426: Web of Death: Facebook Live - True Crime Obsessed

Summary5 min read

Podcast Summary: True Crime Obsessed - Episode 426: Web of Death: Facebook Live

Release Date: May 1, 2025
Title: Web of Death: Facebook Live
Host(s): Jillian Benzavale & Patrick Hines
Description: In this gripping bonus episode, Jillian and Patrick delve into the harrowing true crime case of Nikisha Hodges Hawkins. Blending detailed recounting with heartfelt commentary, they explore the events surrounding Nikisha's tragic death, the family's relentless pursuit of justice, and the pivotal role social media played in finally bringing the perpetrator to account.

1. Introduction to the Case

The episode opens with Jillian and Patrick introducing a bonus segment from their "Web of Death" series, focusing on Episode Five titled "Facebook Live." They set the stage by presenting the victim, Nikisha Hodges Hawkins, and her family, providing listeners with a personal connection to the story.

Notable Quote:
Patrick Hines [01:41]: "Welcome to a bonus episode, everyone. We promised, and here we are."

2. Family Background and Night of the Murder

Calvin Hawkins, Nikisha's father, is introduced as a devoted and emotionally expressive parent. The family, consisting of Nikisha, her mother Janice, and her brother Kenyatta, is portrayed as close-knit and loving.

On July 24, 2011, Nikisha attends a birthday party themed as a "bus stoplight" where tensions escalate, leading to gunfire.

Notable Quotes:
Kenyatta Hawkins [01:52]: "That night at that party. She left the house, never came back."
Calvin Hawkins [02:11]: "I just wanna protect my family. That's the only thing I ever wanted to do."

3. The Tragic Event

As the party deteriorates into chaos with fights breaking out, gunshots ring out, resulting in Nikisha being fatally shot. The immediate aftermath leaves the family devastated, with Calvin grappling with immense guilt for allowing Nikisha to attend the party.

Notable Quotes:
Kenyatta Hawkins [15:00]: "He is 13 years old and he recognizes one of the screams as his cousin. So he thinks his cousin has been shot."
Janice Hawkins [16:03]: "It was hard, but she says the trial was therapeutic."

4. Investigation Challenges

Despite having 150 witnesses, the investigation stalls as community members, many of whom are Black, distrust the police and fear retaliation. Witnesses either remain silent or recant their statements, leading to a cold case.

Notable Quotes:
Patrick Hines [22:31]: "A lot of these kids are black. So they're not going to trust the cops."
Jillian Benzavale [25:02]: "We're back to square one."

5. Calvin Hawkins' Advocacy via Facebook Live

Frustrated with the lack of progress, Calvin takes to Facebook Live to voice his frustrations and demand justice for his daughter. Initially unaware of the platform's potential, his raw and honest broadcasts begin to garner significant attention.

Notable Quotes:
Calvin Hawkins [34:05]: "I see a button that says live. And he clicks on it and he goes... I'm just doing it."
Patrick Hines [34:33]: "Calvin goes live outside the police department. He's like, these people won't help me, man."

6. Community Mobilization and Media Involvement

Calvin's persistent live streams attract thousands, including media attention. Reporter Jesse Schultz covers his story, amplifying public awareness and pressuring authorities to reopen the case. This surge in attention leads to the assignment of new detectives to the investigation.

Notable Quotes:
Jillian Benzavale [37:01]: "It's unbelievable. He just hit a button and spoke his truth."
Patrick Hines [38:00]: "Detectives Jillian with a J and Anna get to work."

7. Breakthrough and Legal Proceedings

New corroborating statements emerge, identifying Charles Guerin as the shooter. Despite initial setbacks, including a witness recanting their statement, detectives uncover critical evidence through overlooked photo booth pictures, leading to Guerin's conviction.

Notable Quotes:
Calvin Hawkins [39:30]: "And he did it out of fr and rage."
Jillian Benzavale [54:44]: "We got him."

8. Conclusion and Impact on the Family

With Guerin sentenced to 50 years and the appeal denied, the family begins to heal. Calvin reflects on his journey from anger to advocacy, finding solace in his community and the closure of the case. The episode highlights the power of persistence, community support, and the impact of social media in seeking justice.

Notable Quotes:
Patrick Hines [58:14]: "He spews his truth, and now here we are. If he made it happen, without him, we would not be here 100%."
Kenyatta Hawkins [57:56]: "He is able to step outside of himself and see what he did for Keisha and for our family."

9. Final Reflections

Jillian and Patrick wrap up the episode by commending Calvin's unwavering dedication and the family's resilience. They emphasize the importance of community support in solving cold cases and acknowledge the emotional toll such cases take on the families involved.

Notable Quote:
Jillian Benzavale [59:25]: "There's no closure, but they are so lucky that they all have each other."

Key Takeaways:

Community and Persistence: Calvin Hawkins' use of Facebook Live illustrates how persistent advocacy can mobilize community support and draw media attention, crucial in reopening and solving cold cases.
Challenges in Investigation: The episode underscores systemic issues like distrust in law enforcement and the difficulties in witness cooperation, highlighting broader societal challenges in genuine justice.
Family Resilience: The unwavering support within Nikisha's family showcases the strength and resilience needed to navigate through immense grief and loss.

Overall Conclusion:
"Web of Death: Facebook Live" serves as a powerful narrative of loss, injustice, and the relentless pursuit of truth. Through detailed storytelling and emotional depth, True Crime Obsessed sheds light on the complexities of seeking justice in the digital age, celebrating the enduring spirit of a family determined to honor their loved one.

Notable Quotes Overview:

Calvin Hawkins [02:11]: "I just wanna protect my family. That's the only thing I ever wanted to do."
Kenyatta Hawkins [15:00]: "He is 13 years old and he recognizes one of the screams as his cousin..."
Patrick Hines [22:31]: "A lot of these kids are black. So they're not going to trust the cops."
Calvin Hawkins [34:05]: "I see a button that says live..."
Jillian Benzavale [37:01]: "It's unbelievable. He just hit a button and spoke his truth."
Calvin Hawkins [39:30]: "And he did it out of fr and rage."
Patric Hines [58:14]: "He spews his truth, and now here we are..."
Patrick Hines [58:38]: "This is it."
Jillian Benzavale [59:25]: "There's no closure, but they are so lucky that they all have each other."

This detailed summary encapsulates the essence of Episode 426, providing listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the case, the family's journey, and the pivotal moments that led to justice for Nikisha Hodges Hawkins.

Loading summary

Transcript836 lines

[00:00]
Jillian Benzavale
It's that thing where I know one line from the New Chapel Rowan country song, and it's just on a loop. It's just on a loop.
[00:06]
Patrick Hines
What is it?
[00:07]
Jillian Benzavale
Take it like a taker. Nice. That's the whole line.
[00:11]
Patrick Hines
Country's having a moment. Just saying.
[00:13]
Jillian Benzavale
Country's having a moment. Hi. Jillian Benzavale.
[00:23]
Patrick Hines
Hello. Patrick Hines.
[00:24]
Jillian Benzavale
How's everyone doing? How are you doing?
[00:25]
Patrick Hines
I'm doing okay. You know, I'm doing all right.
[00:28]
Jillian Benzavale
Okay, good.
[00:29]
Patrick Hines
Just have to brace myself there for a minute. Yeah.
[00:32]
Jillian Benzavale
Famine, just a reminder to join us over there on the Facebook group, but if you're not into that, you got another option. You want to tell them about it?
[00:37]
Patrick Hines
What?
[00:37]
Jillian Benzavale
The Discord.
[00:38]
Patrick Hines
Oh, the Discord. Yes. I love the Discord. We have a Discord, and it's really great. And if you want to go to it, you can just follow the link in our show notes.
[00:46]
Jillian Benzavale
What's it like in there?
[00:47]
Patrick Hines
It's really fun that we have all these different channels, so we have, like, a. Just a general true crime channel. We have, like, a regular episode discussion. Patreon episode discussion. We have a book club discussion.
[00:57]
Jillian Benzavale
It's not that I'm not allowed in there. It's just I haven't. I don't really.
[01:00]
Patrick Hines
You don't want to be in there?
[01:01]
Jillian Benzavale
I don't really want to, but I will. I just. It's not really my thing, but I will.
[01:05]
Patrick Hines
It's fine. People can have different things.
[01:07]
Jillian Benzavale
They like to have a place where they can go hang out with, like, their cool best friend, Jillian.
[01:09]
Patrick Hines
Okay, cool. I don't. I love being there.
[01:11]
Jillian Benzavale
Maybe it's kind of like the planet where we have to live. Like, we want to be sent for.
[01:14]
Patrick Hines
Yeah, that would be great. Also, someone in the Discord. I didn't ask them if I could say their name, so I'm not gonna.
[01:20]
Jillian Benzavale
Okay.
[01:20]
Patrick Hines
But they were at Malice at the Palace. No, they were at the game.
[01:24]
Jillian Benzavale
They were. Do they. Did they say they can see themselves in any of the footage?
[01:28]
Patrick Hines
No, we didn't get there yet, but that's amazing that they were there.
[01:32]
Jillian Benzavale
Wow.
[01:32]
Patrick Hines
Their relative had season tickets. I don't want to say too much because I didn't ask permission to talk about it, but. Yeah.
[01:38]
Jillian Benzavale
Holy. Holy macaroli.
[01:40]
Patrick Hines
Yeah.
[01:40]
Jillian Benzavale
What are we talking about today, girl?
[01:41]
Patrick Hines
Welcome to a bonus episode, everyone. We promised, and here we are. We're doing more. We love these bonus episodes. This is from that series, Web of Death, that we really like and appreciate. This is episode five. It's called Facebook Live.
[01:52]
Kenyatta Hawkins
That night at that party. She left the house, never came back.
[01:57]
Patrick Hines
Nikisha Hodges Hawkins was shot and killed.
[02:00]
Jillian Benzavale
When someone opened fire on a crowd after a birthday party.
[02:03]
Calvin Hawkins
Shockingly, no one saw. Stepped forward to identify who shot and killed Nikisha.
[02:11]
Kenyatta Hawkins
It said live on my page. So I pushed it. If I would not do this for Keisha, I would be less than a man.
[02:19]
Calvin Hawkins
It moved the community. It absolutely did.
[02:22]
Patrick Hines
Calvon, to me, seemed like he was not going to stop until he got an answer.
[02:28]
Kenyatta Hawkins
I'm gon get justice.
[02:31]
Jillian Benzavale
We're starting at the top with Calvin Hawkins. He is the dad of our victim here.
[02:36]
Patrick Hines
Yeah. Our victim is Nikisha Hodges Hawkins.
[02:38]
Jillian Benzavale
This man puts all other dads to shame. This man is really great. Dad of dads.
[02:43]
Patrick Hines
He's really great.
[02:44]
Jillian Benzavale
He just wears his emotions on his sleeve. He openly cries, which I think is, like, it's such a good sign of, like, emotional intelligence.
[02:49]
Patrick Hines
Yeah. He's been through it. And he, as he says, plays Chestnut checkers.
[02:54]
Jillian Benzavale
He is. This guy is just amazing. I was so happy to spend an hour with him.
[02:57]
Patrick Hines
Yeah.
[02:57]
Jillian Benzavale
But he tells us what his family was like. He said they were a very happy family. Family of five. It was just them. It was. He says it was his wife, Janice, Little Cal Kenyatta, the brother. And Keisha, also known as Nikisha is like her birth name.
[03:10]
Patrick Hines
Yeah. Her friends and family call her Keisha.
[03:12]
Janice Hawkins
Yeah.
[03:12]
Kenyatta Hawkins
Keisha always pull practical jokes on you, but she also was smart. That was my heart.
[03:19]
Jillian Benzavale
Practical joker.
[03:20]
Patrick Hines
I know.
[03:21]
Jillian Benzavale
I don't know about that.
[03:22]
Patrick Hines
What do you mean?
[03:23]
Jillian Benzavale
My favorite thing to watch on Instagram Reels or TikTok are, like, the reels of people, like, falling down driveways. I love that. Like, those are my favorite.
[03:31]
Patrick Hines
But, like, on ice. Like slipping on ice.
[03:32]
Jillian Benzavale
Yeah, like slipping on ice.
[03:34]
Patrick Hines
Like, who's having trouble walking down their own?
[03:36]
Jillian Benzavale
Or they fall off the porch or the snow falls in their head.
[03:39]
Patrick Hines
You like watching people get hurt?
[03:40]
Jillian Benzavale
I. No, no, no, no. If they get hurt, I can't enjoy it. But if they just, like, slip in, they look silly. Like, that's my favorite thing. But what I. The practical joke ones are also like, the ones where they're hiding behind a door and they jump out at people.
[03:50]
Patrick Hines
I know.
[03:51]
Jillian Benzavale
I love those so much, but I don't think I'd want people to do that to me.
[03:54]
Patrick Hines
I don't think anyone really wants anyone to do it to them. I certainly don't.
[03:58]
Jillian Benzavale
Or like, the people with the Saran Wrap over the door at face level, and they just walk into the Saran Wrap.
[04:04]
Patrick Hines
We can do better. Can't we just feels a little like low hanging fruit to me.
[04:09]
Jillian Benzavale
But it's like watching somebody do it or like when they, when you surprise somebody with an air horn, like you walk up behind them with an air.
[04:14]
Patrick Hines
That would like, I would never talk to you again.
[04:17]
Jillian Benzavale
Well, there are people you do it to and there are people you don't do it to me.
[04:19]
Patrick Hines
Like, I would never speak to you again.
[04:21]
Jillian Benzavale
No, I would never do that to you.
[04:24]
Patrick Hines
That's a level of like annoyance that I don't think you ever come down from. I think you just sort of go there.
[04:28]
Jillian Benzavale
I know. But anyway, she was a big practical joker. I just want to know like, what were her go to practical joke was, that's all.
[04:35]
Patrick Hines
Yeah, I would like to know what, like kind of what her style is.
[04:37]
Jillian Benzavale
Because I think we're talking whoopee cushions.
[04:39]
Patrick Hines
I think there's a fun style. I would, I would laugh at the whoopee cushion for sure. I think that's very funny. That's kind of like, let's go back to basics. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. The old whoopee cushion thing never fails.
[04:50]
Jillian Benzavale
There's also this lady on Instagram reels who has like a, like fakes a thick New England accent and just calls random numbers in New England. And people, like old ladies will like, my mom will answer the phone and she'll be like, well, how you doing? And they'll just. The lady will think, well, but like, the people who answer the phone are like, like, I think that she's fooling them into like, making them think that they've forgotten who this is or they should know who this is. So now they just have this, like chat for five minutes. So good.
[05:17]
Patrick Hines
So it's harmless, I guess.
[05:18]
Jillian Benzavale
So harmless. And they hang out.
[05:21]
Patrick Hines
So it's not the Jerky Boys, if anyone knows that reference.
[05:24]
Jillian Benzavale
The Jerky Boys.
[05:27]
Patrick Hines
Travel down the road back again.
[05:29]
Jillian Benzavale
Girl Cure is a new sponsor. So get this. Cure is a plant based, hydrating electrolyte drink mix with no added sug.
[05:36]
Patrick Hines
It's natural, it's delicious, it's convenient. You're keeping you and your whole family hydrated without all that artificial stuff, which you know, we don't do here.
[05:43]
Jillian Benzavale
No. And you're saying Mike is really loving this stuff. Mike's a runner, as you all know.
[05:47]
Patrick Hines
Yeah, he's a runner now. And it's also like getting really hot. So it's really important to stay hydrated and you can forget to do it. And Mike is one of those people, he thinks plain water is just boring. So cure is really helping him. It's only 25 calories per serving. There are no added sugars, no artificial sweeteners.
[06:03]
Jillian Benzavale
Yes. It's the cleanest way to hydrate. It's refreshing. It's delicious. They have incredible flavors, including berry, pomegranate, strawberry, kiwi, lemonade, watermelon, tropical punch, blood orange, and lime.
[06:15]
Patrick Hines
Yeah. So this is for people if you're having trouble drinking enough water, if you're having trouble staying hydrated, Cure just adds a little bit of flavor to make your water taste better.
[06:23]
Jillian Benzavale
Yeah, it's a great way to start your day. Whether you need a morning boost or electrolytes for your workout, it's something to keep you going during the day. Cure fits into any routine.
[06:31]
Patrick Hines
And not to, like, pile on or anything, but 75% of Americans are dehydrated, and we don't drink enough water or electrolytes. So I'm not saying it's you, but it's probably you. So we got to get hydrated.
[06:39]
Jillian Benzavale
So, fam. Hydration goes beyond just drinking water. It's about replenishing the electrolytes we lose through sweat, sleep, alcohol, and daily activities.
[06:47]
Patrick Hines
Water alone isn't enough to do the job. That's why you need to try Cure, the electrolyte drink mix that tastes as amazing as it makes you feel.
[06:53]
Jillian Benzavale
For TCO listeners, Cure is offering 20% off your first order.
[06:57]
Patrick Hines
Stay hydrated and feel your best by visiting cure hydration.com TCO and using promo code TCO at checkout.
[07:03]
Jillian Benzavale
That's cure hydration.com TCO & use code TCO for 20% off your first order. Look, if it's good enough for Mike, it's good enough for all of us.
[07:10]
Patrick Hines
It's so good. I am telling you that. Live. Like, the tropical flavors are so good. They're so refreshing. So Calvin is a protector. He says. He says, I just want to protect my family. That's the only thing I ever wanted to do. So it's July 24, 2011, and Nikisha comes out all dressed up for a party.
[07:30]
Janice Hawkins
Yeah.
[07:30]
Patrick Hines
And her father's like, excuse me, where do you think you're going at this hour?
[07:33]
Jillian Benzavale
And he will tell us, like, later on that he's a very protective, almost overprotective dad.
[07:38]
Patrick Hines
Yeah.
[07:39]
Jillian Benzavale
Always wants to keep his kids out of danger, you know, like. Like any parent.
[07:43]
Kenyatta Hawkins
And Nikisha's like, Nikisha came out of the room dressed. I said, where you think you going? Cause I'm seeing the time, like, where you think you're going? She's like, I'm going to popo house. I said, I know you lying.
[07:56]
Jillian Benzavale
And he knows she's lying, but he's going to, like, let it sit slide this time.
[08:00]
Patrick Hines
Now, as Calvin is telling us about this, we're seeing texts on screen between two people, and we don't know who, but I'm assuming it's Nikisha and someone else saying, I hope you're coming to the party.
[08:10]
Janice Hawkins
Yeah.
[08:10]
Patrick Hines
What are you wearing? I'm obviously wearing red. I'm thinking I'm wearing yellow. You'll find out tonight. I'm like, what's with these colors? We'll get into it. Yeah, Janice, Keisha's mother is here.
[08:19]
Jillian Benzavale
Right.
[08:20]
Patrick Hines
And Keisha didn't tell them about the party because Janice says she knew she wouldn't be allowed to go.
[08:23]
Jillian Benzavale
Right.
[08:24]
Patrick Hines
And her parents are like, we can't pick every battle. They don't pick this one. It's like, I get it.
[08:29]
Jillian Benzavale
Right.
[08:29]
Patrick Hines
They let her leave. But Calvin, Kevon had a gut feeling that something was wrong. He goes, I just knew it in my heart.
[08:34]
Jillian Benzavale
And he says, I let her go and she never came back.
[08:37]
Patrick Hines
Yeah.
[08:37]
Jillian Benzavale
I mean, this is the most extreme example. And because like every. Like anytime your kid leaves the house, you're gonna have that feeling. You know what I mean? So it's not like it was. I'm just saying to Calvin, like, he will beat himself up about this for years and years and years to come. And I wish he wouldn't do that to himself.
[08:54]
Patrick Hines
I know, I know.
[08:54]
Jillian Benzavale
You know, but because he had that one thought of, like, I shouldn't have let her go. And something tragic really did happen. He blames himself.
[09:01]
Patrick Hines
Yeah. I maintain he can't pick every battle. You know, what are you gonna do?
[09:04]
Jillian Benzavale
I'm the teenager of not picking every battle.
[09:06]
Patrick Hines
Come on. So Kenyatta is Keisha's brother.
[09:09]
Janice Hawkins
Yeah.
[09:10]
Patrick Hines
And he's here and he also went to the party, and he was 13 years old at the time.
[09:13]
Jillian Benzavale
And he's describing, like, a lot of.
[09:15]
Skyisha Pender
High schoolers and classmates. People older than me, obviously. I was only like 13 at the time. Michigan City's quite a small town, so everybody knows everybody. So you knew everybody who was there when I arrived? Everybody was having fun. It was like a stoplight party is what the theme of it was.
[09:34]
Jillian Benzavale
So explain what this party is.
[09:37]
Patrick Hines
So it's at Kruger Memorial hall in Michigan City?
[09:40]
Jillian Benzavale
Uh huh.
[09:41]
Patrick Hines
It's a spotlight party. And I was like, oh, so that's where the red and yellow reference comes from.
[09:46]
Jillian Benzavale
What does that mean? Because I have it down. He said it was a bus stoplight themed party. So is it like, traffic lights?
[09:53]
Patrick Hines
I guess it's like you just dress in the colors. Cause there was like, oh, what are you wearing? I'm wearing red. I'm wearing yellow. I'm googling. Spotlight party.
[09:59]
Jillian Benzavale
Well, like an interesting idea for a party.
[10:02]
Patrick Hines
Yeah. It feels like. What are we missing?
[10:06]
Jillian Benzavale
I think we're missing something.
[10:07]
Patrick Hines
Okay.
[10:08]
Jillian Benzavale
Oh, she found an answer.
[10:10]
Patrick Hines
I seriously am. I. I can't believe I didn't look at this.
[10:14]
Jillian Benzavale
I thought they were dressing like traffic lights.
[10:16]
Patrick Hines
It's where you dress. You wear different colors, indicating your relationship seeking status.
[10:21]
Jillian Benzavale
Oh, how gay. Handkerchief in the back pocket. In the 1970s in San Francisco, it's.
[10:26]
Patrick Hines
One of those kinds of things. So color green means that you're single and looking.
[10:29]
Jillian Benzavale
Oh, single. Ready to mingle.
[10:31]
Patrick Hines
Red means that you're in a relationship.
[10:33]
Jillian Benzavale
Okay.
[10:34]
Patrick Hines
And yellow is. I don't know.
[10:36]
Jillian Benzavale
Yellow is open to interpretation.
[10:38]
Patrick Hines
Yellow is, as Facebook used to say, it's complicated.
[10:41]
Jillian Benzavale
I'm very glad you looked this up, because I'm like, wait. The point is to joke. Because in the Facebook group, they would be like, you idiots.
[10:47]
Patrick Hines
I know.
[10:47]
Jillian Benzavale
Here's what this is.
[10:48]
Patrick Hines
The one thing I didn't research. I'll read court transcripts and police transcripts for 10 hours, but you're not researching.
[10:53]
Jillian Benzavale
A bus stoplight party.
[10:54]
Patrick Hines
I literally was like, oh, it's the colors. How cute.
[10:56]
Jillian Benzavale
Totally. Me too. But I was like, these kids seem way cooler than me.
[11:00]
Patrick Hines
Idiot.
[11:00]
Jillian Benzavale
How would they. This doesn't sound fun.
[11:02]
Patrick Hines
Well, I did it now.
[11:03]
Jillian Benzavale
Oh, my God.
[11:03]
Patrick Hines
Crisis aver. What a mess that would have been. So the party started great. Like, lots of people. It's a really good time.
[11:10]
Janice Hawkins
Yeah.
[11:10]
Skyisha Pender
It wasn't until people arrived later that the vibes started to diminish. Like, everybody knew of these people or knew these people personally, so they know that normally trouble follows wherever they go. There's a lot less people dancing and having a good time, and everybody's just, like, looking over their shoulders.
[11:30]
Jillian Benzavale
And then there was, like, this crew of people who showed up that, like, everybody kind of knows where these people go. Trouble follows. Now they're there, and the party's not fun anymore.
[11:37]
Patrick Hines
And the vibe is totally ruined.
[11:38]
Janice Hawkins
Yeah.
[11:39]
Patrick Hines
And suddenly there's, like, a lot of tension and a lot of conflict. There's a group of girls that start fighting, and then these. The Bad Vibes crew start fighting with people. It's just bad news across the board.
[11:49]
Janice Hawkins
Yes.
[11:49]
Patrick Hines
And then the party shuts down, but that ended up causing more chaos.
[11:53]
Jillian Benzavale
Yeah, well, what happens is whoever's running the party kicks everybody out. Now there's 150 kids out on the.
[11:58]
Patrick Hines
Street and it's just like a mob of people walking around.
[12:00]
Jillian Benzavale
I one time I lived in the Westf for a year when I was very young and when I was like in my early 20s and I had this amazing apartment where it was a three story building and the apartment was the top floor. Then there was like a warehouse underneath us and that we could get into. And one year, my friend Jordan and I threw a Halloween party in there and invited everybody in the West Village.
[12:18]
Patrick Hines
That is already mobbed on Halloween.
[12:19]
Jillian Benzavale
Literally. Literally.
[12:20]
Patrick Hines
You can't walk in the West Village at all.
[12:22]
Jillian Benzavale
I know. And this was 2001 before the straight people took it over and made it super boring. But it was awesome. And we had like 200 people at this. We hired a DJ, we put in lighting. It was w. And the cops came and we're like, oh, my God, we're all going to jail. And they're like, nope, just stay inside. They're like, we are going to. We were never here. You just keep your friends inside until midnight and it's all good. Nobody's going to get in trouble.
[12:44]
Patrick Hines
Wow.
[12:44]
Jillian Benzavale
Because they wanted to avoid exactly what's happening here.
[12:47]
Patrick Hines
Did someone complain about the noise or something?
[12:49]
Jillian Benzavale
I don't know. Or probably. I mean, like, there was no other tenants of the building, so it wasn't like we were disturbing our neighbors. But who knows? Maybe they just saw the lights from outside. Because, like, we hired lights and fog. We went into Jersey and bought bales of hay and pumpkins. Like, we fudgeing.
[13:02]
Patrick Hines
Did it for Jesus.
[13:04]
Jillian Benzavale
It was such a good party time.
[13:06]
Patrick Hines
You were a party animal.
[13:06]
Jillian Benzavale
Yeah, totally. Oh, and I'll post pictures in the Facebook group because Jordan and I went as gay scarecrows.
[13:12]
Patrick Hines
Cute. My friend Alexa, is there any other kind? I mean, let's get literally.
[13:14]
Jillian Benzavale
No. My friend Alexa went as Ophelia, drowned in the swamp.
[13:18]
Patrick Hines
In the swamp. Ophelia.
[13:19]
Jillian Benzavale
Yeah, exactly, like Shakespearean Ophelia. And we put like, we put like shit in her hair. It was really good. Wow. But anyway, the cops, like, in. This is like a situation of, like, what happens when you do break up a party like that and make 150 people go out onto the street.
[13:32]
Patrick Hines
Well, also, tensions are high and people are pissed. And, like, no one likes getting kicked out of a party, so this is a recipe for disaster. So it's 10 o'clock. Keisha calls her parents.
[13:42]
Kenyatta Hawkins
The phone ring. It was Keisha, and she's like, mom.
[13:46]
Patrick Hines
Can you come pick me up? I'm like, where you at? She was like, I came to this party. I don't want to be here. Can you come pick me up?
[13:53]
Kenyatta Hawkins
So Janice left.
[13:56]
Skyisha Pender
The next thing I remember is like eight or nine gunshots going off.
[14:01]
Jillian Benzavale
Remember she told her parents she was going to her friend's house. She lied to her parents. She called her mother to say, I lied. I went to a party, come and get me. The mom's like, great, be right there.
[14:07]
Patrick Hines
Keisha does the right thing. Janice, the mom does the right thing. No questions asked, goes and picks her up. We've talked about this before. I've pled to you before. Please have a relationship with your kid or kids or whatever. The guardian, whatever.
[14:19]
Janice Hawkins
Yeah.
[14:20]
Patrick Hines
That this is how it is. The lie will get to later.
[14:23]
Janice Hawkins
Yeah.
[14:23]
Patrick Hines
The most important thing is that they feel safe enough to say, I know I lied. But if I say, I need help, I need you to pick me up, there's not going to be bullshit coming at me on the other the phone. We're just going to get picked up and get safe.
[14:34]
Jillian Benzavale
Yep.
[14:35]
Patrick Hines
So everyone here did the right thing. Janice and keisha.
[14:37]
Jillian Benzavale
Right. So 15 minutes later, 10:15, Kenyatta, the younger brother, hears, quote, eight or nine gunshots.
[14:43]
Patrick Hines
And everyone starts screaming.
[14:45]
Jillian Benzavale
And remember, there's 150 people on the street.
[14:47]
Patrick Hines
Yeah. So even more chaos. It's been a horrible 20 minutes.
[14:50]
Janice Hawkins
Yes.
[14:51]
Patrick Hines
Really a very tense. Like no one really knows what's going on. And everyone has been fighting before that. Now these gunshots start going off. So Kenyatta walks towards the screams.
[15:00]
Jillian Benzavale
He says, something told me to walk towards the scream.
[15:03]
Patrick Hines
I can't believe it.
[15:04]
Jillian Benzavale
He's 13 years old and he recognizes one of the screams as his cousin. So he thinks his cousin has been shot. But when he gets over there, he sees that it's not that the cousin has been shot, it's that his cousin was with his sister, Keisha and she's been shot.
[15:17]
Patrick Hines
Cause that was who his cousin was screaming about. Yes, Keisha, his sister. Now, Nikesha is alive. She's gasping for air. And Kenyatta, who's 13 years old, she.
[15:27]
Skyisha Pender
Was still breathing, but it was like she was gasping for. And I just knelt down right beside her. I held her hand and I held her head.
[15:38]
Patrick Hines
I held her head. I held her hand. Can you imagine being a 13 year old who's stepping into that role to.
[15:44]
Jillian Benzavale
Be there with your sister as she dies?
[15:45]
Patrick Hines
Also, who's called, who feels I'm going to walk toward the screams in this chaotic Situation. And is. Is. Is there with his sister in that moment.
[15:53]
Jillian Benzavale
It's incredible. I mean, it's the saddest thing I've ever. Well, it's. We're just getting started with this sadness. Yeah. This is.
[15:58]
Patrick Hines
Yeah. So, Jan, because Janice, the mom, arrives, and Nikisha has died of gunshot wounds.
[16:04]
Jillian Benzavale
She sees a body under a sheet on the street, and she instinctively knows it's her daughter.
[16:08]
Patrick Hines
And she.
[16:08]
Jillian Benzavale
How wild is that?
[16:10]
Patrick Hines
I know. This family is so close.
[16:11]
Jillian Benzavale
Very connected.
[16:12]
Patrick Hines
Very connected. And, you know, she has to pull this white sheet off of her daughter, and then she has to make the worst phone call in the world, which is calling Calvin.
[16:21]
Jillian Benzavale
Yeah.
[16:21]
Patrick Hines
At home and saying what happened. And she, you know, like, the. Even talking about it now. It's so hard because it's the guilt.
[16:28]
Jillian Benzavale
Right. And he says, I knew I shouldn't have let her go. This is what I was always trying to avoid. And this is what happens.
[16:34]
Patrick Hines
What are you going to do, Keep her home all weekend? Pick every battle, like, fight. Have every single fight.
[16:40]
Jillian Benzavale
Because she didn't do anything wrong. She was just a young kid who went to a party. You know what I mean?
[16:44]
Patrick Hines
Of course.
[16:44]
Jillian Benzavale
Like, it's. It's.
[16:45]
Patrick Hines
Everyone else at that party told the same lie. I know they all did it.
[16:49]
Jillian Benzavale
I'm like, I know there's no question that I'm going to be in this situation. There's no question kids are going to do it. I mean, you've said it about your. Like you were going to bars when you were, like, a junior in high school.
[16:58]
Patrick Hines
Yeah.
[16:59]
Jillian Benzavale
You know what I mean? Like. Like, I know that. Like, this is not about Keisha being a bad kid. This is about Keisha being a normal kid.
[17:06]
Patrick Hines
Of course.
[17:06]
Jillian Benzavale
You know, and Calvin being a good dad who didn't want to have the fight tonight, you know?
[17:10]
Patrick Hines
Of course. And when things got bad, if I had to call my parents, I could call my parents.
[17:14]
Jillian Benzavale
Yeah, of course.
[17:14]
Patrick Hines
And we'll talk about, you know, like, the reason I was able to go to those bars a lot of the time is cause my parents trusted me. I was with who I said I was gonna be with. But were we doing things, you know, did we, you know, saunter over to the Stuytown Keg? Sure.
[17:28]
Jillian Benzavale
The Stuytown Keg.
[17:30]
Patrick Hines
That's neither here nor there.
[17:31]
Jillian Benzavale
Okay. And frankly, none of your business.
[17:33]
Patrick Hines
None of. But, like, did I sleep at Jane's apartment and sleep over? And did my parents know? Jane's parents? Yes. Like, we. I was with the people I said I was going to. But sometimes we Made our way to the sidetown.
[17:42]
Jillian Benzavale
I never did anything bad in high school. I never did. I. I was like, I was so. I loved my life in high school. I was like a nerd in the drama club and I had a ton of girlfriends and we would, like, sometimes we'd sneak out at night and go to the beach, like after.
[17:55]
Patrick Hines
I've never snuck out.
[17:56]
Jillian Benzavale
I mean, it was like, you know, but I never drank. I mean, and when I was a. That's not true. When I was a senior, I did like, I went to parties and had drinks or whatever, but I was just like, there was nowhere to go anyway. It was Cape Cod. It wasn't like it was New York City where we could get into a bar with a fake id. That wasn't an option. Yeah, but. But yeah, Keisha did nothing wrong. Calvin did nothing wrong. This was just a shitty thing, you.
[18:18]
Patrick Hines
Know, it's what happens. Travel down the road.
[18:23]
Jillian Benzavale
Back again, girl. Quince is back. Mother's Day is upon us. And if you are looking for that perfect gift for the mother in your life, Quince is where it's at.
[18:31]
Patrick Hines
Especially the one that's like, oh, you don't have to get me anything.
[18:34]
Jillian Benzavale
Those are the ones. You have to get something.
[18:35]
Patrick Hines
Yeah.
[18:36]
Jillian Benzavale
So I got my sister in law, Julie, the water repellent suede clog mule.
[18:40]
Patrick Hines
Whoa.
[18:40]
Jillian Benzavale
It's like a slipper. You slip it on and off. It's so easy. You can wear it out in the rain if you're going to get, like, if you're walking the dog or if you're going to get the mail or whatever. It's water repellent. It's super cute, super comfy. I know she's gonna love it.
[18:51]
Patrick Hines
That's amazing. You know my nylon crossbody bag, it's my favorite thing in the world.
[18:56]
Jillian Benzavale
But because we know Quince for things like their cashmere sweaters from 50 bucks or their 14 karat gold jewelry, Italian leather bags, fragrances. So much more. But check out the Mother's Day section. They make it really easy for you.
[19:06]
Patrick Hines
Yeah. Here's the best part, though. All Quint's Items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. Yes.
[19:11]
Jillian Benzavale
And they do this by partnering directly with top factories. They cut out the cost of the middleman and they pass that savings on to us.
[19:17]
Patrick Hines
And Quint only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes.
[19:24]
Jillian Benzavale
Truly, I love quints. I was on the website today and I was like, I just like drifted over to the men's Stuff because I love.
[19:28]
Patrick Hines
It's amazing.
[19:30]
Jillian Benzavale
It's so good.
[19:30]
Patrick Hines
That lounger set the joggers. It's so cute.
[19:33]
Jillian Benzavale
It's so cute. Good. So fam. Thoughtful. Timeless. Totally. Her shop Mother's Day at quint.
[19:37]
Patrick Hines
Go to quint.com TCO for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns.
[19:43]
Jillian Benzavale
Yeah, that's Q-U I N C E.com TCO to get free shipping and 365 day returns.
[19:49]
Patrick Hines
Quint.com TCO they do have stuff for.
[19:51]
Jillian Benzavale
People who like men's clothing too. I'm just saying.
[19:53]
Patrick Hines
Yeah, it's like, Mother's Day is great, but also, like, for everyone every time of year. It's great.
[19:58]
Jillian Benzavale
Always.
[19:59]
Patrick Hines
Yeah.
[20:01]
Jillian Benzavale
But now we learn a little bit about Keisha. She was a baker.
[20:04]
Patrick Hines
Yeah. And she was the party, basically.
[20:06]
Kenyatta Hawkins
Keisha was the main one. Like, if she was to go spend the night at somebody house, the house would be quiet with me, Janice, Lil Calum yacht. But when Keisha come home, it was stir crazy. Like, Keisha was fun. Like, she was silly.
[20:20]
Jillian Benzavale
Kelvana's saying when she would have nights that she'd go sleep over at other friends houses, they'd be like, don't go so boring now. You're so fun. You're the fun one.
[20:27]
Patrick Hines
And she loved to bake, and she loved to bake for others. So, like, that's what she loved to do during the holidays. She was always, like, baking goods to give to people.
[20:34]
Jillian Benzavale
And that's what Janice does now to, like, think about Keisha. She, like, bakes cakes and it, like.
[20:38]
Patrick Hines
Brings her peace because, again, they're so connected, this family.
[20:41]
Jillian Benzavale
Yeah. And Kenyatta, the younger brother, he's like, we were closer than close. We were inseparable. She was an amazing friend, he says a loving spirit, very empathetic.
[20:48]
Patrick Hines
Like, he cool older sister was nice to him.
[20:51]
Jillian Benzavale
Yeah. I was gonna say, like, that can so go. I'm very close with my older sister now, but not when we were growing up. You know what I mean?
[20:56]
Patrick Hines
When you were 13 years old.
[20:57]
Jillian Benzavale
No, not even. Even, like. No.
[21:01]
Patrick Hines
Yeah.
[21:01]
Jillian Benzavale
You know, and, like, it's amazing that they. I love it when you see stories where, like, siblings like that are really tight. It's amazing.
[21:06]
Patrick Hines
I know. I agree.
[21:07]
Jillian Benzavale
And Janice, now, I know we don't like this. I know we don't subscribe. Janice says, she was my best friend. We know how that can be problematic.
[21:13]
Patrick Hines
That's. Janice doesn't mean it like that.
[21:15]
Jillian Benzavale
No, no. You can tell that Janice has got Rose.
[21:17]
Patrick Hines
I got a good Read on, Janice. She knows what's going on. She just meant, like, they bonded, you know, and she's a tragedy. Happens. So it's not, it's not. I'm not a real mom. I'm a cool mom. It's not that.
[21:27]
Jillian Benzavale
Uh huh.
[21:27]
Patrick Hines
Janice knows what's up.
[21:28]
Jillian Benzavale
Yeah. Like, if something God forbid happened to Daisy, I'd be like, she was my favorite person. You know what I mean?
[21:32]
Patrick Hines
Of course.
[21:33]
Jillian Benzavale
Yeah.
[21:33]
Patrick Hines
And that's allowed. Hello, monster. It's just like, Jillian with a J. Ashley is here.
[21:40]
Janice Hawkins
Yeah.
[21:40]
Patrick Hines
She's the assistant chief of police in Michigan City.
[21:43]
Jillian Benzavale
We love her and then we're going to hate her for like a second, but then we're going to get her back.
[21:46]
Patrick Hines
Okay, great. Yeah, it's. I'm going to say my own name, but she's Jillian with a J. Julian.
[21:50]
Jillian Benzavale
With a J. I know.
[21:51]
Patrick Hines
So she says, look, the cops get as much evidence as they can from the crime scene. The fingerprints, shell casings, hair, like whatever they can get.
[21:57]
Janice Hawkins
Yeah.
[21:58]
Patrick Hines
So this story is going to be told a lot from Jillian with a J and John, the former prosecutor Y. Yeah.
[22:03]
Jillian Benzavale
And they're. Yeah, they're both pretty great. They have one moment where we kind of hate them, but then everything works out in the end.
[22:09]
Patrick Hines
Yeah. I'll know when I get. When we get there. Of course.
[22:11]
Jillian Benzavale
To when we hate them.
[22:12]
Patrick Hines
Yeah.
[22:12]
Jillian Benzavale
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[22:13]
Patrick Hines
For sure.
[22:14]
Jillian Benzavale
But we learned, you know, Jillian with a J is telling us.
[22:17]
Patrick Hines
I know exactly what it is.
[22:17]
Jillian Benzavale
Yeah. Jillian with a J is telling us that the conflict of the party had been between two groups of kids from rivaling parts of towns. And they were like, you know, they were just like, dealing with, like, the shit that, you know, young kids deal with. They were basically young and stupid is what they say.
[22:31]
Patrick Hines
And there were dozens of people. There were like 150 people, lots of witnesses, but hardly any will speak to police because a lot of these kids are black. So they're not going to trust the cops. And a lot of these kids were like, involved, like when the bad kids came up, like Kenyatta said, like, no one's going to talk because they're either scared or they don't want to incriminate themselves. So, like, there are a million and one reasons why none of the witnesses are speaking to police.
[22:51]
Jillian Benzavale
And it's awful because basically 150 people saw what happened. But nobody will say.
[22:55]
Patrick Hines
No one's saying anything.
[22:56]
Jillian Benzavale
So Detective Ashley is saying one thing kept coming up.
[22:59]
Patrick Hines
Cameron Kent, he was one of the partygoers. There was witnesses that came forward and.
[23:05]
Skyisha Pender
Said that they actually did witness him shoot.
[23:08]
Patrick Hines
When the party let out, he actually.
[23:10]
Jillian Benzavale
Walked down a hill where multiple other partygoers were.
[23:13]
Patrick Hines
He pulled out a gun, and he shot into the air.
[23:16]
Jillian Benzavale
Many people came forward and said that they saw him shoot, like, be one of the shooters in the crowd. And so Detective Ashley is just saying we talked to him extensively.
[23:25]
Patrick Hines
Yeah.
[23:25]
Jillian Benzavale
And ultimately he gives up his gun, and ultimately he's charged with Keisha's death.
[23:31]
Patrick Hines
Because this guy, James Sanders, was shot and injured, and he told police the camera was walking down the hill firing shots in the air. So they're like, we have to talk to Cameron. Obviously, they talked to Cameron, and Cameron's like, I'll show you where the gun is. And he's. He's 100% charged with Nikita's death. Like, right away, it just.
[23:46]
Jillian Benzavale
Why do these kids have guns? I mean, I know that's a dumb rhetorical fucking question, but, like, imagine being in a crowd of, like, people that you go to high school with, and all of a sudden people are shooting.
[23:55]
Patrick Hines
Yeah.
[23:55]
Jillian Benzavale
That is terrifying.
[23:56]
Patrick Hines
Yeah. And what's even crazier is that Cameron and Keisha were friends. Keisha's parents knew him, and, like, not even just friends.
[24:02]
Jillian Benzavale
Like. Like, he would be at their house all the time.
[24:05]
Patrick Hines
He came over to their house all the. But he also came over and offered his condolences, and now he's been arrested.
[24:10]
Jillian Benzavale
Yeah.
[24:10]
Patrick Hines
So something is really off about this. It doesn't make any sense. So now it's September 25, 2011, and it turns out Cameron was lying about the gun.
[24:19]
Jillian Benzavale
Right. Like, the ballistics report comes back, and the gun doesn't match the bullet that was found in Keisha's body. So Cameron couldn't have done it. Now I'm at least relieved that the cops are like, okay, well, I guess he didn't do it. We're going to drop the charges. As opposed to, like, burying that under the carpet and being like, we're going to prosecute this kid anyway.
[24:34]
Patrick Hines
Yeah, the charges are dropped. Cameron didn't do it. But I'm confused. One, why did he direct them to his gun in the first place? I guess guilt or. What am I missing? And two, why would they charge him before the ballistics came back?
[24:44]
Jillian Benzavale
I know. And he's not here to tell us what the story here is, because, like, was he saying, it wasn't me, it wasn't me? And they're like, no, people saw you do it, so we're charging you.
[24:52]
Patrick Hines
But then he. He brought them to his gun where he did it or whatever.
[24:56]
Jillian Benzavale
Maybe he gave them the gun, thinking that that would. I mean, and luckily he did because it proved that it wasn't. He wasn't. Like, if he hadn't given them the gun, he probably would have gone down for this.
[25:02]
Patrick Hines
It seems really ridiculous and out of line to charge someone before the ballistics agree more. But that's just me, Chillian. Just me. So if Cameron did kill Keisha, who did?
[25:13]
Jillian Benzavale
Right.
[25:14]
Patrick Hines
And now we're back to, like, no one wants to talk, and the parents are telling their kids, stay out of it. No one wants retaliation from these gangs or whatever. They don't trust the cops.
[25:22]
Jillian Benzavale
Yeah. And this is where the prosecutor says, like, after going back to the public and getting no help from the 150 people who saw what happened, he was like, our decision was we were going to leave the case open, but we couldn't actively investigate it because, like, there's nothing to investigate at this point.
[25:38]
Patrick Hines
So there no leads, there's no information. The case goes cold.
[25:41]
Janice Hawkins
Yeah.
[25:42]
Patrick Hines
And so it's now. It's 2016, five years later. Calvin is having a really hard time. He's his dad.
[25:49]
Jillian Benzavale
And remember, like, we see him now, and he's kind of full of energy, and he's awesome. And he was talking about, like, how amazing their family was, but he's saying.
[25:56]
Patrick Hines
Calvin was very depressed, so he didn't really talk. He didn't really come out of his room.
[26:01]
Kenyatta Hawkins
I just wanted to just lay there and waddle in my son.
[26:05]
Jillian Benzavale
I just wanted to wallow in my sorrow. And I was thinking about that. I think that there's a way that that actually makes you feel close to the dead person.
[26:13]
Patrick Hines
I think so, too. I think there's also a lot of guilt of what does that say about me if I have a nice day? What does that say about me if I move on? Is there. Moving on? Is that forgetting this person? I think there's a lot of stuff that you internalize that I don't agree with. Like, I think you have to.
[26:29]
Jillian Benzavale
Yeah.
[26:30]
Patrick Hines
Go outside. Or I think you have to try to find joy somehow.
[26:34]
Jillian Benzavale
Because the thing about it is, like, if the rest of the family is trying. And you're the guy in the bedroom with the blinds down and the door closed and, like, that. That. That compounds how hard it is for the rest of the family.
[26:45]
Patrick Hines
Yeah. And. And Calvin says something here that really struck me. He said I was angry and I couldn't grieve.
[26:52]
Jillian Benzavale
Yes.
[26:52]
Patrick Hines
And I was like, that's a perfect way to say it, because he wanted to be in his anger, which I totally understand. But the family's going through the grieving process.
[26:59]
Janice Hawkins
Yes.
[26:59]
Patrick Hines
Which eventually takes you out of that dark room.
[27:02]
Jillian Benzavale
Right.
[27:02]
Patrick Hines
And he wanted to be with his anger. And I hear that.
[27:05]
Jillian Benzavale
I get it. I get it. But, you know, Janice is saying he felt like he. And he failed all of us. He's like this. She's saying this was why he was overprotective. This was the thing he was trying to protect her from. And in that one moment where he's like, I shouldn't let her go, but I did. She walked right into it. And also, like, Kenyatta, the younger brother, is like.
[27:23]
Skyisha Pender
But he still had other kids. I felt a ton of resentment, actually. But seeing my mom being this fortress, this rock, a woman of strength, showed me that I need to make sure that I am being a man of strength and being a support system for my family.
[27:44]
Jillian Benzavale
When I saw that my mom was a fortress for the family, I realized I could be a fortress for my family, too. And now, for lack of. I hate this expression, but for lack of a better way of saying it, he decides he's gotta, like, be the man of the family because his dad is just absent. His dad is absent, but he's right there.
[27:59]
Patrick Hines
He's right there. You know, maybe you can't get to.
[28:00]
Jillian Benzavale
Him, which is worse.
[28:01]
Patrick Hines
Yeah. So. So, you know, Janice was leading the support system. She was the strength. And then now we meet Eileen Silk Stebbins, who's Nikisha's childhood friend. She's awesome.
[28:12]
Janice Hawkins
Yeah.
[28:12]
Patrick Hines
She's in college. She's on Facebook. She comes across what she calls a slam page.
[28:17]
Jillian Benzavale
Have you ever heard of this?
[28:19]
Patrick Hines
I know. Like, a shit posting page. It's just like, people who want to talk shit, like, fucking losers.
[28:24]
Jillian Benzavale
But wait, and. Because Facebook is not anonymous. So, like, she's saying it's like, this is where you can go and, like, talk shit about people anonymously. But I'm like, like, do you make a fake Facebook profile?
[28:32]
Patrick Hines
I guess that you make, like, a burn account, I guess.
[28:34]
Jillian Benzavale
And you're just, like, there to talk shit about people.
[28:36]
Patrick Hines
It's just like, a cesspool of negativity and bullshit.
[28:39]
Jillian Benzavale
The Internet can really be used for the forces of evil. I know it's, you know, ridiculous, but.
[28:44]
Patrick Hines
She calls it a slam page. And so just a bunch of fudgeing losers who want to talk shit anonymously. Like, cool story, except I feel like.
[28:51]
Jillian Benzavale
In this instance, it's kind of like people who have information and don't have a better way of getting it. To the family.
[28:56]
Patrick Hines
Well, now it's become that. But the origin of it is bullshit.
[28:59]
Janice Hawkins
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[28:59]
Patrick Hines
But they're talking about.
[29:00]
Jillian Benzavale
Never seen anything like that. Maybe I'm on, like, loser Facebook. I've never been. I've never seen a thing. Thing where people just go and be mean to people on Facebook.
[29:07]
Patrick Hines
I think we've agreed that those people are the losers.
[29:10]
Jillian Benzavale
Right?
[29:11]
Patrick Hines
Like, what the fuck?
[29:12]
Jillian Benzavale
And, like, do you know that there are chat boards or whatever on, like, Broadway? World.com is a place where you can just go and anonymously talk shit about Broadway actors and Broadway shows. Yeah.
[29:21]
Patrick Hines
Welcome to the Internet. I mean, there are like a million corners of the Internet there that are about anonymously shit talking people. It's like.
[29:27]
Jillian Benzavale
It's. It's.
[29:29]
Patrick Hines
I love the time. I wonder.
[29:30]
Jillian Benzavale
The losers.
[29:31]
Patrick Hines
The losers.
[29:31]
Jillian Benzavale
Yeah.
[29:32]
Patrick Hines
So. But here's what's going on, though. In this one, people are starting to talk about Keisha, saying they know who killed her.
[29:37]
Janice Hawkins
Yes.
[29:38]
Patrick Hines
That's when they started dropping, like, names. And these clothes were worn. I know this gun was there. Kind of given, like, hints of who killed Keisha. Details are starting to come out because it's been like, five and a half years.
[29:50]
Janice Hawkins
Yeah.
[29:51]
Patrick Hines
And so people are saying way too much, though. And the comments are getting deleted. But screenshots live forever.
[29:56]
Janice Hawkins
Yes.
[29:57]
Patrick Hines
And so Keisha's friends are screenshotting everything and sending it all to her father.
[30:02]
Jillian Benzavale
Yeah. And the dad is like, I didn't. I barely knew what Facebook was. I like, the dad, remember the dad? Dad is despondent. He's up in the room, can't do anything. But now, all of a sudden, he's seeing there's, like, information about his daughter's murder.
[30:13]
Patrick Hines
And so Calvin takes the screenshots and brings them to the police, and the police do not care.
[30:19]
Jillian Benzavale
This is Detective Gillian Ashley with a J. This is where we lose her for one minute because she's like. She literally is like, sorry. Like, that's third party information. It's hearsay. We can't use it. And I'm like, could you look at it, though?
[30:29]
Patrick Hines
She says, we need a real source from a real witness. And I say, okay, sure.
[30:32]
Jillian Benzavale
Right.
[30:33]
Patrick Hines
But could you ask a question? Could you maybe look into it?
[30:35]
Jillian Benzavale
Maybe you could look at any of the information on this post and see if it corroborates anything you've heard. Maybe it'll send. This is the biggest example of we just don't give a shit I've seen in a while.
[30:45]
Patrick Hines
It's a little bit like, could you do a little Bit of digging. Could you just track something down and if it turns out to be nothing, that's fine. But it's been a cold case for five and a half years and this father, a lot of people are saying the same shit, right?
[30:56]
Jillian Benzavale
And like, remember 150 people were there and know what happened. And these are the people that are talking on this anonymous group. Like, I feel like in another circumstance, people would be jumping at this opportunity to see this information.
[31:06]
Patrick Hines
Right. Travel down the road.
[31:10]
Jillian Benzavale
Back again, girl. Cornbread Hemp CBD gummies is back. I'm obsessed. I've started taking this weightlifting class at the gym, which gives me the aches and pains and I don't want to like be popping those, like, Advil or whatever. I started taking Cornbread Hemps CBD gummies after my workout.
[31:23]
Patrick Hines
Yeah. And what's great is that it's just sort of a natural way.
[31:26]
Jillian Benzavale
Yes.
[31:26]
Patrick Hines
To relieve these aches and pains or just discomfort or being, you know, just a little too stressed out. So the CBD gummies from Cord Bread Hemp are formulated to work with your body, not against it. We got too much of that. No.
[31:36]
Jillian Benzavale
And honestly, like, I was never a CBD gummies person, but then Cornbread hem came into my life and I really love it. And it like, it's just like a mellow, mild thing where I just feel like I'm taking care of myself.
[31:45]
Patrick Hines
So easy. Those gummies popping right in.
[31:47]
Jillian Benzavale
I know it's a little too easy. It can be too easy. So fam. Right now, TCO listeners can save 30% on their first order.
[31:55]
Patrick Hines
Just head to cornbread hemp.com TCO and use code TCO at checkout.
[31:59]
Jillian Benzavale
That's cornbreadhemp.com TCO and use code TC out.
[32:02]
Patrick Hines
There you go.
[32:03]
Jillian Benzavale
Do it.
[32:04]
Patrick Hines
Have a nice night, everyone.
[32:05]
Jillian Benzavale
Just relax a little bit.
[32:06]
Patrick Hines
Lighten up.
[32:09]
Jillian Benzavale
Girl. This episode is brought to you by IQ Bar, our exclusive snack sponsor.
[32:14]
Patrick Hines
IQ Bar is the better for you. Plant protein based snacks made with brain boosting nutrients to refuel, nourish and satisfy hunger without the sugar crash.
[32:23]
Jillian Benzavale
Can I tell you that IQ Bar has been my go to snack for like when I need need an actual meal between meals for like years and years now. There's like simple ingredients, totally delicious and totally filling.
[32:33]
Patrick Hines
They're plant protein bars, by the way.
[32:35]
Janice Hawkins
Yes.
[32:35]
Patrick Hines
They're packed with high quality ingredients. They keep you physically and mentally fit. They're so delicious. They have these like toasted coconut chip or banana nut. The chocolate sea salt is to die.
[32:46]
Jillian Benzavale
Chocolate sea salt. I have on order they're also free from gluten, dairy, soy GMOs and artificial sweeteners for a natural any anytime snack.
[32:54]
Patrick Hines
Yeah, they sent me the the sampler pack. Mike and I were, like, trying to ration who gets what because they all taste so good.
[33:01]
Jillian Benzavale
So good. And with over 20, 000 five star reviews and counting, more people than ever are starting their days on the right foot with IQ Bar's brain and body boosting bars, hydration mixes, and mushroom coffees.
[33:12]
Patrick Hines
Yeah. So right now, IQ Bar is offering our special podcast listeners 20 off all IQ bar products plus. Plus get free shipping.
[33:20]
Jillian Benzavale
To get your 20% off, text TCO to 64,000.
[33:23]
Patrick Hines
Text TCO to 64,000.
[33:26]
Jillian Benzavale
That's TCO to 64,000.
[33:28]
Patrick Hines
Message and data rates may apply. See terms for details.
[33:32]
Jillian Benzavale
Always with the rules, right?
[33:33]
Patrick Hines
But while you're snacking on the peanut butter chip. IQ Bar, obviously. So Calvin agrees with us, obviously, because he goes back, he's like. He brings everything to the cops. They say, like, I'm sorry, we can't do anything. And he goes home and, like, stews on it. And all night long, he's like, no, we're not doing this.
[33:54]
Jillian Benzavale
No.
[33:54]
Patrick Hines
So the next day, he goes back and he's like, are you seriously not gonna do anything? Cause if you don't, I will. And, like, I'm just warning you.
[34:00]
Jillian Benzavale
He's like, I'm just here to confirm that you said you're not gonna do anything about this. I just wanna make sure I heard you correctly.
[34:05]
Patrick Hines
And they're like, oh, you heard us. We're not gonna do anything.
[34:07]
Jillian Benzavale
Definitely not.
[34:08]
Patrick Hines
School.
[34:08]
Jillian Benzavale
Bet.
[34:08]
Patrick Hines
So he goes to his car.
[34:10]
Janice Hawkins
Yeah.
[34:10]
Patrick Hines
And he goes on f Facebook, and he says, I see a button that says live.
[34:15]
Jillian Benzavale
I love this so much.
[34:16]
Patrick Hines
And he clicks on it and he goes. And it said, 3, 2, 1. And in Hollywood, that means action. And I'm like, yes, let's go.
[34:23]
Janice Hawkins
Yes.
[34:24]
Patrick Hines
Calvin goes live outside the police department. He's like, these people won't help me, man. Tom, can we hear a lot of what he says? Because he says what everyone is thinking.
[34:34]
Kenyatta Hawkins
They ran me out of the police station last night, told me they can't do nothing for me, man. They killed my daughter four days before birthday, man. I had to bury her for 18th birthday, and these police would not help me. I got all the screenshots and they still don't want to do nothing about it.
[34:52]
Jillian Benzavale
I had to bury my daughter for her 18th birthday and nobody will help me. That's the other thing. She was murdered four days Shy of her birthday. He buried her on her birthday.
[35:02]
Patrick Hines
I know, I know.
[35:02]
Jillian Benzavale
And now he's got information for the first time in five years and nobody will help.
[35:06]
Patrick Hines
And he. It's so sad and it breaks your heart, but it's kind of amazing to watch.
[35:10]
Janice Hawkins
Yes.
[35:11]
Patrick Hines
Just like this fire come out of him. And at one point he's arguing with a police officer in the street, in the rain. That rain is a paid actor.
[35:17]
Jillian Benzavale
I know. Because what happens is he's out there because we're seeing the number of shares on the Facebook post going from 1 to 5 to 13 to 40 to 90. So the cops are very aware this is happening. So after kicking him out and being like, we're not going to help you, they send somebody out to be like, we would. You know what we would love to do?
[35:34]
Patrick Hines
We'd love to help you talk about this quietly inside.
[35:36]
Jillian Benzavale
We would. And he's like, fuck that. Fuck you. I don't want your fucking. I'm gonna do this on my own now.
[35:40]
Patrick Hines
Kenyatta hears about it at school.
[35:42]
Janice Hawkins
Yes.
[35:42]
Patrick Hines
It's going viral, like, where people are like, hey, your dad is doing and. And Kenyatta is loving it. Cause he's like, that's not the person who was locked in his room every day. Like, this is who we needed.
[35:51]
Jillian Benzavale
He's like, my dad's back. Like, can you imagine? Like your awesome dad Calvon, who was awesome all your life, then you lost your sister and basically your dad in the same day. Yes. The dad's right there, but he's gone for five years and all of a sudden he's got all of his passion back.
[36:04]
Patrick Hines
It's amazing. It's energizing everyone. Like Kenyatta, everyone. The community. 85.
[36:10]
Janice Hawkins
Yes.
[36:11]
Patrick Hines
So many comments, shares, people all over the world, people are coming down in real time. I know this video started with Calvin alone outside the department and now people are showing up with signs, honking their horn in real time.
[36:25]
Jillian Benzavale
And it's like days and days and he's just doing it every single day.
[36:29]
Patrick Hines
And now Jesse Schultz is one of those 85,000 people who saw this. She's a reporter. She was a brand new reporter at the time. And she sees this Facebook Live and she's like, I remember seeing Calvin's Facebook Live. There was so much raw emotion there and grief and sorrow and anger. And I wanted to talk to him. My news director at the time said, if you really want to do this, go an hour away and just get back in time to get it on air. She's so moved by it that she drives an hour away to do to meet Calvin outside.
[37:02]
Jillian Benzavale
And this is her first job out of college, by the way. She had to pitch this to her news director who's like, girl, go do it. Just be back in time to get it on the air.
[37:08]
Patrick Hines
And she does. So she, like, hears about the story, drives in, hour, reports everything, films, whatever she has to do, and has a story in time for air that night. This is what I'm fucking talking about.
[37:19]
Jillian Benzavale
It's so good.
[37:19]
Patrick Hines
This is how you get stuff done.
[37:21]
Jillian Benzavale
And what's amazing about Calvin is that, like, you can see he doesn't even know. Like, in the beginning, he did not know the power of what he was doing.
[37:26]
Patrick Hines
No.
[37:26]
Jillian Benzavale
He didn't know the power of what an outlet hitting go live would do. You know, it's amazing. It's unbelievable.
[37:32]
Patrick Hines
So he's going live constantly. These stations are picking up the story. It's everywhere. Because now you have all these people invested, and they want updates.
[37:38]
Jillian Benzavale
Yes.
[37:38]
Patrick Hines
And he's giving the people what they want, which unfortunately is nothing right now.
[37:41]
Jillian Benzavale
Right.
[37:42]
Patrick Hines
And the more he says that, the more guests galvanized people are, and the more eyes and ears are on this thing.
[37:46]
Jillian Benzavale
And so this leads the chief at the time to assign new detectives to the case. Like, finally, like, they said no a week ago. And now, just based on him, like, taking his own initiative, they've got new. And Gillian Ashley is one of the detectives assigned to the case.
[38:00]
Patrick Hines
So Gillian Ashley is now a captain, but at this time, she was a detective.
[38:03]
Janice Hawkins
Yeah.
[38:03]
Patrick Hines
So it's Gillian Ashley and Anna Painter.
[38:06]
Janice Hawkins
Yes.
[38:06]
Patrick Hines
And so they make a plea to the community. They're like, look, do this for Keisha. Do this for her father. This is your community.
[38:12]
Jillian Benzavale
Do what we wouldn't do a week ago. Thank you so much.
[38:15]
Patrick Hines
They were like, you guys were young when it happened, but you're adults now.
[38:18]
Janice Hawkins
Yes.
[38:19]
Patrick Hines
Stand up and be the adult in the room. Do the right thing. Help us solve this case.
[38:22]
Jillian Benzavale
And this is what they count on in these cold cases that, like, what you were afraid of five years ago, maybe you're not afraid of anymore. Maybe that person that. That you were afraid of, that did this, died or moved away or whatever.
[38:32]
Patrick Hines
You know, just like, you have a different view of the world.
[38:35]
Jillian Benzavale
Maybe you have kids now and this means something different to you.
[38:38]
Patrick Hines
Yeah, maybe.
[38:38]
Janice Hawkins
Yeah.
[38:39]
Patrick Hines
So detectives Jillian with a J and Anna get to work. They start the case over completely, which is usually what happens in a situation like this. Like, fresh eyes. We're going to start from scratch. They start with all they have 140.
[38:51]
Jillian Benzavale
Statements on, like, CD ROM. Yeah, we see all the CD. I was like, oh, my God.
[38:56]
Patrick Hines
Yeah, they listen to them again, like they've never heard them before. So let's go back to 2011, the initial investigation. Yes, Michael Cooper is a witness.
[39:05]
Calvin Hawkins
Michael Cooper came forward to say, I have information about her death, about who was responsible. It was a young man, man whose name is Charles Garon. He had a gun that night. I saw him shoot into the crowd. And he is the one that's responsible for Nikisha's death.
[39:24]
Patrick Hines
This guy, Charles Guerin, killed Nikisha. He had a gun. He shot into the crowd.
[39:29]
Janice Hawkins
Yes.
[39:30]
Patrick Hines
And killed her.
[39:31]
Jillian Benzavale
And he saw it happen.
[39:32]
Patrick Hines
Now, this statement was not corroborated at the time in 2011, but the cops weren't unfamiliar with Charles Guerin. We learned that there were, quote, previous.
[39:41]
Jillian Benzavale
Encounters with him starting at the age of 16.
[39:44]
Patrick Hines
Right. Then there's also Skyisha Pender. She's a witness.
[39:47]
Jillian Benzavale
Right.
[39:48]
Patrick Hines
And she says in 2011, all she said to the cops, because again, no one wanted to say anything. No one wanted to get involved. She said, I did hear shots fired, but that's all she's gonna say.
[39:56]
Jillian Benzavale
Right. So in 2016, Skyisha Pender is re interviewed. She says the same thing. She doesn't want to go much further, but ends up giving a very useful statement. So she says in 2011, she was in a relationship with this guy, Charles Guerin. The guy that we think is the killer.
[40:11]
Patrick Hines
Yeah.
[40:11]
Jillian Benzavale
She was at the party. He showed up. After the party broke up, 75 to 100 kids poured into the street. She heard the sound of what she thought were firecrackers at a distance down the hill, followed by three loud, close sounds of gunfire. And she looked directly towards the sound of the gunfire, saw her boyfriend, Charles Guerin, shooting into the crowd down the hill.
[40:30]
Patrick Hines
What is wrong with him? Who shoots into a crowd like that? What is happening?
[40:34]
Jillian Benzavale
To what end?
[40:35]
Patrick Hines
I don't understand.
[40:36]
Jillian Benzavale
Like, what is the reason for this?
[40:38]
Patrick Hines
God, just like. Just as much destruction as you could possibly cause.
[40:41]
Jillian Benzavale
I mean, there's no way that you can do that without knowing. Knowing that you're going to kill somebody right now.
[40:46]
Patrick Hines
This is great for the case.
[40:48]
Janice Hawkins
Yeah.
[40:48]
Patrick Hines
Because Skye just corroborated what Michael Cooper said.
[40:51]
Jillian Benzavale
Exactly.
[40:51]
Patrick Hines
So now they can focus on Charles Guerin and they get an arrest warrant.
[40:55]
Calvin Hawkins
Although we lacked the kind of evidence that we desire, that being some other physical evidence in the case. Get the gun. We didn't have that, but I knew we had great testimonial evidence. We had two people whose statements are being provided independent of each other.
[41:16]
Patrick Hines
Two people say they saw him independently.
[41:18]
Jillian Benzavale
Meaning they didn't know each other. There's no reason for them both to be pointed to the same guns. They're not cahoots. And that it would be really helpful if they had the gun. They don't have the gun, but they've got these two statements. They think, like, I think more than anything, they're feeling the pressure from, like, the Facebook Live audience. Like, we gotta do fucking something.
[41:33]
Patrick Hines
Exactly.
[41:33]
Jillian Benzavale
You know, and when in doubt, go on Facebook Live.
[41:35]
Patrick Hines
And speaking of Facebook Live, this arrest. Cause they arrest this Charles guy.
[41:38]
Janice Hawkins
Yeah.
[41:39]
Patrick Hines
Happened one month after Calvin's first fate. Facebook Live. That is fast.
[41:43]
Jillian Benzavale
And now it's been five years since any movement in the case and four weeks since the police said, we're not going to fucking help you.
[41:49]
Patrick Hines
Yeah.
[41:49]
Jillian Benzavale
He went on Facebook Live in the parking lot. One month later, they arrested.
[41:53]
Patrick Hines
And they have an arrest, like, and people are starting to come forward.
[41:56]
Jillian Benzavale
You know what I would love? I would love somebody to go through the comments from that burn page, or whatever it's called, that slam page, and see if any of that evidence pointed to this Charles Garon guy. And if it did, everybody should be fired.
[42:07]
Patrick Hines
Yeah.
[42:07]
Jillian Benzavale
You know what I mean?
[42:08]
Patrick Hines
I'm sure it did. I'm sure it did.
[42:09]
Jillian Benzavale
It was right there.
[42:11]
Patrick Hines
Yeah. I would say it's a very safe bet that that guy's name was mentioned in this.
[42:15]
Jillian Benzavale
You know what I mean? It's like, I can't blame how blatantly Detective Ashley herself is here to say, yeah, we weren't going to look at it. Sorry. It just. It was, you know, hearsay or what it's like. Or whatever, you know?
[42:25]
Patrick Hines
Yeah. So everyone knows Charles and his friends. And Calvin says they were always shooting around here all the time. They weren't the bad kids and people were scared of them. And that's a major reason why no one was saying anything. But, like, five and a half years is a long time. So. Yeah, grow up and speak up.
[42:40]
Jillian Benzavale
I just. I'm so conflicted about that. Of course you don't want to put anybody else in danger, but, like, if it's my kid, and I know that my neighbor's kid knows who killed her, but they're too. And. And I know that their parents are saying, stay out of it. Mind your own business.
[42:52]
Patrick Hines
It just causes more attention in the community.
[42:54]
Jillian Benzavale
And it's like somebody knows, you know what I mean? Like, there's a dead kid here.
[42:57]
Patrick Hines
I know. So. But Chief Gillian With a J says an arrest is not a conviction. So we have a long road ahead. Because again, this case is pretty weak. You're looking for reasonable doubt in front of a jury. Like it's kind of there.
[43:08]
Jillian Benzavale
Right. Because it's 2016 and Skyisha's just been re interviewed. But they got to go find this Michael Cooper guy who gave the original statement that. That skyisha just corroborated.
[43:16]
Patrick Hines
Well, guess what, everybody, they meet with Michael Cooper, he recants his statement.
[43:20]
Jillian Benzavale
Yes.
[43:21]
Calvin Hawkins
Michael recanted his previous statement, denied that that truly happened. He said that I made it up. I told the investigators what they wanted to hear. I told you what happened five and a half years ago. You didn't think what I had to say was strong enough. Don't bother me now. I've moved on.
[43:44]
Patrick Hines
So now this means we're back to square one.
[43:46]
Janice Hawkins
Yeah.
[43:46]
Patrick Hines
And this is a problem, Cuz now there's no case. There's one witness. It took her five and a half years to talk. Now nothing is corroborated. Cuz Michael Cooper said, I'm out. There's no physical evidence.
[43:55]
Jillian Benzavale
Right.
[43:55]
Patrick Hines
John the lawyer is like, this is not a case you take to trial.
[43:58]
Jillian Benzavale
Like, Right.
[43:59]
Patrick Hines
Yikes.
[43:59]
Jillian Benzavale
And they're saying, like they could maybe force some kind of plea agreement for something far less than murder or whatever. But the best part is that they make the decision. The prosecutor makes the decision to let him plead to criminal recklessness, which would have gotten him like a year in prison or whatever, because that's the only.
[44:14]
Patrick Hines
Case the DA can prove. And so they're like, it's kind of this or nothing. They're going to do something.
[44:18]
Jillian Benzavale
But they take it to the judge, who clearly has been following this story on Facebook Live, the judge says, hell no.
[44:24]
Patrick Hines
Because what happens is that everyone's devastated.
[44:27]
Janice Hawkins
Yeah.
[44:28]
Patrick Hines
And Calvin is on Facebook Live, like super emotional about, like, this guy's going to get a plea deal. And the family and the community come together and demand that the judge reject the deal. And they do.
[44:37]
Jillian Benzavale
And the judge does it. Now, the prosecutor could have dropped the case at that point because the judge says, I'm not taking this plea deal. So either you try to go all the way with this thing or you drop it. Those are your only two choices.
[44:47]
Patrick Hines
We're going all the way, girl.
[44:48]
Jillian Benzavale
Yeah.
[44:48]
Patrick Hines
We are going all the way, May.
[44:50]
Jillian Benzavale
Get this guy.
[44:51]
Patrick Hines
We're going to trial with one witness who didn't say anything for five and a half years and no physical evidence.
[44:55]
Janice Hawkins
Yeah.
[44:55]
Patrick Hines
This is tough.
[44:57]
Jillian Benzavale
Right?
[44:58]
Patrick Hines
I don't know shit about Shit. But this is hard.
[45:00]
Jillian Benzavale
Yeah, but I'm glad, like, I'm glad that, you know, I don't know.
[45:02]
Patrick Hines
They're going to try.
[45:03]
Jillian Benzavale
I'm glad they're going to try.
[45:04]
Patrick Hines
They're going to try.
[45:04]
Jillian Benzavale
This is it.
[45:05]
Patrick Hines
And really try. Not this like criminal reckless thing. Like really try it for real.
[45:08]
Janice Hawkins
Yes.
[45:11]
Patrick Hines
Travel down the road back again.
[45:13]
Jillian Benzavale
Hey fam, it's Patrick and Jillian. Listen, if you're enjoying tco, we've got something you need to check out.
[45:18]
Patrick Hines
It's the brand new crime house original series Clues, hosted by Morgan Abshur and Kaylin Moore.
[45:24]
Jillian Benzavale
And if their names sound familiar to you, that's because Morgan hosts the podcast two Hot Takes and Kaylin hosts the podcast Heart Starts Pounding. I love it. And they're coming together to host this new series, Clues.
[45:34]
Patrick Hines
Every Wednesday, Morgan and Kaylin take you deep into the world of the most notorious crimes ever. Where a single clue can crack a case wide open.
[45:41]
Jillian Benzavale
From shocking murders to high stakes trials, Clues unpacks the forensic evidence and obsessive sleuthing behind the investigations that still have people talking to this very day.
[45:50]
Patrick Hines
Kaylin is your true crime expert, breaking down the cold hard facts of these cases.
[45:53]
Jillian Benzavale
And Morgan is your Internet detective, going into full Reddit mode to uncover the theories and weird details you definitely haven't heard.
[46:00]
Patrick Hines
Follow Clues now wherever you get your podcasts.
[46:03]
Jillian Benzavale
New episodes drop every Wednesday.
[46:07]
Patrick Hines
So September 17th, they really need Michael Cooper to talk. The guy who recanted his statement.
[46:13]
Calvin Hawkins
So we subpoenaed him to produce himself for a for an interview. So Michael was ordered to show up in Indiana and he didn't.
[46:24]
Jillian Benzavale
He ignores the subpoena. I didn't know this was a thing you can do.
[46:28]
Patrick Hines
He ghosts it. He just doesn't show up.
[46:29]
Jillian Benzavale
I'm just the person who does what they are told, you know what I mean?
[46:32]
Patrick Hines
Yeah.
[46:32]
Jillian Benzavale
I'm the kid that grew up like when the kids were talking too loud in social studies, I'm like stop it. The teacher's gonna yell if I'm subpoenaed.
[46:38]
Patrick Hines
You didn't like ask for homework, did you?
[46:40]
Jillian Benzavale
I did once. You did? I did one time. I did one time ask if we could have a 500 word essay for, for the next day. I did once ask.
[46:50]
Patrick Hines
What?
[46:51]
Jillian Benzavale
I don't remember, but it was social studies. And I was like, I you like.
[46:54]
Patrick Hines
For the specific assignment. It wasn't like oh Teacher, it's 3:30 on a Friday. You forgot about homework.
[46:59]
Jillian Benzavale
It was 8th grade, Mr. Didn't give any homework. And I was like, could we maybe like, have, like, an essay. We could write. Write an essay on this for tomorrow. Looking around like, isn't that a great idea? Are you all excited to continue the conversation through our essays tomorrow?
[47:11]
Patrick Hines
How dare you?
[47:12]
Jillian Benzavale
I know. Why would you do that? I was just a little gay boy who didn't know any better. I just wanted to continue the conversation. I didn't remember what we were talking about.
[47:21]
Patrick Hines
You don't want to do anything like that now. But, like, you don't want to. But I'm saying, like, you don't seem like the person who wants to do, like, extra, like, homework, like, write an essay.
[47:31]
Jillian Benzavale
No, but I just remember the conversation. Like, I remember we were having an interesting conversation. I was like, what if we all go home and think about this? You.
[47:37]
Patrick Hines
I just want to keep talking about.
[47:38]
Jillian Benzavale
It, write an essay, come back in tomorrow. We can all, like, read our essays to each other. I think it was more like, I thought I was a good writer, and I just wanted people to tell me how good my essay was.
[47:45]
Patrick Hines
You want to be graded on it?
[47:46]
Jillian Benzavale
Totally.
[47:47]
Patrick Hines
You didn't just want to do it like, no.
[47:48]
Jillian Benzavale
Not even graded. I wanted to read it out loud, never be like, wow, that was really good. I know I'm the bad guy here.
[47:54]
Patrick Hines
I know a little bit. 500 word essay. I would have been like, I know.
[48:00]
Jillian Benzavale
I know, I know.
[48:01]
Patrick Hines
Oh, my God. Anyway, so the prosecution subpoenas him for the interview. He ghosts them. He doesn't show up.
[48:05]
Jillian Benzavale
Now, I just can't believe that. I can't believe you think you can just not show up for subpoena.
[48:09]
Patrick Hines
Well, as Chief Gillian with a J says, not really, no. So she uses this word here that she thinks, I don't know what the translation is. So she goes, what we did next was, quote, unconventional, but had to be done. The translation is they find some bullshit reason to arrest them and bring him back to Indiana.
[48:25]
Jillian Benzavale
In which this case, I say, good. Boom.
[48:27]
Patrick Hines
We're talking to Michael Cooper. But they said, I mean, that's what unconventional means. To chill in with a J. Let's be real about it, right?
[48:33]
Jillian Benzavale
She's the one who said, we're not going to help you. Sorry.
[48:35]
Patrick Hines
Yeah, you know what I mean. Found a lesser charge. It was a bullshit charge. So they sit down with them, and according to John, the prosecutor, they are super nice.
[48:43]
Calvin Hawkins
I think I know what you must be thinking, that you told what you knew. Nobody listened. Nobody believed you, because nobody did anything about it. But we're here and we believe you, and we'd like to have that conversation.
[49:02]
Patrick Hines
With you in that process, he decided, I'll do it.
[49:06]
Skyisha Pender
It's all.
[49:07]
Patrick Hines
They just want to reason with him. And it's all about justice.
[49:10]
Jillian Benzavale
I love. In your version, they've got him tied to a chair.
[49:12]
Patrick Hines
Well, because suddenly Michael Cooper does decide to cooperate, and I'm like, did they maybe perhaps, I don't know, threaten him with a bigger charge? Like, how unconventional did we get here?
[49:22]
Jillian Benzavale
Listen, if you ignore a subpoena, that's. I don't know what level of crime that is, but it's not good.
[49:28]
Patrick Hines
I understand. And I know that he's important to the case.
[49:31]
Janice Hawkins
Yeah.
[49:32]
Patrick Hines
But how unconventional do we get here?
[49:33]
Jillian Benzavale
So, like, how much lying did we do?
[49:36]
Patrick Hines
Because we know cops are allowed to lie. So what did we really offer him or threaten him with to get him to suddenly talk? Because two days ago he didn't want to.
[49:44]
Jillian Benzavale
But he is being a little piece of shit about it, don't you think?
[49:47]
Patrick Hines
Ye agree? I'm just talking about the system that I know want burned down to the ground.
[49:52]
Jillian Benzavale
Jillian's law. I'm telling you, we got to make the show.
[49:54]
Patrick Hines
But she. We have a Jillian with a J right here.
[49:56]
Jillian Benzavale
But she would not be sent for. If she accidentally got on that spaceship, it seems like she would not be sent for at this point.
[50:01]
Patrick Hines
I don't want. I can't make that decision without consulting the coven. I can't do it. I can't make things on. This is not a. Cheer up.
[50:08]
Jillian Benzavale
You're right.
[50:08]
Patrick Hines
All right, we got our two corroborating. We got our two corroborating witnesses. We're back in action.
[50:12]
Jillian Benzavale
It's a stupid word.
[50:13]
Patrick Hines
It's a horrible word.
[50:14]
Jillian Benzavale
I hate it.
[50:15]
Patrick Hines
It's one of my least favorite words.
[50:17]
Jillian Benzavale
It's a bad word.
[50:18]
Patrick Hines
I don't know if I can pick another.
[50:19]
Jillian Benzavale
Uh huh. Certificate. I don't like that one either.
[50:22]
Patrick Hines
Oh, okay.
[50:22]
Janice Hawkins
Yeah.
[50:22]
Jillian Benzavale
I had a really hard time with that one when I was a kid.
[50:25]
Patrick Hines
It's a tough one.
[50:25]
Jillian Benzavale
I couldn't say certificate.
[50:26]
Patrick Hines
Yeah, it's not as bad as corroborating.
[50:28]
Jillian Benzavale
Corroborating is pretty bad.
[50:30]
Patrick Hines
It sounds like you're saying it wrong.
[50:33]
Jillian Benzavale
I know.
[50:34]
Patrick Hines
No, it's a maleficent. That's.
[50:35]
Jillian Benzavale
Maleficent is.
[50:36]
Patrick Hines
I always feel like I am inverting it.
[50:38]
Jillian Benzavale
Yeah, me too.
[50:39]
Patrick Hines
I feel like I'm saying it wrong.
[50:40]
Jillian Benzavale
I think so.
[50:40]
Patrick Hines
Stresses me out.
[50:41]
Jillian Benzavale
I know.
[50:41]
Patrick Hines
So does corroborate.
[50:42]
Jillian Benzavale
Yeah.
[50:43]
Patrick Hines
Both of our witnesses say two things. One, that the shooter was wearing a plaid or checkered shirt. And two, that that shooter is Charles Guerin.
[50:50]
Janice Hawkins
Yes.
[50:50]
Jillian Benzavale
But the problem with is that when he came in for his interview on the night of the shooting, he was not wearing that identifiably plaid shirt.
[50:56]
Patrick Hines
Now we see the footage.
[50:57]
Janice Hawkins
Yes.
[50:57]
Patrick Hines
And he's wearing this very, very, very bright neon green number.
[51:01]
Janice Hawkins
Yes.
[51:01]
Patrick Hines
And Chief Gillian is like, oh, my God, it was so green. Too green. It was beyond green. It was so green. I can't even stand it.
[51:07]
Jillian Benzavale
It was my favorite color. It's even too green for me.
[51:09]
Patrick Hines
It was green.
[51:09]
Jillian Benzavale
It was pretty.
[51:10]
Patrick Hines
I like your sneaks.
[51:10]
Jillian Benzavale
Oh, thank you. Thank you so much. I am wearing new sneakers.
[51:13]
Patrick Hines
That's a great kind of like, wow, that's green. But as a compliment, green. That green.
[51:17]
Jillian Benzavale
No, the neon. Like Fresh Prince of Bel Air neon green is no good.
[51:21]
Patrick Hines
I done it in fresh prints. Let's move on.
[51:22]
Jillian Benzavale
Moving on.
[51:23]
Patrick Hines
If it ain't broke, like, let's leave it.
[51:24]
Jillian Benzavale
But more importantly, like, he's not wearing that plaid shirt. And so this is where.
[51:28]
Patrick Hines
This is bad for the case.
[51:29]
Jillian Benzavale
It's bad for the case.
[51:30]
Patrick Hines
And this is Friday. The trial starts Monday. What are we going to do?
[51:33]
Jillian Benzavale
Well, prosecutor John, as we were preparing.
[51:36]
Calvin Hawkins
The case for trial, and I'm meeting with, for the first time, Skyesha, just as a sort of desperate hope, not with any real expectation. I asked her if she took any pictures that night on her phone, and she told me she didn't.
[51:53]
Jillian Benzavale
Did you take any pictures with him at the party where he might have been wearing that shirt? She says no.
[51:56]
Patrick Hines
Also, you're just asking her about photos.
[51:58]
Jillian Benzavale
Now, three days before the case?
[52:00]
Patrick Hines
Because we just have two people saying, yeah, he was wearing a shirt I'd love to see proof of. I'm thinking as a jury member now.
[52:06]
Janice Hawkins
Yes.
[52:06]
Jillian Benzavale
Yes.
[52:06]
Patrick Hines
This is really bad.
[52:08]
Jillian Benzavale
Right. Because the shooter that these two people have identified, they're like, he was wearing a plaid shirt. We don't have him in a plaid shirt. We have him in a green shirt.
[52:14]
Patrick Hines
And the only footage we have of him from that night is in a green shirt.
[52:17]
Janice Hawkins
Yes.
[52:18]
Patrick Hines
This is bad.
[52:18]
Janice Hawkins
Yeah.
[52:19]
Patrick Hines
So here's the thing, though. There was a photo booth set up.
[52:21]
Janice Hawkins
Yes.
[52:22]
Patrick Hines
And Skyisha and Charles were together when the party started.
[52:25]
Jillian Benzavale
Charles is the shooter.
[52:26]
Patrick Hines
Charles is the shooter. They were dating when the party started. They were boyfriend, girlfriend.
[52:29]
Jillian Benzavale
Yes.
[52:29]
Patrick Hines
So they take photos together in the photo booth. Also, if there's a photo booth, take the pictures. You'll never regret it.
[52:34]
Jillian Benzavale
I love a photo. Never regret it.
[52:35]
Patrick Hines
I love a photo booth. And then when it prints out, write the date and where you were on.
[52:38]
Jillian Benzavale
The back of it totally.
[52:38]
Patrick Hines
And put them in a nice little place.
[52:40]
Jillian Benzavale
Listen. And also, if Jillian just stops in the middle of an episode and gives you advice, take it. Just take it.
[52:44]
Patrick Hines
Love a photo booth. They're so fun.
[52:46]
Jillian Benzavale
I love it too.
[52:46]
Patrick Hines
You will find those photo strips and really be filled with lots of. I've got one on my little wall.
[52:51]
Jillian Benzavale
With me and Daisy. It's the cutest thing.
[52:52]
Patrick Hines
Love a photo booth.
[52:53]
Jillian Benzavale
Yeah, sure.
[52:54]
Patrick Hines
Black and white, if possible. Color I'll take, but black and white, I think is the way to go.
[52:59]
Jillian Benzavale
God, wouldn't it be great to have a photo booth in your home?
[53:01]
Patrick Hines
I fucking. I would love that. Like a jukebox. A photo booth.
[53:03]
Jillian Benzavale
Uh huh. Uh, jukebox.
[53:05]
Patrick Hines
Remember in the craft where the mom only wanted a jukebox that plays Connie Francis and they're like, who's Connie Francis? She's like, ah, shut up, listen and learn, honey.
[53:13]
Jillian Benzavale
So Skyisha's like, no, no pictures on my own. But we did take pictures in the photo booth. John is like, do you still have those? She says, no. She says, I don' because when I saw my best friend Keisha was shot, I dropped the pictures on the ground next to her.
[53:27]
Patrick Hines
So here's what happened. I just want to slow down on this.
[53:29]
Janice Hawkins
Yeah.
[53:30]
Patrick Hines
They show up to the party, they're dating Sky Esha. And.
[53:32]
Jillian Benzavale
And the shooter.
[53:33]
Patrick Hines
And the shooter. They take a photo booth thing. Highly recommend. 15:10 recommend it totally. Here's what happens. Skyisha hears the gunshots. She sees Charles shooting into the crowd. She sees that her friend Nikisha has been killed. She is next to her friend Nikisha's body. In her anger, she throws down the photo booth pictures because fuck this guy.
[53:54]
Janice Hawkins
Yes.
[53:55]
Patrick Hines
And they are done. Broken up immediately. But she's so angry that she doesn't even want the picture. She throws them down. So John is like, wait a second.
[54:02]
Jillian Benzavale
Just Prosecutor John.
[54:04]
Patrick Hines
Prosecutor John. Wait a second. Could maybe against hope, please, prank to all deities. Like when you have food poisoning. The same deities, you call them all in. I really need help here. Everyone, if you're listening, please God, yeah. Could there be a photo of a photo in our crime scene photos?
[54:18]
Jillian Benzavale
Because he remembers seeing, right? He sees the crime scene photos and he remembers, wait a second. There was an envelope with a picture in it in crime scene photo. And he looks at the crime scene photo and he's like, you can barely, barely see the outline of a shirt. They go to the evidence box from five years ago. They find the envelope with the pictures of Skyisha and the shooter from the photo booth. Bada bing, bada boom. He's wearing the plaid shirt.
[54:43]
Patrick Hines
We got him. We got the photos. We got him.
[54:45]
Jillian Benzavale
We got him.
[54:45]
Patrick Hines
We got him.
[54:46]
Calvin Hawkins
In that moment in time, the physical evidence corroborating the testimony of those two key witnesses was added to the evidence of the trial or of the case. You can call it a smoking gun. In a case where there was no gun found.
[55:08]
Jillian Benzavale
There was a smoking gun in the case where the gun was never found.
[55:11]
Patrick Hines
Yeah. Where there is no smoking gun.
[55:12]
Janice Hawkins
Yeah.
[55:12]
Patrick Hines
Great. So everyone's very excited about this again. Talk about down to the wire. We're doing this Friday.
[55:19]
Jillian Benzavale
What was the plan? Should this not have happened?
[55:21]
Patrick Hines
I don't know.
[55:21]
Jillian Benzavale
You know what I mean?
[55:22]
Patrick Hines
I really. I don't know. I think John was like, I was just gonna really argue my ass off and hope that our two witnesses were good enough. But, I mean, I think he was going in there saying, I'm doing this for Keisha and her family.
[55:35]
Janice Hawkins
Yes.
[55:36]
Patrick Hines
Knowing that this is gonna be a major uphill battle.
[55:39]
Jillian Benzavale
Yep.
[55:39]
Patrick Hines
So it's September 19th, 2017. The trial starts six years later. Cause remember, Nikisha was killed in 2011.
[55:46]
Janice Hawkins
Yeah.
[55:47]
Jillian Benzavale
Courtroom is packed on both sides.
[55:50]
Patrick Hines
All of the Facebook Live people. So many people from around the world have been.
[55:54]
Jillian Benzavale
Yep, yep.
[55:55]
Patrick Hines
All eyes are on it. So Janice, Nikisha's mother says, like, it was hard, but she says the trial was therapeutic.
[56:00]
Janice Hawkins
Yes.
[56:01]
Patrick Hines
We have more witnesses who say that they saw Charles the shooter with a gun earlier at the party. Then we have our two witnesses saying that he shot the gun.
[56:10]
Janice Hawkins
Yes.
[56:11]
Patrick Hines
Now the defense is saying, give me a break. All we need here is a reasonable doubt. And let me tell you, jury, you have it.
[56:16]
Jillian Benzavale
Uh huh.
[56:17]
Patrick Hines
You have it. And I hate to say it like, I hear what they're saying in a courtroom.
[56:20]
Jillian Benzavale
Yeah.
[56:21]
Patrick Hines
Sitting here in my feelings. Fuck this guy.
[56:22]
Janice Hawkins
Yeah. Yeah.
[56:23]
Patrick Hines
But in a courtroom. But maybe that picture would have gotten me.
[56:25]
Jillian Benzavale
I think the picture is the. Without the picture, I'm not sure what would have happened.
[56:28]
Patrick Hines
Yeah.
[56:29]
Jillian Benzavale
And both sides argue pretty forcefully. And our reporter friend is saying when. When the case goes to the jury, she's like, it could have gone either way. Like, they both had good, solid points. I wasn't sure what was going to happen.
[56:40]
Patrick Hines
I agree. This was a very hard case walking.
[56:42]
Jillian Benzavale
Into a courtroom because we don't have the murder weapon. We don't. You know what I mean? Like, we don't. We can't connect it to the. Like, there's 150 people. No one. Only these two have come forward.
[56:50]
Patrick Hines
And I wonder if the fact that Michael Cooper recanted would be admissible because if I were defense, I'd be like, so he recanted, and now he's back, and they him on this bullshit charge, and now suddenly he's talking again. Like, what did they threaten him with? I don't know if that was admissible or not, but something I would do if I was a lawyer.
[57:05]
Jillian Benzavale
Well, September 26, 2017. It's the day of the verdict. It's also Calvin's birthday. It's also my mother's birthday.
[57:10]
Patrick Hines
Oh, my God.
[57:11]
Jillian Benzavale
I know.
[57:11]
Patrick Hines
Wow.
[57:12]
Jillian Benzavale
Charles Guerin is found guilty, which is crazy.
[57:14]
Janice Hawkins
Yeah.
[57:15]
Patrick Hines
Which is great news for everyone, but kind of. I mean, when I say this could have gone either way 100%. They must. They must have been terrifying.
[57:22]
Jillian Benzavale
And, you know, we're at home with Calvin and the family, and, like, Calvin still struggles to this day with his guilt and missing his daughter, and their.
[57:30]
Skyisha Pender
Son is saying, I don't think he sees the magnitude of what he's done, but that's because he's in his head all the time. The moment he gets out of his head, you can just see how amazing he is.
[57:44]
Kenyatta Hawkins
I was trying to give you the thumbs up.
[57:46]
Skyisha Pender
He took his circumstances and literally changed them. If that's not inspirational, I truly don't know what is.
[57:53]
Jillian Benzavale
He is able to step outside of himself and see what he did for Keisha and for our family.
[57:57]
Patrick Hines
This all happened because Calvin had had it.
[57:59]
Janice Hawkins
Yes.
[57:59]
Patrick Hines
And he went on Facebook Live, which was brand new at the time, 2011. Like, he didn't even know what he was doing. He was just like. Like, he said, I saw live. It said, three, two, one. That's. In Hollywood. They say action. Like, I'm just doing it. And he was so honest and raw, and he galvanized this community. But, like, he just hit a button.
[58:15]
Jillian Benzavale
I know.
[58:15]
Patrick Hines
And, like, spoke his truth, and now here we are. If he made it happen, without him, this would. We would not be here 100%.
[58:22]
Jillian Benzavale
And he did it out of fr and rage.
[58:24]
Patrick Hines
Yeah.
[58:25]
Jillian Benzavale
And it worked. And we.
[58:26]
Patrick Hines
Rage is a very powerful thing. I will tell you that.
[58:27]
Jillian Benzavale
Oh, girl.
[58:28]
Patrick Hines
Very powerful.
[58:29]
Jillian Benzavale
Charles Guerin was sentenced to 50 years in prison, and a 2018 appeal was denied.
[58:34]
Patrick Hines
Yeah. And now we're with Keisha's family, and it's time to really start the healing process.
[58:39]
Janice Hawkins
Yes.
[58:39]
Patrick Hines
Because if we. If you remember, Calvin was saying, I just wanted to be my anger. I didn't want to grieve. There was no room for grieving. I was angry. And so now that he used that anger channeled, it. And we got to hear and now this grieving process as like a family, this really connected family. And maybe they can come back to that and sort of of like, have some of that joy that they had for so much. And that doesn't take anything away from Nikisha.
[59:00]
Jillian Benzavale
Totally. I hope so. I want that for them. Like, you know, they just seem like a really incredible, tight unit, you know.
[59:07]
Patrick Hines
And that's what they say. Like, they're trying to find peace. It's not closure. There's no such thing as closure. But, like, they are so lucky that they all have each other and they can make shit happen and they can have delicious baked goods while they do it. Are you kidding?
[59:23]
Jillian Benzavale
Oh, girl. What's it called?
[59:25]
Patrick Hines
This is. Okay, so this is our second bonus episode. It's that series, Web of death. Episode 5 is called Facebook Live.
[59:31]
Jillian Benzavale
Yes, appropriately.
[59:32]
Patrick Hines
But it's really about the murder of Nikisha Hodges Hawkins.
[59:35]
Jillian Benzavale
Yes, fam. If you love what we do, come join us on Patreon. You've got over 450 full ad free bonus episodes to download and binge the second you sign up.
[59:42]
Patrick Hines
Wow.
[59:43]
Jillian Benzavale
I know.
[59:43]
Patrick Hines
That's a lot.
[59:43]
Jillian Benzavale
It's so many.
[59:44]
Patrick Hines
Just objectively, that's a big number.
[59:45]
Jillian Benzavale
It's a lot. It's where we cover all of the series that happen that are more than one episode. So it's like we did the Gabby Petito one and we did Ashley Madison.
[59:53]
Patrick Hines
Remember Ashley Madison? We did Bad Vegan. We did the Jinx. We're doing Scamanda. We did Anatomy of Lies. Lots of fake Cancer. We're doing Fox Hollow. We're doing Look Into My Eyes. We got like the Patreon is.
[60:04]
Jillian Benzavale
It's crazy.
[60:05]
Patrick Hines
I don't want to say popping, but I'm saying popping.
[60:07]
Jillian Benzavale
It's popping. We've got Drag bingo at the $5 level once a month. It's my favorite thing. SMA's the best ad free episodes. We got a tier where we send you some stuff sometimes. It's just a really fun place if you want more of.
[60:17]
Patrick Hines
Sometimes we make special episodes for you. Like we were doing Unsolved Mysteries and we have some new ideas brewing for that too. So we'll see. Just if it's a party, everyone's invited. If you want to come to the party, that's great.
[60:27]
Jillian Benzavale
Yep.
[60:28]
Patrick Hines
That's it.
[60:28]
Jillian Benzavale
That's it.
[60:29]
Patrick Hines
You're invited, fam.
[60:29]
Jillian Benzavale
We love you. Thanks for checking in. Our bonus episodes. They're so fun. We love doing this.
[60:32]
Patrick Hines
And there's more coming. This is only our second bonus.
[60:35]
Jillian Benzavale
I know we got we like 25 this year.
[60:36]
Patrick Hines
I was gonna say we have like double digits coming your way. So stay tuned for that shortly. Now that, like, this is what happens with the bonus episodes. Now that the flight gates are open, you will be getting these bonus episodes regularly.
[60:46]
Jillian Benzavale
Truly, just let you know. All right, we love you.
[60:48]
Patrick Hines
All right, we love you.
[60:49]
Jillian Benzavale
Bye.