445: Sons of Ecstasy

Summary

Podcast Summary: True Crime Obsessed

Episode: 445: Sons of Ecstasy
Release Date: August 5, 2025
Host: Jillian and Patrick from True Crime Obsessed

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Introduction: A Caffeinated Commencement

The episode kicks off with Jillian and Patrick humorously discussing their overconsumption of caffeine, setting a lively and energetic tone for the deep dive into the true crime narrative of "Sons of Ecstasy."

• Jillian [00:02]: "Because I've had more caffeine today than I think I've had in my entire life."
• Patrick [00:21]: "You're in for it."

Overview of "Sons of Ecstasy"

"Sons of Ecstasy" is an HBO documentary that chronicles the tumultuous saga of Sammy the Bull Gravano, Salvatore Gravano’s son, and his entanglement in the Arizona ecstasy trade. The hosts provide a brief synopsis, highlighting the central figures and the intricate web of crime, loyalty, and betrayal.

Key Figures Introduced

1. Sammy the Bull Gravano:

   • Description: Underboss of the Gambino crime family, notorious for killing 19 people, including Paul Castellano.
   • Quote [08:55] Patrick: "He is a fucking serial killer. Kind of a good dad."

2. Gerard Gravano:

   • Description: Sammy's 17-year-old son, striving to prove his manhood by entering the drug trade.
   • Quote [05:05] Mike: "This documentary is the story that we never allowed our dad to tell."

3. English Sean:

   • Description: Mastermind behind Arizona's ecstasy empire, rival to Sammy.
   • Quote [02:15] Patrick: "Ecstasy is just for the gays."

4. Mike Papa:

   • Description: Gerard's friend from Long Island, involved in the drug trade with English Sean.
   • Quote [26:46] Patrick: "I like to give everybody a shot."

5. Wildman and Wild Woman:

   • Description: Associates of English Sean, portrayed as maniacs within the drug scene.

Plot Progression

Rise of the Ecstasy Empire in Arizona

• Setting: Phoenix, Arizona, depicted as a hub for rave parties and ecstasy distribution.
• Sammy's Ambition [02:36]: Sammy aims to control the burgeoning ecstasy scene, facing competition from English Sean.

Family Dynamics and Betrayal

• Sammy's Leverage [12:27]: Facing life in prison, Sammy is coerced into flipping to help the FBI convict John Gotti.
• Family Strain [22:01] Jillian: Sammy relocates to Phoenix, keeping his family in New York to protect them, leading to tension.

Gerard's Descent into Crime

• Motivation [17:05] Jillian: Gerard, feeling the pressure of his father's legacy, steps into the drug trade to fulfill familial expectations.
• Partnership with Mike Papa [24:31] Patrick: Gerard teams up with Mike Papa, who lures him into the ecstasy business with promises of quick money.

Conflict with English Sean

• Market Dominance [30:09] Patrick: English Sean establishes a dominant presence in Arizona, challenging Sammy's authority.
• Violence Erupts [35:29]: Tensions escalate as Sammy orders hits on Sean, leading to violent confrontations and power struggles.

Law Enforcement Intervention

• Undercover Operations [46:31] Patrick: Detectives infiltrate the rave scene and track the illicit activities, capturing incriminating evidence.
• Final Bust [58:47] Jillian: A SWAT team raids Sammy's construction business, arresting the entire family and top associates.

Notable Quotes and Moments

• On Loyalty and Betrayal:

  • Patrick [43:20]: "Don't narc on anybody. I've been over this a thousand times."

• On the Reality of the Mob Lifestyle:

  • Jillian [26:10]: "It's not fun. No, it's not fun."

• Sammy's Defiance:

  • Patrick [63:10]: "I'd like to sit in front of that cop with my .357 Magnum and say, you want to cooperate with me now before I pulled the trigger?"

• On the Consequences of Flipping:

  • Jillian [66:26]: "But Cake Gravano's any thing else. It's absolutely ridiculous."

Themes Explored

1. Legacy and Expectation:
   The pressure Gerard faces to live up to his father's notorious reputation drives him into the criminal underworld.

2. Loyalty vs. Survival:
   Sammy's betrayal of John Gotti underscores the fragile nature of loyalty within organized crime.

3. Revisionist Narratives:
   The documentary presents Sammy's side of the story, revealing inconsistencies and self-serving justifications that challenge the audience's perception.

4. The Impact of Crime on Families:
   The episode delves into how criminal activities strain familial relationships and endanger loved ones.

Conclusion: The Downfall of the Ecstasy Empire

The hosts wrap up by reflecting on the tragic unraveling of Sammy's empire. The coordination between local and federal law enforcement leads to the collapse of the drug operation, resulting in severe legal consequences for Sammy and his associates.

• Jillian [67:00]: "So they charge him with one count of conspiracy to distribute dangerous drugs. Ecstasy."
• Patrick [73:41]: "Don't do ecstasy, you guys, it's too bad for you."

Final Thoughts and Takeaways

Jillian and Patrick emphasize the destructive nature of the criminal lifestyle, debunking any glamorization of mob activities. They urge listeners to heed the warnings against engaging in illicit activities and reflect on the real-life implications of such choices.

• Patrick [75:14]: "Don't do drugs."
• Jillian [75:18]: "Don't do caffeine. I just learned there's not one minute that goes by that I don't think about these boys."

Upcoming Content

The hosts tease future episodes, including a deep dive into the Susan Smith case, ensuring listeners remain engaged and eager for more true crime stories.

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Note: This summary captures the essence of Episode 445: "Sons of Ecstasy" from the True Crime Obsessed podcast, highlighting its key discussions, notable quotes, and overarching themes without delving into advertisements or non-content segments.

Transcript

[Jillian]

Okay. This is gonna be a wild ride.

[Patrick]

Okay.

[Jillian]

Because I've had more caffeine today than I think I've had in my entire life.

[Patrick]

You don't like a caffeine person?

[Jillian]

I'm not. Coffee doesn't really do anything to me for my neurodivergent brain, but espresso sure does. And so Mike made really good iced coffee today. And I was, like, sent into outer space. And then I had a second one.

[Patrick]

Oh, my God.

[Jillian]

Even the discord was like, girl, don't do the second one.

[Patrick]

Oh, my God, Really?

[Jillian]

And I was like, I did it.

[Patrick]

You gotta listen to the disc game.

[Jillian]

And then when I came in, you were like, you haven't blinked in, like hours.

[Patrick]

You literally were like, I'm so high on coffee.

[Jillian]

I'm like.

[Patrick]

And I was like, you haven't blinked in an hour.

[Jillian]

So good luck to all of us, me included. I'm talking so fast in ads. I'm skipping words. My brain is like, oh, man, she's in for it.

[Patrick]

Hi, Julia Benzavalli.

[Jillian]

Hello. Patrick Hines.

[Patrick]

Please join us in the Facebook group. It is so much fun. The True Crime obsessed podcast discussion group.

[Jillian]

Yes.

[Patrick]

We got like 55,000 people in there. Whatever. It's so fun.

[Jillian]

Whatever.

[Patrick]

Whatever it is. Come talk about the Epps. Come, like share your dog pictures. You get married. Show us a picture. Yeah, prove it.

[Jillian]

Prove Pixar didn't happen.

[Patrick]

And join us over on the Patreon. Tell them about the paid scroll.

[Jillian]

We have so many episodes on Patreon, so these episodes ad free. Then we do all of those series. Like we're doing lady of the Dunes.

[Patrick]

Yes.

[Jillian]

We did the Body in the Snow, the Karen Reid thing. So that's like all our multi part episodes. Also depending on the tier. Well, all tiers have drag bingo.

[Patrick]

Yes. At the $5, you get drag bingo once a month with schwa.

[Jillian]

Yeah. Who we love. And then. And us. Is that what you said?

[Patrick]

Yes, and us.

[Jillian]

And prizes.

[Patrick]

And prizes.

[Jillian]

And then we have, depending on the tier, we like tell you story. We do like an after party or we do like old school Unsolved Mysteries.

[Patrick]

Yes. We have the hero. They're the ones that like get the stuff in the mail sometime.

[Jillian]

The calendar.

[Patrick]

The calendar. And like the pride thing that we always have. But we've been making extra episodes just for them. Like old school on some mysteries episodes. So much fun.

[Jillian]

Like who's Tyler? If you know, you know. We're doing the Gold leaf lady coming up. If you know the famous gold leaf Lady.

[Patrick]

I can't wait to find out. Oh, my God, girl. What are we talking about today?

[Jillian]

Sons of Ecstasy on hbo.

[Patrick]

Max, do you want to know how I spelled ecstasy?

[Jillian]

Yeah, sure.

[Patrick]

Extra T A, C, Y. I mean.

[Jillian]

I feel like that's a gay club sign.

[Patrick]

Look, here's the. I'm glad that we're talking about this right at the top. Ecstasy is just for gay people and nobody else is allowed to have it. Nobody else should be allowed to have it because when they do, this shit happens. Yeah, well, it's just for the gays.

[Jillian]

Okay, sure. For the gays.

[Patrick]

It's just for the gays.

[Jillian]

The gays.

[Patrick]

Facing life in prison, Sammy the Bull.

[Mike]

Gravano turned on his boss, John Gotti.

[Patrick]

Am I a rat?

[Mike]

I took fucking 20 years to help my kids and my family. A few months later, they're gon kill me to send a message to my father.

[Patrick]

This is Phoenix, Arizona.

[Jillian]

We were trying to start a new life, but we would definitely fish out of water. There's this whole lifestyle in the middle of the desert, having rave parties, ecstasy, ecstasy.

[Mike]

I wanted to control the ecstasy scene here in Arizona. I think I got like 30,000 hits of ecstasy. We got rid of them in a week. But then some guys started undercutting us.

[Patrick]

English Sean English English Sean was the mastermind to our ecstasy empire.

[Mike]

The name Sammy the Bull Gravano entered my sphere. They became the biggest threat to the organization. I don't give a flying fuck. We'll go to war like that.

[Patrick]

I just took off running, smoke shooting out the window.

[Mike]

I was prepared to kill him and bury him in the desert. Everybod knew the consequences of the life. It was me and my family against the world.

[Patrick]

So we're in Phoenix, Arizona. We meet Salvatore's Sammy the Bull Gravano.

[Jillian]

All right, Sammy the Bull.

[Patrick]

Now, I knew nothing about this guy.

[Jillian]

He killed 19 people that we know of.

[Patrick]

Oh, my God.

[Jillian]

He's also known as the most famous rat of all time. Yeah, yeah, but like, don't forget he's a serial killer.

[Patrick]

He is a fucking serial killer. Kind of a good dad.

[Jillian]

Are you fucking kidding me? Are you serious?

[Patrick]

I don' loves his kids.

[Jillian]

Uh huh.

[Patrick]

Karen's a piece of work. Wait till we get to her.

[Jillian]

Like, I can't believe you have, like, no point of reference for Mob Wives. No rip began.

[Patrick]

Was she on Mob Wives?

[Jillian]

Was she on Mob Wives? The whole thing was that Karen's coming back to Staten island from Arizona and. And Renee Graziano was like, over my fucking dead body. And everyone was mad because she's a rat.

[Patrick]

From a rat family.

[Jillian]

Also she Drita married Lee.

[Patrick]

Oh, my God.

[Jillian]

Karen used to date. And then Karen might have cheated on Lee.

[Patrick]

Why hasn't anybody killed them is my question. If they know where they are, why are they still Al.

[Jillian]

Who?

[Patrick]

The women, Any of the children related to this guy who turned on John Gotti. Don't they kill those people?

[Jillian]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

You believe over the course of nine years that these people die?

[Jillian]

They're very into the rules. So the rules are like no civilians.

[Patrick]

Cosa Nostra.

[Jillian]

I mean, yeah, our thing. That's what it means, Our thing.

[Patrick]

Is that what that means?

[Jillian]

Yeah. Or like this thing of ours, that's what it translates to. But usually the rules are like, you don't touch a civilian. People not in the game. Or women and children. But I guess if your family. I mean, we'll get into it. There was allegedly a hit on his son.

[Patrick]

Oh, my God. I knew nothing about any of this. We meet Gerard, who's the son of Sammy the Bull. He is saying, this is the story. This documentary is the story that we never allowed our dad to tell.

[Jillian]

Whatever. It's all such bullshit. It's all like very convenient. Revisionist history, big time.

[Patrick]

I'm just here as a common spectator. I mean, I know nothing. This would be like us covering a documentary about Lilith Fair and you having opinions.

[Jillian]

Why?

[Patrick]

Because I was so, like. I feel like Lilith Fair is to me what the Mafia was to you.

[Jillian]

But I love all of the artists and the music.

[Patrick]

All right, bad example. I feel like it'd be like it'd. Us covering.

[Jillian]

I'll think of party barges. Party barges. That's what it would be, people. Party barges on the hottest day of the year.

[Patrick]

Party barge memes every day that year. And I love it so much.

[Jillian]

I love. There's. We're divided.

[Patrick]

I know. But I did find a party barge paddle boat that I sent to you. That I was like, you and me, five minutes, one glass of wine, we tell people we did it.

[Jillian]

That is a party barge. How is it not a party barge?

[Patrick]

You and me on like a paddle boat. Party barge. I want it.

[Jillian]

Yeah. The two of us with booze. How is that not a party? I defy anyone to be like, that's not a party barge. It most certainly is.

[Patrick]

If we get into the middle of the Hudson and I gotta. I'll do it.

[Jillian]

Oh, God, the Hudson. We'll find a better body of water.

[Patrick]

Okay.

[Jillian]

So whatever tight knit family, they didn't have any idea about their father, like, sure, Jan. Okay.

[Patrick]

But I will say that Like Karen the daughter, all she can talk about is how great her dad is and the amount of pride they all have in the fact that their dad was Sammy the Bull, who ratted out John Gotti and killed 19 people. They are proud of it.

[Jillian]

Oh, beyond. And there is an excuse for everything.

[Patrick]

Totally.

[Jillian]

So Karen was like, I didn't know anything about my father being in the lifestyle, but then at my sweet 16, I remember my friend told me, john Gotti's here. It was at that point I realized my father's first family was the Gambino family, but he was a gangster to the core. He's Sammy the Bull. John Gotti shows up to her sweet 16, and then she's like, oh. And I'm like, jan.

[Patrick]

It'd be like Sarah McLachlan showing up to my sweet 16.

[Jillian]

But I get it if you're like 4 or 5 years old, but Staten Island, I know two things. Wu Tang Clan and the mob. Paul Castellano, the guy who Sammy the Bull famously killed outside of Sparks, lived in what they called the White House.

[Patrick]

Oh, my God.

[Jillian]

On Staten island, like, by the time you're 12, Karen, like, you knew all of your friends were in it.

[Patrick]

Yes.

[Jillian]

Or like, their dads were in the business.

[Patrick]

Do you think it was, like, impressive to her friends that John Gotti showed up at her sweet 16?

[Jillian]

Yeah, for a time. All the parents, for sure.

[Patrick]

Oh, really?

[Jillian]

For sure.

[Patrick]

Oh, my God.

[Jillian]

I mean, Sammy the Bull was his right hand man.

[Patrick]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jillian]

Travel down the road.

[Patrick]

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[Jillian]

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[Patrick]

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[Jillian]

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[Patrick]

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[Jillian]

Just head to cornbread hemp.com/tco and use code tco at checkout.

[Patrick]

That's cornbread, hemp.com,/tco and use code tCO.

[Jillian]

That's right.

[Patrick]

We love you, cornbread.

[Jillian]

Oh, my God. Delicious. We learned. So John Gotti was the boss of the Gambino crime family. Sammy the Bull was the underboss.

[Patrick]

We are so in your wheelhouse. I love it. I love it. You don't even need your notes.

[Jillian]

Barely. Sammy the Bull was the underboss. Like, so John Gotti's right hand man, very, very high up. They're described as, quote, two of the notorious and infamous figures in the history of organized crime in America.

[Patrick]

I mean, Sammy the bull killed 19.

[Jillian]

People, at least that we know of, that he was, like, charged with, including Paul Castellano. Again, famously shot in front of Spark Steakhouse.

[Patrick]

Yeah. When I was a concierge, people used to come in and be like, where's the one where the guy.

[Jillian]

I mean, it was huge.

[Patrick]

And it's still there.

[Jillian]

Cause Paul Castellano, again, lived in the White House in South. It was a major hit for, like, what it meant to the mom as well.

[Patrick]

Was he sitting at the bar? Is that what it was?

[Jillian]

He was coming outside.

[Patrick]

Oh, my God.

[Jillian]

So literally outside. Sparks.

[Patrick]

Wow.

[Jillian]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

That is absolutely wild.

[Jillian]

The photos are, like, very ghoulish.

[Patrick]

And this is the thing where, like, Gerard the son is saying, I never.

[Mike]

Judged what my father did for one second. Back then, I also believed in Cosa Nostra. If he killed someone, they deserve to die. They did something wrong or broke the rules.

[Patrick]

They deserve to die because they broke the rules.

[Jillian]

Yeah. I'm like, that's insane. Your father's a serial killer.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

And now, like, all these mob guys, they have podcasts, they're going on YouTube. It used to be that you don't talk about anything. Like, don't ask me about my business. Now they're all talking about it. There's some video that I found today on YouTube where Sammy the Bull is walking through the assassination of Paul Castellano, happily talking about it like it's nothing.

[Patrick]

So is the mob not a thing anymore? How is this guy alive?

[Jillian]

It's a thing in, like, that's what I'm shocked about. Like, Henry Hill, like, from Goodfellas, used to go on the Howard Stern show all the time, but he wears sunglasses, and I'm like, what? You're in witness protection? Like, what is going on?

[Patrick]

The witness protection. Like, the. My blue heaven of it all.

[Jillian]

The my blue heaven. Shut up. Might melt all of this stuff.

[Patrick]

I Saw that in the movie theater. When we get there, I cannot wait. Oh, my God, my blue.

[Jillian]

I can't believe you just referenced My Blue Heaven.

[Patrick]

Oh, my God. I thought. But, like, that's. This is literally my blue heaven at one point. I mean, it's insane.

[Jillian]

Yeah, But Gerard is 15 years old and he's, like, training at a boxing gym, and everyone's like, oh, my God, you're Sammy the Bull's kid. First of all, you guys are all idiots for, like, glorifying a 15 year old.

[Patrick]

Yes.

[Jillian]

And he goes, that gave me a sense of power that I could do what I want to. And there's no repercussion. I'm like, girl, the word you're looking for is entitlement.

[Patrick]

Yes.

[Jillian]

I felt entitled to do whatever I wanted.

[Patrick]

Who named the guy Sammy the Bull? Did he give himself the nickname?

[Jillian]

No. Karen explains it in Mob Wives where he was like. He was, like, getting picked on, or he picked a fight when he was a kid and all the mob guys were like, oh, the kid's like a bull. You look like a little bull. According to Karen.

[Patrick]

Okay, Karen, I got a lot of questions for Karen.

[Jillian]

When that moment where they do the reunion and Drita goes, karen, get up. And they just start fighting. I can't handle it. Oh, my God, Drita.

[Patrick]

Am I gonna go home and binge Mob Wives tonight?

[Jillian]

Like, Big Ang. I love the wise guys. She had that. Oh, my God. Rip Begin. She ran the Drunken Monkey in Staten Island. Everybody knew Begin. She did.

[Patrick]

She's a bartender, but she was a mob wife.

[Jillian]

She dated all the wise guys.

[Patrick]

Oh, my God.

[Jillian]

So she didn't. She would get, like, pulled in. She served time because she didn't rat anybody. So when Karen came, Big Edge is like, girl, I could keep your mouth shut, but your fucking father couldn't.

[Patrick]

I can't believe I survived high school without being called, like, Big Pat.

[Jillian]

The whole Big Edge boobs out to here.

[Patrick]

I mean, that was me in high school too.

[Jillian]

Oh, my God, the wise guys.

[Patrick]

Oh, my God, Big Pat. Don't start it, Sam. I cannot do it.

[Jillian]

Well, you said it. This is why you can't say it.

[Patrick]

My next live show, I'm gonna get five T shirts that say Big Pat. I just know it.

[Jillian]

Yeah, that's medium.

[Patrick]

They should be size medium. Thank you so much.

[Jillian]

Yes, thank you so much. Doesn't matter what size they are.

[Patrick]

No.

[Jillian]

So 1991 SA, the bull was facing life in prison, and he did the one thing you're never supposed to do above everything else.

[Patrick]

But like, this transcends the Mafia. The one thing you are never, ever any of us are supposed to do is rat out John Gotti or.

[Jillian]

Yes. You know, specifically John Gotti.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

Like, you don't cooperate. You don't talk to the cops. You don't flip. Sammy the Bull flipped.

[Patrick]

Yeah. Sammy the Bull's testimony was crucial in convicting the infamous mob boss John Gotti. But it has also made him a.

[Mike]

Prime target for the criminal underworld. This development is likely to have significant and potentially dangerous repercussions.

[Jillian]

He's the reason that they were finally, finally, finally able to convict John Gotti. Because, remember, we've covered this before. Like, the feds tried to get him several times. Nothing stuck. Hence the name Teflon Don.

[Patrick]

Yes.

[Jillian]

So they needed someone to flip, and Sammy the Bull was that guy.

[Patrick]

Yeah. And they. They got on a flip just by being like, it's him or you. Like, we're gonna get you on, like, all this.

[Jillian]

Catch.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

The way Sammy the Bull tells it is, like, a very convenient story later. One of many convenient stories we hear from this guy. But, like, on the flip side of that, Sammy the Bul. Cause he did the one thing you're not supposed to do.

[Patrick]

Such a ridiculous. Sammy the Bull. It's at once perfect and wonderful and ridiculous.

[Jillian]

It's stupid.

[Patrick]

Yeah. Okay, great. I was wondering if we were, like, allowed to say mean things about these people, or are we gonna get killed?

[Jillian]

Also, Drita. Like, hi.

[Patrick]

Who's she?

[Jillian]

Drita's the one who was so mad at Karen. Like, the Drita Karen rivalry. The first, like, three episodes of Mob Wives are like, are we gonna welcome Karen back? Which is so reality. Cause it's like, she fucking signed the contract to be on the show, obviously, but it's all like, karen'.

[Patrick]

Is that big Ang.

[Jillian]

That's Drina.

[Patrick]

Okay.

[Jillian]

And then it would be Carla being like, should I invite Karen to my party? They're always having parties. Like, Renee didn't come to my party.

[Patrick]

Are these wallpaper in the downstairs bath women or they're a different kind?

[Jillian]

They are a little bit. But, like, they will kill you. Like, Trita. Like, Trita prides herself on being a fighter. Her face changes. She's one of those people where, like, when she's about to, like, lunge at you and beat you up, like, her face changes and you see it in real time.

[Patrick]

I. I would be. He's so scared. There's not a gay in sight, is there?

[Jillian]

Uh, no.

[Patrick]

No, there's not a gay in sight. I don't Know how the show could go on?

[Jillian]

Big Ange I think is, like, surround. But they're not on the show.

[Patrick]

Yeah. Oh, my God. I don't want to be lunged out by Drita. Her name is Drita.

[Jillian]

Drita d'. Avanzo.

[Patrick]

You know what she would like?

[Jillian]

She married Lee the bank robber.

[Patrick]

She'd like a party barge.

[Jillian]

I don't know.

[Patrick]

Okay.

[Jillian]

They like parties where they go and there's like, they're always on a rooftop somewhere.

[Patrick]

Oh, my God.

[Jillian]

Or they're, like, renting out some, like, part, like hall.

[Patrick]

Oh, my God. Welcome to our 15 hour episode.

[Jillian]

I think Drita's gonna be on some new reality, but I can't remember it now.

[Patrick]

Oh, God.

[Jillian]

Anyway, this is the best.

[Patrick]

So. So Sam in the Bull. Despite having killed 19. Admitting. Admitting to killing 19 people, he spent only five years in prison. And then he's released into the witness protect. I can't get over it because he fled.

[Jillian]

He got, like, the bigger fish.

[Patrick]

But like, him and the witness protection, that was what I immediately thought of Steve Martin in my blue house.

[Jillian]

Like, he stands out.

[Patrick]

Like, where are you going to put this guy? He's not going to be working at a Cinnabon.

[Jillian]

Right.

[Patrick]

You know what I mean?

[Jillian]

I mean, he wishes he had the style that. That Steve Barton had.

[Patrick]

Totally.

[Jillian]

Did you hear Rick Moranis is, like, coming back to acting?

[Patrick]

No.

[Jillian]

I forget why.

[Patrick]

That's good news.

[Jillian]

The caffeine has fried my brain. I don't know how you people do this. I can't remember the show that dream is on. I can't remember anything else about Rick Moranis. Like, what am I doing here? I don't regret it for a second.

[Patrick]

No, no, no, no. Yeah. You're fully addicted to caffeine now.

[Jillian]

I mean, but like, those specific iced coffee things that Mike makes.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

So good.

[Patrick]

I'll take a thermos next time, Mike. Thank you so much.

[Jillian]

But seriously, you know why? Because the ice cubes are also made of coffee.

[Patrick]

What?

[Jillian]

He's a master.

[Patrick]

Oh, my God, he's a master all right.

[Jillian]

The espresso martini's top tier.

[Patrick]

Anyway, so he gets sentenced to the witness protection.

[Mike]

They told my father he had to do two years in the witness protection program in Colorado, and then he was done. We never. He went to Colorado. When he was there, we weren't allowed to, but me, my mother, and my sister never went in the witness protection program. We had nothing to do with it. And we all stayed in New York.

[Patrick]

The family never goes to visit. Okay. It was definitely a different time. Right. Like this was before tmz, before cell phones. I would think that everybody would know what the guy who got John Gotti locked up and killed that guy in front of Sparks looks like.

[Jillian]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

How you putting Gwyneth Paltrow in the witness protection program? You know what I mean?

[Jillian]

What year do you think it is? 1997. With that pink dress she wore. Like, but isn't it.

[Patrick]

Isn't it like in the 90s? Aren't we in the 90s now?

[Jillian]

Oh, yeah, I guess we are.

[Patrick]

You know what I'm saying? I'm just saying that, like, you would think that people would know. How are you putting them in the witness program?

[Jillian]

Well, yeah, I mean, I think in that level of the mob, like, everyone. I think a lot of people could be bought in the feds at that time. Like, I think it was. That's the thing. Like, that's why he had a target on his back. He had to go somewhere random. His family, because that happens all the time. Like they even say in Goodfellas to Lorraine Bronco, they're just like. So she's like, well, my mom's birthday's coming up or whatever. And they're like, no, no, no, you don't understand. You're never speaking to your mother again.

[Patrick]

Never again.

[Jillian]

I don't know if I can do this.

[Patrick]

Right. Exactly. So he gets sent to Colorado. The family never goes to visit him over the two years that he's there.

[Jillian]

And Gerard, the 17 year old, is like, I had to step up and be the man of the family.

[Patrick]

No, Gerard, shut up. No, shut up. But at the same time, would be terrified because wouldn't the mob just come and kill his family to, like, make him sad?

[Jillian]

Well, a few months into being in WhatsApp, the FBI comes calling and they're like, oh, they have a hit out on your kid.

[Patrick]

Yeah. I mean, obviously, how are you letting your kids stay in Staten Island?

[Jillian]

So the plan is like, we're going to kill your 17 year old son to send a message to Sammy the Bull, get him to leave witness protection, come back to Staten island, and then they'll kill him there, of course. So the wife and kids leave Staten island.

[Mike]

So we decided to move to Phoenix to be closer to where my father was in Witness. Before we left, we dug up my father's money. I put it in the back of my truck, and I was driving across country with 3 million cash.

[Patrick]

They dig up his 3 mil, put it in the back of the pickup truck and drive to Arizona.

[Jillian]

There's a really Great scene in Big Love. Where Mary Kay Place. Oh, my God, it's in the desert. I know. She is like, she steals every scene she's in in that show.

[Patrick]

Remember when we did our.

[Jillian]

Did you have caffeine today?

[Patrick]

I didn't, but I. All I can think of is, look who's Talking. We did not make a Look who's Talking podcast. We made My so Called Life podcast and she was on My so Called Life.

[Jillian]

She was Sharon's mom again, stealing every scene she's on.

[Patrick]

She. Mary Gay Place is the. And the fact that she's not like an actual national treasure, it makes this. I know. Not. Not. She seems to me not.

[Jillian]

Not in this party bar. She is, like, trying to find all the money she dug up, all the cash that she dug up in the desert. And she. And. And Chloe Savin is like, mom, where is it? And she's like, we. I don't know. There's more money buried in another desert.

[Patrick]

Well, that is the thing. Like, if you're gonna bury the money, you gotta draw a really good map.

[Jillian]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

You know what I mean? You can't. Like, you gotta know where it is.

[Jillian]

I know.

[Patrick]

Put it by a tree.

[Jillian]

So they dig up $3 million in cash, throw it in the trunk and off the road and they drive.

[Patrick]

So Karen tells us that her dad only did three months in witness protection. Oh, is it seven? Okay. The dad only does three months. Three months.

[Jillian]

Seven.

[Patrick]

I guess. I did have caffeine today. Oh, you know what I did? I had a Celsius before we started.

[Jillian]

What is a Celsius?

[Patrick]

It's a lot of caffeine.

[Jillian]

Oh, God, I'm starting to feel it. My heart. The last time I had a sip of it was like, noon. I'm never sleeping again. I'm just. I live here now.

[Patrick]

And that Celsius is kicking in because I'm starting to sweat.

[Jillian]

I'm like. I feel like my apple watch is going to be like, girl, you okay? Because they tell you when your heart rate is up. I have had so many times where it's like your heart rate is up and you're sitting.

[Patrick]

I know what's going on. We haven't had a drink on this podcast in five years.

[Jillian]

Oh, years.

[Patrick]

And this is the drunkest we've been in a long time.

[Jillian]

I'm like, are you here?

[Patrick]

I know.

[Jillian]

Am I here? Here. Travel down, girl.

[Patrick]

Haya is back. These are all about the children's vitamins that are delicious, they love to take, and are actually good for them.

[Jillian]

Yeah, that's the thing. Because typical children's vitamins are basically candy in disguise, like the ones that we used to eat when we were kids. We just have to be honest about it.

[Patrick]

Yeah, for sure.

[Jillian]

They have like two teaspoons of sugar, all these unhealthy chemicals, and all these like gummy additives that we just should not be eating. Especially if you're a growing child.

[Patrick]

Hey, can we talk about the greens for a second? Because we have this fight with Daisy every single day. She will not eat her veggies. Kaya now has a kids daily Greens plus Superfoods Daisy loves. It's a chocolate flavored greens powder designed specifically for kids. So it's packed with 55 plus whole food ingredients to support their brain power, development, digestion. And it's so easy. You just scoop, you shake, or Daisy stirs it and you sip it with milk or any non dairy beverage for a delicious and nutritious boost. Your kids will actually enjoy it. We were so tired of feeling like the parents who like could not get get their kids to eat the veggies. And now she does.

[Jillian]

Yeah, well, those days are over.

[Patrick]

They're over.

[Jillian]

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[Patrick]

Also, we've worked out a special deal with Haya for their best selling children's vitamins. You can receive 50% off your first order.

[Jillian]

To claim this deal you must go to hiahealth.com tco this deal is not.

[Patrick]

Available on their regular website fam so go to Y a H E a l t h.com tco and get your kids the full body nourishment they need to grow into healthy adults.

[Jillian]

Yeah, and then you can teach them other life lessons when you talk to them about the Lion King and hold their hand when you tell them 100%. It's a roller coaster and a half.

[Patrick]

Karen says that the dad only did seven months in witness protection and I wrote it down as witness protections as though you would say like Barnes and Nobles or Stoli's vodka.

[Jillian]

Oh, no, no, no. He went straight to Phoenix to be with his family because his family isn't in witsec. They just like went to Phoenix and so he's ditching WITSEC to be with his family.

[Patrick]

But we also learned that he doesn't. We learn this eventually he's not living with his family because he doesn't want to like, put them in danger. But also the wife threw him out. And no one's saying that.

[Jillian]

No one's talking about that.

[Patrick]

Like, no one's saying that she fucking left your ass. It wasn't your choice.

[Jillian]

We're going to Phoenix for us not to be closer to you.

[Patrick]

Remember when the shit that you did got a hit put on our son? You can't live with us.

[Jillian]

Take a hint, Sammy, right? So here comes Sammy, the bullet justify the murders.

[Patrick]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mike]

To me, the mafia was no different than being a soldier, the army. I never killed a woman, a child, or people out of the life. It was always people who broke the rules of Gosa Nostra. You knew what it was, but everybody knew the life and they knew the. The consequences of the life.

[Jillian]

He's like quoting the Godfather, like, it's the business we've chosen. Everyone knows the rules, blah, blah, blah.

[Patrick]

I don't think that everybody that you think is in the life thinks that they're in the life. Do you know what I'm saying?

[Jillian]

Yes.

[Patrick]

I don't know exactly how the mafia works, but I bet there are some people that are like, I just was at the fucking roulette table with that guy. I didn't do it on purpose. I didn't do it.

[Jillian]

Or they like force you to be in the life. So like, you have this new little business and they're like, hey, if you want our protection, right, you gotta pay us. Because it's like a nice story you got here. It'd be a real shame if someone burned it down.

[Patrick]

A nice little podcast you got here. Wouldn't it be terrible if your 11 year old daughter went missing tomorrow?

[Jillian]

That's exactly right.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

But to that point, Sami is almost expecting to be murdered. Yeah, because like, this is the life he chose. He broke the number one rule. There's an excellent chance he's going to be killed for it. And he seems okay about it.

[Patrick]

Why wasn't he killed? Killed?

[Jillian]

What about this is enticing to anybody? Yeah, none of it is fun.

[Patrick]

But like, did they really? Were they unable to find him? Is that really what it came down to?

[Jillian]

I don't understand how he's still alive, to be honest with you. I don't know what happened. But he also, like, wasn't ever really in witsec. Like, he never changed his name. He's like, my father gave me that name. I'm like, every man is exhausting. Like, they are all so exhausting.

[Patrick]

I know. I know.

[Jillian]

So now, like. Like you're saying he never lived with his family, and he was always expecting to be murdered, and now that he moved to Arizona to be with his family, now his whole family is at risk. I'm like, what kind of life is this?

[Patrick]

It's a no.

[Jillian]

Is anything worth this? The answer is no.

[Patrick]

And then we're. Now we're in Gerard's kitchen with Karen and Sammy the Bull. I love that the wife is not here. Is she dead?

[Jillian]

I don't know. I don't think so. I think she's just smartly erased herself from this narrative.

[Patrick]

The wife is nowhere to be seen. It's Sammy the Bull, Gerard and Karen sitting around Gerard's kitchen while he's, like, making omelets for them. But I wrote this down because he.

[Mike]

Said, actually, when I first came to Arizona, I got concealed weapon permits. I bought two, three guns because I was the man of the house for.

[Patrick]

A long time on two tree guns.

[Jillian]

Two tree.

[Patrick]

I was like, oh, yeah, he got two tree guns.

[Jillian]

Like, how dare you?

[Patrick]

I know.

[Jillian]

And Sammy's now claiming he wanted to go legit. He has many legit businesses, like a pool company and an excavation company and a construction company and all that stuff.

[Patrick]

Like, fronts for maf. Like, all of them would you own. You have a garbage can.

[Jillian]

Stereotype after stereotype after stereotype.

[Patrick]

Exactly.

[Jillian]

Like Uncle Sal's Italian restaurant.

[Patrick]

Yes.

[Jillian]

So Gerard is, of course, working at the restaurant. He's also allegedly in culinary school. And his friend walks in with a charming guy, cool, named Mike Papa. He's from Long Island. He's Italian. Gerard's like, finally a piece of home.

[Patrick]

I mean, I can kind of understand the nostalgia factor here. Right?

[Jillian]

Fine. But, like, they're trying to act like Mike Papa just material. This was all part. This is part of the revisionist history, because the story we hear is like, Mike Pappa walks in, slams $1,000 in cash on the table. It's a gift. Well, in return, all I want you to do is come out with me and socialize. And Gerard's like, cool, free money. And I'm like, sammy the Bull's kid should know that nothing is free, no, let alone a thousand bucks from a quote, stranger.

[Patrick]

I was like, to me, sorry, if you give $1,000 to some stranger and you call it a gift, I think that there's gonna be an exchange of services demanding.

[Jillian]

No. His friend was like, I know a guy who's in the drug scene here. I'm bringing him to your restaurant. Like, this was all a business. Like, you can't brag about how you're Sammy the Bull's kids and then also play dumb about all of this.

[Patrick]

100%.

[Jillian]

Don't insult me.

[Patrick]

I couldn't agree more. So they go out the next night. They go to some club. They're treated like VIPs. The bouncer gives them the best table, bringing them drinks. Now, careful. This idiot. She goes, who doesn't want to go out and pop bottles?

[Jillian]

We came from a lifestyle like that in New York. Anything we wanted, we got. It's like that life that was ripped away from us just started coming back.

[Patrick]

The life that got ripped away from us started coming back. Your dad killed 19 people, so you can have that life, girl.

[Jillian]

He's a serial killer.

[Patrick]

Serial killer. She's, like, mourning the life that quote, got ripped away from. This is not Schitt's Creek, girl.

[Jillian]

No, no.

[Patrick]

You know what I mean.

[Jillian]

The mental gymnastics that these people do to justify and exc. And romanticize is frankly disgusting.

[Patrick]

Disgusting. So Gerardo, Mike Papa become best friends.

[Jillian]

Yeah. They're like, oh, my God. We didn't know this, but Mike Papa was a drug dealer. Girl. The whole thing.

[Patrick]

You knew who he was, right? Come on. Totally.

[Jillian]

So he says, he approaches Gerard and he's like, we can make 200 to $250 per ecstasy pill. And he claims that he's selling 30,000 pills a week. That's $6 million.

[Patrick]

I have 7.5. Maybe my math is fuzzy, but, like, that's, well, 30,000. I have 250.

[Jillian]

But I did the lower things. They said 2 to 2 50. So to be conservative, right.

[Patrick]

Somewhere between six and seven and a half million dollars.

[Jillian]

Which is. But, like, this is a hypothetical.

[Patrick]

Right.

[Jillian]

That Mike Poppa is saying it's not actually happening. Because Mike Poppa says to Gerard, here's where you come in. You're gonna find a supplier that fits our budget.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

And then we can make this number happen. So this number isn't happening. Mike Poppa's trying to sell him on this.

[Patrick]

Yeah, I was.

[Jillian]

It's a ridiculous scheme.

[Patrick]

Well, Gerard is thrilled because we learned he's $30,000 in credit card debt. He's like, 19. I was like, girl, what are you doing?

[Jillian]

So let's become a drug dealer.

[Patrick]

He's like, I needed, like that. I needed the quick, hot cash or whatever.

[Jillian]

Okay, why don't you, like, I don't know, take over one of your four dad's, quote, legitimate businesses?

[Patrick]

Do the pool one.

[Jillian]

That's like, Thriving. Allegedly. Nothing says my business is thriving. Like having five businesses.

[Patrick]

Right? Like, totally.

[Jillian]

Really?

[Patrick]

Okay, girl.

[Jillian]

Sure. Okay. So then Karen finds out and ruins everything.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

Because the supplier's in New York and she doesn't want her brother going back to New York because there's a hit out on him.

[Patrick]

Right.

[Jillian]

So Karen finds, like, the one smart thing.

[Patrick]

Karen says that's actually a good call.

[Jillian]

Yeah. She rats out her brother. Like father, like daughter.

[Patrick]

I know.

[Jillian]

Karen tells her father about this whole thing and Sammy the Bull is pissed.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

Allegedly.

[Patrick]

Yeah. And it's like, you know, Gerard tells the story that he's like, sitting on his couch watching TV by himself. His dad breaks the fucking door down, grabs him by his neck, tackles me.

[Mike]

And he's like, what the fuck are you doing? What are you thinking? You want to go to New York? You want to fucking sell drugs? He felt like I was going behind his back doing something that could affect him and the entire family. And he shook me and he said, you want to die? I'll kill you. If you want to die, I'm not going to let anyone else kill my son.

[Jillian]

If you want a death wish, I will kill you myself.

[Patrick]

He literally says, he goes, I'm not going to let anybody else kill my son. I'll do it.

[Jillian]

And Gerard's like, I'm only stuck in Phoenix because of your choices, and now I have to make my own choices. They get in a huge dick swinging match.

[Patrick]

Oh, my God.

[Jillian]

Screaming at each about choices or whatever.

[Patrick]

Yeah, yeah, Like, God.

[Jillian]

So Gerard heads to New York.

[Patrick]

What'd you say last week? Is there an I get it button, please?

[Jillian]

I know that's my friend Ted's. I stole that from Ted. Gerard heads to New York. He really has his heart set on being a drug dealer and. But we have to, like, get fed the story that Sammy the Bull was like, no.

[Patrick]

Yes.

[Jillian]

Okay.

[Patrick]

Oh, I fell for it. Hook, line and sinker.

[Jillian]

Okay.

[Patrick]

That's why I was like, oh, he's kind of a good.

[Jillian]

And if it happened, it was probably for some other reason. Like, Sammy the Bull was probably mad about, like, six years.

[Patrick]

Well, we're going to learn later that Sammy the Bull doesn't think that his kid is man enough to be in the mafia. I think that's probably down to. It's not that he gives a shit that he's, like, doing something shitty and might have to kill people. He's like, I just don't think you are man enough to do it right.

[Jillian]

So whatever. He gets the pills, he brings them back to Arizona. And he allegedly makes $90,000 in a.

[Patrick]

Week, which is not the 7.5 million he was promised.

[Jillian]

Right. And I'm like, mike, Papa's math isn't mathing.

[Patrick]

Right.

[Jillian]

Because 200 bucks per pill would be $6 million.

[Patrick]

I mean, exactly.

[Jillian]

So it doesn't matter. Gerard is thrilled. I was born for this shit. AKA selling ecstasy. He immediately wants to be the ecstasy king of Arizona. And I immediately thought of the sausage king of Chicago. Dave.

[Patrick]

Of course, Ferris Bueller. Call me sir. God damn it.

[Jillian]

God damn it. Rooney. Oh, my God, So good. But that's not gonna be easy because English Sean runs the show in Arizona.

[Patrick]

Oh, God.

[Jillian]

There's a big rave scene in Arizona.

[Patrick]

No, this sounds kind of fun. And this is how you can tell that ecstasy is for the gays.

[Jillian]

There's this whole underbelly, this whole lifestyle of people that once the club's closed.

[Patrick]

They'Re in the middle of the desert having rave parties.

[Mike]

And the person who threw these graves was a guy named English Sean.

[Patrick]

They would all just go out to the desert with their glow sticks and dance around for the rest of the.

[Jillian]

Night for, like weeks at a time.

[Patrick]

Gay days.

[Jillian]

Yeah, gay.

[Patrick]

Gay.

[Jillian]

Shirtless, not a shirt.

[Patrick]

Show me one straight guy doing that.

[Jillian]

It's like no shirts and just bikini tops or bikini bottoms.

[Patrick]

All still worn by gay men. Yeah, but like, so, yeah, like, English Sean is the guy. He controlled the ecstasy trade in Arizona.

[Jillian]

Yeah. He's got a lot of mantras. Mantras, however you say it, greed is good. Fuck or be fucked. Make the most money by whatever means.

[Patrick]

Like English Sean is here. I was kind of surprised to see him again. How are you sitting down for the documentary? How are you either not dead or in prison.

[Jillian]

And again, all these unreliable narrators telling, throwing out numbers.

[Patrick]

Totally.

[Jillian]

That are ridiculous. And even when he says he had 200 people working for him over the years, the profits were $5 million. I'm like. Still doesn't seem worth it to me. Even with your exaggerated numbers. No way you could convince me to do this ever.

[Patrick]

No, because it's like the reason most people don't do bad things is a. Because you have a moral compass, but also because you don't wanna look over your shoulder, day, every day, wondering when the cops are gonna come and get you.

[Jillian]

Exhausting. Or like your best friend killing you.

[Patrick]

Oh, my God. Yeah.

[Jillian]

Travel down, girl.

[Patrick]

Hydro is back. Now, look. Hydro is that like full body rowing machine experience? Can I tell you my favorite thing about having the hydro?

[Jillian]

Absolutely.

[Patrick]

The fact that you never have to Leave home to get your workout done. Because I always say the hardest part of working out is making, making yourself get to the gym. Imagine if the workout machine was right there in your house. You would do it every day.

[Jillian]

Yeah. There's no commute. You don't have to worry about class times or juggling logistics. You're doing it on your schedule.

[Patrick]

Yes. And so listen, hydro is a game changer because it gives a full body workout. We're talking arms, legs, core, everything. I'm hitting 86% of my muscles in one session and I can do it in just 20 minutes.

[Jillian]

Yeah. Not like an hour long class, 45 minutes away. You're doing it in your home in.

[Patrick]

20 minutes and you can do as much as you want. I've done 6000 meter rows which take me like 40min. I've done 10 minute like fast rows. You can totally do it on your schedule. And I really have noticed. I work out so much more often having my hydro in my house than when I had to walk to the gym.

[Jillian]

Yeah. And it's low impact but so it's like great for your knees and joints and everything but at the same time it gives you a great mix of strength and cardio.

[Patrick]

Yeah. And also the rows are led by these Olympic champions and they've filmed these rows like all over the world. So you can do like a scenic row on the Charles river in Boston. That's where I do it. You can do it in rivers all over, over Europe. It's like scenic and fun and they.

[Jillian]

Offer free shipping, a 30 day risk free trial and a one year warranty. So you're not going to feel locked in?

[Patrick]

No. So fam, skip the gym, not the workout. Stay on track with hydro for a limited time.

[Jillian]

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[Patrick]

That's H Y d r o w.com code tco to save up to 450 bucks.

[Jillian]

Hydro.com code tco.

[Patrick]

Have your gym in your house and you'll go to the gym.

[Jillian]

Come on, you're like a professional rower now. Loving it. Cute. So the Ice House. Not to be confused with the Ice Palace.

[Patrick]

Listen. But gay.

[Jillian]

But gay.

[Patrick]

You know what I mean.

[Jillian]

Cuz it's the epicenter of the rave scene.

[Patrick]

Yes. So see, you can't even do it without saying it in a gay voice. Let's do it again.

[Jillian]

The epicenter of the rave scene. English Sean's biggest market.

[Patrick]

So Schoolie, oh my God.

[Jillian]

Is his master salesman. Don't worry, everyone. Schooly's here.

[Patrick]

School is here. It's one idiot after another. Wait till you meet what's her name. Wig Woman, Wave Woman, Wild Woman.

[Jillian]

Also, Skooly D is a rapper that did the theme to Aqua Teen Hunger Force.

[Mike]

Number one in the hood, G. I.

[Jillian]

Know you don't know what any of those words mean, but. So that song was stuck in my head all day.

[Patrick]

Oh, my God.

[Jillian]

So.

[Patrick]

But Schooly's like, Phoenix in the 90s was a very special place. Raves were new to to me and new to everybody around us. It was like a wonderland.

[Jillian]

It was a magical time. It was a wonderland.

[Patrick]

Phoenix in the 90s.

[Jillian]

He's like, I would just stand in the dark and no one could see me, and I couldn't see anyone. And I just, like, take my hand out and collect the money, and they take the pill. He was making 15 to 18 grand per night. His pockets were overflowing with money. And I'm like.

[Patrick]

He's like, it's all cash. I was like, imagine if Venmo had been around.

[Jillian]

Can you imagine?

[Patrick]

You know what I mean?

[Jillian]

But still, like, you guys are, like, exaggerating.

[Patrick]

And even still, like, no matter what it is, it was probably magical for one week. Because if you think that you're going to be able to do this forever and somebody's not going to try to come in and take this away from you, you're fucking crazy.

[Jillian]

Well, that's exactly what happens. So Schooly and English Sean get wind of Gerard Mike Papa, and everyone hates each other.

[Patrick]

Yes, of course.

[Jillian]

So they're like, you know, Team English Sean is like, oh, who are these fucking wannabe Mafia guys? Like, they watch the Sopranos one too many times.

[Patrick]

Well, but then I was like, well, but they actually, actually are mafia. You know what I mean?

[Jillian]

Like, he, like, they're like, he's like the son of a Mafia guy.

[Patrick]

Yeah. But I mean, at least the costum, because he knows what they look like.

[Jillian]

Well, here's the thing. This is so exhausting because, like, Gerard Gravano and Mike Papa wanna meet with English Sean, and English Sean, like, isn't interested.

[Patrick]

Right?

[Jillian]

So Gerard feels, quote, disrespected. I'm not gonna let anyone disrespect me.

[Patrick]

And I'm like, can I just.

[Jillian]

Can I just say something? You're so exhausting. Like, you actually love being disrespected.

[Patrick]

Yes.

[Jillian]

Like, whenever I hear that, like, because now it means you could try to be the big man and, like, be tough. It's so exhausting. Like you love it.

[Patrick]

And also, I just wanna say, once again, this is who I am to my core. I'm kind of like, why can't everyone. Like, why can't they just come together and, like. And then everybody went. And I'm sure that, like, ultimately, like, English on would just have gotten killed or whatever, you know, but, like. But I'm like, well, it doesn't have to be evil. You know what I mean? And two, I mean, also, don't do ecstasy. It's really bad for you.

[Jillian]

But maybe I'm just like, deflect. I'm just totally making this up. Speculating wildly. But maybe Big Sean was like, I'm not really interested in meeting with you. Like, you do your thing, I'll do mine. But, like, sammy Gravano's kid is like, I'm Sammy Gravano. Blah, blah, blah, blah. Don't disrespect me. You love being disrespected.

[Patrick]

Don't disrespect. That is the dumbest, machoiest, bro. Iest, dudious, manniest thing. I fucking hate that.

[Jillian]

And they will look for any reason to be disrespected because they love it. So Gerard goes to the Ice palace or whatever.

[Patrick]

Don't drag. The Ice Palace's good name.

[Jillian]

Sorry.

[Patrick]

It's okay.

[Jillian]

The ice. Whatever.

[Patrick]

The ice maker, whatever. Yeah.

[Jillian]

And goes to start some shit.

[Patrick]

The ice device.

[Jillian]

Sure. The Ice device Goes to start some shit with English Sean, who's just like, I don't care about you. I don't want to be involved.

[Patrick]

Yes.

[Jillian]

Now, according to Gerard. So a few grains of salt.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Mike]

This kid came running right up to us. He was like, what do you want? Got this kind, this kind, this kind. And I said, okay. And I just took them. He said, what are you doing? I said, go tell Sean that Jarrod took his shit. And if you don't walk out of here right now, I'm going to send you out of here on a stretcher.

[Patrick]

Now, you go tell Sean that this is my property now, and if he comes free, I'm going to have him killed.

[Jillian]

And I'm sure there was a few like, don't you know who my father is? I don't think my father, the guy who ratted out John Gotti, would be too pleased to hear about this.

[Patrick]

Totally. Oh, my God.

[Jillian]

With toaster strudel from Mean Girls. So here's the English Sean backstory, if you care.

[Patrick]

I can't believe we're getting this.

[Jillian]

Yeah. He's from a chemical manufacturing town outside Liverpool, Yeah. He didn't grow up with a lot of money. His dad was a door to door insurance salesman. I am falling asleep as I sit here.

[Patrick]

Earliest influences were that movie Wall Street. That's where the greed is good thing came from. He wanted basically, I know Sean wanted to like get into the stock market and make money that way. That was his big goal. He wanted to be rich, he wanted to get out of his little town. He wanted to come to America. That's his dream.

[Jillian]

And then he went to 1Rave and was like, wa to do this instead.

[Patrick]

Which I feel like is what happens the first time anybody takes ecstasy. People may assume because I'm a gay that I've done ecstasy. I've never done.

[Jillian]

You're here to say absolutely, I know.

[Patrick]

And I have a friend who has done ecstasy who was like, you can't ever do it because like it takes all of your serotonin at once. That's why you feel so great for a couple of hours. But then you like need to take the next three days off.

[Jillian]

Oh my God.

[Patrick]

Nobody's got time for that.

[Jillian]

But like this is what it where he's like, oh my God, I love this feeling. Yeah, I want to live in this feeling. Of course, gives up all his dreams and is like an ecstasy dealer now.

[Patrick]

Because the thing is he came to America and got a good gig. He like worked his way up in this like penny stock situation. He's making $500,000 a year, goes to one rave, does X one time and he's like, this is my lifetime.

[Jillian]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

Like most people, it's like you and coffee.

[Jillian]

It's exactly espresso.

[Patrick]

It's like you and those espresso drinks.

[Jillian]

Very different.

[Patrick]

Yeah, yeah. You're going to be dealing espresso under the Brooklyn Bridge in two minutes.

[Jillian]

Like, are you kidding? Bye everyone. It was fun. I'm feeling not great if I'm being honest.

[Patrick]

It's like the ecstasy of it all. Two minutes ago you were on top of the world feeling you were dreaming of those coffee ice cubes.

[Jillian]

My mouth is really dry.

[Patrick]

But that's what happens with ecstasy.

[Jillian]

My sex kind of hurts. I don't know how you people live like this. Most people would be thrilled to make that kind of money, but not English Sean.

[Patrick]

No.

[Jillian]

So Sean takes ecstasy from a guy named Moo.

[Patrick]

I'm sure he's gay. Like with a name like that, probably Moo.

[Jillian]

Moo.

[Mike]

Ecstasy was virtually impossible to source in Phoenix, Arizona. Most we could get from local dealers.

[Patrick]

50 to 100.

[Mike]

I can't even get enough to hook up my friends. So I'm seeing that there is an arbitrage opportunity. If we can find out where these guys are getting them from. There's a possibility here of making a.

[Jillian]

Lot of cash fast. So then he gets in touch with a supplier named Saul in California, and he does his first quote. Interstate bulk ecstasy transaction. So he buys the pills at 12 bucks a pill, but he's selling them for 20, 25 bucks each.

[Patrick]

Now, I get that that's like a double markup and then some. I get it. But he makes 100k in one weekend. That's great money. But, like, you're now a drug dealer, Sean.

[Jillian]

Wait, but that means he sold 4,000 pills.

[Patrick]

Okay.

[Jillian]

In a weekend.

[Patrick]

Oh, I bet you. I mean, I could sell 4,000 pills in a weekend.

[Jillian]

I guess these numbers seem like 4,000 pills next weekend.

[Patrick]

I know, but I.

[Jillian]

But I guess if he's selling in bulk, I guess. I mean, I'm probably.

[Patrick]

Everybody's buying two or three pills. I mean, they're 25 bucks, like, you know what I mean? Like, these party raver kids buy four.

[Jillian]

Of them, I guess.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

English Sean gives up his Gordon Gekko dreams. He becomes a full time ecstasy dealer. Then he meets Schooley, who everyone warned him not to work with.

[Mike]

He was living rough, smoking crack, eating out of dumpsters, and people warned me to avoid him, but my attitude was to give everybody an opportunity.

[Patrick]

He said, if you can get rid.

[Mike]

Of these pills for me, I'll give you a job. He sold them like that.

[Patrick]

You know what? I like to give everybody a shot, he says, and then they become like co workers, and then they become like brothers.

[Jillian]

Big brother, little brother. Yeah, But Schoolie's like, oh, Sean was always getting me out of trouble. He paid for everything. Of course, Schoolie stuck around.

[Patrick]

I've got like, 10 of those.

[Jillian]

He's like, in return, I sold his drugs. It was a really great brotherly relationship, and everything was great. It was a multimillion dollar monopoly until the Gravenholms came off, of course.

[Patrick]

And. But that was always going to happen. That was always going to happen, Right?

[Jillian]

Like, that's the gig.

[Patrick]

Yes.

[Jillian]

Like, that's what it's like to be a drug dealer. It's not fun. No, it's not fun, I'm assuming.

[Patrick]

And so, like. Right, exactly.

[Jillian]

But like, so can you imagine if I was like that for that week?

[Patrick]

I was a drug dealer. I was a drug dealer. Well, you're dealing coffee underneath the Brooklyn Bridge. Like, that's gonna be you in One minute.

[Jillian]

What if I never sleep again?

[Patrick]

I know. Well, we learned that Gerard, he gets his pills, and they look different than Sean's pills.

[Jillian]

Like you're all buying and selling ecstasy and driving over state lines and breaking a ton of laws.

[Patrick]

That's exactly what it is. And Schooley explains that, like, pre 9 11, Americ, when they were doing this shit was wild because there was no Homeland. I was trying to remember exactly what it was like. I know I can't remember. I talk about going to meet Bea Arthur at the airport, and it was pre 9 11. I only know that because they let me go. Well, because I know the year was 1997, but also, they let me walk right to the gate. I was like, I'm just gonna go. I'm meeting a celebrity. Let me go to the gate and meet her.

[Jillian]

Like. Cause I know it's such a trope now, but you can't write, like, in movies and TV shows of someone, like, running to get you at the. At the airport gate. Like, you can't do that.

[Patrick]

I was trying to remember what it was really like, but he describes it as like, you just had to put your stuff through, like, an X ray machine. Like, your bag went through X ray machine. I'm trying to figure out a new.

[Mike]

Way every time to get these pills.

[Patrick]

Back on the plane with me. Nobody can see anything taped to your legs when you're wearing huge Jen Code jeans going through security. I could have probably taped a German shepherd to my legs and got through. And just, like, walking past, there was no metal detector.

[Jillian]

And on the off chance they had dogs there. Yeah, I can't smell the pills. No, they don't give a shit.

[Patrick]

I cannot believe that planes weren't hijacked all the fucking time.

[Jillian]

It's very easy to travel with pills and drugs. Then we learn, like, there's an ecstasy problem in America, especially in the 90s. Teenagers are popping pills, we're told, and so the cops are going undercover, trying to bust all these teenagers.

[Patrick]

Oh, my God.

[Jillian]

So now we meet a bunch of the cops.

[Patrick]

Oh, God, James is here. Matt Shea, and then Rose James, he's.

[Jillian]

Not into the rave scene. He's more of a Springsteen guy. He loves Springsteen.

[Patrick]

He's from Jersey.

[Jillian]

So obviously, of course, Matt is another undercover officer. And Rose, she was amazing, apparently, because she was, like, young, pretty, and personable.

[Patrick]

Matt describes her as this young, gorgeous, hot. There's something about the word narc that it feels like we shouldn't be allowed to say. It feels like. It just feels like a Very harsh word.

[Jillian]

Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, don't narc.

[Patrick]

Well, don't.

[Jillian]

It is kind of harsh. Maybe you should narc so you can't rat. You said before, don't rat on anybody. Narcing is rat.

[Patrick]

No, I'm a ratter. Like, I. Like if you kill somebody. We've been over this a thousand times. If you murder somebody, I'm gonna tell on you.

[Jillian]

This is the one reason why you'd never be in the mob. The one and only reason.

[Patrick]

No, I think narcissist and ratting is.

[Jillian]

Fine, but you would love the drama of the mob. It's very gossipy. It's a lot of drama.

[Patrick]

I might go home and just, like, binge mob wives.

[Jillian]

It's a lot of. It is insane. Yeah, it's, like, crazier than you think.

[Patrick]

I can't. The line I can't get out of my head is, karen, stand up. We need to fight.

[Jillian]

No, she. No. Karen, get up. Is it. It's not even. Like, everyone knows. And then, like, the chairs go flying because their reunions, like, the Bravo reunions are like, the set's all decorated and every. Everyone sitting there. The mob wives. Because it's VH1. It's not Bravo.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

So they do it. And like, when. Oh, my God, this is so good. But hold on. When they go to the reunions, you're.

[Patrick]

Having a conversation with yourself. There's Caffeinated Jillian and not Caffeinated Jillian, and you're talking.

[Jillian]

Caffeinated Jillian is what my brain is like internally, anyway. It's. The ADHD is now all on the outside, more than it ever has been.

[Patrick]

This is a wild.

[Jillian]

And I'm feeling outside of myself.

[Patrick]

Yes.

[Jillian]

Travel down, girl.

[Patrick]

Golden just got a haircut. It's summertime. The poor little guy was so hot. He's like the cutest little thing in the dog park now.

[Jillian]

Cute. I do love when they're a scraggly muppet, but I know that they need the haircut for the summer, you know?

[Patrick]

Yeah. Well, guess what, girl. Today's episode is sponsored by the ASPCA Pet Health Insurance program. We are obsessed.

[Jillian]

Yeah. So I obviously love my pet, but if you have a pet, you know that, like, you'll do anything for them. And because they can't communicate. So, like, a few weeks ago, Fiona has a really sensitive stomach, as you know, like, she's allergic to everything, and she ate something accidentally that she shouldn't have, and we had to, like, run to the E. Like, sometimes these things, like the doggy er. She's totally fine. She's rehydrated. She's great. But those things are going to happen. Like, you just kind of never know. You can't plan for anything like this. So having insurance is really helpful.

[Patrick]

Yeah. Okay, so get this. The ASPCA Pet Health Insurance Program offers customizable accident and illness plans, making it easier for pet parents like you to help your pets get the care they may need.

[Jillian]

Yeah. So the ASPCA pet health insurance program has been around for over 18 years and, and they've helped more than 600,000 pets during that time.

[Patrick]

So they allow you to customize your plan, helping ensure that your pet's plan is as unique as they are.

[Jillian]

Because as we know, vet bills can really add up, especially when you're least expecting it.

[Patrick]

Yeah. So fam. It's simple. Use their app to submit a claim and you'll receive reimbursement for eligible vet bills directly into your bank account.

[Jillian]

To Explore coverage, visit aspcapetinsurance.com TCO that's.

[Patrick]

Aspcapetinsurance dot com TCO Again, that's aspcapetinsura.com this is a paid advertisement. Insurance is underwritten by either Independence American Insurance Company or United States Farm Insurance Company and produced by PTZ Insurance Agency limited.

[Jillian]

The ASPCA is not an insurer and is not engaged in the business of insurance.

[Patrick]

Anyway, the narcs are here. They're very young, they're very cute, and the whole thing is we actually inserted.

[Mike]

Detectives in high schools and did the.

[Patrick]

Whole 21 jump street thing, not knowing.

[Mike]

Where it was going to take us.

[Jillian]

That's when we first found out about.

[Mike]

This ecstasy rave club culture.

[Patrick]

They're going into high schools to like narc out these kids and get them off ecstasy, which I think is a good thing.

[Jillian]

And the raves too. They're going in because they're all like, it's the easiest gig any of these people ever had because they're all dumb 16 year old kids fucked up out of their minds on ecstasy, being like, oh, like, I'll be your friend. Like, stoned and happy.

[Patrick]

Being hot enough in your, like mid-20s to like pass yourself off as a 16 year old. That was not my journey.

[Jillian]

Really?

[Patrick]

No. Remember Big Pat from high school?

[Jillian]

No, I do not. You did it to yourself. I don't care when it comes back.

[Patrick]

I know when I get the T shirt next week.

[Jillian]

Like, no one even considered there'd be undercover cops. They're just like very happy, very thirsty, dehydrated, being like, yes, the thing about.

[Patrick]

Ecstasy, that's why, like, all of these kids are so dumb. Because, like, well, we'll get to it when we get to it. But, like, they're. The kids buying the ecstasy are ratting everybody else out. Cause they're so fucked up.

[Jillian]

Because Rose is like, hey, where'd you get this ecstasy? And they're like, big papa, my papa or whatever. I love it when you call me Big Papa. And like, they're like, oh, English Sean. Oh, so they, like, the cops know about these two.

[Patrick]

They're like, flashing their badges. Where'd she get it? Right over there. Beautiful.

[Jillian]

Oh, my God, this badge is so pretty. Oh, my gosh. Like, but I bet you're 26, pretending to be 16.

[Patrick]

You're that beautiful.

[Jillian]

Oh, my God. Exactly. They're just, like, ratting. So, like, the. The feds learn about this.

[Patrick]

It's the easiest gig on earth.

[Jillian]

On earth. This, like, rivalry ecstasy thing in two seconds flat.

[Patrick]

Yes.

[Jillian]

So here's the thing about Mike Papa. He wasn't going to seedy raves because he wanted to be like. Like, this is the definition of a big fish in a little pond.

[Patrick]

Y.

[Jillian]

He couldn't hack it as a big time fancy mob guy in New York, so he tried to do it in Phoenix.

[Patrick]

Yes.

[Jillian]

So he's, like, going to the high end clubs. She's all about the aesthetic, trying to look rich. And so they have a wire on Mike Papa's phone.

[Patrick]

Yes.

[Jillian]

Let me. Hold on. We gotta slow down on this. I say to myself that call was.

[Patrick]

Significant because Mike Papa's phone was registered.

[Jillian]

Back to Marathon Construction. So another detective and I went to that location to do some surveillance. I was looking through binoculars and I was like, oh, my God, I can't believe it. It's Sammy the Bull Gravano.

[Patrick]

Just to be super clear, Sammy has been kind of in witness protection. Right. Like, he was.

[Jillian]

But then he left it. He was in Del Carad.

[Patrick]

But the idea is that he's hiding out there. Nobody knows where he is, and it's Rose on the binoculars. Who fucking knows who this guy is? Like, I would know Gwyneth Paltrow, you know what I mean?

[Jillian]

It was. Because it was not that long ago. I mean, the John Gotti thing was the biggest story because it took so long to get him.

[Patrick]

Yes.

[Jillian]

And then the way they got him and his best friend Flip, like, it was huge.

[Patrick]

And, like, everyone's pissed off because they helped this guy. They got him out, they got him in witness protection, kept him alive, and now he's back to his life of crime.

[Jillian]

Right. Well, as he tells it. So it's just like, oh, interesting. That his phone. Why is Mike Papa's phone registered to Sammy the Bull's construction company? So. But then two minutes ago, the son was like, I didn't know who Mike Papa was. Like, you guys are just fucking lying.

[Patrick]

Exactly.

[Jillian]

Don't insult me, Karen. Get. So Sammy is here to set the record. He's like, oh, back in the glory days when I was murdering all those people, I never touched the drugs. I could have made millions. I didn't. I killed at least 19 people, but I didn't touch heroin. He wants a medal for that, Sammy. You're not getting his followers. I know.

[Patrick]

What Sammy is trying to say is, I didn't want my son to be in the drug trade, But I wanted him to learn that for himself. I didn't want to, like, beat it up.

[Jillian]

How did Mike Papa's phone get registered to his very legit construction business?

[Patrick]

Exactly. Exactly, exactly. Well, what Sammy is saying is, like, look, you gotta get out. And. And his son Gerard is like, dad, we can get out, but only if we do four more big scores and you need to pay for it.

[Jillian]

And Sammy's like, well, look, I never would have accepted that price back in Staten island. But we're in Phoenix now, Toto. So here I am.

[Patrick]

So he's gonna pay 150k four times over so his son can do the last four big drug scores before he gets out.

[Jillian]

And Sammy wants us to think and believe that he went to his son.

[Mike]

If I fund four deals, four big deals, would you give me your word that you guys would quit? You'd have a pocket full of money, and then come with me in legitimate business? So four deals and then you're done. But I want interest on my money. Like, I would lend it out As a gangster.

[Jillian]

What can I do to help you go legit? Oh, fund all of these things. And at the same time, Sammy's like, you have to pay me back with interest. Cause I'm still Sammy the Bull after all.

[Patrick]

With that. I screamed when I heard that.

[Jillian]

With the guy who.

[Patrick]

With interest.

[Jillian]

With the guy whose cell phone is registered to his very legit construction business. And I just hear Tony Soprano when Meadow's like, dad, are you in the mafia? She's like, you're in waste management. And he's like, it's a stereotype and it's offensive. Like, I like. And I'm like, tony, girl. But that's how I feel. Like, do you want us. Do you really want us to believe that you had this heart to heart, come to Jesus moment, and Sammy the Bull's, like, helping his son get. You guys were in this from day one.

[Patrick]

Totally. And so now they've got all this money. Gerard can go to LA and, like, get in on Sean's guy in LA or whatever. So now they're going to L. A. Which means Sean's got to go get his pills from Amsterdam.

[Jillian]

Sure. The money, like, whatever. Okay, great.

[Patrick]

I believe Sean and the pills are way cheaper in Amsterdam. Way cheaper.

[Jillian]

The money is coming in so fast that English Sean doesn't know how to handle.

[Patrick]

He literally explains with how he launders the money. And I did not understand.

[Jillian]

Yeah, he's just like, opening a bunch of accounts and under fake names and moving the money.

[Patrick]

Exactly. Yes, yes.

[Jillian]

But he says he's like, I have gangster itis. I'm loving this lifestyle. It's like living in a movie. And I'm like, sean, hey, dummy, how do all of those movies end? How does Goodfellas end? Nobody's happy. They're either dead or miserable or in prison. Or in prison. So it's like, Sean, what movie did you watch, sweetheart? Making Blue Eyes, where everyone's happy at the end.

[Patrick]

Right. But no, like, the feds are just following them all around because they want to get Sammy the Bull. They got to be able to connect Sammy the Bull to this so they can get that guy. That's who they really want.

[Jillian]

What's their. Like, wait, Sammy the Bull is exactly. Oh, sh. And that's when they connect. Oh, Mike Papa's phone is registered to one of his four legit businesses, the construction one. And they're like, oh, this is. Come on.

[Patrick]

Right.

[Jillian]

So the Feds wire up Sammy the Bull's office.

[Patrick]

Yes.

[Jillian]

I don't think he's ever done business in that. Like, they're not hearing him conduct any real business.

[Patrick]

He's not building houses in Phoenix.

[Jillian]

And, like, he has four or five legit businesses.

[Patrick]

The pools at the same time, the restaurant. The restaurant was great.

[Jillian]

But you know what? The restaurant's real.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

Because a lot of this is happening at. Or it's just a front. Whatever. How many people are going to Uncle Sal's in Phoen?

[Patrick]

Oh, well, next time we go to Phoenix next year, I'm going, if it's still there, I'm going, if it's still there, I want to go to the building that. Even if it's a Domino's, which would be amazing.

[Jillian]

I mean, probably like a bank.

[Patrick]

Yeah. You're right.

[Jillian]

Like, in the world where I'm, like, wishing for Domino's.

[Patrick]

I know.

[Jillian]

So Sean allegedly is selling 140,000 pills a week compared to Gerard Gravano's 10,000 pills, I'm like, 140,000 a week.

[Patrick]

Sean knows all the gays, so all of them.

[Jillian]

They're his favorite. He's their favorite.

[Patrick]

But, I mean, honestly.

[Jillian]

And Gerard Gravano is like, I knew.

[Mike]

A couple of his dealers, and I called them in. We told him, tell Englishaun, Arizona is ours.

[Jillian]

You hear what the man said?

[Mike]

Every pill he sells from here on out, he needs to pay us 50% on every pill he fucking sells.

[Jillian]

I run Arizona, and he needs to pay us 50% on every single one of his bills. What are you talking about? I know Sean is blowing you out of the water.

[Patrick]

I know, I know. And he's like, you think that he's scared because Sammy the Bull's your dad.

[Jillian]

And it's like this. The entitlement of this asshole. And I promise you, Gerard's like, I'm gonna look so cool in this documentary.

[Patrick]

Well, and so, like. Right, Exactly. And this is where Sean is like, well, I wasn't gonna back down, but I was gonna get some security. So we learn about this guy Wildman.

[Jillian]

Because Sammy the Bull is a serial killer. And he's like, oh, I didn't know he was involved. I need to get Wildman, who's another probable serial killer.

[Patrick]

Yeah, Wildman's like Shawn's friend from growing up. Put a pin in Wild Man. We got more to come back to him about.

[Jillian]

He's described as a maniac.

[Patrick]

I know you got. I mean, like, if you're in this line of work, you are a maniac.

[Jillian]

You. But. And you definitely should have a wild man. I don't want to be anywhere around him, but if you're going to do this, everyone needs a wild man.

[Patrick]

Wild God, bitches. He is such a maniac that we get this story now that one night, Schooly is at Ice Village or whatever selling pills. These two kids bring him into the bathroom to buy pills. Next thing Schooley knows, he's on the ground. He's been robbed. It is.

[Jillian]

By, like, Sammy the people.

[Patrick]

Yes, it's that. So now Wild man that very night, hears about what just happened to their guy, and he says, and I quote, let's go over there right now. Nobody fudgeing. Rips the English off.

[Jillian]

I have to tell you, English, Sean must have been really amazing to work for. And I'm not making A joke. Because everyone is super loyal to him.

[Patrick]

Yes.

[Jillian]

Like, more loyal than the Gravano's ever could be.

[Patrick]

Uh huh.

[Jillian]

Saying. But, oh, they will go on to lecture us about loyalty in just a minute. Fucking hilarious. Yeah, but like, he really. It seems like all of his employees loved him for what it.

[Patrick]

Well, yeah, because four carloads of people get, like, they just get in the car, they follow Wildman to somebody's house. We don't even know whose house it is.

[Jillian]

The Gravano house.

[Patrick]

Is it the Gravano house?

[Jillian]

They like, ambushed the house.

[Mike]

Charging into this house, guns drawn. And I can hit Wild man yelling, don't fucking move.

[Patrick]

We went through every room and took.

[Mike]

Everything out of that house. PlayStations, VCRs, TVs, shoes.

[Patrick]

I mean, if it was worth $5, it came out of that house and in somebody's car.

[Mike]

We cleaned that house out, didn't get.

[Patrick]

The drugs back, but we got everything they owned. They're stealing everything they can find. They're smashing all the windows.

[Jillian]

But now it's war.

[Patrick]

Yes.

[Jillian]

Because the Gravados are like, not on my watch. Like, we need to fight. I'm like, need. Okay, whatever. So the whole thing is a bad scene. Like, lots of violence, high stakes, lots of money, lots of drugs. Everyone is ready to commit murder. Even English Sean's like, I'll kill whoever I have to.

[Patrick]

Yeah. I mean, we get the story that Gerard finds out that Sean's at this called Crowbar one night, he goes there to kill him. He can't find him. Like, it's just. It's gotta end soon, right?

[Jillian]

I think Lashon was making $500,000 a year and decided that it wasn't good enough. So now he chose this life. Like, choices were made.

[Patrick]

I mean, is it worth it?

[Jillian]

No, the.

[Patrick]

It's not worth it.

[Jillian]

Watch Goodfellas all the way to the end.

[Patrick]

Exactly. All the way to the end. Exactly. Exactly.

[Jillian]

So Sammy the Bull is putting hits out now.

[Patrick]

Yes.

[Jillian]

$10,000 for English Sean's head on a.

[Patrick]

Platter, which doesn't sound like enough money.

[Jillian]

No. But I guess you know what I mean. Low level Phoenix, I guess.

[Patrick]

That's ten grand. Put it on a platter. The platter alone's gonna cost a couple hundred bucks.

[Jillian]

Figurative.

[Patrick]

Okay.

[Jillian]

Or. I don't know, I feel like. Sammy, you want me to. You want theater? That's gonna cost you a little bit more, sweetheart. Come on.

[Patrick]

Yeah, dismembering the guy. Put him on your mom's silver platter that she uses for Christmas Eve.

[Jillian]

Sammy. The Bull's like, please, I did this 19 times. At least.

[Patrick]

I know.

[Jillian]

Grow up. And at one point, Sean's like, it just wasn't fun anymore. At this point, it's not fun. And I'm like, at this point, it's not fun. Got it.

[Patrick]

Got it.

[Jillian]

The minute you have to call Wild man.

[Patrick]

Is over.

[Jillian]

Because Wild man only comes when the fun is not fun anymore.

[Patrick]

Truly.

[Jillian]

So meanwhile, in the middle of all of this, shockingly, the Gravano's actually take over the market.

[Patrick]

Yes. But now the feds are on to them, and they're just, like, literally following them around parking lot to parking lot to get all of the transactions on video, right? So they can connect Sammy the Bull because he's the one they want to get.

[Jillian]

Because remember, he is. It's not only like an ego blow to the feds, it's also illegal. Like, it's in violation of whatever deal he struck with the feds.

[Patrick]

Exactly.

[Jillian]

When he ratted out John Gotti. So at point it's like, oh, so not only are you kind of making a fool out of us because we vouched for you in a lot of ways, you're now doing a ton of illegal shit and funding this epidemic of drug use and teenage. Like, there's just a lot of strikes against.

[Patrick]

And they're also stupid because they've got the bug in his office.

[Jillian]

They have a wiretap. Mike Papa's on the phone negotiating this deal with the supplier. And he says, everything the feds do.

[Patrick]

These people are so stupid.

[Jillian]

The feds follow Mike Papa to the meeting. They watch the whole thing go down. It's all on video.

[Patrick]

We see it.

[Jillian]

They see Mike Papa and this other guy, and they're like, okay, that's at least two people in the conspiracy. Great.

[Patrick]

We see the guy who's transferring the pills. He gets out of the car. He's looking around like, he could not be any more closer.

[Jillian]

It's my camera. I want the camera to get my full face.

[Patrick]

He's, like, literally doing one of these, like, looking for people looking at him.

[Jillian]

And stopping in case it's out of focus. To get. Give it a minute to get in focus. So they have him from all angles.

[Patrick]

Like, oh, my God.

[Jillian]

So the feds are like, cool, we have two people. Let's see where they go and where they bring us to next. Guess what?

[Mike]

After the meeting, we continually tracked Mike Papa. We were hoping that he would go back to where Sammy Gravano was.

[Patrick]

And that's exactly what he did. We knew he had the red duffel bag with the pills. And we saw him go into Marathon Construction.

[Jillian]

Mike Papa brings the drugs into one of Sammy's many legit businesses, the pool one. The construction business, where Mike Papa's phone was registered.

[Patrick]

Can you imagine this?

[Jillian]

Talk about a silver platter, where you.

[Patrick]

Show up and you actually want a pool and you're like, hey, Mr. Gravano.

[Jillian]

And they're like, we're closed. Like, it's 11 o' clock on a Tuesday.

[Patrick]

People want pools.

[Jillian]

I mean, like, we need pools there.

[Patrick]

We do. Definitely. It's hot there.

[Jillian]

It's very hot. I know it's a dry heat, but.

[Patrick]

Hi, Phoenix fam. I love you guys.

[Jillian]

Hi. But this also means, though, that Sammy did not like. It's proof that Sammy did not get into the business when he claims he did.

[Patrick]

Right.

[Jillian]

Why else would this guy's phone be registered?

[Patrick]

Right?

[Jillian]

Come on.

[Patrick]

No, they got him. They got him. They got them all. They've got Sammy, they've got the wife, they've got the daughter.

[Jillian]

But it's also a provable lie. Sammy the Bull talking into a camera. What are you saying?

[Patrick]

You just. They never think they're ever going to get caught or. Or they're making the calculation like, we're just going to run this out as long as we can.

[Jillian]

Right. And like, they believe they're bul. Because it's been decades of this. Yes. So they have Sammy the Bull on the phone. He's arguing with his ex wife about the money.

[Patrick]

Oh, my God.

[Jillian]

And so he. This is so perfect. He miscalculated. What she said.

[Patrick]

Yes.

[Jillian]

And he calls her to complain, and she's like, what? And he's like, it's wrong. And she's like, it's not. Count it again.

[Patrick]

And this is the only time we hear that she's the ex wife. That's the only time it comes up.

[Jillian]

But the thing is, she counted the money, right? Sammy made the mistake.

[Patrick]

Yes.

[Jillian]

So. But the fact that. That he made a mistake led to this phone call that implicates everyone.

[Patrick]

Exactly.

[Jillian]

And he was wrong all along.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

She's like, count it again, girl. It's all there.

[Patrick]

They're all just so fudgeing stupid.

[Jillian]

The feds could hear the money counter machine.

[Patrick]

Exactly. We hear it in the recording. It's hilarious.

[Jillian]

Idiots. 24 hours later, the SWAT team comes busting in the door.

[Patrick]

Oh, my God. He's in his underpants, sitting with his dog on the bed.

[Jillian]

I mean, the poor dog did nothing wrong.

[Patrick]

I know that poor dogs happen to bad people. Yes.

[Jillian]

So they arrest him and his entire family. Deborah, the ex, Gerard, Karen.

[Patrick]

I imagine she's like, I left this piece of shit. Why am I here?

[Jillian]

Well, I don't know, girl. Why are you counting his money then?

[Patrick]

And why are you sending him the 70 grand?

[Jillian]

Give me a break.

[Patrick]

I know.

[Jillian]

So they charge him with one count of conspiracy to distribute dangerous drugs. Ecstasy.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

And Sammy says one word. Lawyer. Because Sammy knows.

[Patrick]

Of course.

[Jillian]

So Karen is fine because she had no priors. They basically got her on, like, talking about this on the phone, whatever that charge is called in real life. Gerard is not fine.

[Patrick]

No. He says he's looking at up to 40 years.

[Jillian]

And the FBI is pissed.

[Patrick]

Yes. But see, the. The local cops want Gerard. They want him to get the 40 years. But the FBI comes in and they take over because, like you said, he made them look bad. Because they vouch for him. He's the one they want. They want him to take a 20 year sentence in exchange for giving his family, like, less.

[Jillian]

Right. So Mike Papa. The cops sit him down and they're.

[Patrick]

Like, girl, we see the interview.

[Jillian]

Not only do we have everything.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

Not only are you. You going down for this. Your mother is getting arrested, too. And with that, Mike Papa flips like the good Italian boy he is.

[Patrick]

Yes. And everyone's freaking out because they're like. And they're probably right. The Gravanos are all saying he knew.

[Mike]

He was going to do that. The day he met me in that restaurant, Uncle Sals, when he introduced himself to me and I agreed to go out with him, he already knew he was going to do that. He had his mind made up. He had to get out of the jail free card, and he was going to betray me no matter what.

[Patrick]

I'll tell what I know, and I'll get nothing. And we are going to learn in a minute, too, that this whole time frame is six months.

[Jillian]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

It feels like it was 10 years. It was six months.

[Jillian]

I know. But the thing is, like, obviously that was a tactic. What the cops were saying to Mike Papa. Oh, we're going to like, they knew what was going to make this Italian boy from Long island flip.

[Patrick]

Yeah. And they show the video of the interview to Sammy. Sammy is losing his mind. He goes, I'm 77 years old. If I could get out of this chair, I would break it over his head.

[Jillian]

Now this is when Sammy. I mean, I don't know how long he's been talking to the documentary crew.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

But he starts not caring even more because he says something insane. Because the cop saying that to Mike Papa, we know was a tactic, obviously, right. Who knows if it was even true? But Sammy the Bull looks at the documentary camera and says, I'd like to sit in front of that cop who made. Who like, lied to Mike Papa to get him to flip. Says, I'd like to sit in front of that cop with my.357 Magnum and say, you want to cooperate with me now before I pulled the trigger? He'll be number 20. Like as in I've already killed nine people. 19 people.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

Happy to admit it. And now I'm going to kill a cop to make it an even 20.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

And he is just. I was like, I know, I know.

[Patrick]

I mean, yeah, I mean it's, it's. I mean, at this point in the documentary, Sammy's losing his mind.

[Jillian]

Losing his mind.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

Because. And, and like that's when like there's.

[Patrick]

A reason they didn't let him tell the story until now.

[Jillian]

But like he's been telling it. Like when I was on YouTube today, seeing all these clips of him explaining details of how they came up with how they were going to kill Paul Castellano. And he just says it. He's like, well, we weren't going to kill him at home, cuz the rules. So we knew, like. And I'm like, oh my God.

[Patrick]

Wow.

[Jillian]

You're telling all these. Like, the tea is scalding, by the way.

[Patrick]

I know.

[Jillian]

How are you still like, I don't under. And all these mob guys are doing it. They have podcasts. It is wild.

[Patrick]

It is. Absolutely. Because even a couple years ago when we, when we would do a mob thing, you. I remember one time, you're like, be careful, girl. Cuz I was like going in on this mob guy. Like, girl, be careful. Careful what you say.

[Jillian]

Like now I still stand by that. With the cartel.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

What cartel? Don't say a word. Yeah, but now all these guys are like just happy to report.

[Patrick]

Like, I know it's kind of crazy. It's wild.

[Jillian]

But now, like now Sammy is. Because Sammy's like, look, back in New York. And I'm like, I know back in New York, when you flip, it's cause you got slapped around a little bit. Like this kid flipped right away. Now Sammy's giving notes on how to flip. The fact that the Gravanos have anything to say about this kid doing whatever he can to save himself is absolutely ridiculous.

[Patrick]

Absolutely.

[Jillian]

Because Karen's like, oh, no, no, he's not a rat, he's a snake.

[Patrick]

Yes.

[Jillian]

And Sammy Goes, my son treated him like a brother. And I'm like, how did John Gotti treat you, Sammy? Now, I am not condoning a single thing that these murderers did. It's all bad. It's all illegal. It's not glamorous. I'm not romanticizing it. But, like, do you hear yourself right?

[Patrick]

100%.

[Jillian]

That's my question throughout this whole thing.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

My final question. Do you hear yourself?

[Patrick]

No. But you know what? That is so typical of a documentary like Karen Reid. Do you hear yourself? Do you hear yourself? Whenever the person at the center of the controversy is at the center of the documentary, they never hear themselves, right?

[Jillian]

And Sammy's like, actually, I'm glad you asked. Because then he tells this story about. He was like, well, actually, John Gotti was the real rat.

[Patrick]

Oh, yeah.

[Mike]

Because apparently I cooperated because John Gotti did something that was a rat move. His defense was trying to say that I was killing everybody and taking over everything. So the theory was I would go away and he would go free. In my mind, I said, then fuck you. Fuck the Mafia, and I'm leaving and I'm gonna switch sides.

[Jillian]

So, like, Sammy was the only killer. John Gotti didn't do anything. Sammy was trying to take over, so John Gotti should go free again. And that's when Sammy was like, oh, fuck Gotti. Fuck the Mafia. I'm flipping to save myself.

[Patrick]

Yeah, girl.

[Jillian]

Like, I'm sure maybe some of that is true.

[Patrick]

Well, but. But now Sammy wants to be a martyr again. Because he's saying his lawyers tell him he can beat this. He probably could. He said, but they'll bury my son and my wife and my daughter. They want Sammy to take 20 years in exchange for giving everybody else a much later sentence. And he says, I told my lawyer, make the deal.

[Jillian]

So he is trying to say that he had to take all the blame.

[Patrick]

Yes.

[Jillian]

He had to admit to his role in this scheme to save his family.

[Patrick]

Well, because his son is here to also say, my dad had nothing to do with it. It was all me, you know, I.

[Jillian]

Who registered the drug dealer's phone to your legitimate business.

[Patrick]

Right, right.

[Jillian]

That's all I need to hear.

[Patrick]

But also, why did you do that?

[Jillian]

Because they're idiots.

[Patrick]

We're idiots.

[Jillian]

They're idiots. So the deal is Sammy the bull takes 20 years. Karen and the wife go, and Gerard gets a, quote, light sentence of 10 years. Right. And then Sammy the Bull is like, you want to call me a rat? I took 20 years. And I'm like, I mean, yeah, not for this thing, but for the other thing exactly. Like Sam. What? The mental gymnastics and the word salads that we have to sit through are wild for all of them.

[Patrick]

We got to take a quick detour to talk about what's going on, Sean. For two seconds only because we got to meet. Because Sean is so freaked out by this that he completely drops out of sight. He moves into an apartment in Scottsdale, doesn't tell anybody where he lives. But Schooly Wild man and his girlfriend, Wild Woman Woman, remain in Phoenix's drug fueled world. Now we learned that this woman, Wild Woman is insane.

[Jillian]

No, I don't know Wild Woman. Well, I don't.

[Patrick]

As far as we know.

[Jillian]

Well, I don't know her, but it feels very like no one had. Like, if your names are Wild man and Wild Woman, you're both maniacs. Yes, but it's a lot of. Like they're putting a lot of blame on Wild Woman here. As if Wild man wasn't part of the problem.

[Patrick]

Right. Because what they say is that, like, we see her former apartment and she's dealing so much ecstasy out of her apartment. They said there's 300 people a day coming in broad daylight to her apartment to buy ecstasy.

[Jillian]

And meanwhile, like, Wild man led a crew of 200 people to trash the Gravano's house. And everyone was like, that was totally fine. But Wild Woman wasn't subtle at all. And I'm like, are you trying to tell me Wild man, who was described as a maniac five minutes ago, was subtle about anything?

[Patrick]

Well, her big crime is that she's now. Wild Woman is now coming in between Schooly and Sean.

[Jillian]

Well, according to Schooley, she caused a riff between him and English.

[Patrick]

Riff?

[Jillian]

Yeah, yeah, like we're in west side Story.

[Patrick]

But we learn that Schooly is so mad about this and he go, he takes us where he did this. He. He gets a literal firebomb.

[Jillian]

In his infinite wisdom, this is what he decides to do.

[Patrick]

In the broad daylight, middle of the afternoon, he takes a firebomb, walks up to her living room window, throws it through the window into her apartment. And you could just see smoke already coming out, shooting out the window. And you just heard people running and screaming for their lives. They had no idea what the fuck was going on.

[Jillian]

She barely made it out alive.

[Patrick]

I know English, Sean.

[Jillian]

This is why everyone told you not to work with Skooly, but you insisted.

[Patrick]

He'S a little bit. What's the word when you can't control your instincts?

[Jillian]

Impulsive.

[Patrick]

He's a little impulsive this guy. A little impulsive. And just like maybe threw a firebomb into her living room. Like, what?

[Jillian]

And again, I don't know anything about wild women or firebombs or wild man.

[Patrick]

Yes.

[Jillian]

Or any of this for that matter, but it seems a little like you're going to blame the woman in the room.

[Patrick]

I know, I know, I know.

[Jillian]

I could be wrong.

[Patrick]

Well, Schooly gets out of town. He has not seen sean in like 25 years. And I was like, why am I expecting Sean to walk in, like through the door behind him? Like some, like, it's some like, sitcom reunion.

[Jillian]

Yeah. The music comes in. It's a very special episode of the ecstasy drug ran today.

[Patrick]

Totally.

[Jillian]

So, yeah, Schooly's like, maybe that was a bad idea.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

Maybe I shouldn't attack wild woman.

[Patrick]

Oh my God.

[Jillian]

This might come back on me, you know?

[Patrick]

And like, can we just wrap this up?

[Jillian]

Like, this thing ends like seven times.

[Patrick]

I know.

[Jillian]

So in 2002, English Sean gets the SWAT team treatment. His mugshot is hilarious. He's like this.

[Patrick]

It's so British.

[Jillian]

And this happened because Schooly ratted on him.

[Patrick]

I know.

[Jillian]

Schooly portrayed Sean and Wildman. Rats on rats on. This is why you no trust in nobody. Okay? My Sicilian grandfather had it right all over.

[Patrick]

You know, trust in a body.

[Jillian]

Now Schooley has a loyalty tattoo that he stands by to this day. He goes, loyalty. I live by that till the end. And I'm like, no one knows what that word actually means.

[Patrick]

I know.

[Jillian]

So they give us, I don't know, like who. Someone, like took over the last 20 minutes of this documentary.

[Patrick]

I hated this so much.

[Jillian]

But they give us all this on screen text at random times. I just collected it all right here. So, English Sean and Gerard Gravano both received nine year sentences.

[Mike]

And to my shock and surprise, my prison mate was none other than Gerard Gravano. One day, Gerard told me about his plans the night he came looking for me at the Crowbar nightclub. I hadn't realized how close I'd come to death.

[Jillian]

They end up bunking together in prison.

[Patrick]

What? They become buddies in prison? Sorry about that time I almost killed you.

[Jillian]

You take friends wherever you can get them.

[Patrick]

100%.

[Jillian]

So Gerard Gravano served eight years of a nine year sentence. Peter Wildman Mahoney.

[Patrick]

Oh, yeah, we get his name.

[Jillian]

How did I get from Pete Mahoney to Wildman?

[Patrick]

Well, I probably won.

[Jillian]

Gotta be a maniac.

[Patrick]

Ecstasy fueled night.

[Jillian]

I mean, you know, that's it.

[Patrick]

Ye.

[Jillian]

He was sentenced to 12 years. Sammy the Bull served 17 years of a 20 year sentence.

[Patrick]

Like, whoa.

[Jillian]

Schooley wasn't charged with anything.

[Patrick]

I know.

[Jillian]

Loyalty tattoo.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

Did he get the loyalty tattoo before or after we ratted?

[Patrick]

After. No question.

[Jillian]

100% to be like, I did the right thing. Right?

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

Right. Look, I have a tattoo.

[Patrick]

I was loyal to the U.S. government.

[Jillian]

And look, if Sammy the Bull could do it honestly. So 2007, after five years in prison, Shawn is released and deported to the UK by. And then we get all of this.

[Patrick]

Like we're not doing this with the last 15 minutes of documentary. Is Sean with his dad. It's I love you man. I love you man. I love you man. And then we go right to Sammy and Gerard doing the exact same thing. I love you man. Did you try to be a big shot? Because I was a big shot. You don't got to be a big shot because I was a big shot. Shut the fuck up. You killed 19 people.

[Jillian]

I mean, at least.

[Patrick]

Yes.

[Jillian]

And, and, and Gerard tells this horrifying story about Sammy the Bull forcing him to commit animal abuse.

[Patrick]

Oh my God.

[Jillian]

Which we're not going to get into.

[Patrick]

No, but it was the test when he was a little kid about like doing a horrible thing to a bird that Gerard did not do. And he's like, my dad never thought I was man enough for the mafia.

[Mike]

A lot of time I, I was acting because I'm your son, people expect me to do things. Whether is that what this whole ecstasy thing was, the drugs, doesn't matter what people want you to be. Just cuz I had a big name, don't live in my shadows.

[Patrick]

So like I guess that's what you spent your whole life trying to prove your dad that you were a man.

[Jillian]

Right? Like, and then yeah, he. But he could only do it in Phoenix, Arizona.

[Patrick]

Right.

[Jillian]

Which it's no shade to Phoenix. But it's like all these guys keep saying, like, oh, it really felt like a piece of home when M. Papa came in. It's like you guys all planned this.

[Patrick]

Yes. Yes.

[Jillian]

Give me a break. And when Karen goes back on Mob wife, she's like, when I was in Arizona for that time and it was fine. Nothing that was fine.

[Patrick]

Oh my God. And like whatever. Like that's just how it ends. Like it just, it just ends with us hearing that like everybody got big prison sentences that they didn't really serve.

[Jillian]

And because Mike Papa flipped, he had 37 out of his 42 criminal charges dismissed. He served five and a half years. He was put on supervised release.

[Patrick]

His whereabouts, whereabouts today Are unknown.

[Jillian]

Good. I don't care where he is anyway.

[Patrick]

I don't care either. But it doesn't seem like they're killing people anymore, Mike, so you're probably fine, girl.

[Jillian]

I don't know. Maybe what they want you to think.

[Patrick]

Oh, my God, girl. We did Mob Wives.

[Jillian]

We did. Oh, I wish.

[Patrick]

I know. What's it called?

[Jillian]

Sons of Ecstasy. I guess they were trying to do, like, a sense of anarchy thing.

[Patrick]

Yeah, it's still not a word I know how to spell. Don't do ecstasy, you guys, it's too. It's bad for you.

[Jillian]

It's really bad for you.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

Not worth it.

[Patrick]

But do join the Facebook group that's really good for you. For you. It's the true grand obsessed podcast discussion group. Come make new friends. Just hang out in there. It's so much fun to be.

[Jillian]

It's like the ecstasy without the holes in your brain, literally, you know?

[Patrick]

And also join the Patreon. Over 450 full ad free bonus apps. You get them the second you sign up. We've got the after parties here where we've been telling cases that we haven't covered on the regular show. We've got the hero belts here where we send you stuff in the mail sometimes and we make extra bonus episodes for you. It's all really fun.

[Jillian]

And the drag B goes on the entry level. Five dollar level. We're not gay keeping that shit.

[Patrick]

No. And you gotta come. If you've never been to drag bingo. Come, come, come, come, come. And you'll get a. You'll get an email about it. Like, plenty of notice. So just come and be there.

[Jillian]

Yep.

[Patrick]

What do we do next? Girl?

[Jillian]

Oh, my God. Okay. Susan Smith. Someone stole my babies.

[Patrick]

Oh.

[Jillian]

So if you remember, this is the case we mentioned briefly in our sixth bonus episode. It's the Web of Death Body of Evidence episode. So this is two 42 minute episodes. We're gonna do it as one documentary.

[Patrick]

Yes.

[Jillian]

So this story is actually. It's also very, very hard. It's about a woman killing her children. So just take care if you want to watch that first and listen to our app. But we. We, like, skid right by it. In the other episode, she was like, that was my cousin. I was like, what?

[Patrick]

I know. Crazy.

[Jillian]

So we're gonna dive into it.

[Patrick]

All right, well, stay tuned for the trailer for that fam. And we love you.

[Jillian]

We love you.

[Patrick]

All right, bye.

[Jillian]

Bye. Don't do drugs.

[Patrick]

Don't do drugs.

[Jillian]

You can, like, do THC, but not anything else.

[Patrick]

That's it. Okay, great. Jillian has spoken.

[Jillian]

And don't do caffeine. I just learned there's not one minute that goes by that I don't think about these boys. And I pray that whoever has them.

[Patrick]

That the Lord would let them realize.

[Jillian]

That they are missed and loved more.

[Patrick]

Than any children in this world. We just got to get them home.

[Jillian]

Union County 911 operators received a frantic call reporting that kidnapping of two small boys.

[Patrick]

Yes, ma', am.

[Mike]

There's a lady that come up doctor and she some guy jumped into a.

[Patrick]

Red light with her car with her two kids in it. The 911 phone call described this young.

[Jillian]

Wife and mother, Susan Smith. And she says that she's been carjacked and that her two children, a 3 year old named Michael and a 14 month old named Alex, who are strapped in their car seats in the back of the car. So it's not just a carjacking. Is this a kidnapping?

[Patrick]

Oh. How are you feeling?

[Jillian]

Oh, like crazy.

[Patrick]

I know.

[Jillian]

Like there is really a crazy. I apologize. I will never do this again, but.

[Patrick]

Are you kidding? This is hilarious. Do it every time. Sam.