438: Web of Death: Body of Evidence

Summary

True Crime Obsessed Episode 438: Web of Death: Body of Evidence Release Date: June 26, 2025

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Introduction

In this gripping episode of True Crime Obsessed, hosts Patrick Hines and Jillian Panzavalli delve deep into a complex and haunting true crime case titled "Web of Death: Body of Evidence." This episode intertwines meticulous investigation, personal dedication, and the relentless pursuit of justice, highlighting the significant role of amateur sleuths in solving cold cases.

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Case Overview

The episode centers around the mysterious discovery of a skull encased in a bucket of cement at a truck stop in Kearney, Missouri, on August 28, 2001 (09:10). Initially reported by Susan Smith as a kidnapping incident involving her two sons, Michael and Alex, the case took a dark turn when Susan was arrested and ultimately convicted for the murder of her own children, falsely blaming a black man for the heinous crime.

Patrick Hines [09:10]: "A skull was found in a bucket of cement in Kearney, Missouri. It is as creepy and ghoulish as it sounds."

This frightening discovery raised suspicions, leading Ellen Lynch, an amateur internet sleuth and director of the Doe Network, to take a personal interest in identifying the remains and uncovering the truth behind Greg May's disappearance.

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Ellen Lynch and the Doe Network

Ellen Lynch's journey begins with the devastation caused by her cousin's tragic loss, inspiring her to become an internet sleuth. The Doe Network, where Ellen serves as director, is a crucial platform used primarily by volunteers to match missing persons with unidentified remains.

Ellen Lynch [02:09]: "I feel that nobody helps these souls that are lost out there. And somebody's got to do it. Why can't that somebody be me?"

Ellen's dedication to the case is evident as she navigates through numerous websites and records, meticulously piecing together clues to identify the skeletal remains. Her persistence leads her to a critical breakthrough in March 2005, when a positive match is confirmed.

Ellen Lynch [36:11]: "The blood was determined to be Gregory May's."

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Community and Key Individuals

The narrative introduces several pivotal characters who play significant roles in the unfolding of the case:

• Greg May: A well-respected tattoo artist and antique collector whose disappearance triggers the investigation. Greg was known for his generosity, allowing his associate Moose to crash in his basement and teaching him the art of tattooing.

  Patrick Hines [14:18]: "Greg is such a character. He goes to the library every day and reads the Wall Street Journal."

• Shannon May: Greg's daughter, whose unwavering commitment to finding her father drives much of the investigation's momentum. Her emotional journey underscores the personal toll of unresolved disappearances.

  Jillian Panzavalli [26:00]: "This is her life."

• Moose (Doug de Bruyne): Greg's associate and the primary suspect in his murder. Initially portrayed as a friend, Moose's involvement becomes increasingly suspicious as evidence mounts against him.

  Jillian Panzavalli [22:28]: "So Moose and the girlfriend are now in Arizona. And Greg's antiques are all over the place."

• Chief Dennis Schroeder: The dedicated Chief of Police in Bellevue, Iowa, who collaborates with Ellen and the DA to build a case against Moose and his accomplice.

  Patrick Hines [22:10]: "Chief Dennis, you didn't make it up."

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The Investigation

The investigation progresses through a series of meticulous steps:

1. Discovery of the Skull: The finding of the skull in Missouri sets off alarm bells, leading to a deeper inquiry into Greg May's whereabouts.

2. Ellen's Research: Utilizing the Doe Network, Ellen discovers that the skeletal remains belong to Gregory May, despite initial resistance from the network's gatekeepers regarding the match's validity.

3. Uncovering the Truth: Through relentless research and collaboration with law enforcement, Ellen identifies Greg May, providing the necessary evidence to move forward with the prosecution.

Todd Matthews [26:05]: "Finally, in March 2005, three months after I had made the submission, area director from Iowa got back with me. She told me it was a positive match, and I just kind of melted."

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Legal Proceedings and Resolution

With Ellen's identification of Gregory May's remains, the DA's office faces the challenge of prosecuting the case without a body. However, the newfound evidence significantly strengthens the prosecution's position.

• Arrest and Trial: Moose and his girlfriend are arrested for theft and later charged with Greg May's murder. The trial emphasizes the overwhelming circumstantial evidence linking them to the crime.

  Jillian Panzavalli [43:22]: "This is horrendous. I don't think I've ever seen anything this extreme."

• Verdict: The court convicts Moose of first-degree murder, sentencing him to life without parole. Julie, Moose's girlfriend, receives a lesser sentence for perjury but retains her immunity deal, raising questions about legal loopholes in such cases.

  Patrick Hines [49:04]: "The killer is found guilty of first-degree murder and sentenced to life without parole for the murder of Gregory May."

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Ellen's Heroic Efforts

Ellen Lynch's unwavering commitment and passion are celebrated throughout the episode. Her efforts not only brought justice to Greg May but also highlighted the critical impact of volunteer internet sleuths in solving cold cases.

Ellen Lynch [51:36]: "Thank you for your efforts to match the remains of Gregory May in the murder investigation of the killer. And he thanks her and, like, all the volunteers out there in the world who are doing this."

The episode concludes by emphasizing the importance of community involvement and the potential for individuals to make a significant difference in the pursuit of truth and justice.

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Conclusion

"Web of Death: Body of Evidence" serves as a powerful testament to the relentless pursuit of truth by dedicated individuals like Ellen Lynch. Through meticulous research, collaboration with law enforcement, and an unwavering commitment to justice, the episode underscores the profound impact that amateur sleuths can have in solving perplexing true crime cases. This episode not only provides closure for Greg May's family but also inspires listeners to recognize the potential within themselves to contribute to meaningful investigations.

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Notable Quotes:

• Ellen Lynch [02:09]: "I feel that nobody helps these souls that are lost out there. And somebody's got to do it. Why can't that somebody be me?"
• Patrick Hines [09:10]: "A skull was found in a bucket of cement in Kearney, Missouri. It is as creepy and ghoulish as it sounds."
• Todd Matthews [26:05]: "Finally, in March 2005, three months after I had made the submission, area director from Iowa got back with me. She told me it was a positive match, and I just kind of melted."
• Jillian Panzavalli [43:22]: "This is horrendous. I don't think I've ever seen anything this extreme."
• Ellen Lynch [51:36]: "Thank you for your efforts to match the remains of Gregory May in the murder investigation of the killer. And he thanks her and, like, all the volunteers out there in the world who are doing this."

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This detailed summary captures the essence of Episode 438, highlighting key discussions, insights, and conclusions drawn by the hosts. By focusing on the core true crime narrative and the heroic efforts of those involved, the summary provides a comprehensive and engaging overview for both loyal listeners and newcomers.

Transcript

[Patrick Hines]

This is our first time recording since the news broke. But congratulations to you and yours. Taylor owns her masters. I saw and everything, so I'm wearing my reputation shirt and. Because the last time we talked about this, you were like, when is Reputation TV coming? Guess what, girl?

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yeah, so it's not coming.

[Patrick Hines]

Then let's do an after party and I'll walk through it.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Oh, my God, I can't wait.

[Patrick Hines]

But yeah, she basically said, like, there will be no reputation. There will just be explanation, which is the reverse from what she said before.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Oh, my God.

[Patrick Hines]

But no, it's all very exciting. She owns her masters. It's a major, major thing for artists everywhere. The music industry has been changed forever. It's like a really, really. So everyone go listen to whatever the hell you want to listen to with a clear head. Hey, Taylor. Congrats, girl.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Hi. Jillian Panzavalli.

[Patrick Hines]

Hello. Patrick Hines.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Today we're doing Web of Death, Season 1, Episode 16. It's called Body of Evidence. And my note is that Body of Evidence sounds like a Kim Basinger movie from like the 90s.

[Patrick Hines]

Wasn't it like a Madonna movie? Wasn't it? Wasn't it Body of Evidence? Hell yeah.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Oh, my God, yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Wasn't it.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Wasn't there also, like, Boxing Helena, weird sex movie where they cut some woman up or something in like a box?

[Patrick Hines]

What are you talking about?

[Jillian Panzavalli]

I don't know.

[Patrick Hines]

Body of Evidence was a. I was right. A 1993 thriller mystery starring Madonna, Willem Dafoe, Julianne Moore.

[Ellen Lynch]

What?

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Julianne Moore and Madonna, together at last.

[Patrick Hines]

Together in, like a sexy thriller.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Oh, my God.

[Patrick Hines]

You know what I'm watching later?

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Amazing.

[Patrick Hines]

1993, like, sex thriller.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Is there like a theme song? Tikavel.

[Patrick Hines]

Maybe it was. Was it like secret or something? When did Secret come out? Maybe 93. That's too early.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

This is the gayest intro we've ever done.

[Patrick Hines]

Welcome.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

I'm so into. I would ask you what we're talking about today, but I just said it.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. So this is our bonus episodes that we drop in. And this is the last episode of Web of Death. It's a really good show. It's really victim focused.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

There's only. Do we do all six?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, we did all six. So, I mean, make a second season, I guess.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

I love it because we don't see this style anywhere else where we are seeing the mystery and the resolution at the same time.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, it's really. I think they're really interesting stories that need to be told and it's super victim focused. I like the Series. So I hope there's more.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

In the opening, we get to see Bob Ruff every time, like in the credits. I love that.

[Patrick Hines]

I know, I know, I know.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Hi, Bobby.

[Patrick Hines]

Hi, Bob.

[Todd Matthews]

I feel that nobody helps these souls that are lost out there. And somebody's got to do it. Why can't that somebody be me?

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Shocking.

[Patrick Hines]

In 30 plus years, never come across something like this. And I hope the good lord never lets me do that again.

[Ellen Lynch]

His entire life went missing. Everything he owned, down to his toothbrush.

[Patrick Hines]

There was a stain found on the cup.

[Ellen Lynch]

And that's when we immediately knew something was terribly wrong.

[Todd Matthews]

I was obsessed with finding this person.

[Patrick Hines]

There are just so many places to hide a body. Where do you begin to love?

[Todd Matthews]

This was one that I had to solve.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Right at the top, we meet Ellen Lynch. She lives in Gulfport, Mississippi. She's been there since 2001. She met this guy Chip online. Now, I am not primed to, like, just like, straight guys off the bat. I love Chip.

[Patrick Hines]

No, we like Chip.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

I love him.

[Patrick Hines]

They met online. And also Loki is their dog. They have two cats. Do we ever see the animals? No. Hi, friends. Loving you. Chip says that Ellen is, quote, a girl to ride the river with.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

What the hell does that mean?

[Patrick Hines]

I think she's. That means she's like a ride or die. She's like, she's your bestie, but she's like a good partner.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

And they, they love each other. Like, I think that, like, we're going to learn that when Ellen is, like, investigating these. Because she's like an Internet sleuth. She's like an amateur Internet sleuth. And when she gets her teeth into something, I think he doesn't see her for weeks at a time.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. You know, because he says, like, she has a good heart. He goes, I couldn't want anything else. They just love each other.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

I think he like her dinners and, like, leaves them outside the door for her to eat whenever she's ready.

[Patrick Hines]

Nice job, Chip.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Love that.

[Patrick Hines]

We love Chip.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Absolutely.

[Patrick Hines]

So it's 1994. This is crazy. Just stay with me as I unpack it because I also have, like. This was shocking related news.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

It was shocking to me.

[Patrick Hines]

So Ellen gets a call from her mother saying that Ellen's cousin's boys were missing. Michael and Alex. That these two little boys were taken. Federal authorities have launched a nationwide search for a carjacker. According to his victim, he not only stole her car, he stole her children, too.

[Todd Matthews]

The mother, Susan, told the police that a black man had kidnapped her kids. And hijacked the car.

[Patrick Hines]

The mother of Michael and Alex, the little boys who were taken, goes on the news and is like, oh, a black guy stole my car and my kids. And she's lying.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

She's lying.

[Patrick Hines]

Now, the mother.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

I was like, wait, this sounds really familiar.

[Patrick Hines]

So she's immediately arrested and charged with the murder of the two kids because she ends up confessing.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

This is the Susan Smith case. This is a very famous case. She's in prison for life. Of course, she, like, had to blame it on this, like, scary black guy. Like, Susan Schop.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Outrageous.

[Patrick Hines]

I found a doc. We're doing it on the regular feed. It's already on the calendar. Oh, we are. Okay.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

I was wondering, how have we not? I thought this was going to be about the Susan Smith kids.

[Patrick Hines]

I thought so, too, and it wasn't. Get in the middle. I paused it, found the doc, put it on the cow. I got you.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

So amazing. All right, good.

[Patrick Hines]

Be warned, though. I will. And we will say it at the top. It is a. It's an incredibly hard story. This is a mother who killed her.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Kids, who killed her own kids, and.

[Patrick Hines]

Then, like, tries to frame it on a black eye. Like, it's. It's really bad.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

But not since, like, Chris Watts, where, like, we learn what the little kid said right before. It's hard.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm just telling you now. Yeah. So if you want to skip it. Whatever. If you want to just get yourself prepared, fine. So that. But Ellen says, this devastated her whole family. But this. She goes, this is how I started sleuthing.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

To, like, find the truth.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

It's weird that the Susan Smith case is a footnote in this story.

[Patrick Hines]

That's why I was like, we got.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

To find the doc about it for sure.

[Patrick Hines]

So we're going to. So she.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yeah, she says, like, when she was searching for the boys, she stumbled across the DOE Network, and she said it had missing persons and unidentified bodies. And Todd Matthews is here. He's the director of the DOE Network.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes. What a head of hair on this guy.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Oh, my God, this guy. I was like, do I like him? Do I not like him? I like this guy. Head of hair for days. He says, we.

[Patrick Hines]

He's such a character.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Such a character. And he's, like, the gatekeeper of the DOE because the DOE network is primarily used by these Internet sleuths. Right. So imagine, like, dealing with those people all day long.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, you know, for better or worse.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

For better. That's what I mean. Like, some are great. Some are really difficult. I can't Imagine you're the point person between the people on the Internet trying to solve crimes.

[Patrick Hines]

It's a lot. And then going through all that information, it's like a lot. So Ellen sees this website and she can't believe it.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

For every Ellen, there's got to be 100, not Ellen.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

So she's like, oh my God. Like she kind of can't believe what she's seeing. There are so many cases, so many missing people, all. She feels, she doesn't feel overwhelmed, she feels inspired. She can't wait to get to work.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

And she's saying because of her experience with Susan Smith, her cousin's wife and the, and the kids, she says, like looking at all these unsolved cases, looking at all these unclaimed bodies, she knows how those families must feel and she knows she has to help them.

[Patrick Hines]

And she wants the harder cases. She goes, I want the ones that people don't really want to look at or feel like there's nothing there. Like those are the cases she wants.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Travel down the road.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian Panzavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian Panzavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian Panzavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian Panzavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian Panzavalli]

Thank you, Miracle maid for sponsoring this episode and keeping us sane in these dog days of summer.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, seriously.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Which will come eventually.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes. So one day she's on the DOE network.

[Todd Matthews]

I'm scrolling through, looking at missing persons and I came across this skull in a bucket of cement in Kearney, Missouri. It said it was a male Caucasian, 50s to 60s, and there wasn't much else there. That was all the information they gave.

[Patrick Hines]

A skull was found in a bucket of cement in Kearney, Missouri.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

And we see it, we see a picture of it, and it is as creepy and ghoulish as it sounds. It's a skull encased in cement in a bucket.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. So all we know on the Doe network is that it's a white male between 50 and 60 years old, about 6ft tall, but that's it.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yeah. So we Learned it was August 28, 2001, that the skull in the cement was found at a truck stop. But the cops don't believe that the truck stop is the crime scene. And because this truck stop is off I35, the sheriff at the time is saying this could have happened anywhere on the i35 corridor. Like anywhere from Canada to Mexico.

[Patrick Hines]

Todd from the DOE network goes, imagine the surprise of that. We're not here to have fun. What are we doing here?

[Jillian Panzavalli]

You know, Todd's got to inject a little levity into his work.

[Patrick Hines]

It's true.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

It's pretty morbid at Todd's.

[Patrick Hines]

Imagine the surprise of that. Like, I can imagine it or I can't imagine it? It's horrifying.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

No, I. The people who like, invest their time, their free time, by the way, none of them get paid for this. To sift through these cases and live in that darkness all day long, like.

[Patrick Hines]

God love you, it's crazy.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

The whole West Memphis three thing. I'll tell you more about it.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

The donut work?

[Patrick Hines]

No, just like working on cases and going through case files and like, it is, it's. It's what I spent my whole Weekend doing.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Wow.

[Patrick Hines]

And it's like, it's, it's just like it is a lot to be in that world and like, find things and it's a different, like, pocket of your brain that you have to access in a way.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Are you keeping, like, notes and the whole thing. You're going to write a book about this someday maybe.

[Patrick Hines]

So clearly someone was murdered and the killer is trying to hide the body. So that's also what we know.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yeah. And it's also just the head. You. You know what I mean? Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And like, what happened? So, like something horrible happened. This is a murder.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

So Shannon May is here. She is from Lake Geneva, Wisconsin.

[Ellen Lynch]

This is the town I grew up as a child. It's a small, little Midwestern town. People are very friendly. It's a tourist town. It's just about an hour and a half north of Chicago and about 45 minutes south of Milwaukee. So there's a beautiful spring fed lake. There's lots of activity going on here. It's a quaint little, very friendly neighborhood town.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

While she's describing her town, we're seeing like, people in trucks doing donuts on a frozen lake. Yeah, this is not safe. I don't care how frozen that lake is, that truck weighs two tons.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

And if you fall through the ice in your truck, you're gonna die.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my gosh.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

A freezing, watery, miserable death.

[Patrick Hines]

Is someone gonna shove cocaine up your nose while it's happening too?

[Jillian Panzavalli]

I was telling that story the other day. I fully believed going into middle school that I was gonna be injected with cocaine so they would get me.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, we don't know. Why are they taking your.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

We don. We don't know. We don't know. But like, I'm watching these people doing donuts on a frozen. This is not safe. Meanwhile, she's talking about how, like, quaint and cute and adorable her town is. I'm terrified.

[Patrick Hines]

She says it was magical. Every day was a new adventure.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Well, her childhood seems also like a nightmare. Her dad would take her fishing and camping and flying kites all the time. All the time. Shannon.

[Patrick Hines]

He's making a joke. He knows. He just means he wouldn't want to do it.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

It sounds amazing for you, honey. I. And I want to meet you. You seem so amazing.

[Patrick Hines]

Kites. Like, she just had like this great little childhood.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

I am at a point, I am at an age now where I want to experience other people's experiences that they. I would really go and spend a weekend with Shannon and go camping. I would really do it. Like, I Want to like, have experiences that I would never have with people who like, love those things.

[Patrick Hines]

You can't complain the whole time though.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

I.

[Patrick Hines]

Part of the deal is, like, if you're going to do it, you got to do it and not make Shannon regret it.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

That's very fair. While I have your attention, can we talk about Jane Goodall for five seconds? This is a total non sequitur fam. Somebody sent me a TikTok of Jane Goodall talking about working with, you know, she's the one that goes in the woods and studies the chimps and whatever. Somebody asked her, like, let's just say for argument's sake that a six foot tall humanoid species existed somewhere in there, basically saying, like, does big. Is Bigfoot real? And she said she would go into the jungles and have conversations with elders from tribes that did not ever see other, other humans that had no contact with the outside world. And she threw an interpreter, asked them, she just asked them, have you ever seen a monkey without a tail? Now they have no context for this because they don't know about like pop culture. They don't know what Bigfoot is. They all they know is what they know from what they see in the woods because that's all the life that they have. And she said that through the interpreter. Three different elders were like, oh yeah, we've seen that. About 6ft tall, monkey with a tail.

[Patrick Hines]

Couldn't that just be a different kind of primate?

[Jillian Panzavalli]

No, they're saying like it's, it's what we think of as like Bigfoot, like a monkey. Like a monkey without a tail is Bigfoot. And they totally exist deep in the forest.

[Patrick Hines]

Wow.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yeah, Jane Goodall says so.

[Patrick Hines]

Thanks, Jane.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Thanks, Jane.

[Patrick Hines]

Hooking us up.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yeah, totally.

[Patrick Hines]

So Shannon's dad is Greg and Greg was a tattoo artist and he owns Greg's Tattoo Shop. And he was awesome at what he did. It came really natural to him. Being a tattoo artist is really fucking hard and he was just like able to do it.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

I can't draw stick people. I don't know anybody draws anything, let alone uses like a needle pen to do it on your own.

[Patrick Hines]

And then like shading and like dimensions, like it's really.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

And they're gorgeous. Like, tattoos can be beautiful.

[Patrick Hines]

Speaking of, Bob Ruff Zach from Truth and justice is a tattoo artist. That's what he does. That's where him and Bob met. He and Bob met.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Shannon is just saying that, like he was better at it than anybody else, but like he also liked to keep his personal life very separate from his work.

[Patrick Hines]

Hell, yeah. Greg Ladder for the people in the back.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

I know, but they said.

[Patrick Hines]

Shannon says his work was very well recognized. Like, he really made a great name for himself over the years.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Well, but what she also says is that at the time, the perception of people in the tattoo world was that it would attract, like, a seedier set of people.

[Patrick Hines]

So stupid.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

So, like. Right. But, like, he didn't want Shannon telling anybody their, like, actual address. He didn't want anybody knowing where they actually lived.

[Patrick Hines]

And because, like, a lot of people have this image, Greg didn't fit that image. So he, like, he wasn't covered in tattoos.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

He was, like, so clean cut.

[Ellen Lynch]

He actually went so far as to iron his jeans, which I always thought was funny. He would go to the library every day and read the Wall Street Journal. You'd hear the buzzing of the needles in the tattoo shop, and he would have the stock market on the radio.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

This guy, I love him. He's cute as hell.

[Patrick Hines]

Shannon says he looked like Buddy Holly when he was younger and the Marlboro man when he got older.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

I mean, and we see the pictures, and those are actually very good descriptions.

[Patrick Hines]

Shannon, he was also.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Let's talk more about it when we go camping.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Greg contains multitudes because he's also an avid antique collector, specifically Civil War weapons, like, crazy valuable. Like, 200. He had, like, a collection worth 250 grand.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

I was a little bit like, okay, I want to.

[Patrick Hines]

What?

[Jillian Panzavalli]

I want a right side of history. This here. You know what I mean? That, like, is it, like, collecting Civil War antiques? Is. That's. That's dicey.

[Patrick Hines]

Is that. I mean, would they. Here's a question. Would they say Confederate antiques or would.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

They leave it open that, like, the Civil War was about ending slavery? Right, Right. So, like, it's kind of. I don't know. I just want to make sure that, like, you're saying we're on the right side of history.

[Patrick Hines]

I would hope that maybe they'd say he was a Confederate, and then we.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Would, like, move on to a different character. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Instead of just, like, kind of tricking us with the whole, like. Like general Civil War vibe.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Exactly. And we don't get any information on that. Let's assume. Good of Greg.

[Patrick Hines]

They said specifically Civil War weapons. I'm going to interpret that as the North.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

And while we're in a down moment, Shannon, when I come for camping, I'm not getting in the car and going on the lake that I'm drawing along.

[Patrick Hines]

Shannon, let Me remind you, it is your choice to send this invitation. It's not a subpoena. It's an invitation.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

It's just, I will go camping. I will fly kites. I'm not getting in a car and going on a frozen lake. I'm not doing that.

[Patrick Hines]

That's fine. I don't think I have a family. I don't think anyone's asking it to. I think you're safe. This is a cocaine free zone. We're not getting on the ice.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Taylor Swift on the Graham Norton show telling the story about the time that she.

[Patrick Hines]

No, you don't want to do that.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

No, she would know it was. She was spending a day with a Rolling Stone interviewer and she's like, I just wanted to be cool. I just wanted to be myself. And twice in one day, she got into a car accident, like a fender bender. And the second time, the writer goes, I've got a family.

[Patrick Hines]

I have a family. So good. Travel down the road.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Back again, girl. Steve just got back from his London trip. Golden missed him so much. The way that he jumped all over Steve when Steve walked in the door.

[Patrick Hines]

Can I tell you something? Dogs are the best. Pets are the best. I came back from checking the mail. Fiona acted like I just came home from war after 15 years. Okay. The point is, we love our pets.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yes. And oh. Funnily enough, today's episode is sponsored by the ASPCA Pet Health Insurance Program. Get that?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. The ASPCA Pet Health Insurance Program offers customizable accident and illness plans, making it easier for pet parents like you to help your pet get the care they may need. Yeah.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

The ASPCA pet health insurance program has been around for over 18 years, and they've helped more than 600,000 pets during that time.

[Patrick Hines]

They allow you to customize your plan, helping ensure that your pet's plan is as unique as they are.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Because vet bills can really add up, especially when you're least expecting it. My God, who hasn't experienced that?

[Patrick Hines]

Seriously, it's simple. Use their app to submit a claim and you'll receive reimbursement for eligible vet bills directly into your bank account account.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

So fam. To explore coverage, visit aspca pet insurance.com TCO that's aspcapetinsurance.com TCO Again, that's aspcapetInsurance.com.

[Patrick Hines]

TCO this is a paid advertisement. Insurance is underwritten by either Independence American Insurance Company or United States Fire Insurance Company and produced by PTZ Insurance Agency Limited. The ASPCA is not an insurer and is not engaged in the business of insurance. Insurance. So back to Ellen and the DOE network.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So she found this case with the skull. She's searching day and night.

[Todd Matthews]

I was obsessed with finding this person back then. There wasn't any Twitter or Facebook or anything like that. You had to type in state of Iowa missing persons or state of Texas missing persons.

[Patrick Hines]

She goes. I was obsessed with finding this missing person. She wants to find out everything she can. Not just about this person, but their family too.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yes, yes.

[Patrick Hines]

So we learned that there are always about 80,000 missing person cases in the United States. And remember, those are only reported cases.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Is it just me or did that sound low compared to like statistics we've heard in the past?

[Patrick Hines]

Because it's. I think it's because it's only the reported cases to keep in mind. It's not like. It's not that there are 80,000 missing people. It's that there are 80,000 cases, active.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Cases being worse, which is a very.

[Patrick Hines]

Different, very important distinction. So there are possibly up to 40,000 unidentified bodies. And Todd says that is a silent mass dis.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yeah. I mean that is so sad and shocking. 40 like. And the work of the Doe network trying to connect the missing people with the unclaimed bodies. Yeah. That is like there should be a government agency doing that.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Not closing. The Department of Education. Doing this.

[Patrick Hines]

Doing this.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yeah, yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Just helping people.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

That wasn't clear.

[Patrick Hines]

Keep the Department of education open for as long as human.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

I and about 90% of Americans agree with that. I mean. Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

My best friend is an assistant principal of the New York City public school system. So. Yeah.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So the remains are usually close to where the person went missing. So that's where Ellen Stark. Right. She's gonna start searching close and works her way out. That's usually what we do in any kind of investigation, whether it's finding a missing person, finding, I'm sorry to say, like the rest of someone's body, or even like when a kid goes missing, you talk to the parents first, work your way out. Totally. This is what we're doing.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

The only difference here is that these remains were found on a truck stop on a very. Like a well traveled highway.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. So.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

And we're clearly left there to like not. You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. No, that's why we're talking to Ellen. Cause she's like, she likes the hardest cases. This is a very hard case.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yep, yep, exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

So we're back with Shannon and Greg, the tattoo artist.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yes.

[Ellen Lynch]

So she tells us My parents separated and divorced in 1977, but they always remained friends. When I was a teenager, we moved to California. When my father came out, every holiday, we would talk on the phone very often.

[Patrick Hines]

Everyone was very present in each other's lives.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Now we mean Lil Greg, Lil Greg. Lil Greg works with Big Greg.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

I love. Well, is his name really Greg? I love this guy.

[Patrick Hines]

Greg Kremser. Yeah, is his name.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

He got tattoos from Big Greg, and he became, like, an apprentice to Big Greg. And then when Big Greg wanted to retire, he was going to sell the store to Lil Greg, and Lil Greg was going to get the money from his dad. But then his dad died.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

And so he calls Big Greg and he's like, bro, my dad died. I can't buy the store anymore. And, like, essentially he says, Big Greg gave Lil Greg the store. Now he's standing next to Shannon when he's telling us the story. And I was like, that's a sweet story. He took care of Shannon, too, though, right?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. I think because this guy, like, Big Greg, taught Little Greg, like, the ropes of the shop. And then Big Greg was like, you know what you do? You take care of your family. Like, we'll figure something out when you're ready.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

And then eventually gives them the story. I just want to know that, like, Shannon gets to share in the process.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm sure Shannon was like, I'm fine not running a tattoo shop.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Totally.

[Patrick Hines]

I guess you kind of need to be into the.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

I guess that's true.

[Patrick Hines]

Or at least know how to. I don't know.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

I just. I look at the look on Shannon's face, and he's like, he just gave me the store. I was like, okay, well, that was her inheritance, but okay, I'm sure.

[Patrick Hines]

I think Shannon, you think she's okay? I think she's.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

So she'll tell me when we go camping again.

[Patrick Hines]

Shannon, your choice. So Greg, Big Greg, Greg May, who we're talking about here, retired at 54 years old. He worked super hard his whole life. He was able to retire at a very young age.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

54.

[Patrick Hines]

54 is, like, not nothing. And he settled down right around the.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Corner for this one.

[Patrick Hines]

He settled down in Bellevue, Iowa, right across the Mississippi river, where we get.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

To meet Chief of Police Dennis Schroeder. I love this guy.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. He's been here for 31 years. He started as a patrolman, worked his way out.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

He invented a name for Bellevue. He calls it a bedroom community. I'm just kidding. He didn't.

[Patrick Hines]

I was like, what?

[Jillian Panzavalli]

But he Goes. He goes. I have a name for what we call Bellevue. He's like, I call it like a bedroom community.

[Patrick Hines]

I was like, Dennis, girl.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Chief Dennis, you didn't make it up.

[Patrick Hines]

Now from Chief Dennis, we have to talk about Moose. Moose is this guy Doug. But Shannon only ever knew him as Moose.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

For people of a certain age, I'm sure you're all thinking the same thing. To us, Moose only exists. And you can't do that on television. Oh, do you remember Moose? And Alistair and Lanis.

[Patrick Hines]

I remember Alanis Morrison. I remember. You can't say I don't know, cuz he'll get slimes.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

You can't go to barf because he all the hammer. But like Moose's real name was Christine, but they called her Moose.

[Patrick Hines]

What does she look like?

[Jillian Panzavalli]

She was just like a cute girl. Like she's just like blonde, you know, like blonde little Bob or whatever. But when they said. They said Moose a thousand. And all I could think of was you cancel that occasion.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, well, this Moose sucks.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

He sucks. He's a big guy.

[Ellen Lynch]

He was just always a guy that was at the shop or my dad would go and have maybe a beer with him afterwards. Eventually after Moose hanging around the tattoo shop for a while, my father eventually took him under his wing. He offered to show him how to tattoo so that he could have a trade. So as time went on, they did develop some sort of a friendship.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Greg is sort of taking Moose under.

[Patrick Hines]

His wing based on the one picture we see of Moose. He looks like a menal bastard. Looks like a real piece of shit.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

He's the guy that would apply for the mall Santa job and not. Oh my God, not get it.

[Patrick Hines]

Gross. I know, gross.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

So yeah, not like this guy. I'm a shoe in for that job. Yeah, I'd get it.

[Patrick Hines]

Do they still do it? Oh, what oh, what did I do?

[Jillian Panzavalli]

I wasn't expecting you to agree so quickly that I'd make a perfect mall Santa. What about me?

[Patrick Hines]

Because you would be excited to see all the kids. Because you wanted. You wanted to do it. Oh, stop. You were excited about something. So I said, yeah, you'd be great.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

You don't have to. Yes. And everything well. Oh my God.

[Patrick Hines]

So this Dunk Moose guy is always at the tattoo shop?

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

He and Greg develop this friendship and Greg like teaches him how to do tattoos, which again is not easy.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

And he says Shannon says he taught him how to do it so he would have a trade. Like he's really trying to help this guy.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. And then even more so Greg lets Moose crash in his basement until he can get on his feet. Like, Greg is really helping this guy out. Really going out on a limb for.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

This piece of shit. And Detective Dennis, who's like the chief of police of Bellevue at this point, he's like, greg and Moose, they stuck out a little bit when they first moved to town. So he checked him out. Yeah. But Detective Dennis says they seem like good buds.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

He said they reminded me of me and my friends. We get together, you know, Buds.

[Patrick Hines]

Wow.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

And I was wondering if this was going to a gay place. It's not.

[Patrick Hines]

It's not, because we meet Jan, and I love Jan. Jan is Greg's. At the time, she was his girlfriend.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

She is the embodiment of. Of, like, chill. You know, Some people have, like, no chill. She is the embodiment of chill. She loves you. They met at a bar one night.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, she, like, breaks my heart. Jan, I love her.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

I know. I know. He asked if he could buy her a drink. She's like, sure. And then, like, bada bing, bada boom. They're in a relationship.

[Patrick Hines]

And Greg really loved Bellevue, but he hated the winter. And he wanted to move to Florida with Jan to start a new life. And she was like. I was really. That he asked.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Let me say the way. Tom, can we hear this? The way this question? She goes, yeah. Greg loved it here, but he hated the wintertime. He hated being cold, and he wanted to move down to Florida. And he asked me if I wanted to go, and I said, sure. I said, sure.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. But, like, I guess they ask her, like, how did that make you feel? And she so sweetly goes, I was happy that Greg asked me. I was ready to go.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

I know. I just love. I said, sure.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, jam.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

I know, I know.

[Patrick Hines]

So back with Ellen Leach researching the skull case. She's working like crazy. She's narrowing it down. It is consuming her.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

And she says with these hard cases, she can usually narrow it down to two or three possibilities. That is incredible.

[Patrick Hines]

And husbandship is like. She'd wake up in the middle of the night with ideas. She had a notebook next to her bed. I mean, this was really. It's all she thought about.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

It's her life.

[Patrick Hines]

So she finds a missing person that she thinks could be the match for the skull. It's the right age.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Went missing right before the skull was found. This person's in Chicago, which is like 450 miles away. It's a stretch, but maybe it still.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Falls under her 500 miles max. And she said, the timing was right. He went missing right before the remains were found. I thought you'd like this. It seemed like he could be in the. It could be a mob head.

[Patrick Hines]

And I was like, chicago, I know. Maybe, you know, we'll see. It's no Vegas, but sure.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So here's how the DOE network works. Each state has an admin, and if you have a possible match, you have to turn it to the admin first, and then they vet it before passing it along to law enforcement.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Now, I think that this is probably a good policy. It sucks because it's like, Ellen should be the admin for wherever she is.

[Patrick Hines]

She's, like, not into the gatekeeping, and, like, she's like, well, I did all the work, so why is this admin, who doesn't know the case the way I do, making a decision for me? She lives and breathes these cases because.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Ellen is the rare unicorn where I feel like the admins are probably dealing with, like, 20 a day of somebody who looked at it for five minutes. Like, it's probably this guy.

[Patrick Hines]

Right? And so I understand what Ellen's saying to be like, right. But this is like, this has been my life. Ask Chip.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, seriously.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Right? And so Todd from the DOE Network is. And there's hundreds, maybe thousands of cyber sleuths out there that have theories, and that can become deafening, that can actually become overwhelming for law enforcement. And Ellen was not 100% happy with this because she felt like she should have more direct contact with law enforcement. So you need to have these. Like, I understand vetting.

[Patrick Hines]

No, I do.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

And I also understand the frustration, especially when you've put in, like, the 90 hours of your spare free time.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. To just hear, like, we'll get back to you. She's like, what?

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yeah, yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Travel down the road. Back again, girl.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Helix is back. Can I tell you, we had guests stay with us last weekend, and all they did was rave and rave and rave about how much sleep they got and how much they loved sleeping in our bed. And I got to say, it's our Helix mattress. They've been with us for forever now.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. I love the Helix mattress because I used to be a very bad sleeper.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Through no fault of my own, of course. Turns out I was blaming myself. It was the mattress.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So now that we have our Helix Midnight Lux.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

It works for me. It works for Mike. It works for Fiona, the pup. She loves it. And it's like, at first, you're like, well, there's no way all of us are going to be happy with one mattress. Wrong.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

No, because what the Helix does is they. They you have that two minute sleep quiz where you, like, put in your preferences and what you like and how you sleep in your partner, and even you can do it for your dog. And then they tell you the exact right mattress for you. They send it right to your door. It could not be any easier or more convenient.

[Patrick Hines]

It's true. And the thing is, when you have a. A bad night's sleep, you're going to probably have a bad next day. It's kind of a day ruiner.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

100%. It was so affirming to have our guests. Like, the first thing they said was what a comfortable night sleep they had.

[Patrick Hines]

It's true.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

And they said that they always wake up in the middle of the night, but they did not in our bed.

[Patrick Hines]

There you go.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

I know, right?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And getting a good mattress can really help. Like, everyone has their own specific sleep issues. So it can help with, like, snoring, back pain, sleep apnea, or just sleeping through the night or sleeping too hot. Like, getting your mattress is going to.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Change your life 100%. So, fam, get in on the Helix Mattress. Go to helixsleep.com TCO for 27% off site wide.

[Patrick Hines]

That's helixsleep.com TCO For 27% off site wide.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Do it.

[Patrick Hines]

Helixsleep.com TCO so back to Shannon and her dad, Greg. We see where this is going, right, everybody? So Shannon is now living in California with her mother, and Greg would visit every Christmas and everyone was still friends and happy and talked all the time.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

It's Christmas two, and he was like, not gonna come out for the holidays this year because they were so close to moving to Florida. Like, they were moving right then. So he was like, let, let me go to Florida, get settled, and then I can come out and like, stay longer.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And then, like, he and Jan would come visit. Like that was the plan. Everyone was in on the plan.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

So it's January 11, 2001. Jan was away for the holidays, but she comes back to Bellevue and she goes to Greg's house. Oh, my God. This, like, made me so sad.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

That's crazy.

[Patrick Hines]

She shows up to Greg's house and the door is locked. Jan says she sees Greg in the chair in the living room, but he's like, not. He's ignoring her completely answering the door, like, I don't.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Maybe he was asleep or something.

[Patrick Hines]

It was not. It was not Greg.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Oh, right, right. So because it's 2001 she doesn't have a cell phone. She goes down to the local bar and she calls and gets the answering machine. She goes back up to the house. She's banging on the door again. He doesn't answer. And, like, she says, it was freezing out. It was 20 below zero. She like, I'm. She's like, I'm going to go home. We'll figure this out tomorrow. But she says she was hurt.

[Patrick Hines]

She goes, I was really hurt. I don't know why he would do that.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yeah, like, why he would just ignore me.

[Patrick Hines]

And it's like he go. Like, they had all these plans. And then he ghosts her in this really crue. Like, my heart just broke for Jan in that moment because it's so confusing, and it's so, like, wait, you just feel crazy. But then, like, eventually the sadness has to come in too. So, like, you have this moment. It's just hard.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

But then on January 14th. So three days later, Shannon calls her dad, and some weird woman answers. And at first, yeah, Shannon thinks she's called the wrong number. She's like, who is this?

[Ellen Lynch]

Yeah, she said, this is Julie. And I said, this is Greg's daughter, Shannon. Is he there? And she's said, no. Oh, this is Julie, Moose's girlfriend. I said, well, he's called me a couple times. I don't want him to think I'm not calling him back. Will you please let him know I called? She said, well, he's gone to Chicago for the day. Yeah, yeah, I'll let him know he's.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Gone to Chicago for the day, but I'll tell him.

[Patrick Hines]

Chicago, Chicago. Where did we just hear Chicago? Oh, with Ellen and the DO Network. So three days go by, no one hears from Greg. Shannon calls her brother, and she's like, something's wrong. Like, I know something's wrong. Because everyone says, like, Greg was organized, that he also was, like, in touch with everyone. Jan, he had a girlfriend. Like, it's. This is all very, very weird.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

So the brother calls the dad's house, and the phone has been turned off.

[Patrick Hines]

Lots of alarm bells now.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

I mean, that is absolutely terrifying, right? Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So they get in touch with Gary, who's a friend, and they're like, gary, look, we're here in California. Can you just go by the house and, like, see what the hell is going on? We need, like, boots on the ground there in Bellevue.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Gary goes. He calls him back. They're like. He's like, girl, the house is empty. Greg's car is gone. And at this point, the brother. Shannon's brother calls the cops, right?

[Patrick Hines]

And Shannon and her brother go down to Bellevue themselves. This is too scary. This is too big.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

And Detective Dennis goes and does a welfare check. A neighbor eventually comes forward saying that, like, this neighbor saw Moose and the girlfriend moving things out of the house that looked like antiques. Remember Greg had that, like, $250,000 value of, like, the Civil War antiques, probably, hopefully on the good side of history, right? And Moose and the girlfriend are loading this into a cargo van. And the neighbor thought this was suspicious. So they go to the cops.

[Patrick Hines]

And like, now the question is like, would Moose hurt Greg? Greg was letting him sleep in his basement and teaching him how to tattoo. There's no movement on any bank statements. No sign of Greg anywhere. The antiques are gone. He totally ghosted Jan. He's ignoring his kids.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Like, what's like, he. Moose wouldn't hurt my dad. Like, they were good friends.

[Patrick Hines]

So the cops call in the dci, the Division for Criminal Investigation, because as Dennis says, our little five person police force can't handle this. This is too big.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Good thinking, Dennis. Well done, girl.

[Patrick Hines]

And Shannon's like, okay, who's listening to me? Because I have tons of stuff to tell you about Moose. Like, yeah, she tells them everything. She knows everything about Moose. This girlfriend, she didn't know, and her answering the phone and Jan and the plans to go to Florida, like, absolutely everything just to get to the bottom of this. And Shannon, she explains what it's like to be in her position so well, because she's like, I don't want to leave. Like, my life is in California, but I don't want to leave. She goes, you want to feel like you're doing something.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

We've seen this a bunch of times. Like, I remember, like, that one minute where I lost Daisy on the beach in Hawaii when we're on vacation. And I was like, I live here now.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Like, if I don't find her today, I'm buying that house right there.

[Patrick Hines]

And she says, like, she'll go, like, you know, for example, like the cvs, and she'll see someone and she's like, how can they just live their life every day? Like it's normal when it's not normal anymore.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So it's so hard. I'd like to live like that for months until this, like, kind of break in the case comes up.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yeah. Months go by with nothing. And then Shannon says, a friend, after several months, like, called me and said, I got a flyer in the mail for a place called Rock Island Auction House. And he Come across this catalog that.

[Patrick Hines]

Had a bunch of anti that was getting sold in Rock Island, Illinois. And he told Greg's kids that these got to be Greg's stuff. There's no way there's two separate items like this collections that Greg has. Somebody else has the same collection.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Had to have belonged to Greg.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

And so the cops go to the auction house to see how this auction house got these items. And they meet a woman named Mary Clark.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

And she listed the items. Guess who she is.

[Patrick Hines]

She's Moose's girlfriend's mother.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, God.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

You know, you guys are so stupid.

[Patrick Hines]

They're so stupid.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

So stupid.

[Patrick Hines]

So Moose and the girlfriend are now in Arizona. And the cops head there.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And Greg's antiques are all over the place. And they're like, wait, why are you here? Why are the antiques here? How did they get here? What's the plan? And where is Greg? So we meet John Keys, who's the county attorney in Jackson County. And the police chief calls him about the Greg May case.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yeah. And he says, Dennis, the police chief, he's like, he wouldn't call me about nothing. I knew this had to be kind of a big deal.

[Patrick Hines]

So in Arizona, Moose and his girlfriend are arrested for theft.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

I love that we both are calling him by his real name. I know.

[Patrick Hines]

Piece of shit Moose.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

That's like a horrible. That's the kind of nickname I would have had in high school.

[Patrick Hines]

But like, you get one look at this guy and you're like, oh, like a bat.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

And it's like one of the moose.

[Patrick Hines]

Do you crave usually, Right? Not today.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

They're kind.

[Patrick Hines]

Not today they're not.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Although, if I'm like, if Shannon and I are camping and we encounter a moose, I'm going to be scared. I want to make sure they charge.

[Patrick Hines]

They're huge. They have the big antlers. Yeah. I would stay away from them.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

And I would. I'm going to stand behind Shannon. She's going to know. Do what to. To do?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

She's going to put me in a truck.

[Patrick Hines]

If you choose to extend the invitation. Like I said, not a subpoena, just an invite. So these idiots play dumb. And it's like, that seems impossible. You have all this stuff. Julie's mother puts it up for adoption. You can't suddenly act like you don't know who Greg is.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Exactly. And even better, when the authorities searched.

[Ellen Lynch]

The trailer, there was a green jacket that belonged to Moose and there was a spot of blood on there. So they did a reverse DNA search with my brother. And I where they swabbed our chef, and they sort of do the DNA in reverse from the children to the parent to see if it belonged to him.

[Patrick Hines]

And through DNA analysis, the blood was determined to be Gregory Mays.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

The blood is determined to be Greg's. There's Greg's blood on a jacket in their trailer in Arizona.

[Patrick Hines]

And it's the bad guy's jacket. It's Doug's jacket. Right. So they also get DNA from Shannon and her brother to test it to see if it's Greg's DNA. And, like, yes, it does.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

And we get another monologue from Shannon about, like, what. How awful it is to have been living on hold. Like, when a person is missing, we hear this all the time. Time. You at least have to hope that they're out there somewhere. Maybe there's a possibility they'll be found. But, like, when you get this call about the blood on the jacket, Shannon's like, the hope was gone. Like, that's it. We know he's dead.

[Patrick Hines]

Because she says, when. When someone you love has been missing for a long time, you live on hope and fear.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes, Shannon.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

You know, and I don't know. I can only speak for myself. I don't think I could live like that forever. Like, I. I would. I would need to know one way or the other.

[Patrick Hines]

Of course.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my God. So we know they killed Greg, right? Like, we can't prove it in a court of law just yet, but we know they killed Greg. But it's like, well, how and when and why and is Craig.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

And like, DA John is like, we knew they killed this guy, but, like, there are. He literally says, and I quote, there are so many places to hide a body. Like, what he's saying is that from his perspective, it's really, really hard and unlikely to prosecute anybody for murder if you don't have a body. We got to get. Like, he is right. There are too many places to hide a body for that to be the policy.

[Patrick Hines]

It's true.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

You know?

[Patrick Hines]

So, speaking of, though, back with Ellen and the Doe network. Her research is telling her that the skull belongs to this, like, mob guy in Chicago.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yeah. She's not right.

[Patrick Hines]

She's told by the gatekeeper that she's wrong. It's not that it's not a good match.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

And she says, like, this is a big blow. She's been working tirelessly on this. She thought she knew it for sure. In her head, she'd made up a story that it was a mob hit. She knew it. You Know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

And she's disheartened. And at first she's like, well, fuck it. Like, I'm gonna back away from the case. But then she's like, ellen, no.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So she, like, takes a deep breath, and she's like, no, Now I'm really gonna get to the bottom of it. You're telling me that's not the match? I'm gonna find the match.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

But not until after she and Chip go blow off some steam at the local casino. Well, they love it.

[Patrick Hines]

But I love this, though. So they go and they're, like, trying to see. Try to find some joy where. Look, if you know, you know, we're living in this world, like, you find the joy. Yeah, but Ellen says with all the.

[Todd Matthews]

Sadness going on, there's. There's still life out there. There's still happiness out there. Being at the casino reminds me that you never know when your luck is going to come in.

[Patrick Hines]

You never know when your luck is going to come in. Oh, that gave me chills.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

I have only been to casinos twice.

[Patrick Hines]

Okay.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

I have never had a good time. Oh, you like casinos?

[Patrick Hines]

I enjoyed. I know how to do Vegas right. Is the difference? Couple days, two, three days. Go to the great restaurants. Get off the Strip if you can, but. Yeah. And go with a plan.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

They're just. They're smoky. I lost. I didn't spend much money, but, like, I. I don't know how to play. I'm never going to win.

[Patrick Hines]

The first time I. I went. I. Her name was Helen. I. I asked a craps dealer. I was like, I don't know how to play craps can. Like, no one was there. And I just. She was an empty table. And I was like, like, can you just teach. Like, Mike. And I went up, and she was like, can you teach me? And, like, then suddenly. Beginner's lock. Of course, Suddenly there's, like, a table full of men. Like, also, I won a lot of money for a lot of people, and nobody gave me anything.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Are you serious? No one toss you a chip?

[Patrick Hines]

These guys, they gave me. Well, not enough for what I.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

For what you earned.

[Patrick Hines]

For really what I earned. And it was just, like, crazy beginner's luck. But they tell you, you know, like, I wanted to. There are a lot of rules of, like, when you can touch the table or how you can touch the table. So to try to, like. I overcorrected. And I went to, like, put my hands behind my back to be like. I'm not like, no, no, no, no.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

You're A card counter and like.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, it's just the. Okay, so it's like one hand. Hands were like hands where my eyes can see them. But it's what, like if, if you ask, they'll teach you.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yeah, all right, that's good.

[Patrick Hines]

But like last time we were there, we were playing blackjack and the dealer was like, happy. I thought the dealer would be like, not helping or not teaching you anything. And they'd be like, no, this is when you want. It was like a special kind of blackjack. It wasn't right.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Oh, wow.

[Patrick Hines]

So if you ask, like, if you go there, curious and say like, what's the title?

[Jillian Panzavalli]

What do I do? I want Steve. We gotta do. I want Steve and me to do three nights in Vegas. That's what I want.

[Patrick Hines]

If you do it right, if you like, there's like good restaurants and shows and like hotels smell so good and it's really walkable.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

There's lots of fun gays in, in Vegas as well.

[Patrick Hines]

Major go to the Flamingo and see Drag Race.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Oh my God, that's a dream.

[Patrick Hines]

It was so fun.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

All right.

[Patrick Hines]

Amazing queens.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

I'm coming back for you, girl. I'm coming back.

[Patrick Hines]

If you do it right, it'll be great. If you fuck it up, Good luck and don't fuck it up. Good luck. Don't fuck up for real.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

So a few months later, I'm by Tombstone that weekend. Like when I. When they send the body home, it's going to say he fucked it up.

[Patrick Hines]

And let me tell you though, really, it's like, no joke. I'm not being funny. You have to stay hydrated.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Oh yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Cuz you think that, like. Oh, it's a dry heat. Let me tell you, it's really. Be. Be careful and don't go in August, which is the last time we were there.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Okay. Great.

[Patrick Hines]

Travel down the road.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Back again, fam. This episode is brought to you by IQ Bar, our exclusive snack sponsor. IQ Bar is the better for you. Plant protein based snacks made with brain boosting nutrients to refuel, nourish and satisfy hunger without the sugar crash.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, I these things. I am like one of those like really stereotypical commercials where I'm like, I'm kind of feeling sluggish and grumpy. And then I have an IQ bar, like I don't know, the chocolate sea salt or maybe the banana nut or the toasted coconut chip and I just feel like, oh, okay, that, that did it.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian Panzavalli]

Girl, that the mushroom coffee is not messing around. It is so good.

[Patrick Hines]

It is legit. I used to not be a coffee person. Then I'm like, wait and listen, fam.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian Panzavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian Panzavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

Details even.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

But get the mushroom coffee in the bar and the hydration mix.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, delish. Yeah. Have a good day. And you will with IQ Bars.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

She said, have a good day.

[Patrick Hines]

You know, I'm not saying like and good day. I'm saying, like, wow, you'll be like, narcissistic.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Crushed.

[Patrick Hines]

So a few months later, there's an update in the case of the skull in the cement, and they do a facial reconstruction. I have to tell you, it's not even close to the worst one we've seen. No, it's actually very good.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

It actually kind of looks like Greg. It really does.

[Patrick Hines]

It's very well done. And we've seen horrible.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

We've seen really bad. Made out of clay. Like, really bad.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, and these are great.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So meanwhile, the bad guys, this Moose guy and his girlfriend have just been arrested from earlier. Right, you mentioned it. So this goes down exactly how the authorities think it's going to go down. They say that Greg gave them all of the out of the goodness of his heart and that he bailed and he skipped town. And they have no idea where he is. But they do know 100% he's totally alive.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

And you can't prove that he's not because you don't have his body.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. And also. But he totally just ghosted Jan and all of their plans and just handed over the antiques to them to sell them at auction. Like, no, no.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

But they. At first, they can't hold these guys, but then they realize Moose is in violation. That Moose is in violation of his parole for a previous weapons charge in Wisconsin. So he's extradited back. He's in prison. Julie returns to Iowa to be Charged with theft.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

So they do get to hold them while they on the case. Because DA John is like, look, starting a murder case without a body sets you back in two ways. He says, usually you can tell a jury, A, there was a death, and B, the circumstances indicate that it was a murder because we got the body, and here it is.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

But without a body, he's like, here.

[Patrick Hines]

We had to start by convincing the jury that there was a death in the first place without a body, and that the death was wrongful. And then we had to begin with where you normally start training, trying to prove that Douglas de Bruyne was the.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Murderer, and if there was a death, that the death was wrongful. So, like, I, I, I understand what he's saying, but, like, it's like all of the evidence is here. He gave away his $250,000. He goes to his girlfriend. He hasn't talked to his kid.

[Patrick Hines]

It's, like, very clear. But they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, Jillian, I hear you. But, like, in a courtroom, I know they want the conviction, so this absolutely sucks.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

This is horrendous. I don't think I've ever seen anything this extreme.

[Patrick Hines]

But they say that in order to get to the bottom of this, they give Julie the immunity because they, as. I know it sucks. I know it sucks, but they, they are telling us that it's kind of. They think it's the only way to get a conviction and to find the truth about what happened to Greg.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Like, they give her full immunity for murder Ring Greg.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And the ink isn't even dry on the paper. She's like, he did it. Moose did it.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Don't get it.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

So she admits that Moose killed him. She admits, she says it was strangulation. She admitted for being present when it happened and going with him to dispose of the remains. Now, anybody who's listened to more than one episode of this podcast knows when you get an immunity deal, that shit is off the table if you lie.

[Patrick Hines]

Because now this is where we have problem.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Because Julie says the remains were put into the Mississippi River. There's no way that's true because the ice is way too thick. We have the records to prove it. Julie's story that she got in exchange for immunity is impossible.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

It's a lie. And I don't understand. We'll get there at the end, when we get there. But, like, she doesn't get in enough trouble for this lie is all I'm saying. Because in any other case, it's like, you Lose your entire immunity deal.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. And now still they're like, we just want, we want to move forward with the arrest warrant. We want to get to the bottom of this case. So they, they are trying to get the case ready for trial. So to be clear, the DA isn't happy about any of like, they know the case is not a great one. This is all they have. But they're good. They're trying their best for Greg and his family. That's it.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

And Shannon tells us in Iowa, they'd never had a conviction without a body. So if this, if that happens, this would be unprecedented.

[Patrick Hines]

And it's just like, why would the killer do this? Greg did so much for this guy.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Oh, I know.

[Patrick Hines]

Like they were friends. He taught him how to be a tattoo artist. Like, it's not just that he gave him a job. He was like teaching him something. Let him crash in his basement. Like, I just don't understand.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

It's hard. I mean it's, it all just comes down to greed and money and what. And we're back to Ellen and she's saying like looking at, remember there's a reconstruction now. We've got like an actual bust of a head of what they think you look like good.

[Patrick Hines]

And we've seen a lot.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

And I don't know how they. They say all they had was the skull. I don't know how they can tell like what, how chunky the face was based on the skeleton on the skull, but they do. And Ellen says, I was looking at.

[Todd Matthews]

The face and I had seen it before but I couldn't remember where. So I had to go through all the scenes sites again, probably 150 sites to try to find out where I had seen this man before.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

She had seen that face before, but she couldn't remember where.

[Patrick Hines]

She's like, how do I know that face?

[Jillian Panzavalli]

So she's like, she has to start from the beginning. Somebody describes Ellen as a human facial reconstruction software.

[Patrick Hines]

She basically works backwards. She looks at every single website she's ever looked at before. She says like 150 sites. She's chasing this guy's face.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

It's unbelievable.

[Patrick Hines]

It's December 2004. She comes across the Iowa Missing Police Person clearinghouse. She finds the photo she was looking for.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

That person is Greg May.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yeah. She sees the picture and it's kind of crazy when you see the picture. You're like, yes, that does look just like the reconstruction.

[Patrick Hines]

Ellen knows him as John Doe. The John Doe. She's been looking for the skull.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, got Tears in my eyes.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

She's the connector.

[Patrick Hines]

Ellen thinks she's identified Gregory May's remains. And meanwhile, the DA in Iowa is banging his head against the wall trying to get this case.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Now, what we're trying to say here is because somebody's going to say, say later, without a body, it's really hard to prosecute Moose and Julie. And separately, Ellen is trying to identify this body.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

What somebody says later so perfectly, these Internet slews are often working against a clock they don't even know is ticking.

[Patrick Hines]

Because this is happening simultaneously.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

The DA is saying, what the hell? This case sucks. I need something. What can I do? Meanwhile, Ellen is piecing it all together for the to make this case happen, and they.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

They're not connected. And the DA says at some point in the case, Moose and his team asked for an extension, and they're really pissed off about that. But learn now that if this extension hadn't been granted, Ellen and her solving of the Greg body would not have gotten into this case in time to be used in court.

[Patrick Hines]

So. Yeah. Because what happens is Ellen goes to the Iowa gatekeeper.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Who has to, like, approve it.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

So she says, I think I have a match for Gregory May. So. Oh, my God, I have chills. So she goes, I push send. And I waited. Meanwhile, the case is happening. We're in the courtroom, and this is when the killer's lawyer asks for a delay. Because now that Julie flipped on the client, they need more time to work the case.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And this is when the prosecution is pissed and annoyed and confused because they don't know what the hell's going on. But it works in their favor.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Because what did Ellen say before? Everybody being at the casino reminded her that you never know when your luck's going to come in.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

Here we are. Can you stand it? I'm so.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

It's just kind of like, I don't know that we're even making it clear enough that, like, because the case stalled, the gatekeeper in Iowa was able to be like, wait a second. They're prosecuting the Greg May case right now, and we've just found Greg May's body thanks to Ellen.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

And the gatekeepers are able to, like, give this information to the DA and now the DA has got the body, and they can prosecute it and get these fucking people.

[Patrick Hines]

Everyone's luck came in. And that's not to discount all the incredibly hard work that Ellen did. Because she worked incredibly hard.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Totally.

[Patrick Hines]

So it's March 2005, three months after Ellen sends her research showing that this John Doe is most likely Gregory May.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yes.

[Todd Matthews]

Finally, in March 2005, three months after I had made the submission, area director from Iowa got back with me. She told me it was a positive match, and I just kind of melted. That was my first match.

[Patrick Hines]

It's a match.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And this means that Ellen's research can be sent to law enforcement. And it's Ellen's first match. She finally did it.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yeah. Yeah, she did it.

[Patrick Hines]

So this proves that Gregory May was dead and that the death was wrongful. And this is exactly what the prosecutor needs.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

And this is when Todd from the DOE network says so often the cyber sleuths are in a race against time that they don't even know about.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

It's like, oh, my God.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Because if Ellen had like, waited another three months and figured it out later, it would be too late. Because if they had prosecuted the case without a body and Moose and Julie had gotten off, double jeopardy means they can't be retried. Even though now we've got the body.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. And we don't have a motive. We'll never have a motive. We'll never know exactly what happened.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

I mean, they killed him for the. For the antiques.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

You know, like, I know.

[Patrick Hines]

It's so horrifying. So the trial lasted almost exactly two weeks. The killer is found guilty of first degree murder.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

He showed no remorse. This is the guy that. That gave you a place to live, gave you a job, was just trying to fudgeing help you.

[Patrick Hines]

Yep. Let you crash in his basement. I'm sure it wasn't fun for him.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

No.

[Patrick Hines]

That picture of that guy, you could.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Tell, you could smell it. And he's 100%.

[Patrick Hines]

So he sentenced to life without parole for the murder of Gregory May. Julie, the girlfriend, was lying her face off about the remains were. But, like, the remains were.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

It's so crazy to me that, like, she gets five years, the maximum for perjury, but like, she doesn't lose her immunity deal for lying. I don't get it.

[Patrick Hines]

She was released in 2011.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Her mother, by the way, who was like, allowing the antiques to be sold.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Oh, yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Under her name. Authorities never charged her in connection with the theft and murder.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

I know, it's insane.

[Patrick Hines]

So she was removed enough that it was like, oh, my daughter gave me. And like any lawyer would say, like, she didn't know anything. Her daughter gave her the antique.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

And it's possible that that's true. I guess.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. But Shannon, you know, we're back with Shannon and she just says she tries to live the life her father can't live, and she doesn't give her thoughts or time or energy to the killers. Good for you, Shannon. I'm with you on that.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yeah. And, like, we get this round robin of everybody talking about what a hero Ellen is.

[Ellen Lynch]

Here comes along an amateur story. Sleuth on her time off, not getting paid for it, just wanting to help. She pieces together the key that held this case, the key that made this case and got justice for my. My family.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

And DA John writes her a letter, and the letter is, like, so meaningful. Like, these people do this work for free.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

And oftentimes it comes to nothing.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Or there's just brick wall after brick wall. Like, what if at first Ellen was, like, she wanted to disassociate from the case? What if she walked away from it? We wouldn't be here.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

I know, right?

[Patrick Hines]

Like, she was so dishearten. Work weeks and months and all of her free time staying up nights and whatever. And then to just be told, like.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Nope, they should deputize her. Like, people like her should, like, get a job where they can do this work and get paid for it.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And Jan, his girlfriend, says, like, she really misses him. She goes, I was really looking forward to spending the rest of my life with Greg in Florida. And so, like, you know, he. This guy John Key is the prosecutor. When he writes that letter to Ellen, who reads it to us, I, like, I want to personally think, thank you for your efforts to match the remains of Gregory May in the murder investigation of the killer. And he thanks her and, like, all the volunteers out there in the world who are doing this. And, like, the letter really means so much. And she goes, if it ends with, like, everyone should feel, like, motivated and inspired because it says, like, anybody can do this if they put their time, energy, and heart into it. And it's true.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, this is why the show is so good, because you can see, like, what would have happened if you gave up. Like, there's always something else. Like, your luck is always gonna change. Go to the casino. Put it all on blank, and let's go get.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Oh, my God, girl. We did web of death. Body.

[Patrick Hines]

Body of evidence.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Body of evidence.

[Patrick Hines]

Not to be confused with the 1993 Madonna sexy thriller.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Shannon, you can just reach out to me right through the website. We'll figure out a good weekend for everybody for me to come out to.

[Patrick Hines]

Or don't. Shannon, choice is yours, girl. You can just have, like, a nice little, like, nice little you time on a weekend. Just have a little Shannon time.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Or we could go camping.

[Patrick Hines]

Or you can ignore us completely. Or you can continue living your life.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

Shannon, we love you, fam. Join the Facebook group True Crumble Podcast, the Sarasota group. Find us over on the Patreon.

[Patrick Hines]

We love you so much. Stay safe out there and we'll see you very, very soon. I hope you're liking these bonus episodes.

[Jillian Panzavalli]

I know. Me too. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Oh, what did we arm?

[Patrick Hines]

Barely. I had a frog in my throat. It was not.