447: Susan Smith: Someone Stole My Babies (from "How It Really Happened")

Summary

Podcast Summary: True Crime Obsessed - Episode 447: Susan Smith: Someone Stole My Babies (from "How It Really Happened")

Release Date: August 12, 2025
Title: Susan Smith: Someone Stole My Babies
Podcast: True Crime Obsessed
Hosts: Jillian Mazavali, Patrick Hines, Sasha, and Mark Klass

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Introduction

In Episode 447 of True Crime Obsessed, titled "Susan Smith: Someone Stole My Babies," the hosts delve into the harrowing case of Susan Smith, a woman accused of orchestrating the kidnapping and murder of her two young sons. Through a combination of documentary analysis, expert insights, and emotional testimonies, the episode unpacks the complexities and dark truths surrounding this infamous true crime story.

The Carjacking Incident

The episode begins with a dramatic recounting of the night of October 25, 1994, at [33:07] when Susan Smith reported a terrifying carjacking in Union County, South Carolina. According to Susan, at a red light, a black man forcefully entered her vehicle, brandishing a gun, and drove off with her two children, Michael (3 years old) and Alex (14 months old.

Notable Quote:
[04:26] Cynthia Barnes: "The 911 phone call described this young wife and mother, Susan Smith, saying she was carjacked and her two children were strapped in their car seats in the back of the car."

Immediate Aftermath and Search Efforts

Following the abduction, Susan's neighbor promptly called the police, prompting an extensive search operation. Over the next few days, authorities deployed helicopters, search dogs, and dive teams to scour nearby areas, particularly John delong Lake, where the car allegedly ended up.

Notable Quote:
[13:15] Jillian Mazavali: "People are on foot. The helicopters, the dogs are here, the dive team is there."

David Smith's Testimony

Susan's husband, David Smith, emerges as a central figure in the narrative. Described as a devoted and heroic father, David is seen driving to the scene upon hearing Susan's distress call. His unwavering support and emotional turmoil are highlighted throughout the episode.

Notable Quote:
[05:16] David Smith: "There's not one minute that goes by that I don't think about these boys. And I pray that whoever has them, that the Lord will let them realize that they are missed and loved more than any children in this world. We just got to get them home."

Investigative Doubts and Inconsistencies

As the investigation unfolds, multiple inconsistencies in Susan's account raise suspicions among law enforcement. Initially claiming she was going to visit a friend, Susan later alters her story to say she was at Walmart—an assertion that, in a close-knit community, went unverified.

Notable Quote:
[34:10] Jillian Mazavali: "She was saying, no, there was no other car around—a major problem for her story."

Polygraph Tests and Forensic Analysis

Expert forensic artist Roy Pascal plays a pivotal role in analyzing Susan's behavior. He observes that Susan exhibited "scrunch crying," a form of false crying without actual tears, signaling potential deceit. Additionally, polygraph tests reveal Susan's responses as deceptive, further undermining her credibility.

Notable Quotes:
[17:43] Roy Pascal: "There's nowhere in that hierarchy do you see taking children. This is not adding up."
[37:11] Patrick Hines: "She failed all three tests."

Motive: Affair and Breakdown of Marriage

The episode delves into the tumultuous relationship between Susan and David Smith. Their marriage, characterized by constant breakups and infidelity, deteriorates further when Susan engages in an affair with Tom Finley, the son of a wealthy local businessman. Tom's subsequent breakup letter to Susan, referencing her children as an impediment, is presented as a potential motive for the tragic events that followed.

Notable Quote:
[56:24] Patrick Hines: "She wrote, 'Susan, I could really fall for you, but there are some things about you that aren't suited for me. And, yes, I am speaking about your children.'"

The Trial and Conviction

Despite her initial resistance, Susan is eventually confronted with mounting evidence and inconsistencies in her narrative. After nine grueling days of investigation, she is arrested and brought to trial. The courtroom drama parallels high-profile cases like O.J. Simpson's, though without the same media saturation.

During the trial, Susan never takes the stand, and her confession details the deliberate act of letting her car—a 1990 burgundy Mazda Protege—roll into John delong Lake, resulting in the deaths of her sons. The prosecution dismantles her defenses, refuting claims of suicide motives and highlighting the calculated nature of the murders.

Notable Quote:
[50:46] Roy Pascal: "She signed a confession saying she strapped the boys into their car seats and let the vehicle roll into a lake."

Aftermath: David's Grief and Remarriage

David Smith emerges from the ordeal as a pillar of strength and resilience. Despite immense grief, he channels his pain into advocacy, supporting other families dealing with similar tragedies. The episode touches on his remarriage and the birth of his new children, underscoring his journey toward healing.

Notable Quote:
[25:25] Patrick Hines: "David, be my dad. Thank you so much."

Susan Smith's Incarceration and Parole Eligibility

Susan Smith is sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole, a decision met with unanimous relief from the community and advocacy from David and his new family. The episode highlights ongoing concerns about her potential parole eligibility in November 2024, guarded by testimonies from prison guards who vouch against her release.

Notable Quote:
[60:06] Patrick Hines: "She killed two children brutally. She's tortured and murdered... she didn't get life without parole. Who are we still saving that for?"

Conclusion

Episode 447 of True Crime Obsessed meticulously unpacks the Susan Smith case, blending factual recounting with critical analysis of investigative flaws and psychological profiles. The hosts challenge the narrative presented by Susan, emphasizing the importance of scrutinizing evidence and understanding the underlying motives behind such crimes. Through emotional testimonies and expert insights, the episode provides listeners with a comprehensive understanding of one of true crime's most disturbing cases.

Ending Note:
The episode concludes with reflections on the enduring impact of the tragedy on the community and the steadfast resolve of David Smith to honor his sons' memories by aiding other grieving families.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• [05:16] David Smith: "There's not one minute that goes by that I don't think about these boys."
• [17:43] Roy Pascal: "This is not adding up."
• [37:11] Patrick Hines: "She failed all three tests."
• [56:24] Patrick Hines: "She wrote, 'Susan, I could really fall for you, but there are some things about you that aren't suited for me.'"
• [60:06] Patrick Hines: "She killed two children brutally. She's tortured and murdered."
• [25:25] Patrick Hines: "David, be my dad. Thank you so much."

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Final Thoughts:

This episode serves as a poignant reminder of the depths of human despair and the lengths to which individuals may go under intense emotional strain. True Crime Obsessed delivers a compelling narrative that challenges listeners to question, analyze, and seek the truth behind the headlines.

Transcript

[Jillian Mazavali]

You want to hear a throwback?

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my God.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Always. We don't talk about Bruno in my head.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my God.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Remember when that was the biggest thing ever?

[Patrick Hines]

It was the only song Daisy listened to for, like, a year. And in Spanish. She loved it in Spanish.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah. Because I got sent an early copy of a. Like, an authorized biography of Lin Manuel Miranda.

[Sasha]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jillian Mazavali]

The education of an artist is excellent. But I'm in the encanto part right now.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my God. Right now, we don't talk about Bruno.

[Jillian Mazavali]

So I was like, you know what? I'll take it. This is a shit story we're about to tell.

[Patrick Hines]

I know. I take a little bit of Bruno. Hi. Jillian Mazavali.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Hello. Patrick Hines.

[Patrick Hines]

You know what is not shit? Our book club. Our book club is so amazing. We've got, like, 600 people in it. Sasha moderates it, does the whole thing every month. You can get all of the information for the book club on the website. It's truecrimeobsess.com.

[Jillian Mazavali]

We also have a Patreon in case anyone's interested. Me, too.

[Patrick Hines]

Tell them everything.

[Jillian Mazavali]

We. Well, I can tell them everything. It's got, like, a zillion episodes, but this is where you get the ad free version of these episodes. Also, depending on your tier, we give you bonus episodes. So that's where you get, like, the series that have multiple episodes, like Karen Reid.

[Patrick Hines]

Karen Reid. And the old Lacy Peterson ones.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And hey, Beautiful.

[Patrick Hines]

Hey, Beautiful. And the staircase and cereal from back in the day.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah. We also make episodes just for you, whether they be old Unsolved Mysteries episodes or episodes of Mob Wives that we just decided we're gonna do.

[Patrick Hines]

And, like, at the Hero builds here, we send you stuff in the mail. So, like, you get, you know, the Christmas calendar and the pride gift every. We're sending out coasters, like, specially made coasters just for them.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And also at the $5 level. Drag bingo with Schwab. Yes. Every month.

[Patrick Hines]

Drag Bingo.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Every month.

[Patrick Hines]

It's patreon.com truecrimeobsess or you can just click the link in the show notes here. That' what are we talking about today, girl?

[Jillian Mazavali]

Okay. Susan Smith. Someone stole my babies. This is on Discovery. This is two episodes, but we're doing it in one.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[David Smith]

There's not one minute that goes by that I don't think about these boys. And I pray that whoever has them, that the Lord will let them realize that they are missed and loved more than any children in this world. We just got to get them home.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Union County 911 operators received a frantic call reporting the kidnapping of two small boys. Yes, ma', am, there's a lady that come up that door and she. Some guy jumped into a red light.

[Patrick Hines]

With her car with her two kids in it.

[Cynthia Barnes]

The 911 phone call described this young wife and mother, Susan Smith. And she says that she's been carjacked and that her two children, a 3 year old named Michael and a 14 month old named Alex, were strapped in their car seats in the back of the car. So it's not just a carjacking, it's a kick kidnapping.

[Jillian Mazavali]

So this came up in one of our bonus episodes.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Web of Death, episode six. One of our heroes in that episode is related to Susan Smith. Susan Smith is her cousin.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And she goes, if you remember, she's like. This is what made me start sleuthing.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Which reminded me of. Do these three words mean anything to you?

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, God.

[Jillian Mazavali]

New boot goofin?

[Sasha]

No.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Do you know new boot goofin? No. You might.

[Patrick Hines]

I barely know. Get up, Karen. I'm still catching.

[Jillian Mazavali]

New boot goofin predates that.

[Patrick Hines]

Okay.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Lieutenant Dangle, Reno911.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, Thomas Lennon in the show. Okay.

[Sasha]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jillian Mazavali]

He is so proud of his new cowboy boots. He jumps out and he's like, genuine ostrich. Three payments. And then he's like, oh, what? What? And he goes, I'm just goofing. New boot goofing. And it made Ashley and I love it. It's so, so good. Wait, what? New boot goofing. It's the best. So when I, I was like, wait, like I just like watched a clip of that Web of Death episode and she goes, it's what made her start sleuthing. I went right to new boot goofing.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. I gotta tell you, like, this is gonna mean nothing to you. You have met her. There are times you remind me so, so much of my best friend from high school. Her name is aj.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And sometimes, like the way, like the way that you just told that story, like, is exactly how she would tell a story. So good.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Love.

[Patrick Hines]

Hi, aj.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Hey, aj. Hope you love your new boots. Go. New boot goofing.

[Patrick Hines]

New boots goofing.

[Jillian Mazavali]

New boot goofing.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, all right. We gotta take it down.

[Jillian Mazavali]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

It's Tuesday, October 25th, 1994. We're in Union, South Carolina. It's 9:12pm 911 gets a horrifying call from a man who has just had a woman knock on her door, basically saying that it's 9:12 in the night. She was Just carjacked and babies were in the back of the car and they are gone.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah. So this woman is Susan Smith, and she's looking for her two young boys. The neighbor says, like Susan Smith said. So, like, this is the neighbor telling the story on the 911 call?

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Susan Smith told the neighbor she was sitting at a red light.

[David Smith]

Out of nowhere, this black guy came up and just opened the door and jumped in the car. And he had a gun, and he had it pointed in my side and told me to drive. And so I did. And when I tried to ask him why he was doing this, whatever, he just told me, shut up or he killed me.

[Jillian Mazavali]

A black man jumped into her car, stole her children. Michael, who's three years old, and Alex, who's 14 months old.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And the guy had to take them out of their car seats. Take the two presumably screaming children.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Jillian Mazavali]

From again, they're presumably screaming mother out of the car in the middle of the street. And I'm sorry, that immediately makes me go, what? Yeah, like, if you heard that story, I feel like it would immediately.

[Patrick Hines]

Wait, I missed that. He said that the kidnapper took the babies out of the car seats and did what?

[Jillian Mazavali]

Would that had to, like, take them, remove them out of the car. Like, wouldn't you see? Wouldn't it just be three people screaming, Susan Smith and her two young children.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Jillian Mazavali]

So the story. What I'm saying is this story immediately should make you go, wait. What?

[Patrick Hines]

Wait.

[Sasha]

Well, yeah, like if you were to.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Hear this story, if someone was telling you the story. Yeah, I feel like I'd say, well, wait, can you start over? I'm start over. Wait, wait, wait. What?

[Patrick Hines]

Because it just gets crazier from here.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Right. So Susan. So this happens. Susan runs to the nearest house, hysterical, of course, tells them what happened and they call the police, Right?

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

So now we meet David Smith, who was Susan's husband and the father of the boys. This man is an absolute fucking hero.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And he's here today. He's here.

[Patrick Hines]

He's with us. I. I love this man.

[Jillian Mazavali]

I love hell and back.

[Patrick Hines]

Literally hell and back.

[Jillian Mazavali]

So he is here to tell us what happened in that moment, like, as. As he knows it. So he gets wind of this, he.

[Patrick Hines]

Gets to call it work.

[Jillian Mazavali]

So he's a wreck. He's driving to Susan, he says a drive that should have taken him 30 minutes, took him like 10. He's like, just a booking it to Sue.

[Patrick Hines]

And he says as soon as he gets to the neighbor's house where Susan still is, she Just collapses in his arms. Ken, as a parent, I cannot imagine. I absolutely. I cannot imagine.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah. Even as like not a parent, I cannot imagine. It is so unbelievable. And to have David here walking us through this tragedy with him, it's unbelievable. Travel down the road. Back again, girl.

[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian Mazavali]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah, because you're still taking a medicine like hello, yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And you're going to have questions. I had so many questions.

[Jillian Mazavali]

So weight loss by hers is realistic, not restrictive and affordable.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Jillian Mazavali]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian Mazavali]

That'S F O R H E R S.com TCO for your personalized weight loss treatment options. Forhers.com TCO weight loss by hers is not available everywhere. Compounded products are not approved or reviewed for safety, effectiveness or quality by the fda. Prescript required. See website for full details, important safety information and restrictions. Actual price depends on product and plan purchased. So Cynthia Barnes is a reporter. She does an interview with Susan David.

[Patrick Hines]

And this is the first interview we ever see. And this is where I think she identifies the carjacker as a black man for the first time. Says he has a gun. He pointed the gun at her, according to Susan, told her to drive. She asked why he was doing it. He tells her to shut up, just keep driving.

[Mark Klass]

He directed Susan to go down the road that leads out to John delong Lake. And that's when he made her get out of the car.

[David Smith]

And he told me, get out. And I said, well, can I get my children? And he said, no.

[Jillian Mazavali]

He said.

[David Smith]

He said, I don't have time for that.

[Patrick Hines]

He says, no, I don't have time for that, and takes off with the kids in the back of the car. So immediately, I would be dead if this were true. I would be. There's just no question. He would just have to shoot me.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah. My questions, however, are immediately. I'm like, if all. All you want is the car and you don't have any time, you definitely don't have time to deal with two screaming children who are gonna be a major hassle and probably get you a lot of attention.

[Patrick Hines]

And by the way, carjacker, you've got all the time in the world. You've just turned down a road that nobody knows where you are. Nobody knows this woman is missing.

[Jillian Mazavali]

No one's around.

[Patrick Hines]

Clearly, this is pre cell phones. And as we're gonna be told down the road that, like carjackers, this happens often enough that we know that carjackers, when they learn that there are children in the car, immediately abandon the car because they don't wanna be arrested for kidnapping.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Right. And also, like, who. If all he wants is the car, Take your kids, take your immediately, Lady, I don't need this shit.

[Patrick Hines]

Otherwise, it feels like a targeted attack to kidnap the children.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

You know what I mean? But we are told this is a carjacking.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And to your point, like, clearly, I.

[Patrick Hines]

Mean, there's no spoil. We all know this is not what happened. There's no spoilers. Everyone knows.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah, we're just yelling at Susan.

[Patrick Hines]

Actually. We're trying to take the listener on a journey we don't need to.

[Jillian Mazavali]

We know. We told you about this in the bonus episode. We told you she was full of shit.

[Sasha]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jillian Mazavali]

So the cops are called. There's an APB out for the car. It's a 1990 burgundy Mazda Protege, whatever that means.

[Patrick Hines]

I was like, okay, whatever word.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Like, no one saw anything.

[Patrick Hines]

What's one of these names for cars? Protege? Taurus.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah. Impala. Isn't there an impala?

[Patrick Hines]

Totally DeLorean.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Buick.

[Patrick Hines]

Where do they come up with these names?

[Jillian Mazavali]

I have no idea. No one saw anything. No one heard anything. There are no leads, but David and Susan are on the news almost immediately begging for help.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, we also learned that, like, this guy didn't ask for any money. He didn't hurt her. He didn't. Like, he said he wouldn't harm the kids. Like, what is. Like, what is going on here?

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah, good. Lots of good questions.

[Patrick Hines]

Honestly, the cops were told we spent.

[Roy]

Most of the night trying to run down. Did anybody see anything whatsoever out of the ordinary? Nobody had seen anything. Nobody heard anything.

[Patrick Hines]

Nobody saw anything. It's almost as though this didn't happen.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Almost. Or definitely. But, like, to your point from earlier, you had all the time in the world, buddy. Because clearly you're on a stretch of road where literally no one else is there, right? No one is hearing three people screaming for their lives. The two kids and her. Like, you have all the time in the world, buddy.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly. Literally, you've got all the time in the world. And so now. And I'm so glad that we addressed this eventually, because I wasn't sure that we were going to. We see Susan giving these, like, these new. I'm heartsick. I'm heartbroken. I just see my babies back. She is sobbing. There are no tears.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Zero.

[Patrick Hines]

And no one is saying anything about it.

[Jillian Mazavali]

No.

[Patrick Hines]

Where are the tears, girl?

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah. It's very, like. Because you know why? Because you can't.

[Patrick Hines]

Because you can't.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Because there's a mom crying about kids.

[Patrick Hines]

And the kids are.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And.

[Patrick Hines]

And. And why would she be making this up every. There's no reason not to believe her.

[Jillian Mazavali]

She's also in a rural South Carolina. So the racism. She's really using the racism to her advantage here. So, speaking of, they do a sketch of this kidnapper.

[Patrick Hines]

We need Roy. I gotta say, Roy gets real involved. Like, Roy takes a lot of liberties in, like, having a lot of opinions and giving them all to the guy. He's right about everything. But, like, for some reason. Is Roy a cop? I don't know. But he's here to do the sketch.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah. So the kidnapper allegedly is a black male, 20s or 30s. They describe him as wearing a blue stocking cap, but it's just a beanie, a plaid shirt, blue jeans. The sketch is only the, quote, man's profile, right? Like, not even straight on. Last seen in Susan's car. And I'm like, oh, so last seen by Susan.

[Patrick Hines]

Right, Exactly.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Who's telling us the story?

[Patrick Hines]

Last seen and only seen by Susan.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Real talk about, like, setting us all back. Us meaning, like, people, victims, women.

[Patrick Hines]

But Also, this was 1994. Like, it's not as though we've solved racism today, but this was, like, nearly 30 years ago. Like, that. You know, people could say things like this back then, right?

[Jillian Mazavali]

And, like, everything I'm saying is also dripping with sarcasm. Which would never come through my voice in almost any other story. But sometimes bitches lie. And now we're dealing with it, truly.

[Sasha]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jillian Mazavali]

You know what I mean? I'd be like, oh, last seen by Susan. Really? Like, when on earth would I ever.

[Patrick Hines]

Say that women are almost maybe never the perpetrators in these stories?

[Jillian Mazavali]

And sometimes they are, and this is one of them.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Jillian Mazavali]

So Thursday, October 27, 1994. Day two of the search.

[Patrick Hines]

Everybody was looking for the kids. We had people sweeping through the woods.

[Roy]

You know, everybody 10ft from everybody else. Some of our helicopters would be up there every day in circle looking. And the Department of Natural Resource had the dive team.

[Jillian Mazavali]

People are on foot. The helicopters, the dogs are here, the dive team is there.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Because this road was right by the lake.

[Patrick Hines]

They really are pulling out all the stops, which really is gonna. Like, at the end of this, when we really talk about, like, the waste of resources and money and time and, like, what else could these cops have been doing during this time? You know what I mean?

[Jillian Mazavali]

Well, because the goal is that everyone wants these two little boys found safely. Because if he said, like, no, I won't hurt the kids. I don't have time to give them to you. Like, he probably dumped them somewhere. He probably, like, put them somewhere because all he wanted was the car.

[Patrick Hines]

Are they on the side of the road somewhere? We gotta find them.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Exactly.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Jillian Mazavali]

So. But tips are coming in. The car's been spotted. The kids have been spotted. Evidence is supposedly being found.

[Patrick Hines]

I just want to say, too, that they. They get divers in that lake, the John D. Long Lake, and they describe it as Black Bottom. Meaning you can't see 6 inches in front of you.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

You know my phobia about, like, deep water. I cannot imagine anything more terrifying than being in a lake as a diver and not being able to see anything.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Not knowing what you're feeling, not knowing. I mean, a lake, it's probably just like, snakes and eels and fish.

[Patrick Hines]

That's, like, almost worse than the monsters I'm sure live at the bottom of the ocean.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Look, the Ocean is, what, 90? Every time I say it, it's a different number, but a lot like, we don't know a massive majority of it. Like, we haven't explored, like, 96.

[Patrick Hines]

They can have it. I don't need to know anymore. I think we know all we need to know.

[Jillian Mazavali]

If we haven't learned to respect the ocean by now, I know we're never gonna learn.

[Patrick Hines]

Put it on the list.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Let me tell you something. I. Obviously, because I'M not a monster. Watch Jaws over July 4th, of course, 50th anniversary. I have, like, a lot of notes for that movie. First of all, I was defending Jaws left, right, and center. I was like, jaws did nothing wrong.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Jillian Mazavali]

We're in Jaws home, their living room, like, whatever. Of course, the mayor is ridiculous. But then they kill Jaws. Spoiler. They kill Jaws at the end.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And I'm like, but you know why they do it? I'm like, I see you, Spielberg. Because they made Jaws almost supernatural. Like, he's going back for the boat. He's really attacked. And I'm like, oh. Jaws is, like, way more aware.

[Patrick Hines]

Jaws is pissed. But, like, Jaws has come to fruition on Cape Cod. Like, literally, you can't go in the ocean. There are great white sharks everywhere.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Well, Jaws is. Sharks are prehistoric. They've been here first. They were here first.

[Patrick Hines]

We brought them to shore. The whole thing is that there was, like, that preservation conservation act of 1978 that brought back the gray seals, and seals are what sharks eat. So that's why they're coming to. And it's like, it's awful. It is their home. But we used to enjoy it.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

You know what I mean? They used to share with us.

[Jillian Mazavali]

I don't get. Also the mayor. This one thing that really stuck out. Sorry. This is a Jaws podcast now.

[Patrick Hines]

We need a minute.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Like, we do. The mayor, like, wants everyone to come. Obviously, you know the story. Like, there were a lot of mayor memes during, like, right at the beginning of lockdown, because he was just like, everything's fine. Everyone's still coming anyway. Like, just an asshole, like, moron idiot. Wonder who he reminded us all of. But at one point, like, like, the beach is still full, right? And he's literally walking up to people being like, go in the water. I'm like, everyone still showed up to your little beach town. Must stay.

[Patrick Hines]

Go in the water. I know, I know. Everyone's there.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And he's like, go, go, go, go, go, go. So I felt very bad for Jaws and then realized, like, no, this is part of the family.

[Patrick Hines]

Do you know how many people, when I do my live shows, are conspiring to get you on a party barge? Like, literally, simply, everybody is.

[Jillian Mazavali]

I know also, my mom, that was one of the movies they saw in the movie theater. My parents, my mom was going jumping. Like, it's not one of the most famous movies of all time. Jumping as if going to get her in the living room. And then at one point, in the most typical barber way, she goes, that baby's 50 now.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, they're all dead.

[Jillian Mazavali]

I was like, mom, 53. The kid was like a toddler. Well, so many of my friends, I can't take it. That kid's 50 now.

[Patrick Hines]

Ton of my friends, like 10 of my friends, were literally extras in Jaws, cuz they filmed it on Cape Cod right where I grew up.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Oh, my God.

[Patrick Hines]

We got to get back to this horrible story. Okay.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Sorry.

[Patrick Hines]

No, it's great. I. I love that detour.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Thanks. So the police are focusing on the black community because Susan said this was a black man.

[Patrick Hines]

So because we are told. I didn't like this. They said the cops were leaders from the black community who, quote, wanted good law enforcement. It's like, no, that's not a thing.

[Jillian Mazavali]

No, I'll say it. I'll translate what they mean.

[Patrick Hines]

Please.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Black men in this rural Southern town are being questioned on a regular basis.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Not just questioned, but suspected by locals and cops alike.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Jillian Mazavali]

You guess how that went for them. Of course, we don't hear really about that at all in this, but, like, that's what was happening.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Mazavali]

So she was targeted. She was like, some black guy did it. And the rest of the townspeople were like, okay, get him.

[Patrick Hines]

We see this not infrequently, you know what I mean? Like the phantom black guy that did it.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah. Here. Susan's like, armor starts to break apart, like, pretty quickly.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Because she started getting questioned by Roy, the forensic artist. Well, Roy's taking the law into his own hands.

[Jillian Mazavali]

She's asked by Roy, what do you want to happen to the person who did this?

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And her response goes.

[Roy]

And she said, I feel like when the sun comes up, they'll find my children. But I know how they can get to you when they've been crying.

[David Smith]

They were screaming, hollering, crying, and. And I'm just scared that he just lost his patience or something, you know?

[Jillian Mazavali]

I don't know.

[David Smith]

I don't know.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Well, maybe the guy killed them. Cause he lost his patience with them. And I'm like, holy shit, Susan.

[Patrick Hines]

I know. And Roy's like, that made the hair on my arms stand up. It's like. And she's. Yeah, she, like, Susan is very off. She's very off.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah. She's not there.

[Patrick Hines]

No, she's not here.

[Jillian Mazavali]

I mean, clearly.

[Patrick Hines]

And once again, I have this note. We keep seeing her in these interviews where she's crying, sobbing, but there are no tears.

[Jillian Mazavali]

There's nothing there.

[Patrick Hines]

Over and over and over again, there's nothing there.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Travel down, girl.

[Patrick Hines]

Zip Recruiter is back. Look, if you ever have one of those situations where, like, you need something or you're trying to find, like, a perfect TV show, or you have, like.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Too many options all the time, it's maddening.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

The same thing applies if you're a business owner who's hiring. It can be overwhelming to have too many candidates to sort through.

[Jillian Mazavali]

But you're a luck. Zip recruiter now gives you the power to proactively find and connect with the best ones quickly. How? Through their innovative resume database.

[Patrick Hines]

And right now, you can try it for [e-mail] TCO look, we've worked with ZipRecruiter all the time. We've loved them. We found great candidates, great employees. I am here to tell you, I'm obsessed.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah. And like, they're. This resume database uses advanced filtering so they can quickly hone in on the top candidates for your roles.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

You see a candidate you're really interested in, you can unlock their contact info instantly.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah. So I guess it's no wonder that ZipRecruiter is the number one rated hiring site based on GTA, too. Yeah, I get it.

[Patrick Hines]

So, fam, skip the candidate overload. Instead, streamline your hiring with ZipRecruiter.

[Jillian Mazavali]

See why 4 out of 5 employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day.

[Patrick Hines]

Just go to this exclusive web address, ziprecruiter.com TCO right now to try it.

[Jillian Mazavali]

For free again, that ziprecruiter.com TCo ZipRecruiter.

[Patrick Hines]

The smartest way to hire. I'm singing it because I love it that much.

[Jillian Mazavali]

You're singing.

[Patrick Hines]

So now we meet Mark Klass. He's the father of Polly Klass. It was a very famous abduction case in 1993.

[Jillian Mazavali]

We've met him before.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Because he started a foundation in Polly's name, but also to help other, like, families in an abduction crisis. And so he says, to give some context, there were a lot of very high profile missing child cases happening at this time. He tells us about Meghan Konka.

[Sasha]

Who.

[Patrick Hines]

She was the girl who Megan's Law was named after. Amber Hagerman, the Amber Alert. And he says, but this one rose to a whole new level because we're dealing with not one, but two missing kids at once.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

And there's. We're dealing with two missing kids, and there's been no sightings, no sightings of the car, no sightings of the perp, no sightings of the kids. Like they have just vanished into thin air.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah. And this, like, wholesome white family and this, like, quote, big, scary black man is in the wind.

[Sasha]

Oh, no.

[Jillian Mazavali]

We're all in danger.

[Patrick Hines]

Yep.

[Jillian Mazavali]

So we get the Susan and David story.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Jillian Mazavali]

They met when she was 23. He was 24. They met at the local Winn Dixie where they both worked.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Susan was the pretty popular girl in high school, but David didn't really know her then. And then he saw her at the Winn Dixie, and the rest is history.

[Patrick Hines]

And they, like, fall in love and start dating. She gets pregnant really fast. David is like, when I found out she was pregnant, it was joyful.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

But also terrifying.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah. So she gets pregnant with Michael quickly, they get married, and David's like, I was terrified, but happy. He goes, I just knew that everything was going to be okay.

[Mark Klass]

When Michael was born, from the moment I first held him, I knew he was part of my heart. I enjoyed, you know, watching him change and watching him discover, you know, his hands and his feet and. Yeah. And it was. It was fantastic being a dad.

[Patrick Hines]

He was, like, born to be a dad, this guy.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Right. Like, it was scary. And they definitely only got married because she got pregnant, but he loved being a dad.

[Patrick Hines]

Loved it.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Loved every second of it, even the fear. He was like, this is kind of great. Like, it means I'm a dad, so I'm in.

[Patrick Hines]

He said this thing that I so related to. He's like, I loved watching them. I loved watching Michael grow and change. I loved watching him discover his hands and feet. Like, that is such a thing. I remember, like, I was telling Daisy the other day, actually, when I used to feed her, she took forever to eat. She still does. Children all do. I remember Daisy would have her bottle like this, and then she'd look at her hand, Right. She would just twist it, like she's on shrooms.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And she would do it all the time. She's like, daddy, why did I do that? I was like, I don't know.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Cause everyone. Cause we all.

[Patrick Hines]

But you're discovering your hand.

[Jillian Mazavali]

You're like, what is that thing that.

[Patrick Hines]

I have total control over?

[Jillian Mazavali]

But, like, I'm not thinking about doing this. I'm just doing it.

[Patrick Hines]

Totally.

[Jillian Mazavali]

I think about that, about walking all the time.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, I know.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Especially when I'm like, I just walked 10 blocks and I don't really remember.

[Patrick Hines]

Sometimes in the act of walking, I'm like, I am not telling my body to do this. It's just doing it. Like, your body, like, breathing, too. You know what I mean? It just happens.

[Jillian Mazavali]

But then you think about it, and then you're like, first of all, my heart is definitely about to stop.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And then you breathe weird until you realize that you're doing it without. It's very weird.

[Patrick Hines]

100%.

[Jillian Mazavali]

So it was a rocky relationship from the start. They were both cheating on each other and always breaking up.

[Patrick Hines]

Always breaking up. Always cheating on each other. I am going to ask a kindness. I need everybody to stop talking about what a great mother she was. I need. I don't want to fucking hear.

[Jillian Mazavali]

But I'm like, says who?

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly. I don't want to hear it. And. And, like, I understand. They say it, so. And David especially. I think David needs to say it because he's like, Susan, you know, she.

[Mark Klass]

Was a great mother. She always made sure they were clean. Dead.

[Patrick Hines]

I understand that. I get it. She killed her fucking kids. She let them die the most miserable, horrible, painful death you can imagine. I do not want to hear about what a great mother she was.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah. Because everyone is saying. Everyone said that.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And I'm like. But not a single person. You know what I mean? Like, it's all the reporters being like, well, everyone said so.

[Patrick Hines]

And I get that. They're just trying to say there weren't warning signs, like, we wish we could have stopped this, but there weren't. I get it. And David, I understand. I love you. I love you.

[Jillian Mazavali]

They weren't being physically abused on a regular basis.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly. But, like, they say it throughout both episodes so much. I just can't stand it.

[Jillian Mazavali]

We're not gonna.

[Patrick Hines]

No, thank you.

[Jillian Mazavali]

But, you know, like, they were young. They only got married because she was pregnant. I get. They just weren't really meant to be together.

[Sasha]

No.

[Jillian Mazavali]

But, like, during one of their, like, good stretches, Susan gets pregnant with Alex.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And, like, it's scary because they. The relationship was bad. But, like, David explains, like, we loved having Michael.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And so, like, he. At least David. Because fuck Susan. But at least David was like, I don't know. I loved having kids. And, like, he was happy about Alex, and he thought maybe that having Alex and Michael would help their relationship. It's not. It never does.

[Patrick Hines]

Never does. No. But also, David says that Michael, the older brother, was instantly very protective of Alex, which I thought was beautiful. And so fudgeing. Heartbreaking at the same time because he's sitting in the car, unable to help his little brother.

[Jillian Mazavali]

So that didn't work, however. So the marriage was falling apart, maybe even faster now with the two kids.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, they're separated. And Getting divorced, like the marriage is now over.

[Jillian Mazavali]

But during their separation though pre divorce, during the separation, Susan already had a new boyfriend.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And we learn quickly. Do not worry, we will dive into this eventually.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Jillian Mazavali]

The sweatshirt that Susan is wearing in that now famous footage of her and David on the news begging for help.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Belongs to the boyfriend.

[Patrick Hines]

And she wanted him to see it.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Hold tight.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

We will get back to that.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And David says, look, even though he and Susan weren't together anymore, he was like, I was with my kids as often as I could be.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Like that's all he wanted to do.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And he says, he kind of stops and he like says, and again, because he's here with us, he's like telling this to the documentary.

[Mark Klass]

He goes, I know I was a lousy husband, but I was a. I was a good dad.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Dad.

[Mark Klass]

I was a great dad.

[Jillian Mazavali]

I was a great dad. And David, I believe you.

[Patrick Hines]

I couldn't agree more. David, be my dad. Thank you so much.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Because David and Susan are a united front on this tragedy. Like they're doing all the press together.

[Patrick Hines]

Well. And now that the kids are missing, David is saying we were both staying at Susan's parents house. I wanted us to be together if there was any news, if the authorities needed to reach us, it would be quicker. Remember, this is 1994. This is pre cell phone.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Sure.

[Patrick Hines]

You know, so they're living together and like I guess going through this thing with the only other person in the world who can understand. How unimagina.

[Jillian Mazavali]

I get it completely.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Except that she created the situation.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Except that she's a fucking monster.

[Patrick Hines]

She did.

[Jillian Mazavali]

But David, in this moment, I get it.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Days are going by, searches are happening. Black men are being suspected, questioned and harassed.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Jillian Mazavali]

No leads, no information, no nothing.

[Patrick Hines]

And they, and everybody knows like the longer the search goes on without any leads, the way less likely it becomes that they're going to find these kids alive.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Right. But now like the entire country is involved. This is, this is national news.

[Patrick Hines]

The sheriff is holding twice daily press conferences to keep everyone up to date. Like that's how what I mean, I remember this. It was 1994. I was a sophomore in high school. I remember this story.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Really?

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Jillian Mazavali]

But this is why Mark Klass is here. Because he like his life's. After Polly was abducted and killed in.

[Roy]

1993, Paulie Klass was abducted at knifepoint from her bedroom the night of October 1st as she and two girlfriends overnighted at her house. We started the Class Kids foundation to keep Polly's memory alive. And in the ensuing years, we have been involved in thousands of cases of missing kids.

[Jillian Mazavali]

He made his life about helping families, finding their missing loved ones, like, right away.

[Patrick Hines]

I always. I don't know what I would do. I mean, I don't know. I can't as a. As a parent, I can't not think about it, like, what. What would I do? I don't know. I really want to believe I'm not a just take to the bed for the rest of my life kind of person. I don't think I am. Oh. I, like, lost my breath thinking about it, like, of course. But I. Good. Good for you, Mark. Like, you know.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah. I mean, like, he really dove into the work. He did it immediately.

[Patrick Hines]

And he's able to speak about Paulie's story now unemotionally, which I think is important to his work.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Well, because the class kids, which they close it down after 30 years, kind of recently. 20, 24, I think, really. But they used what he called, like a proven professional, methodical approach.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. He was in. I can't remember what the other documentary.

[Jillian Mazavali]

He was called, Vanish.

[Patrick Hines]

Okay. Yes, yes, yes.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And he's in his late 70s now, but, like, he is called to help with this case. His daughter went missing a year earlier, and he's already here to help this family.

[Patrick Hines]

She was abducted at knife point from her bedroom during a sleepover. I mean, that is the thing that nightmares are made up.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah. You think you're safe. Oh, they're in the house.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, the parents are home. You know what I mean? Like, it is absolutely crazy.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So he flies to South Carolina to see if he can help. He's been invited by the. By David's father.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And by, like, the local authorities. They're like, please come in and help us.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And also, though, in addition to that, he's like, yeah, sure. But he. Again, diving into the work. He's working on a television show.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Jillian Mazavali]

So he goes to South Carolina to interview David and Susan for this show about their missing kids. That interview doesn't happen. This man is an expert and a fellow grieving parent, and they refuse to even speak to him behind closed doors without cameras.

[Patrick Hines]

And we're only on day three, by the way. It's not like they've been at this for a year and they can't take it anymore. We are on day three of the.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Investigation, and they won't meet an expert who's also a fellow grieving parent.

[Patrick Hines]

Right, exactly. And so. And in addition to that, they've now stopped talking to anybody at all they have a spokesperson speaking for them. It's Susan's cousin Margaret.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Not from the bonus episode.

[Patrick Hines]

Not.

[Roy]

When you have a missing child in your family. You're much better. Getting rid of this woman who's speaking on your behalf and getting out in front of the cameras yourself. Your children's best spokesperson is you. So for them to stonewall America at this point, that started to lead to some suspicions.

[Patrick Hines]

Get rid of this woman. This is only going to make you look guilty.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Because at first, because it's like after three days of nonstop press, they have completely stepped out of the spotlight. And then you're thinking, like, let me take myself out of it. On one hand, that can be understandable.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Like, if you get yourself there, you're sad, you're exhausted, you want to keep the conversation going, but you can't do it yourself because it's too hard. So you have a family member, like, maybe I'd be able to. And then Mark comes in and he's like, jillian, shut up. You're 100% wrong.

[Patrick Hines]

If you want to find your kids, get back in front of the camera.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Because he says, like, the best and kind of only way to do this is to do it yourself.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Jillian Mazavali]

As the parent.

[Patrick Hines]

And he just says for them to be stonewalling America started raising some suspicion.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And so now everyone's really suspicious of the parents, and they're picking apart Susan's entire story because David is there as a supportive father.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And it's Susan's whole story from the very beginning. She's the only witness, the last person to see anybody.

[Patrick Hines]

And David will say to the end of this episode, like, I believed her fully. He says, I didn't believe her 99%. I believed her 100%.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Travel down the road Back again, girl.

[Patrick Hines]

Pretty litter is back. Can I tell you, I was stopped in the wild. And the only question the listener had for me was our code for pretty litter.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Well, yeah. You know what that means? That they are a thoughtful person and they have a cat, and they don't want their house to smell, and they also want their cat to be healthy.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Here's the deal. Pretty litter is that cat litter that helps monitor your cat's health, detecting abnormalities in your cat's urine by testing acidity and alkalinity levels and the visible presence of blood. So, like, when the cat uses the box, if it changes color, you know, you got to take the cat to the vet. That's the bottom line.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah. My favorite thing, the ultra absorbent formula. Because as someone who goes into homes that have cats in them.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Mazavali]

There's no disgusting litter. Dust all over the floor. It doesn't smell.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Which is the big thing.

[Patrick Hines]

And speaking of big things, Pretty Litter ships right to your door. So no heavy bags to carry carry and no last minute pet store runs. They anticipate your needs.

[Jillian Mazavali]

They absolutely do. And right now, save 20 on your first order and get a free cat toy at prettylittleitter.com TCO that's prettylittleitter.com TCO.

[Patrick Hines]

To save 20% on your first order and get a free cat toy. My favorite.

[Jillian Mazavali]

So cute. Prettylittleitter.com TCO fam Pretty litter cannot detect.

[Patrick Hines]

Every feline health issue or prevent or diagnose diseases. Any diagnosis can only come from a licensed veterinarian. Terms and conditions applied apply. See site for details Details Wow. Fancy pants Girl Zebiotics Pre Alcohol Probiotic is back. Look, Pre alcohol is that little drink you take before you have your night out with your friends and you can still function the next day. Like the way I plan to go to the gym on Saturdays and Sundays. And ever since I've been taking the pre alcohol, I can still make it there on time.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Exactly. So Zbiotics Pre Alcohol Probiotic Drink is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic.

[Patrick Hines]

It was invented by PhD scientists to tackle rough mornings after drinking. Where have you been all my life?

[Jillian Mazavali]

Seriously. So here's how it works. When you drink, alcohol gets converted into a toxic byproduct in the gut.

[Patrick Hines]

It's buildup of this byproduct, not dehydration, that's to blame for your rough days after drinking.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Pre alcohol produces an enzyme to break this byproduct down.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, just remember to make pre alcohol your first drink of the night. Drink responsibly and you'll feel your best tomorrow. Like I said, my morning gym routine is back on. Or like Daisy and I were at the park last night. Weekend at 8am Girl, there you go.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And also, the final days of summer are here for you to enjoy. So whether you're heading to the beach, hitting up some vineyards in wine country, or squeezing in one last vacation road trip, don't forget to bring Zbiotics Pre Alcohol Probiotic Drink Drink a pre alcohol before drinking and enjoy every day of summer to the fullest.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Go to Zebiotics.com TCO to learn more and get 15% off your first order. When you use TCO at check out.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Zebiotics is backed with 100% money back guarantee. So if you're unsatisfied for any reason. They'll refund your money, no questions asked.

[Patrick Hines]

Remember to head to zebiotics.com tco and use code tco for your 15% off.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Thank you, Zebiotics, for sponsoring this episode and our good times.

[Patrick Hines]

And the good times, girl. Thank you so much.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Thanks. So here's Susan's story. Susan was driving with the kids. She's at a stoplight. Remember that? This black man runs up to her, forces his way in the car, forces her to drive down towards the lake, forces Susan and out of the car and forces her to leave the kids in the backseat. And he just drives off into the night.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Jillian Mazavali]

So we learn what we were saying before. Like, most carjackers would immediately bail when they see the two kids in the backseat. Like, they don't need that kind of hassle.

[Patrick Hines]

And one of our experts is saying when it comes to a carjacker, they've got three needs. The car, the money, and maybe the female driver if they are looking to like, sexually assault somebody or something. He in no way abused her, touched her, molested her in any way while they were driving. Her purse was in the floorboard next to his feet. He asked for no money. He did not go through her purse.

[Roy]

Nowhere in that hierarchy do you see taking children. This is not adding up.

[Patrick Hines]

And they're like, carjackers definitely do not want the kids.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Two screaming kids. Absolutely not.

[Patrick Hines]

And they know this has been now elevated from a carjacking to a kidnapping, which is a much more serious offense.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Right. So this isn't making sense. And so now everyone is asking questions about Susan, trying to see if the story's even real.

[Patrick Hines]

Mark class, he's like, well, if they're not gonna fucking talk to me, I'm gonna go interview the neighbors. So he says, we found something very significant from Susan's across the street neighbor. She insisted that she had left the house at 8:30pm and the neighbor's like, that's not true at all. She left much earlier, somewhere between 6 and 6:30. And he knows this cause he was watching her out the window.

[Jillian Mazavali]

She's a nosy neighbor.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Jillian Mazavali]

He hears the door close. Boom. He's bolting, lifting up the blinds. What's going on over there? What's she doing over there?

[Patrick Hines]

I gotta tell you, the number of times that nosy neighbors have come to our rescue in these episodes. Know what I mean?

[Jillian Mazavali]

Like, enough times that make you go, should I be a nosy neighbor?

[Patrick Hines]

Be a harmless nosy neighbor. You know what I mean? Be harmless.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah. Susan also kept changing her story. So first she was leaving to visit a friend, but it turns out this friend wasn't expecting our number one, and he wasn't even home.

[Patrick Hines]

The friend was like, what the fuck is she talking about? I wasn't expecting Susan.

[Jillian Mazavali]

We had no plans and I wasn't home.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Then she says, oh, actually, just kidding, I was walking around Walmart.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Jillian Mazavali]

But we learned that no one saw her at Walmart. And this is such a small town and everyone knows each other that, like, people would have remembered her there. I remembered her being there.

[Patrick Hines]

1994. It wasn't the fucking Flintstones. Like, were there no cameras at the. You know what I mean?

[Jillian Mazavali]

Probably not.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, on those, like, enormous rolling ones that, like, they used during the JFK assassination.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, I'm just imagining that's what all cameras looked like.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Enormous. As big as this room. David, the husband doesn't give a. About any of these inconsistencies. These are his kids. He doesn't care about any of it. He just believes Susan. Like, what? He's just like, can you stop asking these questions and go find my kids?

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Like, okay, so she's traumatized and doesn't know exactly when she left the house, says David.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, I know, I know, I know. But then we get, for me, the biggest piece of information.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And this is what's really been nagging at the cops, too.

[Patrick Hines]

So they say this carjacking happened on Highway 49. It's an east west highway or whatever. There's only those two lanes. And she's saying, I was at a red light and this guy jumped in. And the cops are saying, but wait a second.

[Roy]

On Highway 49, the light stays green all the time for traffic 49, east to west. The only time it Turns Red on 49 is another car comes up to it. She said there would have been a witness. I talked with Susan at the sheriff's office. Well, tell me about the other car. She said it was no other car.

[Patrick Hines]

Susan is saying, no, there was no witness. It was just a red light, no other car. And the cops are just saying that's impossible.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And the fact that she's insisting that there were no other cars around is a really big problem for her.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, this is. We're going to learn. I'll just say it now. We're going to learn. The cops didn't trust her from the jump.

[Jillian Mazavali]

From the jump.

[Patrick Hines]

And they were doing a parallel investigation like they were doing. They were following up on every lead that she gave them, but they were also investigating her, which, like. And this was the major. This, this piece of information was like, the major reason why.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah. So as the search goes on, David and Susan keep getting questioned by the police, but then they stop questioning David and they focus on Susan because her story keeps changing.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Or she's like, I'm not going to repeat myself. Sorry. Bye. Right, so we meet Pete. He's the FBI's polygraph guy, which you know how I feel about polygraphs. But he's here.

[Patrick Hines]

He feels the exact oppos. He loves it.

[Jillian Mazavali]

He loves that.

[Patrick Hines]

He loves his. Like, he loves a polygraph.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Loves it.

[Patrick Hines]

If I was a polygrapher, I would be hooking up everybody I know to it.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Really?

[Patrick Hines]

Have you ever talked shit about me when I walked out of the room?

[Jillian Mazavali]

Doesn't matter. You can't. But like, you. I would be like, it doesn't matter. Liar. By.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm saying if I believed in it as much as he does. And he like, explains the quote, science around why, like, they are not admissible in court. They are. They are junk. Nobody should ever take one. Never ever fucking do it. I mean, the only thing about it is that, like, you know, the husband is a much more likely candidate to have been involved in this than the mother, statistically.

[Mark Klass]

They had interviewed me early on and given me a polygraph and ruled me out, but they kept interviewing Susan.

[Patrick Hines]

He passes and it rules him out immediately. Like, it can be worked. It can be used to rule you out.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Well, back in 1994, they fucking loved him.

[Patrick Hines]

I know. Oh, totally.

[Jillian Mazavali]

They loved them.

[Sasha]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jillian Mazavali]

But Pete, like, cuts right to the chase. He's like, are you lying? Did you kill your kids? But David admits. David, the father admits. He's like, oh, we absolutely talked about the best way to pass a polygraph. Like, how to stay calm.

[Patrick Hines]

But, like, I'm sorry, I don't think Susan Smith is acing how to pass a poly. You know what I mean?

[Jillian Mazavali]

Like, well, she failed all three tests.

[Patrick Hines]

And the thing is, we get conflicting stories here. We told. We are told that she failed all three, but then we're going to hear that they were actually inconclusive.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Whatever. It doesn't matter.

[Patrick Hines]

It doesn't matter. It just matters to the cops. And in this instance, it's working in.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Our favor because, like, so we have all of her discrepancies. The, quote, deceptive polygraph test, the refusal to speak to anyone, sending the cousin to speak out. Like, all of this is a bad look.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Jillian Mazavali]

So finally, David convinces Susan to get back in front of the cameras.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And it's November 2, 1994, day eight. And she begs once again, but without a single tear in sight, but being.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, please, I miss my children. Bring them back. No tears.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Not a single tear.

[Patrick Hines]

Not a single tear.

[Jillian Mazavali]

So she's, like, begging for her kids to be returned safely. And this is how episode one ends with like. But everything is about to fall apart.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Jillian Mazavali]

So now we start episode two. And after nine days of searching, the cops call a press conference.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my God.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Everyone knows something big is coming. But everyone is thinking, well, they got the guy, right?

[Patrick Hines]

Or, they found the kids.

[Sasha]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Susan Smith has been arrested.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And David hears about this while he's watching the news. He learns about it with everybody else.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And finally, the cops are saying to.

[Roy]

Us today, she tried to be the victim. If you go back and look at all the newsreels, she was crying, but she wasn't crying real tears.

[Cynthia Barnes]

Seeing Susan Smith appearing in these press conferences doing what we call in criminology, scrunch crying. She screwed her face up with emotion, but no tears are coming. That usually indicates that they're faking it.

[Patrick Hines]

She was sobbing with no tears. We were clocking all that.

[Jillian Mazavali]

I thought that was such a big reveal.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Like, I was like, holy shit.

[Patrick Hines]

Because, I mean, no one ever talks about it. And, like. Like, watching it now, it looks so fucking fake.

[Jillian Mazavali]

But I'm like.

[Patrick Hines]

And she gets to the point where she's not even pretending to cry. She's like, oh, my God, I missed my kid. Like, she's not even pretending to cry.

[Jillian Mazavali]

But I'm like, okay. They didn't say anything because they didn't want to derail the investigation, but, like, yet all of those resources were being wasted. How many black men were being harassed not just by the cops, but by the community?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Like, I mean, I know it was a week. I know it was eight or nine.

[Patrick Hines]

Days, but still, you know what I mean? And, you know, going back to the polygrapher, because he's back here to say that, like, the question that she would get asked was, do you know where your kids are? And that always came back inconclusive.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

That must be. If you are a polygrapher and you believe in the tool of the polygraph. When you get an answer like that, that must be bone chilling.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Totally.

[Patrick Hines]

To know that you're sitting next to the killer.

[Jillian Mazavali]

You know, remember how this is basically the plot of Meet the Parents, how he, like, forces Craig to take the polygraph test?

[Patrick Hines]

No.

[Jillian Mazavali]

It's a whole lot of Meet the Parents oh, my God. Really? Because he's a human lie detect. That's the thing. He worked for the CIA for 34 years. De Niro. So, like. Cause he didn't like Greg. Like, Ben Stiller thinks he's a flower salesman. Like, a flower guy, and he gives him this rare flower. And Robert De Niro, who's the worst CIA guy for 34 years, is like, oh, cool. The Tulipezius genus, like, cool. Doesn't know how to pretend. He' in the CIA. Have you not seen Meet the Paris?

[Patrick Hines]

No, I have, but the only scene I remember is Ben Stiller going into Terry, like, his girlfriend's brother's room, okay? And he's looking for pants or shorts, and he opens the underwear drawer and pulls up the boxers, and the brother walks in and he goes, are you smelling my boxers, bro?

[Jillian Mazavali]

Let me tell you, Pam is the real villain of that movie. I will die on this hill.

[Patrick Hines]

That's Terry Polo.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Jillian Mazavali]

She. Okay, she has him. He oversleeps or whatever. There's a whole breakfast party going on downstairs. Everyone is fully dressed, and his luggage was lost or whatever, so. Which is traumatizing and so fucking annoying. Anyway, she doesn't say, let's drop everything. We'll go shopping. She has to wear her father's pajamas. Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

That's horrible. Judy. I know you. Listen, I am never wearing jackets.

[Jillian Mazavali]

It gets worse.

[Patrick Hines]

I will sleep naked.

[Jillian Mazavali]

The reason he's upstairs is because he's like. They're like, whoa. Like, you should pay a visit to the hair fairy. Because he comes down in the father's pajamas to the breakfast party he was not invited to. The entire family's down there fully dressed. And then he's like, oh, I need clothes. And she's like, go up. And he's like, you want me to go upstairs, wake up your brother, who I've never met, and ask to borrow his clothes? And she gives him this look. She goes like, he is being unreasonable.

[Patrick Hines]

And I'm like, so that's what it is. Cause he opens the underwear drawer and he pulls out the box. I just will always remember. He's looking at the underwear, and her brother's like, are you smelling my boxers?

[Jillian Mazavali]

She looks at him like, he is the problem.

[Patrick Hines]

I know. That is insane.

[Jillian Mazavali]

All of it. I'm like, pamela, I know.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Jillian Mazavali]

The real villain.

[Patrick Hines]

I I 100. You've had that axe to grind for decades.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Decades. Every time I watch it, I'm like, it's horrifying. It's horrifying that she makes him do that.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Jillian Mazavali]

So let's go back to day one of the investigation. Okay, so Roy, the forensic artist clocked her right away.

[Roy]

Very first night. Roy Pascal, a forensic artist, said, she's involved in this thing as far as I can deal. First thing that caused me alarm, when I was sitting there with Susan and her husband David came in. He was comforting her, holding her close, and she was crying. As soon as he left the door, she turned around, she said, well, let's just get back to it. So it was almost like a light switch.

[Jillian Mazavali]

She was like emotionally crying. And then she's like, all right, let's get back to it. He's black. Did you get that?

[Sasha]

He's a black guy.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Did you write that down?

[Patrick Hines]

And once again, like, same as the polygrapher. That's gotta be terrifying to see. Like to like watch somebody just like flip like that.

[Jillian Mazavali]

But for her to not be aware, to even like keep it up a little bit in front of a sketch artist. Totally, totally idiot. Yeah, so, and then like again, they would analyze her video clips and notice that she was like crying, but no tears. Yeah, they call it scrunch crying.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh my God. She was crying, but she wasn't crying real tears. She's doing scrunch crying, twisting up her face, but no tears are coming.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Or having her head in her hands. So she's just like.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, like the sherry papini of it all where she's like, I just don't want to actually look at you when I tell the story.

[Jillian Mazavali]

She's another one.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Jillian Mazavali]

She's also flirting with everybody. She's saying to the cop, oh, you look good for 44.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, what on earth?

[Jillian Mazavali]

Saying this to the cops who are investigating her missing two children. The cop goes, she was acting like we were having a pizza party.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And I'm like, I really like that reference, cuz pizza parties are awesome.

[Patrick Hines]

Truly.

[Jillian Mazavali]

One thing, now that you're an adult, you can have a pizza party whenever you want.

[Patrick Hines]

Ice cream. Ice cream as well.

[Jillian Mazavali]

You can have whatever you want for any meal at any time, anytime.

[Patrick Hines]

I know. You should, you should take care of yourself. But like, but like, but I know.

[Jillian Mazavali]

You don't have to like, wait for Friday for pizza. You can do whatever the hell you want. Just a reminder, like, you can have a cookie right now.

[Patrick Hines]

You know that every Friday, Daisy, she gets a caramel frappuccino with no coffee. And she calls it a tea.

[Jillian Mazavali]

What is that? Just with cream?

[Sasha]

It's.

[Jillian Mazavali]

They, they, they put cream and milk.

[Patrick Hines]

It's like basically milk and Caramel and like some vanilla syrup and like a.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Pop cup, but for kids, literally.

[Patrick Hines]

And she calls it a teenager drink because she would see, like, she thinks that's what it's called.

[Jillian Mazavali]

She's going to be a teenager next week, so you better get into it.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my God.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Get ready. What is she going to drink then?

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, probably black coffee.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Oh, God. Travel down the road.

[Patrick Hines]

Back again, girl. Green light is back. Look, it is the dog days of summer. And I, I got to tell you, this is all about teaching your kids real world money skills they'll use forever. And there's something about the summer that makes, like, Daisy want to spend her cash. So never a better time to sit down and talk to her about all this stuff.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah. So Green light is a debit card and money app made for families that helps kids learn how to save, invest, and spend wisely and honestly. It's never too soon.

[Patrick Hines]

No, it really isn't. And we love doing this with Daisy. Parents can send money to their kids and keep an eye on how they are spending and saving. And Daisy's a good little saver, I got to tell you.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah. Because here's the thing. Like, kids and teens are building money confidence, confidence and skills in a fun, accessible way that feels more like a game than a lesson. Because no one wants, like a lesson from their parents about this, but they'll take it on the app for sure.

[Patrick Hines]

The Greenlight app also includes a chores feature. We've done this. We do this every week. You can set up a one time or recurring chores customized to your household and reward kids with allowance for a job well done. So we look at this every single week. And then we look at the app to see how much money Daisy has saved and we determine how much like, she can spend over the weekend. And oftentimes she ends up not spending anything because she wants to keep saving because she can see her money grow.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Exactly. Now she's a part of it. It.

[Patrick Hines]

It's true, fam. Greenlight is the easy, convenient way for parents to raise financially smart kids and families to navigate life together.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Maybe that's why millions of parents trust and kids love learning about money on Greenlight, the number one family finance and safety app.

[Patrick Hines]

Don't wait to teach your kids real life money skills. Start your risk free greenlight trial [e-mail].

[Jillian Mazavali]

TCO that's greenlight.com TCO to get started.

[Patrick Hines]

Greenlight.Com TCO Be like Daisy, learn. Learn how to save.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Oh, learn how to save. It's cute. You get the Allowance. It's great.

[Patrick Hines]

It's so good.

[Jillian Mazavali]

So she's, like, crying one second, flirting the next, like, susan, thank God you're bad at this. Yeah, keep it up.

[Patrick Hines]

So, okay, so now we're back with the pol. I love that the polygrapher and the sketch artists are solving the shit out of this case. So it's day eight of the investigation. They all know she's lying, and they know that thing about the stoplight, how it couldn't have been at that stoplight. So the polygrapher says to her, because he's trying to give her an opportunity to, like, trip herself up. He says, I think the carjacking happened somewhere else. Because we know the light wouldn't have been red if there wasn't another car. You say there wasn't another car. So if it happened somewhere else and you don't want to tell me, I think that's what's going on.

[Jillian Mazavali]

She jumps on this because he says, are you sure? Are you sure it couldn't have taken place anywhere else? And she. Because he says, that intersection, like, someone had. It couldn't have happened there, girl. Because we know. Like, he tells her about the light. He's like, it couldn't have happened there, and we know for a fact. So did you maybe tell us the wrong place?

[Patrick Hines]

The ingenious part of it is, he's saying, I feel like, you know, it happened somewhere else and you don't want to tell me for some reason. I'm letting you know it's a safe thing. You can tell me whatever it is.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Because we know what couldn't have happened there. Like, we know what couldn't have happened there. So where did it really happen, girl? Like. Like, just tell us.

[Patrick Hines]

So she says, okay, okay, okay, you're right. You're right, you're right. My bad. It happened in some rural location. She'd been going there to meet somebody. That's why she didn't want to tell him.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Thirteen miles away, someplace.

[Patrick Hines]

But she tells them exactly where. And they come back and they're like.

[Roy]

Told her that that could not have happened because that where she said now that it happened, had been under heavy surveillance for a drug operation. We said, hey, we had a roadblock there that night. Which we didn't.

[Patrick Hines]

They're like, we had a roadblock there that night. We would have seen it. And they're like, we absolutely did not have that roadblock.

[Jillian Mazavali]

So it's forcing her to change her story yet again, which if she was telling the truth, she wouldn't have changed it the first Time. Because she'd be like, well, I don't know about that fucking light, but that's what happened.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly. And then we get some investigator who's like, I actually thought it was like some kind of domestic situation where she was hiding the children from David. Oh, I. I was like, girl, that's not it.

[Jillian Mazavali]

No, that's not it.

[Patrick Hines]

No. Bad judge of character, that guy.

[Jillian Mazavali]

So day nine, the cops finally make their move. They call her in for yet another interview, and they tell her that they know she's lying. They're like, just tell us what happened. Like, we know. And if you don't tell us what happened, we're going to tell everyone that you're lying. And that's what makes her actually cry. Real tears.

[Patrick Hines]

I do think, too, that when you're as. Even for somebody as sick as she is, I can't imagine living with the. I just killed both my kids. I'm lying to everybody. They're going to find out like they're searching the lake.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Then what was the plan? Why are you on the fucking news?

[Patrick Hines]

I know, but I do think that, like, nine days later, it. Where it wears you down, I guess. But maybe not. Maybe she just is some kind of insane sociopath who actually doesn't give a fuck.

[Jillian Mazavali]

That one.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Jillian Mazavali]

So just going door number two.

[Patrick Hines]

Totally.

[Jillian Mazavali]

She's been arrested and the people are out for blood because they were heartbroken for her.

[Patrick Hines]

Can you imagine you're somebody who lives in that town, or you're just a citizen of the world and you've been following the story, praying for this woman, worrying about her children, and you find out she's the one who actually fucking.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Did it in 1994. She's pointing the finger at this invisible black guy who doesn't exist. Like the black men in town.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Jillian Mazavali]

I mean, my guy, of course, being harassed for a week.

[Patrick Hines]

But we see the sheriff hold the press conference where he says, Susan Smith has been arrested and will be charged with the murder of her two sons. The audible scream. The only thing I could compare it to was in the Harvey Milk documentary where Dianne Feinstein calls the press conference on the, like, the steps of the city hall to say that both George Moscone and Harvey Milk had been shot and they're both dead. Go YouTube. Because it's wild. And like the. The scream from the crowd, the. The shocked gathered crowd is wild.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah. So everyone's like, okay, so what the hell did she do? Dear listener, take care. Listening to this. It's absolutely horrifying what she did.

[Roy]

She signed a confession saying she strapped the boys into their car seats and let the vehicle roll into a lake.

[Patrick Hines]

She said the vehicle is in the lake and the bodies are in the car.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Now, the lake on the road that she lied about being carjacked on. So, see, there's always a little bit of truth. Psychopath.

[Patrick Hines]

She was driving to this lake to kill her kids, right?

[Jillian Mazavali]

And the divers looked in that lake.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, but that's why I wanted to make the point earlier that they call it like a black ink lake or whatever it is. They could only see 6 inches in front of them.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Right. And so I was thinking, though, do you imagine what she must have felt like when they were searching that lake? Oh, I hope she was miserable. I hope it was. I hope it was the worst feud. Like, but that's an answer for it.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, I guess she'd. She'd be like, well, the carjacker must have been like, well, fuck it, I got to get out. I can't do this. I'm going to ditch the kids in the. In the lake here.

[Jillian Mazavali]

I was hoping she was having a miserable time.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm sure. I. I can't imagine that this week was easy for her because. And now we see images of them pulling the car from the lake.

[Sasha]

The.

[Patrick Hines]

It's been nine days. The headlights are still on. It is the eeriest, most heartbreaking thing I have ever seen. And all of these officers are talking about, this is really hard. All of the officers are talking about seeing the boys strapped into their car seats, in the back seats and saying that, like, that the. They will never, ever be able to move on from having seen that image.

[Jillian Mazavali]

No. And David, the father, is absolutely devastated because the entire community came to the funeral to support him and only him.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

He goes. They say the hardest thing to deal with in life is the loss of the child. And I was trying to deal with the loss of two who were killed by their mother. They did nothing wrong. And he said, the enormity of the pain, I just wanted it to stop. And we will learn later that he was having suicidal thoughts that he had. How do you go on? I mean, how. Because even though I'm sure he, like, whatever feelings he had for her instantly went away. But, like, you were tricked by this person.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Well, and so were the kids because he says, like, they loved you, they trusted you. Like, they didn't do anything wrong. And you monster, like, how could you do this to them?

[Mark Klass]

And he says, the enormity of the pain, I just wanted it to start top. But you know now I had to stand up for Michael Nics as their father. Anything that I could do within my power.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And much like Mark Class, who turned his pain into action, that's what David does. Like, anything he can do in his power for these kids, he's going to do. He's going to step up and represent them in any way he can.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Jillian Mazavali]

So David Brock, this piece of shit, Susan's defense attorney. I know we need defense attorneys. I know don't come for me, but.

[Sasha]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jillian Mazavali]

He says her motive was suicide. And I'm like, I'm sorry, what? Because she's fucking here and they're dead. So explain that girl. Right, so the defense says, well, Susan was abused and she has an illness and she absolutely cannot be held responsible for this. Because we're told Susan's father died by suicide when she was 6.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And the defense is saying that this severely affected her. And we are told that Susan has tried to take her own life twice in the past.

[Patrick Hines]

She also had a stepfather that she says sexually abused her.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Right. I understand all of that. That is all horrifying. I just don't understand how her experiences are to blame or are actually responsible for her murdering her two kids in the absolutely horrifying, evil way she did.

[Patrick Hines]

Or like, are. Are somehow justifying that she did that.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Like, I don't understand. No, because we, we heard that she was such a great mother.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly.

[Jillian Mazavali]

There were no signs. And like, okay, I, like, I can buy that there were no signs. But like, now you're trying to say, like, there were signs the whole time she was sick this whole time.

[Patrick Hines]

Because. And to make matters even worse, we. Some of her signed confession in which she says, I went to that lake because it has a very long ramp. I wanted to end my life so bad. I was in my car, I was going to let it go down the ramp into the water. And they. She says she was starting and stopping and getting closer and stopping. She then gets. Remember, she's there to die by suicide.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And she sat at the top of the ramp and she started to go down and stopped and went a little further and stopped. And at that point she got out of the car and she let the.

[Cynthia Barnes]

Emergency brake go and walked away with.

[Roy]

Her children in the back. And it just rolled down into the.

[Patrick Hines]

Water and lets the car roll into the water. We're going to find out later that when the police did a recreation of this using the exact same car, all of the same circumstances, it takes six minutes for that car to sink. She had to sit There and for six minutes decide she was going to let her children die.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah, she's an absolute piece of shit. And then blame a black guy and then lie and then do horrifying things.

[Patrick Hines]

This idea that she was going to kill herself, even if she was. Even if that was, like, in her brain, when did that switch to, I'm going to now kill my children?

[Jillian Mazavali]

And, yeah, like, why didn't you take. Because the lead prosecutor is like, she had. If. If the. Even if the story's true, which it's not.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Jillian Mazavali]

She still had plenty of time to rescue the boys.

[Patrick Hines]

And by the way, if you're racking your brain for justification as to, like, maybe this is. What. This is not even true.

[Jillian Mazavali]

No, it's not true. Because they also throw in, like, in addition to her horrible childhood experiences, it's also about how she married so young. Oh, she and David were always cheating on each other. And I'm like, how was this reason for killing their two kids? Like, in what world does any of this make any fucking sense?

[Patrick Hines]

Because the prosecution tells us the truth. The motive was that she fell in love with the son of the owner of the company she worked for. So this company was called Conso. It was one of the largest employers in the county. This guy was really rich, and they were having an affair. And, you know, he broke up with her 10 days before the boys were killed. And there's a letter that he wrot. The breakup letter says, susan, I could.

[Cynthia Barnes]

Really fall for you, but there are some things about you that aren't suited for me. And, yes, I am speaking about your children.

[Patrick Hines]

And yes, I'm talking about the children.

[Jillian Mazavali]

I'm super into you. Really not into your kids? Things would be great for us if you didn't have those kids. Unfortunately, you do. So this is over now. Could this be sort of like a perfect out for him to be like.

[Patrick Hines]

Unfortunately, it doesn't matter whether he means it or not. It doesn't matter because it's her motive for killing the kids.

[Jillian Mazavali]

We learned he was also known around town as quote the Catch. His name is Tom Finley.

[Patrick Hines]

Ew.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Are you kidding? No. He's rich. He might be a lovely guy.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, I guess I should.

[Jillian Mazavali]

I don't know anything about him.

[Patrick Hines]

From the record. I don't know. Unless he's garbage.

[Jillian Mazavali]

But of course, Susan had her sights on him. You know, like, that's just what this is. So the cops and the prosecution are like, well, this is the motive. But then they start seeing things that are proving them right.

[Patrick Hines]

She's leaving Easter eggs.

[Jillian Mazavali]

That sweatshirt.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Jillian Mazavali]

So the sweatshirt we said earlier, that's her boyfriend sweatshirt. It's this rich guy's sweatshirt. She's sending him this psychotic message through the news.

[Patrick Hines]

She wore that sweatshirt the night she killed the kids. And she's wearing it in of her early interviews. She wants him to see, look what I did for you.

[Jillian Mazavali]

For us.

[Patrick Hines]

For us. She's telling him. Which means this guy knew.

[Jillian Mazavali]

This guy knew all along.

[Sasha]

He.

[Patrick Hines]

Not that she told him.

[Jillian Mazavali]

I don't. I don't think he knows.

[Patrick Hines]

You don't think that he saw that as a sign?

[Jillian Mazavali]

I don't. I. I mean, then we. I think we would get more conversations with him, more letters. No, no. I think she got. She was. So I'm.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm all for the conspiracy theories today.

[Jillian Mazavali]

No, no, no, because what else was.

[Roy]

In the car when we pulled the car up? All of her wedding and albums, maternity clothes. All of this stuff is in the back of the car. It's like she's burying her old life.

[Jillian Mazavali]

She was burying her old life. She was getting rid of it. This is. She acted alone. No question.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And it does beg the question, was she actually going there to kill herself? You know, and I do think in like, the familicides, they're more likely to kill themselves and their family as opposed to just murdering their kids.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Because. And that's why the suicide thing is bullshit. Because she was gonna be with the boyfriend.

[Sasha]

Exactly.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Or the boyfriend. Or like, was she just obsessed with this guy?

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And he was trying to let her down easy. Like, we don't know.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. Yeah, but the letter from the boyfriend is all the evidence I need. Get rid of the kids. We'll be together.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And when you think, like, this woman is a fudgeing monster and she's only like 26.

[Patrick Hines]

Totally.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Oh, my God.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Jillian Mazavali]

So David the dad is. So we're at the trial and David the dad is just going through it because he's, like, sitting like, right behind.

[Patrick Hines]

Her and he's saying, like, being that close to her and not being able to murder her was really hard.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah, he was like. It was hard to see her. It was even harder to be close to her and not hurt her.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

But says I had to remember why we were there and who were seeking justice, or he is there to get justice for his kids.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah. So this trial was happening at the same time as OJ which is wild.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, I guess I knew that, but like, that is that. But the major difference was there were cameras in the courtroom for OJ and no cameras for Susan Smith, which is why Susan Smith is a name that, you know. But you don't remember the trial. Like, how we remember O.J.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Right. Can we not, like, compare every fucking trial to O.J.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, it makes sense because it was happening at the same time, I.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Guess, but it's like, not since O.J. or until O.J. and it's like, can we.

[Patrick Hines]

I know, I know. They're. They're all bad.

[Jillian Mazavali]

They're all like, enough.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Jillian Mazavali]

So Susan never took the stand. The trial was five days, and she was found guilty of murder. Two counts of first degree murder in the deaths of her two sons. David's like, death penalty. Is this a death penalty thing?

[Patrick Hines]

Well, enough. Like, they're. They're saying, like, I, of course, don't support the death penalty, but, like, if the death penalty were ever, like, they're saying they give some justification as to why the death penalty isn't necessarily appropriate here. What is it appropriate for?

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah, I don't. I mean, you know what I mean? Yeah. If we're talking in the actual abstract of, like, who deserves to not live anymore.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Jillian Mazavali]

I don't really know what she's doing positively on this earth.

[Patrick Hines]

It's almost as though there are, like, benchmarks that are like, well, the death penalty is appropriate for this kind of murder, but not this kind of murder. And I was like, she killed her kid. She strapped her kids into the back seat of her car and then pushed the car into a lane.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Like, she tortured and killed them.

[Patrick Hines]

She tortured and killed her children and.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Then blamed the black guy that were still not the one.

[Patrick Hines]

So, like, death penalty proponents explain to me, like, which are the good ones and which are the bad ones? I mean, I'm at a loss here.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Jesus Christ.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Jillian Mazavali]

So she does not get the death penalty. She gets life in prison.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Jillian Mazavali]

David, of course, hightails that divorce and make sure that divorce goes through before the trial.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Jillian Mazavali]

David is now remarried, has two children, a daughter and a son.

[Patrick Hines]

I just love him. Like, the way that he is talking to the camera about his survival, the way that he talked about how he's.

[Mark Klass]

Saying Michael and Alex, they are, you know, part of my whole heart. And, you know, part of me even right now feels like I should be smiling because it was such a joyous time.

[Patrick Hines]

Even now I feel like I should be smiling because it was such a joyful time.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah. He fucking loved them so much. And, like, your heart just breaks for this guy, really. A million pieces.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm sobbing watching, watching him talk about.

[Jillian Mazavali]

That it's just horrifying. And, like, there's a memorial for. From Michael and Alex right near the lake. So we end with, like, she was going to get parole in November of 2024.

[Patrick Hines]

I read a whole article about this day. Did you read it, too?

[Jillian Mazavali]

I read like, seven.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, the whole thing was that, like, she didn't get parole. Both David and his new wife were like, please don't ever let this woman out. They said that she served 15 years for each kid. At this point, that's not a long enough time.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah. She was denied parole in November of 2024. But also the prison guard she was having an affair with in 2001 also made a statement.

[Patrick Hines]

No.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Saying that she 100% should. Should not get parole.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my. Well, why are we listening to that piece of shit?

[Jillian Mazavali]

I know, he's like, oh, I fell for the manipulation. I'm not around women a lot. How about your wife?

[Patrick Hines]

Did he have a wife? Oh, my God.

[Jillian Mazavali]

But I'm saying, everyone.

[Patrick Hines]

It's garbage on garbage on garbage.

[Jillian Mazavali]

I know, but she's. She's in there. But she's eligible for parole like, every two years now.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my God.

[Jillian Mazavali]

So we're gonna have to.

[Patrick Hines]

She killed two children brutally. She's tortured and murdered. Not only did she not get the death penalty, she didn't get life without parole. Who are we still saving that for? Who.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Who.

[Patrick Hines]

Who's earning life without parole if not her?

[Jillian Mazavali]

And I read this other article, which unfortunately was from the New York Post. So take it with, like, all the.

[Patrick Hines]

Do you know that the New York Post started as a liberal newspaper?

[Jillian Mazavali]

Like Alexander Hamilton started it?

[Patrick Hines]

Is that right?

[Jillian Mazavali]

He's the founder.

[Patrick Hines]

It was always, like, liberal until, like, the, like, late 70s.

[Jillian Mazavali]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

Isn't that crazy?

[Jillian Mazavali]

Ridiculous. So I apologize for this, but apparently right after that decision came down, she turned into, quote, a rude bitch. Because she was, like, being. She was like, a model prisoner up until parole. And then once she didn't get it, she was like, fuck this. I'm gonna, like, my true colors are gon. She's like.

[Patrick Hines]

She's sending back her salmon in the dining hall.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah. Like, in whatever, like, five star resort she's in. Because apparently she, like, is deserving of all the benefits of all the doubts.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, what is going on?

[Jillian Mazavali]

Fucking monster.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my God, girl. We did the Susan Smith thing. What's it called?

[Jillian Mazavali]

Someone Stole My Babies. It's two episodes of that show. How it really happened.

[Sasha]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jillian Mazavali]

So, yeah. And she's a racist.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, I mean, clearly, fam. Join the book club. You can get all of the information for the book club on the website. It's true crime obsessed dot com. Join the Patreon, but only if you want over 450 full ad free bonus episodes to download and binge the second you sign up. All right, girl, we're mixing it up a little bit. What? What are we doing next?

[Jillian Mazavali]

So we have a repeat next week. We are going to re air the Perfect Bid, the Price Right documentary that we did in like, 2022.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my God.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And then the week after that, we're doing Train Wreck Poop Cruise. Enough is enough already.

[Patrick Hines]

Getting down to it, this train wreck series is amazing. I've watched almost all of them. The Poop Cruise one is beyond.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah, we're doing them all. We're doing balloon boy. We're doing the Mayor of Mayhem. Don't worry, we'll get to him.

[Patrick Hines]

All right, well, stay tuned for the trailer for the Perfect Bid. Cuz that's what's coming up next week. And we love you, fam.

[Jillian Mazavali]

We love you and we'll see you soon. And just gird your loins for the Poop Cruise. Okay, it's actually not. It didn't have to be that bad, but it became very bad.

[Patrick Hines]

Bye. Bye.

[Pete]

He wins this game. They go to commercial, and it's time to start up again. And the next item up for bids, and it's a recliner. So I listen carefully and I look at the monitor and I see it's for Klein Wardell, who's just come down to contestants row bids first. And I'm thinking, please don't bid $5.99. Please don't bid $5.99. Please don't bid $5.

[Jillian Mazavali]

99.

[Patrick Hines]

$650. $650. Now let's go up here to Theodore. 599. 599. One of you is exactly right. $100 bonus for the contestant who bid 5.99.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Theodore.

[Pete]

Very happy. I go up on stage. I almost trip going up the stairs. People say you don't really understand it till you're on the stage, and it's true. You get up there and you're just kind of like, oh, my God, I don't know what I'm doing. It's very exciting.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Wait, what? I'm just goofing.

[Mark Klass]

New boot.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Goofing. Oh.