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Jillian
Okay. This is gonna be a wild ride.
Patrick
Okay.
Jillian
Because I've had more caffeine today than I think I've had in my entire life.
Patrick
You don't like a caffeine person?
Jillian
I'm not. Coffee doesn't really do anything to me for my neurodivergent brain, but espresso sure does. And so Mike made really good iced coffee today. And I was, like, sent into outer space. And then I had a second one.
Patrick
Oh, my God.
Jillian
Even the discord was like, girl, don't do the second one.
Patrick
Oh, my God, Really?
Jillian
And I was like, I did it.
Patrick
You gotta listen to the disc game.
Jillian
And then when I came in, you were like, you haven't blinked in, like hours.
Patrick
You literally were like, I'm so high on coffee.
Jillian
I'm like.
Patrick
And I was like, you haven't blinked in an hour.
Jillian
So good luck to all of us, me included. I'm talking so fast in ads. I'm skipping words. My brain is like, oh, man, she's in for it.
Patrick
Hi, Julia Benzavalli.
Jillian
Hello. Patrick Hines.
Patrick
Please join us in the Facebook group. It is so much fun. The True Crime obsessed podcast discussion group.
Jillian
Yes.
Patrick
We got like 55,000 people in there. Whatever. It's so fun.
Jillian
Whatever.
Patrick
Whatever it is. Come talk about the Epps. Come, like share your dog pictures. You get married. Show us a picture. Yeah, prove it.
Jillian
Prove Pixar didn't happen.
Patrick
And join us over on the Patreon. Tell them about the paid scroll.
Jillian
We have so many episodes on Patreon, so these episodes ad free. Then we do all of those series. Like we're doing lady of the Dunes.
Patrick
Yes.
Jillian
We did the Body in the Snow, the Karen Reid thing. So that's like all our multi part episodes. Also depending on the tier. Well, all tiers have drag bingo.
Patrick
Yes. At the $5, you get drag bingo once a month with schwa.
Jillian
Yeah. Who we love. And then. And us. Is that what you said?
Patrick
Yes, and us.
Jillian
And prizes.
Patrick
And prizes.
Jillian
And then we have, depending on the tier, we like tell you story. We do like an after party or we do like old school Unsolved Mysteries.
Patrick
Yes. We have the hero. They're the ones that like get the stuff in the mail sometime.
Jillian
The calendar.
Patrick
The calendar. And like the pride thing that we always have. But we've been making extra episodes just for them. Like old school on some mysteries episodes. So much fun.
Jillian
Like who's Tyler? If you know, you know. We're doing the Gold leaf lady coming up. If you know the famous gold leaf Lady.
Patrick
I can't wait to find out. Oh, my God, girl. What are we talking about today?
Jillian
Sons of Ecstasy on hbo.
Patrick
Max, do you want to know how I spelled ecstasy?
Jillian
Yeah, sure.
Patrick
Extra T A, C, Y. I mean.
Jillian
I feel like that's a gay club sign.
Patrick
Look, here's the. I'm glad that we're talking about this right at the top. Ecstasy is just for gay people and nobody else is allowed to have it. Nobody else should be allowed to have it because when they do, this shit happens. Yeah, well, it's just for the gays.
Jillian
Okay, sure. For the gays.
Patrick
It's just for the gays.
Jillian
The gays.
Patrick
Facing life in prison, Sammy the Bull.
Mike
Gravano turned on his boss, John Gotti.
Patrick
Am I a rat?
Mike
I took fucking 20 years to help my kids and my family. A few months later, they're gon kill me to send a message to my father.
Patrick
This is Phoenix, Arizona.
Jillian
We were trying to start a new life, but we would definitely fish out of water. There's this whole lifestyle in the middle of the desert, having rave parties, ecstasy, ecstasy.
Mike
I wanted to control the ecstasy scene here in Arizona. I think I got like 30,000 hits of ecstasy. We got rid of them in a week. But then some guys started undercutting us.
Patrick
English Sean English English Sean was the mastermind to our ecstasy empire.
Mike
The name Sammy the Bull Gravano entered my sphere. They became the biggest threat to the organization. I don't give a flying fuck. We'll go to war like that.
Patrick
I just took off running, smoke shooting out the window.
Mike
I was prepared to kill him and bury him in the desert. Everybod knew the consequences of the life. It was me and my family against the world.
Patrick
So we're in Phoenix, Arizona. We meet Salvatore's Sammy the Bull Gravano.
Jillian
All right, Sammy the Bull.
Patrick
Now, I knew nothing about this guy.
Jillian
He killed 19 people that we know of.
Patrick
Oh, my God.
Jillian
He's also known as the most famous rat of all time. Yeah, yeah, but like, don't forget he's a serial killer.
Patrick
He is a fucking serial killer. Kind of a good dad.
Jillian
Are you fucking kidding me? Are you serious?
Patrick
I don' loves his kids.
Jillian
Uh huh.
Patrick
Karen's a piece of work. Wait till we get to her.
Jillian
Like, I can't believe you have, like, no point of reference for Mob Wives. No rip began.
Patrick
Was she on Mob Wives?
Jillian
Was she on Mob Wives? The whole thing was that Karen's coming back to Staten island from Arizona and. And Renee Graziano was like, over my fucking dead body. And everyone was mad because she's a rat.
Patrick
From a rat family.
Jillian
Also she Drita married Lee.
Patrick
Oh, my God.
Jillian
Karen used to date. And then Karen might have cheated on Lee.
Patrick
Why hasn't anybody killed them is my question. If they know where they are, why are they still Al.
Jillian
Who?
Patrick
The women, Any of the children related to this guy who turned on John Gotti. Don't they kill those people?
Jillian
Yeah.
Patrick
You believe over the course of nine years that these people die?
Jillian
They're very into the rules. So the rules are like no civilians.
Patrick
Cosa Nostra.
Jillian
I mean, yeah, our thing. That's what it means, Our thing.
Patrick
Is that what that means?
Jillian
Yeah. Or like this thing of ours, that's what it translates to. But usually the rules are like, you don't touch a civilian. People not in the game. Or women and children. But I guess if your family. I mean, we'll get into it. There was allegedly a hit on his son.
Patrick
Oh, my God. I knew nothing about any of this. We meet Gerard, who's the son of Sammy the Bull. He is saying, this is the story. This documentary is the story that we never allowed our dad to tell.
Jillian
Whatever. It's all such bullshit. It's all like very convenient. Revisionist history, big time.
Patrick
I'm just here as a common spectator. I mean, I know nothing. This would be like us covering a documentary about Lilith Fair and you having opinions.
Jillian
Why?
Patrick
Because I was so, like. I feel like Lilith Fair is to me what the Mafia was to you.
Jillian
But I love all of the artists and the music.
Patrick
All right, bad example. I feel like it'd be like it'd. Us covering.
Jillian
I'll think of party barges. Party barges. That's what it would be, people. Party barges on the hottest day of the year.
Patrick
Party barge memes every day that year. And I love it so much.
Jillian
I love. There's. We're divided.
Patrick
I know. But I did find a party barge paddle boat that I sent to you. That I was like, you and me, five minutes, one glass of wine, we tell people we did it.
Jillian
That is a party barge. How is it not a party barge?
Patrick
You and me on like a paddle boat. Party barge. I want it.
Jillian
Yeah. The two of us with booze. How is that not a party? I defy anyone to be like, that's not a party barge. It most certainly is.
Patrick
If we get into the middle of the Hudson and I gotta. I'll do it.
Jillian
Oh, God, the Hudson. We'll find a better body of water.
Patrick
Okay.
Jillian
So whatever tight knit family, they didn't have any idea about their father, like, sure, Jan. Okay.
Patrick
But I will say that Like Karen the daughter, all she can talk about is how great her dad is and the amount of pride they all have in the fact that their dad was Sammy the Bull, who ratted out John Gotti and killed 19 people. They are proud of it.
Jillian
Oh, beyond. And there is an excuse for everything.
Patrick
Totally.
Jillian
So Karen was like, I didn't know anything about my father being in the lifestyle, but then at my sweet 16, I remember my friend told me, john Gotti's here. It was at that point I realized my father's first family was the Gambino family, but he was a gangster to the core. He's Sammy the Bull. John Gotti shows up to her sweet 16, and then she's like, oh. And I'm like, jan.
Patrick
It'd be like Sarah McLachlan showing up to my sweet 16.
Jillian
But I get it if you're like 4 or 5 years old, but Staten Island, I know two things. Wu Tang Clan and the mob. Paul Castellano, the guy who Sammy the Bull famously killed outside of Sparks, lived in what they called the White House.
Patrick
Oh, my God.
Jillian
On Staten island, like, by the time you're 12, Karen, like, you knew all of your friends were in it.
Patrick
Yes.
Jillian
Or like, their dads were in the business.
Patrick
Do you think it was, like, impressive to her friends that John Gotti showed up at her sweet 16?
Jillian
Yeah, for a time. All the parents, for sure.
Patrick
Oh, really?
Jillian
For sure.
Patrick
Oh, my God.
Jillian
I mean, Sammy the Bull was his right hand man.
Patrick
Yeah. Yeah.
Jillian
Travel down the road.
Patrick
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Jillian
Yeah, they're awesome, like, if you need to unwind, but also if you're just looking for, like, a natural way to relieve aches and discomfort. Yes, because the CBD gummies from Cornbread Hemp are formulated to work with your body, not against it.
Patrick
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Jillian
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Patrick
I cannot tell you how much we love this stuff, fam. So right now, TCO listeners can save 30% on their first order.
Jillian
Just head to cornbread hemp.com/tco and use code tco at checkout.
Patrick
That's cornbread, hemp.com,/tco and use code tCO.
Jillian
That's right.
Patrick
We love you, cornbread.
Jillian
Oh, my God. Delicious. We learned. So John Gotti was the boss of the Gambino crime family. Sammy the Bull was the underboss.
Patrick
We are so in your wheelhouse. I love it. I love it. You don't even need your notes.
Jillian
Barely. Sammy the Bull was the underboss. Like, so John Gotti's right hand man, very, very high up. They're described as, quote, two of the notorious and infamous figures in the history of organized crime in America.
Patrick
I mean, Sammy the bull killed 19.
Jillian
People, at least that we know of, that he was, like, charged with, including Paul Castellano. Again, famously shot in front of Spark Steakhouse.
Patrick
Yeah. When I was a concierge, people used to come in and be like, where's the one where the guy.
Jillian
I mean, it was huge.
Patrick
And it's still there.
Jillian
Cause Paul Castellano, again, lived in the White House in South. It was a major hit for, like, what it meant to the mom as well.
Patrick
Was he sitting at the bar? Is that what it was?
Jillian
He was coming outside.
Patrick
Oh, my God.
Jillian
So literally outside. Sparks.
Patrick
Wow.
Jillian
Yeah.
Patrick
That is absolutely wild.
Jillian
The photos are, like, very ghoulish.
Patrick
And this is the thing where, like, Gerard the son is saying, I never.
Mike
Judged what my father did for one second. Back then, I also believed in Cosa Nostra. If he killed someone, they deserve to die. They did something wrong or broke the rules.
Patrick
They deserve to die because they broke the rules.
Jillian
Yeah. I'm like, that's insane. Your father's a serial killer.
Patrick
Yeah.
Jillian
And now, like, all these mob guys, they have podcasts, they're going on YouTube. It used to be that you don't talk about anything. Like, don't ask me about my business. Now they're all talking about it. There's some video that I found today on YouTube where Sammy the Bull is walking through the assassination of Paul Castellano, happily talking about it like it's nothing.
Patrick
So is the mob not a thing anymore? How is this guy alive?
Jillian
It's a thing in, like, that's what I'm shocked about. Like, Henry Hill, like, from Goodfellas, used to go on the Howard Stern show all the time, but he wears sunglasses, and I'm like, what? You're in witness protection? Like, what is going on?
Patrick
The witness protection. Like, the. My blue heaven of it all.
Jillian
The my blue heaven. Shut up. Might melt all of this stuff.
Patrick
I Saw that in the movie theater. When we get there, I cannot wait. Oh, my God, my blue.
Jillian
I can't believe you just referenced My Blue Heaven.
Patrick
Oh, my God. I thought. But, like, that's. This is literally my blue heaven at one point. I mean, it's insane.
Jillian
Yeah, But Gerard is 15 years old and he's, like, training at a boxing gym, and everyone's like, oh, my God, you're Sammy the Bull's kid. First of all, you guys are all idiots for, like, glorifying a 15 year old.
Patrick
Yes.
Jillian
And he goes, that gave me a sense of power that I could do what I want to. And there's no repercussion. I'm like, girl, the word you're looking for is entitlement.
Patrick
Yes.
Jillian
I felt entitled to do whatever I wanted.
Patrick
Who named the guy Sammy the Bull? Did he give himself the nickname?
Jillian
No. Karen explains it in Mob Wives where he was like. He was, like, getting picked on, or he picked a fight when he was a kid and all the mob guys were like, oh, the kid's like a bull. You look like a little bull. According to Karen.
Patrick
Okay, Karen, I got a lot of questions for Karen.
Jillian
When that moment where they do the reunion and Drita goes, karen, get up. And they just start fighting. I can't handle it. Oh, my God, Drita.
Patrick
Am I gonna go home and binge Mob Wives tonight?
Jillian
Like, Big Ang. I love the wise guys. She had that. Oh, my God. Rip Begin. She ran the Drunken Monkey in Staten Island. Everybody knew Begin. She did.
Patrick
She's a bartender, but she was a mob wife.
Jillian
She dated all the wise guys.
Patrick
Oh, my God.
Jillian
So she didn't. She would get, like, pulled in. She served time because she didn't rat anybody. So when Karen came, Big Edge is like, girl, I could keep your mouth shut, but your fucking father couldn't.
Patrick
I can't believe I survived high school without being called, like, Big Pat.
Jillian
The whole Big Edge boobs out to here.
Patrick
I mean, that was me in high school too.
Jillian
Oh, my God, the wise guys.
Patrick
Oh, my God, Big Pat. Don't start it, Sam. I cannot do it.
Jillian
Well, you said it. This is why you can't say it.
Patrick
My next live show, I'm gonna get five T shirts that say Big Pat. I just know it.
Jillian
Yeah, that's medium.
Patrick
They should be size medium. Thank you so much.
Jillian
Yes, thank you so much. Doesn't matter what size they are.
Patrick
No.
Jillian
So 1991 SA, the bull was facing life in prison, and he did the one thing you're never supposed to do above everything else.
Patrick
But like, this transcends the Mafia. The one thing you are never, ever any of us are supposed to do is rat out John Gotti or.
Jillian
Yes. You know, specifically John Gotti.
Patrick
Yeah.
Jillian
Like, you don't cooperate. You don't talk to the cops. You don't flip. Sammy the Bull flipped.
Patrick
Yeah. Sammy the Bull's testimony was crucial in convicting the infamous mob boss John Gotti. But it has also made him a.
Mike
Prime target for the criminal underworld. This development is likely to have significant and potentially dangerous repercussions.
Jillian
He's the reason that they were finally, finally, finally able to convict John Gotti. Because, remember, we've covered this before. Like, the feds tried to get him several times. Nothing stuck. Hence the name Teflon Don.
Patrick
Yes.
Jillian
So they needed someone to flip, and Sammy the Bull was that guy.
Patrick
Yeah. And they. They got on a flip just by being like, it's him or you. Like, we're gonna get you on, like, all this.
Jillian
Catch.
Patrick
Yeah.
Jillian
The way Sammy the Bull tells it is, like, a very convenient story later. One of many convenient stories we hear from this guy. But, like, on the flip side of that, Sammy the Bul. Cause he did the one thing you're not supposed to do.
Patrick
Such a ridiculous. Sammy the Bull. It's at once perfect and wonderful and ridiculous.
Jillian
It's stupid.
Patrick
Yeah. Okay, great. I was wondering if we were, like, allowed to say mean things about these people, or are we gonna get killed?
Jillian
Also, Drita. Like, hi.
Patrick
Who's she?
Jillian
Drita's the one who was so mad at Karen. Like, the Drita Karen rivalry. The first, like, three episodes of Mob Wives are like, are we gonna welcome Karen back? Which is so reality. Cause it's like, she fucking signed the contract to be on the show, obviously, but it's all like, karen'.
Patrick
Is that big Ang.
Jillian
That's Drina.
Patrick
Okay.
Jillian
And then it would be Carla being like, should I invite Karen to my party? They're always having parties. Like, Renee didn't come to my party.
Patrick
Are these wallpaper in the downstairs bath women or they're a different kind?
Jillian
They are a little bit. But, like, they will kill you. Like, Trita. Like, Trita prides herself on being a fighter. Her face changes. She's one of those people where, like, when she's about to, like, lunge at you and beat you up, like, her face changes and you see it in real time.
Patrick
I. I would be. He's so scared. There's not a gay in sight, is there?
Jillian
Uh, no.
Patrick
No, there's not a gay in sight. I don't Know how the show could go on?
Jillian
Big Ange I think is, like, surround. But they're not on the show.
Patrick
Yeah. Oh, my God. I don't want to be lunged out by Drita. Her name is Drita.
Jillian
Drita d'. Avanzo.
Patrick
You know what she would like?
Jillian
She married Lee the bank robber.
Patrick
She'd like a party barge.
Jillian
I don't know.
Patrick
Okay.
Jillian
They like parties where they go and there's like, they're always on a rooftop somewhere.
Patrick
Oh, my God.
Jillian
Or they're, like, renting out some, like, part, like hall.
Patrick
Oh, my God. Welcome to our 15 hour episode.
Jillian
I think Drita's gonna be on some new reality, but I can't remember it now.
Patrick
Oh, God.
Jillian
Anyway, this is the best.
Patrick
So. So Sam in the Bull. Despite having killed 19. Admitting. Admitting to killing 19 people, he spent only five years in prison. And then he's released into the witness protect. I can't get over it because he fled.
Jillian
He got, like, the bigger fish.
Patrick
But like, him and the witness protection, that was what I immediately thought of Steve Martin in my blue house.
Jillian
Like, he stands out.
Patrick
Like, where are you going to put this guy? He's not going to be working at a Cinnabon.
Jillian
Right.
Patrick
You know what I mean?
Jillian
I mean, he wishes he had the style that. That Steve Barton had.
Patrick
Totally.
Jillian
Did you hear Rick Moranis is, like, coming back to acting?
Patrick
No.
Jillian
I forget why.
Patrick
That's good news.
Jillian
The caffeine has fried my brain. I don't know how you people do this. I can't remember the show that dream is on. I can't remember anything else about Rick Moranis. Like, what am I doing here? I don't regret it for a second.
Patrick
No, no, no, no. Yeah. You're fully addicted to caffeine now.
Jillian
I mean, but like, those specific iced coffee things that Mike makes.
Patrick
Yeah.
Jillian
So good.
Patrick
I'll take a thermos next time, Mike. Thank you so much.
Jillian
But seriously, you know why? Because the ice cubes are also made of coffee.
Patrick
What?
Jillian
He's a master.
Patrick
Oh, my God, he's a master all right.
Jillian
The espresso martini's top tier.
Patrick
Anyway, so he gets sentenced to the witness protection.
Mike
They told my father he had to do two years in the witness protection program in Colorado, and then he was done. We never. He went to Colorado. When he was there, we weren't allowed to, but me, my mother, and my sister never went in the witness protection program. We had nothing to do with it. And we all stayed in New York.
Patrick
The family never goes to visit. Okay. It was definitely a different time. Right. Like this was before tmz, before cell phones. I would think that everybody would know what the guy who got John Gotti locked up and killed that guy in front of Sparks looks like.
Jillian
Yeah.
Patrick
How you putting Gwyneth Paltrow in the witness protection program? You know what I mean?
Jillian
What year do you think it is? 1997. With that pink dress she wore. Like, but isn't it.
Patrick
Isn't it like in the 90s? Aren't we in the 90s now?
Jillian
Oh, yeah, I guess we are.
Patrick
You know what I'm saying? I'm just saying that, like, you would think that people would know. How are you putting them in the witness program?
Jillian
Well, yeah, I mean, I think in that level of the mob, like, everyone. I think a lot of people could be bought in the feds at that time. Like, I think it was. That's the thing. Like, that's why he had a target on his back. He had to go somewhere random. His family, because that happens all the time. Like they even say in Goodfellas to Lorraine Bronco, they're just like. So she's like, well, my mom's birthday's coming up or whatever. And they're like, no, no, no, you don't understand. You're never speaking to your mother again.
Patrick
Never again.
Jillian
I don't know if I can do this.
Patrick
Right. Exactly. So he gets sent to Colorado. The family never goes to visit him over the two years that he's there.
Jillian
And Gerard, the 17 year old, is like, I had to step up and be the man of the family.
Patrick
No, Gerard, shut up. No, shut up. But at the same time, would be terrified because wouldn't the mob just come and kill his family to, like, make him sad?
Jillian
Well, a few months into being in WhatsApp, the FBI comes calling and they're like, oh, they have a hit out on your kid.
Patrick
Yeah. I mean, obviously, how are you letting your kids stay in Staten Island?
Jillian
So the plan is like, we're going to kill your 17 year old son to send a message to Sammy the Bull, get him to leave witness protection, come back to Staten island, and then they'll kill him there, of course. So the wife and kids leave Staten island.
Mike
So we decided to move to Phoenix to be closer to where my father was in Witness. Before we left, we dug up my father's money. I put it in the back of my truck, and I was driving across country with 3 million cash.
Patrick
They dig up his 3 mil, put it in the back of the pickup truck and drive to Arizona.
Jillian
There's a really Great scene in Big Love. Where Mary Kay Place. Oh, my God, it's in the desert. I know. She is like, she steals every scene she's in in that show.
Patrick
Remember when we did our.
Jillian
Did you have caffeine today?
Patrick
I didn't, but I. All I can think of is, look who's Talking. We did not make a Look who's Talking podcast. We made My so Called Life podcast and she was on My so Called Life.
Jillian
She was Sharon's mom again, stealing every scene she's on.
Patrick
She. Mary Gay Place is the. And the fact that she's not like an actual national treasure, it makes this. I know. Not. Not. She seems to me not.
Jillian
Not in this party bar. She is, like, trying to find all the money she dug up, all the cash that she dug up in the desert. And she. And. And Chloe Savin is like, mom, where is it? And she's like, we. I don't know. There's more money buried in another desert.
Patrick
Well, that is the thing. Like, if you're gonna bury the money, you gotta draw a really good map.
Jillian
Yeah.
Patrick
You know what I mean? You can't. Like, you gotta know where it is.
Jillian
I know.
Patrick
Put it by a tree.
Jillian
So they dig up $3 million in cash, throw it in the trunk and off the road and they drive.
Patrick
So Karen tells us that her dad only did three months in witness protection. Oh, is it seven? Okay. The dad only does three months. Three months.
Jillian
Seven.
Patrick
I guess. I did have caffeine today. Oh, you know what I did? I had a Celsius before we started.
Jillian
What is a Celsius?
Patrick
It's a lot of caffeine.
Jillian
Oh, God, I'm starting to feel it. My heart. The last time I had a sip of it was like, noon. I'm never sleeping again. I'm just. I live here now.
Patrick
And that Celsius is kicking in because I'm starting to sweat.
Jillian
I'm like. I feel like my apple watch is going to be like, girl, you okay? Because they tell you when your heart rate is up. I have had so many times where it's like your heart rate is up and you're sitting.
Patrick
I know what's going on. We haven't had a drink on this podcast in five years.
Jillian
Oh, years.
Patrick
And this is the drunkest we've been in a long time.
Jillian
I'm like, are you here?
Patrick
I know.
Jillian
Am I here? Here. Travel down, girl.
Patrick
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Jillian
Yeah, that's the thing. Because typical children's vitamins are basically candy in disguise, like the ones that we used to eat when we were kids. We just have to be honest about it.
Patrick
Yeah, for sure.
Jillian
They have like two teaspoons of sugar, all these unhealthy chemicals, and all these like gummy additives that we just should not be eating. Especially if you're a growing child.
Patrick
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Jillian
Yeah, well, those days are over.
Patrick
They're over.
Jillian
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Patrick
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Jillian
To claim this deal you must go to hiahealth.com tco this deal is not.
Patrick
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Jillian
Yeah, and then you can teach them other life lessons when you talk to them about the Lion King and hold their hand when you tell them 100%. It's a roller coaster and a half.
Patrick
Karen says that the dad only did seven months in witness protection and I wrote it down as witness protections as though you would say like Barnes and Nobles or Stoli's vodka.
Jillian
Oh, no, no, no. He went straight to Phoenix to be with his family because his family isn't in witsec. They just like went to Phoenix and so he's ditching WITSEC to be with his family.
Patrick
But we also learned that he doesn't. We learn this eventually he's not living with his family because he doesn't want to like, put them in danger. But also the wife threw him out. And no one's saying that.
Jillian
No one's talking about that.
Patrick
Like, no one's saying that she fucking left your ass. It wasn't your choice.
Jillian
We're going to Phoenix for us not to be closer to you.
Patrick
Remember when the shit that you did got a hit put on our son? You can't live with us.
Jillian
Take a hint, Sammy, right? So here comes Sammy, the bullet justify the murders.
Patrick
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mike
To me, the mafia was no different than being a soldier, the army. I never killed a woman, a child, or people out of the life. It was always people who broke the rules of Gosa Nostra. You knew what it was, but everybody knew the life and they knew the. The consequences of the life.
Jillian
He's like quoting the Godfather, like, it's the business we've chosen. Everyone knows the rules, blah, blah, blah.
Patrick
I don't think that everybody that you think is in the life thinks that they're in the life. Do you know what I'm saying?
Jillian
Yes.
Patrick
I don't know exactly how the mafia works, but I bet there are some people that are like, I just was at the fucking roulette table with that guy. I didn't do it on purpose. I didn't do it.
Jillian
Or they like force you to be in the life. So like, you have this new little business and they're like, hey, if you want our protection, right, you gotta pay us. Because it's like a nice story you got here. It'd be a real shame if someone burned it down.
Patrick
A nice little podcast you got here. Wouldn't it be terrible if your 11 year old daughter went missing tomorrow?
Jillian
That's exactly right.
Patrick
Yeah.
Jillian
But to that point, Sami is almost expecting to be murdered. Yeah, because like, this is the life he chose. He broke the number one rule. There's an excellent chance he's going to be killed for it. And he seems okay about it.
Patrick
Why wasn't he killed? Killed?
Jillian
What about this is enticing to anybody? Yeah, none of it is fun.
Patrick
But like, did they really? Were they unable to find him? Is that really what it came down to?
Jillian
I don't understand how he's still alive, to be honest with you. I don't know what happened. But he also, like, wasn't ever really in witsec. Like, he never changed his name. He's like, my father gave me that name. I'm like, every man is exhausting. Like, they are all so exhausting.
Patrick
I know. I know.
Jillian
So now, like. Like you're saying he never lived with his family, and he was always expecting to be murdered, and now that he moved to Arizona to be with his family, now his whole family is at risk. I'm like, what kind of life is this?
Patrick
It's a no.
Jillian
Is anything worth this? The answer is no.
Patrick
And then we're. Now we're in Gerard's kitchen with Karen and Sammy the Bull. I love that the wife is not here. Is she dead?
Jillian
I don't know. I don't think so. I think she's just smartly erased herself from this narrative.
Patrick
The wife is nowhere to be seen. It's Sammy the Bull, Gerard and Karen sitting around Gerard's kitchen while he's, like, making omelets for them. But I wrote this down because he.
Mike
Said, actually, when I first came to Arizona, I got concealed weapon permits. I bought two, three guns because I was the man of the house for.
Patrick
A long time on two tree guns.
Jillian
Two tree.
Patrick
I was like, oh, yeah, he got two tree guns.
Jillian
Like, how dare you?
Patrick
I know.
Jillian
And Sammy's now claiming he wanted to go legit. He has many legit businesses, like a pool company and an excavation company and a construction company and all that stuff.
Patrick
Like, fronts for maf. Like, all of them would you own. You have a garbage can.
Jillian
Stereotype after stereotype after stereotype.
Patrick
Exactly.
Jillian
Like Uncle Sal's Italian restaurant.
Patrick
Yes.
Jillian
So Gerard is, of course, working at the restaurant. He's also allegedly in culinary school. And his friend walks in with a charming guy, cool, named Mike Papa. He's from Long Island. He's Italian. Gerard's like, finally a piece of home.
Patrick
I mean, I can kind of understand the nostalgia factor here. Right?
Jillian
Fine. But, like, they're trying to act like Mike Papa just material. This was all part. This is part of the revisionist history, because the story we hear is like, Mike Pappa walks in, slams $1,000 in cash on the table. It's a gift. Well, in return, all I want you to do is come out with me and socialize. And Gerard's like, cool, free money. And I'm like, sammy the Bull's kid should know that nothing is free, no, let alone a thousand bucks from a quote, stranger.
Patrick
I was like, to me, sorry, if you give $1,000 to some stranger and you call it a gift, I think that there's gonna be an exchange of services demanding.
Jillian
No. His friend was like, I know a guy who's in the drug scene here. I'm bringing him to your restaurant. Like, this was all a business. Like, you can't brag about how you're Sammy the Bull's kids and then also play dumb about all of this.
Patrick
100%.
Jillian
Don't insult me.
Patrick
I couldn't agree more. So they go out the next night. They go to some club. They're treated like VIPs. The bouncer gives them the best table, bringing them drinks. Now, careful. This idiot. She goes, who doesn't want to go out and pop bottles?
Jillian
We came from a lifestyle like that in New York. Anything we wanted, we got. It's like that life that was ripped away from us just started coming back.
Patrick
The life that got ripped away from us started coming back. Your dad killed 19 people, so you can have that life, girl.
Jillian
He's a serial killer.
Patrick
Serial killer. She's, like, mourning the life that quote, got ripped away from. This is not Schitt's Creek, girl.
Jillian
No, no.
Patrick
You know what I mean.
Jillian
The mental gymnastics that these people do to justify and exc. And romanticize is frankly disgusting.
Patrick
Disgusting. So Gerardo, Mike Papa become best friends.
Jillian
Yeah. They're like, oh, my God. We didn't know this, but Mike Papa was a drug dealer. Girl. The whole thing.
Patrick
You knew who he was, right? Come on. Totally.
Jillian
So he says, he approaches Gerard and he's like, we can make 200 to $250 per ecstasy pill. And he claims that he's selling 30,000 pills a week. That's $6 million.
Patrick
I have 7.5. Maybe my math is fuzzy, but, like, that's, well, 30,000. I have 250.
Jillian
But I did the lower things. They said 2 to 2 50. So to be conservative, right.
Patrick
Somewhere between six and seven and a half million dollars.
Jillian
Which is. But, like, this is a hypothetical.
Patrick
Right.
Jillian
That Mike Poppa is saying it's not actually happening. Because Mike Poppa says to Gerard, here's where you come in. You're gonna find a supplier that fits our budget.
Patrick
Yeah.
Jillian
And then we can make this number happen. So this number isn't happening. Mike Poppa's trying to sell him on this.
Patrick
Yeah, I was.
Jillian
It's a ridiculous scheme.
Patrick
Well, Gerard is thrilled because we learned he's $30,000 in credit card debt. He's like, 19. I was like, girl, what are you doing?
Jillian
So let's become a drug dealer.
Patrick
He's like, I needed, like that. I needed the quick, hot cash or whatever.
Jillian
Okay, why don't you, like, I don't know, take over one of your four dad's, quote, legitimate businesses?
Patrick
Do the pool one.
Jillian
That's like, Thriving. Allegedly. Nothing says my business is thriving. Like having five businesses.
Patrick
Right? Like, totally.
Jillian
Really?
Patrick
Okay, girl.
Jillian
Sure. Okay. So then Karen finds out and ruins everything.
Patrick
Yeah.
Jillian
Because the supplier's in New York and she doesn't want her brother going back to New York because there's a hit out on him.
Patrick
Right.
Jillian
So Karen finds, like, the one smart thing.
Patrick
Karen says that's actually a good call.
Jillian
Yeah. She rats out her brother. Like father, like daughter.
Patrick
I know.
Jillian
Karen tells her father about this whole thing and Sammy the Bull is pissed.
Patrick
Yeah.
Jillian
Allegedly.
Patrick
Yeah. And it's like, you know, Gerard tells the story that he's like, sitting on his couch watching TV by himself. His dad breaks the fucking door down, grabs him by his neck, tackles me.
Mike
And he's like, what the fuck are you doing? What are you thinking? You want to go to New York? You want to fucking sell drugs? He felt like I was going behind his back doing something that could affect him and the entire family. And he shook me and he said, you want to die? I'll kill you. If you want to die, I'm not going to let anyone else kill my son.
Jillian
If you want a death wish, I will kill you myself.
Patrick
He literally says, he goes, I'm not going to let anybody else kill my son. I'll do it.
Jillian
And Gerard's like, I'm only stuck in Phoenix because of your choices, and now I have to make my own choices. They get in a huge dick swinging match.
Patrick
Oh, my God.
Jillian
Screaming at each about choices or whatever.
Patrick
Yeah, yeah, Like, God.
Jillian
So Gerard heads to New York.
Patrick
What'd you say last week? Is there an I get it button, please?
Jillian
I know that's my friend Ted's. I stole that from Ted. Gerard heads to New York. He really has his heart set on being a drug dealer and. But we have to, like, get fed the story that Sammy the Bull was like, no.
Patrick
Yes.
Jillian
Okay.
Patrick
Oh, I fell for it. Hook, line and sinker.
Jillian
Okay.
Patrick
That's why I was like, oh, he's kind of a good.
Jillian
And if it happened, it was probably for some other reason. Like, Sammy the Bull was probably mad about, like, six years.
Patrick
Well, we're going to learn later that Sammy the Bull doesn't think that his kid is man enough to be in the mafia. I think that's probably down to. It's not that he gives a shit that he's, like, doing something shitty and might have to kill people. He's like, I just don't think you are man enough to do it right.
Jillian
So whatever. He gets the pills, he brings them back to Arizona. And he allegedly makes $90,000 in a.
Patrick
Week, which is not the 7.5 million he was promised.
Jillian
Right. And I'm like, mike, Papa's math isn't mathing.
Patrick
Right.
Jillian
Because 200 bucks per pill would be $6 million.
Patrick
I mean, exactly.
Jillian
So it doesn't matter. Gerard is thrilled. I was born for this shit. AKA selling ecstasy. He immediately wants to be the ecstasy king of Arizona. And I immediately thought of the sausage king of Chicago. Dave.
Patrick
Of course, Ferris Bueller. Call me sir. God damn it.
Jillian
God damn it. Rooney. Oh, my God, So good. But that's not gonna be easy because English Sean runs the show in Arizona.
Patrick
Oh, God.
Jillian
There's a big rave scene in Arizona.
Patrick
No, this sounds kind of fun. And this is how you can tell that ecstasy is for the gays.
Jillian
There's this whole underbelly, this whole lifestyle of people that once the club's closed.
Patrick
They'Re in the middle of the desert having rave parties.
Mike
And the person who threw these graves was a guy named English Sean.
Patrick
They would all just go out to the desert with their glow sticks and dance around for the rest of the.
Jillian
Night for, like weeks at a time.
Patrick
Gay days.
Jillian
Yeah, gay.
Patrick
Gay.
Jillian
Shirtless, not a shirt.
Patrick
Show me one straight guy doing that.
Jillian
It's like no shirts and just bikini tops or bikini bottoms.
Patrick
All still worn by gay men. Yeah, but like, so, yeah, like, English Sean is the guy. He controlled the ecstasy trade in Arizona.
Jillian
Yeah. He's got a lot of mantras. Mantras, however you say it, greed is good. Fuck or be fucked. Make the most money by whatever means.
Patrick
Like English Sean is here. I was kind of surprised to see him again. How are you sitting down for the documentary? How are you either not dead or in prison.
Jillian
And again, all these unreliable narrators telling, throwing out numbers.
Patrick
Totally.
Jillian
That are ridiculous. And even when he says he had 200 people working for him over the years, the profits were $5 million. I'm like. Still doesn't seem worth it to me. Even with your exaggerated numbers. No way you could convince me to do this ever.
Patrick
No, because it's like the reason most people don't do bad things is a. Because you have a moral compass, but also because you don't wanna look over your shoulder, day, every day, wondering when the cops are gonna come and get you.
Jillian
Exhausting. Or like your best friend killing you.
Patrick
Oh, my God. Yeah.
Jillian
Travel down, girl.
Patrick
Hydro is back. Now, look. Hydro is that like full body rowing machine experience? Can I tell you my favorite thing about having the hydro?
Jillian
Absolutely.
Patrick
The fact that you never have to Leave home to get your workout done. Because I always say the hardest part of working out is making, making yourself get to the gym. Imagine if the workout machine was right there in your house. You would do it every day.
Jillian
Yeah. There's no commute. You don't have to worry about class times or juggling logistics. You're doing it on your schedule.
Patrick
Yes. And so listen, hydro is a game changer because it gives a full body workout. We're talking arms, legs, core, everything. I'm hitting 86% of my muscles in one session and I can do it in just 20 minutes.
Jillian
Yeah. Not like an hour long class, 45 minutes away. You're doing it in your home in.
Patrick
20 minutes and you can do as much as you want. I've done 6000 meter rows which take me like 40min. I've done 10 minute like fast rows. You can totally do it on your schedule. And I really have noticed. I work out so much more often having my hydro in my house than when I had to walk to the gym.
Jillian
Yeah. And it's low impact but so it's like great for your knees and joints and everything but at the same time it gives you a great mix of strength and cardio.
Patrick
Yeah. And also the rows are led by these Olympic champions and they've filmed these rows like all over the world. So you can do like a scenic row on the Charles river in Boston. That's where I do it. You can do it in rivers all over, over Europe. It's like scenic and fun and they.
Jillian
Offer free shipping, a 30 day risk free trial and a one year warranty. So you're not going to feel locked in?
Patrick
No. So fam, skip the gym, not the workout. Stay on track with hydro for a limited time.
Jillian
Go to hydro.com and use code TCO to save up to 450 bucks off your hydro. Pro rower.
Patrick
That's H Y d r o w.com code tco to save up to 450 bucks.
Jillian
Hydro.com code tco.
Patrick
Have your gym in your house and you'll go to the gym.
Jillian
Come on, you're like a professional rower now. Loving it. Cute. So the Ice House. Not to be confused with the Ice Palace.
Patrick
Listen. But gay.
Jillian
But gay.
Patrick
You know what I mean.
Jillian
Cuz it's the epicenter of the rave scene.
Patrick
Yes. So see, you can't even do it without saying it in a gay voice. Let's do it again.
Jillian
The epicenter of the rave scene. English Sean's biggest market.
Patrick
So Schoolie, oh my God.
Jillian
Is his master salesman. Don't worry, everyone. Schooly's here.
Patrick
School is here. It's one idiot after another. Wait till you meet what's her name. Wig Woman, Wave Woman, Wild Woman.
Jillian
Also, Skooly D is a rapper that did the theme to Aqua Teen Hunger Force.
Mike
Number one in the hood, G. I.
Jillian
Know you don't know what any of those words mean, but. So that song was stuck in my head all day.
Patrick
Oh, my God.
Jillian
So.
Patrick
But Schooly's like, Phoenix in the 90s was a very special place. Raves were new to to me and new to everybody around us. It was like a wonderland.
Jillian
It was a magical time. It was a wonderland.
Patrick
Phoenix in the 90s.
Jillian
He's like, I would just stand in the dark and no one could see me, and I couldn't see anyone. And I just, like, take my hand out and collect the money, and they take the pill. He was making 15 to 18 grand per night. His pockets were overflowing with money. And I'm like.
Patrick
He's like, it's all cash. I was like, imagine if Venmo had been around.
Jillian
Can you imagine?
Patrick
You know what I mean?
Jillian
But still, like, you guys are, like, exaggerating.
Patrick
And even still, like, no matter what it is, it was probably magical for one week. Because if you think that you're going to be able to do this forever and somebody's not going to try to come in and take this away from you, you're fucking crazy.
Jillian
Well, that's exactly what happens. So Schooly and English Sean get wind of Gerard Mike Papa, and everyone hates each other.
Patrick
Yes, of course.
Jillian
So they're like, you know, Team English Sean is like, oh, who are these fucking wannabe Mafia guys? Like, they watch the Sopranos one too many times.
Patrick
Well, but then I was like, well, but they actually, actually are mafia. You know what I mean?
Jillian
Like, he, like, they're like, he's like the son of a Mafia guy.
Patrick
Yeah. But I mean, at least the costum, because he knows what they look like.
Jillian
Well, here's the thing. This is so exhausting because, like, Gerard Gravano and Mike Papa wanna meet with English Sean, and English Sean, like, isn't interested.
Patrick
Right?
Jillian
So Gerard feels, quote, disrespected. I'm not gonna let anyone disrespect me.
Patrick
And I'm like, can I just.
Jillian
Can I just say something? You're so exhausting. Like, you actually love being disrespected.
Patrick
Yes.
Jillian
Like, whenever I hear that, like, because now it means you could try to be the big man and, like, be tough. It's so exhausting. Like you love it.
Patrick
And also, I just wanna say, once again, this is who I am to my core. I'm kind of like, why can't everyone. Like, why can't they just come together and, like. And then everybody went. And I'm sure that, like, ultimately, like, English on would just have gotten killed or whatever, you know, but, like. But I'm like, well, it doesn't have to be evil. You know what I mean? And two, I mean, also, don't do ecstasy. It's really bad for you.
Jillian
But maybe I'm just like, deflect. I'm just totally making this up. Speculating wildly. But maybe Big Sean was like, I'm not really interested in meeting with you. Like, you do your thing, I'll do mine. But, like, sammy Gravano's kid is like, I'm Sammy Gravano. Blah, blah, blah, blah. Don't disrespect me. You love being disrespected.
Patrick
Don't disrespect. That is the dumbest, machoiest, bro. Iest, dudious, manniest thing. I fucking hate that.
Jillian
And they will look for any reason to be disrespected because they love it. So Gerard goes to the Ice palace or whatever.
Patrick
Don't drag. The Ice Palace's good name.
Jillian
Sorry.
Patrick
It's okay.
Jillian
The ice. Whatever.
Patrick
The ice maker, whatever. Yeah.
Jillian
And goes to start some shit.
Patrick
The ice device.
Jillian
Sure. The Ice device Goes to start some shit with English Sean, who's just like, I don't care about you. I don't want to be involved.
Patrick
Yes.
Jillian
Now, according to Gerard. So a few grains of salt.
Patrick
Yeah.
Mike
This kid came running right up to us. He was like, what do you want? Got this kind, this kind, this kind. And I said, okay. And I just took them. He said, what are you doing? I said, go tell Sean that Jarrod took his shit. And if you don't walk out of here right now, I'm going to send you out of here on a stretcher.
Patrick
Now, you go tell Sean that this is my property now, and if he comes free, I'm going to have him killed.
Jillian
And I'm sure there was a few like, don't you know who my father is? I don't think my father, the guy who ratted out John Gotti, would be too pleased to hear about this.
Patrick
Totally. Oh, my God.
Jillian
With toaster strudel from Mean Girls. So here's the English Sean backstory, if you care.
Patrick
I can't believe we're getting this.
Jillian
Yeah. He's from a chemical manufacturing town outside Liverpool, Yeah. He didn't grow up with a lot of money. His dad was a door to door insurance salesman. I am falling asleep as I sit here.
Patrick
Earliest influences were that movie Wall Street. That's where the greed is good thing came from. He wanted basically, I know Sean wanted to like get into the stock market and make money that way. That was his big goal. He wanted to be rich, he wanted to get out of his little town. He wanted to come to America. That's his dream.
Jillian
And then he went to 1Rave and was like, wa to do this instead.
Patrick
Which I feel like is what happens the first time anybody takes ecstasy. People may assume because I'm a gay that I've done ecstasy. I've never done.
Jillian
You're here to say absolutely, I know.
Patrick
And I have a friend who has done ecstasy who was like, you can't ever do it because like it takes all of your serotonin at once. That's why you feel so great for a couple of hours. But then you like need to take the next three days off.
Jillian
Oh my God.
Patrick
Nobody's got time for that.
Jillian
But like this is what it where he's like, oh my God, I love this feeling. Yeah, I want to live in this feeling. Of course, gives up all his dreams and is like an ecstasy dealer now.
Patrick
Because the thing is he came to America and got a good gig. He like worked his way up in this like penny stock situation. He's making $500,000 a year, goes to one rave, does X one time and he's like, this is my lifetime.
Jillian
Yeah.
Patrick
Like most people, it's like you and coffee.
Jillian
It's exactly espresso.
Patrick
It's like you and those espresso drinks.
Jillian
Very different.
Patrick
Yeah, yeah. You're going to be dealing espresso under the Brooklyn Bridge in two minutes.
Jillian
Like, are you kidding? Bye everyone. It was fun. I'm feeling not great if I'm being honest.
Patrick
It's like the ecstasy of it all. Two minutes ago you were on top of the world feeling you were dreaming of those coffee ice cubes.
Jillian
My mouth is really dry.
Patrick
But that's what happens with ecstasy.
Jillian
My sex kind of hurts. I don't know how you people live like this. Most people would be thrilled to make that kind of money, but not English Sean.
Patrick
No.
Jillian
So Sean takes ecstasy from a guy named Moo.
Patrick
I'm sure he's gay. Like with a name like that, probably Moo.
Jillian
Moo.
Mike
Ecstasy was virtually impossible to source in Phoenix, Arizona. Most we could get from local dealers.
Patrick
50 to 100.
Mike
I can't even get enough to hook up my friends. So I'm seeing that there is an arbitrage opportunity. If we can find out where these guys are getting them from. There's a possibility here of making a.
Jillian
Lot of cash fast. So then he gets in touch with a supplier named Saul in California, and he does his first quote. Interstate bulk ecstasy transaction. So he buys the pills at 12 bucks a pill, but he's selling them for 20, 25 bucks each.
Patrick
Now, I get that that's like a double markup and then some. I get it. But he makes 100k in one weekend. That's great money. But, like, you're now a drug dealer, Sean.
Jillian
Wait, but that means he sold 4,000 pills.
Patrick
Okay.
Jillian
In a weekend.
Patrick
Oh, I bet you. I mean, I could sell 4,000 pills in a weekend.
Jillian
I guess these numbers seem like 4,000 pills next weekend.
Patrick
I know, but I.
Jillian
But I guess if he's selling in bulk, I guess. I mean, I'm probably.
Patrick
Everybody's buying two or three pills. I mean, they're 25 bucks, like, you know what I mean? Like, these party raver kids buy four.
Jillian
Of them, I guess.
Patrick
Yeah.
Jillian
English Sean gives up his Gordon Gekko dreams. He becomes a full time ecstasy dealer. Then he meets Schooley, who everyone warned him not to work with.
Mike
He was living rough, smoking crack, eating out of dumpsters, and people warned me to avoid him, but my attitude was to give everybody an opportunity.
Patrick
He said, if you can get rid.
Mike
Of these pills for me, I'll give you a job. He sold them like that.
Patrick
You know what? I like to give everybody a shot, he says, and then they become like co workers, and then they become like brothers.
Jillian
Big brother, little brother. Yeah, But Schoolie's like, oh, Sean was always getting me out of trouble. He paid for everything. Of course, Schoolie stuck around.
Patrick
I've got like, 10 of those.
Jillian
He's like, in return, I sold his drugs. It was a really great brotherly relationship, and everything was great. It was a multimillion dollar monopoly until the Gravenholms came off, of course.
Patrick
And. But that was always going to happen. That was always going to happen, Right?
Jillian
Like, that's the gig.
Patrick
Yes.
Jillian
Like, that's what it's like to be a drug dealer. It's not fun. No, it's not fun, I'm assuming.
Patrick
And so, like. Right, exactly.
Jillian
But like, so can you imagine if I was like that for that week?
Patrick
I was a drug dealer. I was a drug dealer. Well, you're dealing coffee underneath the Brooklyn Bridge. Like, that's gonna be you in One minute.
Jillian
What if I never sleep again?
Patrick
I know. Well, we learned that Gerard, he gets his pills, and they look different than Sean's pills.
Jillian
Like you're all buying and selling ecstasy and driving over state lines and breaking a ton of laws.
Patrick
That's exactly what it is. And Schooley explains that, like, pre 9 11, Americ, when they were doing this shit was wild because there was no Homeland. I was trying to remember exactly what it was like. I know I can't remember. I talk about going to meet Bea Arthur at the airport, and it was pre 9 11. I only know that because they let me go. Well, because I know the year was 1997, but also, they let me walk right to the gate. I was like, I'm just gonna go. I'm meeting a celebrity. Let me go to the gate and meet her.
Jillian
Like. Cause I know it's such a trope now, but you can't write, like, in movies and TV shows of someone, like, running to get you at the. At the airport gate. Like, you can't do that.
Patrick
I was trying to remember what it was really like, but he describes it as like, you just had to put your stuff through, like, an X ray machine. Like, your bag went through X ray machine. I'm trying to figure out a new.
Mike
Way every time to get these pills.
Patrick
Back on the plane with me. Nobody can see anything taped to your legs when you're wearing huge Jen Code jeans going through security. I could have probably taped a German shepherd to my legs and got through. And just, like, walking past, there was no metal detector.
Jillian
And on the off chance they had dogs there. Yeah, I can't smell the pills. No, they don't give a shit.
Patrick
I cannot believe that planes weren't hijacked all the fucking time.
Jillian
It's very easy to travel with pills and drugs. Then we learn, like, there's an ecstasy problem in America, especially in the 90s. Teenagers are popping pills, we're told, and so the cops are going undercover, trying to bust all these teenagers.
Patrick
Oh, my God.
Jillian
So now we meet a bunch of the cops.
Patrick
Oh, God, James is here. Matt Shea, and then Rose James, he's.
Jillian
Not into the rave scene. He's more of a Springsteen guy. He loves Springsteen.
Patrick
He's from Jersey.
Jillian
So obviously, of course, Matt is another undercover officer. And Rose, she was amazing, apparently, because she was, like, young, pretty, and personable.
Patrick
Matt describes her as this young, gorgeous, hot. There's something about the word narc that it feels like we shouldn't be allowed to say. It feels like. It just feels like a Very harsh word.
Jillian
Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, don't narc.
Patrick
Well, don't.
Jillian
It is kind of harsh. Maybe you should narc so you can't rat. You said before, don't rat on anybody. Narcing is rat.
Patrick
No, I'm a ratter. Like, I. Like if you kill somebody. We've been over this a thousand times. If you murder somebody, I'm gonna tell on you.
Jillian
This is the one reason why you'd never be in the mob. The one and only reason.
Patrick
No, I think narcissist and ratting is.
Jillian
Fine, but you would love the drama of the mob. It's very gossipy. It's a lot of drama.
Patrick
I might go home and just, like, binge mob wives.
Jillian
It's a lot of. It is insane. Yeah, it's, like, crazier than you think.
Patrick
I can't. The line I can't get out of my head is, karen, stand up. We need to fight.
Jillian
No, she. No. Karen, get up. Is it. It's not even. Like, everyone knows. And then, like, the chairs go flying because their reunions, like, the Bravo reunions are like, the set's all decorated and every. Everyone sitting there. The mob wives. Because it's VH1. It's not Bravo.
Patrick
Yeah.
Jillian
So they do it. And like, when. Oh, my God, this is so good. But hold on. When they go to the reunions, you're.
Patrick
Having a conversation with yourself. There's Caffeinated Jillian and not Caffeinated Jillian, and you're talking.
Jillian
Caffeinated Jillian is what my brain is like internally, anyway. It's. The ADHD is now all on the outside, more than it ever has been.
Patrick
This is a wild.
Jillian
And I'm feeling outside of myself.
Patrick
Yes.
Jillian
Travel down, girl.
Patrick
Golden just got a haircut. It's summertime. The poor little guy was so hot. He's like the cutest little thing in the dog park now.
Jillian
Cute. I do love when they're a scraggly muppet, but I know that they need the haircut for the summer, you know?
Patrick
Yeah. Well, guess what, girl. Today's episode is sponsored by the ASPCA Pet Health Insurance program. We are obsessed.
Jillian
Yeah. So I obviously love my pet, but if you have a pet, you know that, like, you'll do anything for them. And because they can't communicate. So, like, a few weeks ago, Fiona has a really sensitive stomach, as you know, like, she's allergic to everything, and she ate something accidentally that she shouldn't have, and we had to, like, run to the E. Like, sometimes these things, like the doggy er. She's totally fine. She's rehydrated. She's great. But those things are going to happen. Like, you just kind of never know. You can't plan for anything like this. So having insurance is really helpful.
Patrick
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Jillian
Yeah. So the ASPCA pet health insurance program has been around for over 18 years and, and they've helped more than 600,000 pets during that time.
Patrick
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Jillian
Because as we know, vet bills can really add up, especially when you're least expecting it.
Patrick
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Jillian
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Patrick
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Jillian
The ASPCA is not an insurer and is not engaged in the business of insurance.
Patrick
Anyway, the narcs are here. They're very young, they're very cute, and the whole thing is we actually inserted.
Mike
Detectives in high schools and did the.
Patrick
Whole 21 jump street thing, not knowing.
Mike
Where it was going to take us.
Jillian
That's when we first found out about.
Mike
This ecstasy rave club culture.
Patrick
They're going into high schools to like narc out these kids and get them off ecstasy, which I think is a good thing.
Jillian
And the raves too. They're going in because they're all like, it's the easiest gig any of these people ever had because they're all dumb 16 year old kids fucked up out of their minds on ecstasy, being like, oh, like, I'll be your friend. Like, stoned and happy.
Patrick
Being hot enough in your, like mid-20s to like pass yourself off as a 16 year old. That was not my journey.
Jillian
Really?
Patrick
No. Remember Big Pat from high school?
Jillian
No, I do not. You did it to yourself. I don't care when it comes back.
Patrick
I know when I get the T shirt next week.
Jillian
Like, no one even considered there'd be undercover cops. They're just like very happy, very thirsty, dehydrated, being like, yes, the thing about.
Patrick
Ecstasy, that's why, like, all of these kids are so dumb. Because, like, well, we'll get to it when we get to it. But, like, they're. The kids buying the ecstasy are ratting everybody else out. Cause they're so fucked up.
Jillian
Because Rose is like, hey, where'd you get this ecstasy? And they're like, big papa, my papa or whatever. I love it when you call me Big Papa. And like, they're like, oh, English Sean. Oh, so they, like, the cops know about these two.
Patrick
They're like, flashing their badges. Where'd she get it? Right over there. Beautiful.
Jillian
Oh, my God, this badge is so pretty. Oh, my gosh. Like, but I bet you're 26, pretending to be 16.
Patrick
You're that beautiful.
Jillian
Oh, my God. Exactly. They're just, like, ratting. So, like, the. The feds learn about this.
Patrick
It's the easiest gig on earth.
Jillian
On earth. This, like, rivalry ecstasy thing in two seconds flat.
Patrick
Yes.
Jillian
So here's the thing about Mike Papa. He wasn't going to seedy raves because he wanted to be like. Like, this is the definition of a big fish in a little pond.
Patrick
Y.
Jillian
He couldn't hack it as a big time fancy mob guy in New York, so he tried to do it in Phoenix.
Patrick
Yes.
Jillian
So he's, like, going to the high end clubs. She's all about the aesthetic, trying to look rich. And so they have a wire on Mike Papa's phone.
Patrick
Yes.
Jillian
Let me. Hold on. We gotta slow down on this. I say to myself that call was.
Patrick
Significant because Mike Papa's phone was registered.
Jillian
Back to Marathon Construction. So another detective and I went to that location to do some surveillance. I was looking through binoculars and I was like, oh, my God, I can't believe it. It's Sammy the Bull Gravano.
Patrick
Just to be super clear, Sammy has been kind of in witness protection. Right. Like, he was.
Jillian
But then he left it. He was in Del Carad.
Patrick
But the idea is that he's hiding out there. Nobody knows where he is, and it's Rose on the binoculars. Who fucking knows who this guy is? Like, I would know Gwyneth Paltrow, you know what I mean?
Jillian
It was. Because it was not that long ago. I mean, the John Gotti thing was the biggest story because it took so long to get him.
Patrick
Yes.
Jillian
And then the way they got him and his best friend Flip, like, it was huge.
Patrick
And, like, everyone's pissed off because they helped this guy. They got him out, they got him in witness protection, kept him alive, and now he's back to his life of crime.
Jillian
Right. Well, as he tells it. So it's just like, oh, interesting. That his phone. Why is Mike Papa's phone registered to Sammy the Bull's construction company? So. But then two minutes ago, the son was like, I didn't know who Mike Papa was. Like, you guys are just fucking lying.
Patrick
Exactly.
Jillian
Don't insult me, Karen. Get. So Sammy is here to set the record. He's like, oh, back in the glory days when I was murdering all those people, I never touched the drugs. I could have made millions. I didn't. I killed at least 19 people, but I didn't touch heroin. He wants a medal for that, Sammy. You're not getting his followers. I know.
Patrick
What Sammy is trying to say is, I didn't want my son to be in the drug trade, But I wanted him to learn that for himself. I didn't want to, like, beat it up.
Jillian
How did Mike Papa's phone get registered to his very legit construction business?
Patrick
Exactly. Exactly, exactly. Well, what Sammy is saying is, like, look, you gotta get out. And. And his son Gerard is like, dad, we can get out, but only if we do four more big scores and you need to pay for it.
Jillian
And Sammy's like, well, look, I never would have accepted that price back in Staten island. But we're in Phoenix now, Toto. So here I am.
Patrick
So he's gonna pay 150k four times over so his son can do the last four big drug scores before he gets out.
Jillian
And Sammy wants us to think and believe that he went to his son.
Mike
If I fund four deals, four big deals, would you give me your word that you guys would quit? You'd have a pocket full of money, and then come with me in legitimate business? So four deals and then you're done. But I want interest on my money. Like, I would lend it out As a gangster.
Jillian
What can I do to help you go legit? Oh, fund all of these things. And at the same time, Sammy's like, you have to pay me back with interest. Cause I'm still Sammy the Bull after all.
Patrick
With that. I screamed when I heard that.
Jillian
With the guy who.
Patrick
With interest.
Jillian
With the guy whose cell phone is registered to his very legit construction business. And I just hear Tony Soprano when Meadow's like, dad, are you in the mafia? She's like, you're in waste management. And he's like, it's a stereotype and it's offensive. Like, I like. And I'm like, tony, girl. But that's how I feel. Like, do you want us. Do you really want us to believe that you had this heart to heart, come to Jesus moment, and Sammy the Bull's, like, helping his son get. You guys were in this from day one.
Patrick
Totally. And so now they've got all this money. Gerard can go to LA and, like, get in on Sean's guy in LA or whatever. So now they're going to L. A. Which means Sean's got to go get his pills from Amsterdam.
Jillian
Sure. The money, like, whatever. Okay, great.
Patrick
I believe Sean and the pills are way cheaper in Amsterdam. Way cheaper.
Jillian
The money is coming in so fast that English Sean doesn't know how to handle.
Patrick
He literally explains with how he launders the money. And I did not understand.
Jillian
Yeah, he's just like, opening a bunch of accounts and under fake names and moving the money.
Patrick
Exactly. Yes, yes.
Jillian
But he says he's like, I have gangster itis. I'm loving this lifestyle. It's like living in a movie. And I'm like, sean, hey, dummy, how do all of those movies end? How does Goodfellas end? Nobody's happy. They're either dead or miserable or in prison. Or in prison. So it's like, Sean, what movie did you watch, sweetheart? Making Blue Eyes, where everyone's happy at the end.
Patrick
Right. But no, like, the feds are just following them all around because they want to get Sammy the Bull. They got to be able to connect Sammy the Bull to this so they can get that guy. That's who they really want.
Jillian
What's their. Like, wait, Sammy the Bull is exactly. Oh, sh. And that's when they connect. Oh, Mike Papa's phone is registered to one of his four legit businesses, the construction one. And they're like, oh, this is. Come on.
Patrick
Right.
Jillian
So the Feds wire up Sammy the Bull's office.
Patrick
Yes.
Jillian
I don't think he's ever done business in that. Like, they're not hearing him conduct any real business.
Patrick
He's not building houses in Phoenix.
Jillian
And, like, he has four or five legit businesses.
Patrick
The pools at the same time, the restaurant. The restaurant was great.
Jillian
But you know what? The restaurant's real.
Patrick
Yeah.
Jillian
Because a lot of this is happening at. Or it's just a front. Whatever. How many people are going to Uncle Sal's in Phoen?
Patrick
Oh, well, next time we go to Phoenix next year, I'm going, if it's still there, I'm going, if it's still there, I want to go to the building that. Even if it's a Domino's, which would be amazing.
Jillian
I mean, probably like a bank.
Patrick
Yeah. You're right.
Jillian
Like, in the world where I'm, like, wishing for Domino's.
Patrick
I know.
Jillian
So Sean allegedly is selling 140,000 pills a week compared to Gerard Gravano's 10,000 pills, I'm like, 140,000 a week.
Patrick
Sean knows all the gays, so all of them.
Jillian
They're his favorite. He's their favorite.
Patrick
But, I mean, honestly.
Jillian
And Gerard Gravano is like, I knew.
Mike
A couple of his dealers, and I called them in. We told him, tell Englishaun, Arizona is ours.
Jillian
You hear what the man said?
Mike
Every pill he sells from here on out, he needs to pay us 50% on every pill he fucking sells.
Jillian
I run Arizona, and he needs to pay us 50% on every single one of his bills. What are you talking about? I know Sean is blowing you out of the water.
Patrick
I know, I know. And he's like, you think that he's scared because Sammy the Bull's your dad.
Jillian
And it's like this. The entitlement of this asshole. And I promise you, Gerard's like, I'm gonna look so cool in this documentary.
Patrick
Well, and so, like. Right, Exactly. And this is where Sean is like, well, I wasn't gonna back down, but I was gonna get some security. So we learn about this guy Wildman.
Jillian
Because Sammy the Bull is a serial killer. And he's like, oh, I didn't know he was involved. I need to get Wildman, who's another probable serial killer.
Patrick
Yeah, Wildman's like Shawn's friend from growing up. Put a pin in Wild Man. We got more to come back to him about.
Jillian
He's described as a maniac.
Patrick
I know you got. I mean, like, if you're in this line of work, you are a maniac.
Jillian
You. But. And you definitely should have a wild man. I don't want to be anywhere around him, but if you're going to do this, everyone needs a wild man.
Patrick
Wild God, bitches. He is such a maniac that we get this story now that one night, Schooly is at Ice Village or whatever selling pills. These two kids bring him into the bathroom to buy pills. Next thing Schooley knows, he's on the ground. He's been robbed. It is.
Jillian
By, like, Sammy the people.
Patrick
Yes, it's that. So now Wild man that very night, hears about what just happened to their guy, and he says, and I quote, let's go over there right now. Nobody fudgeing. Rips the English off.
Jillian
I have to tell you, English, Sean must have been really amazing to work for. And I'm not making A joke. Because everyone is super loyal to him.
Patrick
Yes.
Jillian
Like, more loyal than the Gravano's ever could be.
Patrick
Uh huh.
Jillian
Saying. But, oh, they will go on to lecture us about loyalty in just a minute. Fucking hilarious. Yeah, but like, he really. It seems like all of his employees loved him for what it.
Patrick
Well, yeah, because four carloads of people get, like, they just get in the car, they follow Wildman to somebody's house. We don't even know whose house it is.
Jillian
The Gravano house.
Patrick
Is it the Gravano house?
Jillian
They like, ambushed the house.
Mike
Charging into this house, guns drawn. And I can hit Wild man yelling, don't fucking move.
Patrick
We went through every room and took.
Mike
Everything out of that house. PlayStations, VCRs, TVs, shoes.
Patrick
I mean, if it was worth $5, it came out of that house and in somebody's car.
Mike
We cleaned that house out, didn't get.
Patrick
The drugs back, but we got everything they owned. They're stealing everything they can find. They're smashing all the windows.
Jillian
But now it's war.
Patrick
Yes.
Jillian
Because the Gravados are like, not on my watch. Like, we need to fight. I'm like, need. Okay, whatever. So the whole thing is a bad scene. Like, lots of violence, high stakes, lots of money, lots of drugs. Everyone is ready to commit murder. Even English Sean's like, I'll kill whoever I have to.
Patrick
Yeah. I mean, we get the story that Gerard finds out that Sean's at this called Crowbar one night, he goes there to kill him. He can't find him. Like, it's just. It's gotta end soon, right?
Jillian
I think Lashon was making $500,000 a year and decided that it wasn't good enough. So now he chose this life. Like, choices were made.
Patrick
I mean, is it worth it?
Jillian
No, the.
Patrick
It's not worth it.
Jillian
Watch Goodfellas all the way to the end.
Patrick
Exactly. All the way to the end. Exactly. Exactly.
Jillian
So Sammy the Bull is putting hits out now.
Patrick
Yes.
Jillian
$10,000 for English Sean's head on a.
Patrick
Platter, which doesn't sound like enough money.
Jillian
No. But I guess you know what I mean. Low level Phoenix, I guess.
Patrick
That's ten grand. Put it on a platter. The platter alone's gonna cost a couple hundred bucks.
Jillian
Figurative.
Patrick
Okay.
Jillian
Or. I don't know, I feel like. Sammy, you want me to. You want theater? That's gonna cost you a little bit more, sweetheart. Come on.
Patrick
Yeah, dismembering the guy. Put him on your mom's silver platter that she uses for Christmas Eve.
Jillian
Sammy. The Bull's like, please, I did this 19 times. At least.
Patrick
I know.
Jillian
Grow up. And at one point, Sean's like, it just wasn't fun anymore. At this point, it's not fun. And I'm like, at this point, it's not fun. Got it.
Patrick
Got it.
Jillian
The minute you have to call Wild man.
Patrick
Is over.
Jillian
Because Wild man only comes when the fun is not fun anymore.
Patrick
Truly.
Jillian
So meanwhile, in the middle of all of this, shockingly, the Gravano's actually take over the market.
Patrick
Yes. But now the feds are on to them, and they're just, like, literally following them around parking lot to parking lot to get all of the transactions on video, right? So they can connect Sammy the Bull because he's the one they want to get.
Jillian
Because remember, he is. It's not only like an ego blow to the feds, it's also illegal. Like, it's in violation of whatever deal he struck with the feds.
Patrick
Exactly.
Jillian
When he ratted out John Gotti. So at point it's like, oh, so not only are you kind of making a fool out of us because we vouched for you in a lot of ways, you're now doing a ton of illegal shit and funding this epidemic of drug use and teenage. Like, there's just a lot of strikes against.
Patrick
And they're also stupid because they've got the bug in his office.
Jillian
They have a wiretap. Mike Papa's on the phone negotiating this deal with the supplier. And he says, everything the feds do.
Patrick
These people are so stupid.
Jillian
The feds follow Mike Papa to the meeting. They watch the whole thing go down. It's all on video.
Patrick
We see it.
Jillian
They see Mike Papa and this other guy, and they're like, okay, that's at least two people in the conspiracy. Great.
Patrick
We see the guy who's transferring the pills. He gets out of the car. He's looking around like, he could not be any more closer.
Jillian
It's my camera. I want the camera to get my full face.
Patrick
He's, like, literally doing one of these, like, looking for people looking at him.
Jillian
And stopping in case it's out of focus. To get. Give it a minute to get in focus. So they have him from all angles.
Patrick
Like, oh, my God.
Jillian
So the feds are like, cool, we have two people. Let's see where they go and where they bring us to next. Guess what?
Mike
After the meeting, we continually tracked Mike Papa. We were hoping that he would go back to where Sammy Gravano was.
Patrick
And that's exactly what he did. We knew he had the red duffel bag with the pills. And we saw him go into Marathon Construction.
Jillian
Mike Papa brings the drugs into one of Sammy's many legit businesses, the pool one. The construction business, where Mike Papa's phone was registered.
Patrick
Can you imagine this?
Jillian
Talk about a silver platter, where you.
Patrick
Show up and you actually want a pool and you're like, hey, Mr. Gravano.
Jillian
And they're like, we're closed. Like, it's 11 o' clock on a Tuesday.
Patrick
People want pools.
Jillian
I mean, like, we need pools there.
Patrick
We do. Definitely. It's hot there.
Jillian
It's very hot. I know it's a dry heat, but.
Patrick
Hi, Phoenix fam. I love you guys.
Jillian
Hi. But this also means, though, that Sammy did not like. It's proof that Sammy did not get into the business when he claims he did.
Patrick
Right.
Jillian
Why else would this guy's phone be registered?
Patrick
Right?
Jillian
Come on.
Patrick
No, they got him. They got him. They got them all. They've got Sammy, they've got the wife, they've got the daughter.
Jillian
But it's also a provable lie. Sammy the Bull talking into a camera. What are you saying?
Patrick
You just. They never think they're ever going to get caught or. Or they're making the calculation like, we're just going to run this out as long as we can.
Jillian
Right. And like, they believe they're bul. Because it's been decades of this. Yes. So they have Sammy the Bull on the phone. He's arguing with his ex wife about the money.
Patrick
Oh, my God.
Jillian
And so he. This is so perfect. He miscalculated. What she said.
Patrick
Yes.
Jillian
And he calls her to complain, and she's like, what? And he's like, it's wrong. And she's like, it's not. Count it again.
Patrick
And this is the only time we hear that she's the ex wife. That's the only time it comes up.
Jillian
But the thing is, she counted the money, right? Sammy made the mistake.
Patrick
Yes.
Jillian
So. But the fact that. That he made a mistake led to this phone call that implicates everyone.
Patrick
Exactly.
Jillian
And he was wrong all along.
Patrick
Yeah.
Jillian
She's like, count it again, girl. It's all there.
Patrick
They're all just so fudgeing stupid.
Jillian
The feds could hear the money counter machine.
Patrick
Exactly. We hear it in the recording. It's hilarious.
Jillian
Idiots. 24 hours later, the SWAT team comes busting in the door.
Patrick
Oh, my God. He's in his underpants, sitting with his dog on the bed.
Jillian
I mean, the poor dog did nothing wrong.
Patrick
I know that poor dogs happen to bad people. Yes.
Jillian
So they arrest him and his entire family. Deborah, the ex, Gerard, Karen.
Patrick
I imagine she's like, I left this piece of shit. Why am I here?
Jillian
Well, I don't know, girl. Why are you counting his money then?
Patrick
And why are you sending him the 70 grand?
Jillian
Give me a break.
Patrick
I know.
Jillian
So they charge him with one count of conspiracy to distribute dangerous drugs. Ecstasy.
Patrick
Yeah.
Jillian
And Sammy says one word. Lawyer. Because Sammy knows.
Patrick
Of course.
Jillian
So Karen is fine because she had no priors. They basically got her on, like, talking about this on the phone, whatever that charge is called in real life. Gerard is not fine.
Patrick
No. He says he's looking at up to 40 years.
Jillian
And the FBI is pissed.
Patrick
Yes. But see, the. The local cops want Gerard. They want him to get the 40 years. But the FBI comes in and they take over because, like you said, he made them look bad. Because they vouch for him. He's the one they want. They want him to take a 20 year sentence in exchange for giving his family, like, less.
Jillian
Right. So Mike Papa. The cops sit him down and they're.
Patrick
Like, girl, we see the interview.
Jillian
Not only do we have everything.
Patrick
Yeah.
Jillian
Not only are you. You going down for this. Your mother is getting arrested, too. And with that, Mike Papa flips like the good Italian boy he is.
Patrick
Yes. And everyone's freaking out because they're like. And they're probably right. The Gravanos are all saying he knew.
Mike
He was going to do that. The day he met me in that restaurant, Uncle Sals, when he introduced himself to me and I agreed to go out with him, he already knew he was going to do that. He had his mind made up. He had to get out of the jail free card, and he was going to betray me no matter what.
Patrick
I'll tell what I know, and I'll get nothing. And we are going to learn in a minute, too, that this whole time frame is six months.
Jillian
Yeah.
Patrick
It feels like it was 10 years. It was six months.
Jillian
I know. But the thing is, like, obviously that was a tactic. What the cops were saying to Mike Papa. Oh, we're going to like, they knew what was going to make this Italian boy from Long island flip.
Patrick
Yeah. And they show the video of the interview to Sammy. Sammy is losing his mind. He goes, I'm 77 years old. If I could get out of this chair, I would break it over his head.
Jillian
Now this is when Sammy. I mean, I don't know how long he's been talking to the documentary crew.
Patrick
Yeah.
Jillian
But he starts not caring even more because he says something insane. Because the cop saying that to Mike Papa, we know was a tactic, obviously, right. Who knows if it was even true? But Sammy the Bull looks at the documentary camera and says, I'd like to sit in front of that cop who made. Who like, lied to Mike Papa to get him to flip. Says, I'd like to sit in front of that cop with my.357 Magnum and say, you want to cooperate with me now before I pulled the trigger? He'll be number 20. Like as in I've already killed nine people. 19 people.
Patrick
Yeah.
Jillian
Happy to admit it. And now I'm going to kill a cop to make it an even 20.
Patrick
Yeah.
Jillian
And he is just. I was like, I know, I know.
Patrick
I mean, yeah, I mean it's, it's. I mean, at this point in the documentary, Sammy's losing his mind.
Jillian
Losing his mind.
Patrick
Yeah.
Jillian
Because. And, and like that's when like there's.
Patrick
A reason they didn't let him tell the story until now.
Jillian
But like he's been telling it. Like when I was on YouTube today, seeing all these clips of him explaining details of how they came up with how they were going to kill Paul Castellano. And he just says it. He's like, well, we weren't going to kill him at home, cuz the rules. So we knew, like. And I'm like, oh my God.
Patrick
Wow.
Jillian
You're telling all these. Like, the tea is scalding, by the way.
Patrick
I know.
Jillian
How are you still like, I don't under. And all these mob guys are doing it. They have podcasts. It is wild.
Patrick
It is. Absolutely. Because even a couple years ago when we, when we would do a mob thing, you. I remember one time, you're like, be careful, girl. Cuz I was like going in on this mob guy. Like, girl, be careful. Careful what you say.
Jillian
Like now I still stand by that. With the cartel.
Patrick
Yeah.
Jillian
What cartel? Don't say a word. Yeah, but now all these guys are like just happy to report.
Patrick
Like, I know it's kind of crazy. It's wild.
Jillian
But now, like now Sammy is. Because Sammy's like, look, back in New York. And I'm like, I know back in New York, when you flip, it's cause you got slapped around a little bit. Like this kid flipped right away. Now Sammy's giving notes on how to flip. The fact that the Gravanos have anything to say about this kid doing whatever he can to save himself is absolutely ridiculous.
Patrick
Absolutely.
Jillian
Because Karen's like, oh, no, no, he's not a rat, he's a snake.
Patrick
Yes.
Jillian
And Sammy Goes, my son treated him like a brother. And I'm like, how did John Gotti treat you, Sammy? Now, I am not condoning a single thing that these murderers did. It's all bad. It's all illegal. It's not glamorous. I'm not romanticizing it. But, like, do you hear yourself right?
Patrick
100%.
Jillian
That's my question throughout this whole thing.
Patrick
Yeah.
Jillian
My final question. Do you hear yourself?
Patrick
No. But you know what? That is so typical of a documentary like Karen Reid. Do you hear yourself? Do you hear yourself? Whenever the person at the center of the controversy is at the center of the documentary, they never hear themselves, right?
Jillian
And Sammy's like, actually, I'm glad you asked. Because then he tells this story about. He was like, well, actually, John Gotti was the real rat.
Patrick
Oh, yeah.
Mike
Because apparently I cooperated because John Gotti did something that was a rat move. His defense was trying to say that I was killing everybody and taking over everything. So the theory was I would go away and he would go free. In my mind, I said, then fuck you. Fuck the Mafia, and I'm leaving and I'm gonna switch sides.
Jillian
So, like, Sammy was the only killer. John Gotti didn't do anything. Sammy was trying to take over, so John Gotti should go free again. And that's when Sammy was like, oh, fuck Gotti. Fuck the Mafia. I'm flipping to save myself.
Patrick
Yeah, girl.
Jillian
Like, I'm sure maybe some of that is true.
Patrick
Well, but. But now Sammy wants to be a martyr again. Because he's saying his lawyers tell him he can beat this. He probably could. He said, but they'll bury my son and my wife and my daughter. They want Sammy to take 20 years in exchange for giving everybody else a much later sentence. And he says, I told my lawyer, make the deal.
Jillian
So he is trying to say that he had to take all the blame.
Patrick
Yes.
Jillian
He had to admit to his role in this scheme to save his family.
Patrick
Well, because his son is here to also say, my dad had nothing to do with it. It was all me, you know, I.
Jillian
Who registered the drug dealer's phone to your legitimate business.
Patrick
Right, right.
Jillian
That's all I need to hear.
Patrick
But also, why did you do that?
Jillian
Because they're idiots.
Patrick
We're idiots.
Jillian
They're idiots. So the deal is Sammy the bull takes 20 years. Karen and the wife go, and Gerard gets a, quote, light sentence of 10 years. Right. And then Sammy the Bull is like, you want to call me a rat? I took 20 years. And I'm like, I mean, yeah, not for this thing, but for the other thing exactly. Like Sam. What? The mental gymnastics and the word salads that we have to sit through are wild for all of them.
Patrick
We got to take a quick detour to talk about what's going on, Sean. For two seconds only because we got to meet. Because Sean is so freaked out by this that he completely drops out of sight. He moves into an apartment in Scottsdale, doesn't tell anybody where he lives. But Schooly Wild man and his girlfriend, Wild Woman Woman, remain in Phoenix's drug fueled world. Now we learned that this woman, Wild Woman is insane.
Jillian
No, I don't know Wild Woman. Well, I don't.
Patrick
As far as we know.
Jillian
Well, I don't know her, but it feels very like no one had. Like, if your names are Wild man and Wild Woman, you're both maniacs. Yes, but it's a lot of. Like they're putting a lot of blame on Wild Woman here. As if Wild man wasn't part of the problem.
Patrick
Right. Because what they say is that, like, we see her former apartment and she's dealing so much ecstasy out of her apartment. They said there's 300 people a day coming in broad daylight to her apartment to buy ecstasy.
Jillian
And meanwhile, like, Wild man led a crew of 200 people to trash the Gravano's house. And everyone was like, that was totally fine. But Wild Woman wasn't subtle at all. And I'm like, are you trying to tell me Wild man, who was described as a maniac five minutes ago, was subtle about anything?
Patrick
Well, her big crime is that she's now. Wild Woman is now coming in between Schooly and Sean.
Jillian
Well, according to Schooley, she caused a riff between him and English.
Patrick
Riff?
Jillian
Yeah, yeah, like we're in west side Story.
Patrick
But we learn that Schooly is so mad about this and he go, he takes us where he did this. He. He gets a literal firebomb.
Jillian
In his infinite wisdom, this is what he decides to do.
Patrick
In the broad daylight, middle of the afternoon, he takes a firebomb, walks up to her living room window, throws it through the window into her apartment. And you could just see smoke already coming out, shooting out the window. And you just heard people running and screaming for their lives. They had no idea what the fuck was going on.
Jillian
She barely made it out alive.
Patrick
I know English, Sean.
Jillian
This is why everyone told you not to work with Skooly, but you insisted.
Patrick
He'S a little bit. What's the word when you can't control your instincts?
Jillian
Impulsive.
Patrick
He's a little impulsive this guy. A little impulsive. And just like maybe threw a firebomb into her living room. Like, what?
Jillian
And again, I don't know anything about wild women or firebombs or wild man.
Patrick
Yes.
Jillian
Or any of this for that matter, but it seems a little like you're going to blame the woman in the room.
Patrick
I know, I know, I know.
Jillian
I could be wrong.
Patrick
Well, Schooly gets out of town. He has not seen sean in like 25 years. And I was like, why am I expecting Sean to walk in, like through the door behind him? Like some, like, it's some like, sitcom reunion.
Jillian
Yeah. The music comes in. It's a very special episode of the ecstasy drug ran today.
Patrick
Totally.
Jillian
So, yeah, Schooly's like, maybe that was a bad idea.
Patrick
Yeah.
Jillian
Maybe I shouldn't attack wild woman.
Patrick
Oh my God.
Jillian
This might come back on me, you know?
Patrick
And like, can we just wrap this up?
Jillian
Like, this thing ends like seven times.
Patrick
I know.
Jillian
So in 2002, English Sean gets the SWAT team treatment. His mugshot is hilarious. He's like this.
Patrick
It's so British.
Jillian
And this happened because Schooly ratted on him.
Patrick
I know.
Jillian
Schooly portrayed Sean and Wildman. Rats on rats on. This is why you no trust in nobody. Okay? My Sicilian grandfather had it right all over.
Patrick
You know, trust in a body.
Jillian
Now Schooley has a loyalty tattoo that he stands by to this day. He goes, loyalty. I live by that till the end. And I'm like, no one knows what that word actually means.
Patrick
I know.
Jillian
So they give us, I don't know, like who. Someone, like took over the last 20 minutes of this documentary.
Patrick
I hated this so much.
Jillian
But they give us all this on screen text at random times. I just collected it all right here. So, English Sean and Gerard Gravano both received nine year sentences.
Mike
And to my shock and surprise, my prison mate was none other than Gerard Gravano. One day, Gerard told me about his plans the night he came looking for me at the Crowbar nightclub. I hadn't realized how close I'd come to death.
Jillian
They end up bunking together in prison.
Patrick
What? They become buddies in prison? Sorry about that time I almost killed you.
Jillian
You take friends wherever you can get them.
Patrick
100%.
Jillian
So Gerard Gravano served eight years of a nine year sentence. Peter Wildman Mahoney.
Patrick
Oh, yeah, we get his name.
Jillian
How did I get from Pete Mahoney to Wildman?
Patrick
Well, I probably won.
Jillian
Gotta be a maniac.
Patrick
Ecstasy fueled night.
Jillian
I mean, you know, that's it.
Patrick
Ye.
Jillian
He was sentenced to 12 years. Sammy the Bull served 17 years of a 20 year sentence.
Patrick
Like, whoa.
Jillian
Schooley wasn't charged with anything.
Patrick
I know.
Jillian
Loyalty tattoo.
Patrick
Yeah.
Jillian
Did he get the loyalty tattoo before or after we ratted?
Patrick
After. No question.
Jillian
100% to be like, I did the right thing. Right?
Patrick
Yeah.
Jillian
Right. Look, I have a tattoo.
Patrick
I was loyal to the U.S. government.
Jillian
And look, if Sammy the Bull could do it honestly. So 2007, after five years in prison, Shawn is released and deported to the UK by. And then we get all of this.
Patrick
Like we're not doing this with the last 15 minutes of documentary. Is Sean with his dad. It's I love you man. I love you man. I love you man. And then we go right to Sammy and Gerard doing the exact same thing. I love you man. Did you try to be a big shot? Because I was a big shot. You don't got to be a big shot because I was a big shot. Shut the fuck up. You killed 19 people.
Jillian
I mean, at least.
Patrick
Yes.
Jillian
And, and, and Gerard tells this horrifying story about Sammy the Bull forcing him to commit animal abuse.
Patrick
Oh my God.
Jillian
Which we're not going to get into.
Patrick
No, but it was the test when he was a little kid about like doing a horrible thing to a bird that Gerard did not do. And he's like, my dad never thought I was man enough for the mafia.
Mike
A lot of time I, I was acting because I'm your son, people expect me to do things. Whether is that what this whole ecstasy thing was, the drugs, doesn't matter what people want you to be. Just cuz I had a big name, don't live in my shadows.
Patrick
So like I guess that's what you spent your whole life trying to prove your dad that you were a man.
Jillian
Right? Like, and then yeah, he. But he could only do it in Phoenix, Arizona.
Patrick
Right.
Jillian
Which it's no shade to Phoenix. But it's like all these guys keep saying, like, oh, it really felt like a piece of home when M. Papa came in. It's like you guys all planned this.
Patrick
Yes. Yes.
Jillian
Give me a break. And when Karen goes back on Mob wife, she's like, when I was in Arizona for that time and it was fine. Nothing that was fine.
Patrick
Oh my God. And like whatever. Like that's just how it ends. Like it just, it just ends with us hearing that like everybody got big prison sentences that they didn't really serve.
Jillian
And because Mike Papa flipped, he had 37 out of his 42 criminal charges dismissed. He served five and a half years. He was put on supervised release.
Patrick
His whereabouts, whereabouts today Are unknown.
Jillian
Good. I don't care where he is anyway.
Patrick
I don't care either. But it doesn't seem like they're killing people anymore, Mike, so you're probably fine, girl.
Jillian
I don't know. Maybe what they want you to think.
Patrick
Oh, my God, girl. We did Mob Wives.
Jillian
We did. Oh, I wish.
Patrick
I know. What's it called?
Jillian
Sons of Ecstasy. I guess they were trying to do, like, a sense of anarchy thing.
Patrick
Yeah, it's still not a word I know how to spell. Don't do ecstasy, you guys, it's too. It's bad for you.
Jillian
It's really bad for you.
Patrick
Yeah.
Jillian
Not worth it.
Patrick
But do join the Facebook group that's really good for you. For you. It's the true grand obsessed podcast discussion group. Come make new friends. Just hang out in there. It's so much fun to be.
Jillian
It's like the ecstasy without the holes in your brain, literally, you know?
Patrick
And also join the Patreon. Over 450 full ad free bonus apps. You get them the second you sign up. We've got the after parties here where we've been telling cases that we haven't covered on the regular show. We've got the hero belts here where we send you stuff in the mail sometimes and we make extra bonus episodes for you. It's all really fun.
Jillian
And the drag B goes on the entry level. Five dollar level. We're not gay keeping that shit.
Patrick
No. And you gotta come. If you've never been to drag bingo. Come, come, come, come, come. And you'll get a. You'll get an email about it. Like, plenty of notice. So just come and be there.
Jillian
Yep.
Patrick
What do we do next? Girl?
Jillian
Oh, my God. Okay. Susan Smith. Someone stole my babies.
Patrick
Oh.
Jillian
So if you remember, this is the case we mentioned briefly in our sixth bonus episode. It's the Web of Death Body of Evidence episode. So this is two 42 minute episodes. We're gonna do it as one documentary.
Patrick
Yes.
Jillian
So this story is actually. It's also very, very hard. It's about a woman killing her children. So just take care if you want to watch that first and listen to our app. But we. We, like, skid right by it. In the other episode, she was like, that was my cousin. I was like, what?
Patrick
I know. Crazy.
Jillian
So we're gonna dive into it.
Patrick
All right, well, stay tuned for the trailer for that fam. And we love you.
Jillian
We love you.
Patrick
All right, bye.
Jillian
Bye. Don't do drugs.
Patrick
Don't do drugs.
Jillian
You can, like, do THC, but not anything else.
Patrick
That's it. Okay, great. Jillian has spoken.
Jillian
And don't do caffeine. I just learned there's not one minute that goes by that I don't think about these boys. And I pray that whoever has them.
Patrick
That the Lord would let them realize.
Jillian
That they are missed and loved more.
Patrick
Than any children in this world. We just got to get them home.
Jillian
Union County 911 operators received a frantic call reporting that kidnapping of two small boys.
Patrick
Yes, ma', am.
Mike
There's a lady that come up doctor and she some guy jumped into a.
Patrick
Red light with her car with her two kids in it. The 911 phone call described this young.
Jillian
Wife and mother, Susan Smith. And she says that she's been carjacked and that her two children, a 3 year old named Michael and a 14 month old named Alex, who are strapped in their car seats in the back of the car. So it's not just a carjacking. Is this a kidnapping?
Patrick
Oh. How are you feeling?
Jillian
Oh, like crazy.
Patrick
I know.
Jillian
Like there is really a crazy. I apologize. I will never do this again, but.
Patrick
Are you kidding? This is hilarious. Do it every time. Sam.
Podcast Summary: True Crime Obsessed
Episode: 445: Sons of Ecstasy
Release Date: August 5, 2025
Host: Jillian and Patrick from True Crime Obsessed
The episode kicks off with Jillian and Patrick humorously discussing their overconsumption of caffeine, setting a lively and energetic tone for the deep dive into the true crime narrative of "Sons of Ecstasy."
"Sons of Ecstasy" is an HBO documentary that chronicles the tumultuous saga of Sammy the Bull Gravano, Salvatore Gravano’s son, and his entanglement in the Arizona ecstasy trade. The hosts provide a brief synopsis, highlighting the central figures and the intricate web of crime, loyalty, and betrayal.
Sammy the Bull Gravano:
Gerard Gravano:
English Sean:
Mike Papa:
Wildman and Wild Woman:
On Loyalty and Betrayal:
On the Reality of the Mob Lifestyle:
Sammy's Defiance:
On the Consequences of Flipping:
Legacy and Expectation:
The pressure Gerard faces to live up to his father's notorious reputation drives him into the criminal underworld.
Loyalty vs. Survival:
Sammy's betrayal of John Gotti underscores the fragile nature of loyalty within organized crime.
Revisionist Narratives:
The documentary presents Sammy's side of the story, revealing inconsistencies and self-serving justifications that challenge the audience's perception.
The Impact of Crime on Families:
The episode delves into how criminal activities strain familial relationships and endanger loved ones.
The hosts wrap up by reflecting on the tragic unraveling of Sammy's empire. The coordination between local and federal law enforcement leads to the collapse of the drug operation, resulting in severe legal consequences for Sammy and his associates.
Jillian and Patrick emphasize the destructive nature of the criminal lifestyle, debunking any glamorization of mob activities. They urge listeners to heed the warnings against engaging in illicit activities and reflect on the real-life implications of such choices.
The hosts tease future episodes, including a deep dive into the Susan Smith case, ensuring listeners remain engaged and eager for more true crime stories.
Note: This summary captures the essence of Episode 445: "Sons of Ecstasy" from the True Crime Obsessed podcast, highlighting its key discussions, notable quotes, and overarching themes without delving into advertisements or non-content segments.