia Betavali]

Yeah. Well, Mike, when he was in the show choir or whatever was. He was in. Oh, select choir. He was like the baritone. So he'd be like, jingle. But, like, he doesn't get to do the fun part either.

[Patrick Hines]

Jingle all the way.

[Julia Betavali]

So he knows they did. I think I've told this story, but they did that song Smooth by Santana and Rob Thomas. But his version was. Oh, it's a hot one. That was his whole. So he doesn't get to do the Rob Thomas like Marjorie. So that was his. So he can relate to the fact that he's not doing, like.

[Patrick Hines]

He riff walked Rob Thomas to the bathroom.

[Julia Betavali]

How to go for.

[Patrick Hines]

It was great. He was so nice. He was very, very small.

[Julia Betavali]

Okay. I want to ask Rob Thomas how it went from him.

[Patrick Hines]

Okay. That's a fair question.

[Julia Betavali]

You know what I mean? She got him on the phone walking to the bathroom. What is he, the president?

[Patrick Hines]

No, it was. I was bartending Lizzie Grubbin's birthday party. It was wild at my bar. Was Harrison Ford, Angelina Jolie, Mick Jagger and Rob Thomas. And Mick Jagger kept ordering shots of Jaeger for Jagger, which was how he was ordering them. Could we get another shot of Jaeger for Jagger?

[Julia Betavali]

Oh, my God.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Julia Betavali]

Do I love that? I might love it.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, he got Rob Thomas Hamm on Jaeger for Jagger. And so then I had to walk him to the bathroom because he couldn't.

[Julia Betavali]

Walk Jaeger for Jagger. Like, did he just learn that, or has he been saying, oh, no, that.

[Patrick Hines]

Was all his life?

[Julia Betavali]

You know what I mean? Like, which one is that? Is that a dad joke he just heard, or has he been saying that since 1974? But Uncle Frank is a musician and super cool, and he nurtured Dr. Burgess love of music.

[Dr. Ann Burgess]

Yes.

[Julia Betavali]

And they got, like, this great relationship. And so Uncle Frank had a driver.

[Patrick Hines]

We learned that the driver was addicted to drugs.

[John Douglas]

Uncle Frank had a driver, and the driver we didn't know was into drugs. And doctors have drugs. They got into a fight, and my uncle was killed. She had firsthand experience of what it's.

[Patrick Hines]

Like to lose somebody you love so dearly.

[John Douglas]

So for my mom, one outlet for.

[Julia Betavali]

Her is her work.

[John Douglas]

She's very devoted to try to figure out how to prevent this from happening in the future. So I decided this was important. I help with the study, but it.

[Patrick Hines]

Is one of those things where Dr. Ann also has experience with losing somebody to violent crime. So it's another way that she is sort of feels pulled into this work with the FBI. So, you know, she had the work with the rape survivors. Now she's working on the profiling, and she's interested in talking to these killers. And she also has a loved one who was murdered.

[Julia Betavali]

And she, like, knew the driver a little bit. Like, the driver wasn't a stranger, so it was kind of, you know, I.

[Patrick Hines]

Love that they say. So Dr. Burgess is that the study is important. She's gonna help, even if she wasn't completely sanctioned to be there.

[Julia Betavali]

I just love her so much.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, she's not an agent. She's just a guest lecturer. And when she takes it to wrestlers, she's like, okay, girl, I want to help, but, like, I'm not really supposed to be here. He's like, don't worry about it.

[Julia Betavali]

Fuck it.

[Patrick Hines]

We'll figure all that out.

[Julia Betavali]

We're in the basement. Nobody gives a shit. And also, she's smart. She's awesome. You need her help. I don't care that she's not an agent. What a stupid rule.

[Patrick Hines]

Couldn't agree more.

[Julia Betavali]

Like, ask for forgiveness, not permission.

[Patrick Hines]

The only crime that was committed here is that we are just learning her name. We've been covering these cases for eight years. We've never heard, like, give me a fucking break. I know.

[Julia Betavali]

So of course, Dr. Burgess comes in and the boys, their research is a mess.

[Dr. Ann Burgess]

Yes.

[Julia Betavali]

She's like, they needed help with their.

[Patrick Hines]

Methodology because the thing is, they've got these once in a lifetime interviews with these serial killers that they're really trying to learn things from, but they just don't know how to get, how to organize it, how to organize it, and how to ask questions in a way that elicits actual useful information.

[Julia Betavali]

So she comes in, she works with them to come up with this questionnaire.

[Patrick Hines]

Now, I.1 million percent have heard about this questionnaire. I've just never heard of her.

[Julia Betavali]

But here, what she says, though, this is the fucking genius of it. She's like, chitchat is great. Love that for you. The evil guys are opening up. Like, we. We have to get them to feel comfortable. Like, I super love that. But you also. We need to find a way to ask some of the same questions so we can find these common themes.

[Dr. Ann Burgess]

Yes.

[Julia Betavali]

So she was using those first recordings of, like, talking to Ed Kemper or whoever to give notes on the process. So she'll be like, okay, ask a question here, expand here. Oh, let him talk. When he says that, if he mentions this, then bring up this. So then she's coming up with questions based on when the killers opened up. So she's like, okay, we love that how did you get him to say that?

[Dr. Ann Burgess]

Yes.

[Julia Betavali]

Like, maybe we can come up with a good leading question that would make sense for all of this. Yeah, it is. It is the fudgeing coolest thing.

[John Douglas]

We put together this 57 page questionnaire, color coded it, which made it easier for the agents, and we started collecting the data.

[Rob Ressler]

Finally there would be uniformity of information that they were asking. And so the agents learned what was really happening in the field and they would take that information and they would bring it back to Ann, who would then make sense of it.

[Julia Betavali]

And it worked.

[Patrick Hines]

I said, and Steve Tipton is in heaven.

[Julia Betavali]

Oh my God.

[Patrick Hines]

But we've heard about this questionnaire forever. And I. We've never heard about the woman who.

[Julia Betavali]

Invented it, Dr. Ann Burgess.

[Patrick Hines]

Jesus.

[Julia Betavali]

So it works. So Douglas and Ressler will go talk to the evil guys. Then Dr. Burgess would listen to take notes and look for patterns and then like adjust that questionnaire being like, okay, this worked with this, or trying to find out, like, okay, so here's like the, you know, number whatever question, question. Who? Sort of like a Choose your own adventure, depending on what you're getting. But you really. The point is you have to listen.

[Dr. Ann Burgess]

Yes.

[Julia Betavali]

What are they telling you? What are they not telling you? What are they saying in their silences? What are they. What words did they choose? Like, you really have to hear these people in front of you, good, bad, or indifferent.

[Patrick Hines]

And this is where we get the point where the FBI, like, as much progress as we in 2024 can see that they're making in the early 80s. The FBI in the 80s, doesn't care about this. They care about forensics. Now. I understand this. They're looking at like forensic technology and like the actual like crime scene evidence, like, you know, blood and fingerprints and, you know, the burgeoning, like, world of DNA and all of that. And they are looking at like this profiling as like fuddy, duddy, heady academic shit that isn't gonna ever give them anything.

[Julia Betavali]

It's the Behavioral science unit, right? BSU, they're calling it the bullshit unit.

[Dr. Ann Burgess]

Yeah.

[Julia Betavali]

And Dr. Burgess goes, yeah, they weren't ready for it. I'm like, okay. Taylor clearing her throat before read, oh, my God. So she's like, the stakes are really, really high.

[Dr. Ann Burgess]

Yes.

[Julia Betavali]

And this is all being done in secret, by the way, because it's the stupid BS unit. As they think, all those nut pieces downstairs and the girls with them, like, who cares?

[Rob Ressler]

Because somebody says the agents of the BSU understood they were developing a tool that could shift the paradigm of how law enforcement was able to catch criminals.

[Elizabeth Burgess Dowdell]

Ann is a person who helped to develop the tools that assisted profilers.

[Rob Ressler]

Ann was the branch of the operation. She saw the potential for using interviews with serial killers to be predictive of who a killer might be. She thought, if you can recognize the patterns, you can do something to stop that pattern from continuing.

[Julia Betavali]

So her thing is, like, if you can recognize the pattern, you can do something to stop it from continuing. And for some reason, the FBI's like, yeah, I don't know about that. And she's like, yeah, but what if I told you none of it was accidental, like Q. Taylor, like, the dominoes cascaded in alignment. If I told you she's a mastermind, she's truly a mastermind. Oh, my God. Because she's seeing all the pieces. She really is seeing everything. Like, wait, and what can she use? Look, she's like, if I have to listen to this fucking Charles Manson for another second, can I get some good work out of it?

[Patrick Hines]

100% sake. And so now we're back to 1980, Baton Rouge, Louisiana. We're back to the ski mask rapist. He's on the loose. Everyone is terrified. And we learned, like, this is awful. He would break into the home, wait for the husband or boyfriend to come home, tie them up, and make them watch while he assaults the woman.

[Julia Betavali]

Now everyone is terrified of this case because they've never seen anything like this before. The cops don't know what to do. It's a mess all around.

[Patrick Hines]

He's everywhere. He's in nine states. Yeah, everywhere.

[Julia Betavali]

Yeah. So law enforcement reaches out to bsu, and I'm like, well, where's the bullshit now, fellas? Calling us up when you need us, huh? So they take this case and they compare it to their cases and their research.

[Dr. Ann Burgess]

Yes.

[Julia Betavali]

Because the ski mask rapist cases are advancing, and Dr. Amber just is like, this Sounds like Monte Russell to me.

[Dr. Ann Burgess]

Yeah.

[Julia Betavali]

And Monty Russell was a serial killer. He had a series of rapes before he started killing people, which is what.

[Patrick Hines]

Sets him apart from the other serial killers. But he also escalated as he continued with the rapes, which is what's happening with the ski mask killer.

[Julia Betavali]

Right. And so they're looking for this pattern because based on interviews with the killer, this Monty Russell guy, the killer, he explains that his first rape wasn't even planned, Right? So he says, look, I was there to rob the house. And the way, like, the honesty I like.

[Patrick Hines]

They just want to unburden themselves, brag about it and that for sure.

[Julia Betavali]

But he's like, look, he was there to rob the house. And this is so fucking disgusting.

[Dr. Ann Burgess]

Yeah.

[Julia Betavali]

The woman was so scared, and it was such a turn on for him that he assaults her.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Julia Betavali]

And in their research, Dr. Amber just is like.

[Elizabeth Burgess Dowdell]

And discovered these offenses looked very much like the pattern we see in people with an addiction. Less violent at first. Peeping through windows, stealing underwear, calling up somebody and using foul language and hanging up. And then there's a need to keep increasing the stimulus, like a drug, and.

[John Douglas]

It stops being exciting enough. That's when you can get the murder. I mean, that's what's so scary, because.

[Patrick Hines]

When one thing becomes not exciting enough, you have to escalate to the next thing.

[Julia Betavali]

And so that's what they're learning. Like, the underlying theme here is the excitement or the adrenaline rush and how.

[Patrick Hines]

You have to keep pushing the envelope to keep getting that rush.

[Julia Betavali]

It's never enough.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. And so they're saying the ski mask rapist is escalating with each of his attacks.

[Julia Betavali]

Right. Because he hadn't murdered anyone yet. But they know, based on this pattern, that they're learning he's going to.

[Dr. Ann Burgess]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

It's not just random. You know what I mean?

[Julia Betavali]

Yeah. It's not just like, oh, he's a bad guy. He did this thing. Like, if you listen to the people who are saying these things to you, you can figure it out and organize it in a way that makes sense.

[Dr. Ann Burgess]

Yes.

[Julia Betavali]

So Dr. Burgess goes down to talk to his survivors. They immediately think she's impersonating an FBI officer because she's a woman.

[Patrick Hines]

Unbelievable.

[Julia Betavali]

Excuse me.

[Patrick Hines]

And the guy's defending that to this day is like, well, I can kind of see it.

[Julia Betavali]

Next. Bye. We have. We have amazing women to talk to. I have no time for you.

[Dr. Ann Burgess]

Yes.

[Julia Betavali]

So she speaks to these women, and we hear the audio, and I just, like, want to cry listening to it, because she says, like she's saying to us, you know, she's tasked with this impossible thing to do, which is getting someone to try. She has like an hour. Like, how do I get these women to trust me? No one listens to them. No one believes them.

[Patrick Hines]

What she learned to say to them.

[John Douglas]

Was, I told her that they were asking because they wanted to get the offender. She's helping in this process. And once she knew that, she realized they really believed her and she would give up the information.

[Elizabeth Burgess Dowdell]

It took a great art to make people comfortable enough to be able to attest to those things.

[Rob Ressler]

That was a really unique skill set that nobody in the FBI had And very few people in the country had. And a lot of it did go back to, you know, her early work with victims of sexual assault.

[Julia Betavali]

And it also helps that Dr. Burgess is a woman.

[Dr. Ann Burgess]

Yes, of course.

[Julia Betavali]

And she sort of levels with them, and she's like. And she like, oh, my God, I'm gonna cry because she just says, like, I believe you.

[Dr. Ann Burgess]

Yeah.

[Julia Betavali]

I need to know this son of a bitch so I can get him and he doesn't do this again. So it's not as much as it is about you and your experience. There's no question with that.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Julia Betavali]

We need to get to the facts here so we can solve this puzzle together. I believe you.

[Patrick Hines]

Look, we've all seen movies from these times where it's like, what are these women dealing with? With their husbands and the men lives? You either don't believe them or don't want to talk about it. Right. They're not emotionally equipped to handle it. This is the first person to sit down with them and say, I see you. I believe you, and we're going to get this.

[Julia Betavali]

Some of their husbands might be mad at them. You don't know.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, we dealt with this with I'll be gone in the dark. Remember, like, all that, like, in the 70s, where all the husbands, like, either didn't know how to talk about it, blamed the woman, or just emotionally shut down, made it about them very similar.

[Julia Betavali]

To the husbands were there at the sky.

[Dr. Ann Burgess]

Yes.

[Julia Betavali]

You know?

[Patrick Hines]

Yes, exactly.

[Julia Betavali]

So also because we're talking about the ski mask rapist, which I'm sorry to keep saying it, but I know his identity now. Dr. Burgess and her work, she's explaining that the case took, like, some. A little bit, at least at the time. Took away some of that stigma about reporting it.

[Dr. Ann Burgess]

Yeah.

[Julia Betavali]

Because women were talking and then seeing other women talk about their experiences. They were helping each other. They were protecting each other.

[Dr. Ann Burgess]

Yes.

[Julia Betavali]

And there was a safe space for them to talk about it because, again, Dr. Amber, just like, it's not a question. I know this happened to you. I believe you.

[Dr. Ann Burgess]

Yes.

[Julia Betavali]

We got to get the son of a bitch.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. And so they're saying that, like, one of the things that they were trying to learn was why he chose these specific women.

[Julia Betavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And we learn that he was looking for wealthy women for whatever reason. That's what these victims all had in common.

[Julia Betavali]

So Dr. Burgess goes back to Quantico, hands over the information. She's not allowed.

[Dr. Ann Burgess]

Yeah.

[Julia Betavali]

In the room for the profiling session.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Julia Betavali]

I'm like, I know, Douglas. We're Breaking all the rules. Except this one.

[Patrick Hines]

Except this one.

[Julia Betavali]

Excuse me. She did all the work and you're like, thanks. Like, don't let the door hit you. Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

Thanks. Please. So the look of rage in your face.

[Julia Betavali]

So here's what the profile said.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julia Betavali]

He's a man, obviously.

[Dr. Ann Burgess]

Yes.

[Julia Betavali]

Age 27 to 34, unmarried. He sees himself, I love this wording. Sees himself as an alpha male, educated, probably served in the military, had a fancy sports car. Based on what he was stealing, like the fact that he liked nice things, they're assuming he probably had like one nice thing.

[Dr. Ann Burgess]

Yep.

[Julia Betavali]

So they're thinking maybe it's the car.

[Patrick Hines]

Incapable of long lasting relationships.

[Julia Betavali]

No shit.

[Patrick Hines]

He would most likely kill a resisting victim.

[Julia Betavali]

They are seeing this pattern here and they want to stop it. But also. So this guy is everywhere. He's in 70 different jurisdictions across the country.

[Patrick Hines]

And he's escalating, they say. Like it ends with them saying in September he shot a husband.

[Julia Betavali]

And at first I was like, are we sure this is the same guy?

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Julia Betavali]

Like he's in all these different states. Like he would. He would attack a woman, drive to a new state, attack someone else. But Dr. Burgess is like, no girl. Like we know this is the same.

[Patrick Hines]

Thing within like a couple of hours.

[Julia Betavali]

And like, he's escalating. And the rape, which is inherently violent, everyone at the FBI is getting more violent.

[Dr. Ann Burgess]

Right.

[Julia Betavali]

Like he's using up objects.

[Patrick Hines]

Like he's getting ready to take the next step is what they're saying.

[Julia Betavali]

So the profile is released. It's all over the news. It says ski mask profile. The screenshot of the tv. Did you catch that? This is probably recreated, actually, now that I'm looking at it again. Like number one, psychopath slash homicidal.

[Patrick Hines]

Uh huh.

[Julia Betavali]

Two, gun slash shoulder holster. Three, flashy car. Four, woman beater. We got to do better News in the 70s. So. Because now he shot the husband of a victim, which is the first time he's ever done anything like. Like that. The FBI is like, we gotta get on this because he's about to kill somebody. And that's how this episode ends.

[Patrick Hines]

Hey, fam, thanks for checking out episode one of Mastermind to think like a killer. Just a reminder that all three episodes are available right now and ad free over on Patreon, which is where you'll also find over 400, 450 full ad free bonus episodes and so much more. You can join [e-mail] true crime obsessed or just go to our website and click on the Patreon link. All right, fam. We love you. Happy holidays. Bye.