452: Look Into My Eyes Part 2

Summary

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True Crime Obsessed – Episode 452: "Look Into My Eyes: Part 2" (Sep 9, 2025)

Overview

In this intense and emotionally charged episode, hosts Patrick Hinds and Gillian Pensavalle dive into episodes 3 and 4 of the documentary "Look Into My Eyes." They recap the disturbing true story of Dr. George Kenney, a high school principal who hypnotized students—leading to controversy, tragedy, and criminal charges after three students died (two by suicide, one in a car accident). With characteristic humor and heart, the hosts break down the legal, ethical, and emotional fallout, highlighting media coverage, administrative failures, and the ripple effects on families and the school community.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Hypnosis, Tragedy, and the Fallout (02:00–10:00)

• Death Timeline: The deaths of three students—Marcus (March: car accident), Wesley (April: suicide), and Brittany (May: suicide)—all occurred after sessions with Principal Kenney, raising serious questions about his role and the potential dangers of hypnosis on teenagers.
• Positional Parallels: Both suicides occurred with the victims in the same physical position as during their hypnosis sessions.
• Both hosts are openly outraged, questioning: “This guy went 29 years without doing hypnosis. Nobody died. He did one year of hypnosis. Three kids died. He says it's not connected.” (Host 1, 03:43)

Media Coverage and Public Opinion (04:00–08:00)

• Journalists: Elaine Emmerich, a parent and reporter, doggedly pursued the story despite administrative pressure. Kevin, the AV teacher, claims press coverage turned public opinion against Kenney, which the hosts dismiss as blaming the messenger.
  • “She’s a journalist who reported the facts. People get to decide on their own Kevin.” (Host 1, 05:29)
• Nuanced Debate: The hosts discuss the split community—some blaming Dr. Kenney, others defending his intentions and reputation.
• Media Sensationalism: Reproach for how national media latches onto the hypnosis angle, worsening trauma for bereaved families.

Administrative Failures and Accountability (09:00–14:00)

• Kenney Placed on Leave: After the hypnosis story breaks, Kenney is put on administrative leave. The hosts slam the school board’s slow and inadequate response.
  • “The sides are the families of the three dead kids and everybody else.” (Host 1, 09:26)
• Lack of Empathy: Hosts criticize parents and students for prioritizing graduation traditions over acknowledging the pain of grieving families.
  • “Can everyone stop making absolutely everything about themselves for five seconds?” (Host 2, 10:16)

The Nature of Kenney’s Hypnosis Sessions (11:00–14:00)

• Disturbing Details: Sessions often involved physical proximity (students’ heads on Kenney’s lap), which the hosts—and many listeners—found highly inappropriate and unsettling.
  • “The principal is running his fingers through a kid's hair. And it's really gross.” (Host 2, 11:29)
• Questionable Consent: Even when parents were present, video evidence showed sessions alone, undermining Kenney’s claims.

Patterns of Manipulation and Grooming (15:00–17:00)

• Boundary Crossings: Kenney filmed and kept notes on students, allegedly for future publications—not disclosed in permission slips.
  • “You brought your hobby to work... and ripped kids out of class under the manipulation and, dare I say, grooming.” (Host 2, 15:19)

Legal Investigation & The "Steele Report" (21:26–26:31)

• Private Investigation: The district hires PI Keith Steele, resulting in the 112-page "Steele Report," which outlines Kenney’s unlicensed activities.
• Scene Recap: The hosts express disbelief as the report details Kenney aggressively taking over a medical emergency in the weight room—trying to hypnotize an injured student while physically removing the school nurse.
  • “The principal is trying to get this boy with two dislocated shoulders… Listen to my voice, look into my eyes…” (Host 1, 23:31)

Legal Ramifications (26:00–29:37)

• Practicing Without a License: Wayne Beckman from the Florida Dept. of Health explains that Kenney violated statutes prohibiting unlicensed medical practice.
  • “If you are performing activities as a healthcare professional and you are not licensed, survival. Violation of the Florida statutes.” (Wayne Beckman, 25:36)
• Manipulation by Titles: Many parents gave Kenney permission because he flaunted a “Dr.” honorific, misleading people to assume he was a medical doctor.
  • “He’s a doctor of education, I guess. But that doesn’t mean that he’s allowed to perform health care.” (Host 2, 27:20)

Dangers of Hypnosis on Teens (30:02–32:08)

• Lack of Training: Dr. Julian (clinical hypnotherapist) highlights how advanced, risky, and inappropriate Kenney’s techniques were for minors—and how suggestion can have harmful psychological consequences.
  • “Once a person agrees to be hypnotized... we offer suggestions.” (Dr. Julian, 30:41)
• Regression Techniques: Kenney performs “hypnotic regression,” prompting students to relive traumatic events without the skills or credentials of a therapist.

Systemic Administrative Lapses (42:01–44:04)

• Ignored Warnings: The district verbally warned Kenney three times but never enforced or escalated action.
  • “The lawsuit said, if the school district didn't know that I was doing it, they should have known. And if they did know, then they should have stopped me.” (Kenney quoted by Host 1, 42:31)
• Permission Slip Evasion: For several years, no permission slips were required; later ones were vague, misleading about his qualifications, and never disclosed research or filming.

Civil and Criminal Outcomes (46:49–48:47)

• Legal Resolution: Kenney avoids felony charges by pleading guilty to misdemeanors; receives probation and community service, but keeps his pension and lives comfortably.
  • “He ends up getting one year probation and 50 hours of public service work.” (Host 2, 40:20)
• Civil Suit: Parents of the three victims settle with the school district for $200,000 each (capped by law), chiefly for the record rather than any sense of justice.

Impact on Families & Survivors (48:47–51:22)

• Enduring Trauma: Families grieve with no meaningful closure. Survivor guilt runs rampant among students still living.
  • “If you lose a husband, you're widowed... But there isn’t a word to lose your child.” (Britney’s mom, 49:04)

Kenney’s Lack of Remorse (51:22–56:22)

• Self-Pity and Denial: Kenney frames himself as a “victim,” never showing empathy or responsibility for the lives lost.
  • “All he can do is talk about how it was not his fault. And he can't understand the witch hunt.” (Host 1, 51:28)
• Manipulative Messaging: When shown at the school memorial, Kenney recites the exact same “all-American kid” eulogy line-by-line as he had for years, demonstrating a performative, insincere affect.
  • ”It is the exact same speech. He is pausing for effect in the same places.” (Host 2, 55:23)

Broader Lessons and Final Thoughts (58:08–59:59)

• The Real Harm: The hosts reiterate the dangers of unlicensed mental health intervention, especially on vulnerable teens, with no clinical expertise or oversight.
  • “I think they needed real help and he's not qualified to do any of it. It starts at being unlicensed, like period, end of sentence.” (Host 2, 59:17)
• Importance of Boundaries: The entire situation is a cautionary tale about authority figures, credential inflation, and safeguarding minors.

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• Host 1 (03:43): “This guy went 29 years without doing hypnosis. Nobody died. He did one year of hypnosis. Three kids died. He says it's not connected.”
• Host 2 (11:29): “The principal is running his fingers through a kid's hair. And it's really gross.”
• Host 2 (15:19): “You brought your hobby to work... and ripped kids out of class under the manipulation and, dare I say, grooming.”
• Wayne Beckman (25:36): “If you are performing activities as a healthcare professional and you are not licensed... [it’s a] violation of the Florida statutes.”
• Host 1 (27:20): “He’s a doctor of education, I guess. But that doesn’t mean that he’s allowed to perform health care.”
• Dr. Julian (30:41): “Once a person agrees to be hypnotized... we offer suggestions.”
• Host 1 (42:31): “The lawsuit said, if the school district didn't know that I was doing it, they should have known. And if they did know, then they should have stopped me.”
• Britney’s mom (49:04): “If you lose a husband, you're widowed... But there isn’t a word to lose your child.”
• Host 1 (51:28): “All he can do is talk about how it was not his fault. And he can't understand the witch hunt.”
• Host 2 (55:23): “It is the exact same speech. He is pausing for effect in the same places.”
• Host 2 (59:17): “I think they needed real help and he's not qualified to do any of it. It starts at being unlicensed, like period, end of sentence.”

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Important Timestamps for Segments

• Death Timeline & Connections: 02:00–03:54
• Media Coverage & Public Opinion: 04:00–08:00
• Legal Discussion & Statutes: 21:26–26:31
• Doctor vs. Medical Doctor: 26:49–29:37
• Clinical Hypnosis Dangers: 30:02–32:08
• Administrative Failures: 42:01–44:04
• Civil Settlement / Family Grief: 47:00–49:20
• Kenney’s Memorial Speech Reveal: 55:00–56:00

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Tone and Language

• The hosts blend biting humor, sarcasm, and outrage with genuine empathy for the victims and their families. Their asides add levity to an otherwise deeply disturbing story, but their moral clarity is uncompromising.

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Summary

"Look Into My Eyes: Part 2" is a powerful exposé of how institutional complacency, credential confusion, and unchecked authority combined to create a tragic situation in a Florida high school, resulting in three student deaths and countless lives disrupted. The episode skillfully balances critique, empathy, and humor, and serves as a stark warning of what can happen when boundaries between educator and healthcare provider are ignored, and when “help” is unlicensed and unregulated. The hosts’ most resounding message: safeguarding youth is non-negotiable, and self-aggrandizing adults must be held to account.

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Transcript

[Host 1]

Gilded age update. Okay, we're almost at the end of season three and I honestly don't know what I'm gonna do when that happens.

[Host 2]

How many seasons are there?

[Host 1]

Three.

[Host 2]

Oh, no.

[Host 1]

Just got renewed for a fourth. Oh, God, I'm desperate. I don't know what to do. Like, I don't think I've ever been all in on anything.

[Host 2]

Like, I don't think so either. When does the fourth season come out?

[Host 1]

Not for a long time. They haven't started filming it yet.

[Host 2]

Oh, God.

[Host 1]

Train. Daddy.

[Host 2]

Opera.

[Host 1]

Mommy. Clock. Twinkle. I don't know what the.

[Host 2]

I need.

[Host 1]

I need to know.

[Host 2]

I don't know either. We watch White Lotus. Start that over.

[Host 1]

I could maybe do that. I could Carrie Coon until you find.

[Host 2]

Something else, you know, like to hold you over a little bit.

[Host 1]

Is there gonna be anything else or do I watch TV for a year?

[Host 2]

I don't think we have to go that far.

[Host 1]

Okay, good.

[Host 2]

I think you can find something.

[Host 1]

Oh, hi. Jillian Pezivale.

[Host 2]

Hi, Patrick Hines.

[Host 1]

What are we talking? Oh, the book club. We gotta tell you about the book club.

[Host 2]

The book club.

[Host 1]

We've got a book club. It's really good. There's like over 700 people in it. Sasha moderates it. You can go to the pinned post, I think we say in the Facebook group. There's also a disky channel if you want to join the book club. All you do is fill out that little form. Sasha gets back to you in like five minutes.

[Host 2]

Great.

[Host 1]

And then you're in.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

And then Sasha's the best.

[Host 2]

Yeah. And you guys like vote on what books you want to read and it's a whole collaborative thing. It's so fun.

[Host 1]

What's the other thing we're supposed to tell him?

[Host 2]

Patreon.

[Host 1]

Oh, we've got a Patreon. We have something like 500 full ad free bonus episodes on the Patreon.

[Host 2]

That's crazy.

[Host 1]

Go back to the staircase. Go back to the jinx.

[Host 2]

Go back to Heaven Gate.

[Host 1]

Yeah. So much of the jinx right now. We're doing. What are we doing right now?

[Host 2]

Amy Bradley is missing.

[Host 1]

Oh, my God. We have a lot of very strong feelings.

[Host 2]

And then Mr. And Mrs. Murder on Hulu.

[Host 1]

Mr. And Mrs.

[Host 2]

Murder. Murder. I know.

[Host 1]

Oh, my God.

[Host 2]

It's really crazy.

[Host 1]

There's so much stuff out there.

[Host 2]

There's a. There's like a lot.

[Host 1]

I know.

[Host 2]

Hey, some of them could be one documentary. Not everything has to be.

[Host 1]

I know.

[Host 2]

Fucking episodes like this. For example.

[Host 1]

For. For example. Well, welcome back to our coverage of episodes three and four of look into My Eyes, which is episode two of our coverage on our regular feed.

[Host 2]

Yeah. So this is episode three.

[Host 1]

Did I nail it?

[Host 2]

You did.

[Host 1]

Thank you so much.

[Host 2]

This is episode three. Activate the unconscious again. I don't need the time. I know Wesley died April 8, and then Brittany died in May.

[Guest or Interviewee 1]

And they both were down, kneeling and.

[Host 2]

Leaned forward and hung themselves. Our principal was hypnotizing kids. And then three kids died. And very coincidentally, they all were hypnotized by George Kenny.

[Guest or Interviewee 1]

When all this happened, there was numerous kids saying they'll never come back to school until Dr. Kinney is gone. It went fast, quick.

[Host 1]

I guess it's easy to say that he did something wrong if you don't know him.

[Host 2]

There were things going on that should have either been stopped or brought to someone's attention. You know, we can go back and forth whether or not hypnosis had anything to do with it, because I know a lot of people wanted to blame Dr. Kinney, but I also know a lot of people had his back on it. There was a lot of people that didn't blame him.

[Guest or Interviewee 1]

There was conversation going on behind the scenes at the district attorney's office about pressing charges. I was pretty panicked.

[Host 1]

So we're back with the principal himself now at the end of our last episode. The cops have been made aware that, like, these three deaths can be connected to Kenny and his hypnotism. So he's saying. He's telling us there was a lot of discussion at the DA's office about charging him. Could be 75 counts, and it could. They could make it a felony charge. And it's a maximum of a five year sentence for each charge, to which I say throw away the key.

[Host 2]

Well, and I just want to say this is going to, I think, stop you a little bit because Marcus died in March. The car accident. Wesley died in April.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yes.

[Host 2]

Suicide. Britney died in May. Suicide.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

So they can't get through a month without some tragedy striking.

[Host 1]

What I. For those of you who are new here, I said this 18 times in the last episode. This guy went 29 years without doing hypnosis. Nobody died. He did one year of hypnosis. Three kids died. He says it's not connected.

[Host 2]

And two of them, the suicides were. Were found in the same position they were in during these hypnosis sessions. Yeah.

[Host 1]

I hate this guy.

[Host 2]

I hate him.

[Host 1]

Throw away the key. I know.

[Host 2]

So Elaine is a reporter. She's actually a parent of one of the kids at the school, but she's a reporter as well.

[Host 1]

Listen, don't do some fucking shit at your kids school if there's a reporter who has a kid who's a student there.

[Host 2]

And so she says she's like, we owe it to everyone to find and tell the truth. She says, there's no way we would ever hide that. Parents are upset because they thought hypnosis led to their children's death. The principal's like, can you hold the story till graduation? I have several parties to attend.

[Host 1]

And she goes, absolutely fudgeing, not moron.

[Host 2]

Yeah. And then Kevin, the AV teacher who like, half the time I agree with what he says, and then the other half I don't at all hundo pee. And at one point I was like, are you the same person I know because I hate you sometimes. And I agree others.

[Host 1]

Am I the same person who just said one hundo p?

[Host 2]

That's, that's very Patrick.

[Host 1]

Well, is it?

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

I'm not really. They don't like it when I say Riz. It does not feel authentic to them. They say, oh, the listeners, everyone, they just tease me. Which I think is fine.

[Host 2]

Yeah, that's fine. I didn't know where you were going.

[Host 1]

I know. You're like, who's the they?

[Host 2]

I'm like, what are you talking about?

[Host 1]

We still talking about the evil gays?

[Host 2]

Every last one.

[Host 1]

I know.

[Host 2]

But this Kevin guy, he's the former AV teacher.

[Guest or Interviewee 1]

He's like, I always felt that the Northport sun and Elena Emmerich was very anti George Kenny. I think she. She went after him and kind of turned public opinion because George was a hero one minute and a monster the next.

[Host 2]

She changed public opinion. I was like, I don't know about that. This story's insane. This guy's crazy and smug and inappropriate.

[Host 1]

She's a journalist who reported the facts. People get to decide on their own, Kevin.

[Host 2]

She goes, well, maybe he was a great principal, but his actions had consequences and we reported all of them. That's how we roll.

[Host 1]

I absolutely agree. You report facts.

[Host 2]

Because her point is like, well, this has to be bigger than one guy. Like, how did this happen? Could it happen again? And where is the school board?

[Host 1]

Well, and also the headline of her article is hypnosis, Suicide and haunting Questions. That's exactly what happened here. Like, everything about that headline makes sense.

[Host 2]

Yeah, those are all things that happened, right?

[Host 1]

She's not on the wrong side of history. She's hunting questions. Exactly.

[Host 2]

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[Host 1]

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[Host 2]

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[Host 1]

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[Host 1]

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[Host 2]

I was just going to say that. I'm not kidding. That just pops into my head like, oh, the minty fresh. So her article, like, kind of made this all blow up. Because this is something that begs a lot of questions.

[Host 1]

Of course.

[Host 2]

Right? So Shelby is another reporter and she says there was a lot of secondhand information in air quotes. She says, you can really see how the truth can get away from you. And I'm like, I understand how people. Because I think the people who think that this guy is blameless, I am not one of them.

[Host 1]

No.

[Host 2]

But their argument is, well, no one forced them to do this. You can't hypnotize someone to do something bad. You can't hypnotize. And I'm like, right, Is There nuance anywhere.

[Host 1]

The thing about it is, take all of that out of this. This man was acting illegally. We're going to get that all in this episode. What he was doing was inappropriate. It was against the law. It against any code of ethics. Like, he was acting way out of bounds that no one's charging him with murder. I get it. But, like, he needs to be held accountable for his actions of abusing these students.

[Host 2]

But people, you know, like, People magazine and the stories all over the world because they love the, like, hypnosis angle.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

And I'm just like, can. Can people stop and think for two seconds about what this does to the families and the loved ones?

[Host 1]

Like, they just are never gonna care. Like, you know what I mean? They just don't.

[Host 2]

Can they have, like, a second of peace?

[Host 1]

And it can happen to any of us. It could happen to them. It could happen to writing the article for People magazine. Like, it's like, we are all. This could happen to anybody. But the media's never gonna care.

[Host 2]

They never give a shit.

[Host 1]

It's awful.

[Host 2]

So it's May 2011. In May 2011, Dr. Kinney was put on administrative leave. And I think it's because the first story came out about the hypnosis, and the school district was like, we should probably do something.

[Guest or Interviewee 1]

I don't know where that directive came.

[Host 2]

From, but I'm sure they were all on the same page with, let's just get rid of this. And it's graduation. And so there's like, again, like, two sides have been formed, but it really.

[Host 1]

The sides are the families of the three dead kids and everybody else.

[Host 2]

So, like. Because then it's like, does anyone even feel like celebrating? Like, everyone's grieving and trying to make sense.

[Host 1]

All they care about is that their beloved principal isn't going to be there for their graduation. This makes no sense to me now. I understand. And we say this all the time. We've got the hindsight of the documentary. I get it.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

When you're living through this in real time and you. Maybe you didn't even know the kids that died. And it. It's, you know, rumor and innuendo and everyone, you know, like, I can understand how in the moment, you might be like, no, why are they pinning this on him? It's hypnosis. Whatever. All these years later, I think we need to be able to zoom out and say, 29 years, no deaths.

[Host 2]

Right.

[Host 1]

One year, three deaths.

[Host 2]

But I also am not feeling any. I'm not hearing any empathy or compassion, like, from Kathy, who's a parent of two students who did the hypnosis.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yes.

[Host 2]

And she went on the news defending the former principal, like, well, my Stevie graduated the year he was supposed to graduate. He got to walk across the stage. Can everyone stop making absolutely everything about themselves for five seconds?

[Host 1]

I Now, here's where I'm gonna go back on myself for just a second. I think this man is a piece of shit. He needs to go to jail for the rest of his life. But I do. Kathy. I understand a little bit where Kathy is coming from. Not defending this guy, but. But saying two things can be true. Like, he did bad things and these kids died. However, the thing that he did for my son was kind of a miracle.

[Host 2]

See, I'd love it if she said the first half of that, but she doesn't.

[Host 1]

Because remember Steve, he was like a. AKA douchebag, AKA asshole. Like, he's here.

[Host 2]

This kid was cracking beers during his interview.

[Host 1]

Literally. The other guy was vaping. This kid was really, really struggling. And we learn that he went to the principal for help with something called the fcat, which is standardized test. You have to pass in Florida, apparently, in order to graduate. And you can only take it so many times. He had taken it four times. He was gonna take it one more time. And if he didn't pass it, he was not going to graduate high school. So he goes to the principal to say, can you help me? Can you hypnotize me to put me in such a state that will make me be able to take the test that will pass?

[Host 2]

And we see the session. There he is with his head in this adult's lap.

[Host 1]

Yes, 100%.

[Host 2]

And this guy's hand on his head, moving his head around in his lap, running. The fucking principal is running his fingers through a kid's hair. And it's really gross.

[Host 1]

It's really fucking gross. But we also learned that this guy Steven was really suffering. He tried to kill himself a couple of times. And the principal is just learning about this kid's mental health struggles now. So, like, he's dealing with this kid. He's trying to help this kid. He's getting into this kid's psyche, not knowing that this kid is suicidal, potentially like Wesley, potentially like Britney. Luckily, this kid doesn't kill himself. And Steven, watching the video of his session with the principal now, it's like, I look.

[Guest or Interviewee 1]

I look back at this, and this man just wanted to help. I see myself as the troubled douchebag. And he still didn't judge me or nothing.

[Host 1]

Just wanted to Help me sobbing about how much it helped him. I understand that that can be true. Like, I really do feel kids who did get something positive out of the session with this guy, but however, three kids also died.

[Host 2]

Right.

[Host 1]

You know what I mean?

[Host 2]

I. I do. I. 100%.

[Host 1]

And so it's like I hear what the mom is saying about how. But what you're saying is true. She's not acknowledging that three students who also did this work with him also died.

[Host 2]

Right. No one's talking about that.

[Host 1]

Right.

[Host 2]

And. But he says, I felt really comfortable because this whole thing with the head and the lap and the, like, fingers through his hair. His. Steven's mot is in this session.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yeah. Yes.

[Host 2]

And the principal says, I felt really comfortable doing this because his mother was there. I would not have let him put his head on my leg if we were alone.

[Host 1]

We see 100 videos of boys's heads in his crotch with no parent present.

[Host 2]

And I'm like, okay, know that we.

[Host 1]

Were going to see these videos.

[Host 2]

My question is, and I'm really asking, what is the reasoning behind the head in the lap?

[Host 1]

Right.

[Host 2]

Someone explain it to me. Because explain to me why that has to happen for it to work. Because.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

If the former principal is saying that it never would have happened if they were alone. Lie.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Then there must be another way to do this.

[Host 1]

Right. I mean, you put the kid in a chair and you put together chair against a wall and you put a pillow on it. Like, solved it.

[Host 2]

Like, I did it.

[Host 1]

I'm a hypnotist now.

[Host 2]

Oh, my God.

[Host 1]

Do you want to try?

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

I know.

[Host 2]

So I just think that that's a question I have.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yes.

[Host 2]

What's. Because the lying, the provable lies is not helping this guy. Like, he's not helping him at all.

[Host 1]

Yes.

[Host 2]

At all.

[Host 1]

And frankly, he's lucky that Steven didn't go home and kill himself.

[Host 2]

Yes.

[Host 1]

If Steven hadn't passed that test, we'd probably be having a very different conversation.

[Host 2]

I agree.

[Host 1]

The way that Brittany didn't pass her test.

[Host 2]

I agree. You know, and so we're at graduation, Everything's a mess.

[Guest or Interviewee 1]

The kids got together and made an appointment to go see the superintendent and said that they really wanted me to be at graduation. And I remember the senior saying, we're not going to walk unless he's there.

[Host 2]

If the former principal can't give them their diploma, they're not going to walk across that stage. So now it's like there's no nuance for anything and there's no empathy for the grieving Families and the kids who aren't with us anymore. And this guy is, quote, a hero.

[Host 1]

Right.

[Host 2]

He's not a. Do you know what I mean?

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yes.

[Host 2]

So now, on one side, there are people like, I want him in prison for murder or he's a hero, and there's no middle ground.

[Host 1]

And, well, I mean, like, correct me if I'm wrong, but the people who want him in prison are three families. The families of the dead kids. And everybody else wants him celebrated and back for graduation or they're not walking.

[Host 2]

Right.

[Host 1]

And that makes no sense.

[Host 2]

No sense, because the bottom line is this guy was extremely inappropriate.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yes.

[Host 2]

Like, he was a high school principal who had no authority to do hypnosis on minors, of all people, to fix all of their problems. This was not his job. He was not qualified or licensed for any of it. He is not a trained counselor. He's not a trained psychiatrist, psychologist. He's not a medical professional.

[Host 1]

Right.

[Host 2]

Like, all of this, even today, is all about him and how he's treated unfairly. You brought your hobby to work.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yes.

[Host 2]

And ripped kids out of class under the manipulation and, dare I say, grooming.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yes.

[Host 2]

To. For. To monetize their shit. And it was never about that.

[Host 1]

Because if we. You have to remember, he was like. He was. He was recording all of these and keeping notes on these kids for his books and audio tapes.

[Host 2]

And that wasn't in the permission slip.

[Host 1]

I wanted to tell a story here because there is. I talked about a teacher in the last episode that I thought had an inappropriate, like, sort of friendship with the kids. There was a different teacher at my school who was equally beloved. He got in trouble for making point. It was found out that during the summers he was making pornography with students. Well, we found out later that there was one girl who had been a student of his who I think was in a video later when she was an adult. But, no, not with students from ours. He would go to California in the summer and make pornography there with legal.

[Host 2]

Adults and be on a real set where everyone's consenting.

[Host 1]

Correct. Now, he, I believe, which I know is an issue.

[Host 2]

I understand. I'm just asking.

[Host 1]

But this was in the 90s, right? So when this got found out in my school, he either got fired or was put on leave or whatever, and everything was the same. There was walkouts and protests.

[Host 2]

Was he showing the porn to kids?

[Host 1]

No, it was a secret.

[Host 2]

How did we find out?

[Host 1]

Somebody found it. You know what I mean? Somebody found it. I think he was using his regular name in, like, the credits of the of the videos. He wasn't in them. He was making them or producing them or whatever. But, like, my point here is I think sometimes students want a cause to fight for. And like, in this instance, it's the guy that everyone is saying is a bad guy, but, like, they knew him to be a good guy and he's just trying to help people and you can't make anybody kill themselves. Whereas, like, in my school, it was like. Like he directed porn and. But he, like, didn't have any.

[Host 2]

Like, nobody knew about it. He wasn't telling the kids, he wasn't using the kids.

[Host 1]

Right. But whether or not, like, you know, that's an appropriate thing for a high school teacher to be doing. Whatever. My point is, Jess, there was like the walkouts and the demonstrations and the same thing at my high school for this thing.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

And I think sometimes kids just want a cause to fight for.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

You know?

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

That's all.

[Host 2]

What, what, what was your stance on it?

[Host 1]

I remember being sort of agnostic. I think I had graduated by the time this came out. Alison, remind me, did I had I graduated by them? I can't remember. But I didn't really care. I was sort of like, he didn't.

[Host 2]

Everything was struggling to find the.

[Host 1]

Yeah, but I mean, it was like a moral thing. And that's like why he got like, let go or whatever.

[Host 2]

You want to talk about everyone's morals?

[Host 1]

Honestly, Truly.

[Host 2]

Right. Like, that's a very slippery slope, everybody.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yes.

[Host 1]

I mean, a million percent.

[Host 2]

So.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

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I mean, it's so good. All those mushroom coffees.

[Host 2]

Yeah, I love the IQ mixtapes just because, like, me too. It's easier to drink more water. But Mike is like really into marathon training now, so he is like living by these.

[Host 1]

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[Host 2]

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[Host 2]

And you're reading all the terms. Yeah, of course.

[Host 1]

Oh, should I. Oh, they are.

[Host 2]

No, but they text you.

[Host 1]

I'm just saying I got scared again.

[Host 2]

No, no, no. You just got to see the terms for details.

[Host 1]

It's fine for details.

[Host 2]

My thing also is like, even today it's all about him. He's treated unfairly. It's not about the kids. Even like today in his den as he's talking to us. Right?

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yes.

[Host 2]

Because I'm like, could Marcus have been on medication after the dentist? Could he have been? Sure. Like, maybe. I'm just. We don't. Because we don't know. I don't know for sure.

[Host 1]

I mean, if he really just got a cavity filled, I'd be shocked to find out.

[Host 2]

Could his football injuries have played a part?

[Host 1]

Right.

[Host 2]

Could Wesley and Brittany have been depressed?

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yes.

[Host 2]

Like, but this guy should not have been engaging with minor in any way. It doesn't. Like, like, at some point it starts to matter so much more to me early on, before any of the tragedy struck. He shouldn't have been doing any of this at all.

[Host 1]

Because we're con. We're mad that these kids are dead. But that's not the thing that he should be in trouble for. He should be in trouble for practicing without a license.

[Host 2]

But that's it.

[Host 1]

That simple.

[Host 2]

That's it.

[Host 1]

I'm. I think that his practicing without a license led to these kids deaths.

[Host 2]

Right.

[Host 1]

But I understand that we're not going to prosecute him for that.

[Host 2]

Sure.

[Host 1]

Prosecute the living shit out of him for practicing without a fucking license 70 times over. Exactly.

[Host 2]

That's. That's what this case is 100%. So anyway, everyone's throwing a fit over this hero and it worked and they bring it back. The district gave in and he's allowed to be at graduation. The headline is students collaborate to bring the principal back for Graduation. Like, shut up. Because on the other side, I didn't.

[Guest or Interviewee 1]

Want to be there. I didn't want to be a part of their graduation.

[Host 2]

I know that. I did not want him at our graduation. That's where I felt on that, that one. There are students who didn't want him there. The friends of the. The students who have died. Right.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

So graduation's over. The former principal leaves and never comes back. Okay. Keith Steele.

[Host 1]

Oh my God.

[Host 2]

Is a private investigator hired by the school district. He publishes the Steel Report. Where is that show? I want like a noir private eye and I'm like, steel Report. Hbo, make it happen.

[Host 1]

This isn't like the Steele dossier guy, right? You know what I mean?

[Host 2]

Is it?

[Host 1]

I don't think so. I think it's. I think we would know if it was the same guy.

[Host 2]

The Steel Report.

[Host 1]

But the steel report, 112 pages and it' public record. So the school, he looked, he investigated what happened and published a whole thing about it.

[Host 2]

And the journalists are like, that's pretty awesome because that's a primary document and we can use the shit out of these 112 pages.

[Host 1]

Exactly.

[Host 2]

So let's dive into it. It all started in the weight room because that's not unsettling at all. The boys weight room. What is the principal doing? And I don't know. And principal is like, if you have every right to be in the weight room. I understand. I just. This guy is like totally using his authority.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

In a really manipulative, creepy way.

[Host 1]

Well, what happens was there was an injury in the weight involving a student. And they say it was a fairly serious. And we're gonna learn that he dislocated both of his shoulders.

[Host 2]

I don't understand like why there wasn't anyone there to spot him. And I don't mean another 15 year old kid.

[Host 1]

It was like that in my high school they would let the athletes go and work out like in the weight room without like a coach or whatever were there.

[Host 2]

Oh my God.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

That's just feels like a recipe for disaster.

[Host 1]

Probably don't let that happen anymore. But like the 90s were wild.

[Host 2]

Oh my God.

[Host 1]

So this kid has a really serious injury. The nurse is there trying to perform an evaluation on prior to EMS arriving.

[Host 2]

And he beat her there and was trying to get her away from the kid. And she was adamant about it, that she was the school nurse and that she had a right to be there.

[Host 1]

Kenny. The principal shows up, literally throws the nurse out of the way, and is, like, down on his hands and knees working on this student.

[Host 2]

So the n. They have like, a walkie talkie system.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yes.

[Host 2]

The nurse was paged on the walkie talkie. The principal hears this.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yes.

[Host 2]

Races to the weight room to beat her there. Y and intervene, and then proceeds to take over the entire operation. And someone says he was actually trying, physically trying to get her away from the student. She's the nurse.

[Host 1]

And the principal is trying to get this boy with two dislocated shoulders.

[Host 2]

Listen to my voice. Look into my eyes.

[Host 1]

Oh, my God. Trying to. Tapping him on. To physically touching him. Tapping him on the forehead. The fucking touching, the touching, the touching. Trying to get him to hypnotize him out of his pain.

[Host 2]

You're going to be fine. Any discomfort you're feeling is going to start to fade into the background. The noise. Nurse is livid. And she's been asking what we've been asking this whole time. Who do you think you are?

[Host 1]

There's a protocol. There's a protocol to be followed when something like this happens and she's trying to do it.

[Host 2]

And the fact that he ran.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yes.

[Host 2]

To get there first and intervene is like, what the fuck is wrong with you? Your stupid book to sell on Amazon for $11. You're fucking loser.

[Host 1]

You can get your hands on this.

[Host 2]

Athlete like you loser. Free loser.

[Host 1]

So now we meet. I love this guy. His name is Wayne Beckman. He seems like absolutely no fucking fun, but he's here to do exactly what we need him to do.

[Host 2]

Oh, my God, Wade. Because. Because the nurs this guy. Yes, because the former principal claims that the nurse never said a word in the moment and was just like, oh, go ahead, put your hands on this young boy.

[Host 1]

Meanwhile, we're told that she's screaming her fucking head off, being like, this is my job. What the hell are you doing? Your hands off this boy.

[Host 2]

Lies on lies on lies on lies. And it's. It's inappropriate all across the board. And stop touching the kids.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

So, Wayne.

[Host 1]

Oh, my God.

[Host 2]

What he does is he investigates unlicensed activity.

[Host 1]

Exactly. He works for the Florida Department of Health. He seems like absolutely no fun at a barbecue, but he's. God damn it, he's here to do his job.

[Host 2]

And I think he's a northeasterner because he says he goes to hypnotize somebody, especially when you have all these injuries over there, it just seems. It's. It's bizarre. And I'm like, where are you from, Wayne?

[Host 1]

Oh, he's like, me retired to Florida.

[Host 2]

What's going on?

[Host 1]

I love Disney World so much. Maybe I'll move there. I love Disney World.

[Host 2]

Are you going to go?

[Host 1]

I. Maybe I'm like a Disney adult now. I got the pins and everything.

[Host 2]

Is Daisy, like, doesn't Daisy want to go?

[Host 1]

Oh, we're planning a whole trip for next summer. Like, we're like, I'm already, like, I'm in the. Only in the beginning stages of planning this trip. I like, it changed my life. Fam. Are you Disney adults? Get in the group. Let's be friends.

[Host 2]

Oh, my God.

[Host 1]

Oh, my God.

[Host 2]

So what the former principal, we learned from Wayne. Thank God. Odd. The voice of reason. The former principal, what he's doing is in violation of, like, all the Florida statutes, a lot of Florida statutes, because he's not licensed to do any of this.

[Guest or Interviewee 1]

He says the Florida department of health is always on the lookout for anybody who's performing as a healthcare professional, and they're not licensed. Whether you're a doctor, dentist, nutritionist, a pharmacist. If you are performing activities as a healthcare professional and you are not licensed, survival. Violation of the Florida statutes.

[Host 1]

It is a violation of the Florida statute.

[Host 2]

In other words, you need to know what the hell you're doing, but you.

[Host 1]

Also need to be. So this is what, like, it was when Wayne showed up that I was like, okay, this is the legal argument against this guy. I get it. I understand. We're not getting him for the murders. I know that. Sorry. The deaths. Oh, my God. The murders. The murders.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

We're not getting him on those. But this guy is operating outside the law.

[Host 2]

Yeah. And he goes, I don't believe Wayne says. Because he gets wind of everything we've been screaming about. And he goes, believe in coincidences. And now I'm going to find out exactly what's going on. You go get him, Wayne.

[Host 1]

You've got hypnosis, a car accident, and two suicides. I don't believe in coincidences.

[Host 2]

And he says, this guy is definitely not a health care professional licensed in the state of Florida. And we cut to the deposition. The former principal is like, yeah, what of it? He admits he's not licensed to practice anything. Not medicine, not surgery, not psychiatry. He's never had any, quote, formal education.

[Host 1]

And this is where we learn that everybody at the school was convinced by his title of doctor.

[Host 2]

So you can be A doctor in anything?

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yes.

[Host 2]

To quote Mad Men. Because they're back. Don says when you have a high degree in any field, they call you a doctor. It's from the Middle Ages. Right, that's. That's true.

[Host 1]

How high, though? Like a doctorate?

[Host 2]

Well, it doesn't always apply to something medical is my point.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

So, like, you can have a doctorate in philosophy or education or math or history, or call you doctor.

[Host 1]

That's fine. I'm fine with that.

[Host 2]

So I'm like, well, what about this guy then?

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yes.

[Host 2]

Because if you can be a doctorate in a lot of things, what did he choose?

[Guest or Interviewee 1]

I did a doctoral program from Nova Southeastern, which was Saturdays for three years, and I earned my doctorate in educational leadership. Okay. He's a doctor of education, I guess. But that doesn't mean that he's allowed to perform health care.

[Host 1]

Cool.

[Host 2]

So he's a doctor of education, I guess. Like, so what? He's still not allowed to perform healthcare. He's not licensed.

[Host 1]

Hundred percent.

[Host 2]

He is not a licensed or qualified healthcare professional. Wayne's like, get the fuck out of here.

[Host 1]

But it's like, I think what we're also being told is that the reason why some of these parents allowed their kids to go through this hypnosis sessions with him is because he had the doctor title and they were conflating that with medical doctor.

[Host 2]

And so, like, I do think. I just want to say, for the record.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

I think it's weird if you only think, like, a real doctor or someone in the medical field. Like, I think that's kind. Like, I just disagree because we get a lot of shitty tone here.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

But when it comes to mental health or health care of any kind, that I agree with.

[Host 2]

So, like, if you went to Saturday school for three years for your doctorate in philosophy, like, great, great. But he's using this Dr. Kenny.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yes.

[Host 2]

Thing to manipulate people and, like, let assumptions be made, and he's doing it wrong.

[Host 1]

I was so surprised to hear that people didn't know that you could be called doctor and not be a medical doctor.

[Host 2]

Right. And even if there were, is that.

[Host 1]

Like a fucking elitist Northeast thing?

[Host 2]

Because one of the journalists is like, oh, come on. He's not a doctor. And I'm like, don't do that. Because he did that with Joe Biden, too. Fuck that.

[Host 1]

I know. Well, right, right.

[Host 2]

Do you know what I mean? Don't do that.

[Host 1]

No. But I do think that we're all saying the same thing. He's not a medical doctor.

[Host 2]

And what I think he was also as I understand. Sounds to me like he was discouraging any other care that was wasn't him since he basically threw the nurse out of the room. So that he can do it is.

[Host 1]

Identifying a person that he thinks has Tourette's but not sending them to be properly evaluated.

[Host 2]

Or depression.

[Host 1]

Right.

[Host 2]

Or suicidal ideation.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yes.

[Host 2]

Like that's, that's to me where it becomes really, really bad too. Because it's not just on paper that he's practicing without a license.

[Host 1]

Right.

[Host 2]

If he's disco, which it sounds to me, he is discouraging people from getting any other real help. Yes, that's a major, major, major.

[Host 1]

Yes.

[Host 2]

Because remember how he was like trained in hypnosis? He wasn't. He went to a five day course. Yes, the conference room at the Motel 6 down by the airport.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

He did.

[Host 1]

Under oath. Under oath. He says that he's qualified to determine what kind of kids need hypnosis. Because he worked with kids for 30 years. No, that's not how it works.

[Host 2]

Because he says like he's the definition of unlicensed, yet he's diagnosing kids with Tourette's. Because he's an expert. Because he knew a kid with Tourette's one time.

[Host 1]

Exactly.

[Host 2]

And then convinced himself that he cured like none happened.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yes.

[Host 2]

Like get him away from kids and stop touching them.

[Guest or Interviewee 1]

Right.

[Host 1]

So we're back with Dr. Julian. He's the clinical hypnotherapist and he's also a neuro linguistic psychology trainer, whatever that means. This guy is really fucking schooled up. Right. He's the guy that like decides if you need hypnosis or not.

[Host 2]

And he defines it.

[Host 1]

Right. He says if you do medical hypnosis without the referral of a doctor, then you are violating the rules. That is practicing therapy without a license.

[Host 2]

He said hypnosis is when the subconscious mind is in the dominant position. You're freeing yourself from the binds of your conscious mind. He was the one who told us before that like if hypnosis doesn't cure your pain, it just makes you not think about it. That is dangerous, that causes bigger injuries. Like we can't just keep ignoring shit.

[Host 1]

And he explains how dangerous hypnosis is if you don't know what you're doing. He says once a person agrees to be hypnotized, that opens the door and allows us to access their subconscious mind. And once we access their subconscious mind, we offer suggestions.

[Host 2]

It sounds like you need more than a five day course in a conference room.

[Host 1]

100%.

[Host 2]

When you're dealing with what can go.

[Host 1]

Wrong is that like, kids can then end up going and killing themselves. This is what happens. He's talking about a hypnotic technique.

[Guest or Interviewee 1]

And there's a hypnotic technique called hypnotic regression which allows us to go back into that filing cabinet, so to speak, and open up any one of those files and re. Experience that particular experience as it was remembered. And anything that that person saw, anything that that person heard is. Is all there.

[Host 1]

So the person re experiences that particular experience as it was remembered. He says anything that person saw or heard is all there. Imagine your most traumatic childhood memory and some fucking dirtbag who studied this for five minutes. And by the way, he studied like, the party clown version of this is now taking you back to your most disturbing childhood memory and needling around in there with his fucking fingers in your head.

[Host 2]

You know what he's doing? He's performing experiments on minors.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yes.

[Host 2]

Because this is. This is for his data. Data research for his books, for his. This. He doesn't know what the fuck he's doing. Yes, he's convinced everyone that he does, but he doesn't. And this is why he's filming everything, to learn from it.

[Host 1]

We're not guessing that he's doing this. We hear him doing one of these regressive sessions with a student. He's taking the student back to this night that this student heard and then witnessed somebody in his home be shot and killed.

[Host 2]

It's a murder suicide that he's describing in his home.

[Host 1]

And this, this guy who studied literally how to be a fucking party hypnotist is sitting with this kid, regressing him back to this memory and like, trying to, like, give him some sort of, like, therapy session. He has no, no right doing this.

[Host 2]

He's feeding him. And the principal is feeding this kid information. He's sort of like, pushing the story along. He's encouraging him to get angry.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yes.

[Host 2]

He's encouraging the child to get violent. He's really, really, really reinforcing everything negative that Dr. Julian just told us not to do.

[Host 1]

So it's not.

[Host 2]

What does this have to do with better grades?

[Host 1]

And it's not just about test.

[Host 2]

It's about his study, his research. He's trying to make a name for himself. He's trying to, like, break the mold here.

[Host 1]

Yes.

[Host 2]

And he's using kids to do it.

[Host 1]

And three kids died.

[Host 2]

Travel down the road Back again, girl.

[Host 1]

Pretty litter is back. House the macaroni.

[Host 2]

Macaroni is great. And Ashley's apartment is also great because it does not smell like kitty litter because she uses pretty Litter.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

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[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yeah.

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[Host 2]

Okay. Pretty litter cannot detect every feline health issue or prevent or diagnose diseases. A diagnosis can only come from a licensed veterinarian. Terms and conditions apply. See site for details. Dr. Julian says you can't hypnotize someone to hurt themselves. Your suggestions will be rejected because you have to want it.

[Guest or Interviewee 1]

Now there's probably a caveat to that. Is it possible if someone has a mind to hurt themselves in some way? An idea can become. Become bigger as a result of. Of a hypnotic event.

[Host 2]

It can become bigger as a result of a hypnotic event. So hypnosis, we're told, can result in more anxiety.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yes.

[Host 2]

And more depression, which is dangerous. Now I. This is the study I remember I told you about the study I found.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yes, yes.

[Host 2]

So the rational part of our brains is not fully developed until we're at least 25. Right. So this is, for some of us.

[Host 1]

It never fully develops.

[Host 2]

Tell me about it. So a study from the University of Rochester Medical center says that recent research has found that adult and teen brains work differently. So adults think with the prefrontal cortex, which is like the rational part. Teenagers are all emotional part. They process information with the emotional part.

[Host 1]

So it says, don't I know it.

[Host 2]

Right.

[Host 1]

I'm living with it.

[Host 2]

So it says in teens, brains, the connections between the emotional part of the brain and the decision making center are still developing and not always at the same rate.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

That's why when teens have overwhelming emotional input, they can't explain later what they were thinking. They weren't thinking as much as they were feeling.

[Host 1]

Right.

[Host 2]

That is so dangerous.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yes.

[Host 1]

And the bottom line is this. You know more than this guy does. You know what I mean? Just reading that one study. You know more than this guy. This guy's just getting in there.

[Host 2]

Or I'm not trying to manipulate it.

[Host 1]

Right. You know, and the way that everybody just allowed this to happen, it is unbelievable.

[Host 2]

Well, except for Wayne. So Wayne is the guy who's, like. Who's researching unlicensed activity. He's hard enough.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yeah, yeah.

[Host 2]

He's like the principal guy is violating every law and statute he possibly can. And he reports this guy to the police.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yes.

[Host 2]

And the prosecutor files criminal charges against the principal. And he can go to prison for up to a year if found guilty.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yes.

[Host 2]

Because no matter what you think of this guy or how responsible he is, the fact remains he was practicing health care without a license. That's a fact.

[Host 1]

That is what I'm talking about.

[Host 2]

And you can't do that. And he says as much on the deposition. He just thinks he's better and smarter than everybody else. And he's not.

[Host 1]

He's not. And so we meet the principal's attorney, this guy Mark Zimmerman. Right. I know Mark. Mark is in a little bit over his head, but he says, Dr. Ken.

[Guest or Interviewee 1]

Going to be facing felony charges of practicing health care without a license. They could have charged a count for every student that he performed hypnotherapy on.

[Host 1]

He could have served five years consecutively.

[Guest or Interviewee 1]

For each of those.

[Host 1]

Five years for each student he worked with.

[Host 2]

Right. 75 of them.

[Host 1]

Not enough time for me, so.

[Host 2]

But what he's like. Well, no, because he didn't practice, quote, health care without a license. Now, the lawyer is going to try to split hairs here.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yeah, yeah.

[Host 2]

That's a felony. But what the principal did, my client, was perform hypnosis without, quote, proper supervision, and that's just a misdemeanor.

[Host 1]

Now, we learned that Florida has its own laws for hypnosis.

[Host 2]

Of course it does.

[Host 1]

I can't move there fast enough, as.

[Host 2]

Shelby, the reporter says. Of course. Because where else? I mean, Shelby.

[Host 1]

Florida. You continue to surprise me. Your thunderstorms are gorgeous. Your theme parks are. They're my whole heart now.

[Host 2]

Hippos, girl, they've got hippos.

[Host 1]

But they've also got those, like, snake and alligator pets.

[Host 2]

I know. I saw that screenshot from before.

[Host 1]

That's a lot. That's a lot of wildlife.

[Host 2]

They're so cool. You can like study them though. That's so cool.

[Host 1]

Why would you. You know what I mean?

[Host 2]

To learn about them.

[Host 1]

I. I guess and.

[Host 2]

And become friends with them and send them after your enemies.

[Host 1]

The first day I live in Florida and I wake up and there's an alligator in the backyard. I'm probably moving right back.

[Host 2]

That's scary. Talk about fast. That's why you run in zigzags. Alligators in a straight line. I've never seen them run 100%. That's why you know about running zigzag.

[Host 1]

You mean one hundo P?

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Okay, great.

[Host 2]

Do you know about running zigzags?

[Host 1]

I do, but I don't think I'd remember to do that. I think I would not be.

[Host 2]

Cuz they're so low to the ground, so they'll follow your feet. So if you run in a zigzag, they're so long that that slows them down.

[Host 1]

All I can hear is that running sound in my head. I hear that. Do it.

[Host 2]

Do bitter pattern little alligator feet.

[Host 1]

Oh my God. That would be running a zigzag. So scary.

[Host 2]

They're fast.

[Host 1]

Okay.

[Host 2]

All right. Forget Florida. We'll shelled Florida. Okay, so there's this hypnosis law that says that it needs to be done under the guidance of a doctor.

[Host 1]

What do you think was like, what do you think made this hypnosis law go into law?

[Host 2]

I almost don't want to know.

[Host 1]

I know.

[Host 2]

Like, I think that's really scary that someone can just be hypnosis.

[Host 1]

Some charlatan. I know.

[Host 2]

You know, I don't even know, but I think it's what we were saying before. Like I think you have to want it to work for it to work.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yeah, right.

[Host 1]

Isn't that the one too many nights of those like X rated hypnotists. Like really going too far. Like we need a law over here.

[Host 2]

Makes my scary dark mind go to like the worst places.

[Host 1]

The 90s were wild. The 90s on Cape Cod. The Mill Hill Club. Forget it.

[Host 2]

Oh my God.

[Host 1]

The X rated. I can almost think of the guy's name. Like I can hear the ad on the radio for the X rated hypnotist. Like it was a thing that they advertised.

[Host 2]

Whoa.

[Host 1]

I know.

[Host 2]

Do you think we can get that ad somehow?

[Host 1]

I'm sure we can. I'm sure we can.

[Host 2]

So this law says that he needs.

[Guest or Interviewee 1]

To be under the guidance of. Of the doctor, meaning the doctor is well aware he's treating him and that he's okay with it. And the doctor believes that he has your credentials to perform hypnosis properly.

[Host 2]

The hypnotist needs to meet all the criteria and have the proper credentials.

[Host 1]

Now, Florida, this is a law I can absolutely get behind.

[Host 2]

Totally.

[Host 1]

Like one day a week the gays should be led into Disney for free. And just them.

[Host 2]

Okay.

[Host 1]

Another law I could get behind.

[Host 2]

Oh, God.

[Host 1]

But I do think that like this law is. Was a good one, you know, of course.

[Host 2]

And clearly this living it.

[Host 1]

He was not doing that. Like, obviously he was not in consult with any of these kids doctors.

[Host 2]

Right. So the principal has a choice to make. Get charged with a felony and face a jury or plead guilty to two second degree misdemeanor charges because he violated Florida's hypnosis law and three kids died.

[Host 1]

And we learned that if he gets convicted of the felony, he loses his pension.

[Host 2]

Well, that's the whole thing, right?

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

So that.

[Host 1]

Sorry, did I jump to the punchline?

[Host 2]

No. Well, I'm just saying, like he's. What he's worried about is his retirement money. Because in Florida, if you're an educator convicted of a felony, you lose your retirement. And he doesn't want to risk that.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

No.

[Host 2]

So he ends up getting one year probation and 50 hours of public service work.

[Host 1]

I was like waiting for the on screen taxes said that like his public service work was like doing hypnosis for people at a senior center. I mean, you know what I mean?

[Host 2]

Like, that's the thing. Because the parents of these students and some of their like friends and family want a criminal trial.

[Host 1]

I want a criminal trial.

[Host 2]

Right. Like, because this guy got his full retirement, gets to live out the rest of his. Exactly. In a gorgeous lake house, kids. And like, I'm sure he could still do hypnosis. Right. Especially in a different state. Like, seriously, consequences. And someone's like, this guy's life is like totally over. Is it?

[Host 1]

No.

[Host 2]

At 52 years old, he got his full pension. His year of probation is long gone. That was over 10 years ago. He's living in a gorgeous lake house and he's got a nice bed and breakfast and a stained glass art studio in the Catalina.

[Host 1]

I will say running.

[Host 2]

Tell me once again about his ruined life. He's fine.

[Host 1]

If golden palace taught us nothing. It's that like, running a bed and breakfast is not what you think.

[Host 2]

Not all it's cracked up.

[Host 1]

Absolutely not.

[Host 2]

But like, it sounds like he's living a life that a lot of people would absolutely love.

[Host 1]

Totally.

[Host 2]

And, like, did he have to deal with the death of his teenage child? No, certainly didn't. He's doing fine. His life is over. No, it's not. So he has, like, this B and B. Yeah. It's permanently closed.

[Host 1]

It is.

[Host 2]

But the stained glass business is alive and well. You can Google it. I'm not going to. You can Google it.

[Host 1]

Stained glass business.

[Host 2]

There he is in the picture on the website.

[Host 1]

Oh, my God.

[Host 2]

Stained glass is beautiful. How?

[Host 1]

I totally agree.

[Host 2]

So now episode four, the outcome.

[Host 1]

Now he starts saying, we. Is he married? Does he have a partner? Partner. What's his status?

[Host 2]

I don't know. I don't know about that.

[Host 1]

Yeah, I don't know either. So we learn in episode four, the three mothers of the students who died got together to do something. Of course they did.

[Host 2]

Of course. And they realized they can't go after him personally, so they want to focus on going up against the school board.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yes.

[Host 2]

And because the families are like, everyone knew he was doing this. Like, and we. This is when we learned. The families say it was widely known in the district about Dr. Kenny's hypnosis. Since sessions, the district told investigators they verbally warned Dr. Kenney to stop three times. But the families say they never followed through. This guy was verbally warned multiple times to stop what he was doing.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yes.

[Host 2]

And so I just feel insane. Like, this is so inappropriate. Like, what is conversation number three? Like, Yeah, I know.

[Host 1]

Because that's even what Kenny himself says. He's like, the lawsuit said, if the school district didn't know that I was doing it, they should have known. And if they did know, then they should have stopped me. Right. And, like, the thing is, it seems like they did know, and they just didn't care that much.

[Host 2]

In what world is it okay to force your personal hobby on unaccompanied minors in the middle of their school day?

[Host 1]

My God.

[Host 2]

And what world is that?

[Host 1]

I'll be throwing pottery all day long if that was the world I could live in.

[Host 2]

Right. I don't understand.

[Host 1]

We got those little wheels.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

You know what I mean?

[Host 2]

And also, was he making money off of this? I know $11 on Amazon is nothing, but, like, that's the goal, right? That was his goal.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yes.

[Host 2]

So, like, this Steve guy, Steve Cantis, he's in charge of all the principals.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

He was at the school board, and he totally, 100% knew that this was happening.

[Host 1]

100%.

[Host 2]

Because Shelby the reporter is like, this wasn't even an open secret because it wasn't a secret. Everyone was talking about this and like.

[Host 1]

We'Re told that everybody knew that he was doing this hypnosis in the psychology class. Like there's a video of it, right? But this can't be. Guy says that he didn't necessarily know that he was doing one on one private sessions. And like honestly that does feel like a little bit of a secret.

[Host 2]

But Steve, the head of all the principals admits to the parents, I personally spoke to George Kenny and told him to stop. And I'm like, okay, well then what happens after that?

[Host 1]

Right?

[Host 2]

The protocol is we're told. And he had told that normally it's a verbal warning and then a written.

[Host 1]

Warning and then dismissal. And I said normally?

[Host 2]

And he said, well that would be the process. And I said, I think protocol is protocol. Not normally. Well, usually that's the protocol. Is it protocol or is it not?

[Host 1]

Right. It was almost like they just kept turning the other cheek or like looking the other way, whatever it is that you say. Because they just, they didn't think it was that bad. They were like, we don't want to fight this guy. He's been here for 30 years at this point.

[Host 2]

He's insufferably smug and he's just going to do it. And anyway, right? So for the first few years of this 2006 to 2009, no permission slips for years. Then the Steve guy.

[Host 1]

That just means that like the parents don't know that their underage boys are going into a private room with this guy where he is filming, making them unconscious and putting their heads in his.

[Host 2]

Crotch, taking them out of class to do it.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yes.

[Host 2]

So then the Steve guy is like, fine, if you're not going to stop, you need to at least have permission slip because we have to cover our asses. This is what the permission slip says. It's a nothing burger. I am the parent of Blank and I give permission for Dr. Kenny to work with my son using hypnosis and hypnotherapy to improve sports performance, standardized testing skills and academic performance. I understand that Dr. Kenny is a certified hypnotherapist and the hypnosis sessions are with our consent and strictly voluntary. The parent signature. Then you have to print your name and the contact number.

[Host 1]

Certified hypnotherapist.

[Host 2]

Is he a certified hypno? I mean unless that five day it doesn't get.

[Host 1]

He's not certified by the fucking whatever Wayne's organization.

[Host 2]

But I wonder if it's certified and not listen license.

[Host 1]

Right?

[Host 2]

That's the case.

[Host 1]

Certified by that, you know, Orlando bag of magic tricks or whatever.

[Host 2]

Because this permission slip is bullshit and super vague. Number one, because in his own deposition he says he's not certified to perform therapy and he needed a doctor's supervision. And he left that out of the wording.

[Host 1]

Right.

[Host 2]

To kids for signatures all the time.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yes.

[Host 2]

Three parents don't always look at what they're signing or they're being lied to, or at 6 in the morning. And you believe your kid.

[Host 1]

Oh.

[Host 2]

When they're like, oh, it's for the track meet. And you sign it. Because every parent who's ever lived has done something like that.

[Host 1]

I am living proof. I mean, I will say I don't know why. I really do read every permission slip. And our kids school and. And like they think it was bad in the 90s. Now it's like, we're having a pizza party on Friday. Please sign this permission slip for Daisy to have pizza. We're having ice cream next Wednesday. Please sign this permission now. I understand there are kids with dietary restrictions and allergies. Like, I get that.

[Host 2]

We need to know. Daisy doesn't have any of those restrictions. And someone forgets the permission slip because everyone has a hundred thousand things going on. She's the only kid who can't have a slice of pizza.

[Host 1]

Totally. And it's like, really? There are 700 permission Sleep slips to sign. But like we. The email says this permission slip is about this thing this guy was clearly trying to hoodwink.

[Host 2]

These parents are telling their kids.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yes.

[Host 2]

What to lie.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Like, wouldn't it be weird if this came back with a signature? I don't know what your parents signature looks like.

[Host 2]

Right. You know, I think everyone knows what the bullshit is.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Meaning the principal.

[Host 1]

I just want to say these permission slips don't matter. Even if the parents know what they are, the parents cannot give a person who does not have the legal authority to do medical treatment the authority to do medical treatment by signing a permission slip. Because there's null and void.

[Host 2]

There's nothing saying I'm going to be filming or I'm going to be conducting my own research. More than that, monetizing does not have.

[Host 1]

The proper licensure to do this. So, like, none of this matters anyway.

[Host 2]

Yeah. That's number one.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yeah, that's it.

[Host 2]

We shouldn't even be talking.

[Host 1]

But.

[Host 2]

Or like Britney's mom, she signed one slip for one session.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yes.

[Host 2]

And that was the session she went to. But it turns out there were many other sessions that she wasn't aware of.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yes.

[Host 1]

Remember, she Was the one that. He's like, I don't even remember helping her. He did it on multiple occasions.

[Host 2]

Yeah. So January 24, 2014, this asshole is deposed. And he's like, it lasted all day and it was very adversarial. And I'm like, it's once again all about him.

[Host 1]

You know what my note under that is? Three kids are dead.

[Host 2]

Answer the question.

[Host 1]

What you think it was going to be like?

[Host 2]

Answer the question. Answer all the questions.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yes.

[Host 2]

So suddenly the case is settled. The parents settle for $600,000, and each family, Marcus's family, Wesley's family, and Britney's family will receive $200,000 each. Which the parents are like. I mean, people kept saying, well, you're. You're doing it for the money. What money? What money? Not to mention, what do you. What amount of money do you put on your kid's life, really? You can't put a price on our.

[Host 1]

The reason that it was that money is because there's a cap on the amount of money that you can get.

[Host 2]

From a school because they call it a, quote, sanctioned place. So there are, like, limitations of how much you can get for that. I had never heard of that before.

[Host 1]

Well, this was. This is all voted on by the people. So, like, I only know about this because I was in a jury where they were asking our opinion on caps for. For awards. And so, like, people want to say that you can't sue a school for $10 million or whatever it is, but, like, there's a cap on this. So that's why this is all the money that they could get.

[Host 2]

And the parents are like, well, they didn't get the criminal trial. They didn't get a civil trial. And the. The dad, Britney's dad, is like, the point wasn't the money. They just. They sort of. They want it on the record that he hurt their kids, and they want to make it.

[Host 1]

They want a law to make it so that this can't happen again. But guess what? That law is already there.

[Host 2]

Right.

[Host 1]

You know what I mean?

[Host 2]

Right. And so, like, also, you think this guy has $600,000 to pay these people like that?

[Host 1]

And it's like listening to these families. Like Leslie's mom said she eventually had to start doing her crying in the shower because her crying was bumming people out. Britney's dad says, and this broke my heart. He's the one that had to get up and walk out of the room. Yeah, you just don't have fun anymore. I probably didn't laugh for three years. Britney's mom says if you lose a.

[Host 2]

Husband, you're divorced or you're widowed. If you lose a parent, you're orphaned. But there isn't a word to lose your child. I are, is sad and there's, there's nothing that can take away the pain because you lose the best part of.

[Host 1]

Yourself because that's what your children are. If you lose your kid. There's no word for that.

[Host 2]

I know.

[Host 1]

I could sob. I know. And she says you lose the best part of yourself.

[Host 2]

Like what's the point?

[Host 1]

And she's saying her whole point is, she said, I have a pool in my backyard. She says, as a matter of factly, I have tried to kill myself in that pool about 10 times. I go down, I take in water, I try to bind my feet. So I. But the instinct that I have no control. I pull myself up every single time. How is it that my daughter didn't have that survival instinct? There has to be a reason.

[Host 2]

And there's also, it's just so clear, you know. Cause we get a lot of like students and friends who are also suffering. Like they're sad or they're guilty or they're like quitting their activities and their interests, they're acting out, they're getting suspended. But other people have like no understanding of suicide and they're saying really shitty things about their friends.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yes.

[Host 2]

And I just think it's.

[Host 1]

And it's also like the kids who didn't die, they all have survivor's guilt and they're talking about it now in a way they didn't know how to then. And it's like this like fucking touchy feely principal guy. Can you bring in some counselors I know? Can you bring in somebody to talk to these kids who don't know how to get through the day? Ashley Wesley's girlfriend is like, it ruined high school for me.

[Host 2]

Of course it did. It's all tainted. It's all wrapped up in that Ariana.

[Host 1]

Couldn'T get out of that town fast enough. And now when she comes back for the holidays, she, she like, she's so sad to be there.

[Host 2]

Yeah. And this principal is making it about himself. Cuz he wears his school ring everybody, every single day still.

[Guest or Interviewee 1]

And he goes, I had a 29 year career that was almost picture perfect. I love the kids, I love the school. But then I had the worst disastrous year that you can possibly imagine.

[Host 2]

29 year career that was almost picture perfect. But he knows he's got the sweetest deal ever. He loves his life now. He has this old car that he works on. He hikes to the mountains again. A gorgeous lake house. He has a stained glass gallery.

[Host 1]

And he can't.

[Host 2]

He enjoys beekeeping.

[Host 1]

Oh, my God.

[Host 2]

Leave the bees out of it.

[Host 1]

Leave the bees out of this.

[Host 2]

You need the bees.

[Host 1]

He can't say one thing about having any remorse or sadness for the family.

[Host 2]

0.

[Host 1]

All he can do is talk about how it was not his fault. And he can't understand the witch hunt. And he doesn't know why people were being so mean to him. It is absolutely insane.

[Host 2]

And so now he's like, I really, really, really want to visit the school. He thinks about that school every day. So the first filmmaker tells everyone in the dock, like, hey, Dr. Kenny, you know, this Kenny guy wants to visit the school. Here are the reactions. One of the former students is like, I'm not trying to be rude, but, like, why?

[Host 1]

Why?

[Host 2]

His own lawyer goes, what do you mean?

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Host 2]

Like. Like, look at it from afar.

[Host 1]

Because.

[Host 2]

Or does he actually want to go inside the school itself? Because he would need explicit permission, and I really don't think he's going to get that.

[Host 1]

No.

[Host 2]

Idiot Janice keeps defending him. He has every right to be at that school. His blood, sweat and tears built it. And I'm like, really? Because first of all, everyone said it was a shithole number. He fucking resigned in disgrace and now is living the life in North Carolina doing anything and everything he wants. He's fine.

[Host 1]

Your Janice is great. I love your Janice. Like, he has every right.

[Host 2]

No, he doesn't.

[Host 1]

No, he doesn't. But guess what? There he fucking is. So it took my breath away.

[Host 2]

And he. This. But wait, this. I've never. This is all crazy.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

So he's like, you know, at first, I didn't want to do this documentary. I'm like, yes, you did.

[Guest or Interviewee 1]

And he goes, this documentary was going to happen with or without me. I didn't want to be a victim again of this story. So I've decided to cooperate and tell this story in the most honest, objective, factual way that I could.

[Host 2]

What did you just say? I know you don't want to be the. What? I know you don't want to be the what. You got your full fucking pension and a year of community service, which will do you good. Fucking prick. So what are you. You live in a lake house. You have a stained glass business. You're friends with the bees.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Yeah. Don't know any better. I hope they all sting you.

[Host 1]

No. Then they die.

[Host 2]

No, no, no. But, like, I, I, I don't understand what victim you got off. You're fine.

[Host 1]

I know.

[Host 2]

Fine. You got your full pension and you live in a gorgeous lake house and you got everything you wanted.

[Host 1]

I will say that the filmmakers do finally start doing him dirty in this section.

[Host 2]

Eventually. But. Wait, but, so this guy is like in the school. He's such a creep.

[Host 1]

I was shocked when we saw him on the grounds of the school.

[Host 2]

I g. Now he's talking to a lot of the students who like, think he's a hero.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yes.

[Host 2]

He walks right up to them on the bleachers. They are all hysterical. And he just will not stop touching them.

[Host 1]

I know.

[Host 2]

He will not stop touching them. And it's just, it's like another physical manifestation of this forced familiarity with these kids. Stop touching them and rubbing their necks.

[Host 1]

I know.

[Host 2]

As they're crying.

[Host 1]

I know.

[Host 2]

So now they, this is where I'm like, oh, we've never seen anything like this.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

And I hope everyone does. I hope everyone takes a lesson from this and does people as dirty.

[Host 1]

It's really good.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Which is it dirty if it's the fucking truth? You know what I mean? Is it really being done dirty if you're just showing us exactly who you are?

[Host 1]

And it definitely like, like the documentarians are not on his side.

[Host 2]

No. So he's at the memorial for Marcus. And remember this asshole was the guy who only wanted Marcus to have a memorial plate and not Wesley or Britney because he, quote, doesn't want to support suicide or whatever. Some bullshit shitty take.

[Host 1]

He reiter that here.

[Host 2]

So he's there at the memorial for Marcus and he's crying or forcing out tears.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yes.

[Host 2]

And then it cuts to multiple interviews of this guy in this documentary.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yes.

[Host 2]

And back in 2000, whatever, when this.

[Host 1]

Happened the days after Marcus died.

[Host 2]

And also in this very documentary.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yes.

[Guest or Interviewee 1]

Played football. Basketball. Basketball. He ran track. He was in the rotc. Marcus was just a great kid. He was just a real great kid. Marcus was the all American kid.

[Host 2]

It is the exact same speech. He is pausing for effect in the same places.

[Host 1]

It's unbelievable to watch.

[Host 2]

He says the same speech more than once in this documentary?

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yes.

[Host 2]

He says it at the memorial plaque and then he says it at the lake house in the done.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yes.

[Host 2]

It's the same.

[Host 1]

Calling Marcus the all American kid. Like the words from today and, and 20 years ago are exactly the same.

[Host 2]

And today twice.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yes. Yes.

[Host 2]

I could not believe what I was seeing. Even the cadence, the stopping, the rhythm, the pausing, searching for the right word in the exact same Place in the exact same way. Yes, it is crazy.

[Host 1]

And what is amazing, too, is that, like, at the end of that part, I loved this. He goes, I feel like I spent my whole career trying to be fair to people, and I was treated completely unfair in this situation. Then he looks into the camera and says, and that's why I feel good about this documentary. I can just let people watch it and make any decision they want.

[Host 2]

Sure can.

[Host 1]

And I was like, beautiful.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Brilliant.

[Host 2]

Yeah. Because he said this all before. But what really sticks out to me here is that he says, like, all this press about his hypnosis was taking the attention away from the fact that so many students were dying by suicide.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

And we should focus on that. And I'm like, but the suicide stopped when you did.

[Host 1]

So that's my other big thing here was like, he has such little self awareness that he. He doesn't understand, like, in his brain. They stopped talking about the suicide and started talking about the hypnosis, when in reality, what happened was they started connecting the hypnosis to the suicide.

[Host 2]

Right.

[Host 1]

And he doesn't see that.

[Host 2]

Right. And I'm not making a general statement on suicide. I'm talking about his words related to what we were just discussing for the last 10 hours.

[Host 1]

Because he can only see it as a witch hunt. Oh, my God. They stopped talking about these poor kids who died, and they started talking about me doing this thing that they were calling me and crazy and. No, no, no, no, no, no, sir. What they were doing was realizing there was a reason for the suicide, and you were it.

[Host 2]

Right? Right.

[Host 1]

Oh, my God, I'm shaking.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Get me to Disney World. Get me to Disney world.

[Host 2]

And now, 11 years later, Steven, with all the nicknames is now doing another session with this creep. Because Steven was really struggling. And then he. He found help or solace or whatever in this guy. So, weirdly enough, Steven's head isn't fully in his lap this time.

[Host 1]

Oh, my God. But once again, he hasn't done a session with Stephen in 20 years or whatever. It takes him five seconds. Seconds. I have this guy completely bended in.

[Host 2]

Half, and I'm like, I'm not. But like, Stephen, do you have another test to take? Like, what are we doing this for?

[Host 1]

I know, I know. And I. And I did wonder about the head not being fully in his crotch if, like, they. Everybody was on their best behaviors for the film cameras.

[Host 2]

I'm positive.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yes.

[Host 2]

Like, and so the doc ends with.

[Guest or Interviewee 1]

He just wanted to help people. But why this? And why without a license if you're that good at it, then go get certified, give up teaching altogether and be a hypnotherapist counselor. Not a big deal. But you didn't do that.

[Host 1]

Go get licensed. And there's part of me that's like, he wants access to the kids.

[Host 2]

Well, it's power, it's control. He wanted the kids to think he was super powerful. And he also thinks he's above it all.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yes.

[Host 2]

His, this new thing he's going to do or whatever. Like his research, his data, his whatever. Like he thinks he's above it.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yes, yes.

[Host 2]

He's some fucking delicate genius. And he's not. He's an asshole. He's smug. And now coach Marcus, remember from the beginning. Yes.

[Host 1]

I love what he said.

[Host 2]

He said, he goes, those kids don't need fucking hypnosis. They needed mentorship.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yes.

[Host 2]

They were asking for help.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yes.

[Host 2]

And you didn't help them. You directed them away from the help.

[Host 1]

And you used them and you used them.

[Host 2]

And just when it can't get any worse, there are more balloons up into the sky. And like, I don't think. Just like my final thoughts are, I don't think you can be hypnotized to do something you don't want to do. I don't think you can like be hypnotized to rob a bank or whatever. I just can't get over.

[Host 1]

You can be brainwashed though. That's a different thing.

[Host 2]

Yeah. I can't get over the position that the, the, that Wesley and Britney were in.

[Host 1]

Right.

[Host 2]

That is really unsettling to me.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

Yes.

[Host 2]

I still think everything this guy did was inappropriate.

[Host 1]

Yes.

[Host 2]

And I think they needed real help and he's not qualified to do any of it. It starts at being unlicensed, like period, end of sentence.

[Guest or Interviewee 2]

That's the end.

[Host 2]

That's it. Right. And he's a proven liar and a grifter.

[Host 1]

Right.

[Host 2]

He's lying in his deposition. He's or he's admitting that he lied. Like he's a self centered creep and none of this should have been happening with minors on school property. No.

[Host 1]

And I hope that like anybody who like lives near him in North Carolina.

[Host 2]

Like beware, frowns at him or just be careful because he might be saying, you have a bad day today. I can help. Like I don't know what he's thing.

[Host 1]

Like, I bet he's still out there doing the hypnotherapy. I bet he is.

[Host 2]

I'm sure of it. I'm sure of it.

[Host 1]

Oh, girl, we did look into my eyes.

[Host 2]

Yep. All 10,000 episodes.

[Host 1]

I know. This was a wild one.

[Host 2]

Crazy, crazy fam.

[Host 1]

Join the Facebook group. Get in the disy. Come check us out on Patreon. But only if you like drag bingo and ad free bonus episodes. Yes, only, only, only, only if you like those things.

[Host 2]

Yes.

[Host 1]

What are we doing next, girl?

[Host 2]

We are doing manhunt. The murder of Emily Longley. This is about a 17 year old girl in New Zealand. It's a crazy story, but her family is here to tell us about it and her family's awesome.

[Host 1]

Oh, amazing.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

All right, well stay tuned for the trailer for that family. Love you. Don't do this.

[Host 2]

Don't do this. And that's on Amazon prime, by the way. I people ask to please remember to tell them where they can find it. Yeah, yeah. Don't be a dick. No, but I feel like we ask it every week. And don't put balloons in the sky.

[Host 1]

And someday let's go get drunk and go see an X rated hypnotist. I would do that.

[Host 2]

X rated. I can't get past. I will, I will, I will, I will.

[Host 1]

Bye.

[Guest or Interviewee 1]

Very early on, we started to get a picture. This is quite a volatile relationship.

[Host 1]

It's just not on.

[Guest or Interviewee 1]

It's just like, oh, yeah, do you love me?

[Host 2]

We'll just show it.

[Guest or Interviewee 1]

He wanted to know where she was all the time, what she wore, who she was going out with and where she was going to be.

[Host 2]

He just wanted to control her.

[Host 1]

Do you have anything at all to say? Mom and dad were going to do everything they could to support their son.

[Guest or Interviewee 1]

I started to appreciate that Mrs. Turner was not being truthful.

[Host 2]

We had no information. There were no obvious internal or external injuries to Emily Longley.

[Guest or Interviewee 1]

There didn't seem to be an obvious reason why she died. What we needed was a cause of death. We had to prove or disprove my theory that Emily had died at the hands of her boyfriend.