453: New York Homicide: Broken Pride (S1E5)

Summary

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True Crime Obsessed: "New York Homicide: Broken Pride" (S1E5)

Episode 453 | September 11, 2025
Hosts: Jillian Benavalli & Patrick Hines

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Episode Overview

In this engaging and thought-provoking episode, True Crime Obsessed recaps the "New York Homicide" episode titled "Broken Pride" (Season 1, Episode 5). Jillian and Patrick dive into the 1995 murder of Sylvia Lugo and the traumatic attack on her girlfriend, Amanda Leach, in Park Slope, Brooklyn—a crime that profoundly impacted New York’s lesbian community. Vividly critical of law enforcement's handling of the case, the hosts highlight systemic failures, community resilience, and the real-life consequences of both crime and suspicion, all while maintaining their trademark humor, warmth, and advocacy for LGBTQ stories in true crime.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Importance of Telling LGBTQ Stories

• The hosts express ongoing gratitude for the opportunity to discuss cases involving queer women, noting such true crime stories are "so few and far between" (Jillian, 01:39).
• They point out the rarity of lesbian visibility—even in crime media—and praise the community's activism and cohesion.
• Memorable banter about the influence of lesbians and "Lilith Fair" in the 90s sets the tone (00:16).

The Crime: July 5, 1995

• Sylvia Lugo and Amanda Leach, a couple living in Park Slope, Brooklyn, return from a holiday and are brutally attacked in their apartment.
• Jillian and Patrick stress that early police responses were marked by chaos, and even an EMT on the scene personally knew the victims, ramping up emotional stakes (04:03).

Amanda’s Survival and Initial Police Narrative

• Amanda, despite being shot in the leg, drags herself to unlock the door for police, an act that raises questions about the sequence of events (05:02).
• The apartment shows no forced entry, the weapon is missing, and Amanda is severely injured—meanwhile, Sylvia is shot twice in the head and is on life support (05:12).
• Sylvia passes away, devastating her large and close-knit family, who had only recently lost their father in a robbery (12:02, 12:20).

Amanda’s Story and Police Skepticism

• Amanda recounts that a man forced them inside, made her tie Sylvia up, raped her, then shot Sylvia after Sylvia intervened (12:54).
  • Notable quote: “Amanda... ties Sylvia up super loosely so she'd be able to break free.” (Jillian, 12:55)
• Police doubt Amanda's account due to inconsistencies with the medical evidence (e.g., whether Sylvia could have gotten up after being shot in the head) and the trajectory of Amanda’s leg wound (15:01, 15:21).
• Hosts question whether Amanda’s trauma and the context of being a lesbian woman contributed to her not being believed (13:43).

Community and Family Reactions

• Sylvia’s family is first shocked, then, as police cast suspicion on Amanda, begin to doubt her innocence, showing how law enforcement shapes the perceptions of families (17:31).
• Amanda is subjected to deep suspicion within both the broader community and Sylvia's family, suffering isolation while still recovering from her physical and psychological wounds.

The Lesbians of Park Slope: Community, Softball, and Activism

• The tight-knit nature of the lesbian community in Park Slope receives both affectionate ribbing and real respect:
  • “She played softball with everyone. And she's Sylvia and Amanda's friend. And she's horrified.” (Patrick, 21:15)
  • The hosts joke about the ubiquity of lesbians and softball teams in Park Slope, but underscore their community bonds and resilience (10:38).
• The LGBTQ community rallies to support Amanda, organizing protests and marches in response to her treatment by police (33:57, 34:12).
  • Notable quote: “We protested, we marched. It really did feel like, because we were women, because we were lesbians... let's wrap this up right away.” (Kimberly, 33:57)

Law Enforcement Critique: Biases and Copaganda

• Jillian and Patrick are critical of the NYPD’s “self-congratulatory” tone in the documentary and take issue with the department’s assertion that it “improved” relations with the LGBTQ community (34:58, 35:10).
  • “You want to—can we just go down a list of reasons why the gays don't trust the cops?” (Jillian, 34:28)
• The so-called “LGBTQ Bureau” within the NYPD comes under scrutiny, with Jillian revealing it consists of only a handful of people—a token gesture rather than substantive change (35:10, 35:27).

The Real Attacker: Serial Crime and Arrest

• Despite Amanda’s ordeal and the community’s outcry, detectives focus on her and her ex, Trelane, while a serial rapist (the Park Slope Rapist) is still at large.
• Eventually, another woman, Gabrielle Kearns, is attacked eight months later; the assailant, Alex Villanueva (19), is apprehended (40:11).
  • Villanueva closely matches Amanda’s initial description from the composite sketch—validating her memory under trauma (44:44).
  • He confesses not only to the attacks on Amanda and Sylvia but also to other violent crimes, demonstrating the indiscriminate violence at play (41:55, 42:01).

Aftermath: Consequences and Accountability

• Amanda is vindicated, but not before enduring a year of suspicion, community alienation, and being a “pariah," as Patrick describes (47:44).
• Both Amanda and Trelane, her ex, suffer lasting trauma and reputational damage—Trelane even loses her job and is ostracized (48:40).
• The killer, Villanueva, is sentenced to 50 years to life for multiple crimes (50:45).
• The hosts note Amanda's complete absence from the documentary, reading this as a refusal to be re-exploited by the system and the true crime genre (50:49, 51:02).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Jillian (01:39): "I love that they are telling a lesbian story. I feel like the LGBTQ stories are so few and far between in true crime."
• Patrick (33:57), quoting Kimberly: "We protested, we marched. It really did feel like, because we were women, because we were lesbians... let's wrap this up right away."
• Jillian (34:28): "You want to—can we just go down a list of reasons why the gays don't trust the cops? The years of raiding our bars, beating up our people... now all of a sudden, they're totally trying to rewrite that history."
• Patrick (34:16): "The LGBTQ community and the police department had a fractured relationship."
• Jillian (47:34): "...now she [Amanda]'s a survivor of this. Like, in addition to what this piece of shit did her, now she survived being accused of her girlfriend's murder for a year."
• Patrick (49:03): "[The police say] honestly, like, there's really nothing you can do about it. And I'm like, there are about a million things you could have done."
• Jillian (51:02): "I told my story and they didn't want to hear it. I'm not telling it again... I'm not telling this a third time. Absolutely not."

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Timeline & Timestamps of Major Segments

• [00:00–01:19] — Lighthearted intro, context-setting, focus on importance of lesbian stories
• [02:00–05:32] — The crime: police response, Amanda and Sylvia discovered, initial confusion
• [06:02–11:52] — Family backgrounds, Sylvia’s life, strengths of the Park Slope lesbian community
• [12:34–16:34] — Amanda’s account; disbelief from police, questions about the evidence
• [17:31–19:23] — Family reactions, Amanda becomes the prime suspect
• [22:18–23:46] — Lesbian community rallies around Amanda, noting intersectionality and biases (race, sexuality)
• [25:36–27:19] — Introduction of Trelane, ex-girlfriend, and the so-called ‘love triangle’ suspicions
• [29:44–31:05] — Further evidence review, no conclusive DNA or forced entry, flaws in investigations
• [33:57–35:32] — Community protests, critiques of the NYPD’s historic and current failings
• [37:29–38:56] — Arrest of the Park Slope Rapist; turns out to be unrelated to Sylvia/Amanda’s attack
• [40:00–43:13] — Arrest of Alex Villanueva; confession and evidence matching Amanda's story
• [46:59–47:44] — Amanda is formally vindicated, but not before enduring extensive trauma
• [48:40–50:45] — Aftermath for Amanda and Trelane, Villanueva’s conviction, final reflections

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Tone & Style

• The hosts blend humor, pop culture references (Mad Men, League of Their Own), and earnest advocacy for LGBTQ people.
• They are openly skeptical of both police and true crime narratives that self-congratulate without accountability.
• Throughout, they maintain empathy for victims and survivors, alongside sharp-edged commentary on institutional failures.

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Summary Takeaway

“Broken Pride” serves as a powerful case study of a crime that devastated a queer community and exposed persistent flaws and biases in police investigations. The True Crime Obsessed hosts, Jillian and Patrick, excel at balancing irreverent banter and pop culture allusions with deep sensitivity and incisive critique—amplifying both the humanity of the victims and the necessity of truth and justice for marginalized communities. This episode stands out for its heart, advocacy, and insistence on accountability, both within and beyond the true crime genre.

Transcript

[Jillian Benavalli]

I feel like we've been so lucky lately, beginning to talk about lesbians as much as we have been.

[Patrick Hines]

And this one we're also recording. Amy Bradley, three.

[Jillian Benavalli]

So, like, so many lesbians, I need them because otherwise I'm not getting through this.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, they kind of got a lot of shit done. Not like I'm saying, like, it's surprising, but like, wow, they're really burying the.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Lead, this and Lilith Fair. Good job, lesbians.

[Patrick Hines]

Hell yeah.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Hi. Jillian Benavalli.

[Patrick Hines]

Hi. Patrick Hines. Girl.

[Jillian Benavalli]

My notes begin with, I've got three words for you. Lesbian.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Lesbian.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly. So this is our 12th bonus episode. It's an episode of that show New York Homicide, Season 1, Episode 5. This episode is called Broken Pride.

[Narrator/Investigator]

These two women had just come back from the Fourth of July holiday weekend, and they were viciously attacked in their Brooklyn grounds.

[Interviewee (e.g., Amanda or Trelane or Kimberly)]

I got a phone call. Amanda had been shot. Sylvia had been shot and killed. And I almost dropped the phone.

[Jillian Benavalli]

The community was very, very afraid, and they wanted.

[Interviewee (e.g., Amanda or Trelane or Kimberly)]

There was a fellow known as the Park Slope Rapist, and he had not been apprehended yet.

[Narrator/Investigator]

But our main suspect was someone closer to home. The only known witness to the police.

[Interviewee (e.g., Amanda or Trelane or Kimberly)]

None of her story is making sense.

[Jillian Benavalli]

You see someone shot, you have to make a determination. Was the person shot or could it be self inflicted?

[Interviewee (e.g., Amanda or Trelane or Kimberly)]

We were outraged, telling them, no, no, no, no, no. You're barking up the wrong tree. Go find the guy who did this. Just the facts of the case makes you kind your head and say, I didn't see that coming.

[Jillian Benavalli]

I love that they are telling a lesbian story. I feel like the LGBTQ stories are so few and far between in true crime.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, they try to cover up their mess a little bit, but we clock them, as did the lesbians.

[Jillian Benavalli]

We were just talking about this off mic at one point. They're like, we were. So this. This takes place in 1995. They're like, we were so good at dealing with the gay community. I'm like, not really. And. And by the way, there's a reason we don't trust you. And we'll get there.

[Patrick Hines]

We will get there. So it's July 5, 1995. Our host is, like, every year, like clockwork, noise complaints flood our precincts on the fourth.

[Jillian Benavalli]

I got to tell you, though, people are out of control in New York.

[Patrick Hines]

Sucks. I hate the 4th.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Really sucks.

[Patrick Hines]

But also just like, for many reasons.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Fireworks of it all. What's the deal?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, because they're getting the complaints for.

[Narrator/Investigator]

Like, the noise, including reports of gunshots that turned out to Be illegal fireworks. But on this one Fourth of July in 1995 at 1am Called to Brooklyn's 84th, turned out to be the real deal.

[Jillian Benavalli]

It was actually gunshots.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. So senior ADA Haida Mason is here, and she's telling us a lot of the story.

[Jillian Benavalli]

She says, I love her, but she's like, one of the chief apologist for, like, how great they all were with the gays.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, Heidi. Yeah. She says one of the most disturbing 911 calls she has ever heard.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Yeah, I mean, she's describing. We don't have this 911 call, but there's a woman who she says is completely hysterical. A man has forced his way into their apartment. This woman has been shot, and she's been raped.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And our host is like, you go the Hell's Bells, and you get there as fast as you can. It's like, uhhuh. That's your job.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Hell's Bell.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes. Yeah. You hear. You get an emergency phone call. You act like it's an emergency.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Excellent. I've ever heard the expression hell's Bell bells before.

[Patrick Hines]

I've only heard it in Mad Men. Hell's Bells, Trudy.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Really?

[Patrick Hines]

He says it. It's like. I guess it's like a very rich Upper east side curse at the time.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Oh, really?

[Patrick Hines]

Is it like. He says it when he's angry. Hell's bells, Trudy.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Don't you yell at Trudy, please, Trudy, I love her. That's what the money's for.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, she wasn't even there, but she'd be like, don, I know.

[Jillian Benavalli]

100%. So the cops get there, they really don't know what they're walking into. Like, they say the shooter could still be there. They don't really know what's going on. But I was like, it is literal chaos down here, Tom.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, y. So the detective, Derek Parker, is like.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Don'T like this guy.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. No. Was it a jealous ex? Was it a robbery? Because, like, the cops get there and they hear screaming on the other side of the door, and they're like, is he still here? Like, what is going on?

[Jillian Benavalli]

And then also, And I don't think we've ever seen this before, the first EMT to arrive recognizes the apartment as belonging to their friends Amanda and Sylvia.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benavalli]

What do you do? Like, I mean, I don't know. Like, are you supposed to recuse yourself in that moment? Because I feel like I'd go banana.

[Patrick Hines]

I don't know. I mean, that's a good question. I'm not sure I don't know your.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Street address, but if I was an EMT and I showed up to your building and I was like, what apartment did you say?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what to do. I mean, I think you. You can't just, like, fudgeing, fall apart. You still have to do your job and help save people.

[Jillian Benavalli]

This is why I'm not an emt.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. This is probably why you can't stop everything, but.

[Jillian Benavalli]

So this is for the YouTube fam only. But the. Look at my disappointment when you said, you can't just fall apart. I'm like, but wait, that's what I'm the best at.

[Patrick Hines]

You got to get your shit together.

[Jillian Benavalli]

I don't know, girl. I don't know.

[Patrick Hines]

So the apartment is the apartment of Amanda Leach and Sylvia Lugo. They are girlfriends.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Amanda is there screaming.

[Interviewee (e.g., Amanda or Trelane or Kimberly)]

Amanda is screaming in, come in.

[Patrick Hines]

Help me.

[Interviewee (e.g., Amanda or Trelane or Kimberly)]

Help me. She has to drag herself through the apartment to the door because she's too badly injured to get up and walk and kind of climbs up her own door, unlocks the door so they're able to come in.

[Patrick Hines]

She's the one that unlocks the door from the inside and lets them in. And I'm like, whoa, she unlocked the door.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, how did this person get in?

[Jillian Benavalli]

Yeah. And then locked the door behind him.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Benavalli]

So the cops finally get in. They say there's blood everywhere. Amanda has been shot once in the leg. She's the one that was up and answered the door. Sylvia, her girlfriend, has been shot twice in the head. Sylvia is unconscious but breathing. She's still alive.

[Patrick Hines]

And there are three gunshots, but the gun is missing. So we're like, okay, there's no gun. There's also no forced entry.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Yeah. And there's, like, so many questions because it's like, did they shoot each other? What is happening?

[Patrick Hines]

What's going on? So Amanda and Sylvia are rushed to the hospital. Their families are notified, and Sylvia is on life support. And now we meet so many members of Sylvia's family.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Well, right. So the first two that we meet are Mark and Martin. They're Sylvia's brothers, and they are devastated, and they can't even process the idea that Sylvia might not make it. Sylvia's been shot in the head twice?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. They're absolutely terrified. Like, they're trying to stay positive. It is unfortunately not looking good, but they're just, you know, they're doing their best.

[Jillian Benavalli]

And so then we meet Sandra and Teresa, Sylvia's sisters, and they're sort of Giving us a Sylvia backstory. They describe growing up in Park Slope. There were eight kids. Sylvia was the third of eight children.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And they talk about. Sandra tells us about, like, this perfect home they had. They were in Park Slope. It was three floors of big backyard. They went to great schools.

[Jillian Benavalli]

It takes too long for them to get there. But, like, lucky for Sylvia, because Park Club is where all the lesbians live.

[Patrick Hines]

Great.

[Jillian Benavalli]

You literally have to be a lesbian now to live there.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Which we will legally evict you if you're not. I don't know if you know this or not.

[Patrick Hines]

I do. It's on the box.

[Jillian Benavalli]

But I don't know when it became that way. Like, I don't know if it was like that when Sylvia was growing up, but they grew up in Parksville. Parks is a very, very fancy neighborhood in New York now.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. I mean, they had a lot of kids, so they had to have. I mean, you don't have to have a big house, but when they're like, oh, three floors. I'm like, oh, wow. These kids, like, with a big outdoor space, like, these kids really had it made.

[Jillian Benavalli]

It sounds very expensive. We don't learn anything about, like, Sylvia's parents or what they did, but they had eight kids in a big house with a backyard and Park Slope, like, God damn it.

[Patrick Hines]

Good for them.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Travel down the road.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Back again, girl. Cornbread CBD gummies are back. I got to tell you, I love them so much. Ever since I sort of kicked the alcohol. This is my go to thing now.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Look, we all got a lot going on. I know we all need to unwind. And what's helping me unwind these days is cornbread hemp CBD gummies. I love them. They have all different flavors. They have watermelon, berry, and peach. I'm a watermelon girly.

[Jillian Benavalli]

And look, Cornbread hemp CBD gummies are made to help you feel better, whether it's stress, discomfort, or just needing a little relaxation. That's what I do. I go home after a recording, I pop a couple of those.

[Patrick Hines]

You know, people always ask, like, what do you do after talking about really tense, stressful things for four hours.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Yeah, we get this. The Cornbread Hemp cbd. Yummy.

[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian Benavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. We love it.

[Jillian Benavalli]

We do. So fam right now. TCO listeners can save 30% on their first order.

[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian Benavalli]

That's kornbreadhem.com tco and use code tco@checkout.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, just like, relax a little bit.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Just take the hr.

[Patrick Hines]

You know, we all need to calm down a little bit, I think. So Sylvia was the third born. She was kind.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Sylvia was kind. Loved animals. Anyone who would ever meet her would not have a problem with her. She would give you the shirt off her back.

[Patrick Hines]

Sweet, caring, wonderful.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Like, who doesn't love animals? I was thinking that when I took that. But you literally have to be a bad people. A bad people. A bad people if you don't like animals.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, really.

[Jillian Benavalli]

I have a dog that drives me crazy, but I like him. You know what I mean? I mean. I mean, I love him.

[Patrick Hines]

You love him?

[Jillian Benavalli]

I mean, I mean, I love him. I mean, I've got a kid that drives me crazy too. I also love her.

[Patrick Hines]

You gave birth to that.

[Jillian Benavalli]

I gave. I did birth. That I did get pregnant with and then birth a dog.

[Patrick Hines]

Right?

[Jillian Benavalli]

I did. Have.

[Patrick Hines]

Have you seen that TikTok trend where it's like, babies and dogs aren't the same thing? And then it's like, really Explain this. And then it's like a very crudely photoshopped dog. Like, it on a sonogram.

[Jillian Benavalli]

I said this to you. I've looked you right in your goddamn eye and told you a thousand times, I've had animals and I've had children, and I think the love feels the same.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, it's still like a creature you're raising. It's still like something you're. That is completely dependent on you, you know, like.

[Jillian Benavalli]

But can you imagine going to a zoo and seeing a panda and not being, like, annoyed? Who doesn't like animals?

[Patrick Hines]

No. I don't know. Bad people.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Bad people.

[Patrick Hines]

Telling you. Okay, it's like a very simple answer.

[Jillian Benavalli]

I know, like, but it really does tell you something. If you're like, you know, it's like people who don't like ice cream. You're like, what's what?

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, get ready for those DMS girls. They are gonna be coming and coming hard.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Are there people who don't like ice cream?

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, and animals and ice cream. Well, it's gonna be like, you know, it's gonna be bean souping. Like, I taught you about last week, where it's gonna be like, well, I'm allergic. Okay, then. Then don't go. Don't eat the ice cream.

[Jillian Benavalli]

We're just saying, like, Sylvia likes animals so much, we see a picture of her petting a snake.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benavalli]

I was like, sylvia, there's a. You can go too far.

[Patrick Hines]

No.

[Jillian Benavalli]

You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

So cool, man.

[Jillian Benavalli]

But, like, behind glass, sometimes not.

[Patrick Hines]

This is what I mean. This is why you're gonna get the DMs.

[Jillian Benavalli]

All right. God.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh. Let's get back to the lesbians, because.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Amanda and Sylvia met playing softball. Yeah. I remember when Sylvia introduced Amanda to us. And my initial impression was, she's a very nice woman. And when I found out that she was a social worker and worked with kids, I'm like, you know, that for me, is making a contribution in the world. Someone who's trying to do good. And I liked her. They met on the local Park Slope softball team, which I would imagine at this point is a fucking league. You know what I mean? The number of lesbians playing softball in Park Slope. I want to go there on any Sunday and just watch a game. They love it.

[Patrick Hines]

Are you surprised that I really loved playing softball?

[Jillian Benavalli]

No, because you're kind of a lesbian.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, I pitched.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And then I guess you're doing that, like, underhand swing. I only did it once. I only did one. No, no, no. I wasn't like one of those. I pitched for a little bit for, like, one. It wasn't, like, a huge thing. Will you give us a. I just did one, like. Like a bowling. But I went around once. I was not one of those swing, bada baa, battle, like, League of Their Own, badass, Like, triple windmill kind of thing. So that's what it's called. I don't know. I just made that up. Is that what it's called? I hope so.

[Jillian Benavalli]

That sounds like a drag move if ever I've heard. Oh, did you see.

[Patrick Hines]

Did you see the trip?

[Jillian Benavalli]

She did a triple windmill.

[Patrick Hines]

Triple windmill. Like Katya.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Katya did a triple windmill death trap.

[Patrick Hines]

Sylvia's family says that they met Amanda and they really liked her. They were like, she's really nice. She's a social worker. And Mark, the brother, is like. Well, if you're like. To him, he's like, that means you're trying to do good in this world. So I like you for that alone.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Yeah. And, like, having, you know, been in the foster care system, I can tell you I know how hard those people were.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Benavalli]

The number of cases, like, social workers are. My mom was a social worker. They are the best. But I do. It does seem like there was no issue that Sylvia was Gay at all. Who knows? We don't ever meet the parents or learn much more about them. But, like, at least with the siblings who are here, everybody loves and accepts Sylvia. And this is the 90s. That was a different time.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Because we learned a little bit earlier that Sylvia came out, like, 18 or 19, and her family saying she was totally comfortable with who she was. She came out to everyone. Like, she was just like Sylvia was Sylvia.

[Jillian Benavalli]

I love her. So this is really fudgeing sad. But Sylvia doesn't make it. I mean, it's so awful. Her family is devastated. And we learned that they had just lost their dad a few years ago in a robbery. Like, the dad was in a robbery and was killed. Like, this family has really experienced the worst of, like, New York City.

[Patrick Hines]

It's really, really horrifying.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So her family obviously is devastated because they're barely getting over their father being murdered, and now this horror, truly horrifying thing happens to their sister. It's just totally fudgeing. Unfair. The world is so unfair.

[Jillian Benavalli]

And then Amanda, the girlfriend who let the cops in, still recovering at the hospital, she tells the investigators what happened. And she said they were unloading their rental car, bringing things into the apartment, when they were quoting, quote, set upon by an unknown male who forced them at gunpoint into the apartment, forced Amanda to tie Sylvia up. Now, Amanda, because she's smart and amazing.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, she pulls a fast one.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Oh, my God. She, like, ties Sylvia up super loosely so she'd be able to break free. The man then takes Amanda into the bedroom where he rapes her. Sylvia broke in while the rape was occurring.

[Narrator/Investigator]

After Sylvia burst into the room to save Amanda, the assailant shoots her in the head.

[Patrick Hines]

Head.

[Narrator/Investigator]

Amanda says Sylvia fell to the floor and then stood up, only to get shot a second time. In the head.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Got shot in the head a second time.

[Patrick Hines]

And then there's a struggle. And that's like, how. And when Amanda gets shot in the leg. And then this guy tried to shoot Amanda again with the gun jam, and he couldn't. And then the guy just leaves. Like, he grabs the keys to this rental car and steals some jewelry and just leaves. And the cops are like. Like, huh? A lot went on. Like, this story seems unbelievable, which is.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Like, kind of crazy. And I wonder, like, if they weren't lesbians, if they would think the story was more believable.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Like, why does it seem unbelievable to them?

[Patrick Hines]

Because I think, why the way they're telling it to us, like, you know.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Very protective of the lesbians of Course.

[Patrick Hines]

But like Sylvia is shot in the head and then falls to the floor and then gets up again. And then the whole thing about the gun jamming, it's just like, it's a crazy story. Like just, just because the story's crazy doesn't mean it didn't happen.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Truly. And we're gonna learn some more crazy things, some of which I don't believe, but we' get to it in a minute. Amanda describes the assailant as a latino man, about five 5, 150 pounds, wearing a baseball cap with a pencil thin mustache. He was a little son of a bitch.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, like he was an asshole.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Yeah. Amanda gives a description and they put together a composite sketch which is now then released to the public.

[Patrick Hines]

And the cops are on a bolo. They'll be on the lookout for the, for the rental car, which is very important. So July 10, 1995, five days after the murder. We get Sylvia's autopsy back and the results are shocking. And we're told that this like, completely turns the. Because the results don't match Amanda's story. They say.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Now I'm like, why is anybody surprised that this woman who, I'm sorry, I am not saying this cavalierly at all, this woman who was raped and shot in the leg doesn't have a perfect memory or her story doesn't exactly make sense.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Benavalli]

You know what I mean? Like, I was like, wait a second. But they're suddenly questioning Amanda's story because the medical examiner is saying that with Sylvia's gunshot wounds, there was two of them. Either one of them would have completely incapacitated. She would not have been able to stand up. And the way that Amanda said she did, which Amanda says is when she was then shot in the head the second time.

[Patrick Hines]

Because remember, yeah, Amanda said that Sylvia was shot once, then fell to the ground, then got up and was shot a second time. And the medical examiner is saying that it's, quote, physically impossible for that to happen. And then on top of that, the.

[Interviewee (e.g., Amanda or Trelane or Kimberly)]

Police are really starting to scrutinize Amanda's story as it goes to Amanda's leg injury. The angle of the injury would have been consistent with Amanda holding a gun and pointing it towards her own foot.

[Patrick Hines]

The science says that Amanda shot herself.

[Jillian Benavalli]

In the leg or that the leg injury could have been self inflicted. It looks to me at this point like they're trying to make it like Amanda did this. And I was like, did she? Then they get the results from Amanda's sexual assault evidence kit and they, it comes back, quote, Inconclusive.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. Which we're told isn't a red flag, but in this context it is, because.

[Jillian Benavalli]

We'Re told they're usually very reliable. So I don't know. And I mean, you know, without getting too into it, because, like, who am I to talk about this at all? What a survivor constitute as rape might not necessarily be penetration. Like, is that what they're. Look, I don't know, but it's like, can we just believe her?

[Patrick Hines]

That would be really great. You know, that would be excellent if that were the case.

[Jillian Benavalli]

So between the evidence collection kit and the gunshot, they're saying Amanda's story doesn't make sense. And so now the detectives are interviewing the neighbors, and we're hearing from the neighbors that Amanda and Sylvia are fighting a lot. And the night of the murder, they were heard, according to one neighbor, fighting in their apartment.

[Patrick Hines]

And according to what the story is, is that Amanda, quote, wasn't always very nice to Sylvia, who is our victim here.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Yeah. Can I just tell you that you can hear anything down our hallway? Like, our apartment is pretty big, and it used to be a recording studio, so it's pretty soundproof, but, like, pretty much sound really travels down our hallway.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, when you open the door at all, like, of course the sound's gonna bounce.

[Jillian Benavalli]

And it's just like. Like I conscious of the way that I speak to my family anywhere near the front door. Because all of the neighbors can hear it.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, exactly.

[Jillian Benavalli]

But always a good guy in the story, Steve.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly. So Amanda is now a suspect in this murder. And Sylvia's family is shocked because, remember, they were like, oh, that really nice social worker our sister is with.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Yeah. They are shocked until they aren't. Like, they're kind of shocked, and then they're kind of like, seems like she could have done it.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, you have to think about how the story's being presented to them. Of course, that's a huge thing about how people react to things.

[Jillian Benavalli]

And I'm glad you say that, because we were talking about how we like this series, but this episode to me was a little self congratulatory on the cops part. But the thing about that is, you're right, like, the cops are presenting this to the family as though, like, they know what's going on. And this looks a little suspicious to us.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, I mean, it all depends. You could say something totally benign to someone, and just your tone and how you present it can totally change your reaction.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Or the person's reaction.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So it can be said like, oh, you know it looks like Amanda shot herself in the leg is very different than. Well, that's one option.

[Jillian Benavalli]

It could have been self. Even when I said a second ago. Or it could have been self inflicted. Nobody said that in the episode. I'm just saying that, like, it looks like it could have been self inflicted.

[Patrick Hines]

Right? Like the sexual assault evidence kit being inconclusive could mean a great many things. But they're saying it to the family as like, well, if they're leading them in a certain direction, I mean, you never know how things are being presented.

[Jillian Benavalli]

To the point that Sylvia's funeral is a few days later. Amanda is there and Sylvia's brother Mark has to secretly be nice to her.

[Patrick Hines]

Because they're like, it's just so shitty that this is why, like, you just gotta take care of everything when you're the authorities in this situation. Because they're not. What the family isn't thinking about is that Sylvia's family's at her funeral. And it's hard on the family anyway because remember how their father was murdered not too long ago, so they're mourning their sister and then on top of it, they think that the murder suspect just walked in, right? And then they have to navigate those emotions and like, quote, not mess up the case. And also be nice. And also, is she a murderer?

[Jillian Benavalli]

Like, and also, like, she didn't walk. I'm not saying this to you. I'm saying in general, she didn't walk in. She was wielded in a wheelchair. This woman is like. Like, suffer now. I'm with you. I know at this point of the doc in the episode, we're supposed to think that she did it, but I'm.

[Patrick Hines]

Just saying it's so unfair to do this to the family because what they're going through is bad enough without thinking that the girlfriend that they really liked is probably a murderer according to the police. Like, that's just a shitty thing to do.

[Jillian Benavalli]

I agree.

[Patrick Hines]

Travel down the road. Back again, girl.

[Jillian Benavalli]

ZipRecruiter is back. Look, I've hired lots of people in my day, and I got to tell you, that process can be awful. Whether you're waiting for the right candidates to apply or like you're sorting through resumes. Resumes, or you're not even actually sure what you're looking for. After the fifth resume, you're like, I don't know what to do.

[Patrick Hines]

It's just so time consuming.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

No one has the time anymore.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Well, look, the future of hiring looks much brighter, fam. Because ZipRecruiter's latest tools and features help speed up finding the right people for your roles so you save valuable time. Ever since we started using the recruiter, my life changed.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And now you can try ZipRecruiter for free at ZipRecruiter.com TCO so, fam.

[Jillian Benavalli]

I love ZipRecruiter so much. Much. And with ZipRecruiter's new advances, you can easily find and connect with qualified candidates in minutes. I mean, it literally saved me days of time.

[Patrick Hines]

Because the thing is, if you need someone, you probably needed them before you.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Actually needed them 1 million percent.

[Patrick Hines]

Did that make sense?

[Jillian Benavalli]

Why, yes, Completely.

[Patrick Hines]

And so if you, like, see a candidate you're really interested in, you can, like, unlock their contact info right away.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Which has not been a thing before.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benavalli]

And with over 320,000 new resumes added to ZipRecruiter monthly, this means you can reach more potential hires and fill roles sooner.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. So use ZipRecruiter and save time hiring.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Yeah. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. That was totally my experience.

[Patrick Hines]

And if you go to ZipRecruiter.com TCO right now, you can try it for free.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Again, that's ZipRecruiter.com TCO ZipRecruiter.

[Patrick Hines]

The smartest way to hire hiring people out there.

[Jillian Benavalli]

You know you've been meaning to do this. Today's the day.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And don't be like, oh, my God, it takes so much time. Not anymore.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Not anymore.

[Patrick Hines]

Bye.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Well, now we meet Kimberly. Kimberly is here just to be an awesome lesbian.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. She played softball with. With everyone. And she's Sylvia and Amanda's friend. And she's horrified.

[Jillian Benavalli]

And let me just tell you, Kimberly reminds me of my mom's friends when they were that age. They all were great at softball. Kimberly looks like she's the fucking best. She's the one who brings that big thing of Gatorade. She cuts up the oranges and she brings that for halftime. If that's the thing in baseball, she.

[Patrick Hines]

Needs to make sure everyone's hydrated.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Everyone. Because, well, I know they're all running around hydrating each other because that's what lesbian. It's 1995. They're probably all very excited about upcoming Lilith Fair.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes, exactly. And Kimberly says, I moved to Park.

[Interviewee (e.g., Amanda or Trelane or Kimberly)]

Slope because half of the lesbians in New York City lived in Park Slope. There were just all kinds of people living there.

[Jillian Benavalli]

She had to go be around the lesbians. God, why don't I Live in Park Slope.

[Patrick Hines]

I don't know.

[Jillian Benavalli]

You know what I mean? I should move there.

[Patrick Hines]

Go ahead.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Okay.

[Patrick Hines]

But the community, like, here's. And Kimberly's like, oh, great. And she's kind of making jokes like, all the lesbian. Half the lesbians in New York City live in Park Slope. Ha ha. But she is the one who says, like, yes, the community is saddened and outraged, but the community is defending Amanda.

[Jillian Benavalli]

There's no world in which they think Amanda did this.

[Patrick Hines]

Because they're like, how could the cops think she killed Sylvia? Especially when, by the way, there is a serial rapist on the loose in the neighborhood.

[Jillian Benavalli]

I mean, those words alone shocked me. But then I remembered this. I remembered the Park Slope rapists. Like, that was. We've covered this before. And, like, how. How fucking dare these cops when there is a known rapist on the loose? Be like, it was probably the lesbian girlfriend who did it.

[Patrick Hines]

And Kimberly says, Amanda isn't just gay, she's black.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

So the discrimination of, oh, it's probably the black girlfriend. Like, whatever. It was very, very easy for the cops to make that assumption.

[Jillian Benavalli]

And, like, the cops really want us to know that there's, like, a parallel investigation going on between looking into, like, who is the murderer but also trying to find the rapist. We know. We know you're looking for the rapist cops. We know.

[Patrick Hines]

Fine. So the cops are talking to everyone on the softball team, notably Trelane McKinney.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Trelane, like, a lot of lesbians I know and grew up with can have a little bit of a hot temper.

[Patrick Hines]

Which, like, can't we all?

[Jillian Benavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. So she's Amanda. Amanda who's being accused of murder. She's Amanda's ex girlfriend, and she. I feel so Chilean. Like, it took a lot for her to come here because she's here. Like, she is with us.

[Jillian Benavalli]

But I want to tell y', all. So I say this from true, lived experience. Ex girlfriends in the lesbian community is not really a thing. Like, my mom and her girlfriend Terri were together for 20 years. My mom and Terry broke up. Terry started dating my mom's best friend, and they are now married. So, like, my mom in the nursing home, Terry's new wife is the one that always comes to visit my mother. So it's like, the lesbian community can be very, very close.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, this is what Trillane is saying. So she says that, like, she was with Amanda. She said they'd been, quote, seriously involved. And according to Trelane, Sylvia had come.

[Interviewee (e.g., Amanda or Trelane or Kimberly)]

And started dating Amanda and broken up the relationship between Trelane and Amanda.

[Narrator/Investigator]

A few weeks after the breakup, tensions flared at a softball game that Trelane was umpiring.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Trelane said to Sylvia, I will hurt you. I will kill you.

[Patrick Hines]

There was a fight at one of.

[Jillian Benavalli]

The softball games, and Trelane threatened to kill. Like, literally threatened to kill Sylvia because Trelane was.

[Patrick Hines]

Was the ump. And she's like, oh, like, I got, like, sort of like, saddled with this game. And it was like the, like.

[Jillian Benavalli]

I mean, the what?

[Patrick Hines]

She was the umpire. That's a real thing.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Okay, now that you say the whole word. I didn't know what. The way you said it, with such conviction and authority, the ump. And I didn't know what that. I. I thought that was a lesbian term. I didn't know.

[Patrick Hines]

No, it's a real thing.

[Jillian Benavalli]

No, I'm not laughing at you. I'm laughing at me because now, of course, I've heard of it.

[Patrick Hines]

It's the guy that kicks Tom Hanks out of the game in their own.

[Jillian Benavalli]

All right.

[Patrick Hines]

Anyone ever tell you you look like a penis with a little hat on? Kick them right out of the game.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Also, the lesbians also take softball very seriously.

[Patrick Hines]

But this is like, this is like, really heartbreaking because Trelane is, like, having to deal with the love of her life allegedly. Like, well.

[Jillian Benavalli]

And we'll learn how this breakup happened. It was kind of shitty, like, on Amanda's part.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And like, now she has to, like, be professional at this game. And so anyway, like, everything kind of comes to a head. And Trelane, the witnesses say, like, Trelane definitely threatens Sylvia, saying, I will hurt you. I will kill you. So then it's like, well, is Trelane involved? Is Amanda covering for her? Like, did they plan this? What's going on?

[Jillian Benavalli]

It really. We've seen this before in non lesbian cases, too, where it's like, if you say, I'm going to kill you to somebody and then they die, the cops really look at you.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, they're not crazy to do it, I guess, early, but it's like they don't have any leads at all. And they're already blaming the girlfriend. The black gay girlfriend.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Yeah, it's like a love triangle.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, should they be looking at the rapist? Sure. But when you. When you're looking at everything on paper.

[Jillian Benavalli]

It'S like, well, that really is the other thing. Like, there is a known rapist running around the neighborhood.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. You know, like, you look at it on paper where it's like, okay, these two were together, they had this fight on the softball field. We don't know yet that that's an empty threat. Like, you have no idea.

[Jillian Benavalli]

I just. I forgot how homophobic you are. So, moving on, here comes.

[Patrick Hines]

But the other reason the cops are like, well, we should look at her. Remember that rental car?

[Jillian Benavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Amanda reported it stolen because the killer supposedly grabbed the keys on his way out.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Trulane was definitely a person of interest in this case.

[Narrator/Investigator]

So when officers learned that Sylvia and Amanda's rental car, which Amanda had reported as stolen by the killer, was discovered near Trelane's apartment, our antenna went sky high.

[Patrick Hines]

It was found, like, two blocks away from Trelane's apartment.

[Jillian Benavalli]

But, like, once again, I'm like, wouldn't that rule her out? What kind of idiot killer is gonna, like, steal the car and then park it in front of their house?

[Patrick Hines]

You never know.

[Jillian Benavalli]

I know, but it's like, all of. Sometimes we get that where, like, the thing that's like. See, the car was right next to that. Like, shouldn't that. Obviously, like. I understand. We have to go through the process of, like, ruling her out, because she did scream, I'll kill you in front of a bunch of people.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, either way, they're send the car to the crime lab. So they want to see if there's any evidence they can use. And meanwhile, the cops want to talk to Trillane. And that's when we meet her for the first time. I'm like, I cannot believe she's here. I was not expecting that.

[Jillian Benavalli]

She was arrested at her job. Where.

[Patrick Hines]

Where.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Where does she work?

[Patrick Hines]

I don't know.

[Jillian Benavalli]

The post office.

[Patrick Hines]

She was probably one of the nice ones.

[Jillian Benavalli]

I'm telling you, like, that's the other thing, too, is that, like, you would be so lucky to have a lesbian post office delivery person in your neighborhood.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. But I do want to say, actually, wait. They didn't arrest her. They show up to her job at the post office and haul her out of there in handcuffs. And if it seems excessive, it' because it is. Yeah. They drag her down to the station for questioning, and they make a scene.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

They make, like, the scene out of her for no real reason. They're just questioning her.

[Jillian Benavalli]

She's a lesbian mail carrier. I'm just. I'm obsessed with it. But, you know, this is where Trillane explains the history of, like, what's going on here. And so she had been dating Amanda. They met on the softball league. She was in love with Amanda. She thought it was. She was super hot. They hit it off. They were dating for three years when Sylvia entered the picture. And, like, the way Trelane describes this is that Amanda literally brought. Brought Sylvia home and was like, I want to be with her.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, it's sad. It's really heartbreaking to me because Trelane, even now, like, she's getting emotional and she says, amanda brought Sylvia to our home. And then she takes a beat, and then she repeats it and she goes, she brought her into our home.

[Jillian Benavalli]

I don't know exactly what she means, but it sounds like Amanda was either saying, I want to be with her and we're all going to be together, or I'm going to be with her and you have to leave.

[Patrick Hines]

Or, like, that could also mean that they cheated, were caught cheating in the house. And Amanda said, like. Like, I'm choosing Sylvia over you. Because Chilean says, like, that was a lot for me, and I moved out.

[Jillian Benavalli]

And my note here is, like, suddenly Chilean is the only adult in the room.

[Patrick Hines]

It just seems mean to do. Amanda's not. Amanda's not here. And I don't want to. Like, it just seems like we say it all the time. Like, you can, like, not want to be with Trillane anymore, but it seems like an incredibly harsh way to break someone's heart.

[Jillian Benavalli]

I mean, I was taking it literally. Like, she's like, brought her home, and I was like, here's my new girlfriend. You either need to go or be okay with this.

[Patrick Hines]

I think in a sense that happened. Maybe they were walked in on or something. Or it's like, oh, this their place to cheat or something. I don't know. But, like, something. The way Trelane says that and then repeats, she brought her into our home.

[Jillian Benavalli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

Heartbreaking, and I love that.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Trelane goes on to say, did I threaten to kill Sylvia? That's a hard yes. And I end up having Sylvia's game. And I called her out, and then she comes up in my face and, you know, like, saying, back off. Back off. Next thing I know, I will kill you. I will hurt you. I definitely did that.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And she's like, look, I was furious, and I had to see them all the time. Like, there was no distance. She goes. Tempers were flying. Like, to be fair, everyone was screaming at each other. And she says, like, it was an empty threat then, it's an empty threat now. But, like, in the mix of all of this insanity and the way that the cops are just, like, have these blinders on. The cops are treating her shittily.

[Jillian Benavalli]

The cops. We just get so much of 20, 23 cops, whatever year this episode was made, wanting us to know how hard worked and how much they cared. But, like, we're seeing the evidence of them being kind of lazy about it.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And like, they don't really have any leads. They can't prove that Trelane did anything. Like, they need the forensics. All they have is this empty threat.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Well, and they get the forensics from the car back, and there was nothing. Like, whoever had this car, like, wiped it clean. There's no fingerprints, there's no DNA. There's nothing there.

[Patrick Hines]

And the cops are saying, like, okay, so there's nothing linking Trelane to Sylvia's murder. Fine. But there's also nothing that they say that backs up Amanda's story because there's no force entry. There's no male DNA anywhere. There's nothing.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Why would there be forced entry? Like, they told him that he had a gun. They let them into the house. Like, it's, you know, like there's no story in which she's like, he broke into the house.

[Patrick Hines]

I agree. And I'm not defending the cops. No, I know you're not.

[Jillian Benavalli]

I just. When you said it, I was like, hearing it again for the first time. Like, she never claimed there was forced entry. You know, 1995 is not 2025. There's not surveillance video everywhere. There's not. You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

And there's no male DNA, so there's no witnesses.

[Jillian Benavalli]

And the sexual assault recovery kit came back inconclusive. And the gunshot looked like it could have been self inflicted. Like, I guess I get it, it. But it's. You know, there's also a rapist on the loose in the neighborhood.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly. Travel down, girl.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Rocket Money is back. Look, we all know we can say it by heart by now. Rocket Money is the personal finance app that helps you find and cancel unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps you lower your bill so you can grow your savings.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, I love this so much because it shows all your expenses in one place, like, all the subscriptions. So, as you know, I'm winding down the Hamilcast, so there are going to be a lot of subscriptions that I don't really need anymore.

[Jillian Benavalli]

That's going to be nice for you.

[Patrick Hines]

It is going to be nice, but if I didn't have Rocket Money, I'd be worried that I was forgetting one.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Listen. And they are in touch with you. Like, any time we do, like, a charitable donation, they'll be like, hey, this seems unusual. Is this. Did you mean to do this?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Seeing everything in one place instead of like, scrolling through my phone and being like, wait, or, like, going back through emails. That dashboard is so helpful.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Yes. And listen, if you've got a goal you'd like to save for, Rocket Money can analyze your accounts to find the best time each month to put extra money aside. How amazing is that?

[Patrick Hines]

Even more amazing. They will negotiate lower bills for you.

[Jillian Benavalli]

This is my favorite.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, they will try their best. The app automatically scans your bills and finds opportunities to save, and then they just do it. They, like, go to work on getting you better deals, and then they email you about it.

[Jillian Benavalli]

They're like, that's done.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. They will talk to customer service so you don't have to. Unbelievable.

[Jillian Benavalli]

It's unbelievable. So, fam. Rocket Money's 5 million members have saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, with members saving up to 740 bucks a year when they use all the app's premium features on.

[Patrick Hines]

Unbelievable. So cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Go to Rocket Money.com obsessed today.

[Patrick Hines]

That's RocketMoney.com obsessed.

[Jillian Benavalli]

RocketMoney.com obsessed.

[Patrick Hines]

Which we are.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Which we are.

[Patrick Hines]

If it's not clear. So it's August 14, 1995. They question Amanda again, and she's like, look, I don't know what to tell you. Maybe I was groggy from the painkillers. I guess some, like, sure, some details were wrong. But I'm telling you, telling you, the overall story that I told you is correct. Did I forget? Was it, like, did I turn to the left or right? Fine. But what I said to you is what happened.

[Jillian Benavalli]

And also, I was in the middle of the most, like, horrific assault of my life. I'm sorry if my memory's not crystal clear.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Amanda takes a polygraph test. Now, I know that we know that polygraph tests are ridiculous, but we are always told that if you take a polygraph, if you agree to the polygraph and you pass it, you're ruled out. She passes the polygraph graph with flying, fudgeing, lesbian rainbow pride flag colors. And they're like, they're still not ready to rule her out as a suspect.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, this is one of the only times we hear a cop be like, well, right. Polygraphs aren't admissible in court in New York State. It's like, it's always on me to remind everyone that. Except when it's this case.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

So when the lesbians hear that Amanda is still a suspect while there's a serial rapist terrorizing the community, our host is like, all hell breaks out. And Kimberly Is like, you're God damn.

[Interviewee (e.g., Amanda or Trelane or Kimberly)]

So Kimberly's like, we protested, we marched. It really did feel like, because we were women, because we were lesbians. Like, let's wrap this up right away.

[Narrator/Investigator]

The LGBTQ community and the police department had a fractured relationship.

[Patrick Hines]

And I want this quote to be heard. The LGBTQ community and the police department had a fractured relationship.

[Jillian Benavalli]

So this is where I made a note. I was like, hang on a second.

[Patrick Hines]

To put it very lightly.

[Jillian Benavalli]

You want to. Can we just go down a list of reasons why the gays don't trust. Trust the cops. The years of raiding our bars, beating up our people and trapping men in bathrooms, sending people to prison on purpose, printing our names in the newspapers, ruining our lives just for the fun of it. And now all of a sudden, they're totally trying to, like, rewrite that history. There's a reason for that. Distrust and dislike. And by the way, marginalized communities are great at organizing. That's why they were able to organize these marches so quickly. We have to do it every year. We still have to do it, you know?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. So they use the word fractured and then not explaining why it's fractured. And then we get like a commerc, essentially about how, quote, the NYPD learned and improved. We formed a bureau to better serve the LGBTQ population.

[Jillian Benavalli]

And I'm like, I looked this bureau up because I was like, what is that? I've never heard of this. In all of the years I've lived in New York, I've been here for 25 years. I've never knew that there was, like, a bureau. You would think that would be, like a task force. It is one person with two people working under her. Thank God it's at least a woman at the head of it.

[Patrick Hines]

But, like, she better be gay.

[Jillian Benavalli]

I would fucking or non binary or.

[Patrick Hines]

You know, she better be part of the community.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Yes, yes, 100%. But it's one fucking person. You know what I mean? And like. But also, where are they? There's one person at the head of this bureau. This person is not interviewed for the camera. They do not tell us what they did to help the community.

[Patrick Hines]

And also, you're not done. Nypd, they kind of act like, oh, it was, quote, fractured. So really, like, sugarcoating it. And then how the NYPD learned and improved, period.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, it's not a living, breathing process or like, they did anything valuable at all, really.

[Jillian Benavalli]

I will give the NYPD the props that they are due. Like, for example, there was one. One year, it was maybe 2004. 2005 or whatever, that the heritage of Pride, who runs Pride, who, like, you know, the big annual Pride celebration forgot to file for their permits for the march, and had they not, the march would not have fudgeing happened and the cops went and did it for them. Okay, so there are moments where the cops have made good.

[Patrick Hines]

And I gotta tell you, especially when it's really good pr.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Totally. Right? Like, how do I know that story?

[Patrick Hines]

You know what I mean? In my most cynical bone, it's kind of like, well, of course they did, because first of all, the hell that would break loose if they didn't.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Right, Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

And it's great pr, but it's just.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Like there is, is. There's a lot of distrust there. LGBTQ and like, sure, like white gay men like me are probably treated fine when, if I ever have to, like, encounter the police. But what about, like, our trans brothers and sisters? Our, you know, brothers and sisters and non binary folks of color? Like, it is not good. It's not even. It's not even like, fine. It's not. It's.

[Patrick Hines]

It's not bad. It's very not good.

[Jillian Benavalli]

So, you know, lots of, lots of. And that's why this, this episode was like, just so self congratulatory and I fucking hate it.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Because there's one part of me that's like, oh, cool, you told us the story. That's a step forward, I guess.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Even though to the casual viewer it's like. And they did good work too, right?

[Jillian Benavalli]

Totally. We created a bureau with one person on it.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, no, Kimberly and her friends did the good work because they're protesting nonstop. They're telling the cops, don't look at Amanda. Like, plea. They're begging them to find the Park Slope rapists. And like, this piece of shit needs to be found. No question.

[Jillian Benavalli]

So now we learn. It's September 16, 1995. It's two months after the attack on Amanda and Sylvia. Just a half mile from their apartment. Apartment, a stranger follows a young woman into her apartment building. Police went to the right place at the right time when they arrested 26 year old Tony Harrison.

[Narrator/Investigator]

Based on victim IDs, our investigators believe they finally caught the Park Slope rapist.

[Jillian Benavalli]

This results in the arrest of the Park Slope Rapist. Yeah, and we learned that this person's name is Tony Harrison. He's 26 years old. But the question is, is he the same guy that attacked Sylvia and Amanda?

[Patrick Hines]

Because he doesn't match the description that Amanda gave the guy. So she said he was like a Short, thin, Latino guy, had a very, very thin mustache. And the guy that they picked up, the Park Slope rapist, is not that he's a black guy. He's tall. He's much heavier. So it doesn't match what Amanda said, but still, like, okay, we got one piece of shit off the street. We'll take it.

[Jillian Benavalli]

And it's kind of wild that, like, wow. Like, the Park Slope rapist is not the man who broke in and raped and killed and raped Amanda and killed Sylvia. There's, like, multiple of that happen. Happening in that neighborhood at once, which.

[Patrick Hines]

Is not good for Amanda, because, Right. If her friends and the community are saying, like, get the rapists. And the cops are like, we did. And now we're still looking at your friend. Like, that's a problem for me. Yeah.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Yeah, it's true.

[Patrick Hines]

So the cops release the description or the sketch of Amanda's description and put out a $10,000 reward. They're getting nothing. No tips, no leads, no information, no forensics from the car. Like, nothing.

[Jillian Benavalli]

And Kimberly is, like, describing what a really hard time this was for Amanda. And she was saying it was a really hard time for her. But we all believe the best way to honor Sylvia was to make that Amanda wasn't wrongfully convicted of her murder. And I gotta tell you, there was a part of me that looked like it was going in that direction.

[Patrick Hines]

Absolutely. And also, like, just to bring it back to Sylvia for a minute, her friends and family are devastated because they're torn up over this too. Like, because now it's like, okay, so now the community. There's like, all the strife in the community. Did Amanda do it? Did she not? They kind of don't know what to think. They're still mourning their father. They're mourning their sister. Like, her family.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Is devastated that this rapist guy that they caught is not the same one from the apartment. Like, once they realize that there's no leads, and once they realize that it doesn't match Amanda saying, they're like, wait, like, their heads are spinning. I just. My heart breaks for them.

[Jillian Benavalli]

And it's true, because, like, to the cops, it's like, well, we caught the partial rapist.

[Patrick Hines]

That's what you wanted. We did what you wanted.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Yeah. But, like, imagine the people living in the world of reality where they're like, oh, my God, there's more than one person out there. Do it. Like, that's the other thing that barely even gets touched on in this episode is how afraid everybody in that community must have been.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Benavalli]

That Even once the rapist is caught, it's not the guy. There's still another guy out there, right?

[Patrick Hines]

So it's March 30, 1996, eight months after Sylvia's murder, and we hear about a woman named Gabrielle Kearns.

[Narrator/Investigator]

A young woman named Gabrielle Kearns is sitting in her car. A man with a gun approaches her and demands everything she has.

[Jillian Benavalli]

He tried to take her vehicle, she wouldn't give it to him. She put up a fight and he shot her in the head.

[Patrick Hines]

The man shoots her and she survives. The attacker is named Alex Villanueva. He's an 19 years old. Talk about, we talk about this all the time, like throwing your whole entire fucking life away.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Oh, I know.

[Patrick Hines]

Like these are your choices at 19 years old. Oh my God.

[Jillian Benavalli]

And somehow they catch him really fast. And when they catch him, he's got a semi automatic handgun on him.

[Patrick Hines]

And once they get a good look at him, he looks exactly like Amanda's description. He's wearing the same baseball cap.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Can we get a Grammy and an Academy Award to this police sketch artist? Because like based on Amanda's description, he looked exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

And it's like, okay, Amanda's memory was a little foggy, but she remembered the shit that counts. So sorry everyone for being like, well, a couple details were wrong. Not a single detail was wrong about this guy because the sketch artist was able to make a perfect rendering.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Yeah, so they don't have a lot on him, but that's fine because he just wants to admit to all of his crimes anyway.

[Patrick Hines]

They say he's quote, unusually eager to cooperate. This little fucking twerp calls himself Little Gotti because he sees himself as untouchable. Like, please, what? But then. So while they're talking to him, he confesses to yet another unsolved murder.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And this was a, what they call an execution style murder two months before Sylvia's murder.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Yeah, the man's name was Michael Terrell. I actually looked into this crime today and there really is like precious little on the Internet about what happened to him. But the killer put a pillow over his head and shot him in the head and killed him. And like, and he's just admitting to this. Like they didn't know anything about this. They weren't going to connect him to it at all. He's just admitting to it.

[Patrick Hines]

And they're like, okay, well Michael Terrell was shot in the head. Gabrielle Kearns in the car was shot in the head.

[Jillian Benavalli]

And we know he did those two things.

[Patrick Hines]

And so Sylvia Lugo was also shot in the head. And he is like, yes, you're absolutely. He confesses to Sylvia's murder and then starts bragging about it.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And he says, and this is where I'm like, how do you get this at 19 years old? He's like.

[Interviewee (e.g., Amanda or Trelane or Kimberly)]

He explained when he described Sylvia Lugo's murder, he said that he wasn't targeting anybody, but he was in the area and saw them, had a gun, and decided, why not?

[Patrick Hines]

I had a gun. I said, hey, why not? That's his whole confession.

[Jillian Benavalli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

So he describes everything he did to Amanda and Sylvia in detail. He sees them on the street, getting out of the car. I guess he sees two women, like, they just come home from vacation. So I guess they, like, had a bunch of stuff with them. He decided to attack them. He basically confirms everything Amanda told police. The attack, the rape, Sylvia coming in during the rape, shooting and killing Sylvia. Shooting Amanda in the leg, stealing the car keys, stealing the jewelry on his way out. Because, you know, this wasn't in the paper because they weren't, like, giving any attention to this case. So this guy is saying stuff that, like, only he could. The public didn't know.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So then it's like, okay, so then why. Hey, idiot. Why was the car parked near Trelane's apartment? Amanda's ex, the former suspect.

[Jillian Benavalli]

And we learned that's where his probation officer lived. And it was just a pure coincidence that it was the same neighborhood as.

[Patrick Hines]

Trillane and he was there visiting his probation officer. And then when he leaves the probation officer's apartment, suddenly, because of his fucking actions, the block was crawling with cops. And he's like, you know what? I'm just going to leave the car here.

[Jillian Benavalli]

I don't need that rental car anymore.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, he's like, better than leave the car than get into a stolen car near police because they might, like, look at him. So he just, like, sees the lights and sirens, he's like, all right, I'm out, and leave. Leaves the car there. Travel down the road, back again, girl.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Zebiotics Pre Alcohol Probiotic is back. Look, this was a big thing in our house.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes. So zbiotics Pre Alcohol Probiotic drink is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Oh, my God, it's so sciency. It was invented by PhD scientists, fam. To tackle rough mornings after drinking. Thanks for having our back page.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes. Here's how it works. When you drink, alcohol gets converted into a toxic. Toxic byproduct in the gut, right.

[Jillian Benavalli]

It's the buildup of this byproduct. Not dehydration. That's to blame for the rough days after drinking.

[Patrick Hines]

Pre alcohol produces an enzyme to break this byproduct down.

[Jillian Benavalli]

So just remember to take the pre alcohol as your first drink of the night. Drink responsibly and then you'll feel your best tomorrow.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Remember to have the water. Remember to eat truly.

[Jillian Benavalli]

But do take it first and it tastes good.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, you absolutely take it for it. It's just like it's a little shot.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Do you know when we have people over for our happy hours, we hand them out.

[Patrick Hines]

It's smart.

[Jillian Benavalli]

So them fall is right around. Around the corner. So that means it's time to raise a glass to your favorite team. Especially me, girl.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes, absolutely.

[Jillian Benavalli]

What is it that. It's the Chiefs, right?

[Patrick Hines]

Absolutely.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Go.

[Patrick Hines]

Taylor's boyfriend. Whether or fiance. Whether you are tailgating, enjoying a college game day, or watching Sunday's action on that fancy new TV, don't forget ZBiotics pre alcohol probiotic drink.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Drink a pre alcohol before drinking and enjoy great days after celebrating all season long.

[Patrick Hines]

Go to zebiotic.com tco to learn more and get 15% off your first order when you use TCO at checkout.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Zebiotics is backed with a 100% money back guarantee, so if you're unsatisfied for any reason, they'll refund your money, no questions asked.

[Patrick Hines]

Remember to head to zebiotics.com tco and use the code tco at checkout for 15% off.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Thank you Zebiotics, for sponsoring this episode and our good times. And thanks for Travis Kelce for being the guy in the Chiefs that comes home to me.

[Patrick Hines]

There you go.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Did I do it?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, we'll give it to you.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Okay.

[Patrick Hines]

We'll give it to you. No need to go to the videotape.

[Jillian Benavalli]

No, no, no, no, no. So now, finally, the cops have to admit or acknowledge that Amanda's been telling the truth the whole time because the.

[Patrick Hines]

Same gun used to shoot Gabrielle Kearns also shot Sylvia Lugo. Because finally we have forensics that are working in our favor in terms of solving this thing.

[Jillian Benavalli]

And so, like, Amanda is brought in to do a lineup, and we get this whole five. We haven't talked about lineups in a while, but apparently they're happening all the time in the the city. And, you know, we get this expert who's telling us it's very emotional for a witness to actually see the perpetrator on the other side of the glass. Every witness is really frightened to do a lineup because they're afraid that they're going to remember it wrong or pick the wrong person out. Also, you're afraid you're going to get it wrong. Like, if you pick the wrong guy, then. Then, like, the bad guy gets away.

[Patrick Hines]

And what if they see you? Like, it happens on SVU all the time. Or an accident where it's like, oh, like you're supposed to be escorting her out the back. Or they, like, let the people. And then it's like, oh, my God, it's too. Oh, yeah, that.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Did that happen in real life?

[Patrick Hines]

I doubt it. I don't know. Hopefully not.

[Jillian Benavalli]

I'm sure not Julian's Law.

[Patrick Hines]

I hope it's. I hope it, like, never happens, but I'm sure it has to have happened. I mean, that's part of the. That would be. I mean, maybe. I don't know what my biggest fear in that situation would be, but I. I would think that would be a major part of it is, like, what if he sees me? Like, what if he sees me, like, even in the vicinity of the precinct? Then he would know.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Yeah, of course.

[Patrick Hines]

Or maybe he wouldn't leave the precinct. I don't know. But I'd be like, he knows. He knows it's me. He definitely knows it would be.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Was scary.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, he knows it's me. He has to. And also, like, just to hit that point home, every single thing Amanda said was true.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Everything she said was true.

[Jillian Benavalli]

And she picks him out of the lineup right away. That's the guy right there.

[Patrick Hines]

We also never get back to the fact that the medical examiner said Sylvia could not have gotten up after being shot. We never get into that. We also never get into the other side of the explanation for Amanda, quote, shooting herself in the leg. Like, we never get back to that.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, they say, like, it could have, but they don't say, like, here's what actually happened.

[Jillian Benavalli]

I mean, at one point they mentioned that there was, like, a tussle and that, like, the gun was probably down, like, it maybe went off or something. And she shot at, like, a weird angle.

[Patrick Hines]

Plant that in the beginning. And then they never, like, exonerate. Because Amanda, who is a survivor.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And has been harassed for over a year.

[Jillian Benavalli]

I was going to say, now she's a survivor of this. Like, in addition to what this piece of shit did her, now she survived, like, being accused of her girlfriend's murder for a year.

[Patrick Hines]

And now the cops are like, oh, yeah, sorry about that. Can you help us get this guy? Like, can you tell your story again and do a lineup and testify and she does. And I'm just like, the trauma that they put so many people through. But like, to talk about Amanda for a second, going through the horrible ordeal, grieving Sylvia, being accused of murder, being a pariah, because while so many people were on her side, a lot of people in the community were not, including.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Some of Sylvia's family. Like when Sylvia's family says they were shocked to find out that Amanda was innocent.

[Patrick Hines]

And not to mention being shot in the leg, which was no picnic. And she wasn't able to work because of it. Just like, oh, the layers of it. And then Sylvia's family is like, yeah, us too. Like now. The guilt of not just believing Amanda or like, hearing what. Believing what they were told or whatever. Yeah, it's just like. Like it's a mess.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Yes, it's.

[Patrick Hines]

The whole thing is a fucking mess.

[Jillian Benavalli]

And, like, we don't ever see Amanda in this episode. We don't know how she's doing. But, like, presumably it's been a hard.

[Patrick Hines]

Go for her because at Trelane, her ex says Amanda lost her dignity. She wasn't the same after all of that. And Charlaine too.

[Narrator/Investigator]

Charlaine McKinney suffered too. She lost her job and was shunned by her own community.

[Jillian Benavalli]

You know how paper blows in the wind? That's how I felt. I felt useless just letting it take me away.

[Patrick Hines]

This was just awful. And the cops are just like, you know what? It's the cost of doing business. Honestly, like, there's really nothing you can do about it. And I'm like, there are about a million things you could have done.

[Jillian Benavalli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, even if it's like, wow, Amanda was a suspect for a really long time. That's different than harassing her, hauling Trelane out of her job in handcuffs just to be questioned, which is totally a fucking violation of her civil rights. There's no, you don't. If you. There was no reason to arrest her.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Right?

[Patrick Hines]

No reason. I mean, no reason to handcuff her.

[Jillian Benavalli]

And also, why put. Put somebody in a position of being the liaison for the community or whatever and then. But not activating them to do anything.

[Patrick Hines]

Unbelievable.

[Jillian Benavalli]

You know?

[Patrick Hines]

Unbelievable. And so, like, the killer who's, like, thrilled to be talking about all of this, pleads guilty to everything. Yeah, Happily, almost. Second degree murder of Sylvia Lugo and Michael Terrell, the attempted murder of Gabrielle Kearns, and the rape of Amanda Leach.

[Jillian Benavalli]

I was really thinking about this. Like, when they describe him, they said that he was a drifter who, like, mostly lived on the streets. And I Was like, did he admit to all of this just so he could have a permanent place to, like, call home?

[Patrick Hines]

I don't know.

[Jillian Benavalli]

You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

At 19 years old, it's like his rap sheet for 19 and the violence, like.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

To say, like, it was a crime of opportunity, but to be so violent and to rape Amanda that way. And just like, he know he had.

[Jillian Benavalli]

No. He didn't have any intention of getting away with it. You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Benavalli]

It's not like he fled the area. It's not like he. Like, he was just doing the same thing over and over again in the same neighborhood. Like he knew he was going to get caught.

[Patrick Hines]

I wonder. And maybe not like, I mean, sometimes people are. They just do insanely evil shit. But I wonder if there. If there's more to what he said. Not in a defending him way, but if there's more to what he said that we're not hearing. Because it just seems like you're killing men, you're killing women. Sometimes you're sexually violent, sometimes you're not. Like, it just was like, almost like he had this violence and darkness in him that just, like, needed to fucking get out. And so you see that sometimes, like, it's so scary. It is so scary.

[Jillian Benavalli]

And like, in the end, he gets 50 years to life and that's that.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And Amanda's not here.

[Jillian Benavalli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

I thought that was very, very telling that Amand was not here.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Not a part of the story for.

[Patrick Hines]

Whatever it could have been. It could have been as simply as like, I'm not gonna go to this fucking kind of copaganda true crime show. Like, I've been through a fucking enough.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

I told my story and they didn't want to hear it. I'm not telling it again. 100 story once. They didn't want to hear it. They accused me of murder. They made me a pariah. And then when they needed my help and realized everything I said was right, I told it a second time. I'm not doing number three.

[Jillian Benavalli]

No. But when I see Kimberly at the Cubby Hole this weekend, I will ask her if she'll go speak on my behalf. You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

And I'm speculating wildly, but it would not surprise me if that's what Amanda said.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm not telling this a third time.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Absolutely not.

[Patrick Hines]

So you can congratulate yourself again. Hell no. Hell no.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Oh, my God, girl. We did. What's it called?

[Patrick Hines]

So this is our 12th bonus episode. The show is New York Homicide Season 1. Episode 5, Broken Pride. Broken Pride. Man.

[Jillian Benavalli]

Fam. Join the Facebook group. Join us on the Patreon, but only if you like bonus episodes of Drag Bingo.

[Patrick Hines]

And like, super fun times.

[Jillian Benavalli]

And super fun times. You do. You do have to like the super.

[Patrick Hines]

Fun times, but you have to specifically like them ad free.

[Jillian Benavalli]

And you do have to like them.

[Patrick Hines]

That's the only caveat is, like, you can like, if you want super fun times with ads in them. Patreon is not for you.

[Jillian Benavalli]

And listen, that is true. And while we're on the subject, I would like to point out that you do want to go hear our coverage of Amy Bradley.

[Patrick Hines]

Do you?

[Jillian Benavalli]

I think you really do. We're about to do a nine hour coverage of our third episode of Amy Bradley.

[Patrick Hines]

And like, right after the end of the goddamn, we're fine.

[Jillian Benavalli]

But you know what? There's more lesbians. There's more awesome lesbians. I'm very excited to talk about Molly. It's insane. I've really come around on this case.

[Patrick Hines]

I think I knew you would. Didn't take much.

[Jillian Benavalli]

All right. We love you, fam.

[Patrick Hines]

We love you. See you next time. By.