416: Glitter and Greed: The Lisa Frank Story Part 1

Summary

Detailed Summary of True Crime Obsessed Episode 416: "Glitter and Greed: The Lisa Frank Story Part 1"

Release Date: February 25, 2025
Host: True Crime Obsessed (Jillian Benzavalli and Patrick Hines)
Description: In this four-part series, the hosts delve into the intriguing and dark history of Lisa Frank, exploring the meteoric rise of her iconic brand and the sinister underbelly that fueled its success.

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Introduction

In episode 416, titled "Glitter and Greed: The Lisa Frank Story Part 1," True Crime Obsessed unpacks the fascinating yet troubling story behind one of the most beloved brands of the 90s—Lisa Frank. The hosts, Jillian Benzavalli and Patrick Hines, set the stage by highlighting the contrast between the brand's colorful, whimsical products and the dark realities within the company.

The Rise of Lisa Frank

Lisa Frank, a visionary artist, founded Lisa Frank Inc. in 1979. Known for her vibrant, rainbow-filled art featuring unicorns, dolphins, and other fantastical creatures, the brand became synonymous with colorful school supplies and stationery. Jillian reminisces, “[Lisa Frank was] an explosion of color… the cutest thing you've ever seen” (03:10).

Key Points:

• Founding and Vision: Lisa Frank established her company with a clear artistic vision, creating products that resonated deeply with children.
• Iconic Products: From rainbow dolphins to glittery unicorns, the designs were instantly recognizable and highly desirable.
• Commercial Success: By the mid-80s, Lisa Frank Inc. was generating impressive revenues, with reports of up to $66 million a year (03:36).

Inside the Company: Leadership and Culture

Behind the glittery façade, the company was plagued by severe internal issues. James Green, hired in 1982 as the company’s first full-time artist, quickly became Lisa’s right-hand man and took on a leadership role.

Notable Quotes:

• Patrick reflects on leadership struggles, saying, “Absolute power corrupts absolutely” (04:09).
• Jillian adds, “James is a monster” (04:25), highlighting the toxic work environment.

Key Points:

• Authoritarian Leadership: James Green was known for his exacting standards and lack of empathy, creating a hostile workplace.
• Employee Exploitation: Despite the company's financial success, employees were underpaid, with many struggling to afford basic necessities and relying on food stamps (29:00).
• Overwork and Stress: Staff were often required to work 12-hour days without adequate compensation, leading to widespread dissatisfaction and despair.

James Green: The Antagonist

James Green emerged as a central figure in the company’s downfall. Initially respected for his artistic talent and business acumen, his authoritarian approach turned him into a despised leader.

Notable Quotes:

• James admits, “I created the monster” (43:03), acknowledging his role in the company’s toxic culture.
• Patrick comments, “He’s a tantrum,” emphasizing Green’s volatile nature (35:30).

Key Points:

• Leadership Style: Green enforced strict control over all artistic outputs, ensuring every piece met his high standards before approval.
• Personal Relationships: His romantic involvement with Lisa Frank complicated the company dynamics, leading to power struggles and conflicts.
• Divorce and Fallout: Their marriage in 1994 was marred by tension, eventually leading to divorce and further destabilizing the company (32:00).

Impact on Employees

The dark side of Lisa Frank Inc. significantly impacted its workforce. Employees faced undue pressure, low wages, and abusive management practices.

Notable Quotes:

• Patty, a former employee, shares her struggles: “I was working full-time and still qualifying for food stamps” (30:06).
• Rondi Rowlett, Senior Designer, recounts a traumatic incident involving an employee’s accident: “She started yelling at me, screaming at me, why should I have to stay with him because it was his fault” (67:16).

Key Points:

• Financial Hardship: Despite the company's success, employees were paid poorly, forcing many to rely on government assistance.
• Abusive Practices: Supervisors like James and HR head Rhonda enforced punitive measures, including unjust firings and lack of support during personal crises.
• Mental Health Struggles: The oppressive work environment led to high stress levels, with reports of employees contemplating suicide and experiencing severe mental health issues.

Company Expansion and Ethical Issues

As Lisa Frank Inc. expanded, the pressures intensified. The company explored new product lines and even considered opening an amusement park, further stretching its resources and exacerbating internal tensions.

Notable Quotes:

• Jillian criticizes the company's priorities: “But the stakes for these people… it was like, my dream job… but it shouldn't be like that” (30:35).
• Patrick underscores the ethical dilemmas: “But they could have not told us” (14:09).

Key Points:

• Expansion Plans: Ambitious ventures threatened the company's stability, demanding more from already overworked employees.
• Cultural Misalignment: Attempts to shift the brand's focus away from whimsical animal characters to more trendy themes like pirate and rockstar girls alienated long-time fans and employees alike.
• Ethical Concerns: The company’s practices raised questions about exploitation and the true cost of its commercial success.

Conclusion and Tease for Part 2

The first part of "Glitter and Greed: The Lisa Frank Story" paints a picture of a glittering empire built on creativity and ambition but sustained by exploitation and toxic leadership. As the hosts conclude, they hint at deeper revelations and more shocking truths to be uncovered in the subsequent episodes of the series.

Closing Remarks: Patrick emphasizes the complexity of James Green’s character, noting, “I do believe he was a good dad” (53:37), juxtaposing his abusive behavior with glimpses of personal vulnerability. The episode ends on a cliffhanger, promising listeners an even more gripping continuation in part two, available exclusively on Patreon.

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Notable Quotes:

• “[The company] was like a rainbow roller coaster, to say the very least.” – Jillian Benzavalli (04:03)
• “Set the table. Let this be a lesson to all of us. It is never puppies and rainbows. Even when it is literally puppies and rainbows.” – Jillian Benzavalli (04:19)
• “He’s a monster.” – Jillian Benzavalli (04:41)
• “Absolute power corrupts absolutely.” – James Green (04:07)
• “It was the hardest thing to say to me, doing acrylics.” – Unnamed Employee (05:15)
• “They wanted people who took whatever shit they piled on them.” – James Green (06:18)
• “This is a business, have ideas and then other people who are good at those ideas make those ideas the reality.” – Patrick Hines (52:10)

Note: Timestamps are approximate and correspond to the moments in the transcript where the quotes appear.

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This episode sets the stage for an in-depth exploration of Lisa Frank Inc., revealing how a beloved brand can harbor dark secrets beneath its vibrant exterior. Stay tuned for Part 2, where the hosts promise to delve deeper into the complexities and controversies that defined Lisa Frank's empire.

Transcript

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Travel down the road back again, Fam.

[Patrick Hines]

I've got a question for you. What if everyone believed you were gone, brain dead, but you were still alive? And you had to find a way to let anyone know you were still there?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Blink is the haunting story of Jake Handel, a man who defied the impossible.

[Patrick Hines]

Jay Candle was given six months to live, his brain ravaged by a rare terminal disease. As his body failed, he slipped into a pseudo coma, laying motionless and helpless while doctors. Well, doctors declared him past the point of return. And loved ones visited less and less. But Jake wasn't gone. He was listening.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And what he overheard would change everything. A chilling confession that hinted at a betrayal far more sinister than he ever imagined.

[Patrick Hines]

Blink, Jake Hendle's story documents one man's journey of isolation, resilience, and the darkest corners of human relationships.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Jake's story involves heroin, secrets, and more than one murder attempt. And now, after years of silence, Jake is finally piecing together the events that brought him to the brink of death.

[Patrick Hines]

Blink, the untold true crime story of survival, betrayal, and a mystery that leaves no one innocent. Coming February 2nd. Wherever you listen to podcasts, I was not a sticker gay.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Oh, my God. I was all about Sandy Lyon. I loved Lisa Frank for sure, but Sandy lion was my sticker. I had sticker books. Really? The fuzzy ones. I'll get into it.

[Patrick Hines]

Are you going to be okay?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I don't know. The nostalgia factor is high in this.

[Patrick Hines]

Hi. Jillian Benzavalli.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Hi, Patrick Hines.

[Patrick Hines]

All right, fam. This is a reminder. We started a Discord.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. And it's a brand new thing. It's an addition. We're not taking anything away.

[Patrick Hines]

No. And for anybody who's, like, my age or older who barely knows what Discord is, it's another platform where we're bringing the community together. So we got the Facebook group and then Discord, which is more like a.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's like Slack, but for fun.

[Patrick Hines]

But I feel like if they don't know Discord, they're not going to know Slack.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I also, like, just learned Slack was.

[Patrick Hines]

I know, Me too. It's like a. It's a platform where there are, like, different channels and you can get in there and, like, go to, like, the Episode channel, go to the Pets channel, go to the book Club channel.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Tom, our editor, was like, do you want me to send you a link to a Taylor Swift Discord so you can kind of get the lay of the land before we start the TCO one? I was like, I do. Tom.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my God.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Fellow Swifty Tom, our editor I just.

[Patrick Hines]

Was at my daughter's book fair. I was like volunteering and the number of like kids Taylor Swift's books. I know this one girl spent $70 on like six different Taylor Swift books. I'm like, but it's all going to have the same information.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's all the same inspirational books and.

[Patrick Hines]

Like the cat names. Yeah, that's it. But there's also the Facebook group fam. It's the. It's the true crime obsessed podcast discussion group. And there's like 50 couple thousand people in there. Does something like that.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Give or take.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, that's all. What are we talking about today, girl?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

We're talking about glitter and greed. The Lisa Frank story. We are doing the first two episodes in our one episode because this is a four parter.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And so that's gonna be our regular episode this week. Right now. Episode 2 is available ad free on the Patreon. So if you gotta hear the conclusion, I gotta tell you, this gets much more interesting in the second two episodes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

The last episode really is like, oh.

[Patrick Hines]

It takes such a sharp left turn. I was so riveted by the final episode that is available right now on patreon at the $5 level ad free. It'll be our regular episode next week. That's how we do these things.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yep.

[Patrick Hines]

And that's it.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Alfred]

Lisa Frank's art had this nostalgia.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

An explosion of color.

[Rondi Rowlett]

Happy, magical.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

The cutest thing you've ever seen.

[Patrick Hines]

Lisa Frank's story started with a dream.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

That grew into a phenomenon.

[Patrick Hines]

Rainbows.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Unicorns.

[Rondi Rowlett]

But art defined an entire gener and.

[Patrick Hines]

She became known as the mastermind of an iconic brand.

[Alfred]

At one point, they were making a reported $66 million a year.

[Rondi Rowlett]

But behind the colorful brand, you know.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Things got very, very dark.

[Alfred]

How can something that created so much happiness go so wrong?

[Patrick Hines]

There's a scary side to the Lisa Frank story. Not everything was rainbows and unicorns. Oh, it's a rainbow roller coaster, to say the very least.

[James Green]

It felt like management by fear. Walk around on eggshells.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

They just took such advantage of us.

[James Green]

Who's gonna survive till next week? Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

They say you should never meet your idols. And it's true. Let me just say.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. Set the table.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Let this be a lesson to all of us. It is never puppies and rainbows. Even when it is literally puppies, puppies and rainbows.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's never. It's all a mess.

[Patrick Hines]

It's wild because I vacillate between. Yes. I'll talk heads in this Documentary. Having a job sucks, and sometimes your boss isn't nice. And, oh, my gosh, she's a monster.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. There's a lot going on here. There's a lot going on. A lot.

[Patrick Hines]

And he's a monster.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. And we forget she's not here, and she's not here. So we have a lot of unreliable narrators.

[Patrick Hines]

It's true. But, like, a lot of the other thing that I. That I really appreciated about this is how much people love their jobs. Like, when you get a job as an artist and you get to be an artist, like, people really, like, love that.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. And we just got to, like, pay them and respect the artist. That's the flaw in the plan.

[Patrick Hines]

That's the other thing. And it's also, like, we'll get there all throughout, but it's also a study in, like, people needing to know their boundaries and their limitations and people not being afraid to ask for raises. It's like, we've got to train the people who work for us that, like, these are okay conversations to have.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. And it's another reminder that the people on the Internet are not okay. They're unhinged. So let's dive into episode one.

[Patrick Hines]

I wrote that we open with a question that is basically for me, which is like, if an alien with no idea what Lisa Frank was came down to this planet and asked you to describe what Lisa Frank was, why don't you take it away?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. Because you're the alien in this situation.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm the alien. I have, like, I've seen it, I guess, but, like, I am just old enough to not have, like, had this be a part of my childhood.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. Lisa Frank was a brand that really got a major popularity in the 90s. It was an explosion of color.

[Rondi Rowlett]

It was bright, it was vibrant, happy, magical.

[James Green]

Wild cats with patterns.

[Patrick Hines]

Anything with, like, a dolphin on it, forget it.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I mean, it's like.

[Alfred]

It's the cutest thing you've ever seen.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

All the characters have these big eyes. It's really the imagery of, like, a child's dream. Very, very bright. Very, very surreal. All animals, like, the airbrush look.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Like a dolphin that was also a rainbow. A unicorn. Big, big eyes. Like, very. Just like. What is that? Like, an explosion of color and whimsy. I don't think I've ever used whimsy in a serious way, but it's true. It's very, like, whoa, what is that colorful, amazing little baby leopard doing on my folder?

[Patrick Hines]

And it was like a. In the world of school supplies because, like, at some point, they'll show us, like, what their competition was when it was like a red folder versus this.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Magical dolphin jumping through rainbows. And obviously you would think this would.

[Patrick Hines]

Speak right to my little gay heart.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I don't know where you were, girl.

[Patrick Hines]

I really. I was probably at some Indigo Girls concert. I was probably at drama club, taking it very seriously.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Oh, God.

[Patrick Hines]

You know one of those.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, you come to rehearsal day one off book for Bye Bye Birdie or don't come at all.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Are we allowed to have any fun or.

[Patrick Hines]

No, no, you can have fun at the opening night party, but, like, the rehears.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

But until then.

[Patrick Hines]

Until then. Yikes. Okay.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Happy I missed that segment of the program.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, it's too bad that we were in a drama club together. Wait, I have a question for you.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

They didn't invent Trapper Keepers, right? Like, that's not a Lisa Frank product.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

No, I believe Trapper Keeper is the actual name of the thing. Like, the Trapper Keeper was a very. It was a certain kind of folder that you opened like three ways.

[Patrick Hines]

So they did, like, a collaboration with.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Trapper Keeper, I imagine.

[Patrick Hines]

Okay. Okay.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Because I don't know who owns the trademark for Trapper Keeper. Tmtm.

[Patrick Hines]

But, like, remember when the Trapper Keeper was the. Now that was like my era. Like, the Trapper Keeper was the coolest thing.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And then they.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

You could have. Yes, I believe that's what it was. They were just collaborating because I think everything. You could have like a sports Trapper Keeper or you could have like a dinosaur Trapper Keeper or something. And I.

[Patrick Hines]

Once again, I say the gay dolphin. I can't believe I missed it because, like, the sports. I wasn't doing that.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Dinosaurs, I was totally doing.

[Patrick Hines]

I don't think I would. I was doing that.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Oh, my God. I was. I had things at home where you could, like, do like an archeological dig at home. And it was just like, Daisy has.

[Patrick Hines]

So many of those.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I. Yeah, that shit.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

She, like, her room is covered in kinetic sand. Do you know what this is?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I don't know what that is.

[Patrick Hines]

It's like sand that, like, cleans itself up, basically. It's wild.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Is it a living, breathing organism?

[Patrick Hines]

It's not really. It's not like the sourdough starter, but it is like. It's sand that, like, it gets all over the place, but then you, like, use the sand to clean itself up. It's w. It's very cool.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

That is news to me.

[Patrick Hines]

I know. I really think I just invented sticker books.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Anymore?

[Patrick Hines]

No, they just got self cleaning sand. Oh, my God, fam, do you know what kinetic sand is? If you do get in the group and explain it to me, because I see it and it's magical, but I don't really know what it does.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Okay.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Other than clean itself.

[Patrick Hines]

It cleans itself up is all I know.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. Travel down the road. Back again, girl.

[Patrick Hines]

Ollie is back this week. Look, fam, you know we love our dog. And this is all about the clean, fresh nutrition your dog needs. In five flavors. They will absolutely flip over. And Golden Truly loves them.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. So they have five protein first recipes, like.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Fresh beef with sweet potatoes.

[Patrick Hines]

Delish.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Fresh turkey with blueberries. Are you kidding me? Like, your dog's eating better than you do. I know, and they deserve it.

[Patrick Hines]

How about fresh lamb with cranberries?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Come on.

[Patrick Hines]

So here's how it works, fam. You fill out Ollie's 32nd quiz, and they'll create a customized meal plan based on your pup's weight, activity level, and other health info.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. And then Ollie crunches the numbers and recommends the right recipes and daily portions for your precious pup based on hundreds of thousands of real dog results.

[Patrick Hines]

And you can customize it, fam. Ollie offers three meal plans to choose from. So you can choose between a full fresh plan, fresh topper plan, or a mixed plan with their freshly baked recipes for your special baby. Yeah, you can't just go to the grocery store anymore and pick anything off the shelf. You gotta. You gotta take care of your puppy.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. And they also do that thing where they will send you, like two weeks worth of meals for your first time and a guide of how to gradually switch them over to their new diet. Truly, you can't just, like, give them a bowl of brand new food. They will be sick. Just a PSA from me to you.

[Patrick Hines]

So, fam, give your pup a fresh start this year by letting them taste test a personalized meal plan with ollie.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Head to ollie.com TCO, tell them all about your dog and use code TCO to get 60% off your first box of meals when you subscribe today.

[Patrick Hines]

Plus, they offer a clean bowl guarantee on the first box, so if you're not completely satisfied, you'll get your Money back.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

That's O-L L I E.com and enter code TCO to get 60% off your first box.

[Patrick Hines]

Start your dog's new year off right with Ollie. It feels really good to, like, know that you're giving them the good food. I mean that from the bottom of my heart.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's the absolute best.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So Tracy Egan Morrissey is a journalist. She wrote the big expose that this is kind of based on. And she said when she was growing up, Lisa Rate, she said, you want.

[Patrick Hines]

To say Lisa Rinna?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I love Lisa Rinna now. Now that I'm in Beverly Hills.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. She seems bananas to me, but I guess we like her.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

She's very. I like her. She has. She's like. She hasn't been a total asshole.

[Patrick Hines]

She hasn't crossed you yet.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

No, she's very nice. She's like a breath of fresh air when she comes onto Beverly Hills.

[Patrick Hines]

Great.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Cause we went through a real shitty. Everyone was like, just get through season four. Season four is a fucking mess. It's horrifying. Just get to season five and you'll be okay.

[Patrick Hines]

All right.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

That's Eileen and Lisa Rinna. So that's where I am now.

[Patrick Hines]

All right, well, thank you for keeping us posted on your journey.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

She's very nice. One of her opening is like. Unless you hear it from my lips, she really leans into the Lisa Rinna lips and she calls Harry Hamlin Harry Hamlin.

[Patrick Hines]

Hi, Harry Hamlin.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's really cute. Who gave this to you? Harry Hamlin. No, it's really cute.

[Patrick Hines]

Are you serious?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I think it's cute. Until she crosses someone. I don't know everyone. Like, I'm going in. This is my first journey here.

[Tom]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So please don't get mad at me if she ends up being horrible. She's very nice.

[Patrick Hines]

Now, you need a housewives podcast. I'm gonna. I'm petitioning for it.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So Tracy Egan Morrissey is a journalist, and she says Lisa Frank was all the rage. You had to have it. And she tells the story that her friend was going to grad school, and.

[Alfred]

I thought it'd be kind of cute to get her some Lisa Frank stationary. Maybe some flavor, a pencil case or something like that. I couldn't find them anywhere, and I was like, oh, what happened to that company? Are they just not making stuff anymore? And so I just kind of went down a rabbit hole.

[Patrick Hines]

She wanted to get her school supplies for a fifth grader. Great. Good for you, Tracy.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Look, nostalgia is a very special thing. I got Ashley one year for Christmas, the T for Troy from High School Musical necklace.

[Patrick Hines]

Okay. See, that's another thing. I barely know what that is.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Oh, my God. We saw High School Musical 3 in the theater.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, please.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So nostalgia. Cute.

[Patrick Hines]

I totally.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I'm into it.

[Tom]

Right?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Ashley had the tea necklace before Taylor Swift did. Just saying. But it's Tea for Troy, of course. It's very Troy and Gabriella, this whole thing talking about. So Tracy wants to get her Lisa Frank school supplies, and she can't find Lisa Frank anywhere. Yeah, she was like, back when I was looking for school supplies, it's the only thing you could find, and now there's nothing. So she starts diving into why Lisa Frank isn't a thing anymore.

[Patrick Hines]

I also want to believe that her friend is going to, like, medical school. Like, she's showing up at, like, Yale Law School with medical science. Like, with her Lisa Frank shit.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I love that.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, it's hard. Yeah, yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Pink.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Fuzzy notebook.

[Patrick Hines]

So we learn through Tracy that Lisa Frank is kind of a mystery. That, like, very few people have interviewed her. And I was like, okay, I don't know who this person is, really. But now I'm. Now I'm intrigued because, like, if. If it's like, this big of a thing, but she doesn't really give interviews. Like, all right, Willy Wonka. I'm interested to know more.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. So Carly is here. She's a fashion designer, and she's a longtime Lisa Frank fan. So in 2005, Carly actually gets to interview Lisa Frank. And she's like, this is crazy, because she's, like, my hero. So now I get to, like, read about her and actually speak to her. Oh, my God. So the Lisa Frank story is that she grew up in the suburbs of Detroit, like, a quiet, conservative neighborhood, went.

[Patrick Hines]

To the same high school as Carly.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Apparently, which is like, that's. Oh, my God. Imagine being Carly. Like, I went to the same high school.

[Patrick Hines]

What a coincidence. I know. That's so wild.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. Lisa Frank goes to Arizona for college. She majored in art education.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And now this one, I was like.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, I. I had the same thought.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

To make money in college, she started building a business. She would go to the reservations and buy Kachina dolls. And she was making money by being this middleman between Native American art and people collecting these pieces, taking the dolls they made, and selling them, and being.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, the middle person and, like, keeping the profit.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I'm assuming we don't get the details of what she was doing.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

They can just kind of, like, drop it in. They could have not told us 1.

[Patrick Hines]

Million persons they did, and then they.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Don'T tell us all the details. So I'm like.

[Patrick Hines]

Immediately, I'm like, oh, colonizer and also documentarian. You would know. I think that you should understand how problem that story is at this point.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

In time is like, so this is how she Got into the art world.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's not really like the foray into the art world.

[Patrick Hines]

And then we skip right over to her cute jewelry making. So like, we meet her friend Evan from college who is saying that she's like making. Now this is the kind of thing I wish I was good at or had like the sense of. She just kind of knew if she made these like quirky, cute, little like a cheesecake earring or like button or like a little rabbit eating a carrot or like a celery stuff and like it. Love it. To the tune of like Bloomingdale selling this.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. So Lisa Frank Inc. Is formed in 1979.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And her pieces are in Bloomingdale's. Like, they're in all these. She's ambitious, she's successful, she's creative, she's making money, she's very interesting.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, who else would be thinking to like, try to market like celery stock pins.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

To Blooming.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

You're kind of like, oh, what's that? Like, it gets your attention.

[Patrick Hines]

And it's the kind of thing where like, if you have a mind like that, then you're just kind of on the cutting edge of like what people are interested in. Like, it's a very, like, you have to be some kind of genius to do that.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Well, what she does in acts.

[Tom]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

She gets into the sticker craze or.

[Patrick Hines]

Invents the sticker craze.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Like the. When I tell you I loved stickers, Mike still gets me stickers. Like they'll be in like a little card that he gets me for an event.

[Patrick Hines]

Explain this to me. And I, I really am just trying to understand the joy of like peeling it off the paper and then putting it on another piece of paper.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

No, no, no. You saved them in a sticker book and saved them for, for like an event that you never ended up using them. So you just like had a sticker book.

[Patrick Hines]

So you were like.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It was like more about collecting the stickers.

[Patrick Hines]

Okay. Uh huh.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So Sandy lion was. Okay, here's what's good about work this week. Two days ago I was googling Gout Ultra scene murder for hire.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Today I get to take a walk down memory lane. Google Image search Sandy lion stickers. Yeah. Now this is a totally different brand. So that was more my vibe.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So it came in sets. Some of them are fuzzy, some of them are shiny, some of them are glittery. There were oilies. Oily's was the big thing.

[Patrick Hines]

What's an oily.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

An oily sticker. What would be something maybe like an inch or two big, and it was like. You know how sticker can be fuzzy?

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

The thing that this was made out of was, like, colorful oil that, like, if you pressed it, it moved.

[Patrick Hines]

Okay.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

These were the best that you only traded, like, whoa. Only your best. Got it.

[Patrick Hines]

You were trading these.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

You could trade them if you wanted to. You could save them in a sticker book. I was always making stuff for people so that I would use, like, who gets the oily?

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my God.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Or I'd save them, and they'd live in my sticker book until they turned brown and useless because I was like, I can't use the dolphin oily.

[Patrick Hines]

Right, right, right.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Less like, I need the most perfect thing for it. And then time would go by, and then it's like, oh, now it's brown and it's worthless.

[Patrick Hines]

Do you have any?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I think we found a sticker book not too long ago, like, several ish years ago. But I love. They came in sets so you could buy, like, pages and pages of, like, the Christmas one. Or, like, the fish. They had, like, glittery fish.

[Tom]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

The sticker craze is real. I am here to tell you I love it, love it, love it.

[Patrick Hines]

You know what they have now? They've got, like, sticker coloring books. Follow me on this. Where you're not. You don't color. They give you the stickers over here, and you piece them into the pony.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Okay.

[Patrick Hines]

So, like, you color the pony with the stickers. It seems less fun to me.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Oh, yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

You know what I mean?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So then it's like, oh, it has to be that color.

[Patrick Hines]

Correct. Exactly. Or like, you can pick a match. But, like, oh, okay.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

In my creative time, I like to be creative.

[Patrick Hines]

Listen, I agree. I don't know what's going on. I'm still stuck on Kinetic sands.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

All right. Sandy lion for life. I need to get myself some Sandy lion stickers.

[Patrick Hines]

Totally.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

If Mike is listening to this, he already wrote it down in his present app, Sweetheart.

[Patrick Hines]

So Alfred is here. He was an illustrator for Lisa Frank from 1981 to 1984. When I first started working for her, it was Lisa and her finance guy. And that's it. Lisa and I, we remain friends. We still are friends to this day. Maybe not after this video. I don't know. Dot, dot, dot, maybe.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I don't know. He's like, probably not after this, but here we go.

[Patrick Hines]

But it's like, Alfred, you didn't actually say anything. That bad?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

No, I mean, look, so this guy responds to an ad in the paper, and that's how he gets hired.

[Patrick Hines]

And he's one of the very first hires of Lisa Frank back when she was like, her. Her warehouse was like, in a strip mall.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

1981.

[Patrick Hines]

This is right.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And this is like. Yeah. So Lisa Frank, she's described. She has big eyes. She has big, like, black hair, rail thin, very colorful. Patterns never match. Like, she looked like someone who would come up with these ideas now that the patterns. She would have, like, broccoli earrings. She looks like a woman who would wear broccoli earrings.

[Patrick Hines]

What a right. I would never. My brain would never work that way, you know, like, that's just because the patterns that she's. She's like, wearing polka dots on the bottom and stripes on the top. And it's like everybody's mom has a colorful friend like this.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Like your Betsey Johnson's, your Patricia Fields.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes. Oh, my God.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right. But apparently she sounds Gilda Radner.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Roseanne Rosanna, then.

[Patrick Hines]

And people are saying that, like, whenever they're asking anybody about her, the first thing that they go to is her appearance because she is so, like, outlandish looking, or not outlandish looking, but she's just a person with, like, a really clear sense of personal style.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

She wear broccoli earrings?

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And she'd make them.

[Patrick Hines]

I cannot imagine what it would be like to have that sense of personal style. To be like, I'm going to wear this thing that nobody else wears, but I'm going to know it looks good. I mean, I'm going to wear the shit out of it with confidence. Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Like, she wears it. It doesn't wear her.

[Patrick Hines]

Totally. I've never. All of my clothes are wearing me right now. And just barely.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Bar. But we learned, like, the thing about Lisa Frank from the very beginning, she always had a very clear vision.

[Tom]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Exactly what she wanted. She was original. Not everyone understood the broccoli earrings, but she's like, I'm telling you, stay with me. And Bloomies was like, yes, I'm 100% in.

[Patrick Hines]

Her market is like little girls 8 to 10 who are spending daddy's money. That's, you know, and what a. What a market to tap into, you know?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So 1982, she gets a $1 million sticker order from Spencer Gifts, which.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, I looked this up, by the way. I didn't write it down, but that is like the equivalent of like $8 million today.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's a huge. For stickers.

[Patrick Hines]

Huge order.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Major.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So, Al. Alfred Bales. It's too cute for him. Too girly.

[Patrick Hines]

He's out.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

He's out.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. You're still friends? You're still going to the Christmas party? Alfred, you haven't said anything too bad.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I mean, I don't know, just like.

[Patrick Hines]

For participating in the documentary, kind of.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Once we get to the end of.

[Patrick Hines]

This thing, I'm telling you, it takes a real left turn in the last episode. It might be worth joining the paints this one week just to get it early. Telling you the truth.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Travel down the road. Back again, girl.

[Patrick Hines]

Live Good is back. I am obsessed. I've been taking their Super Greens. But the whole thing about Live Good, they are the supplement that is amazing for you without being insanely expensive.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. Like, so many of these supplement companies are charging these ridiculous prices and the products are met at best.

[Patrick Hines]

Totally.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So livegood is changing all that.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Like I said, I got my hands on the Super Greens. I'm always trying to, like, make myself have more vegetables because we try to make Daisy eat the vegetables, but she doesn't want to and she points out that I don't either. So I got the Super Greens because I was like, look, this is the easiest way for me to get like as much of veggies in my system as possible. And it's easy and I love it.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah, they have tons of stuff that's really good for you. They have multivitamins, there's collagen, there's protein powder, creatine if you're looking for some muscle. They have hormone products, they have skin care products. They're all the highest quality products at prices people can actually afford.

[Patrick Hines]

That makes the biggest difference. And it's no wonder. They're the fastest growing supplement brand on the planet with over 1.5 million customers, including me, and counting.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

On the planet.

[Patrick Hines]

On the whole planet, I'm going to say solar system at this point. You know what I mean?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

You know what?

[Patrick Hines]

So, fam, are you ready to make the switch and start saving? We'll make it even easier for you.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Use our link and you can save an additional 10% off your first order on top of the already lowest prices.

[Patrick Hines]

Just go to livegood.com TCO to save 10% on your first order.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

That's livegood.com TCO don't miss out on.

[Patrick Hines]

This opportunity to invest in your health without overspending.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I mean, if we have to take the supplements, do they have to charge an arm and a leg?

[Patrick Hines]

No.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

No, they don't is the answer.

[Patrick Hines]

Get those Super Greens So you can make your kid eat the broccoli and say, I do it too.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Exactly. It's really all about that. Rondi Coutts is here. She's the senior designer and product development lead from 1987 to 2002. So she was there for a lot.

[Patrick Hines]

She was there for a. And she has really been through it. And the way that she ends up leaving this company in the end is the most insane, heartbreaking thing I've ever heard.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

We also meet Patty. She's a concept artist, and these women are telling us.

[Rondi Rowlett]

And I was like, oh, my God, I've got to work here. This is where I have to be. Growing up is scary, but heck, if I could get a job being a kid, then why not? I did love working there.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, it is one of my.

[Rondi Rowlett]

High highlights of my life.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

They're like, it's healing our inner child.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. There's a show on that Daisy watches called True. If anybody knows this show, it looks like Lisa Frank stuff. It's like. It looks like the Lisa Frank world. It's very bright, rainbow colors and trippy. We could say literally a little trippy. And they're saying that, like, walking into the office was, like, walking into that world, like, it just lifts your spirit.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's what I would want an acid trip to be.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Because I know it can go either way.

[Patrick Hines]

You know, I'm getting the cockroaches. No way. I'm not getting the component that's really.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

The only thing keeping you from doing it. That has stopped me from doing any kind of psychedelics is that, like, I. I would want to do it in such a controlled environment in a way where I, like, inherently trust the person who's guiding me through it. Because I don't want to take that turn and have, like, a really bad.

[Patrick Hines]

Is it based on your mood? Is that how it determines if you get the unicorns or the cockroaches?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

No, I think that's too temperament. I'm not going to start punching.

[Patrick Hines]

Can you pay an extra for the. For the unicorns?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I don't know. That's the thing where I'm like, yeah, not worth.

[Patrick Hines]

Not worth it to find out. Because I'd be the guy peeing himself in the corner, like, jumping out the window with bugs all over me like that Helen Hunt in that movie.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Is that a good thing? Is it arguable that it's like, then you walked through the fear, and now you.

[Patrick Hines]

But if I jump out the window, I'm probably gonna die?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Well, not that part Someone. The person will be there. Well, I would hope that's the point of, like, having someone.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Like, guiding you there. Who's not on.

[Patrick Hines]

Okay. Because I'm never also doing ayahuasca. I'm never gonna do it.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's like, I want to do it, but I'm like, I'm scared to do it.

[Patrick Hines]

Everyone. You poop yourself in ayahuasca.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

You do.

[Patrick Hines]

Most of the time. You poop yourself.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I didn't hear that.

[Patrick Hines]

Remember when Gwyneth sent all those people into the jungle to do.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Because I didn't watch that stupid show, G.W.

[Patrick Hines]

Paltrow sent all of her staff into, like, the jungles of Brazil to do ayahuasca. The poor gay guy is pooping himself and crying for the hot guy to come over and rub his face, which he does. Everyone survived. And then they're like, we're going to do it again. I'm like, why? What about. This looked fun.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's probably, like, refreshing after. I don't know. Anyway, by the 90s, Lisa Frank was like the school supply company. Pens, paper, stationary, pencil cases. She was charging four times more than everyone else and getting it because it's like you had to have Lisa Frank.

[Patrick Hines]

It's what I was saying before. It was either you get those yellow number two pencils or you get the ones with the fudgeing gay dolphins all over it. What are you going to choose? The gay dolphins.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

But speaking of that, though, it was, like, aligned with pop culture. So Free Willy was like, the rainbow whale.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So what was going. What kids were into at the time suddenly, like, you weren't realizing it, but, like, oh, I like whales now. Oh, my God, there's a rainbow whale.

[Tom]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Like Free Willy.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It was just like, oh, a whale.

[Tom]

Yes. Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So they really want us to know.

[Rondi Rowlett]

Lisa may not have, you know, created all the art herself, but she definitely had a hand in the final product. She would come by and say, you know what? I want some giraffes today, or give me something with a rhino.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

She wasn't physically creating the art.

[Patrick Hines]

It's always shocking to me that people have a hard time with this.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Like, she was heavily involved. She was giving specific directions. She knew what she wanted. She was demanding in that sense. She wanted it in a certain way. And that certain way usually works.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, let me say this. We don't edit our episodes anymore. Like, after years and years of me editing these episodes, we hired editors that we trusted and trained a long time ago. I mean, six, seven years ago.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

To like, hi, Tom and Jennifer. Like the best editors in the absolute fucking world. But, like, that's how this works. Not one person can't run a company and be sitting at a drafting board, like, you know, like drawing every gay dolphin.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. We'll get into why that's like, that's what a business is in a little bit. But first. But here's where the red flags come in. Because if she liked what you did, she was nice to you and she didn't like you, she'd make your life hell. And that sucks. Like, that's not okay.

[Patrick Hines]

I will never also understand why it has to be like that. You know what I mean? Like, why doesn't Lisa Frank understand that artists are going to. Like, not every idea is going to be a Picasso.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. And like, for these women who are like, oh, it's healing my inner child, for them to also say, it was like trying to please a parent, it's like, no, no, no, no. I know we've gone around the bend. This is bad.

[Patrick Hines]

But the other. If we take anything away from this episode, I want people who are working. And this is not true for everybody. I totally understand. But if you are able to have agency in your workplace, have agency in your workplace. Demand to not be treated like that. Ask for the raise. Tell them that you need to leave at 5. Like, I know that, like, that is not a thing that can apply to everybody, but that, that is like, you know, that was like just hurting my heart for these people so much was that they, they felt that they had no other options. Right.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. So. Oh, God. James Green.

[Alfred]

You really can't talk about Lisa Frank Inc. Without talking about James Green. James Green began working for Lisa Frank Inc. In 1982 as the company's first full time artist. Green quickly became Lisa's right hand and assumed a leadership role in the company.

[Patrick Hines]

He's a real character.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

He's an asshole.

[Tom]

Yeah. Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, I think he's definitely an asshole, but like, I think it's not for me. Completely black and white.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Well, we learn he assumed a leadership role in the company.

[Tom]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

He's a, he's a talented artist as he's described. And people are saying he did a lot for their success. All the art had to go through James.

[Tom]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And it wouldn't get made without his approval. So he caught everything. He was exacting. Like there was an overlapping star. Small errors. His attention to detail was paramount.

[Patrick Hines]

And his commitment to the business. Right. Like he's there 24 7. And the other thing to remember now this is a bad thing. What I'm about to say. These people and this company existed in a time where it wasn't de rigueur, that like bosses had to be nice to their employees. Like, that was across the board, you know, so like, this man does not have any sense of kindness. He does not have any sense of empathy. All he's thinking about is build this billion dollar business. But that's, I mean, that's what working was like until very recently.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Well, that sucks.

[Patrick Hines]

It absolutely sucks. You know?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. So, you know, sometimes James and Lisa would clash. They would have differing opinions, but they were, you know, the tension. They were working together all the time. They had great ideas. When it worked, it worked. And when it didn't, it was exploded.

[Patrick Hines]

And people are like, well, who had more power? I'm like, well, doesn't she own the business? Exactly.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So it's the 90s. Lisa Frank has exploded. She's on CNN. She's like, everyone's talking about her. They were in stores. They had their own stores.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Someone says it was not just a brand, it was an entire culture.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

They're getting fan mail from little girls.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I know, it's very cute.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So like, Lisa Frank was on top of the world. And here's the thing, she wanted to stay there. And who can blame her?

[Rondi Rowlett]

At that time, there was just so much to lose if something were to, you know, go wrong. Product was promised, had to be on the shelves, they had to ship on time. And it was a lot of product. They required you to just be like, boom, boom, boom. There was a lot of pressure.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So it's like one thing to be successful, but then you gotta stay on top. And that's the hard part.

[Patrick Hines]

That is absolutely the hard part.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So she was scared. She couldn't keep up with the trends and like, where the world and where culture was going. Cause she like had. She was like the Beatles for a couple years and now she's like, wait.

[Patrick Hines]

And because she instinctively got herself there, it wasn't like she was studying trends and was like, I'm gonna make this company. Her vision happened to align with the times sort of magically.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And when she's so successful, everyone's going to be comparing the next thing to 1991. Lisa Frank. That was the height of it.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Now here's the thing though. Like, it's described as there's so much to lose. There's a lot of pressure. And not just on Lisa Frank, but her employees.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Her employees are barely making minimum wage. They're struggling to feed their kids. They're qualifying for food stamps. Lisa girl. What the fuck is that about?

[Patrick Hines]

And they're working 12 hours a day.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

This woman, our days.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Patty is saying she's working for 825 making minimum. What she describes this story about. Like she says to the producer, I don't know if you've ever been on food stamps, but I would go to the. You have to have an interview.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And you go to the interview. The person's like, why can't you get a job and take care of your family? She's like, I have a job. I mean this is like was Walmart for years and years people were working full time at Walmart and still qualifying for food stamps. Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Amazon too, right?

[Patrick Hines]

Absolutely insane.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And everyone's like, oh, it was such high stakes. Not really curing cancer. You're making gay dolphin stickers. That. Which I love.

[Patrick Hines]

But the stakes for these people as I understand it, is more. It's my dream job. Who else is going to pay me to be an artist? My whole family told me I would never make it, but here I am.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yes, totally fair.

[Patrick Hines]

You know, and so it is kind of like I am going to make the sacrifice of keeping this like low paying, kind of shitty work environment for the job that I love. And it just shouldn't be like that. Especially when Lisa is living high on the hog and everyone's seeing this. She's got maids and servants.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

She lives in a mansion.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, of course.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I mean she lives in a mansion and some of these people can't feed their kids or buy toilet paper.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's insane.

[Patrick Hines]

It's insane.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And then she also hire people on salary and then switch to an hourly wage was. Which would be a significant pay cut.

[Patrick Hines]

But this is what I'm saying. Like I don't understand. Like, and once again, like I was a for hire worker for most of my life, so I understand that like you feel like you don't have any power. You feel like you can't go to the boss. And I was thinking about this guy who's telling that story about like he was hired on a deal. It feels like a bait and switch to me.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It is.

[Patrick Hines]

We're going to pay you all this money and now we're going to make you hourly, make you work twice the amount for half the money. And I'm just thinking how did they get away with this now?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Especially because no one was making enough money to survive. And I'm talking about putting food on the table, not taking the luxury vacations that Lisa Frank was taking.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

The only people not struggling are Lisa Frank and James Green.

[Patrick Hines]

And.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Oh, guess what?

[Alfred]

Lisa Frank and James Green may have started as business partners, but it turns out they were romantic partners as well.

[Rondi Rowlett]

I mean, they seem like, you know, good friends, but apparently Lisa and James had been together for quite a few years.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

For years.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. But then they invite everybody to their lavish wedding in 1994.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

They get married now.

[Patrick Hines]

This wedding is insane. The horse is all of us. Because Lisa Frank rides up on like a horse drawn carriage. She gets out of the carriage and the horse takes a huge piss.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

You know what?

[Patrick Hines]

Right behind her. Good on him. The horse is all of us.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So there were like Lisa Frank characters there. Huge dress, huge hat. Now she. This is. This makes me crazy. She asked a guest to also do the videography and then was rude to them. And the guest is like, I want to enjoy myself too, girl. This is why you hire people. Let your wedding guest be your wedding guest.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

God.

[Patrick Hines]

Say I know. I know.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So they get married. No one really understands or gets the relationship.

[Patrick Hines]

Can we also talk a little bit more? Hang on. We got to talk about, like, the home video that we see from the wedding. Because James is, like, being a real asshole. Like, asshole. He's like, they're drinking the champagne, but he doesn't want the champagne in the picture, so he throws it away. She's like, that's $20. He's like, Archer, they don't look like they like each other at all.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

They hate each other.

[Patrick Hines]

And they just got married.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

They hate each other.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And meanwhile, the people that you invited to your wedding can't feed their K. Right.

[Patrick Hines]

They can't throw a wedding cake in their purses to take home.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

They can't buy toilet paper.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And you're throwing champagne away.

[Tom]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

You're assholes. So everyone's like, whatever, it's working. I'm like, is it because they were married for a few years and after a few years of marriage, they're still married?

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

The term that someone uses is Lisa gifted James 49% of her company in.

[Patrick Hines]

Shares, which is just a very bad business move.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And she does it in the height.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Of her success in the 90s, right. Walmart, Target, Kmart, Tons of sales. Like, they're thinking about opening the Lisa Frank amusement park. They have money to burn. And she gives this guy that everyone hates. Including Lisa Frank.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

49% percent of her company in shares.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

In the late 90s, Lisa Frank Inc.

[Alfred]

Hit its highest profits ever. They were planning on doing an amusement park, product lines, toys, things like that.

[Patrick Hines]

They had big clients like Walmart, Target and Kmart.

[James Green]

Lisa drove a Mercedes.

[Patrick Hines]

James Green drove.

[Alfred]

They eventually had a private jet. It was a 12 seater.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

A 12 seater?

[Tom]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Their employees are on food stamps. Yes, I'm going to mention it every time. Yeah, they have this brand new 300,000 square foot headquarters. Yeah, it's a big, big warehouse. You can see the rainbow from the.

[Patrick Hines]

Airport from the sky as you're flying.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

In on either the private jet or not.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. So they got the street named after her.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Lisa Franklin Avenue, 1980.

[Patrick Hines]

That's what we're going to rename 8th Avenue, by the way.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

We can't because she sucks.

[Patrick Hines]

But I'm saying I want our named tco. It's going to be True Crime Obsessed Avenue. What do you think?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

In the heart, mouth is a little wordy. True Crime Obsessed.

[Patrick Hines]

Are you going to take seventh, eighth or True Crime Obsessed Avenue?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Can you imagine?

[Patrick Hines]

It's on 47th between True Crime Obsessed and 9th Avenue.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Oh my God.

[Patrick Hines]

I want to see if we can do Gulf of America. We can do anything.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I can't even talk about it. We're not doing it. I don't subscribe to it. It's the fucking Gulf of Mexico.

[Patrick Hines]

Can we call the Hudson river the True Crime Obsessed River?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

No.

[Patrick Hines]

Why?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's a little too close to that other guy for me. You know what I mean? It's a little too close.

[Patrick Hines]

Did True Crime Obsessed Harbo. We'll just name. We'll rename the New York City harbor.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

We can name this booth the True Crime Obsessed Recording Booth. Does that help you in some way? I'm trying everyone, I'm trying. Travel down the road. Back again, girl.

[Patrick Hines]

Quince is back. You know that I'm working my way up to being a fancy gay, right? But just because I love luxury doesn't mean I can always afford it. And that's where Quince comes in. Because it's the luxury without the price tag.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. So I basically live in Quint, if anyone wants to know about me. Because I have that nylon camera cross body bag that I'm absolutely obsessed with.

[Patrick Hines]

And you always say it whenever we get the copy. You're like, I love that crossbody bag.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's my favorite. It honestly, it's my favorite. I used it all this weekend because it was pouring rain and because it was nylon, I could use that all the time. I also have the jogger lounge set and my new favorites, the bamboo jersey short sleeve pajama set. And they look like fancy hotel pajamas.

[Patrick Hines]

I love this.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

They're so comfortable.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, get this. Quint's items are all priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. This is what I always say, go to the website and look. You're going to be shocked at how inexpensive things are.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

They show you the price difference. So I'll be like, it normally retails for blank, but we're selling it for X. It's amazing.

[Patrick Hines]

They do this by working with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. And we love that.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's like, I honestly, anyone can find anything there. At first I was like, I don't really know if this is my style.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

But now I have pajamas.

[Patrick Hines]

I have like a crossbody bag.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. And I also have the pullover crew that I love. Like, I'm living in quints.

[Patrick Hines]

I got my fulls at Magnolia and Cashmere and I love it.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

There you go.

[Patrick Hines]

So, fam, give yourself the luxury Jillian has and that you deserve with Quinn.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

We all deserve it. Go to quince.com tco for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns.

[Patrick Hines]

That's Q U I N C E dot com tco to get free shipping and 365 day returns.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Quince.com tco you're not even gonna need those returns.

[Patrick Hines]

But they're there if you want them. But you're not gonna need them.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

No. And it's one of those sets where you can be like, oh, am I sitting like reading a book all day? No. Am I also running errands? No. Oh, I can do all of it and look super cute. Okay, great girl.

[Patrick Hines]

Chime is back. Look, we gotta talk about how the world is expensive these days. And look, enter the Chime Credit Builder card. This is a secured credit card with no annual fees.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And this is all about. You can build credit with money you set aside and avoid interest or expensive debt, which seems to really not be possible.

[Patrick Hines]

And I was always in my younger days looking for a way to build my credit because my credit was in the garbage. And this would have been perfect for me.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Plus, you can get access to my pay and get up to $500 of your pay before payday with no mandatory fees.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So you start building your credit with everyday purchases and regular on time payments, all with no annual fees, interest or credit check at chime.com/tco. That's where you go to do this.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

They also have my favorite part fee, free overdraft.

[Tom]

Oh, yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

With Spot me so you can overdraft up to 200 bucks without fees with Spot Me when you set up a qualifying direct deposit. So all you have to do is set up a qualifying direct deposit. Sign up for Spot Me and Chime will spot you up to $200 when you exceed your balance. So you have to worry about getting penalized.

[Patrick Hines]

God. That used to kill me. And I will do you even one better. It gives you access to 50,000 plus fee free ATMs. Did I tell you about the time I paid a $6 fee on an ATM because I was desperate for cash? I know you can easily find one of Those fee free ATMs near you with the Chime app. I'm telling you. Like right there. Hook, line and sinker right there. Unbelievable. So fam. Turn your everyday purchases into steps towards your financial goals with Chime Secure credit card.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Get started [e-mail] TCO that's chime.com TCO Chime feels like progress given the mandatory disclosures.

[Patrick Hines]

Girl.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

The Chime Credit builder Visa credit card is issued by the Bancorp Bank NA or Stride bank na. Spot Me eligibility requirements and overdraft limits apply. Out of network ATM withdrawal and OTC advance fees may apply. Late payment may negatively impact your credit score. Results may vary. MyPay eligibility requirements apply. Credit limits range $20 to $500. Go to Chime.com disclosures for details.

[Patrick Hines]

She doesn't feel great. And she nailed it. Thank you.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So it's 1995. Lisa and James have their first son. They name him Hunter Green after the color because James's last name is actually green. So their two sons are Hunter Green and Forest Green.

[Patrick Hines]

Do you know what this immediately made me think of? Are you too young for Murphy Brown?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I know of Murphy Brown. I never watched it.

[Patrick Hines]

So one of the co anchors was Corky Sherwood and she. Her husband's last name was Forrest, so she became Corky Sherwood Forest.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Oh, no. But that's like a bit for a sitcom.

[Patrick Hines]

A bit for a sitcom. This is someone's so good. I know.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Like, and then they named two characters after their son. So Hunter was a leopard.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And Forest was a tiger. So after they have these kids, James really took over and he was a super dick.

[Patrick Hines]

I just, like, I'm not saying this to be gross or funny. I cannot imagine the two of them having sex. They don't like each other.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

They hate.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, you know what I mean. I guess you don't have to like each other to have sex. But like, what. What is the. What is that? It feels like James, like, weasel his way in to, like, getting half the company. And that's kind of like.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I don't understand the marriage. I really don't. I don't know why you can't just have a business arrangement with someone. I don't. I don't get the.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, unless, like. I mean, eventually we're going to learn. Like, there was all this external pressure on both of them to get married eventually, and they found each other and they're spending all this time together anyway. Like, maybe this is. Maybe we'll make it work.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

No one says anything about it. No one gives us any details about any of it. So after they have the kids, James is the president and he's an asshole. So he would have these really weird rules, and he would have this newsletter called Frankly Speaking. And it's basically telling everyone to shut up and stop complaining and just be grateful to work there.

[Patrick Hines]

And it really is culty. Like, this is really very, very culty.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

These people are working 18 hours a day and are on food stamps and can't feed their kids, and they're, like, yelling at that. Being optimistic is simply a choice. Be positive. Negative people make positive people sick. You know who makes me sick?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. James, be loyal. Bosses will forgive carelessness, stupidity, tardiness, and a temper tantrum. These can be corrected. But disloyalty is a true character flaw. You cannot and will not be trusted. Frankly speaking. Where did he come up with that title?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It sounds like a fragile man who thinks all feedback is criticism, who can't. Fuck it. He's a child.

[Patrick Hines]

It's literally Dear Leader. Like, that's what this is.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's exhausting. Yeah, this is exhausting. And everyone hated this guy, and he would look for things to complain about. So remember, like, earlier we were like, he was exacting. He had an attention to detail.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Now he's overcorrected. And he's a super dick about it because he would be looking for things to complain about. And then he started this thing called the critique table.

[Patrick Hines]

What is so crazy to me is that, like, they've got, like, everybody who is. Has a job and creates a business should do the part of the business that they love and are good at. So he should have been running the books, maybe approving the artist. Well, but. But what I mean is they need somebody overseeing the people. And we're going to meet her in a minute. The person they hired to do that, like, loved the job, but was. And I guess, like, in a business sense, was good at it, but was also Very unkind.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. Any. James is abusive.

[Tom]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

He'd be super mean. And it's like you're critiquing art for your business. There's no need to be rude and abusive to these people.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Like someone leaves early to go to the bank. Oh my God. To feed their kids, probably. Hopefully James padlocked the door because people were, quote, trying to escape. He, this man is a fragile fucking misogynistic asshole.

[Patrick Hines]

My whole thing was like, I literally wrote, what in the triangle shirtwaist factory of it all. Like, he wants to padlock them in. And the head guy downstairs, like, girl, we can't do that. That's against fire.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Someone is going to the bank and he sees it as people are trying to escape.

[Patrick Hines]

Means he's looking at, he's reviewing the cameras to see who's leaving early. Like, why would. Who a wants to run a business like that and who wants to work there? I'm sorry that, like, you can't.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Like a fragile man who is insecure and everything is an attack on his ego. That's. That's the kind of person this is.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, I guess so. And oh, and by the way, Lisa Frank is nowhere to be seen. So once she has the kids, she basically works from home all the time.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right. And so of course, the first episode ends with like, we learn all this shitty stuff about James Green. And like, he sits down, oh my God, James is here.

[Patrick Hines]

No, listen, that was a real aha moment for me. Like, I, I gasped when we saw him. I couldn't believe we were going to get it from his perspective.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So when episode two starts, he's like, all the bad stuff is a lie. He's exhausted, he wants a drink. I am the documentary. I'm the real Lisa Frank. I created the monster. Like, sure Jam.

[Patrick Hines]

He's also like, just. It makes me very uncomfortable when people talk to the filmmakers like this. Like, he's very rude to the filmmakers.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Imagine going to dinner with this guy, how he's at a restaurant. No, you know what I mean? So here's the James Green story. He grew up in Detroit. His father was a military guy.

[Tony]

And James, ever since first grade, I've been drawing. So my first grade teacher told my mother I was gonna be an artist. She signed me up for ccs, a very well known art school for advertising design and industrial design. After that, I worked for like the best airbrushing illustrators in the country. And I just kept airbrushing.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

But he started doing airbrushing, which is the style of Lisa Frank.

[Tom]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Which is like, it wasn't that before him. Right. Did he bring that to them?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I think they all sort of had it. Think he was like thriving. At least a Frank, because their, their esthetic was very, very similar.

[Tom]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So he's like opening his own studio. And out of the clear blue sky, Lisa Frank calls him. To this day, he's like, I have no idea how she got my number. I never asked. And I'm like, really? I call bullshit on that.

[Patrick Hines]

Or does it just tell you the level of like, disconnect? They're actually, like, they never actually had a conversation. They never talked to each other.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So weird. Like, the relationship is so weird. And he's the most unreliable narrator. So, like, I don't. That's annoying to me. Documentary that we don't know the truth. Really.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Until later when we're hearing from other people that Lisa Frank, like, totally destroyed their lives.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my God.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

In this dynamic, it's like, I don't really give a shit what James says, because I don't. I don't know.

[Patrick Hines]

And more to his backstory, he says, like, she asked him to come, like, move to Tucson, 1982.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

This is.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

He's like, I had nothing to lose. So he drives down to Tucson. He gets there, but she had already hired somebody else to do the job she hired him to do, so he's pissed. And they decide to have a. Rather than pulling their peens out, they decide to have like an art contest.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

She's like, you know what, never mind. Let's have a contest. And the best logo wins again. Is the story real? I don't know. I have no idea.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, he, according to him, he makes the famous Lisa Frank logo. It's a goddamn good logo.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

The one we know and love. It's beautiful. It's all him.

[Tony]

Yeah, I didn't really have a title, but I was basically the company's first full time artist. But I was more than just an artist. I mean, I created all the sell sheets, the trade show booths. Anything visual and marketing oriented, I did it.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Like, anything visual and marketing related, he did.

[Patrick Hines]

And he's got. I mean, if it's true that this was his idea, he's got good ideas. Like, he's the one who put on the back of the stickers, like, write to us. We want to hear your feedback from our fans. Like, it's all about. Anybody who's listening to this, who wants to start a podcast or anything, but it's all about engagement, engagement, engagement. Like, like, we are such a Strong podcast because we've got such a strong community of listeners that we love and love to engage with. Like, that Stu really works.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And in 1987, you're, like, putting your address on the back of a sticker sheet and telling people to write to you.

[Patrick Hines]

And, like, little girls are writing fan mail. Like. Like, they love it. So would you have written a fan letter?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Sure. I mean, maybe. I probably would have made. Because I was. I wrote a lot of things, and I made a lot of things. I was making cards for people. Like, that was a lot of the stuff that I made. So stickers really came in handy for. Unlike the envelopes and stuff like that. So, yeah, it could have been, I guess, if I was, like, really there in the peak of it.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Because I sort of came along towards the end. And it wasn't just the Lisa Frank stickers. It was, like, stickers for me. It was, like, my hyper fixation at the time. So it was like the Sandy Lyon one. So whatever.

[Patrick Hines]

So Sandy lion is not Lisa Frank?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

No, no, no. It's a totally different brand, but it was, like, part of the major sticker craze.

[Patrick Hines]

I wrote two fan letters in my entire life. One was to Alyssa Milano.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Okay. She went back.

[Patrick Hines]

No. And the other one was to Claire Danes for what shows My so Called Life. My so Called Life and who's the Boss? I was, like, obsessed. Obsessed with both of them.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I love who's the Boss. Who's the Boss is on Hulu. If you ever need a quick 22 minutes, there's a Frank Sinatra episode. That's great.

[Patrick Hines]

I follow Danny Pintaro on the Social. He was Jonathan. And they've been trying to, like. He's been trying to get them to do a reboot for Would that be great?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Oh, God, I fucking love Tony Danzo.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, me too. Did you hear that whole thing when he was, like, a dick on the red carpet? There was, like, a whole thing where he was, like. It was like, on a Broadway red carpet, and some, like, Broadway influencer asked. He was really. You can watch it. He was, like, really rude. And so then, like, the influencer, like, tweeted it or whatever, and then Tony Danza doubled down on being an asshole.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

He didn't apologize.

[Patrick Hines]

No. Which is too bad, because he's like, America's dad. Like, we. Everyone loves Tony Danza.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

He's so cute.

[Patrick Hines]

Cute. I'm gonna give him a pass on this.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. And, like, in who's the Boss? Like, it's funny. Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

It's so good.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It does kind of hold up. Every once in a while, we'll put it on. If I'm like, you're like, cleaning up after dinner.

[Patrick Hines]

Leah Remini was from who's the Boss? Remember that? She was like, Sam's like, model.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Oh, my God. I remember Stacey Carocci from Saved by the Bell.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Anyway, anyway, 1987, James and Lisa clean house. They fire everyone. They start fresh. And that's what a lot of people in the succulent documentary started. So, like, James wants everyone to know, like, shut up, you dumb bitch. Gillian, it's not a sticker company. It's an art company. I'm like, all right, James, I want.

[Patrick Hines]

To see, like, you working for, like, that would be. But you would kill him. You know what I mean?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I just would walk. I would not engage. Yeah, that's the thing. We would never get there because I, like, he would yell at me in my interview and I would just be like, I'm not doing.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm telling you. That is the work environment people were conditioned to believe was normal until. Until five years ago.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's just like, don't yell at me.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I just got here.

[Patrick Hines]

I know. So I like Sandy Lyon better anyway.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah, Seriously, more options. So they went to the school supply business was booming, and it was genius because, like, you'd go down to the school supply aisle and it would be like a whole row of plain folders and Lisa Frank and it's sort of like it's apples and oranges. It's a no brainer.

[Patrick Hines]

And I kept thinking, how did nobody copy them? Like, you know what I mean? It seems like they ran the table for sure.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

They tried to. I'm sure they were sort of like, here's a really glitt. I'm sure there were people trying to do something kind of similar. Lisa Frank esque as much as you could.

[Patrick Hines]

Can't be the only gay seal in town.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

No, look, gay seals for everyone.

[Patrick Hines]

Gay seals for everyone.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Now, at first, James was airbrushing all of the art by hand.

[Tony]

That was so painstakingly hard. So I took this airbrushed look and feel into the computer graphics world. After that, we became unstoppable. I had built an art studio machine. I became president of the Lisa Frank Company in 1992, and I ran the company and I called the shots.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And by 1992, he's the president of Lisa Frank. And it looked and sounded. He's telling us that Lisa Frank drew every single thing and she didn't. But I'm like, who thinks that she's actually doing that.

[Patrick Hines]

And I guess like an 8 year old girl, it's fine. You think that there's this like fancy lady who lives on a cloud who's like making all these stickers. Fine, but let's let them have that fantasy.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It doesn't matter, right?

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, it's just like any adult would understand, like, there's no way this one person is doing all this stuff.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's very weird that they really want us to know that. And I'm like, we know. We know that it takes a whole team to.

[Patrick Hines]

We know James.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Billion dollar corporation run I. I know. Takes a village or whatever. Like, I'm aware there's a team of artists. Like, I got you. Don't worry about it. Like what?

[Patrick Hines]

I love that this is the thing that really made you mad.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Wait, no.

[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian Benzavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian Benzavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian Benzavalli]

So, like, Lisa did sales and she did product development and everyone else did the art. And I'm like, right, it's called Lisa.

[Patrick Hines]

Frank, Inc. And this is what I'm talking about. Like, James describes her as like, loving to be in those meetings. And he says, I couldn't talk to those people. And like, everyone should do the part of the business they're good at. You know what I mean?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

This is a business have ideas and then other people who are good at those ideas make those ideas the reality. And then everyone works together to make the business.

[Patrick Hines]

We're confused about what's confusing.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And I'm like, I know it's a business. What is the problem here? Everyone's too in their feelings.

[Patrick Hines]

Also selling stickers and pencils. Can everyone take a deep breath except for the people on food stamps? You have every right to be insanely right.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

But this whole like, oh my God, like, we have to.

[Patrick Hines]

That was my mom's story, by the way. My mom, the entire time I was growing up, had a full time job making $25,000 a year with four kids and was on food stamps.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Like that was, I mean, that was.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And then you go there for help and they like interrogate you about why you're on, what are you doing wrong, that you're wasting all your money.

[Patrick Hines]

Unless you have grown up in poverty like that, you can't understand the shame. And I could cry talking about it. Like, when I was a kid, I've told this story on the podcast. Before, I would go to the grocery store with my mom and many of my, my friends from high school were like the checkout people, you know, and my mom would go to pay with the food stamps. And before she would leave, like before she would get on the line, I would go wait in the car because I was too embarrassed.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Of course. You know, Yeah, I totally understand.

[Patrick Hines]

Meanwhile, my mom is working 50 hours a week and we barely see her, you know, of course. But still needs food. So I, I'm. If it sounds at all like I'm on anybody but the worker side, I'm not. I'm just saying I worked in environments like this all my life. You know, there was no. I grew up working in kitchens. There's no complaining.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. Right now, James is the bad guy. Girl, we, I think we agree.

[Patrick Hines]

No, I mean, I guess I kind of understand from James's worldview why he gets frustrated eventually. Like, he's like, but I did all the work and I made this company a billion dollar company. And. And he just doesn understand why he's not going to get credit for that. Because you were awful to everybody.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So, like, that's your legacy. Your legacy is not the billion dollar company. Your legacy is how you treated people.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And also, I'm not defending the actions of Lisa Frank that we will learn about. But like, who came up with the rainbow dolphins, right? James, did you or did you execute it? Well.

[Patrick Hines]

Right, but that's what I'm saying.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Where it's like, everyone plays the role here.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So, like, it's not surprising or shocking that it's not Lisa Frank Inc. Run by Lisa Frank alone.

[Patrick Hines]

No.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Everyone is working together to make this happen.

[Patrick Hines]

Also, I know that this is one of those where they couldn't ask for the raise. I'm not saying that to them. I'm just saying today, like, today it's different. Please ask. Please ask for the raise.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. So now we get a little bit more, but not really about this, quote, romantic relationship between Lisa and James. James doesn't want to talk about it.

[Tony]

He's like, there was a time we probably were. There was some love involved, but the interest definitely came from her. It wasn't the kind of relationship that you people are normally used to. You're watching too many movies. Movies, I think. But this wasn't one of those movies. We were having a good time. We were working hard, and then we got married.

[Patrick Hines]

She was the one that wanted it. Not really me.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Now he's got to make it seem like he didn't want anything to do with it. I guess I think this is all bullshit. James did not want kids. He was not excited about his sons. To which I say, what an asshole. They're here now, you dick. Can you just love them anyway?

[Patrick Hines]

He, like, looks into the camera. He's like, never really wanted kids. Didn't really want to be a dad. I do believe he loves his kids and I do believe he was a good dad.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

They asked him, were you excited when your kids were born? And he says, no, I know.

[Patrick Hines]

And I. James girl.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So after the kids, Lisa, we are told, was barely in the office and James was in the office. And people would work there for months without even meeting her, which once again, is normal. It's normal because she would come in when she needed to be there, like for the buyers, right? And I'm like, right, they want to meet Lisa Frank. So Lisa Frank comes in. I'm not.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Again, I'm not defending her. Everyone is acting like we've never been here before, right? And I just.

[Patrick Hines]

But even the people talking to the documentary today is like. I mean, I worked at. I worked at Lisa Frank Inc. For.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Three months, checking in at 9, 9am and leaving a 5.

[Patrick Hines]

No.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

You seeing Calvin Klein in the fucking break room, Cheryl. Probably not.

[Patrick Hines]

No, I know. And like, maybe, I don't know, maybe it's because it is that brand that, like you, it makes you feel, the family feels, and it makes you like you. You think?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

But everyone was mean to everybody. You couldn't feed your kids.

[Patrick Hines]

I know, I know, I know. It doesn't. So everyone seems confused about all the.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Wrong things, like, whatever. So the 90s end. Now it's the 2000s. Culture has changed. And so now the. Because they want to stay on top.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

The company needs to evolve and adapt.

[James Green]

And then Britney Spears was hitting big at that moment.

[Patrick Hines]

I think I did it again. And there was the Spice Ladies or the Spice Women.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

The Spice Girls.

[Patrick Hines]

Spice. The Spice Girls. Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Oh, the Spice Ladies. The Spice Women. They came along.

[Patrick Hines]

He seems like a homosexual to me. He should know better.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And then he's like, ah, yes, the Spice Girls.

[Patrick Hines]

And I'm like, spice Women.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Where am I? Like, does he think it's like the chicks where we can't say the Spice Girls. No one's insulted by Spice Girls, right?

[Patrick Hines]

Spice Ladies.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Don't take the Spice Girls away from me. God.

[Patrick Hines]

He says, the Spice Lady. The Spice Women.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So the men all decide, well, no, we can't do animals anymore. We have to do what they describe as sassy girl characters.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And all the women are like, this is terrible. Why can't we just keep doing what we were doing? Why do we have to go to, like, Pirate Girl and Rockstar Girl? Like, it's. We're. We're not Lisa Frank anymore.

[Patrick Hines]

And this is also, by the way, when the male artists start to be like, ah. James finally understood my vision. He finally knew what I was good at. Infantilizing young girls and, like, could we.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Maybe meet in the middle and make. Make something? Like, we don't have to get rid of the animals for the sassy girl thing. Can we stick with what works and maybe try something?

[Patrick Hines]

You know, the idea was, oh, like just. The thing is, like, just keep making things for eight year olds. Don't grow with them. They're eventually going to outgrow this. But guess what? We've got a population crisis. People are not going to stop having kids. Lots of kids are gonna keep turning eight.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I'm doing my part.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm trying. No, you really are. I' taking one for the team.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Really trying.

[Patrick Hines]

And it's been great.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

When I say happy to do it. Oh, my God, the level of joy it brings me to not have a child.

[Patrick Hines]

I know you did not have to volunteer at your daughter's book fair today the way that I did and the way. And the moms who, like, arrange the book fair are the most amazing women I've ever met. But when I tell you the type.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

A book fairs to be amazing, let that be. Let the record show you know how I feel about.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, no, no, no. I'm just. I'm just sharing my trauma from, like, I was trying to pack the boxes for them at the end of the Book fair. And I wasn' Packing them Exactly right. And the moms were getting very frustrated with me, and I was like, I'm sorry we sent the wrong husband. The wrong husband is here packing the boxes. He was here at work. Daisy. Okay. The truth of the matter is, she wanted me at the book fair because she knew, you know why.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Okay.

[Patrick Hines]

You know why she wanted me at the book fair? Because Steve gave her a budget, and we know that's not a thing with me.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

She's buying books, Steve.

[Patrick Hines]

I know. Well, but she didn't. She bought a Lego set and a painting kit. Okay, yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Creative, sure. Art, yes. We support the arts.

[Patrick Hines]

But I do think it is good. Look, I was. When I was. Was Daisy's age, I got $5 for the book fair, maybe.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So again, James is specific. He's exacting. He wanted everything exactly how he wanted it. And. And because of that, it's not just like, wow, he has a vision. Everyone's on eggshells.

[James Green]

I do think that James had a very creative mind, and I think that he had a vision. But at the same time.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[James Green]

I think that making me redraw something for the fifth time may have, you know, made him in a better mood.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's a totally horrible place.

[Patrick Hines]

Women who've been like Rondi, who've been there in product development from the beginning, aren't allowed to say to him, I. Wrong direction. He's not listening to them.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

No. And they haven't, like, earned it. He's just an asshole.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

He found his true counterpart, his soulmate, in Rhonda Rowlett.

[Patrick Hines]

Say it again, girl.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Rhonda Rowlett. I think. Rowlett. She's the head of hr.

[Patrick Hines]

She is now the enforcer.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Sneaky little fudgeing coward would tell on you to Rhonda, and then she would fire you at times. She wouldn't tell you why.

[Patrick Hines]

No. And she had no problem with this, by the way.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I fired so many people. Like, hundreds of people.

[Patrick Hines]

They're like, can you give us a number? She's like, oh, girl, no, I can't count. Maybe even like, she, like, Rhonda does seem like a normal person, but, like, no, she doesn't.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

She says they ask her about James. He's like, everything he ever did and will do. He's a genius. He's a God. He's a genius. All yesterday, today, tomorrow, genius all the time.

[Patrick Hines]

She.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

That's not a normal response.

[Patrick Hines]

No, no, no, no. That's not a normal response. But, like, she. People who work in HR are heroes to me, but the Ones that have to do the firing or, like, the bidding of the bad people. That's fucked up. Rhonda. But she does seem like she. I don't know. Like, she. She seem love the company. She's working 15 hours a day on the weekdays and then on the weekends. And every holiday but Christmas, she's on.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

A power trip because Philip, the designer, was diabetic.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And now James wants everyone to stay late. Everyone's on food stamps, by the way, their kids. And James has a mansion and a private jet.

[Patrick Hines]

But James wanted, literally, a private jet.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Like, James wanted everyone to stay late, and Philip couldn't.

[James Green]

There was a guy who was a diabetic. They told us we all had to stay super late. And he goes, I can't. We never saw him again. We never saw that guy again.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

He's fired without cause. And Philip is here today, and he's like, yeah. Rhonda wouldn't tell me why I was so excited.

[Patrick Hines]

Rhonda's like, that's a lie. She's saying that never happened, and we never would have fired somebody for whatever. And her point. But this is like, I've seen this happen. I worked corporate jobs where you would see this happen. They would fire somebody for tardiness or they. But really, you know, they're firing them for whatever reason they want to fire them.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It was just. It was a heinous place to work. They called it the Rainbow Gulag. Someone died at work. Someone died.

[Patrick Hines]

I know, I know, I know.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And everyone has to keep working. No grief counseling, no respect.

[Patrick Hines]

He died at his desk.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

James goes, that was weird. Remember when someone died? No empathy, no warmth. I'm like, what the is wrong with you? You're not even sitting now, being like, I was a tyrant. That's. I can't believe what I did at Lisa Frank was also a tyrant. But, like, I was part of it.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm going to go on the record and amend my opinion about Rhonda. Can I take it back, please?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

She's crazy. They're all like, he's crazy and she's crazy. And they saw each other. They were like, oh, my God, this is the real relationship. And later, people are going to think that they're having an affair, and they're both going to deny it.

[Patrick Hines]

And.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I don't know. They seem to get along more than any other thing.

[Patrick Hines]

She's tired all the time. Now she's going to tell us that to her husband, I give a shit. Okay?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Because these employees. Someone died at their desk, and James doesn't care. Even today, he hasn't grown a little bit of empathy in these 40 years. Employees are contemplating suicide.

[James Green]

I had a brother who committed suicide, so that kind of kept me from doing it. I said, I'm not going to put my mother through that or my kids or my wife. I definitely felt like they were trying to break my spirit. I think that was the way they operated, was that they wanted people who took whatever shit they piled on them.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

They're feeling trapped, they're overworked, they're underpaid, they're miserable. And someone's like, it felt like they wanted you to break.

[Tom]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It felt like James was being an asshole to see how far he could go. And I'm like, well, that's sadistic.

[Patrick Hines]

But it's also probably he just didn't care. You know what I mean?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

But he cared. He didn't care. Maybe. But he also cared too much because everyone was paranoid because their phones were tapped and James was reading your emails and then firing people based on the emails.

[Patrick Hines]

And then now, of course, they're saying they didn't do that. Like, Rhonda's like, I didn't have time to read people's emails. I'm like, yes, you did.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

But what would happen is you and I would be emailing.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

You'd get fired for whatever was said.

[Patrick Hines]

And by the way, when email was invented, you would do this. You would email the person next to you in the office. Like, that's like, I remember doing that.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

People still do that. Today I text Mike in the same apartment.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, but I mean, email. You know what I mean? Like, you would. Anyway, the point is just like, people really did have conversations over email.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right. But what I'm going to say is, you and I are emailing. You get fired.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Now they. I don't know why they would come to me and say, you're only here because you didn't respond to what Patrick said.

[Tom]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So, you know.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And you're like, wait, what?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, it's the dear leader thing. Because what would happen is, like, oh, James is coming in today. Barf.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And then this is a business grow.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. But it's also like, I guess they assume these artists are a dime a dozen. Like, they. Like, everyone is expendable.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And then, like, James is erratic. It's unsettling to a lot of people. It's dangerous. One second he'd be fine, the next second he'd be screaming. And this is why the cocaine rumors start.

[Tony]

You don't want to be doing cocaine when you're in a business environment. What are you, an idiot? I mean, you don't do drugs when you're in business world. I mean, I don't.

[Patrick Hines]

You didn't use cocaine?

[Tony]

No, I used cocaine. Everybody's used cocaine in my generation.

[Patrick Hines]

Shit.

[Tony]

I was around it like it was like all over the place.

[Patrick Hines]

No, I totally did that.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

You took cocaine.

[Patrick Hines]

Of course I did. It was the 90s.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Girl behind the camera, you d me. Look at those fucking arms, you idiot. And the director's like, okay, so like, do you think that people maybe made an assumption because you were acting like a maniac? So like, it's not that far fetched for people to be like, maybe he was on cocaine since he was doing it socially anyway. Right. And he's acting like a maniacal nightmare.

[Tom]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

James is like, absolutely not.

[Patrick Hines]

It was definitely not me, you idiot.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Because they're like, well, do you think maybe also they were curious about like your temper, James was. What temper? I don't have a temper. I don't have a temper. I don't have a temper.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Sounds like a fragile man to me.

[Patrick Hines]

This is where I have the note in big, bold, beautiful letters. It's just stickers.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And then he starts excusing his behavior and laughing about it. They're like, can you talk about that time you flipped over the critique table? And he was like, I never did that, but if I did, they totally deserve it because the art sucked.

[Patrick Hines]

And he's like, and they would have thought it was funny.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

No, right? Like, no. Like we're here now, James. Talk about it all.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And you can't do the Lisa Frank documentary. Should talk Lisa Frank. You got to do it all.

[Patrick Hines]

You took the words out of my mouth. He's only here for the part of the shit. Talking of his ex wife.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And he didn't realize that or didn't. Or thought he'd be able to skate around, make his way out of it.

[Patrick Hines]

And these people who sit for these interviews who just have no understanding of what they're going to look like or how they're going to come off, you know, two hundreds.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I just, I got.

[Patrick Hines]

I actually couldn't give you a number. I don't know, it was so many.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Firing people says so because. And he's like complaining now about how hard his job was, trying to excuse his behavior. Rhonda worked 15 hour days plus weekend. She took Christmas off. She walked uphill in the snow both ways.

[Patrick Hines]

I right here. And you fudgeing. Loved it. Say it, say it.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Here's A question. Could you feed your kids?

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Because no one else could.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Were you walking uphill both ways to the welfare line?

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And the food stamps line? Yes or no?

[Patrick Hines]

No. I mean, absolutely not. Neither was Rondi. Like, you know what I mean? Like these.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Like, we're all busy. You're making rainbow folders. I don't want to hear it. I know everyone's stressed out.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Get a grip. Literally nothing is an emergency. Nothing that went on in those four walls of Lisa Frank Inc. Was an actual emergency.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, you want to hear about a real emergency?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

So we're back to Rondi. So Rondi was one of the, like, director product development. She was there, like, forever and ever and ever.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

There's Rondi, who we like Rhonda. We don't. Just to be. I don't want you guys to think that.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my God. Right.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Using them.

[Tom]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

So Rondi says that Lisa and James invited her to go to Toy Fair in New York. That's a huge convention every year. It's a. It's a really big deal. She was really excited to go. And she says the day before, her husband was in a terrible ATV accident. He had broken legs and broken arm, punctured lung. He was in critical care.

[Rondi Rowlett]

So I called Lisa to tell her that, you know, this happened, and I. I couldn't go. And she just. She just started yelling at me, screaming at me, why should I have to stay with him because it was his fault.

[Patrick Hines]

Lisa starts screaming at her, asking why Rondi has to stay when it was her husband's own stupid fucking fault.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And he's in a wheelchair now.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

She's not focusing enough on work.

[Patrick Hines]

So not only does she not go, and Lisa's like, well, you're never gonna get this opportun. When they're back from Toy Fair and the husband is at home in a wheelchair, she's being accused of not focusing enough on her job.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Nothing is that important, especially the rainbow stickers and folders that I love.

[Tom]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

No, nothing. Is that.

[Patrick Hines]

No, I'm like, when I tell you that this is, like, a tiny little snippet of how bad she actually really is.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Because they were saying, like, you know, of course you're thinking, like, any abusive relationship, like, why didn't they leave? Could be a question.

[Patrick Hines]

No, no. I think. Think it's pretty clear.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I think it's. But. Because what I was going to say was that, like, either you're a favorite.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And you'd always sort of hang on to that and chase that dragon of, like, remember that week? They were nice to me. If I could just get back to that, this would be great. Because, remember, when you did good work, they were nice to you, and when they didn't love the work you were doing, they were mean to you.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So they were using that. Throwing that power around, manipulating you.

[Patrick Hines]

And you feel like all of the workers have been saying all along they felt like there wasn't other options for them. Anybody who has any job feels like they are only qualified to do that job. I remember feeling that way when I was trying to get out of my hospitality jobs, and there's literally nothing else I can do.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And so Rondi is like, fudge you and fudge your folders. She leaves and she goes to, like, now adjust to this new life of hers with her husband.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's a total. That changes your life. An accident, like, that happens. And when she leaves, she says, I was free.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, Tony also leaves. He was the one that was saying that he was feeling suicidal, couldn't feed his kids. He says, well, one day he gets called up to Rhonda's office where he's accused of working on freelance projects.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

He can't feed his kids.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. And he said he wasn't. And she says, I don't believe you. And he says, I told her to fuck.

[James Green]

Straight off, I'm cussing James out the whole way out the door, saying, hey, you're welcome to come down and meet me in the parking lot if you want. And everyone else was like, I was told later on that I guess they had called the cops to come.

[Patrick Hines]

Why?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Because you were inviting James to a fight.

[James Green]

Yeah, but I was inviting him. He didn't have to accept, and he didn't wisely.

[Patrick Hines]

I quote, invited James to fight me in the parking lot. I mean, this is crazy. I know. Absolutely.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

But I get it. It's like, you just want to, like, this guy is such a punchable face. And then he's so insufferable. He has a tattoo on his arm that says, blame James. Does that not tell you everything you need to know about.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Just like, that is fudgeing, infuriating.

[Patrick Hines]

I know. I know. Well, by 2005, Lisa and James, their relationship is falling apart.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Now everyone can tell. So people are inviting James to fight in the parking lot. They're quitting in dramatic fashion. But people can also tell that Lisa, Frank and James, it's not going well.

[Tom]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

They'd be fighting, storming out, running out.

[Patrick Hines]

She's like. She's literally calling out his wor work in front of the employees, embarrassing each other. One of them said. And, like, you could tell that he was saying it in the tone of voice he knew her to say. Like, apparently one of the things she says. True to form. True to form. True to form. And you can, like, hear her all through the rainbow gulag, like, please. That you can see from heaven.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

But really. So this is how this episode ends. That they, of course, file for divorce. And if you think it's going to be a nice, easy, sweet sailing situation, boy, are you wrong. This is going to. They're both going to try to make themselves miserable. And also their kids.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Ends with, like, the reminder once again that it's never puppies and rainbows, even when it is literally puppies and rainbows.

[Patrick Hines]

Now, fam, we told you. Part two of this is available right now and ad free at the $5 level on Patreon. It's going to be a regular episode next week. It is. When I tell you that I was riveted for the second part of this, it really, really, really gets crazy. Yeah. Yeah. So that's it. I'm just. I'm just telling you how you can find it.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. So that's next week. That's what you have to look forward to.

[Patrick Hines]

That's what it's going to be. Oh, girl. We did the first part of Lisa. What is it? Glitter and what?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's glitter and green. The Lisa Frank story.

[Patrick Hines]

I keep on calling it, like, glitter and gold, but that should be like the Tanya Harding story.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Oh, yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

You know, it probably is, fam. Don't forget we started a. What's it called?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

A discord.

[Patrick Hines]

We started a discord. I'm in there. Jillian's in there. Everyone's in there. Come hang out. It's a new way to connect. It's a new way to find community. It's a little bit more organized than the face group, but the Facebook group is also still going strong. We are also in there. We'll be every day as well. The Discord is also heavily moderated, just like the Facebook group. So it's a very safe place and it's a super fun place to be. And that's where you can find information on the book club.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. And like everything and everything or anything you want to do, there's going to be channels for every single thing you can imagine.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly. So that's it. So there's a link to that in the show notes and you can also go to the website truecrameassess.com is all there as well. And that's it. We don't have tell you what we're doing next. Cuz, you know.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Cuz, you know. So we'll see you either right now or next week or we'll see you.

[Patrick Hines]

Or whenever or in 25 years from now when you're listening to us for the first time or that. You know what I mean?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Welcome.

[Patrick Hines]

Ain't that wild?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It is wild.

[Patrick Hines]

All right, bye.