419: Perfect World: A Deadly Game

Summary

True Crime Obsessed Podcast
Episode 419: Perfect World: A Deadly Game
Release Date: March 25, 2025

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Introduction to "Perfect World: A Deadly Game"

In episode 419 of True Crime Obsessed, hosts Julian Benzavalli and Patrick Hines delve into the chilling true crime documentary "Perfect World: A Deadly Game" available on Peacock. This two-part documentary explores the dark intersections of online gaming and real-world violence, highlighting how a toxic online environment can precipitate tragic outcomes.

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Overview of the Documentary

"Perfect World: A Deadly Game" chronicles the story of Menhas, an online gamer whose trolling behavior escalates into a deadly plot to murder his family. The documentary examines how Menhas utilized a modified version of the multiplayer online game Perfect World to orchestrate his crimes, leveraging the anonymity and reach of online platforms to conceal his intentions.

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Key Characters

• Nicole (Timestamp 02:44): A 25-year-old criminal justice student from North Carolina, Nicole serves as the primary protagonist. As an introvert who found solace in online gaming, her knowledge and determination are pivotal in unraveling Menhas's plans. Nicole states, "I'm not antisocial, but I come out of my shell on my terms" [03:06].

• John (Timestamp 02:33): A supportive friend aiding Nicole in her investigation. John brings technical expertise, helping to trace Menhas's digital footprints.

• Menhas (Timestamp 13:07): The antagonist whose toxic trolling in the game Perfect World masks his intent to commit familial murders. Describing himself to Nicole and John, Menhas reveals his plan to kill his family members, showcasing a complete lack of remorse.

• Adrian (Timestamp 13:44): A troll from Romania who thrives on harassment and toxicity within the game, making it difficult for Nicole and John to discern genuine threats from mere trolling.

• Austin (Timestamp 16:06): An administrator from Dallas, Texas, who faces challenges enforcing rules within the modified game server. His favoritism towards Menhas complicates efforts to curb Menhas's destructive behavior.

• Junior (Godku) (Timestamp 29:39): A troll from Costa Rica whose seemingly decent demeanor masks underlying negativity. Junior attempts to engage with Menhas, inadvertently facilitating deeper interactions between Menhas and the gaming community.

• Dante (Devonte) (Timestamp 51:07): A player from Minnesota who contacts Canadian authorities in an attempt to locate Menhas, highlighting the challenges of cross-border investigations.

• Dr. Michael Archfield (Timestamp 56:28): A criminal profiler and former Toronto detective who provides expert insights into Menhas's psychological profile during the documentary.

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The Plot Unfolds

Menhas's Trolling and Initial Threats

The documentary begins by introducing Nicole, whose passion for gaming and criminal justice leads her to participate in the Perfect World community. The game, based on Chinese mythology and featuring both cooperative and competitive elements, becomes the backdrop for Menhas's escalating trolling [02:28].

Menhas's behavior shifts from harmless pranks to disturbing threats. At [21:04], he sends graphic photos of dead bodies into the game’s Discord server, initially leading the community to suspect a prank. However, as more images appear, the group realizes the gravity of the situation.

Community's Response and Investigation

Nicole and John, alarmed by the realistic and uncensored images, begin an intensive investigation to verify the authenticity of Menhas's threats. Utilizing reverse image searches and forensic analysis, they determine that the photos are not sourced from any online repository, implying Menhas's direct involvement [24:37].

As the severity of Menhas's actions becomes undeniable, the gaming community forms a makeshift task force, pooling their technical skills to trace his digital footprint. They uncover that Menhas is located in Toronto, narrowing down their search from millions to a specific residential building [37:00]. Despite their efforts, initial attempts to contact Menhas and the police yield frustrating dead ends [41:08].

Police Involvement and Capture

Eventually, through persistent efforts and collaboration with criminal profilers like Dr. Michael Archfield, the community manages to obtain Menhas's genuine IP address, leading authorities to his location [55:29]. Menhas is confronted by the police as he prepares to execute the final phase of his plan. Remarkably, Menhas does not resist arrest, displaying a detached and emotionless demeanor [56:07].

In the aftermath, Menhas is sentenced to 40 years with the possibility of parole, a conclusion that leaves the community grappling with the limitations of online interventions and the complexities of digital anonymity [68:27].

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Key Themes and Insights

1. Toxic Online Environments:
   The documentary underscores how unregulated online spaces can foster toxic behavior, making it challenging to differentiate between genuine threats and malicious trolling. As Adrian reveals, it's easier to harbor ill intentions behind a keyboard [13:19].

2. Community Vigilance and Responsibility:
   Nicole and John exemplify how individuals within a community can take proactive steps to address potential threats. Their dedication highlights the importance of vigilance and the potential for non-traditional actors to contribute to crime prevention [37:33].

3. Challenges of Digital Forensics:
   Tracing an individual through digital means presents significant obstacles, from obtaining accurate IP addresses to navigating jurisdictional boundaries. The documentary illustrates the technical and procedural hurdles faced by both the community and law enforcement [37:20].

4. Psychological Profiles of Perpetrators:
   Insights from criminal profilers reveal the complex motivations and psychological states that drive individuals like Menhas to commit heinous acts. Menhas's lack of remorse and strategic planning showcase the disturbing depth of his malevolence [56:25].

5. Impact on Communities:
   The events leave lasting scars on the gaming community, leading to disillusionment, therapy, and a decline in participation. The tragedy serves as a cautionary tale about the profound impact that online interactions can have on real-world lives [69:15].

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Notable Quotes

• Nicole on her introversion and gaming:
  "I'm not antisocial, but I come out of my shell on my terms." [03:06]

• Julian on the role of "nerds" in saving the day:
  "The nerds are going to save us all." [00:00]

• Menhas revealing his plan:
  "I'm gonna wait by the door. I'm gonna hit him on the head with his crowbar till he passes out, then I'll slit his throat." [37:00]

• Patrick on the emotional toll:
  "Just another manic Monday. Just another manic." [70:37]

• Julian on the desensitization to online horrors:
  "Look at this document and what's real and what's not... We are discovering it as we go." [21:44] (Paraphrased for clarity)

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Conclusion

"Perfect World: A Deadly Game" serves as a stark reminder of the potential dangers lurking within online communities and the critical importance of community vigilance. True Crime Obsessed effectively captures the harrowing journey of Nicole and her team as they strive to prevent a tragedy, highlighting both the possibilities and limitations of digital interventions in real-world crime prevention.

Listeners are left reflecting on the intricate balance between online anonymity and accountability, as well as the profound responsibilities that come with being part of interconnected digital spaces.

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Transcript

[Julian Benzavalli]

The nerds are going to save us all.

[Patrick Hines]

No, Nicole will.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Totally. Nicole the nerd.

[Patrick Hines]

Maybe John. But Nicole's awesome.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Totally. Some of these nerds are not awesome.

[Patrick Hines]

No, like, whatever. Because they're troll. Whatever. We'll get to it. This is horrifying. Are you horrifying?

[Julian Benzavalli]

I mean, this is one of the worst we've done. Hi. Julian Benzavalli.

[Patrick Hines]

Hello. Patrick Hines.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Fam. Are you so excited about our YouTube content? We're doing full episodes on YouTube.

[Patrick Hines]

We are.

[Julian Benzavalli]

So the way this is working, you just go to our YouTube channel. It's True Crime Obsessed on YouTube. The most recent episodes are there as videos. Our entire back catalog has been uploaded as audio videos, kind of. But we're gonna do videos going forward.

[Patrick Hines]

And it's like us on video.

[Julian Benzavalli]

It's not just like video. Aaron's working really hard making these videos for us and Tom. We are. Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Thank you.

[Julian Benzavalli]

You're gonna see a brand new studio on the videos in a couple of weeks. We are redoing this entire setup to make it look cool for YouTube. So that. So the kids will wanna watch.

[Patrick Hines]

There's a hot pink chair involved. Just saying.

[Julian Benzavalli]

So, yeah, just find us on. Join us on Patreon right now. I mean, right now in real life, we're covering Gabby Petito. Who knows where we'll be by the time this comes out.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, we're doing Scamander, we're doing Fox Hollow. We're doing Look Into My Eyes. We're doing lady of the Dunes. Like, Patreon is out of control.

[Julian Benzavalli]

I mean, and the Gabby Petito one in particular is just really, really good.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, it's very victim focused. Her family is there and involved in her friends and so.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yeah, yeah. So just follow the link in the show notes or just go to patreon.com true crime obsessed.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Benzavalli]

What are we talking about today, girl?

[Patrick Hines]

All right, so this is called Perfect World, A Deadly Game. It's on peacock. It's like two 45 minute episodes. So we're doing it. If it's one documentary, I don't know why they split it up into two. It was totally unnecessary. Yeah, it's one documentary.

[Julian Benzavalli]

It's a good documentary. Right? It could have been just like a 90 minute documentary like Peacock. What are you doing.

[Patrick Hines]

Dispatch? I have a friend. He told me that he killed his family and he even sent me pictures. Do you know what city he lives in? No.

[Nicole]

Perfect World is an international multiplayer online game.

[John]

It's quite easy to hide behind the keyboard. This was sometimes very toxic.

[Nicole]

Manheu has had a history of pulling pranks.

[John]

His jokes were getting darker and darker.

[Nicole]

He was pretty much giving us like the murders in real time.

[John]

I just wanted to try and save some of his family.

[Nicole]

We didn't know where he lived. We were all in investigative mode.

[John]

We didn't have much time. We get his location. Someone could call the police.

[Nicole]

We need to stop him from doing this.

[Julian Benzavalli]

So we start in North Carolina. We're meeting Nicole. We Love Nicole. She's 25 years old. She's a criminal justice student. That's kind of important to know.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, she's a self described introvert. She kind of just says, like, I have a pretty simple life. Her words. She says, I stay at home, I apply for jobs, I play my games, I eat, I sleep. And she wants to be clear though. She says I'm not antisocial, but she comes out of her shell on her terms. And I honestly fucking love that for her.

[Julian Benzavalli]

I love that for her too. And we learned that she started online gaming when she was 13 because she like an introvert at school. And she said people weren't really nice to her. And I'm like, I just want to go back again to say, parents, we gotta teach our kids to be nice.

[Patrick Hines]

I know people are awful because she says everybody at school didn't like me and like Nicole. Come on. I'm so sorry.

[Julian Benzavalli]

She's amazing. She's so awesome. She helps solve a murder here. She's a good person. She's. She's like studying criminal justice. Teach your kids to be nice. I found out the other day that at after school soccer, Daisy was the only one that was allowed to play one day. Cause she was the only one that hadn't been trying to talk over the coach.

[Patrick Hines]

What is going on with everybody?

[Julian Benzavalli]

But my point is, Daisy's really sweet. She said one day all the kids were being so mean to the coach.

[Patrick Hines]

That she cried me like we're bullying the teachers now.

[Julian Benzavalli]

I know, I know, but my kid isn't, is all I'm saying.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, that one day she wasn't. One day you're gonna get a letter. It's all gonna happen. I mean, come on. I don't. I don't trust anybody or anything anymore. But Nicole says, at least online, even if people were mean to me, they respected me for being a good player. And we will learn later that Nicole had to pretend that she was male, identifying as she says, to actually maybe get some kind of respect. Like she didn't want anyone to know.

[Julian Benzavalli]

She was no, like playing this online game because she was saying, I really.

[Nicole]

Feel with Perfect World, it was my community. I got really hooked. I would start playing the second that I got out of school and finished my homework and probably wouldn't stop playing until about midnight every day.

[Patrick Hines]

She'd come home, do her homework first.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And then play until midnight because it's.

[Julian Benzavalli]

A place for her not to just, like, disappear into the game. And this game that she's saying, it's a multiplayer online game centered around Chinese mythology, but, like, you could fly and you could fight.

[Patrick Hines]

You could fight in the air, but you could fight in the air. You can look how you want. You can create your own Persona, and then you're working together with people to get through the game. Like, all these rewards. I can totally see how you would get sucked into this.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Especially if you don't have a big social life at school. If you feel like the people, like, are in your real life don't really see you. This is the place where you can go and be whoever you want and.

[Patrick Hines]

You can have a community and you can feel cool because you, like, helped get. Someone says, like, or shiny new gear. Like, you helped the team get this thing. I totally get it. She also says it's easily accessible. It's international. So you're also like, communicating and meeting people all over the world. So. Nicole, I gotcha.

[Julian Benzavalli]

I like, were you ever a gamer?

[Patrick Hines]

I was a gamer. Not these online role playing games, but I grew up with Nintendo and Sega and Mario Kart and so I love gaming. I think it's bullshit that at the end they're gonna try to make it be like, oh, well, he gamed and so he killed. Like, no, we're not gonna do that with the gamers.

[Julian Benzavalli]

No, no, no, no.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm also a voice in Grand Theft Auto 4.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Oh, that's right. Give us the voice again.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, it's like, hey, you dick. Because they stole my. I mean, it was. I had to sort of do voices. Cause like, horrible things happen to women in Grand Theft Auto. Yeah, yeah. So I did that. But it was trend. Was my voice.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Can we hear one? Just one more thing.

[Patrick Hines]

What was. Oh, there was one other one that was like, hey, like a lot of just exclaiming because my car was stolen or I was robbed or I was assaulted in some way.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Do you think that the reason there's more kids playing games all day long now is because it is community based and it's international. Whereas like the Sega, the Nintendo was like, you're just playing by yourself.

[Patrick Hines]

That's the thing. So I don't have a lot of. I don't have any experience with these kinds of games, but I support gaming. I support girls in gaming, for sure. But this is not really my world. No pun intended.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yeah. Mine was just drama club or bust.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Julian Benzavalli]

You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my God. Like, I loved playing video games as a kid. I love.

[Julian Benzavalli]

But if you're doing that, you can't just stare at Christian Palino across the.

[Patrick Hines]

Stage, but you can, like, listen to the newsy soundtrack.

[Julian Benzavalli]

I guess that's true.

[Patrick Hines]

I was listening to, like, the Beastie Boys and, like, show tunes, like I would have.

[Julian Benzavalli]

So we were both having the same gay experience, just from different perspectives.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Or, like, if I was. If I was listening to the music, because the Mario music is great. Mario, I thought you were doing Tetris for a second. I was like, that's different. Don't mess with me. But my dad would say that he would hear me from the other room. Like, whenever I would die as Mario, I'd go like, oh, man. That's like a very visceral memory that he has of.

[Julian Benzavalli]

I can hear Daisy making an exact same sound.

[Patrick Hines]

And sometimes I'll say it now, and Mike's like, there she is playing Super Mario. Travel down the road.

[Julian Benzavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, My favorite thing is the dashboard.

[Julian Benzavalli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Benzavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Benzavalli]

And they'll even try to negotiate lower bills for you. That's my favorite part.

[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Benzavalli]

They automatically scan your bills to find opportunities to save, and then you can ask them to negotiate for you. Like, I don't want to deal with people today. You do it.

[Patrick Hines]

Rocket Money, and they have this new goals feature, and it automatically saves money for you so you don't even have to think about it. So you can pay off your credit card debt, put away money for a house, or just build your savings.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Do they go to work for you too, or what?

[Patrick Hines]

They're getting there. They might be working on that right now, but I'll take this. I'm happy to just not have to deal with any of those.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Anything that helps Organize my life. Like Rocket Money, by the way, has over 5 million users and saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to 740 bucks a year when using all of the app's premium features.

[Patrick Hines]

It's unbelievable.

[Julian Benzavalli]

It's like 740 dol.

[Patrick Hines]

It's about time, I'm gonna say.

[Julian Benzavalli]

I used to say this all the time. That's a lot of vodka.

[Patrick Hines]

It is.

[Julian Benzavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Benzavalli]

That's RocketMoney.com obsessed RocketMoney.com obsessed because we are obsessed.

[Patrick Hines]

We are.

[Julian Benzavalli]

We always have been.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Benzavalli]

We go to Egypt. We meet John. He's a medical student. He started playing when he was 12 for a year and then he stopped. But then he learned you can use a private serv. So apparently they're. Explain this to me.

[Nicole]

If the game is unable or unwilling to provide whatever people want from it, people will make private servers to modify the game.

[Patrick Hines]

They just do it themselves. So it's called like modding or modding.

[Julian Benzavalli]

How do you get into the code of the game, Whatever, any of those words.

[Patrick Hines]

So they modify the game on these private servers and so then it becomes a modified version that some of these people that we're going to meet are the developers of that. So it's kind of like you're just taking it and making it your own. And then it's totally separate because we get a huge on screen text of like anything about them. Modded version of Perfect World has nothing to do and says they do not represent and are entirely unrelated to Perfect World Games LLC or whatever. So it's totally different. It's people being like, I wish I could fly this kind of way. I can't do it in the game. So I'm gonna modify it and you.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Can figure out how to modify it to make it. My God, people are so smart. Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

There used to be a way to do it. I think if you had like an Xbox you could do. I guess playing Halo is the only. Is the closest thing I would get to like working. And I know Halo girly from back in the day. But that was the only.

[Julian Benzavalli]

I think we lost her fam. I. We lost her.

[Patrick Hines]

The only. The only thing I had where I was like playing with a group of people and Mario Kart and Mario Party. Okay.

[Julian Benzavalli]

She's an online. She's a gamer girl.

[Patrick Hines]

She's a girl, but not. I know people take it very seriously. So I'm not trying to, like.

[Julian Benzavalli]

I'm just saying, for those of you who want to know, this is what Christian Pollino looks like.

[Patrick Hines]

Great. So, yeah, I think there used to be a way where you can, like, mod certain other consoles to be able to play, like, old Nintendo games.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, you could do that, too. There's a whole world.

[Julian Benzavalli]

We're still doing this.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, we're still doing it. There's a whole world. It's not perfect. So that's what happened with Perfect World. The modified version was called Void, and it was intended for player versus player combat, which was not possible in the original game.

[Julian Benzavalli]

I said, I have all these notes, and then the community completely makes up the story. Question mark. I am barely following.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. I thought your notes were going to be like. Jillian will take care of it.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Jillian, Really? I don't. If it's not Atari, if we're not playing Pitbull. Pitbull. Pit bull. Pitfall on Atari.

[Patrick Hines]

You lost me. I know what Atari is, but that wasn't my console.

[Julian Benzavalli]

No, it was before your time.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. So in Void, which is like the modded version of Perfect World, it was you versus people. So there's no focus on the story, there's no rewards.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And Nicole says the community completely makes up that server. So it's like they're. They're just. It's a free for all.

[Julian Benzavalli]

You know? What I will never understand is this, like, Roblox thing where you make. You're inventing the world as you go. The kids are obsessed with the Roblox.

[Patrick Hines]

Sure.

[Julian Benzavalli]

And there's another one. I can't think of what it's called, but I'm like, I don't understand these. Like, we are just, like, the world doesn't exist and you're making it. And that is fun somehow. And I'm not knocking it. I get that. It is fun.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. I like a game where I can, like, choose to be Yoshi. Do you know what I mean? I want to.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Daisy is literally just walking around her world inventing animals. So it's like cows and ducks and dogs. It's just all she's doing is inventing animals and then feeding them.

[Patrick Hines]

Great.

[Julian Benzavalli]

I hope this is how this stays.

[Patrick Hines]

I hope so, too. So we meet Maroon. He lives in Israel, and he's one of the creators of this modded version of the game, Perfect World Void. He's a software student.

[Julian Benzavalli]

But the problem with this version, the.

[John]

Main rule in Void was there are no rules. That's what made it Unique. But it allows a bit more toxicity to flow in just fighting with people in chat. It's an online thing where you can just say whatever you want. Like most of them enjoyed toxicity to some degree.

[Julian Benzavalli]

To quote your queen, this is why they can't have nice things.

[Patrick Hines]

No, they can't have nice things. But you know the main rule here is that there are no rules. Like. Okay, right.

[Julian Benzavalli]

We get it. We totally get it.

[Patrick Hines]

You know fight club is making fun of toxic masculinity. Right? Do you guys get that yet?

[Julian Benzavalli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

Have you gotten it yet? So is Wolf of Wall Street.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Every now and then you say it, but they don't get it.

[Patrick Hines]

They're not hearing you aspire to be that they're making fun of you.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

Ok, okay. Making fun of you because you're losers.

[Julian Benzavalli]

But not the gamers. The gamers aren't losers. It's the trolls are the losers.

[Patrick Hines]

The toxic males. Like the guys who are just like, I want to make my own fight club. Like, you're a loser. Did you not get that from the movie? It's like three hours long.

[Julian Benzavalli]

The Fight Club episode of 30 Rock is one of the best. I'm just saying it's a bunch of Broadway act. It's like Carrie Butler and Mary Katherine Garrison and I can almost name them all. Julia. Oh, I. I can't think of the right. But it's a bunch of Broadway actresses in.

[Patrick Hines]

It's like the page program, right? It's the pages I vaguely vague they.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Remember that it's so good.

[Patrick Hines]

But anyway because there are no rules now, like all the toxicity can just flow in. And Maroon admits this. He's like, there are tons of fighting, racism, sexism, homophobia, all the trolls we learn.

[Julian Benzavalli]

And this is the part that I really will never understand. It is the annoying the other players. That is the fun thing for the trolls. They're not there to win. They're not there to do good at the game. They're there just to annoy other people. I will never understand that.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, they keep using the word annoy, but I'm like, you're harassing people and being horrible. So a lot of people enjoy the toxicity and thrived on it. And one of those people is here with us today. His name is Adrian. I hate him. He's a computer analyst in Romania. Certified troll.

[Julian Benzavalli]

He really says some dark shit in this.

[John]

I just join to f around and annoy other players. It's actually quite easier to hide behind the keyboard and just annoy someone that doesn't know who you Are or where you are from.

[Patrick Hines]

I joined around to fuck around and annoy other players. And I'm like, cool, right? As John Oliver would say, cool.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Adrian doesn't strike me as a person who has a lot of friends. You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

Adrian says what we already know about trolls, that it's very. He literally is like, it's very easy to be a nightmare when you're hiding behind a keyboard and no one knows who you are or where you are. I mean, he says as much.

[Julian Benzavalli]

The trolling only works if you find somebody who takes it seriously. So you got the me in there who's just trying to build the world and fight in the air and just, like, trying to play the game. And then Adrian's in my ear, just annoying me. And I would take the troll bait every single time.

[Patrick Hines]

This is why people literally say, don't feed the trolls. Like, all they want is a response.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Don't give it to them.

[Patrick Hines]

Don't give it to them.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Lessons we learn the hard way.

[Patrick Hines]

Stay strong in your silence. I promise you. I promise you it will get you through. Through whatever you're going through, I assure you. Yeah, but also this bullshit, like, kills the vibe. Like, people are trying to play this game and, like, chat and, like, make friends and fly around, and then you have these assholes harassing you. And it's more than annoying. It's like they're being mean and racist and sexist and homophobic and transphobe and every horrible thing you can be just to get a rise out of it.

[Julian Benzavalli]

And all these mods are like, we just kind of. Like, they say in the same breath, like, there are no rules. You can say whatever you want, but if you do, if you're racist, then we're going to kick you out.

[Patrick Hines]

But. Or not, because all these trolls are thriving in this environment because people are just, like, people love to be bold online. And sometimes that can be freeing because Nicole says, like, she presents as a man online, her screen name is masculine. Her character is masculine. When she speaks, they think they're a little boy.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So she's saying, like, being a girl in gaming is hard, which sucks, because girls in gaming are fucking awesome.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

But she's saying that, like, it can be freeing, but she sort of has to protect herself because of this toxic environment that she's in. So Adrian and Alex troll together all the time. They fucking loved it. But the biggest troll of all was men.

[Nicole]

Has he tried to be the funny guy in most situations? As we play together, you have to understand his jokes. Were getting darker and darker over time. Once the administrator Austin, bans Menhouse for racist jokes.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, you keep saying that word funny, and you don't know what the word means.

[Julian Benzavalli]

No. And then we learn that he's being racist. And so now we meet Austin from Dallas, Texas.

[Patrick Hines]

I get it. Oh, is he from Dallas?

[Julian Benzavalli]

Oh, I only said it was Dallas. Cause, like, I recognized that highway arch. And so I don't know if he's Austin from Austin or if he's Austin from Dallas, but it's Austin from Texas is here.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Benzavalli]

And they were both administrators for that void, the sub server or whatever of this game.

[Patrick Hines]

He was a developer for the modified.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Game, and he's also friends with Menhas. So what would happen is Memhas would say something horribly racist. They'd kick him out forever. He'd get banned, and then Menhouse would reach out to him on Discord, would reach out to Austin and be like, girl, let me back in. This is all I have. Please, please, please. And Austin would just let him back in.

[Patrick Hines]

So it's not a ban.

[Julian Benzavalli]

To which I say, then what are the rules for?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, there are.

[Julian Benzavalli]

No.

[Patrick Hines]

Because it's like, like, again, it's just a bunch of people who want this toxic environment, and they're gonna do anything they can to keep it toxic. They want it this way. They kind of like that. It's like the dark horse of the air. You know what I mean? They like that part.

[Julian Benzavalli]

But then they're all shocked when this asshole turns out to be a murderer. They can't stop. You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

Right. And Austin is like, yeah, I showed favoritism. Like, he would be begging me to come back and I would allow it. And I'm like, right, but he's being racist and he's harassing people and he's bullying people and he's ruining everyone's good times.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Right?

[Patrick Hines]

Like, why are we letting Trump?

[Julian Benzavalli]

They just want to fight in the.

[Patrick Hines]

Air and, like, like, shiny new gear for your team. That's fucking rad.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Like, the person who was like, let's just create a game where, like, you're going to win bows and arrows and shields and people are going to fucking love it. And that person, that dork was. Right, right. You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

Totally. Like, I would. I am definitely. I think I've said this before. I'm like, if I had to pick, like, two roads diverged in a wood, and it was like the sci Fi nerd, like the Star Trek nerd or the Lord of the Rings nerd, I'm going Lord of the Rings every time.

[Julian Benzavalli]

No question.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, so that, that is definitely my. I'm like, you can get like bows and arrows and like, you can be an elf like in the woods and ha. With the ents and stuff and like those awesome trees. But Nicole says, yeah, all right. Shut up, Austin.

[Nicole]

He only got the temporary ban because he was a friend. I mean, some of the. That he was saying would get other people permanently banned. And Mentos came back in the game, just acted normal, like nothing had really happened. You know, he's just hanging out with people and just chatting away. And then that changed on July 27th.

[Patrick Hines]

Everything he said was, quote, obscenely fucking racist. Travel down the road.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Back again, girl. Branch Basics is back. Look, most people don't realize that conventional cleaning products are filled with harsh chemicals that do more harm than. Good girl.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. So we're talking about like synthetic fragrances. Parabens. Disgusting. These are lurking.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Don't look on your face at the parabens.

[Patrick Hines]

They're lurking in like your everyday sprays, your wipes, your detergents. They're lurking and I don't like them. They're polluting your air.

[Julian Benzavalli]

And that's why we're talking Branch Basics. They're made from plant and mineral based ingredients. Branch Basics is human safe and biodegradable, making it perfect for families, especially those with babies, kids or pets.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes, it's nice to know that, like, oh, I'm not polluting the air or getting anybody sick or putting parabens in anyone's body, including that little pupper.

[Julian Benzavalli]

And also, I love this. Branch Basics was founded by three women, Marley, Allison and Kelly, Each with transformative personal experiences that inspired their mission to create human safe cleaning products. From overcoming chronic health challenges to discovering the power of toxin free living. That. That's real stuff.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, you know, it's like one concentrate and it replaces dozens of cleaners. Perfect for deep cleans or daily messes, anything in between. So you just have the concentrate and then you put it in the different bottles and then you change the amount of water. It's one concentrate for everything.

[Julian Benzavalli]

That's right. And we like Steve. When he found that out, he became absolutely obsessed.

[Patrick Hines]

It's amazing because then it's like, wait, which is the bathroom? Which is the what? No, they're just labeled. It's all one concentrate. It's all the same thing.

[Julian Benzavalli]

So make this year the year you say goodbye to toxic products.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Right now our listeners get 15% off the premium starter kit by using code [e-mail] that's 15% off your new Branch.

[Julian Benzavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Benzavalli]

So we jumped to July 27, 2019. All of the gamers are online. They're all playing with men. Has. This is where we learn about Discord. Right now we've got a Discord for tco. We promise it's safe and fun and highly moderated. And nobody says anything mean. If they do, they get kicked out forever.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm in it all the time.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Austin is not a moderator of our.

[Patrick Hines]

Discord and never will be.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Never will be. But we learned that the Discord is different from the in game chat. It's not moderated at all.

[Patrick Hines]

It's a separate app entirely.

[Julian Benzavalli]

So a lot of people are playing the game, but then they're in the Discord talking about the gameplay that they're currently doing.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Did I, did I explain that right?

[Patrick Hines]

You nailed it.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Okay, great.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Just to.

[Julian Benzavalli]

I feel like I'm trying to explain basketball. You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, God.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Well, let's not like tennis even, you.

[Patrick Hines]

Know, just so like a visual for Discord. Like, each server, like tco, there's a TCO server and that's what you join. You should totally join it, by the way. We have a lot of fun.

[Julian Benzavalli]

It's really good.

[Patrick Hines]

But then each server essentially has a bunch of chat rooms. So in tco, for example, we have like general true crime, animals and family memes, book club episode discussion, Patreon episode discussion. So that's what this is like. It would be the perfect world Void server and then a whole bunch of different chat rooms within. And that's it. Because, like, you can be on Discord wherever you are in the world. It's an easier way to chat.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yeah, you can also send images. That's an important thing to know.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julian Benzavalli]

So he menhas is in the Discord server saying, today is the day I'm going to kill my parents and go to jail. And then he posts an extremely graphic photo of a dead body. And he says, this is my mom.

[Patrick Hines]

Hey, peacock. This image was not censored enough. And how dare you? And you showed way too many images way too often in this documentary.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Really is so. I know documentarians listening to this and I know some of you do more is not better in this context. In fact, often bad.

[Patrick Hines]

And there was no warning about it. And don't give me the whole like, well, you're watching a True crime documentary. I didn't. I still deserve to know.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

If I'm going to be seeing these horrifying images, which you should not have publicized.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Disgusting. And like, really out of respect to the victims, you know, because all they do is blur her face, but you can see that she is laying in a pool of blood on the floor. And you can see everything but her eyes, nose, and mouth.

[Patrick Hines]

Very much not okay, Peacock.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Not at all.

[Patrick Hines]

Thank you.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So everyone is obviously freaking out because Men has is the biggest troll in the group. He's a fucking terrible person. But they're thinking, like, for a second.

[John]

I thought, okay, it may be real. But I don't know. In my head, I still had to remember that was perfect world, and everyone was just making stuff up.

[Patrick Hines]

This is a prank, right? Like, this can't be real.

[Julian Benzavalli]

No, this is what we mean by this documentary. Could have been one 90 minute documentary, because we get 15 minutes of a round robin of every person saying the same thing. Is it a prank? Is it a hoax?

[Patrick Hines]

I go to bed early because I had work the next day, so I just stopped caring about it. But here's my thing. Even if it was, quote, a prank, it's still a picture of a dead body. And it's not funny.

[Julian Benzavalli]

No.

[Patrick Hines]

And it's fucked up.

[Julian Benzavalli]

And. But this is the kind of thing that you. That I feel like we've been desensitized to come to expect in not our Discord, but in some Discord servers, this is the norm.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, because there was no regulation, right? And the guy who was regulating it kept letting the awful, awful troll back in after a week.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Because in our Discord, we've got Sasha and other. A couple of other awesome moderators. But, like, Discord did not offer us a moderator. Like, if. If ours was unmoderated, you could post anything you want.

[Patrick Hines]

Right? So that's not like, come on now.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Right?

[Patrick Hines]

So, Austin, please.

[Julian Benzavalli]

But also Discord, like just creating this server where people can just go in there and be awful. I mean, like, terrible things happen on Discord.

[Patrick Hines]

It's horrible. Terrible things happen on the Internet completely. So an hour after the photo was posted, Alex the troll says to Men has, hey, I got to hand it to you. You're going to be a legend with this prank.

[Julian Benzavalli]

What?

[Patrick Hines]

A prank, right?

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And Men has. Is like, yeah, I know. That's why I did. Alex the troll takes us as confirmation that it's not real.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Right?

[Patrick Hines]

Because Men has didn't correct him. And now I can see how, like, maybe that could be Interpreted as men. Has, like, confirming this is a prank. It's still disgusting. Well, because it's not a funny prank. You guys don't understand what the words annoying or funny are.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Right?

[Patrick Hines]

Like, what are you saying?

[Julian Benzavalli]

Because he immediately posts a picture of another body and says this one is his grandmother and it's the same carpet.

[Patrick Hines]

And it looks like the same house.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Right. And nobody knows what to believe. Right. And, like, but they're saying if these pictures are legit, he's detailing these murders in real time.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. And now Adrian the troll is not bothered.

[John]

I've seen worse things like decapitations, stuff like that. So just seeing a body with a cut on the neck, it was like, yeah, okay. It's just another dead body.

[Patrick Hines]

Brother.

[Julian Benzavalli]

This guy stinks.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. To him, it's just another dead body. To which I say, adrian's over. I'm not mentioning him for the rest of the documentary. He offers nothing. No, your time. Your time is done.

[Julian Benzavalli]

He says something even worse than that later.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, he's an asshole.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So John and Nicole, our friend Nicole, they're very worried that these photos are real. And they are actually trying to. They are alarmed. They're doing really the only thing you can do when all you know is someone's username on an Internet platform.

[Julian Benzavalli]

And remember, Nicole is a criminal justice major, so she kind of has some idea of places she could go. And everybody knows you can do like a reverse Google image search. That's where she starts.

[Patrick Hines]

And so because she has some experience working with forensics. And so John is like, do you know anything about these wounds? Like, kind of asking her and her expertise. So unfortunately, it is very, very easy to find horrible pictures like this online.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Do not google gore. Just don't Google the word gore.

[Patrick Hines]

The production crew has people Google it in real time. I got it.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Thanks so much. I know it's really, really bad.

[Patrick Hines]

Horrifying. I got up and like, hugged Fiona in the middle of. I know I needed some self care.

[Julian Benzavalli]

This is horrible amount of stuff that is on the Internet.

[Patrick Hines]

Can't talk about it.

[Julian Benzavalli]

You can see. You can literally see.

[Patrick Hines]

It's really. It's something that, like, kicks my intrusive thoughts wide open. Because then I'm thinking about, well, I just can't. I know I can't do it.

[Julian Benzavalli]

We'll move on.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Thank you. To talk about the rest of this horrifying documentary, Nicole is doing a lot of research and she's trying to see if these images appear anywhere else on the Internet because that would mean that this troll found them on the dark web and now he's them to trolls. So, like, yes, they are horrifying, insanely.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Disturbing photos, but we hope they came from somewhere else.

[Patrick Hines]

And he really is like, this is his idea of a prank. Which is still disgusting, but in the best case scenario is that he just got them from some horrible website.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Like, for example, 4chan board.

[Nicole]

B4chan is an image board that allows for discussion. People will typically post an image to shock people. And that's what the random board is for. It's pretty unregulated regulated. So people could just post a picture of a dead body just to see people's reactions to it. And that's why we thought that it.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Was from maybe there you can post literally images of anything.

[Patrick Hines]

You can't.

[Julian Benzavalli]

I know, sorry.

[Patrick Hines]

Why do you want, like, why. What is wrong with you that you, like, want to do that?

[Julian Benzavalli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

And it's. Don't give me the, like, morbid curiosity thing. Don't. Because I don't buy it. Yeah, Like, I just don't. I think there's like, something like, off in you.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Any. Any.

[Patrick Hines]

Am I allowed to say that?

[Julian Benzavalli]

Of course, of course, of course.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, I.

[Julian Benzavalli]

If you are searching out images of beheadings, look into that.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, and thinking it's cool to be so unbothered by these photos that you're seeing in the discord. Like, something. I don't want to know you.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Nicole explains to us that in her line of work in criminal justice, she's had to see pictures of murders and plane crash. There is a world in which these are in a proper setting, educational. I understand that.

[Patrick Hines]

Fine, fine, fine.

[Julian Benzavalli]

If you're a medical examiner and you need to look and know what stab wounds look like or whatever, fine. I totally get that.

[Patrick Hines]

But reason one million. I'm not a medical examiner.

[Julian Benzavalli]

You'd be good at that, though.

[Patrick Hines]

I feel like, oh, I'd be awful at it. Oh, yeah. No, I don't. I'm not. I don't have the gene. I'm missing the, like, strength part of it. Like, I wouldn't be able to separate it. That's why I never was able to actually work with animals. Even though I grew up loving them. Like, I couldn't.

[Julian Benzavalli]

I mean, the idea of, like, being alone within a room with a body.

[Patrick Hines]

They're definitely gonna wake up any second.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Of course they are.

[Patrick Hines]

Even, like.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Of course.

[Patrick Hines]

Even watching something on tv, I'm like, they're gonna open. They're gonna like, jump up and at me.

[Julian Benzavalli]

No, of course.

[Patrick Hines]

Are you Watching that show, the Pit.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yes. I'm obsessed.

[Patrick Hines]

Mike is loving it. I am having trouble because I'm super squeamish.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Well, me too. I've been thinking about you. I didn't think you would like it because it feels procedural way that I didn't imagine you would like.

[Patrick Hines]

But it's a 24 hour or it says 12 hour show.

[Julian Benzavalli]

It's really good.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm not watching it the way Mike is watching it. Mike is like, already watched all the episodes twice. Like, he's super, super into it.

[Julian Benzavalli]

It can be very gory.

[Patrick Hines]

There's one thing with a bug that he told me about. He's like. But he did show me that one scene of that woman talking to the abuser.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Oh, yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

He was like. He was like, you gotta watch this. You're gonna love her. Where was I going with that?

[Julian Benzavalli]

Get in the Facebook group if you're watching the Pit. I want to hear your take on it. It's so good.

[Patrick Hines]

Mike is loving it. And he wasn't an ER guy. He's like, I'm not a medical procedural. Kind of G. Point is, I can't even watch shows like that.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yeah, yeah, I totally get.

[Patrick Hines]

Because I'm either thinking everything is real.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Or the bodies are going to wake up.

[Julian Benzavalli]

What you're saying is the spin off of Julian's Law is not going to be one about you as a medical examiner. Okay, great.

[Patrick Hines]

Although I love Emmy Warner on svu.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Okay, great.

[Patrick Hines]

Awesome.

[Julian Benzavalli]

I love that.

[Patrick Hines]

But she can do it.

[Julian Benzavalli]

But essentially they find nothing. This picture was not taken from anywhere else, which means this picture has to be real. Now, either it's a hoax picture, but this picture comes from this menhas guy.

[Patrick Hines]

And either. Either way, Nicole and John know that this is really dangerous no matter what, because they've seen all the horrible things he's been saying over this like three year span. So. But the thing is, they also don't know anything about this.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

So five hours after the photos were online, Austin calls the police and he's in Texas.

[John]

The lady said, like, you know what time it is? And I guess she thought that I was just joking because I mentioned video game. Like, stop talking to me like that. I'm not joking. This is serious. And I'm like, you want to send someone to my house to check this in my computer? You can. And she's like, no, it's too late right now.

[Patrick Hines]

And she's like, everyone's really sleepy. I'm sure it's fine. Nerd. Go to bed, nerd. And Austin is like, I'm trying. I know, to like, I'm really scared.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Austin from Dallas is like. And we're also going to eventually get on the phone with the cops from the place where this is really happening. And they're so nice. They're awesome. They're so good.

[Patrick Hines]

But the police hang up on Austin.

[Julian Benzavalli]

They really do.

[Patrick Hines]

So now the gamers contact this guy, Junior, aka Godku.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yep, whatever. He lives in Costa Rica. It's 9:30.

[Patrick Hines]

He's a massive troll. And he's. This man has guy's best friend, but they're best friends.

[Julian Benzavalli]

And like, again, they're online trolls. But this, like, Junior guy in real life seems like a decent person.

[Patrick Hines]

But Nicole says he. This Junior guy, he permeates negativity. And I'm like, can we stop? Like, people are just trying to play the game. Like, why is being a dick such a big part of this culture? Are you really scared of girls?

[Julian Benzavalli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

Are you that scared of people having fun?

[Julian Benzavalli]

I don't think Junior's necessarily into girls.

[Patrick Hines]

But why are you a dick?

[Julian Benzavalli]

But, right, like, honestly, you just want.

[Patrick Hines]

To fly around and, like, play the game. I don't understand why being a dick is such a big part of the culture. I'll never get it.

[Julian Benzavalli]

I mean, I guess the bullied people bully is what it comes down to. You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

Really don't. Not all people who are bullied end up being assholes.

[Julian Benzavalli]

That's true. I was bullied. I'm a nice person.

[Patrick Hines]

See? Like, give me a break. I don't subscribe to that.

[Julian Benzavalli]

I agree.

[Patrick Hines]

I know. Hurt people. Hurt people. Whatever.

[Julian Benzavalli]

What else do you got? Another cliche in there.

[Patrick Hines]

Anyway, we're not a monolith.

[Julian Benzavalli]

One more line from Grand Theft Auto 4.

[Patrick Hines]

I'll give you one from surfing. H3O, which is, I think, voted the worst video game ever.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Checkpoint. I played a busty blonde surfer girl, and I was like 14 years old.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Maybe that one actress from that episode To Catch a Predator.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, you brought the condoms, right? I'm just gonna go take all my clothes off. You're like, 40, right? Okay, cool. Cause I'm like, 13. Okay, awesome.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Oh, it's just the greatest hits today.

[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Benzavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Benzavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Benzavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Benzavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Benzavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

And they have it in a lot of sizes, like 21 inch. Whatever you need. A lot of different colors.

[Julian Benzavalli]

They've also got this washable carry on luggage cover. You know how all your carry ons look exactly the same?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Benzavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And you can clean it instead of wiping it down. It's like a washable cover.

[Julian Benzavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

They also have packing cubes. They have a jewelry case, a toiletry bag, and my favorite, the revive nylon camera crossbody. Again, you can take it and look cute in your airport fit.

[Julian Benzavalli]

They do everything. I love the sweaters, the bags, the luggage. Oh my God.

[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Benzavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Benzavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Benzavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Benzavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Benzavalli]

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[Julian Benzavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Benzavalli]

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[Julian Benzavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Benzavalli]

ET so Junior, we learned, had leukemia.

[John]

It was in a bad situation of my life. My parents worked a lot, so I was really, really alone. He just listened. He never made fun of me. He really helped me a lot.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Menhas was, like, really nice. Like, sometimes the trolls can be nice, I guess.

[Patrick Hines]

I guess it must be exhausting, honestly.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Like, I know. I know you're a loser.

[Patrick Hines]

If you're a troll, you're a loser.

[Julian Benzavalli]

You absolutely. But that. That's what brought them together. And this friendship will become kind of important because Junior, like. Like all of these other people, even the other trolls, really try to do the right thing here.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, mostly Nicole, mostly John, but. So Junior is like, hey, everyone's asking about you. Those pictures are fake, right? Like, can you just, like, just level with me? Even if you're trying to do the ultimate troll prank, like, they're fake, right? Like, you. You photoshop them.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Men has comes right back. And he's like, no, girl, I'm sorry to upset you, but I did it. I killed two of my four family members, murdered my granny and my mom, and I' shaking. And. And I'm about to kill my dad and my sister.

[Patrick Hines]

He says, this may upset you. May.

[Julian Benzavalli]

I know, may like, what? Maybe something I lost in translation there and.

[Patrick Hines]

Because in those words, like, everything he's saying is making people think. Like, he. But he didn't do that. Like, it may have set you. Like, you know it's gonna upset me. Why are you saying it like that?

[Julian Benzavalli]

Even I'm still at the point where I'm like, did he. Is this real? Fam, I'm here to tell you it is real.

[Patrick Hines]

It's real.

[Julian Benzavalli]

And not only that, he's laying in wait in his home to kill his sister and his dad, his mom and his grandmother are already dead.

[Patrick Hines]

Y.

[Julian Benzavalli]

This is real. And, like, what's amazing about this documentary is that these online gamers are really trying to stop the next two murders before they.

[Patrick Hines]

And there's, like, a countdown. Yes, there's a clock. They're racing against the clock because we.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Know, like, Menhas knows when his sister and dad are getting home.

[Patrick Hines]

But Junior says to him, okay, enough. The joke is over. Stop calling it a joke.

[Julian Benzavalli]

I know it's not a joke. Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So they have to act fast, though. Now everyone has what they feel is confirmation this is real. He's doing this, and now he's a danger. And we have to maybe save two lives and just get this motherfucker.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Right. Look into the name Menhas. They find out that it's Bengali, but they don't think he lives in Bangladesh.

[Patrick Hines]

And they're like, is that his real name?

[Julian Benzavalli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

Handle like, they don't know nothing.

[Julian Benzavalli]

And they're looking, like, on all the social media platforms, they can't find anything that looks even remotely like it even could be this guy.

[Patrick Hines]

So they go back into the chat and they start looking at old messages and they're trying to see if he sprinkled in any information. So here's what we learned based on everyone kind of going back in the chat history. He lives with his parents. He lived in their basement. He had a sister. He's studying engineering.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

And based. They were able to figure out, we.

[Nicole]

Had reason to believe that he was in Eastern time zone. Whenever he would say that he was going to be back at a certain time, it was always an est. But he could have been the east coast of America or eastern and Central Canada, even South America.

[Julian Benzavalli]

But that could be as far south as, you know, South America. Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

It's like eastern US Eastern Central Canada and parts of South America and the Caribbean. So they're like, okay, right.

[Julian Benzavalli]

It doesn't really narrow it down. Now he's like, they've got an hour to figure this out.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. So he also mentions Canada.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

So he says, oh, you know, you can't blame me. Winters in Canada, no one wants to go out. Or meanwhile, there's just goose poop at the Canada beaches. So they're like, okay, still narrowing it down.

[Julian Benzavalli]

But they realize now that through the void server, they might be able to get his IP address.

[Patrick Hines]

Because some of the people who are helping us, like John, are. He's one of the programmers and moderators. So he can go into the back end and find that information.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yeah. Which is kind of like, oh, my God. Like, that's. I mean, these nerds are amazing. They're amazing nerds. I married a nerd. I love. I love the nerds. The nerds will save us all.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Benzavalli]

But these nerds find it. They find his IP address in Toronto and they're like, well, that's great. But now it kind of narrows it down from 7 billion people to 6.3 million people.

[Patrick Hines]

A needle in a haystack.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Right? Because, like, the way IP addresses work in this case, it's not giving you, like, the address of the home where this computer is.

[Patrick Hines]

It's just some IP address, and we don't even know what it's for just yet.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So now Junior's job is to keep the killer talking.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Don't let him know we're tracking his ip. Just get him to talk. Maybe he'll give a hint or a clue that we can use. But don't make him panic. Like, don't let him know we're onto him.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Just think about what's happening. These people are all over the world. The killers in Toronto, you know, Nicole is in North Carolina. They're in Israel. They're in Egypt. They're in. They're everywhere. They're in Bucharest or whatever. Like, they're working together in a little group chat, trying to. Like, they're all in different times. This is incredible. What is going on?

[Patrick Hines]

So now Junior saying, I was trying.

[John]

To get him to talk about anything. He tells me, go to bed, bro. I tell him, no, not leaving you alone. I was still worried about my friend. I told him, bro, I really want to help you.

[Patrick Hines]

Let me help you. You don't have to do this. Like, really trying to sort of negotiate with him, talk him off the ledge.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And the killer is like, there's nothing left to do. My sister comes home in five minutes. But then he's now playing the game. They can see him active in the game.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Like, he left the game. He had said, like, brb literally went and killed his mother and his grandmother, then was, like, in the chat with Junior, then comes back into the game, waiting for his sister and dad to come home.

[Patrick Hines]

And Austin's like, this is kind of great, because now I can see his current IP address as he's playing. And maybe this is a good thing. If it's different, maybe we can sort of narrow it down.

[Julian Benzavalli]

And it is. They literally. They get an actual street address. Is Bloor street in Toronto.

[Patrick Hines]

And now he posts the address in, like, the secret chat. Like, the. Go, go, go. Let's get him chat.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Can I just say, there's something about Toronto. Toronto's where the killer from Don't f. With cats lived, too.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, God.

[Julian Benzavalli]

What's going on in Toronto?

[Patrick Hines]

I like Toronto.

[Julian Benzavalli]

I love. We had a great time in Toronto. Toronto is a beautiful city. We're not holding this against you, Toronto, but you got a lot of serial killers to. At least I know.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my God.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Creepy.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, says like the New Yorker.

[Julian Benzavalli]

We're how many blocks in the Times Square? Hotel with that guy. I mean, honest to God, honestly, Toronto? We're not talking shit, girl.

[Patrick Hines]

No, I mean, we all live on Earth, right?

[Julian Benzavalli]

And I would move to Toronto in five seconds if you'd have me.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, you know, we're pretty full of bad guys on this planet. That's why I'm starting my own with women. So. Bye.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Bye. We know you're not sending for us.

[Patrick Hines]

Bye, everybody.

[Julian Benzavalli]

We'll miss you. Will you miss us?

[Patrick Hines]

Not really.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Okay, bye.

[Patrick Hines]

It's gonna be so great.

[Julian Benzavalli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

It's gonna look like Mario Kart Island.

[Julian Benzavalli]

It's just gon Live like you want to be sent for. Live like you want to be sent for.

[Patrick Hines]

Every day is just the day.

[Julian Benzavalli]

It's probably not the day yet, is it?

[Patrick Hines]

Maybe try better the next day.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Okay. All right, I'm going to keep trying.

[Patrick Hines]

They'll force you to, like every day. Everyone will start to be better.

[Julian Benzavalli]

What if our planet ends up being better than yours?

[Patrick Hines]

Well, isn't that great? Now we have two great planets. Everybody wins.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Everybody wins.

[Patrick Hines]

So they finally.

[Julian Benzavalli]

You know what? We don't even want to come back. We're good.

[Patrick Hines]

Okay.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Everyone's gay up here now.

[Patrick Hines]

So they get this address. They find his apartment building, but they don't know the apartment number. It's just like this giant residential building with a lot of tenants, which is.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Crazy to see an image of it.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Because you're like, whoa. Like, I mean, like, they narrowed it down from the entire world to this building. Like, you did it.

[Patrick Hines]

It's just like a building. So they call the number, no one answers. They call the landlord, no one answers, right? Then we hear the voicemail, like, thank you for calling the Rogers Campus store at Bloor Street East. We are located at the southeast corner.

[Nicole]

And we were desperate to get somebody to stop him from killing his sister. But what we got was a message. We knew that the IP address that we had found was connected to his service provider and not to his physical address.

[Patrick Hines]

Fuck.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Right?

[Patrick Hines]

The IP address is connected to the service provider, not his physical address.

[Julian Benzavalli]

They literally got the number of the place that, like, AT&T that gave them the router.

[Patrick Hines]

Right?

[Julian Benzavalli]

You know what I mean? Like, that's what it is.

[Patrick Hines]

And they're like, shit. So it kind of feels like another dead end. And now they have to start over, right?

[Julian Benzavalli]

And they've got, like, 25 minutes to do it.

[Patrick Hines]

And his sister is coming home any minute. And then the killer goes back in the chat and says, brb and logs out. And that's how the first episode ends.

[Julian Benzavalli]

So part two. He's been offline for a little while. Everyone is panicking. He comes back online and he's talking to John again. And he says, my sister just came. This is awful. This is really, really bad. If, like, you want to jump ahead 10 seconds, I go right ahead and do it. He says, my sister just came home. Maybe 15 seconds. It was a tough battle. She is a trooper.

[Patrick Hines]

I. I mean, just watching this and hearing this and talking about it is making me feel so sad and anxious.

[Julian Benzavalli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

And I can't even imagine what Nicole and these people were feeling in real time. Knowing that, like, you're knowing it's happening and you're literally a world away, and you can't. Like, I feel like I know.

[Julian Benzavalli]

And the thing is, you know, the police won't believe you. Like, like, you. You know, there's no. There's no one you can even call. Cause the cops won't believe you, and.

[Patrick Hines]

You don't know who this guy is. Like, they ask you all these questions on the phone and, like, you can't answer it. Like, I would just feel like. Like my mouth would be dry and I'd be shaking. Like, I just can't imagine what that would be like, to feel so helpless like that.

[Julian Benzavalli]

I don't mean this as a joke at all. I can't believe you haven't been in a situation like this. I don't know. What do you mean? It just seems to me like a thing that you would be so good at solving. You know what I mean? Like, in real time, like preventing a murder from happening. I've seen this witch recover files from a computer that are just gone. That are just gone. She, like, sits down and does it, and it's back in five seconds.

[Patrick Hines]

It's never gone if it's on the Internet or in a computer.

[Julian Benzavalli]

And I meant witch in the best way possible. The way of course, I take it.

[Patrick Hines]

I swear, like a badge.

[Julian Benzavalli]

But I'm just saying that, like, I could see you being good at maybe this is the thing. We were talking in another, in one of the after parties about how you can contribute. Like, maybe it's this. Maybe I'm serious.

[Patrick Hines]

Maybe.

[Julian Benzavalli]

So John says people in the group.

[John]

Chat, they were trying to collect information we could to give to the police. We were actively trying to get info from him. So I asked Manha to send pictures to get more information.

[Julian Benzavalli]

We need to know if this is real, but we also need to, like, John is, like, send a picture of that. Send a picture of the Weapon set him. He's trying to get as much information as he can, thinking that that might be able to help them find him.

[Patrick Hines]

And I think they're trying to play it cool. I think they're like, hahaha, that's so great. We want to see.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

This guy. To give them information.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So they. And when they ask him to send the pics, he's like, promise you won't stitch. They're like, nope, send it over the.

[Julian Benzavalli]

BTK of it all. I know. Remember, BTK sent the disc. And he's like, you guys won't be able to open the disc if I send it. Right.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, what do you do? And you're just like, okay, I don't want to look at this. I. I know it's real, but I need it for the cops. Like, you're just in an impossible situation that these. All these people wanted to do was play their game and, like, find community and have a little bit of an escape, and now they're doing this.

[Julian Benzavalli]

I know. And you know what? You got to gird your loins and just do it. I'm sorry. I hate to be that guy.

[Patrick Hines]

But, like, people are dying every minute. Like, what? The fog.

[Julian Benzavalli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

So tragic. So he keeps sending pictures. And even now, as Nicole is telling us about it, she's crying because she's like. It was. There was so much to unpack.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

And trying to focus on doing the right thing, but also like, having what the right thing entails.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So horrifying.

[Julian Benzavalli]

And everyone is saying that, like, this girl, the sister fought for her life for 10 minutes and it was bloody and awful. And he's sending pictures of it. It's just terrible.

[Patrick Hines]

And everyone is disgusted and they're scared and they're freaking out and they're like, starting to put pieces together. Like, he was waiting for his sister. He was waiting for her, and now.

[Julian Benzavalli]

He'S waiting for his dad. The dad is the only one left. And he says the dad is going to be home in an hour and then it will be finished.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, this guy is killing his whole family and taunting. Taunting these gamers.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

It's just. It's actually of a horror movie. Travel down the road.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Back again, girl. Life has been a little crazy lately. And I'll tell you the one thing that helps me unwind. It's cornbread hemps. CBD gummies.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. I am really excited about that because I've kind of tried everything.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And so this is really nice that the cornbread CBD gummies are helping Me.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Well, get this. Cornbread hemp CBD gummies are made to help you feel better, whether it's stress, discomfort, or just needing a little relaxation. Or just needing your kid to go to bed on time.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Or that. Or just once they're in bed. Says you. Just a little quiet time.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Totally.

[Patrick Hines]

A little bit of quiet time. They also only use the best part of the hemp plant. The flower.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

So they get the purest and most potent cbd.

[Julian Benzavalli]

And listen, these gummies are formulated to help relieve discomfort, stress, and sleeplessness. I will say I do find it hard to sleep when I'm stressed out. The cornbread gummies have made a huge difference.

[Patrick Hines]

And you're not groggy or hung over the next day, which is the most important part.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Million you, like, jump out of bed.

[Patrick Hines]

It's like, well, I can't be knocked out for two days.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Totally.

[Patrick Hines]

That's why I kind of stopped taking those other things that would, like, help you fall asleep or whatever. Because I'd wake up and be like, what is the point? I'd rather be the different kind of tired from not sleeping. That like the drugged kind of tired and hungover.

[Julian Benzavalli]

I totally agree. So right now, TCO listeners can save 30% off their first order. Just head to cornbread hemp.com TCO and use code TCO at checkout.

[Patrick Hines]

That's cornbread hemp.com TCOand use code TCO.

[Julian Benzavalli]

We love it.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, they're using the flower.

[Julian Benzavalli]

So Men has sends John a picture of a crowbar and a bloody knife. Now, this bloody knife photo is so, so awful. If you are watching. If you do watch the documentary, skip this part.

[Patrick Hines]

It's really bad.

[Julian Benzavalli]

He holds the bloody knife up next to his face and it looks like a movie prop. That's how. That's how bloody it looks.

[Patrick Hines]

It's horrifying. It's really, really horrible. And there's no remorse because then he sends a goddamn damn selfie.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

And like, also, can you blur his fucking face out? I don't want to see this.

[Julian Benzavalli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

Shit. He's an evil murderer.

[Julian Benzavalli]

And he's telling John that he. That menhas is going to send all of the pictures of the bodies and the knives and all of the damage he did to his entire friends list as soon as he kills his dad.

[Patrick Hines]

But there's no remorse. He's almost proud. Like, there's just like dead eyes. Like, like nothing.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yeah. And John is just trying to keep.

[Patrick Hines]

Him talking because that's really, I guess, what they can do right now. As much information as possible and keep him occupied.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Because.

[Patrick Hines]

Because his dad is gonna be home in 30 minutes.

[Julian Benzavalli]

And the reason he's saying he has to kill his dad is he told.

[John]

Me that he's just a person in a one billion to one circumstance. He told me that he needs to end his dad's life so he doesn't suffer knowing he raised a son who killed his entire family.

[Julian Benzavalli]

So he doesn't spend the rest of his life knowing he raised a son who killed his entire family.

[Patrick Hines]

So he wants to, like, protect his dad because he killed all the women.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Like, oh my God. Like this. This is so off the rails.

[Patrick Hines]

And John says that he's actively trying to talk the killer out of this to, quote, appeal killer's morality. I'm like, I think it's clear he doesn't have any. But I understand, like, you do what you have to do. You try everything.

[Julian Benzavalli]

I mean, like, you're learning in real time how, like you just said, how you. How you would react in a situation.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, and like what a hostage negotiator deals with or something. Like, just try. You're trying everything. Everything. So John starts asking him about his mental health and he's like, what kind of, do you have any, like, issues? Like, do you have any mental disorders? Like, what's going on? The killer's like, I don't think I have any. Like, I think I'm all good.

[Julian Benzavalli]

I'm great.

[Patrick Hines]

And like that combined with like, you see the selfie he took and then you're just like, oh my God, that house is like a house of horrors.

[Julian Benzavalli]

And now there's like three bodies in that house.

[Patrick Hines]

And now the killer gets wind that John has been sharing the photos with Nicole and like this kind of select group that's trying to stop the killer, right? And he gets mad and stops responding to John. I'm like, who the fuck ratted on John? Because we were trying to make something happen here.

[Julian Benzavalli]

The only ratting on John and the only good thing to come out of this is that he stops talking to John. But at 10:42pm Texas time, men has video calls Austin. Yeah, they've never spoken on the phone before. Like, he just video calls him.

[Patrick Hines]

That you can do through discord.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Through discord, right? And Austin is saying, he called me.

[John]

The first thing I saw his face was just no emotions, straight face. His eyes were like. I don't know. It's like he didn't have anything inside him. He's talking like a robot. Like, hello, brother. This is the knife I used he's.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Showing him the bodies. Like, it's very clear that this is all real and all happening in real time.

[Patrick Hines]

And it's like, so now it's been an hour and the gamers are like, oh, my God, his dad is about to be home. Like, what do we do? Is this guy online? Like, And I'm just thinking, like, just call the cops again. I know, I know they hung up on him before, but just keep calling.

[Julian Benzavalli]

But you don't even know where. Like, we don't even know where, you know.

[Patrick Hines]

Toronto, I guess.

[Julian Benzavalli]

I guess. Menhas tells John that he's got a plan for the dad. He says, I'm gonna. I'm gonna wait by the door. I'm gonna hit him on the head with his crowbar till he passes out, then I'll slit his throat. And he says, I'm nervous. If he catches me first, I don't think I'll be able to kill him.

[Patrick Hines]

The thing is, I kind of coming into this recording, I wanted to, like, actively skip this part. And then I'm thinking about now. When you hear how this piece of shit acts and what he says and what his, like, excuses are.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

It's important to know how evil he is and how he tries to talk himself out of it, you know, and.

[Julian Benzavalli]

How he justified to himself.

[Patrick Hines]

So at first I was like, this is too salacious. I don't want to talk about it. Like, I don't want us to. To get into the gore of. For gore's sake. But it's not.

[Julian Benzavalli]

No.

[Patrick Hines]

Because of what the shit he pulls later.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yeah. So 11:58, Texas time MEMHAs finally sends John a picture of his murdered father. He did it. They're too late. He's killed every member of his family.

[Patrick Hines]

And so John, in a panic, sends a group message to everyone on the server. So we're out of the private group chat with Nicole and the helpers.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Now we're to everybody. And he's like, if there's someone here in Canada, contact me right now. You need to get in touch with Canadian police. And I'm like, I'm sorry. Anyone could have done that at any time.

[Julian Benzavalli]

I know, I know, I know.

[Patrick Hines]

I know what I would have been thinking. I understand that I probably wouldn't even know my own name.

[Julian Benzavalli]

No. But the funny, like, funny in air.

[Nicole]

Quote, somebody remembered that there's a player named Dante who lives in Minnesota who might be able to help us. Dante, also known as devonte, he was friends with Menhas since Minnesota was far closer to Toronto than Any of us were. We got into contact with him.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Minnesota. That's close enough.

[Patrick Hines]

That's close enough.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Close enough to Canada.

[Patrick Hines]

And I'm like, not really. Google Maps says it's a 17 hour drive and North Carolina is 14. We're scrambling here. And God knows I would be the same way. I'd be like, is there anyone in Tahiti that's close to Canada? Right.

[Julian Benzavalli]

But it's also like, what's the difference between a person living in Canada and a person just calling Canada? Just call Canada.

[Patrick Hines]

I think this is really a study and what panic does and what like a weird group mentality of like, how, like, can I teleport there? I honestly wouldn't be surprised if one of these, like, genius developers was like, I'm just going to write a program. I'm going to write a program and get us to Canada right now. I'm going to make it so that Discord travels through time and space and we can get to Canada.

[Julian Benzavalli]

But the thing that we just.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm not saying that is a joke.

[Julian Benzavalli]

No, I know. It's just like everyone is a human being. It's like, you call the Toronto police, like, how many precincts are there? Probably 8,000. And like, no one's going to be.

[Patrick Hines]

You know, like, it's just we're panicking.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Unstoppable. And kind of the thing that really sucks that Men has got what he wanted, which was an audience for the murders.

[Patrick Hines]

That's it.

[Julian Benzavalli]

You know what I mean? Like, they were never going to be able to stop it. They were. They probably got way closer than Men has even thought they would get.

[Patrick Hines]

And he knew that he was going to get caught because he was saying to John, like, don't rat on me. I don't want to get caught. Too early. He knew he was going to be caught.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So Dante calls the St. Paul police.

[Julian Benzavalli]

We hear the call. The dispatcher basically is like, girl, I'm giving you the number for Canada.

[Patrick Hines]

And then we talk to Canada.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Okay. She's amazing.

[Patrick Hines]

She's so nice. But it's like the 911 call is so frustrating because Dante's like, do you know whereabouts in the city he lives? Like, Toronto is a really big place. Yeah. All I have is a name. Could you tell if it's his family? Like, do you know his family? No, I don't know his family.

[Julian Benzavalli]

She's asking all the right questions and.

[Patrick Hines]

All of the answers are like, I don't know. I think it's this. All I know is from Discord and the poor Kid is just like, I'm just trying to help, but, like, I know how frustrating this sounds, but this is all. I know.

[Julian Benzavalli]

But can I tell you the thing that is so amazing? Like, tell me that you're not calling America for a thousand dollars. Alec, at the end of the call. Is it. Is it Alex?

[Patrick Hines]

Alex?

[Julian Benzavalli]

Oh, my God. It's not Alec. Alex Trebek. Alex Trebek.

[Patrick Hines]

Alex Trebek. Are we sure? I'm positive.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Alex Trebek. No, you're right.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Steve was on Jeopardy. And I didn't know that.

[Patrick Hines]

I know, but we can't talk about that.

[Julian Benzavalli]

We can't talk.

[Patrick Hines]

We've tried to talk about it.

[Julian Benzavalli]

I know, I know.

[Patrick Hines]

We dip, like our toe in the water, and then you're like, never mind.

[Julian Benzavalli]

We can't talk about it, but sweet. Dispatcher says to Dante before getting off the phone, and, are you okay?

[Patrick Hines]

Do you need someone to come check on you or. No, I'm okay. Okay. I'm kind of just shocked. So we're gonna do our best to find this guy, but I'm just not sure how we're gonna track this person down. We're gonna do our best, though. Okay. Okay. I don't know how we're gonna do this, but we're gonna try.

[Julian Benzavalli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

It's very sweet.

[Julian Benzavalli]

She was a Canada, we love you.

[Patrick Hines]

Because she's like, oh, my God, this is horrifying. I totally understand. Like, she's just, like. She just believed this person.

[Julian Benzavalli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

Imagine that.

[Julian Benzavalli]

And maybe that's why the. The serial killers go to Toronto. Nice here to care. They're too nice here to, like, to do anything about this.

[Patrick Hines]

Not on this.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Not on this lady's watch. Susan was like, we're sending you help, Dante.

[Patrick Hines]

I know we. I know you say you don't want it, but we're going to send it.

[Julian Benzavalli]

And I know it's 17 hours away in North Carolina is closer, but we're still sending it. God damn it.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, what a fudgeing mess.

[Julian Benzavalli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

So Dr. Michael Archfield is here. He's a criminal profiler and former Toronto detective, and he's a current professor of criminology. So, yeah, he knows his stuff. But the police immediately contact Discord, and they're asking for information about the killer's account. And Discord actually gets back to them.

[Julian Benzavalli]

But Discord sends them, like, an automated email saying, will get back to you within a half hour. And that doesn't fudgeing happen?

[Patrick Hines]

It doesn't happen. But I'm also shocked because usually online forums do not Help you? Yeah, it is for those like unregulated online forums.

[Julian Benzavalli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

No way to get information about anyone, no matter how many times they threaten you.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Right? Totally.

[Patrick Hines]

So hours are going by. The gamers don't know what's going on. The police obviously aren't keeping them up to date because they are at work.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Discord hasn't responded to police, so thanks a fudgeing lot. But the next day Discord finally responds, but they just end up sending the cops the same information that the gamers had.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Which I'm just like, we had this information 24 hours ago. Like just use that information.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Because when they do call the place of that IP address this time they.

[Patrick Hines]

Answer the phone, it's the service provider.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Right. And the service provider is able to give the actual IP address of Menhas computer.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Julian Benzavalli]

So this is helpful.

[Patrick Hines]

But like, so of course the gamers couldn't get that, but the cops could.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Right? Which I just wanted to point out that the gamers like did a. Like they got around Discord's bullshit.

[Patrick Hines]

Like they were able to themselves.

[Julian Benzavalli]

It was incredible because they were the.

[Patrick Hines]

Mods and they developed it themselves.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

That's why then the cops are just dispatched and we're in a go, go, go, go, go situation. They go and like before we know it, we're at the killer's house, right?

[Julian Benzavalli]

And like it's wild because I just imagined this would be a suicide situation. That like the cops are coming and he's gonna die by suicide. No, he lets the cops in. He's super helpful, he's super nice.

[Patrick Hines]

He's peering out the window when they arrived and he messages the gamers, the police are here, bye.

[Julian Benzavalli]

And I thought that meant suicide, but no, I mean bye, I have to go open the door for the house.

[Patrick Hines]

Because he had nothing else in him. It just felt like it was a. It was like a full on family annihilator situation. He was also killing himself.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Right? Exactly. And so he opens the door for the cops. One cops goes into one of the upstairs bedrooms and finds the massacre of all of the family members. And like they're all there. They take him into custody and that's that. He doesn't fight it at all?

[Patrick Hines]

No. They say they use the word massacre. They say it's a grisly scene.

[Julian Benzavalli]

He was very nonchalant.

[John]

He had no emotions, no remorse, nothing. Boy, not a typical murder suspect.

[Patrick Hines]

The officer asked Minhas, who do you live here with? Minhas indicated my family. The officer asked him, are they okay? Manha replied, you'll see.

[Julian Benzavalli]

You'll see.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, evil.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Evil.

[Patrick Hines]

True evil.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Now he's arrested. The gamers have the article. They're circulating it.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And now we see him in the back of the cop car. I know he is complete, almost bothered. Yeah, he's annoyed.

[Julian Benzavalli]

I mean, he doesn't have a speck of blood on him, which I find curious.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, he probably changed his clothes.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Then showered or whatever.

[Patrick Hines]

They got there, like, as he, like, sat and waited for the police. Because he didn't run, Right? He waited for the cops. He's refusing a lawyer. They ask him again, tell me, you're not in America, like, several times. Are you sure you don't want a lawyer? And he's like, I'm cool. I don't want a lawyer.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Also, the sound of his voice, he just sounds like a little pipsqueak. He's like. It's like the taking the mask off of, like, the Zodiac Killer when we finally found. You're not scary, you're just like a little twerp.

[Patrick Hines]

But you're like an evil fucking person who did this. And so the cops know it's not a question, right? Like, we know he did it. There are so many photos. But the question is, why? Why did he do this?

[Julian Benzavalli]

And we see him in the interrogation, and he's more than happy to admit that he. But when they ask him any questions about the circumstances. Why did you do it? Was it premeditated? When did you start thinking about this? He refuses to answer.

[Patrick Hines]

He refuses to answer. And then he starts giving attitude.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Right?

[Patrick Hines]

Because they're asking him to identify the bodies in the photos, and he's like, I don't know. Why don't you do your job?

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yeah, right.

[Patrick Hines]

Excuse me.

[Julian Benzavalli]

And, you know, our expert is here to say to us that this is all part of the game to him, that this is all part of the narcissism that comes along with being a family annihilator. That it's all about playing cat and mouse with the cops, being nice enough, but then not answering their questions, just keep getting them to ask more questions.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, he's bored. And then he's cocky and he's almost having fun, and he's not asking for a lawyer. But then he's like, I'm going to remain silent about that, and I will never understand.

[Julian Benzavalli]

I mean, I know that it is an acquired skill, but how these people sit across the table from the family annihilator who killed their family for no. And you don't just strangle them. You don't just like, how do you not attack these people?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Benzavalli]

And how do you, like, sit across from Chris Watts, who just killed his children and his wife and not beat the living shit out of him and.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, weirdly match this guy's energy?

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

That is very. Again, like, just no emotion, nothing. And the way they're speaking, speaking to him is almost like chipper.

[Julian Benzavalli]

And I know the answer is by, the answer is just by being great at your job.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. I mean, you have to be that way. You can't give them anything.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Right. But I, I, this is yet again proving that this would not be a job that I would excel in.

[Patrick Hines]

No, you can't give them anything. It's all they want.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

It's all they want. Even now, like, the way he's sitting in the corner kind of with his arms folded, like, laying back, he wants them to sort of be like, what you did was a horrible thing.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

You can't say that to them. Cause it's still giving them the attention they want. So it turns out, though, we're back with the gamers on the Discord.

[Nicole]

He'd been dropping hints for a long time to multiple people. Essentially, like he would sprinkle breadcrumbs in 2015.

[John]

Man has told Alex in a very weird message, bro, I tell you secret, I'm killing my entire family next April.

[Patrick Hines]

This guy was dropping clues for a long time.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yeah. Going back three years. He's saying things like, I'll miss you when I'm in jail for life. And things like killing mom, dad, granny, sister and going to jail for life next April.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm going to kill my family. Yeah. Cause he was such a troll and he was so racist, and he was saying things for shock value all the time that they didn't really pay that much attention. And I'm like, we're doomed.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Well, but that's the thing. It's like that one that we covered about the kid that was like, saying, I'm gonna bring a gun to school. Here's a drawing of me bringing a gun to school and nobody taking it seriously.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Julian Benzavalli]

You know what I mean? And I do think, like, gamer community, it's kind of on you. I mean, I guess the question is, what do you do? Cause you don't know where he lives. You don't know his real name. Who do you report him to?

[Patrick Hines]

Right. And like, all the work it took them when it got to the worst possible point ever. And he's acting out all these murders, really doing them, like, it was hard enough you didn't have information. So if you go to cops and, like, here's a screenshot of someone saying something weird on a. In a chat room, right?

[Julian Benzavalli]

They're not going to, because where are they? Who are they? Are they just messing with you?

[Patrick Hines]

And then it's like, when you go to the discords of the world and all these, they'll be like, well, what's the proof? What's. Where's your subpoena? Why. Why am I going to violate this user privacy without, I don't know, photos of the murder?

[Julian Benzavalli]

And what they would say is that, well, here's the 50,000 people who said this and didn't do it. You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

And troll, say vile, vile things, and all they're doing is sitting in their mom's basement with no intention of doing it. But there are people who then do it.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Right. And the other thing, too, because we learn more about him through this interrogation, is that, like, at least from his own telling, there weren't any outward signs in his life that he was going to do this.

[Patrick Hines]

No, but the cops do say that he'd recently become an atheist.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And his family is Muslim. And over time, he'd, like, abandon that religion and become an atheist. Now, I'm not saying atheists are murderers. I know plenty of atheists. Some of them are very, very dear friends of mine. It's fine. I love atheists. Yeah, they're just saying that, like, they're trying to find a big shift in his life. They're trying to find anything that maybe changed or would cause a lot of unrest in the family.

[Julian Benzavalli]

It is there. And they do get him to say that it was, like, three years ago that he decided he didn't want to be religious anymore. He's lying to his family about going to school.

[Patrick Hines]

They're fighting all the time.

[Julian Benzavalli]

And what it, like, what. I mean, at least in his telling, the killer is saying.

[John]

He told me that he told his parents that the graduation was July 28 and that he couldn't have stalled it any longer.

[Nicole]

He said that I did this because I don't want my parents to feel the shame of having a son like me.

[Julian Benzavalli]

And I had to, like, kill them before they found out that I was a big failure. Like, that's what it feels like, he's saying.

[Patrick Hines]

And so, like, just to slow down on it, the cops, like, he's not denying any of the murders and the horrific acts to the cops, but when they ask him why, he just keeps saying, I'd like to remain silent.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So now, though, for whatever reason, reason, he's still allowed in the chat.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

Get how this, how this is happening.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Canadian Jail. I don't really understand because he goes out of his way to be like, canadian jail is not that bad. Don't worry about it. I'm like, well, I guess not if you still got your phone, if you still be on Discord in Canadian jail.

[Patrick Hines]

But he tells the gamers. So he's saying to the cops, I'll remain silent. But in writing he says, I've been planning this for three years. Yeah, I started skipping class my first year of college. I was a slacker. I wasn't doing well. I had to repeat all my classes. And so then by the second semester, he became really depressed. I became an atheist and ultimately created this plan. So he's been lying to his parents for three years, telling him, like, living with them.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Like, we were talking about this off mic. How do you live with yourself when you have a plan to kill your entire family three years from now?

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, I'll, you know, you'll never know.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Right. And, like, were there no outward signs? Like, he never wrote it down anywhere else? He never talked about it with anybody. He's not trying to buy guns. Like, you know, he's only. But there it is. It's all there in black and white in this online forum. So is the answer, like, do we have to regulate discord? Like, is it. Anybody who threatens to kill their family online gets reported somehow. Like, how does. What do we do?

[Patrick Hines]

I don't know. Because then it's like, well, stay the fuck away from my discord. Like, then it becomes like this police say, where you're like, well, get out of your Big Brother.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

Watch that show.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Exactly, exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

Did you ever watch Big Brother?

[Julian Benzavalli]

No, but I knew somebody who was on it.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, really?

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

But aren't there like a. Like, 50 seasons of big Brother? Like, constantly? Is it. Is it a game?

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yeah, well, the whole. I think I would do really well on Big Brother because it's like you're in a house with a bunch of people.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Benzavalli]

And then they just slowly vote each other out. And so it's like, you have to make alliance, whatever. Friendships, alliances, annoyances. I think I do pretty good.

[Patrick Hines]

It's just like, yeah, I don't like you today.

[Julian Benzavalli]

That's my understanding. Is that, like. Yeah. And you. You just vote. You just vote people out.

[Patrick Hines]

But then you have to kind of like the Traders. Then you have to get other people to vote with you.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yeah, exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

Do you think I do well on Big Brother.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yeah, sure.

[Patrick Hines]

I've never watched it, but just imagine.

[Julian Benzavalli]

That that's set up. Do you think I would make people like me?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. See, I don't know. It's. I think it depends on what your strategy is. If your strategy.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yes, yes.

[Patrick Hines]

But I think it would be harder to be. This is why I think I'd be terrible on the Traitors. Whether a traitor or faithful, I'm not meant for that show. I want to hang out with Alan and his dog Lala. Lala is, like, the star of that show. She's always in a little outfit, and.

[Julian Benzavalli]

He'S, like, even gayer and more Scottish on the show.

[Patrick Hines]

He has said many times he's playing a character. I love him on that show. Lala is the unsung hero, his little dog. But I would be terrible on the Traitors, and so I think I would also be terrible on Big Brother because I think it would be hard to, like, convince everyone to vote someone off.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. See, that's why I'd be good on Survivor because I'd be good in the challenges and I'd be good at building stuff. Not. Not that I'm good at building things and the challenges.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm not doing that bug challenge. Alan.

[Julian Benzavalli]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[Patrick Hines]

Unless Boston Rob is talking me through it, holding my hand.

[Julian Benzavalli]

You're on your Boston Rob's spelling. Knew it.

[Patrick Hines]

And also, all I know about him is the traitors and what TikTok has shown me about, like, him and Amba and like, the old. The old footage of Rob from Survivor. So I don't know the full lore. I just know him on the trailers.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Our soon right after our White Lotus.

[Patrick Hines]

Podcast hacks, which I started. Oh, it's so good. It's so good.

[Julian Benzavalli]

We are in the golden age right now.

[Patrick Hines]

We are. And that's why I was like, I want to be in the conversation.

[Julian Benzavalli]

There's a new watch.

[Patrick Hines]

People are watching.

[Julian Benzavalli]

There's a new show with Kate Hudson on Netflix.

[Patrick Hines]

What is that show?

[Julian Benzavalli]

I know I can't. It's a. It's about a basketball team, but I've.

[Patrick Hines]

Got to watch it. I'm obsessed with her.

[Julian Benzavalli]

She is so good on it. And the gay guy from the other two is on it. Like, I'm upset. It's really good.

[Patrick Hines]

I love Kate Hudson.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yeah, it's. You will love it. It's really good on Netflix.

[Patrick Hines]

You say?

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Okay, great.

[Julian Benzavalli]

I watch, like, three episodes a day.

[Patrick Hines]

Okay, great. We really need this break from this Horrible story. Thank you for going on.

[Julian Benzavalli]

You're absolutely welcome.

[Patrick Hines]

Colin, right in the discord. Would you be good on the traitors? Yes or no? Would you want to be a traitor or a faithful?

[Julian Benzavalli]

So anyway, whatever.

[Patrick Hines]

But like his whole thing, this killer just goes on and on about like how he disappointed his family and then he committed this brutal massacre and also blames his parents because if, maybe if they didn't pressure me so much. And I'm like, I'm not buying any of this. No, no way.

[Julian Benzavalli]

I mean, it is the kind of thing where if he's got mental ill coupled with like, like overwhelming anxiety about all the lies he's been telling. This is why I want to know more about his past. I want to know, like, was he one of those kids that was like secretly torturing animals, you know?

[Patrick Hines]

Right. But like, it's like the choices were made. You were taunting these gamers. You had planned it out. You'd been talking about this for three years. You waited till your dad got home. You. Now you're going to be like, they pressured me. What are you talking about?

[Julian Benzavalli]

Well, and especially because other people are saying that that's not true.

[Nicole]

If you ever see any pictures of all of them, any group photos, you see all of them in traditional dress except for him. Well, usually a lot of times people get kicked out of their house or disowned by their family, but his family seemed kind of okay with it.

[Julian Benzavalli]

We see pictures of the family, like all being religious together and he's in his street clothes, but they're all smiling.

[Patrick Hines]

And his uncle is here. Yes, and his uncle, like, the victims were his uncle's mom, sister, brother in law and niece. So this guy is very, very, very close. Obviously he's sobbing.

[Julian Benzavalli]

He says, I'm not angry, I'm just very sad.

[Patrick Hines]

He just can't make sense of it because he says he used to be such a good kid. Yeah, he used to be nice. He took care of people. Like, what happened?

[Julian Benzavalli]

And that's my question. What, what happened? I wish we knew more about what.

[Patrick Hines]

Happened and like it. And then it cuts back to him saying to the cops, like, oh, my jail cells, like, super uncomfortable. Can I get like a blanket or something? And the cops, like, no, mad that.

[Julian Benzavalli]

He can't get a blanket or a pillow in his jail cell as he's.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, see, like, being totally pompous with no remorse. So I'm like, you just, I don't care if you snapped or not. You're evil and made these horrible choices and then you were Taunting people the whole time. And you have no remorse now because what I'm not hearing is like, oh, my God, I was trapped and I did this. Or like, oh, my God, I can't believe now. And now at least I won't be judged by my family. Like, none of that is coming out at all. That was just a bullshit line for the gamers. Like, you're full of shit.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Totally.

[Patrick Hines]

I don't believe a word you're saying. No.

[Julian Benzavalli]

And like, in the end, he gets 40 years with the possibility of parole. I don't understand that.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. So he gets 40 years to life with parole after 40 years. Because all the lawyers and cops were like, this was a gift wrapped case. Like, this was one and done.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Totally. But like, he killed four people in cold blood. Three of them. They get him on premeditation and he's getting out in 40 years. He's gonna be like 62.

[Patrick Hines]

And the gamers are like, no, that doesn't sound right.

[Julian Benzavalli]

No.

[Patrick Hines]

And we kind of get like, you know, Nicole and John and these people saying, like, a lot of people quit.

[Nicole]

Playing the game after this. Inc. It messed with a lot of people. On the Void Surfer. You couldn't talk about it at all. They shut down all discussion about it. You couldn't say men has for a.

[Patrick Hines]

While just because trolls suck. Also, like, ruined a space for Nicole.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And people who just wanted to find Community. And he took it over and turned it into part of his horrible murderous plan.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

And now Nicole's like, people left the Community. People stopped playing. Like, I've been in therapy this whole time. Like, it ruins so many lives. And this guy's just like, sitting, like, complaining that his jail cell isn't comfy enough. No.

[Julian Benzavalli]

And like, Nicole is talking about how, like, it really hit her in the middle of the night one night that like, all of the life that was robbed from these people for no reason.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Julian Benzavalli]

You know?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, yeah. For no reason. Like, you're just like, I don't buy your excuses, bro. Like, you're an evil murderer and I hate you.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Okay, bye.

[Patrick Hines]

I just hate you. That's all I'm going to say. I don't want to put too much negativity on the world, but fuck this guy.

[Julian Benzavalli]

But fuck this gu. Oh, my God, girl. What we did. What's it called?

[Patrick Hines]

It's called Perfect World. Deadly Game. It's two episodes on Peacock and Peacock do better with those fucking photos. Or else.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Or else. Don't forget, fam, we have full video episodes now up on YouTube, like at least the last five or six episodes and everyone going forward. Oh, my God. And then our entire back catalog is audio video episodes. So check it out. We're really excited to, like, get to have you see more of us. And we're redoing the studio, and we're taking it really seriously. It's gonna be so fun.

[Patrick Hines]

It's gonna be fun. It's kind of like a whole new little new avenue.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yeah, we're nine years into the same time for a little bit of a revamp.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, we're shaking it up a little bit.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Shaking up. So what are we doing next, girl?

[Patrick Hines]

So we are doing the jewel thief on Hulu.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Just another. Just a derpy derp. Herb.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Just another manic Monday.

[Patrick Hines]

Just another manic.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Did you know that song was written by Prince?

[Patrick Hines]

Yes, I did.

[Julian Benzavalli]

You did. Of course you did. Of course you did. No, of course.

[Patrick Hines]

My brain is very weird. She has very weird places that. It's weirdly organized up there for little facts like that.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Wow. All right, well, stay tuned for each other for that. And we love you.

[Patrick Hines]

We love you so much. And we'll see you next week.

[Julian Benzavalli]

Bye. Bye.

[Patrick Hines]

Stay safe out there.

[Julian Benzavalli]

We formed a task force.

[John]

I knew the police were investigating me.

[Patrick Hines]

So I would always antagonize them. He sent me pictures just to kind of poke me.

[Julian Benzavalli]

He was living the life.

[Patrick Hines]

He had money, keeping company with beautiful women, the rich and famous. I could not fathom.

[Julian Benzavalli]

My son was living a double life.

[Patrick Hines]

They're trying to chase me all over the globe. Cairo, Canada, London, Paris, Vancouver, and Austria. And that's when I saw the sissy star.

[Julian Benzavalli]

He was committing crimes that were fairytale. Like, it was shocking because we couldn't explain how. He was brilliant.

[Patrick Hines]

I could have stopped, but you always need that thrill. He's got himself into something.

[Julian Benzavalli]

He doesn't know how to get out of it.

[Patrick Hines]

I knew I was smarter than him. The SWAT team showed up.

[Julian Benzavalli]

I was terrified.

[Patrick Hines]

It became imminent that we had to take him down.

[Julian Benzavalli]

This is the stuff that movies are made of.

[John]

Catch me if you can.