423: Dateline's "The Capture"

Summary

True Crime Obsessed Podcast Episode Summary: Dateline's "The Capture" (Episode 423)

Introduction

In Episode 423 of True Crime Obsessed, titled "Dateline's 'The Capture'," hosts Julian Bezavali and Patrick Hines delve deep into the harrowing true story of Amanda Lindhout—a Canadian journalist who was kidnapped in Somalia. This detailed analysis not only recaps the events covered by Dateline but also uncovers additional layers and untold aspects of Amanda's ordeal, all while providing insightful commentary infused with the podcast's signature humor and heart.

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Amanda Lindhout: A Spirit of Adventure

Timestamp: [03:22] - [04:35]

Amanda Lindhout hailed from a small Canadian town, driven by an insatiable desire to explore the world and tell compelling stories. Unlike many trained journalists, Amanda was a freelance reporter without formal training, which ultimately led her into some of the most dangerous regions on earth. Her quest for authentic experiences took her to war-torn areas in India, Pakistan, and, most notably, Somalia—a place described by host Kate Snow as "one of the most dangerous places in the world" ([05:09]).

The Kidnapping in Somalia

Timestamp: [09:17] - [12:08]

Amanda, accompanied by her colleague Nigel Brennan, embarked on what would become a life-threatening assignment in Mogadishu, Somalia. Upon arriving, their car was ambushed by a dozen armed men wielding AK-47s ([09:45]). Amanda recounts the terrifying moment she found herself "lying face down in the dirt, spread eagle with a gun held to the back of my head" ([10:07]).

Despite her adventurous spirit, Amanda admitted that she had not prepared for such a catastrophic event, lacking the protocols that trained journalists typically follow to ensure safety in volatile regions ([04:37] - [05:07]). This oversight made both her and Nigel vulnerable targets for kidnapping.

Life as Hostages: Torture and Survival

Timestamp: [12:13] - [28:43]

Amanda and Nigel were held hostage for ten months under the brutal control of Islamic rebels. During this period, they endured unimaginable torture, psychological warfare, and constant fear for their lives. A notable moment occurred when Amanda and Nigel attempted an escape by chipping away at a bathroom window, only to face severe retaliation from their captors ([24:08] - [25:39]).

Amanda details the psychological strain of being the sole woman among sixteen men, highlighting the unique challenges and the relentless attempts by captors to break her spirit. "Would she get justice?" Amanda voices her uncertainty, reflecting the deep emotional turmoil she faced ([03:16]).

The Role of Lorinda Lindhout: Negotiations and Resilience

Timestamp: [29:03] - [35:46]

Amanda's mother, Lorinda Lindhout, played a pivotal role in her daughter's rescue. Leveraging her previous experience with the Children of God cult, Lorinda was instrumental in negotiating Amanda's release. However, the Canadian government's policy of not paying ransoms complicated the rescue efforts. Lorinda's composed demeanor during negotiations—"Amanda, I love you, sweetheart" ([16:33])—underscored her strength and determination to secure her daughter's freedom without succumbing to ransom demands.

Undercover Operations and the Final Capture

Timestamp: [35:51] - [55:46]

The podcast uncovers additional details about the undercover operations that led to the eventual capture of Amanda's kidnapper. A Canadian investigator, referred to by the cover name "Colonel Mustard," orchestrated a lengthy plan to infiltrate the terrorist network. This included engaging with the captors under the guise of a book agent interested in publishing their story. Over seven years, meticulous efforts culminated in capturing the terrorist during a staged meeting on the island of Mauritius ([37:28] - [48:18]).

Amanda describes the surreal experience of testifying in court, where she confronted her captor—a man she refers to as "Adam." Despite his admissions, legal technicalities in Mauritius initially hindered the prosecution, leading to a complex trial process. Ultimately, Adam was sentenced to 15 years for kidnapping, though Amanda felt the sentence was insufficient given the gravity of his crimes ([53:07] - [55:46]).

Aftermath and Healing

Timestamp: [55:04] - [57:35]

Post-captivity, both Amanda and Nigel struggled to rebuild their lives. Amanda returned to college in eastern Canada, striving to overcome the trauma of her experience. She emphasizes the importance of forgiveness and moving forward, stating, "I deserve to not live with that anger in my life and keep pointing my feet towards forgiveness because forgiveness releases you of having to think about this piece of shit every day" ([55:58]).

Amanda's journey of healing was supported by her family and the legal system, although the scars of her experiences remain a profound part of her life story.

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Notable Quotes

1. Amanda Lindhout on Her Kidnapping Experience:

   • "I found myself lying face down in the dirt, spread eagle with a gun held to the back of my head." ([10:07])

2. Lorinda Lindhout on Negotiations:

   • "Amanda, I love you, sweetheart." ([16:33])

3. Amanda on Forgiveness and Healing:

   • "I deserve to not live with that anger in my life and keep pointing my feet towards forgiveness because forgiveness releases you of having to think about this piece of shit every day." ([55:58])

---

Conclusion

Episode 423 of True Crime Obsessed offers a comprehensive and emotionally charged recounting of Amanda Lindhout's kidnapping and the intricate efforts that led to her liberation. By expanding beyond Dateline's original coverage, Julian and Patrick provide listeners with a deeper understanding of the personal and procedural challenges faced during such a traumatic event. The episode stands as a testament to Amanda's resilience and the unwavering support of her family, encapsulating the essence of true crime storytelling with balance, empathy, and the podcast's characteristic humor.

Transcript

[Julian Bezavali]

So I'm never going to Somalia on vacation.

[Patrick Hines]

Okay, great.

[Julian Bezavali]

I'm not going there.

[Patrick Hines]

I don't want you to go. I'm not going either. I will not see you there.

[Julian Bezavali]

No, I'm not coming there on tour either. So don't ask.

[Patrick Hines]

I don't. I think they're okay with that. I don't think anyone.

[Julian Bezavali]

They don't want me there. No, no, no, no.

[Patrick Hines]

I think they like us.

[Julian Bezavali]

Hi, Julian Bezavali.

[Patrick Hines]

Hi, Patrick Hines.

[Julian Bezavali]

Oh, my goodness, girl, tell them what's going on.

[Patrick Hines]

Surprise, everyone. This is our first bonus episode of the year.

[Julian Bezavali]

Welcome back to the bonus episodes, everybody. I got, like, really excited when we. When I saw this on the cow.

[Patrick Hines]

I know. I have a story about this. So this is a Jen Simard pick.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So Jennifer Simard is our friend.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

You make a podcast with her called the Golden Girls Deep Dive. And so Jen is on Broadway, and so she's. If she's not performing and kicking ass, she's resting mostly. Unless, like, her schedule calls for other things. So she's always texting me about the datelines that she's watching. So she. She texted me this, like, last year, like, at the end of 2024, saying, have you seen this yet? And I. We were at a place in the year and the calendar where we couldn't, like, uproot it yet, but I was like, we already have our. But I was like, this is perfect for our bonus episodes next year. I was like, I promise you it'll be our first one. So we have been texting about this ad nauseum, and I will. There's more stuff to talk about, but this is Shout out to Jen. Thank you so much for sending this. You sent us a gold mine here.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah. She goes to sleep to Dateline. So this is, like. This is very much her wheelhouse.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, she's always sending me videos that she has, like, a very cool lighting setup in her bedroom.

[Julian Bezavali]

Remember the Greedy Slut episode?

[Patrick Hines]

She loves that one, too.

[Julian Bezavali]

Is she a murderer? No. Is she a slut? Is she a greedy slut?

[Patrick Hines]

Well, she got really excited because she just watched that in the wild. Like, she just came across it one day and was like, wait, where do I know Greedy Slut's from?

[Julian Bezavali]

Oh, right. What a ridiculous thing to say into a camera like someone is about your sister. Anyway, I'm listening to the Dayline podcast, too, by the way. It's like, Dayline is wild. People say the wildest thing on day one.

[Patrick Hines]

You know what? How about I tell you what? This Is what episode? This is? Okay.

[Julian Bezavali]

Great. Whoa. You've never had to wrestle it away from me like that.

[Patrick Hines]

I just couldn't believe that I hadn't told you talked about it yet. Everyone's like, what are you talking about? So it's called the Capture. It's season 27, episode 15.

[Julian Bezavali]

And, like, a lot of what happens in this episode is not funny at all.

[Patrick Hines]

No. But there's a reason Jen wanted us to cover it.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yes. But there is some stuff that happens here that is absolutely ridiculous.

[Patrick Hines]

It's ridiculous. She survived a harrowing hostage ordeal in one of the most dangerous places on earth.

[Julian Bezavali]

Tonight, they have brought me out to kill me.

[Patrick Hines]

Then from across the world, her kidnapper found her again.

[Julian Bezavali]

He reached out to me on Facebook.

[Amanda Lindhout]

Did your heart stop?

[Lorinda Lindhout]

It was so scary that he could find me.

[Patrick Hines]

For the first time, she shares her dramatic story. How she helps secret agents hunt down her captor.

[Amanda Lindhout]

This all plays like a Tom Clancy thriller.

[Kate Snow]

Absolutely.

[Julian Bezavali]

The setting, a perfect island paradise.

[Patrick Hines]

The plot, a daring undercover sting.

[Julian Bezavali]

You were supposed to get. Yes. Some money. Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

With the ticket.

[Julian Bezavali]

10,000.

[Kate Snow]

We did. I didn't think it would work.

[Patrick Hines]

Face to face with her kidnapper, at.

[Lorinda Lindhout]

Last, I just broke down.

[Amanda Lindhout]

It's still hard for you.

[Lorinda Lindhout]

This is real life, like, pain.

[Patrick Hines]

Would she get justice?

[Lorinda Lindhout]

I got the courage in that moment, and I said, I'm ready.

[Julian Bezavali]

So we meet Amanda Lindhout. She comes from a small Canadian town, but she's got an adventurous spirit. She wants to go out and see the world.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And she's sitting with Kate Snow. She's our reporter and host.

[Julian Bezavali]

Kate Snow, at some point, tricks the Dateline people and be like, we got to go to that island where this thing.

[Patrick Hines]

She had the best week. She was like, I even have a menu. So I was like, pretty easy week at work this week, huh, Kate?

[Julian Bezavali]

There was no reason for them to have to go to the island to do this interview. They just. Kate's like, you know what we're going to have?

[Patrick Hines]

We need.

[Julian Bezavali]

We need the B roll.

[Patrick Hines]

Well done.

[Julian Bezavali]

We got to get it.

[Patrick Hines]

But Amanda, she always wants to be a world traveler. It's all she wanted. And by age 19, like, she was doing it.

[Amanda Lindhout]

She kept moving, kept pushing forward, going.

[Lorinda Lindhout]

From India into Pakistan. It did feel like a big deal to me. It was something I wanted to do, and then I did it. And Afghanistan is right next door.

[Patrick Hines]

Pakistan, Afghanistan. She's all over the place.

[Julian Bezavali]

And, like, importantly, she's not going to the touristy, like, big towns and stuff. She's going to the small villages she's like, we see her like in a pickup truck driving into the mountains of Venezuela or whatever. She's trying to have like an authentic.

[Patrick Hines]

Experience because what she wants to be is a journalist covering stories that she says she cares about. And like she's going into active war zones. So she's going to places that a lot of people, kind of rightly so, don't want to go to.

[Julian Bezavali]

Now I.

[Patrick Hines]

Because it's so dangerous.

[Julian Bezavali]

Because the thing here about this is that she is not a trained journalist. As far as I understand, she did not go to journalism school. She does not know, like the journalism code of ethics. She does not. Do you know what I mean? Like, when you are traveling to war torn countries. Now, I understand that there are freelancers that do this all the time.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

They often result in kidnappings and stuff like that. There is protocol that is not about to be followed.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Julian Bezavali]

So we strongly recommend against doing shit.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, look, we love a good fake it till you make it story.

[Julian Bezavali]

100%.

[Patrick Hines]

You got to keep yourself safe.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yes, 100%.

[Patrick Hines]

Now Somalia is at the top of Amanda's list. And Kate Snow describes Somalia as, quote, one of the most dangerous places in the world.

[Julian Bezavali]

Because that's what it is.

[Patrick Hines]

Because that's what it is.

[Julian Bezavali]

Kate nails it with that.

[Patrick Hines]

She nails it.

[Julian Bezavali]

Her mom says, I would really rather she not go there.

[Patrick Hines]

And she's not just going to like this, quote, safe area of Somalia, if there is one. I'm not trying to be an idiot. Of course she's active. Amanda is actively going to places where no one else is going to go. Like she really wants. She, she's like the most dangerous place in the world. That's why she wants to.

[Julian Bezavali]

But. And once again, there are, I guess there are ways you can do that or not, you know.

[Patrick Hines]

And Amanda admits, like, she says, I wasn't thinking ahead or planning for what to do if something did go wrong right now.

[Julian Bezavali]

And I want to be really clear, I'm being a little tough on Amanda for making bad choices. What happens to her is absolutely horrendous. And there is no victim blaming happening here. I'm just saying, like, I really wish you hadn't gone.

[Patrick Hines]

If you're her mom, you'd be also begging her to please don't go.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah. And then when you're the mom, like, how do you like, lay down in front of the plane on the tarmac and you know what I mean? Like, if this were Daisy, I literally, over my dead body.

[Patrick Hines]

Of course.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And now like, so she's Going. Amanda's going. And she. As she's like, touching down on the.

[Amanda Lindhout]

Plane into Mogadishu, she remembers a fellow passenger turning to her and her colleague Nigel Brennan, with a stern warning.

[Lorinda Lindhout]

He said to me, your head, Your head alone is worth half a million dollars in Mogadishu. Be careful.

[Patrick Hines]

Your head alone is worth, like, half a million dollars here. So it's like, go with that.

[Julian Bezavali]

This is a place where people get kidnapped. Kidnappings are rampant world, but especially here, and it's very violent and very common, and it's just not wise to be going right now.

[Patrick Hines]

Amanda's there with Nigel Brennan, and I'm like, how do I know that name? He was on the Traders Australia. Oh, the Traders first came out. I.

[Julian Bezavali]

Is he Australian?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

Oh.

[Patrick Hines]

So the Traders Australia. There's like, Traders, UK Traders Australia.

[Julian Bezavali]

When I was waiting, does Alan Cumming host all of them?

[Patrick Hines]

No, but the host are amazing.

[Julian Bezavali]

Okay.

[Patrick Hines]

But when I was waiting for some season, Mike and I fell in love with the Traders like a few seasons ago. And then when we were waiting for a season to come out, we were just watching all of them.

[Julian Bezavali]

Oh, wow.

[Patrick Hines]

But he is there, so no spoilers if you haven't seen it yet. But yes, he is on the traitors, and he's like, known as, like, a hostage negotiator now.

[Julian Bezavali]

But no way.

[Patrick Hines]

He wasn't at the time, clearly. So I will.

[Julian Bezavali]

Daylight was. You're not negotiating your own.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, these are terrorists. These are, like violent terrorists.

[Julian Bezavali]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

So Nigel is not here to tell this story.

[Julian Bezavali]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

Amanda and her mother are here to tell it. Travel down the road.

[Julian Bezavali]

Back again, girl. Remy is a new sponsor this month. Steve did it in front of me. I'm obsessed.

[Patrick Hines]

Really. Tell me about it.

[Julian Bezavali]

So this is all about the mouth guard, right? Okay. Steve's been living with a mouth guard for years. Golden literally stole his mouth guard off the nightstand, destroyed it. Now, normally that would be a nightmare. You got to go to the dentist. You got to get all the impressions done. You got to make the appointment. It can cost 500 to 800. Not with Remy. They send you a kit, you take the impression at home, you do it by yourself, and it's 80% cheaper than what you'd pay at the dentist. Steve was blown away by this.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, they're dental grade, professional quality mouth guards so you don't have to deal with going to the dentist. And you're not paying that price because they're 80% cheaper.

[Julian Bezavali]

And it's like. It sounds like it might be complicated. No, like they give you the whole kit. You can do the whole thing in like five minutes.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. So this at home impression kit, you create molds of your teeth, you send it back to Remy and then Remy's dental team will take your custom fit guards and send them back to you.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah. It was so fast. It was so easy. Plus, they've got this 45 night satisfaction guarantee. So you can try it risk free, sleep better and decide if it's the perfect fit. If not, Remy's got you covered.

[Patrick Hines]

That's amazing.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah. I did the onboarding call with these people. I love them. Their whole philosophy here is to make this less expensive and way more convenient than having to deal with a dentist.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Julian Bezavali]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Bezavali]

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[Patrick Hines]

Give your teeth a break without breaking the bank with Remy.

[Julian Bezavali]

Thank you, Remy, for sponsoring this episode. So she's in Mogadishu for three days. And we learn on day three, Amanda's traveling through the city in a car. It's funny because they refer to Nigel as like, her traveling companion. I didn't know that they were in a relationship.

[Patrick Hines]

I'll get into that.

[Julian Bezavali]

Okay.

[Patrick Hines]

I have a whole little like what Dateline left out. It's coming up very shortly.

[Julian Bezavali]

So she's traveling through the city in a car with Nigel. The car is stopped and a group of men with AK47s come out of nowhere like they've been laying in wait for this car.

[Lorinda Lindhout]

About a dozen armed men were emerging from where they had been hidden, all of them with AK47s. Next thing I knew, my door was pulled open. And then I found myself lying face down in the dirt, spread eagle with a gun held to the back of my head. I asked, is this about money? And he said to me, it might be something like that.

[Julian Bezavali]

It might be about something like that. Yeah, yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Here's what dateline left out.

[Julian Bezavali]

Okay.

[Patrick Hines]

So like we said, Amanda really wanted to go to the most dangerous places on earth and she was happy that no other reporters were going there. And she wrote in her book, she says, the truth was, I was glad for the lack of competition. Now she.

[Julian Bezavali]

I mean, no, no, no, no, no. There's a reason nobody else is there. Oh, my God.

[Patrick Hines]

So she and Nigel had dated, and he's a photographer, and she called him to go with her. And he also had no experience in war zones. So I'm saying that because they're easy targets as well.

[Julian Bezavali]

And I want to say, again, this is not uncommon. You hear stories like this a lot where people are freelancers, want the story, and they want it. They want the big story. So they're going to go to places where other reporters don't go. And these are often not trained journalists.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. And again, I'm super into the, like, fake it till you make it, like, all of that. But it's very scary because now Amanda does want to go into these active war zones to, like, get the story and make a name for herself as a journalist. But what she. She wants to go to the places where everyone refuses to go. Now there are bodyguards with them.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And, like, the bodyguards are saying, girl, we're not going.

[Julian Bezavali]

And this is not in the episode.

[Patrick Hines]

This is not in the episode. But, like, on this drive, that's where Amanda was like, well, Nigel and I will go by ourselves.

[Julian Bezavali]

And where were they headed?

[Patrick Hines]

Do you know, like, into the war zone.

[Julian Bezavali]

Into the place. Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

You know, into this, like, militia run, horrifying area so that Nigel could take photos and she could be the journalist, you know, but the bodyguards are like, girl, we're not going. And she said, well, we're going to go. I need this story. She also was detained once before.

[Julian Bezavali]

Oh, really?

[Patrick Hines]

In Iraq.

[Julian Bezavali]

Now, when you say detained, you mean like, she was, like, kidnapped or was she held?

[Patrick Hines]

Like, it depends. I mean, this is also from her book. I read this page of her book today. Wow. But in 2008, so, like, right before this.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Her car was surrounded. She was taken to these political headquarters. She was detained.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

She was questioned. She was asked about her loyalties. And then she called a friend of hers who in her own book says, who exerted some pressure, and we'd been let go within the hour.

[Julian Bezavali]

Oh, wow.

[Patrick Hines]

So she says she's like, it was a hassle. It was scary, but it wasn't a big deal.

[Julian Bezavali]

Okay.

[Patrick Hines]

Which is like, those are a lot. A hassle is one thing. Being scary is another thing and not a big deal. But she sort of says it in the same breath is like, it's real. It really wasn't a big deal to her. I mean, nothing compared to the nightmare.

[Julian Bezavali]

That she is about to experience.

[Patrick Hines]

But she was detained in some way before, Right?

[Julian Bezavali]

I mean, okay, so back in Canada, Lorinda, her mom, stops hearing from her Daughter. Thank you for that background. That's.

[Patrick Hines]

There's a little bit more sprinkled in.

[Julian Bezavali]

Okay.

[Patrick Hines]

I just thought it was interesting. And again, we're not victim blaming at all. What happens is the most, it will give you nightmares, like, trigger warning for literally everything.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yes. And she's an incredible survivor. She gets through it.

[Patrick Hines]

I just, like, did quite a deep dive. And like, her book is on Google, so.

[Julian Bezavali]

And I mean, she. Look, I keep. I've said 100 times, she is not the first untrained journalist to do this. And she won't be the last, unfortunately. Right. So back in Canada, her mom, Lorinda, stops hearing from her. She knows that kidnappings are common in Somalia.

[Amanda Lindhout]

Lorinda reached out to Canadian officials who told her this was, in fact a kidnapping by Islamic rebels. And they scrambled to set up a recording system in case the kidnappers called.

[Julian Bezavali]

Why did you wait for her to call you?

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Julian Bezavali]

If you had that information, local cops, why didn't you call the mom?

[Patrick Hines]

But maybe they didn't have any information to call the mom. Oh, because Amanda says, like, I didn't really think about if this was going to happen to me. Like, she admits that she didn't make any plans for the worst.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah. And there's also. Right, exactly. But there's a lot left out in terms of the communication between the governments. Like, we don't know how much communication Canada has with Somalia in this time.

[Patrick Hines]

And also Canada and Australia are not negotiating.

[Julian Bezavali]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

Not paying the ransom.

[Julian Bezavali]

America, they don't. I think, like, most countries don't do that.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. So it's kind of like. Well, sorry.

[Julian Bezavali]

Right, right. Well, it's funny because I remember reading Laura Ling's book, Lisa Ling's younger sister who was held prisoner in North Korea. And though, like, America doesn't pay ransom and Laura Ling is not an untrained journalist. She is a very. I mean, I think she made a very bad choice to go into North Korea and she got caught. But she's not an untrained journalist, but she was held there for a very long time. And though they weren't paying her ransom, they had Bill Clinton black channeling with everybody everywhere.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

So, like, we don't get any of that. And Bill Clinton is the one who got on the plane and went to get her. You know, like, he brought her back. And I just. We don't hear any of it. Kind of just sounds like Canada's like, sorry, girl, you're kind of on your own here.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. I weirdly know someone who this happened to.

[Julian Bezavali]

Really.

[Patrick Hines]

A Journalist and a camera person. He actually worked on our web series, the Residuals. I'm not going to say his name because I didn't ask if I could tell him this, if I could say this, but he was a journalist. Like, he was a video journalist, and he was someplace, and it got really bad, and he got out of it, and he has, like, a very, very harrowing story.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

But it is. It does get very complicated.

[Julian Bezavali]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

And you think that it would be like, well, we're fucking America. We're going to fucking go in and do it.

[Julian Bezavali]

And it's.

[Patrick Hines]

It's not like.

[Julian Bezavali]

It's not like.

[Patrick Hines]

It really isn't like it's not.

[Julian Bezavali]

And.

[Patrick Hines]

And you're. You're sitting there in this place that's really scary.

[Julian Bezavali]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

Being. You know.

[Julian Bezavali]

But it's also why it's incredibly dangerous for freelancers, because at least if you're working for the New York Times or you're working for, you know, some major news organization, you know that your job has your back. But if you're a freelancer making bad decisions, then it's. It's like nobod wants anything bad to happen to you, but there's just not much that can be done for you.

[Patrick Hines]

He was working for an organization, so a little bit different.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

But now, Lorinda, we jump immediately. We're at negotiations.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Led by mom, Larinda. Lorinda is talking to Adam, and we're calling him. Adam. Adam is. Is representing the kidnappers on the phone.

[Julian Bezavali]

And he calls her, like, obviously gets her number from Amanda. He calls her directly. He's not trying to negotiate with the Canadians either.

[Patrick Hines]

No. Here's another thing DATELINE left out. Lorinda was in the Children of God cult and has some experience being held hostage.

[Julian Bezavali]

No way.

[Patrick Hines]

For six years.

[Julian Bezavali]

Whoa.

[Patrick Hines]

For six years?

[Julian Bezavali]

Oh, my. Wow.

[Patrick Hines]

All right, well, like, there's that.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

But like, Lorinda. And we have all of this audio of Lorinda being like, Adam, No, I'm not coming to the table with that because it's crazy.

[Julian Bezavali]

I will say the Canadian government does set up, or at least like the authorities set up a wiretap on her phone that she knows about. So she knows all of her calls with him are being recorded. And he tells her there are two.

[Patrick Hines]

Options only to say, I don't want to pay a money Otherwise to pay.

[Julian Bezavali]

1 million for your dosage.

[Amanda Lindhout]

When this Adam called Lorinda on day four, he had a surprise.

[Julian Bezavali]

Okay. Lorinda.

[Amanda Lindhout]

Yes.

[Julian Bezavali]

Talk to your daughter Amanda.

[Patrick Hines]

Mom.

[Lorinda Lindhout]

Amanda, I love you, sweetheart.

[Julian Bezavali]

You can either say, I don't want to pay money or you can pay $1 million for your daughter.

[Patrick Hines]

And so, like, Lorinda is so calm, and I promise you, she was coached to be honest.

[Julian Bezavali]

She really is. We hear these calls between her and Amanda where Amanda is literally being tortured and the mom stays very calm because.

[Patrick Hines]

Much of it is psychological warfare to break you down, to say yes. And Lorinda is being very.

[Julian Bezavali]

Guess who would cave in five seconds. I mean, what. I Honestly, nobody would let me anywhere near the Patrick. If that's Adam, you give it to me.

[Patrick Hines]

You know, it's. But it's like. Right. I know there's something I. I know it's crazy. So this is going on for weeks and weeks and weeks. Amanda is the only woman there among 16 men. Even in the best of circumstances. That's a fudgeing nightmare now.

[Julian Bezavali]

That's a nightmare. But I feel like we learn later that she's also rooming with traveling companion.

[Patrick Hines]

Who'S a man with Nigel until they convert to Islam because these terrorists are Islamic fundamentalists.

[Julian Bezavali]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

And Amanda and Nigel decide if we convert, maybe they'll show us race or something. And what happens is that that actually worked against them because then they couldn't be in the same room together because they were a man and a woman.

[Julian Bezavali]

Oh, my God.

[Patrick Hines]

So I don't know why they didn't separate them in the beginning.

[Julian Bezavali]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

But it turned out a lot of by converting, it really did not work. I understand their line of thought here, of course.

[Julian Bezavali]

Of course.

[Patrick Hines]

But it didn't work out well for them.

[Julian Bezavali]

That's also not in the episode.

[Patrick Hines]

Not in the episode.

[Julian Bezavali]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Bezavali]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Bezavali]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Bezavali]

Robin Hood Financial LLC Member SIPC Gold membership is offered by Robinhood Gold, LLC. Nearly a month after being kidnapped, the captors come for Amanda and Nigel. And they're taken out of their room. They're marched outside, and suddenly they're, like, face to face with Adam. This is where they're seeing him for the first time.

[Patrick Hines]

And now Adam is filming them.

[Julian Bezavali]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

He's telling them, like, get on their knees and beg for their lives. This is going to happen. This is part of the psychological warfare. How many times are you going to beg for your life? And one day, will it come true? Like, will they kill you? And that's the point. They're trying to break them down.

[Julian Bezavali]

Right. And Lorinda, Amanda's mom, sees this on TV. It's September 17, 2008. She turns on TV in Canada. She sees her daughter's hostage video on Al Jazeera.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And so the weeks are turning into months. This is when they separate Amanda and Nigel from the traitors.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And this is when Amanda tells Kate Snow just about the horrific, truly nightmarish abuse that she was undergoing on a.

[Julian Bezavali]

Daily basis once she was separated from Nigel.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

It seems like it wasn't happening before. So, like, the idea of them converting and then him being separated like that just is awful.

[Patrick Hines]

It's awful. She's being tortured. She's being assaulted regularly. She's being raped. And one night, once again, they, like, drive her out into the desert in the middle of the night. They have her kneel by a tree.

[Julian Bezavali]

I mean, this is so awful. And it's so graphic. Like, it's the way she describes it.

[Lorinda Lindhout]

They brought me over to an acacia tree. They had me kneel. My head is pulled back, and then there was a serrated knife.

[Amanda Lindhout]

The ruthless kidnappers told a desperate Amanda she only had three minutes to plead for her life. With her traumatized mother on the other end of the call, she's got three.

[Julian Bezavali]

Minutes to plead for her life to her mother. And we hear the phone call.

[Patrick Hines]

It's horrifying.

[Julian Bezavali]

It's really horrifying.

[Patrick Hines]

That sound of her. Cause she's just saying mommy over and over again. And she's so, so desperate and sad, and it's so.

[Julian Bezavali]

And she's saying that they've taken me out here to kill me. You have to get. You have to get the $1 million within the week or they're going to kill me. You need to get the 1 million.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, that's why they're doing this repeatedly.

[Julian Bezavali]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

That would break anybody down. Amanda, her mother, you know what I mean, because one day they're going to go through with it, Right?

[Julian Bezavali]

Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

So that's. That's what they're trying to do here.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And so Mother Lorinda is just trying so hard to be strong. Trying to do. I'm sure she's getting all this advice from all these other places. She's trying to be calm. She's trying to, like. She wants to tell her daughter that she loves her and she does, but she can't, like, show weakness with the terrorists. So navigating a lot here.

[Julian Bezavali]

And she's, like, keeping it together somehow.

[Patrick Hines]

Somehow.

[Julian Bezavali]

I don't know how. I don't know. Like, every time we hear her on the phone, she sounds so calm. Yeah, not me.

[Patrick Hines]

No, no, no, no, no. Now, Canada, as a rule, doesn't pay ransom to kidnap. So they tell her mother, like, well, if you want to buy Amanda's freedom, you're on your own.

[Julian Bezavali]

Which is also just like. I don't know if that's what they would say to him. I think that, like, with Laura Ling, and I think they say you're not allowed to do that.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

Like you can't get the money. I think I could be wrong about that.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, if it's allowed or not, fudge that I'm raising the money to get my loved one. I don't care. I'll go behind the government's back.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah, but then how are you going to get them out of there? Because you need the government to, like, send. You know what? I'm actually. I'm actually certain that that is.

[Patrick Hines]

I don't need a fudgeing American plane if I. If someone I love needs to be saved.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Give a shit.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Whose plane? I'm either stealing or asking nicely. I'll probably start with asking nicely.

[Julian Bezavali]

Just go straight to Taylor. You know what I mean? She's probably not using the jet that day.

[Patrick Hines]

You know what?

[Julian Bezavali]

She would let you have it.

[Patrick Hines]

I got idea.

[Julian Bezavali]

Taylor Swift is probably doing secret rescue missions on the weekend every other Friday for a second. You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

That's what it came out. She's fudging. Boosting every economy. She can't breathe without boosting the economy in the city she's in. Good for her.

[Julian Bezavali]

She's just holding her breath.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

She's like, you want another $8 million?

[Patrick Hines]

And guess what? I know she's happy to do it, but the point is, you get that person home.

[Julian Bezavali]

That's true.

[Patrick Hines]

I would go behind the government's back in a heartbeat. That's a government.

[Julian Bezavali]

I Don't need an American plane. You said, I love it.

[Patrick Hines]

I don't need any of that. You're trying to tell me that Mike is being held hostage and I can't get to. I fucking dare you to say that to my face. We're going. We're just going.

[Julian Bezavali]

Who's in? Did you guys know that Chilean can build planes?

[Patrick Hines]

I've just. I've just figured it out.

[Julian Bezavali]

It was. She read one article on Google.

[Patrick Hines]

I just decided.

[Julian Bezavali]

Unbelievable.

[Patrick Hines]

To be a plane builder.

[Julian Bezavali]

Totally.

[Patrick Hines]

So now, meanwhile, in Somalia, Amanda and.

[Julian Bezavali]

Nigel have a very stupid plan.

[Patrick Hines]

Now, they're in separate rooms.

[Julian Bezavali]

And I want to make it clear here, you do whatever you have to do to save your life. When I say it's a stupid plan, I'm just thinking like, oh, God, anything that they do is going to get them killed.

[Patrick Hines]

But let me tell you, months ago, I don't even think you're a person anymore. You're not thinking rationally. You don't even know what, like, your hands are. You know what I mean? Like, normal things that used to be normal are no longer normal.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And now I think you. Something changes, and you are a different being completely.

[Julian Bezavali]

I think you must be right. So they're. Nigel and Amanda are in separate rooms, but they realize that if they stand near the window, they can speak back and forth. And I stay.

[Patrick Hines]

Stupid kidnappers.

[Julian Bezavali]

I was like. And nobody else can hear them.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Julian Bezavali]

Like, that's amazing. It does not seem like they're very well guarded. No. You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

First, for some reason, I don't know why, but I just sort of assumed that when they took Nigel away from her, they took him away, far away.

[Julian Bezavali]

Right, Right.

[Patrick Hines]

Then to learn that they were in literal earshot of each other, I'm like, oh.

[Julian Bezavali]

Like, they're probably separated by a wall.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. He's literally in the room next door. And they can hear each other.

[Julian Bezavali]

Right. And so they start talking out the window about their plan.

[Lorinda Lindhout]

Nigel realized that we might have a chance to escape out that bathroom window.

[Amanda Lindhout]

Each time they used the bathroom, they chipped away at the mortar holding the bricks together, blocking the window. Then they would replace the loose bricks until one day the hole was big enough and they made a break for it.

[Julian Bezavali]

They can pull the bricks out and then jump out the window.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And they do it.

[Julian Bezavali]

So somehow they both get into the.

[Patrick Hines]

Bathroom their way through. And again, I'm not making a joke. I don't think they're being fed very well.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

I don't think it takes a Lot to, like, shimmy through.

[Julian Bezavali]

Well, because then that was not explained very well in the episode because it was my. She describes, like, breaking out the window and dropping down and instantly knowing that it wasn't going to go well.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Julian Bezavali]

And she starts running. And she is only describing her first person experience. She says she turns around and sees one of their young captors, which, again, blew my mind. I'm like, I bet their captors are 12 years old.

[Patrick Hines]

Teenagers.

[Julian Bezavali]

You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

They were. They were actually teenagers.

[Julian Bezavali]

And so she's running, she's thinking. She's saying, like, a mosque would be safe. I don't know why she thinks that, but she's saying, if I can get inside this mosque, I'm going to be okay. There's no description of him anywhere. So I didn't realize he was with her.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And in accounts that I read, yeah, he was there.

[Julian Bezavali]

Okay.

[Patrick Hines]

But he's also not here to tell us part of the story.

[Julian Bezavali]

Guard, can we both go to the bathroom at the same time? No reason.

[Patrick Hines]

No reason at all.

[Julian Bezavali]

You know.

[Patrick Hines]

So they run into this mosque, and Amanda describes seeing her first woman in five long months.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And she says, when she hugged me and held on to me, it was the first time I felt something akin to being safe. Which will, you know, break your heart, of course. So this woman. This woman begs Amanda's kidnappers to let her go.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

But Amanda's like, of course they wouldn't listen. I'm like, why would they listen?

[Julian Bezavali]

Of course. And in Amanda's description, that woman threw.

[Lorinda Lindhout]

Herself on top of me and was drug partway across the floor with me until she couldn't hang on anymore. And right before they pulled me out the door of the mosque, I looked back and I saw her on the floor. She had tears pouring down her face, and she still had her hands outstretched to help me.

[Patrick Hines]

So they're essentially at one point dragging both of them, because this woman, this hero woman that's, like, nowhere to be found, has sacrificed herself and thrown herself onto Amanda to try to save her.

[Julian Bezavali]

And my thinking is like, is this woman safe?

[Patrick Hines]

Like, that's my. My thought, too. Like, where is she? Probably not.

[Julian Bezavali]

Right. And you see Kate Snow talking to Amanda like, you never saw this woman. She's like, no, when I looked back, the last thing I saw was this woman sobbing and just, like, helpless with.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, her arms outstretched is how she describes it.

[Julian Bezavali]

And it must just be a completely lawless country, at least in the. In this describing, because it's like, well, there's no police for this woman to go to and be like, these rebels are holding this woman against. Like, it's just the way that it feels described in this episode is like, it's just total lawlessness.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes. And so the escape failed, and now the kidnappers are pissed, and now everything gets a hundred times worse.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah. And because Amanda is saying that, like, from this point on, they are torturing her. And like, they describe the torture in a way that I couldn't really understand. But they're binding her and they're. They're hanging her from something.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Like, with ropes. And like, separate. Separate. Like, yeah, her limbs are all spread out.

[Julian Bezavali]

And so. But then we hear her on the phone with her mother, and this is where she's saying to her, mom, mom, they've started to torture me.

[Patrick Hines]

I can't even listen to it. It's horrifying.

[Julian Bezavali]

I mean, I was listening to it at like, literally five in the morning, and I. I was like, I don't know if I can do this.

[Patrick Hines]

It's. It's incredibly disturbing. Yeah, it's. I. I mean, what. That. It's partly sort of what I was saying where, like, it changes you and you sort of like suddenly jumping out the window. Seems like an excellent idea.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And like, her voice is different and you're just a different creature.

[Julian Bezavali]

And the fact that she is here and sitting down for this interview and seems well adjusted. She seems to have done a lot of healing. She's laughing about some stuff. Like, she seems like. She seems okay. But having. Hearing her live through, like, it's inhuman.

[Patrick Hines]

It is. It is. So 10 months have gone by. Amanda and Nigel are taken out in the middle of the night again. The chains they have been wearing for all that time have been so God off of them that they've been wearing for 10 months, which is also, like, no keys. It's so fucking archaic.

[Julian Bezavali]

I know, I know.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, am I even allowed to say that?

[Julian Bezavali]

I mean, I imagine that they put these chains on them 10 months ago. Who knows that the guards that did that are even still there? Like, it's one key that they. I mean, I. I can't be relied on to know where something is that I use.

[Patrick Hines]

Can you go? But Amanda and Nigel are driven out some more. They are both absolutely hysterical. What could come next?

[Julian Bezavali]

This is it.

[Patrick Hines]

This is it. Did they take the chains off? Because now, of course.

[Julian Bezavali]

Right. And it's like 10 months of negotiating. The money's not. They think they are taking. They're being taken out to the desert to be killed.

[Patrick Hines]

And every Time they get taken out. They're screaming. They have to beg for their lives. So they're like, oh, this is it. This is it. Now this guy appears.

[Lorinda Lindhout]

He says to me, why are you crying? Here, talk to your mother. And she said to me, amanda, you're free.

[Amanda Lindhout]

Amanda's mother, Larinda, had never stopped negotiating. And Adam had agreed to. To accept $680,000 for both Amanda and Nigel.

[Patrick Hines]

Her mother tells her that she's free. And I'm like, I'm Sorry, we're only 15 minutes into this.

[Julian Bezavali]

I know, I know, I know.

[Patrick Hines]

What is going on? What other twists and turns do you have in store for me? Jennifer Samar. And. But at first, now we're, like, celebrating, right? Oh, my God.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Against all hope. Like, how did. Both governments weren't involved. How did this happen?

[Julian Bezavali]

And I will say, this episode flew by. This was, like, the fastest I've ever taken not.

[Patrick Hines]

Is that right?

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah. I was like. It was. It went so fast. It's wild. But we learned that Lorinda had never. The mom had never stopped negotiating. The captors had agreed to accept $680,000 for both Amanda and Nigel.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. She negotiated Adam down from like, $3 million to $1 million to 680.

[Julian Bezavali]

And you said. We were talking off Mike. You said they raised the money.

[Patrick Hines]

They use, like, a private firm that sort of specializes in this. Like, when the government won't help, like, call us, and we'll help you to get your loved one out of a war zone.

[Julian Bezavali]

And you were saying, too, that Nigel and Amanda's families don't like each other.

[Patrick Hines]

They don't. Nigel and Amanda don't speak.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Which, for whatever reason, I'm not getting into the gossipy shit of what happened here. Like, again, this shit changes you. But I don't know what that does to someone being.

[Julian Bezavali]

I know. Except that, like, it's the only other person in the world who knows what you've been through.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. I mean, it got. From what I read, it got, like, kind of tense, and so I don't know.

[Julian Bezavali]

But of course there's a story there.

[Patrick Hines]

How could. How could it not be? I know.

[Julian Bezavali]

No.

[Patrick Hines]

Travel down the road Back again, girl.

[Julian Bezavali]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

But you go on the website and you say where you are and they're like, oh, based on that environment and the air quality. So, like, it's really, really specific to where you are.

[Julian Bezavali]

I remember you were like, concerned about the air quality part of this whole thing.

[Patrick Hines]

I was worried because I don't know anything about plants and like, I don't have time to become an expert.

[Julian Bezavali]

But you're not a botanist.

[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Bezavali]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Bezavali]

And check that air quality.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, it's important.

[Julian Bezavali]

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[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. So parents can send money to their kids and keep an eye on kids spending and saving.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah. Also it's great for teens.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, it's all about like building money, confidence and making money not scary.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah. So they send you a debit card and like, you can use the Chores feature. That's what we do. So Daisy does her weekly chores. She gets automatically paid to her debit card. At the beginning of every weekend, we go to the app and we see how much money she's got saved, and then she can determine how much money she wants to spend for the weekend. And she's gotten really good at saving for things. It's a delayed gratification thing for her, and it's really worth it.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, real life money, truly. So she's learning how to do it at a young age, which is, like, I think a lot of people would shy away from that, but this is great.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah. Just like Green Light says, it's a convenient way for parents to raise financially smart kids and for families to navigate life together.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

I actually, like, love talking about money stuff with Daisy. It, like, really demystifies it.

[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Bezavali]

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[Patrick Hines]

Oh, that's right.

[Julian Bezavali]

Get a picture. Golden if you want.

[Patrick Hines]

I love it. So the families are, like, united at the hospital. Amanda and Nigel are barely recognizable.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And Amanda and Nigel are at home trying to live their life lives, trying to heal, trying to work through what happened. But it's not over yet.

[Julian Bezavali]

Right. Because Amanda's at college now in eastern Canada, like, sort of trying to get her life together. She gets a Facebook message from Adam. Her captor just says, hello, and, like.

[Patrick Hines]

Who are these kidnappers you're fucking Facebook stalking?

[Julian Bezavali]

I mean, unbelievable.

[Patrick Hines]

And he messages Amanda and her mother.

[Amanda Lindhout]

Adam taunted Lorinda. He said he was reaching out because he had journals Amanda had written and kept deeply personal writing that had helped her get through it all. What were you thinking when you replied back?

[Patrick Hines]

I was hoping that I could get him to send Amanda's journals.

[Amanda Lindhout]

But if Larinda wanted those precious journals, Adam said she'd have to pay.

[Julian Bezavali]

He wants to sell them Amanda's captivity journals for, like, $10,000.

[Patrick Hines]

And. And Lorinda wants them, and she wants them now. My thing is, like, keep the journals, you weirdo.

[Julian Bezavali]

Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, and. And block and where's the FBI?

[Julian Bezavali]

One million percent.

[Patrick Hines]

Keep those journals. Fucking burning.

[Julian Bezavali]

Why on earth would you engage? Like, just. Oh, my God.

[Patrick Hines]

But, I mean, the bigger point here is that the kidnapper tracked them down.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

That's the scary part.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

So they go to the Canadian cops and enter Larry Larin.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yes. What a name.

[Patrick Hines]

Veteran. He's all business. He ran priority undercover projects.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yes. And his mission is to find Adam. Find and get Adam is like. Is the mission.

[Patrick Hines]

And Kate Snow is like, find Adam if that's his real name. And I'm like, kate, I promise you it's not Adam.

[Julian Bezavali]

I assure you, Kate, you know better than this.

[Patrick Hines]

So now this is why Jen wanted us to cover this, because they need to go undercover. And now we meet a Canadian investigator who we've agreed to refer to by his cover name, AK this guy is sitting here and what he and Dateline both think is a disguise. He's in a brand new face.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

The makeup is insane. I've never seen anything like this before in my life.

[Julian Bezavali]

Unbelievable.

[Patrick Hines]

Jen Simard calls him Colonel Mustard. If you know, you know. And he's sitting there, there with all the seriousness of the world. Yes. Kate, thank you so much for calling me by my secret name.

[Julian Bezavali]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

With this face, and I. I'm so distracted by it.

[Julian Bezavali]

I know. Well, you know what? It reminded me.

[Patrick Hines]

Whatever happened to talking in shadow? Seriously, your voice.

[Julian Bezavali]

This guy, I mean, he wants to be on camera. It's what it comes down to. But remember the Dateline we covered where that guy was pretending to not be himself?

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julian Bezavali]

Remember that one?

[Patrick Hines]

Andre Cannon couldn't handle it. He was doing the fake act of.

[Julian Bezavali]

The mask, and he like the mask, and he was, like, in the wheelchair pretending to be Scottish, of all things, you know?

[Patrick Hines]

Don't you dare.

[Julian Bezavali]

Don't you dare. Not to my Andrew Cannon. But, like, the fake beard and mustache is so you can see where the.

[Patrick Hines]

Makeup'S been, like, caked on. I'm sure those lights are hot. We're going to a paradise island, and he's, like, walking the beach looking like this.

[Julian Bezavali]

I know. It is the worst scene ever.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, the, like, you're like, smile lines, but they're not smile lines. I know just where the makeup has been caked on.

[Julian Bezavali]

It just. You can see exactly what he looks like.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly what he looks like. And let me tell you, I'm not going to dox this guy, right? Two seconds of Googling, you find out who he is. Also, like the Robert Durst of it all, with that fucking stupid mask that he had. This is what I think it must have looked like when Robert Durst wore that stupid thing on his face.

[Julian Bezavali]

Totally. Oh. Oh, that mask. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It looks Ridiculous.

[Patrick Hines]

It looks ridiculous, but no one's saying it. And we all have to take it very seriously. And if you Google him, in two seconds, you'll find out who he is. So AK is the mask guy. AK reaches out to Adam, the terrorist.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And he says, look, I'm a PR consultant for Amanda's family.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Now, meanwhile, Amanda doesn't really know what's going on. On. All she knows is she reported the Facebook messages. There's some kind of investigation, whatever.

[Julian Bezavali]

She's going to, like, stay out of it. Amanda, like, you've been through enough, you know?

[Patrick Hines]

Now, AK and Adam talk for years. Yes. What on earth are they talking about? What could they possibly have in common?

[Julian Bezavali]

I know. And it's like, you know, and AK is smart. He's like, I just wanted to get this guy talking. Like, I don't know what's going to come of it, but the idea is that someday I'm going to win his trust and he's going to tell me something I can use.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. You need a lot of patience to do something like this. And AK does.

[Julian Bezavali]

Oh, God, I would not.

[Patrick Hines]

A lot of patience to sit in that makeup chair, too. It's neither here nor there.

[Julian Bezavali]

And at the end of that afternoon, he was like, you know what? This looks great.

[Patrick Hines]

This looks great.

[Julian Bezavali]

No one is going to know who I am.

[Patrick Hines]

I am a.

[Julian Bezavali]

No podcaster is going to Google me in two seconds.

[Patrick Hines]

Disguise. Like, the voice is not disguised. Like, please.

[Julian Bezavali]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

After years and years of like, hey, what's up? Nothing. What's up with you? Nothing. What's up with you?

[Julian Bezavali]

How's Somalia?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, like, great. How's Wherever you live? PR consultant for the woman I abused and tortured for 10 months. Like, what the fuck is this? I know Adam is an idiot, because Adam, eventually those. So remember, he reached out because he was like, hey, Amanda's mom, do you want those journals? If you want them, you have to pay.

[Kate Snow]

One day, I received an email from him which was a scan. Scanned copies of 16 letters.

[Amanda Lindhout]

They looked like letters, but they were actually pages ripped from Amanda's journals.

[Kate Snow]

I call him up and I ask him about this, and he says, yeah, I've sent you the letters. I don't need any money for that. Our relationship evolved to the point where he trusts me enough.

[Julian Bezavali]

Now he sends it to the guy for nothing. And this is where AK is like, oh, this guy's into me. Like this. We could actually do this.

[Patrick Hines]

We could do this. Because Adam's like, well, I don't want money. Yeah, I do. Want something, though? Also, he makes his caveat after he sends the journals. Fucking idiot. Stay stupid.

[Julian Bezavali]

He's like, here's the thing about me, AK I'm actually a scholar. He calls himself a scholar.

[Patrick Hines]

Guess what? If you have to call yourself that, I mean, I'm assuming you're not.

[Julian Bezavali]

He wants to write a book on the history of Somalia and he wants.

[Patrick Hines]

AK to help him do it right. And for the sake of the plot, AK Says yes. Now, in what world does a PR consultant also have ties in publishing? In this world.

[Julian Bezavali]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

It's like whatever Adam wants it to be.

[Julian Bezavali]

Oh, exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

Is what we're doing.

[Julian Bezavali]

Adam is in a hook, line and sinker.

[Patrick Hines]

A gift. This gift to the investigation. All of those years of bullshit emails paid off. Like, dealing with the time difference. Like, please.

[Julian Bezavali]

And it's also just like Adam. In what world is a guy working for the family of the woman that you tortured and raped going to be doing anything nice for? Well, how stupid do you have to be?

[Patrick Hines]

But how many, like, scams have we covered?

[Julian Bezavali]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

After all of those years, I'm sure it was. I don't trust those bitches. I don't work for them anymore. They fired me. I'm sure after over years.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

That's why Adam trusts this guy.

[Julian Bezavali]

What is it that you always say? The trash takes itself out.

[Patrick Hines]

Every single time.

[Julian Bezavali]

Every single time.

[Patrick Hines]

Single.

[Julian Bezavali]

Every single time.

[Patrick Hines]

Every single time. So Amanda's like, that tracks. Because I spent 10 miserable months with that piece of shit. He has the ego the size of Texas. Yeah, he definitely thinks he's a scholar. He definitely thinks he's the smartest guy in the room.

[Julian Bezavali]

Can I just say, yeah, it's great watching the trash take itself out.

[Patrick Hines]

It's great. If you're even paying. Who has time to even pay attention to what?

[Julian Bezavali]

Like, not me, you know, not me.

[Patrick Hines]

Who. So the next move is we have to meet this Adam guy in person.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

AK Has. For all the shit we talk about the disguise, like, he's very good at this. Because they make it think that it's Adam's idea to meet a person, which is how you have to deal with these people.

[Julian Bezavali]

Right? Right, Right, right, right.

[Patrick Hines]

So they decide to meet on this. This absolutely stunning, gorgeous island, Mauritius.

[Amanda Lindhout]

Four hours away from the kidnapper's homeland of Somalia. This island gem with its pristine beaches, crystal clear water, beautiful mountain vistas, and luxury resorts.

[Julian Bezavali]

I gotta tell you, four hours is too close to Somalia. Like, apparently, like, especially all the pirates. But truly, this is where like, the Europeans go for vacation. No, thank you. I'm not going there. It looks beautiful, but I'm not going there.

[Patrick Hines]

Stunning.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Now, this is all part of it, because AK Yes. The guy who's really an undercover agent wearing that disguise is now Adam's book agent.

[Julian Bezavali]

How stupid do you have to be?

[Patrick Hines]

So he flies him to this rich person's paradise. It's all about the razzle dazzle.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Because now Adam has, like, the government money, but he's saying, like, oh, I believe in you so much, I'm going to personally fly you out to the super rich, amazing, gorgeous island. Why don't we kind of talk about it and figure out what's going on? Because Adam is going to get sucked in by the luxury of it and fall for a Hill client. And guess what?

[Julian Bezavali]

Kate Snow's like, hey, Dateline, we gotta go there.

[Patrick Hines]

Nice perk of the job this week, Kate. These two are in the hot tub together.

[Julian Bezavali]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

We have pictures of them together.

[Julian Bezavali]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

Adam looks absolutely fucking thrilled. Now, of course, this guy's face is totally blurred. We have no idea. The undercover guy, I could tell you.

[Julian Bezavali]

Exactly what he looks like. I could pick him out of a lineup blindfolded.

[Patrick Hines]

There are photos of them arm in arm in the hot tub together. This man is a rapist. He is a terrorist.

[Julian Bezavali]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

This is what we have to do.

[Julian Bezavali]

The true scum of the earth. I don't think that we've talked enough about how Kate was like, we could hire a local crew to send us B roll. We could. I don't know, we could do like a green screen.

[Patrick Hines]

But the thing is, they're going 10 years after the fact. They really don't have to go.

[Julian Bezavali]

There's no reason for them to go.

[Patrick Hines]

But Kate, Kate's like that. Yes, there is. There's a very good reason. Because Kate Snow and AK are, like, walking around the property. He's like, that's the hot tub we were in. That's the lunch we had. That's where we had those Mai Tai. Like, just.

[Julian Bezavali]

Oh, my God.

[Patrick Hines]

And it's like, that face is gonna melt off you.

[Julian Bezavali]

I.

[Patrick Hines]

It looks a gorgeous sunny day.

[Julian Bezavali]

It's a beautiful sunny day. He's walking the beach in long pants. Who does that?

[Patrick Hines]

Dude?

[Julian Bezavali]

Like, come on.

[Patrick Hines]

Travel down the road.

[Julian Bezavali]

Back again, girl. Ritual is back. Look, we live in an age where there's been an explosion of supplements on the market. People making wild claims on the TikTok and the Instagram. Not with ritual girl.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, they like saying, oh, proprietary formula is. And then gatekeeping it and not telling you what's actually in it.

[Julian Bezavali]

And that's the whole. That's the opposite of what ritual was founded for. They wanted to be traceable and transparent.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And we're going to talk about the essential for women 18 +, which if you've been hearing about forever, if you're.

[Julian Bezavali]

A TCL listener, if today's your first day listening to TCO, welcome to Ritual. Yeah. The essential for women 18 plus is a multivitamin that contains nine key nutrients in two delayed release capsules designed for optimal absorption per day.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes. So they're designed to be gentle on the stomach. They have a minimum minty essence which I love so much. So it help. It makes taking your Maltese actually enjoyable.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah. And the results you get increased vitamin D levels by 43% and omega 3 DHA levels by 41% in just 12 weeks.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And essential for women is third party tested for heavy metals and clean label project certified. So this is what we were saying before. Like, you know what you're getting and you can trust what you're putting in your body on a regular basis.

[Julian Bezavali]

And this is why we've been working with them for years and years. We know and trust that.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Ritual multivitamins are vegan, non GMO project verified gluten and major allergen free and made traceable.

[Julian Bezavali]

So fam. No more shady business rituals. Essential for Women 18+ is a multivitamin you can actually trust.

[Patrick Hines]

Get 25 off your first month [e-mail].

[Julian Bezavali]

TCO start Ritual or add Essential for Women 18+ to your subscription today.

[Patrick Hines]

That's ritual.com TCO for 25% off.

[Julian Bezavali]

Deal of a lifetime.

[Patrick Hines]

What's with this whole, like, we're not going to tell you what's in it? Like, I don't think so.

[Julian Bezavali]

No. So gross.

[Patrick Hines]

So enough with the fun and games. We got to get the son of a bitch.

[Julian Bezavali]

Right?

[Patrick Hines]

So they want him to admit that he's a kidnapper.

[Julian Bezavali]

Just to remind you what's going on. AKA is convinced this guy Adam to come to Mauritius to like, solidify the book deal.

[Patrick Hines]

The book deal.

[Julian Bezavali]

But what he really and what he's gonna do. This is so genius.

[Kate Snow]

I was gonna sign a contract with him that laid out his and my relationship vis a vis the publisher.

[Amanda Lindhout]

The contract had a trap buried in it. Adam would have to disclose any wrongdoing in his past.

[Kate Snow]

It had a special paragraph in it that we had inserted a disclosure paragraph to encourage. Encourage him to tell us his story.

[Julian Bezavali]

I need him to admit any wrongdoing he's done. So he's got to, like, write that in the book contract or else this will be null and void.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. So, like. But it's a trap. So the contract. Part of the deal. This deal. Because you're a scholar and a gentleman and a scholar.

[Julian Bezavali]

Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

Part of the deal is that Adam needs to talk about all of his past.

[Julian Bezavali]

Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

And the publishers are like, we need this. This is routine. You understand? Right. Adam, are you a terrorist by any chance?

[Julian Bezavali]

Girl, are you a terrorist?

[Patrick Hines]

Like, what are you. What are you gonna talk about in this book, necessarily? So Adam does it?

[Julian Bezavali]

Cause of course.

[Patrick Hines]

Of course he does.

[Julian Bezavali]

He literally talks about Amanda. She can't be the only woman he did this to. No, but he talks specifically.

[Patrick Hines]

They get him because he's so proud of it.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And the thing that he is really proud of is that he's like, I'm the one that shot that horrible video that was on Al Jazeera.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yes, yes.

[Patrick Hines]

So he admits all of it. He's talking in great detail. He's an Islamic fundamentalist. He's bringing all of this out. He's telling them everything for the sake of this book deal.

[Julian Bezavali]

Now, the thing that makes me absolutely insane is, though, he's just admitted to the crimes, which is why this guy, AK put in the fucking. Taken 10 years to get the guy. It's why everyone's flown to Mauritius, including Kate Snow.

[Patrick Hines]

I know. Ten years later, ten years later.

[Julian Bezavali]

But none of it matters because of the laws of Mauritius. It prohibits AK from recording the confession. So he gets the guy to say that he did it, but it doesn't matter because it's not recorded and it can't be used in a court of law.

[Patrick Hines]

No one sort of, like, check the laws out before we flew over.

[Julian Bezavali]

That is my big question. Like, you got. You literally got the. Imagine you've got to go back to Amanda and the mom and be like, he admitted it. Unfortunately, we can't get.

[Patrick Hines]

There's nothing we can do. There's nothing we can do, because what happens is that. That AK goes back to Canada and Adam goes back to Somalia.

[Julian Bezavali]

I'm telling you, nobody looked into these laws before they got there.

[Patrick Hines]

You better do it now.

[Julian Bezavali]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

Moving forward henceforth, like, whenever you go.

[Julian Bezavali]

To someplace, if you're ever trying to trick a Somali terrorist into admitting his war crimes, can you look into the laws of the country where you're going to get this idiot to do it?

[Patrick Hines]

Can you make sure we can get him? He tells us everything. So proudly and brags about the video On Al Jazeera, like, are you kidding me?

[Julian Bezavali]

And then you just got to let him go. And I love that AK is like pretending like it's no big deal. So.

[Patrick Hines]

Big deal.

[Julian Bezavali]

Like, nobody fucked up here. I said, what was it like?

[Patrick Hines]

We had to. So unfortunately, Kate, we had to let him go. Like, no, unfortunately, no.

[Julian Bezavali]

I mean, it makes no sense to me. We're back to years passing.

[Patrick Hines]

Years are going by now they want to get Adam to Canada.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

They want the confession in Canada because.

[Julian Bezavali]

They'Re like, can we do it right if we're going to do this?

[Patrick Hines]

So here's what we're going to do. We're going to keep up this book agent.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

So Adam already signed the contract, so it's not actually that hard to get them where they need them because all they have to do is tell him that it has to do with the publisher and Adam is on his way.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah. And I love that they sit down with like the head honcho cop who's like, normally we try to keep terrorists out of Canada.

[Patrick Hines]

Right? Here's a little flaw in the plan.

[Julian Bezavali]

Exactly. He's flying an international terrorist into Canada.

[Patrick Hines]

On the taxpayers to, like, wine and dine them a little bit. So they're like, lots of hoops needed to be jumped through. We won't get into it.

[Julian Bezavali]

I was like, well, that's a really good point. I'm glad we're talking about so.

[Patrick Hines]

But all of these hoops take time.

[Amanda Lindhout]

Coordinating and planning an itinerary for a kidnapper would take time and threaten the operation. Once again, AK played the long game.

[Kate Snow]

I kept on putting him off, saying, we will be meeting with the publisher soon. And then at one point, I had to fake a heart attack.

[Amanda Lindhout]

I'm sorry, you had to fake a heart attack?

[Kate Snow]

I faked a heart attack.

[Patrick Hines]

All I had to do was email him I had a heart attack. Talk soon. And that's it.

[Julian Bezavali]

Kate, though, goes, you faked a heart attack?

[Patrick Hines]

And he's like, yes, I sent an email.

[Julian Bezavali]

It's all part of the day's lives.

[Patrick Hines]

You have to understand this guy's an idiot.

[Julian Bezavali]

Right, Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

He won't believe anything. He thinks I'm a book publisher. So finally, finally, finally, this terrorist is on a plane to Canada.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yes. And I just wrote this fucking idiot. How do you. How are you? Have you ever googled your publisher? Have you ever googled your book agent, you idiot?

[Patrick Hines]

Or if he. If he has and nothing comes up, AK has every line. He knows exactly how to be like, well, no, my enemies, my this, my that. How many times have we done this?

[Julian Bezavali]

No, you're right.

[Patrick Hines]

It's a Tinder swindler.

[Julian Bezavali]

God damn it. I would fall for it hook, line and sinker.

[Patrick Hines]

My enemies, by this, by that, they are in cahoots. They are in this together.

[Julian Bezavali]

Oh, God.

[Patrick Hines]

So they rent out a conference room at, like, the local Marriott or whatever.

[Julian Bezavali]

No, no, no. It's the Hilton Garden Inn. He thinks he's going to his fancy publishing deal meeting in the boardroom at the Hilton Garden Inn.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. It's Adam the terrorist, AKA the book agent. And then quote the publisher, which is yet another undercover agent I know, just.

[Julian Bezavali]

Best friends with ak.

[Patrick Hines]

So now everything's being filmed. Everything's being recorded, Ron. Canadian soil. Did everyone triple check the laws? Can we use this shit?

[Julian Bezavali]

Oh, my God.

[Patrick Hines]

So as a K, the book agent is introducing Adam. He's laying it on super thick. He's like, oh, this is my star. I love this guy. He's going to make us all rich.

[Julian Bezavali]

He's got the finger guns total, like.

[Patrick Hines]

Out of, like, old school, like vaudeville style. He's out of his mind. He's gonna make us all rich. You're a star, baby. June, you're a star. So they basically have a. Have like a redo of the conversation they had on the island.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Only now it's on the record.

[Julian Bezavali]

Right. So they have Adam and we get to see it.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. So now Adam's explaining everything he's ever done wrong. He's a terrorist. He's a. He's an Al Qaeda fanboy.

[Julian Bezavali]

And he's talking about Amanda specifically, again, about the video.

[Patrick Hines]

He's so proud of that stupid video. It's not stupid. It's horrifying.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

He describes the torture in detail, the terrorism in detail, the whole thing. Only this time it's being recorded. And thankfully, we can use it against him.

[Julian Bezavali]

I mean, can you believe we had to do this twice?

[Patrick Hines]

It's unbelievable.

[Julian Bezavali]

It's. It's now all. They signed the contracts again. Everyone is thrilled. This guy thinks he's being let out of the conference room for a tour of Ottawa. No.

[Patrick Hines]

What happens is Adam and AK are both arrested, which is a great move.

[Julian Bezavali]

It's a great move. I love it when they do that.

[Patrick Hines]

So now it's like, see, we're in this together. Like, don't worry about that uniform.

[Kate Snow]

Police handcuffed us both. I put.

[Amanda Lindhout]

Adam must have been tonight.

[Kate Snow]

He was. You could see in his face that he. He was clearly thrown by this. And I had to play up, you know, get your hands off My client. What are you doing here? This is ridiculous. And they handcuffed us both, led us off in different directions. I went for a beer, he went to jail.

[Patrick Hines]

I went for a beer, he went to bed. Like, okay.

[Julian Bezavali]

Oh, my God, that stupid fake face. I mean, oh, God.

[Patrick Hines]

He sat there and Dateline was like, for hours. We're definitely doing this.

[Julian Bezavali]

I do love the question of, like, why don't we just do this in shadow?

[Patrick Hines]

But whose face is it? Like, whose idea was Kate Snow? Like, you know what we can do? We have a whole fake face team on loan. So would you like to do that?

[Julian Bezavali]

Uh huh.

[Patrick Hines]

Like when you're, when you're like, yes, Dateline, I will sit down with you.

[Julian Bezavali]

But unfortunately I'm gonna need.

[Patrick Hines]

Is it kind of like, okay, we can do shadow, we can disguise your voice. We have the fake face. We're Dateline.

[Julian Bezavali]

We can do anything, baby. We can do anything.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, has everyone been offered the fake face and only this guy took them up on it?

[Julian Bezavali]

Do you think it's a wig or you think it's a real hair?

[Patrick Hines]

It's a wig. Does he travel around with this? Does he say, I will do this, Kate Snow, but only if I wear my fake face.

[Julian Bezavali]

I am going to need a full team of fake faces.

[Patrick Hines]

I love the idea of Keith being like, well, we have a fake. Let me show you what we have in the fake face department. And everyone's like, no, I'll take the.

[Julian Bezavali]

Voice, the voice distortion, and the shadow.

[Patrick Hines]

And shoot me from behind.

[Julian Bezavali]

I. Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

I don't need the fake face thing. How long is this going to be, Kate? I got like, I don't really have time for the fake face.

[Julian Bezavali]

While we're talking about Keith. He's never going to die. There is like 25 seasons of that Dateline originals podcast where, like, it's like.

[Patrick Hines]

40 seasons of Dateline, so.

[Julian Bezavali]

I know, but it's just like, Keith, you've been. He's looked like an 80 year old for 100 years.

[Patrick Hines]

God bless him.

[Julian Bezavali]

God bless him. And he's so good at it.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, man.

[Julian Bezavali]

And he says things that only he can get away with.

[Patrick Hines]

Of course. You know, obviously, like, Keith's not sitting down with the fake face guy, you.

[Julian Bezavali]

Know, not a chance in hell.

[Patrick Hines]

So this took seven years.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah. I mean, unbelievable.

[Patrick Hines]

But now there's a trial.

[Lorinda Lindhout]

I'm going to have to testify, and I'm going to have to face this man in court.

[Patrick Hines]

You'd have to see him.

[Lorinda Lindhout]

Yeah.

[Amanda Lindhout]

Before that could happen, Amanda would have to assist the prosecution team in Building its case against the kidnapper.

[Lorinda Lindhout]

A group of us would meet every couple of months for two and a half years.

[Amanda Lindhout]

Wow.

[Julian Bezavali]

This is where it gets really real for her because she's, like, thrilled that they got him, but, like, she's just. She's truly wondering if she's even gonna be able to do it.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. And so the lead prosecutor is Croft Michaelson.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And he's just like, do you know what was a real treasure tr of those fucking emails between AK and the terrorists?

[Julian Bezavali]

700 emails, he said between the two of them. It's also a two year lead up to the trial. So for like every couple of months, for two years, Amanda's meeting with the. With the cops to sort of build the case and go over what she's going to testify. But she is saying she did really appreciate that they went slowly with her.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

And they sort of let her tell the story in her own time.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

Because, you know, she seems to have done a lot of work and seems to be healed and. And also talking about it in front of your captor and rapist must be. I can't even imagine it.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, I know. And she wrote a book.

[Julian Bezavali]

And she wrote a book.

[Patrick Hines]

So Adam, of course, is not this guy's real name.

[Julian Bezavali]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

He has the audacity to plead not guilty. Who is the poor son of a bitch who has to represent this guy?

[Julian Bezavali]

I mean, honestly, when they said that he pleaded not guilty, like, my, my, like, steam out of my ears.

[Patrick Hines]

You just got to do that thing as a defense attorney where you're like, I guess we'll just plead or whatever. We'll do some kind of a. How do you stand there and really, really.

[Julian Bezavali]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

Defend what? He admitted all of it twice. Like, come on.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So it's October 5, 2017. The trial begins, and Amanda, like, gathers her strength and faces this piece of shit. And she only testifies for one day.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Which I'm sure was. She was pretty grateful about.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah. And she was saying, seeing him the way they do it in Canada, the defense is like in a box. So he's like in a cell kind of in the courtroom. And she's like, you're the prisoner now. You know, like, it was like, it was a healing reversal for her.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, they're playing all the recorded phone calls between this guy and her mother.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yes. Three days. And the mom sits there for all.

[Patrick Hines]

Of it and has to listen to them again.

[Julian Bezavali]

I don't think I could do that.

[Patrick Hines]

No.

[Julian Bezavali]

No.

[Patrick Hines]

So, you know, these women had to relive all of that trauma in court.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

But also by making their case. I mean, obviously.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah. And like, his big defense is that he was. He had been taken hostage himself and he was forced to do what he did. And I'm like, fudge that.

[Patrick Hines]

Fuck that.

[Julian Bezavali]

Like, that is just not. Nobody believes that.

[Patrick Hines]

No. But like this. The terrorist was found guilty of kidnapping. Just kidnapping.

[Julian Bezavali]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

And sentenced to 15 years. Because I guess what. They were arguing. I don't agree. But they were arguing like, we can't really prove he did it. Whose voice is that? Who's this? We have the phone, whatever.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

But the kidnapping, we got him on and he was sentenced to 15 years.

[Julian Bezavali]

It's not enough time, but it gets him off the street for a minute.

[Patrick Hines]

You know, Amanda's just saying it was a harrowing, like, years, long journey.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah. And, you know, Kate asks Amanda if she's forgiven him and she says, I.

[Lorinda Lindhout]

Can'T say yes or no to that question because it's not a forgiving because Adam deserves to be forgiven. But I deserve to have the freedom in my life of not being full of that anger all the time and keep pointing my feet towards forgiveness.

[Julian Bezavali]

I deserve to not live with that anger in my life. And I keep pointing my feet towards forgiveness because forgiveness releases you of having to think about this piece of shit every day.

[Patrick Hines]

So does indifference, which is interesting.

[Julian Bezavali]

Difference. Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

So, yeah. And AK is still sitting there in the disguise, which is insane to me.

[Julian Bezavali]

It's just great.

[Patrick Hines]

It's insane to me. And because no one's saying it.

[Julian Bezavali]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

No one's talking about it.

[Julian Bezavali]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

Kate Snow said it once. And she's like, you're here in disguise to protect your identity. I get it. Like, I could have used a little like, two camera look from Kate.

[Julian Bezavali]

I know. Next time I come to a recording, I'm going to come in that discussion.

[Patrick Hines]

Can you imagine?

[Julian Bezavali]

But it would be. I'm wearing it right now.

[Patrick Hines]

I needed Kate to tell us. Like, we're in this together.

[Julian Bezavali]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

She knows that we know that she knows that we know kind of thing.

[Julian Bezavali]

Totally.

[Patrick Hines]

It would have been a little like. Because you feel crazy when you're just like.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah. You're like, why is that guy so.

[Patrick Hines]

Weirdly, when we're talking about this really serious, like, horrifying situation.

[Julian Bezavali]

No, that's exactly right. It feels inappropriate.

[Patrick Hines]

It feels like, are you laughing at me in some weird way? Like, am I not in on the joke here? What is the joke? None of this is funny.

[Julian Bezavali]

Well, thanks, Jen Simard for the wreck. That was a wild ride today.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, it's called the Capture. Also, Nigel Brennan has a book as well.

[Julian Bezavali]

Oh, really? So they both have books?

[Patrick Hines]

They both have books. He wrote a book with his sister and sister in law.

[Julian Bezavali]

Oh, wow.

[Patrick Hines]

It's an interesting. There's just a lot there. Yeah, there's a lot more to the story for sure.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah. Fam, Join our Facebook group, please. We got 59,000 people in there making friends, being cool, posting memes, talking about the episodes, just hanging out. Yeah. If you have Dayline recommendations for us, pop in the Facebook group and let us know what they are.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, let us know.

[Julian Bezavali]

All right, fam. We love you.

[Patrick Hines]

We love you. Thanks, Gensomart.

[Julian Bezavali]

Thanks. Bye.