460: Murder Has Two Faces: Good Guys Gone Bad

Summary

True Crime Obsessed – Episode 460: Murder Has Two Faces: Good Guys Gone Bad

Release Date: October 9, 2025
Hosts: Patrick Hines & Julie Benavali

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Episode Overview

This third and final bonus episode on the Murder Has Two Faces series, titled “Good Guys Gone Bad,” examines the chilling similarities—and stark differences—between the high-profile case of the “Craigslist Killer” in Boston and the less-publicized “Tagged Killer” in New Jersey. Hosts Patrick Hines and Julie Benavali recap the documentary with their trademark humor, empathy, and candor, focusing especially on survivor Tiffany Taylor and the social context of the crimes. The discussion centers on victim-blaming, systemic racism, law enforcement failures, the politics of media attention, and the importance of survivor-centered storytelling.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting Up the Episode (00:38–02:09)

• Theme Introduction:

  • Patrick and Julie explain the episode focuses on the comparison between two killers using online platforms to target victims: the “Craigslist Killer” and the “Tagged Killer.”
  • Immediately, the tone is set around how media coverage and police response differ depending on the identity of both victim and perpetrator.

• Memorable Quote:

  • “You would think these cases would get the same attention, and they don’t.” – Julie (01:21)
  • “If they would have just believed me, who knows how many girls would still be here.” – Tiffany Taylor (01:43)

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2. Victims’ Stories & Law Enforcement Failures (02:13–13:52)

Robin West’s Disappearance and Family’s Ordeal

• Victim Profile: Robin West—young Black woman, singer, daughter of a pastor and police officer.
• Family Response: Father Leroy's relentless search for information is met with indifference (07:10).
• Police Response: Despite clear leads (e.g., friend provided suspect’s license plate), officers dismissed crucial evidence and failed to act.
• Systemic Issues: Robin was mischaracterized as a sex worker (11:08), resulting in less urgency from police.

Comparing Media Attention

• Craigslist Killer Case (Boston): Immediate, widespread coverage; victim Trisha Leffler is treated respectfully, and investigative resources rapidly deployed.
• Tagged Killer Case (New Jersey): Largely ignored by media and police, especially when victims are Black female sex workers.
• Memorable Quote:
  • “Over in Boston, the Craigslist killer is all over the news even though he too is targeting sex workers.” – Patrick (12:14)
  • “The media is not going to cover stories of Black sex workers.” – Julie (12:42)

Victim Blaming and Racial Bias

• Highlighted Bias: Law enforcement and media treat sex workers (especially Black women) with disdain and skepticism.
• Added Insight:
  • Leah Webb, NY State Senator: “Stories and cases about Black women and girls are underreported to a staggering degree.” (12:54)
  • “Black women have always been hypersexualized. When we’re talking about Black female sex workers, it actually becomes even more negative.” – Tiffany Taylor (13:01)

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3. Tiffany Taylor’s Story: Survival and Dismissal (13:53–26:24)

Tiffany’s Ordeal (15:51–23:30)

• Survivor Narrative: Tiffany Taylor, a pregnant Black woman, is violently assaulted by the Tagged Killer but manages to escape using quick thinking.
• Law Enforcement Response: Despite providing the perpetrator’s name, address, and phone number, police disregard her claims, lose her report, and force her to repeat her traumatic story multiple times.
• Bodycam Footage: Reveals officers instantly victim-blaming (“So you let him put duct tape on you?” – Officer, 22:11), skepticism, and a culture of disbelief.
• Notable Exchange:
  • “They did not believe me at all. I just felt like they wanted to lock me up.” – Tiffany Taylor (22:24)

Contrast with Boston’s Response

• Trisha Leffler’s escape from the Craigslist Killer results in public attention, swift action, and empathetic treatment from police. Tiffany’s parallel experience is dismissed.

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4. How the Killers Were (Not) Stopped (26:25–38:42)

Investigation Breakdowns

• Police were in possession of both suspect’s names and crucial evidence repeatedly (e.g., Robin’s friend’s license plate photo, Tiffany’s detailed tip), yet failed to connect the dots or take action.
• Jurisdictional Issues: Lack of communication between agencies (Philly, New Jersey) compounded the problem.
• Family and Friends as Investigators: In Sarah Butler’s disappearance (another Tagged Killer victim), her friends and sister conduct their own online sleuthing (“Let the women do the work.” – Julie, 36:19), catfishing the suspect to aid police in his eventual apprehension.

Media & Systemic Failures

• Both killers used technology to find victims; both were ultimately brought down by digital evidence. Yet only the Craigslist Killer’s story was widely reported, because of race and class.
• Notable Quote:
  • “Both cases: arranged on the internet, involved a sex worker who got away, met at a hotel, both caught on surveillance video… except one case is ignored.” – Patrick & Julie, paraphrased (43:01–43:29)

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5. Reflections on Justice, Forgiveness, and Systemic Change (46:15–54:55)

Aftermath and Sentencing

• Khalil Wheeler-Weaver (Tagged Killer): Sentenced to 160 years, still faces more charges. Yet families argue more should have been prevented if police had listened to early survivors.
• Robin’s Father, Leroy: Strives to “turn pain into purpose,” extends forgiveness to the killer’s mother:
  • “I had the opportunity to pray with his mother because she was sitting there in tears, and she was saying, ‘Where did I go wrong?’ And I had to say to her, ‘You did nothing wrong. He did this. My anger is not going to bring my daughter back.’” – Leroy (49:15)

Victim-Survivor Solidarity

• Leroy and Tiffany forge a surrogate family bond through tragedy and healing.
• Notable Quote:
  • “I lost a daughter, but I gained a daughter for the rest of our lives.” – Leroy (51:13)

Statistics and Policy

• Leah Webb: “More than 250,000 women and girls go missing every year. Of those, 30% are Black women and girls. It is a systemic failure.” (47:54)
• The case only garnered media attention and police interest once the suspect was labeled a “serial killer.”

Calls for Change

• Hosts advocate:
  • Mental health professionals on set during interviews.
  • Police to publicly admit their failures.
  • Media to treat every victim equitably.
  • The decriminalization and regulation of sex work for safety purposes.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “If they would have just believed me, who knows how many girls would still be here.”
  – Tiffany Taylor (01:43, also echoed later)
• “They did not believe me at all. I just felt like they wanted to lock me up.”
  – Tiffany Taylor (22:24)
• “So you let him duct tape you?”
  – Officer (22:11)
• “We gotta help out these women. The stigma is...it’s so ridiculous.”
  – Patrick Hines (30:28)
• “Let the women do the work.”
  – Julie Benavali (36:19)
• “Do your fucking jobs.”
  – Leroy (46:36)
• “Be the change you want to see in the world...do the right thing, everybody. And you’re also not alone.”
  – Patrick Hines (54:32)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Time | |----------------------------------------|-----------| | Comparing the killers & opening theme | 00:38–02:09 | | Robin West’s story, policing failures | 02:13–13:52 | | Race, sex work & media bias | 12:14–14:22 | | Tiffany Taylor’s survival & dismissal | 15:51–26:24 | | Bodycam footage & law enforcement bias | 21:36–23:36 | | Boston vs. NJ response | 27:25–28:34 | | Sarah Butler’s friends as investigators| 34:30–36:59 | | Systemic critique and statistics | 47:44–48:20 | | Leroy’s forgiveness and reflection | 49:15–51:00 | | Hosts’ calls to action/advocacy | 54:49–54:55 |

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Tone & Style Highlights

• Empathetic, direct, often irreverent but always respectful toward victims and survivors.
• Honest frustration at systemic failures.
• Humor used to highlight absurdity (often darkly), break tension, and deepen emotional engagement.
• Frequent calls to action for societal, journalistic, and law enforcement reforms.

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a powerful testament to the dangers of selective media coverage and law enforcement indifference—particularly for Black, female, and sex-working victims. The hosts celebrate survivor Tiffany Taylor, honor all the victims, and highlight the crucial failures that allowed a serial killer to continue killing. Ultimately, the show urges society to listen, believe, and support all survivors.

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In Memory Of:

• Robin West (19)
• Joanne Brown (33)
• Sarah Butler (20)
• Mawa Dumbia (15)

For survivors of sexual assault, visit RAINN.org or call 1-800-656-HOPE.

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“Only the people who have lived this can help heal it in each other.” – Julie (52:24)

Transcript

[Julie Benavali]

I think that people should know that we're doing six episodes this week. We're recording six episodes this week.

[Patrick Hines]

We're recording six episodes this week.

[Julie Benavali]

We used to record one episode a week.

[Patrick Hines]

That's insane.

[Julie Benavali]

Back in the day. Can you remember?

[Patrick Hines]

No.

[Julie Benavali]

Like, what were we doing?

[Patrick Hines]

It feels fake. Who is she? Who is that?

[Julie Benavali]

Hi. Julie Benavali.

[Patrick Hines]

Hello. Patrick Hines. Also, we're saying that with love, we are thrilled that we get to do this.

[Julie Benavali]

I'm just saying gratitude.

[Patrick Hines]

It's a lot by Sunday. My voice. Because we're recording on Saturday this week, too. So we're doing a Monday, Wednesday, Saturday, over the weekend. I know usually we're Tuesday, Thursday, girlies, but we have a whole lot going on. Anyway, we love you. Hi. Hi.

[Narrator/Commentator]

All right.

[Julie Benavali]

What are we talking about today, girl?

[Patrick Hines]

This is our 15th bonus episode. This is that series that we love, Murder Has Two Faces. This is the third and last episode of the series.

[Julie Benavali]

What year is this from? Do you know?

[Patrick Hines]

Like, it just came out this year.

[Julie Benavali]

So maybe they'll make more.

[Patrick Hines]

Maybe. Yeah.

[Julie Benavali]

Okay.

[Patrick Hines]

But it's only three episodes out. And this is the third one. It's called Good Guys Gone Bad.

[Narrator/Commentator]

Between the Craigslist Killer and the Tagged Killer, they're eerily similar.

[Julie Benavali]

They were these nice guys that had conventional good looks from these regular middle class homes. And they both had been living double lives. Now, sources do tell me that the suspect comes from a law enforcement family.

[Narrator/Commentator]

They had a side of violence nobody saw coming. You're just a normal guy.

[Julie Benavali]

You would think that these cases would get the same type of attention, and they don't.

[Narrator/Commentator]

Craigslist Killer's first victim, she was able to escape. She was taken seriously. And the Craigslist Killer, he's caught after two weeks with Tag. You have four women killed, only one who's able to escape, but it takes months to find him.

[Tiffany Taylor]

Usually when somebody comes to the police and they tell a story like yours, there's press conferences and news bulletins, but there was none of that. There was none of that. The silence. Days after I escaped, he was already killing again. If they would have just believed me, who knows how many girls would still be here.

[Julie Benavali]

We open with a 911 call that has an AI dispatcher.

[Patrick Hines]

Don't. Don't like that.

[Julie Benavali]

No. And I was like, did the dispatcher say something so horrible that we couldn't use their audio? We'll get back, we'll get to the call again in the episode so we can talk about it more then. But I was like, that was weird.

[Patrick Hines]

No, I'm not cool.

[Julie Benavali]

But this is the episode comparing the Craigslist killer and someone being called the Tagged killer. Tagged is an app I've never heard of.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And also we covered the Craigslist killer. Yeah, we did that.

[Julie Benavali]

Such an idiot. Like, this was like maybe the dumbest murderer we've ever covered.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. So Tiffany Taylor is here. She is a survivor. She was abducted by this person and she is here to tell her story and explain how this. So much of this could have been avoided.

[Julie Benavali]

Yeah. People just listened to her, believed her, and taken her seriously.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julie Benavali]

We're in Philadelphia. We're learning about the murder of Robin West. Now this, the murder of Robin west happens before Tiffany Taylor becomes involved in this case. But we meet Robin's dad, Leroy. He was a police officer and a pastor. Robin was his youngest. We now are watching Leroy and Robin Roberts watching a video of Robin singing. And they are sobbing. And I am sobbing.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. She was a singer. And, like, we hear her voice. And I was saying to you before that Robin Roberts, our victim, is Robin.

[Julie Benavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And Robin Roberts is our host. And this is her show. Like, she's producing it.

[Julie Benavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

She really is so kind and warm and she. You can really tell that she takes so much care. But these people trust her. They want to tell her their story. And that is rare and can be hard to do. And it just shows how much Robin gives a shit and how much work goes into this. Because it's not easy.

[Julie Benavali]

No. And you can tell how much, like, this is Robin Roberts, baby. Because we were saying this off mic. They leave in a lot of things that other documentaries don't, if the conversations even happen at all. We've talked about this on other episodes. We really need to move forward in this movement to have, like, mental health professionals on set during interviews like this. Like, I think it is really necessary and. And would be really valuable. But they leave in things like Robin talking about the reason why they're doing the interview, what we're meant to get from the interview, why the interview is important, why the dad retraumatizing himself by talking about his daughter's brutal murder is valuable and important and what he's giving to the world by doing that. And I love that it all gets, like, left in.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. It should be normal. It shouldn't be so surprising and refreshing to see, for lack of a better term, this is how you should be handling these kinds of things.

[Julie Benavali]

We then meet Azrian. Who? Or Adrian. It's either Adrian or Azrian, but he's Robin's brother.

[Leroy (Robin's father)]

And he's just like, Robin is my father's favorite. It was as if she was another half of him. I think the pain of losing Robin truly weighed him down. She was just full of life.

[Patrick Hines]

She was awesome. She was full of life. She just always, like, brought a smile to your face. Everyone loved her voice. And Robyn was so young. When she's 15 years old, her family starts to notice changes in her because.

[Julie Benavali]

Her parents have separated. And, like, the dad is saying that, like, that's really hard on any kid. And for Robyn, it manifested in, like, not going to school, not going to class. She's suddenly arguing with people. She's just different.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And she was like, of course, like, this sucked. She was acting out. And also her father was a cop and a pastor. Super strict household.

[Julie Benavali]

The brother Adrian is like, he was very, very. And I get it. It is not. That's not my parenting style. I am not like a loosey goosey parent by any means. But, like, overly strictness is we. Daisy and I have been talking so much about sneaking out because she heard me and Steve talking about it after the Emily Longley episode. So every night Daisy's like, so, Daddy, when I'm older, what's going to happen if I sneak out? I'm like, well, you're not going to sneak out. And then we have to have, like a conversation about last night. I told her about the time when I was 14 and I snuck out with my sister.

[Patrick Hines]

Really? Where'd she go?

[Julie Benavali]

No. That was Daisy's first question. We went nowhere. We walked around the neighborhood. We were bored. After 45min, we, like, came home and went back to bed and knocked on the door. No. But we told our mom the next day, she's like, that was dumb, Daisy. Daddy, there could have been a killer out there. And I was like, tell me you're the kid of a true crime podcast.

[Patrick Hines]

Or without telling me you're the kid of 2025.

[Julie Benavali]

I know, Daddy. There could have been a killer out there.

[Patrick Hines]

She's right.

[Julie Benavali]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

So, yeah, I mean, obviously. And she's, you know, going through it with her parents. Separation, like, acting out. Of course she was, you know.

[Julie Benavali]

Yeah. And so, like, her birthday was coming up. Robyn was super excited about it. She's posting about it all over social media.

[Patrick Hines]

And it's her 20th birthday, so she's not 15 anymore, still incredibly young, but she. Yeah.

[Julie Benavali]

And she makes plans to, like, meet up with friends in New York. Like, that's the plan for the birthday weekend.

[Patrick Hines]

And so she goes to New York City from Philly and to go party with her friend and she never comes home. And this is, you know, her family doesn't hear from her. She's not responding to calls and texts. Very, very unlike her. Especially I'm sure, you know, when your father's a pastor and a cop, you have those check ins. You have to call and check in maybe more than a 20 year old woman.

[Julie Benavali]

Yeah, I was going to say like remind her that she is 20. So it does take the family a couple days to realize that she's not around. But brother Adri is like, I scoured her Facebook.

[Leroy (Robin's father)]

I was contacting every single person who left a like on her most recent post, I heard nothing.

[Julie Benavali]

And he says he gets nothing back from anybody.

[Patrick Hines]

Nothing. And so Leroy, Robin's father and again a cop calls police and he says, I think this is so important. He says, well, there was only one officer who even responded to me.

[Julie Benavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Emphasizes me.

[Julie Benavali]

I will say Leroy does not mince words when it comes to how the police handled this case.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, it's like wall of blue. But maybe not if black or maybe if your daughter, you know, like. Yeah.

[Julie Benavali]

Once it becomes like your kid, it becomes very personal. And you would think, I mean, my God. That we are again dealing with the fact that she was not at home. She was in a jurisdiction in another state. They say she was going to New York, but she actually went to New Jersey. This all happens in New Jersey.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, we get a lot of selective like, you know, protect your own if you're a cop. They pick and choose when they want to do.

[Julie Benavali]

It is kind of wild to think that there were like, like the cops in New Jersey not calling back this Philly cop to help like figure out what's going on with his daughter. That seem really crazy to me.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Like no investigators or detectives reached out. Like no information is given to the family.

[Julie Benavali]

And we will learn more about why in a minute.

[Tiffany Taylor]

Travel down the road.

[Julie Benavali]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julie Benavali]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julie Benavali]

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[Julie Benavali]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julie Benavali]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julie Benavali]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julie Benavali]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julie Benavali]

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[Patrick Hines]

There you go. That means it's fancy. So Robin's friend, who she went. I mean, maybe she went to New York City and they ended up in Jersey. I don't know. Jersey City is like, it's two minutes.

[Julie Benavali]

We don't know. But, like, all of the counties that this takes place is. Is in New Jersey. It's not really clear, but that's kind of where this happen.

[Patrick Hines]

So the friend she went to meet called police as well and says Robin got into a car and she never came back. And thank you, awesome friend, because the friend took a picture of the license plate and gave it to the cops.

[Julie Benavali]

Now, just stop on this to say for a minute. They immediately identify the last person Robin was with. Like, she gets in this guy's car. The friend takes a picture of the license plate. It gets to the cops. The cops interview this guy briefly. He says that he had nothing to do with her disappearance and they just let him go.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. So I'm like, really? Like, she was last seen driving off with this guy. We're just going to take him at his word. I'm not saying go straight to corruption.

[Julie Benavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

But, like, maybe let's keep this guy on our list. And then I'm like, oh, silly. Me, there isn't even a list. So, yeah.

[Julie Benavali]

So I think the reason, and this is not an excuse, I do not believe in this excuse at all. But we meet Officer Paul and he's.

[Officer Paul]

Saying, the police report said that Robin got into a car on Nye Avenue in Irvington, which is also known as a area where people can walk the streets.

[Julie Benavali]

There's the assumption that the young ladies were involved in sex work. Immediately Robyn is considered a sex worker. And they think it's a high risk lifestyle and the cops are just not that interested in investigating this case.

[Patrick Hines]

And so they're wondering if maybe that's why her friend was so fast to snap a photo. Like maybe they were working together and looking out for each other. And so this friend knows, always take pictures of the license plate in case something bad happens.

[Julie Benavali]

And my God, like, that is really, really smart. You're getting in a car with a stranger. You know what I mean? And we do learn. Reporter Anthony tells us that this is something that people who do sex work in this area will do to sort of watch out for each other. And it's very smart.

[Patrick Hines]

And so, like, Robyn's family is trying to get her story on the news and it's not working because of this whole bullshit, like, she put herself in that situation nonsense that we don't subscribe to. But, like, the minute people hear sex work or bad neighborhood or anything unsafe, they just make these assump that end up really devaluing the person. Because Leroy, her own father, is like, yeah, she's still a human being with people who love her.

[Julie Benavali]

And like, I want to point out too, that, like, this guy goes on to become a serial killer.

[Patrick Hines]

And the point is that Robyn is black because over in Boston, the Craigslist killer is all over the news even though he too is targeting sex workers.

[Julie Benavali]

Yeah. And it's handled very differently. We meet Nicole, who's a news anchor up in Boston, and she says that, like, the similarities between the two cases are kind of staggering. Like, both are targeting sex workers. We just have to say it. Because the Craigslist killer was happening in an affluent area and the sex workers he was targeting were white and the killer himself was white. This gets much more widespread attention. So we can't even just say, oh, the media is not going to cover stories of sex workers. No, the media is not going to cover stories of black sex workers.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. And Leah Webb is here. She's a New York State Senator, 52nd Senate District.

[Julie Benavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

She says, of course, like, stories and cases about black women and girls are underreported to a staggering degree.

[Julie Benavali]

Yes.

[Tiffany Taylor]

She adds, there's stigma. Black women have always been hypersexualized. So when we're talking about black female sex workers, it actually becomes even more negative.

[Patrick Hines]

And in Boston, like, the media attention helped women. It saved lives. It alerted women.

[Julie Benavali]

But it was also part of the story because, you know, our reporter friend is telling us that, like, the story. And I was in Boston when this happened, so I remember this. The story in Boston at the time was, women in Boston are under attack, and who's going to be next? You know, it's all spit. I mean, it's valuable. I'm glad that they're, like, they're looking for this guy and they're trying to protect the women of Boston. But, like, all. All people need to be protected.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And, like, because this case wasn't covered, women weren't aware and more people died because of it.

[Julie Benavali]

Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

That's just a fact.

[Julie Benavali]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

So September 13, 2016, Robyn is missing for two weeks.

[Julie Benavali]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And this is when Robyn's body is found.

[Julie Benavali]

Yeah. And, like, her dad, Leroy, tells this just horrifying story because, like, as a parent, I think his. His point here is, like, you can't imagine that your child is actually dead. And so, you know, his ex calls him and says, they found Robin. And he tells this horrible story of, like, great, let's gas up the car and go get her. But no, they found her body. The dad literally collapses on the floor.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And Leroy, her dad says that Robin was this guy's first victim. And by the way, he was the person the cops spoke to. They had his license plate, they went to his home, they spoke to him, and they did nothing. And so, like, when people try to, quote, do everything right, they look out for each other, they take the photo, they call the police. The people who are supposed to be there to help you don't do shit. So what are we supposed to do?

[Julie Benavali]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, Robyn's friend did everything she was, quote, supposed to do.

[Julie Benavali]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And now look what happened. Absolutely nothing.

[Julie Benavali]

And we're about to meet Tiffany Taylor, and it gets so much worse here because she's got the name and they don't care.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. So November 15, 2016. It's two months after Robyn's murder. Yes, Tiffany Taylor is here. She is a survivor. She is here to say in no uncertain terms, she tried her damnedest to tell the police her story. They did not listen to her.

[Julie Benavali]

And what I love is just another amazing thing about this series. Robin. Robin says to Tiffany, as She's beginning the interview. And I think it is so important to show the care that Robin Roberts takes before launching into getting Tiffany to tell her story again. Because we're gonna learn this horrendous attack that Tiffany suffers. The police are gonna tell her that they lose her police report. They make her do it twice. She's gotta tell this story twice to the cops. She's doing it again here with Robin Roberts. And Robin Roberts says to her, it.

[Tiffany Taylor]

Can'T be easy to share a story that at one time nobody believed or wanted to hear. What's your feeling? I'm ready. I'm ready to talk about.

[Julie Benavali]

Can't be easy sharing a story that at one time nobody believed or wanted to hear.

[Patrick Hines]

You know, and then the aftermath of that.

[Julie Benavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Like. And what that means for someone like Tiffany, who's like, again, I tried to do everything right. And maybe if I, you know, the Tiffany's of the world will say, well, maybe if I did it better, maybe, you know, like, take on that guilt when it's not her fault and none of this is her fault.

[Julie Benavali]

And it's also just the acknowledgement from Robin Roberts. Like, I know that you're giving us your story, and we see you and we appreciate you and we're grateful, and it's just like, every interviewer needs to learn from this.

[Patrick Hines]

Absolutely. So Tiffany tells us about herself. She's from Jersey City. She says that she grew up in the projects, but her mom kept her very, very sheltered. She said, they were very protective of me.

[Leroy (Robin's father)]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And she had a rough go of it, Tiffany. Like, she fucking went through it.

[Julie Benavali]

Her mom gets sick with cancer. Tiffany didn't know if her mom was going to live or die. Tiffany says, we lost everything. We were homeless. It was rough.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julie Benavali]

And then she says, like, Tiffany, to learn how to take care of myself and my mom, too. Now, as a person who has done this, if you've ever had to care for a person who's suffering from cancer, that is brutal. And Tiffany was a kid and homeless. And I'm thinking where, like, is. Is she taking care of her mother in the. While also living navigating the shelter system or living in a car like, like, you know, those.

[Patrick Hines]

Those, you know, lowcost motels or whatever.

[Julie Benavali]

And Tiffany is just like, you know, you can see just by looking at her for two seconds, she's like the most selfless person in the world.

[Leroy (Robin's father)]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And she says, like, in order to figure this out, she said that she started running the streets just to get by.

[Julie Benavali]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

So in 2016. Tiffany gets pregnant, and she tells us.

[Tiffany Taylor]

I was so happy once I got pregnant. I just stopped everything. I just wanted my baby to have the life that I didn't have.

[Julie Benavali]

She just wants to give her kid the life that she didn't get to have.

[Patrick Hines]

And she's happy about this pregnancy, and she's focusing on herself and focusing on the baby. And so it's November 15, 2016, and she explains what happened. She says that she just goes. She goes to meet up with, quote, a guy.

[Julie Benavali]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And when Robin Roberts is like, what was this person like? And she goes, he was just a regular kid. Like, it was just a guy. Like, she said she was staying at the Ritz Motel at the time. She's five months pregnant. And Tiffany explains. She goes, look, this guy knew what she calls her situation. He knew she needed money.

[Julie Benavali]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And so they just, like, arrange a meet. And so the guy picks up Tiffany. But this is interesting. The guy picks up Tiffany, but then they switch seats, and Tiffany gets behind the wheel.

[Julie Benavali]

Yeah. And she's explaining that, like, she's driving and driving, driving. Doesn't really know where he wants her to go. But then he says he's got to go to the bathroom. Can we turn down a side street.

[Patrick Hines]

So he can pee?

[Julie Benavali]

So he can fucking pee. So as they pull down a side street, he then attacks her. And in Tiffany's own words, she describes, he rapes her, he duct tapes her. And Tiffany describes how people were, like, walking by and not noticing.

[Patrick Hines]

Not noticing. And he handcuffed her. Like, he just choking her.

[Julie Benavali]

She says, I was trying to scratch his face, and he grabbed my hands and very calmly says, no, no, I know what I'm doing. I've done this before.

[Patrick Hines]

What a piece of shit. So Tiffany is trying to get out of the situation alive, and she is just. I just can't imagine what it's like for your mind to be racing and that, to sort of, like, land on an idea and see if it works.

[Julie Benavali]

But she nails it.

[Patrick Hines]

What she does, and she says, oh, shit. She tells him, I said, you know.

[Tiffany Taylor]

I left my phone at the hotel with all our text messages and everything on it. That's when he got all frantic. You gotta get that phone. You gotta go back and get the phone.

[Julie Benavali]

She describes how he goes from being calm to being frantic, and they've gotta get the phone immediately. And Robin Roberts is saying to her, like, how were you managing to, like, stay so calm while you were doing this? And she says, I was not gonna let this guy kill me and my daughter she was so fucking determined.

[Patrick Hines]

And there's this really great exchange that really shows, like, the relationship that Robin has with the people that she's talking to and how comfortable they feel with her and how it feels like it's just old friends talking. Because Tiffany explains that she breaks out of one of the handcuffs and Robin goes. Goes without letting him know. And Tiffany goes without letting him know.

[Julie Benavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And it was just a really. There was like, a level of comfort there, just in that exchange where you just felt like, oh, they really, like, admire and trust each other.

[Julie Benavali]

Exactly. Exactly.

[Tiffany Taylor]

Travel down the road back again, fam.

[Julie Benavali]

By now, you've probably heard of Built, where you can earn points on your monthly rent payment. But did you know they make it possible for you to get more outside of your home, too?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. So by paying rents through Built, you earn flexible points that can be redeemed towards hundreds of hotels and airlines or a future rent payment or your next Lyft ride and more.

[Julie Benavali]

Yeah, but it doesn't stop there, fam. Build is about making your entire neighborhood more rewarding.

[Patrick Hines]

You can dine out at your favorite local restaurants and earn additional points. You can get VIP treatment at certain fitness studios, and you can enjoy exclusive experiences just for Build members every month. So just like you're paying rent every month, you're getting this every month.

[Julie Benavali]

Exactly. Build is turning a monthly expense into an opportunity to earn rewards and discover the best that your neighborhood has to offer. Offer. Your rent is finally working for you.

[Patrick Hines]

Finally.

[Julie Benavali]

Finally.

[Patrick Hines]

Used to be like, oh, I'll just throw this money away. No, I know. Now it's working for me.

[Julie Benavali]

Totally. So, fam, earn points on rent around your neighborhood and wherever you call home.

[Patrick Hines]

By going to join built.com TCO that's J-O-I-N-B-I-L-T.com TCO.

[Julie Benavali]

Make sure to use our URL. So they know GMP sent you.

[Patrick Hines]

Wow.

[Julie Benavali]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

Lots of letters today.

[Julie Benavali]

Thank you. And so we see the surveillance video, and this is important, we see the surveillance video of her in the parking lot with her attacker. She's running up the stairs. She says she darts into the room. And then, quote, I think I almost broke his hand with how hard I slammed the door on it. And I was like, yes, Tiffany, yes.

[Patrick Hines]

So she calls 911 again. She does the right thing, right? She gets away. She tells police. Right away she goes, somebody just kidnapped me. And this is where we hear it. I don't know if he's still outside. Holy fuck.

[Julie Benavali]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Have the body cam footage Okay.

[Julie Benavali]

I wonder if the cops forget that they're being recorded.

[Patrick Hines]

They absolutely have.

[Julie Benavali]

This is some of the most shocking police body cam footage I have ever seen.

[Patrick Hines]

And just in terms of the conversation, because they are instantly victim blaming her, because they're going to like the Ritz Motel, which is known for sex work. They're basically saying, like, the injuries aren't bad enough for them.

[Julie Benavali]

We see her say, look at the injuries on. Look at the bruises on my face.

[Patrick Hines]

And they're like, yeah, rough sex, right? He paid for it or whatever. Like, bullshit. But then, oh, my God, she's. When did he duct tape you?

[Officer Paul]

Huh?

[Julie Benavali]

In the car.

[Patrick Hines]

In the car.

[Julie Benavali]

So you let him duct tape you or what happened?

[Tiffany Taylor]

I just need to know when he said this. So you let him. They did not believe me at all.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, so you let him put duct tape on you?

[Julie Benavali]

It is the most unbelievable. Now we're gonna learn later. This guy has killed before. Tiffany, tried to kill Tiffany, and is going to kill again after Tiffany. And Tiffany says, I had all of the information. I had his Facebook, I had his name. I knew exactly where he lived. She says, they did not believe me at all. I just felt like they wanted to lock me up. Tiffany could have gotten a murderer off the streets in that moment, but the cops just didn't believe her.

[Patrick Hines]

And they didn't take her seriously. Or they thought like, well, like, you're a sex worker in their minds, whatever the shitty translation is of calling her names or whatever. Like, this is part of the gig, girl. Like, too bad. Yes, they were bothered by it. And the term let him put duct tape on you is unbelievable.

[Julie Benavali]

And he says it as though he's repeating back what she said, right?

[Patrick Hines]

And she's like, I didn't say that.

[Julie Benavali]

She duct taped me is what I. So you let him put duct tape on you?

[Patrick Hines]

No.

[Julie Benavali]

What?

[Patrick Hines]

Literally not what she said. So the next day, again, doing everything. Yeah, right. On paper. Everything we're told to do, Right? Like, Tiffany's mom picks her up, she gets the sexual assault evidence kit done, and she says she was so scared.

[Julie Benavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And this is when the cops tell her that her statement got lost and she has to do it all again.

[Julie Benavali]

Now, for people who don't know what that means, she has to sit down and tell a probably male cop everything that this man did to her. And she's already had to do that once. We know how traumatizing it is for them to have to relive the trauma like that for her to then have to do it a second time. We sort of scoot right past this. Like, that is absolutely traumatizing. To have to do that twice. Yeah, to have to do that once.

[Patrick Hines]

And I really don't get the sense that they, I don't know, like, apologized or understood the weight of what it meant that they. 1. To hear that the story that she told the first time got lost is such a fucking punch in the gut. Like, what it signifies to Tiffany after feeling like they wanted to lock her up.

[Julie Benavali]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

So then it's like, oh, you didn't give a shit enough to, like, put it in the proper file.

[Julie Benavali]

Okay, cool.

[Patrick Hines]

So now I have to do it again, and you're so annoyed by me. And she's like, once again. Full name, his address, Facebook page, his phone number.

[Julie Benavali]

Yes. She got all of the information. And I just want to say one more time, the way that Tiffany said, says, they told me it got lost. Like, that either means that they just threw it away, or it was like they didn't care enough. Like, this is a woman who's been raped, and they didn't take enough care in the way that they took her report to, like, file her report appropriately. How hard is that?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, it's not hard.

[Julie Benavali]

No.

[Patrick Hines]

And so the producer plays the body cam footage for one of the cops, and I'm like, holy shit. Like, this is what I'm talking about. People behind the camera need to do more of this.

[Julie Benavali]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And this is Paul. Right. And the producer's like, there's a consent implied there.

[Narrator/Commentator]

Where is that coming from?

[Julie Benavali]

I.

[Officer Paul]

You would have to ask that officer why he would phrase the question that way. I really can't answer that.

[Patrick Hines]

Now, Paul, the cop says, I don't know. You'd have to ask that officer. Now, he's not 100% wrong to say he was not there. He didn't say it. The production. I understand what they're doing. I appreciate it. We need more of this. But the production wants him to say on the record that that cop was wrong to do that, and Paul's just never going to do that.

[Julie Benavali]

My thing about that, though, is that, like, so we called the police and asked to interview y', all, and you're who they sent, so have a fucking answer.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Julie Benavali]

Sorry.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, but, like, he's never gonna do that.

[Julie Benavali]

Of course not. But, like. But. But the. Like, he. He's been sent there because he wasn't the cop who did that.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. You know, and, like, yeah, like, keep pressing them. Yeah, but I was just gonna say. And he eventually says, like, he was ready to kill her if he put duct tape across her mouth, like, he was absolutely gonna kill her. But Tiffany thought quickly and got herself out of there as to say, like, I won't get. I won't tell on you. Like, I'll delete that text message. Like, come on. But say he was ready to kill her.

[Julie Benavali]

And. But also, Paul, there is another thing you can say, which is to say that's not the appropriate way to handle that. You know what I mean? But there's like, you always say, like, there's such the blue wall, like, he's never going to say anything bad about that cop that he's probably going to have to see at the fucking golf course.

[Patrick Hines]

And it's really selective blue wall bullshit because Robin, our other victim, like, her dad was a cop and they didn't give him any information or help him at all. So, like, it's very. They get to. They pick and choose when they're going to be the fucking blue wall of whatever.

[Julie Benavali]

And then Paul is also here to.

[Officer Paul]

Say that in New Jersey, the wealthy in the Are next door neighbors. We try to give every victim the same type of attention, but our resources, whether it's personnel or equipment or vehicles, they're always stretched.

[Julie Benavali]

We're really short on personnel and equipment and vehicles. And I'm like, are we really talking about police cars right now?

[Patrick Hines]

Did you have a hard day at work today?

[Julie Benavali]

This woman had to report her rape twice. And we're talking about the number of cop cars you have, the job you.

[Patrick Hines]

Signed up for, like, the oath you took. You're going to be, like, complaining about it now in the face of just. Just the fact that, like, her race, her socioeconomic status, like all of that is. It's just a fact. Like, there's no opinion here. And no amount of bullshitting from the cops is going to change what the facts are. Yeah, like, no hemming and hawing. Like, that's what the fact is.

[Julie Benavali]

And now we're going to see, like, how similar the cases of the Craigslist killer and the tagged killer are, but how different the coverage actually was. So we learned about Trisha Leffler, and she was the first victim of the Craigslist killer. And once again, we learned that this all went down at the Western Hotel, Copley Square, which is in the rich part of Boston. It's in Back Bay. And we see video of Trisha. And I'm glad that this was her experience. I am not denying Trisha this at all. But she's on the news talking about how respectful and kind the cops were to her.

[Patrick Hines]

They were very respectful towards me. They didn't say, you know, you're not supposed to be doing this, you know, anything like that.

[Narrator/Commentator]

Tiffany Taylor and Tricia Lefler, their stories are similar. They're tied up attack act with Trisha Lefler. They took her seriously.

[Julie Benavali]

I think this is the best example of what this show is trying to do to show how similar the cases were and how different because it was both. You know, both cases involved a sex worker who escaped. And in Trisha Lefler's case, she gets, like, put on the news and, you know, and. And good for her. I'm glad that she was. But in Tiffany's case, like, she is ignored and victim blamed, and they lose her police report about her rape.

[Patrick Hines]

And Tiffany knows her attacker. She has his name, his address, his phone number. He's on the surveillance, came cameras. And yet crickets.

[Julie Benavali]

Yes, which, by the way, is the exact same thing with the. Trisha doesn't know the name of the killer, but it's the same thing arranged through the Internet. I love that they spend time to talk about how dumb these men are. They just let themselves be caught on surveillance camera everywhere. But these cases are identical except for the socioeconomic status of the victim.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And so when Robin's father, our victim, Robin's father, Leroy, said earlier that his daughter was this guy's first victim. He means his first murder victim, I think, because Tiffany survived this piece of shit. Only, no, nobody knew about it.

[Julie Benavali]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

So. November 23, 2016. It's eight days after Tiffany's harrowing ordeal. We learn about the story of Sarah Butler. She is a college student. She is a black woman. She is reported missing. And she had been missing for a few days by the time she was reported to the police.

[Julie Benavali]

And like, just some important details, like it happened over Thanksgiving weekend. She'd asked to borrow her mother's van. She took off early in the evening, never comes back. So Sarah, we learned, had been communicating with people on this tagged app, which is where a lot of the women in the New Jersey cases are. And it's. We learned this is an app for hookups, but it also can be an app for sex work.

[Officer Paul]

You can have fake identities and exchange money for sex, so no one really knows who you are.

[Julie Benavali]

A lot of times women who find themselves on websites like Tagged or back then Craigslist don't present as your typical kind of sex worker.

[Narrator/Commentator]

It was younger women, maybe women who haven't told friends and family they're on this site. So Nobody knows to look for them, and nobody knows if they're safe.

[Julie Benavali]

When women go missing, no one knows to look for them there.

[Patrick Hines]

And it's just scary because, like, you know, you. They say you could have fake identities and exchange money and no one knows who you are, and it's sort of untraceable. And I know people have to do what they have to do, but it just seems so scary.

[Julie Benavali]

And it. All of this could be solved if sex work was legal and regulated.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, come on.

[Julie Benavali]

You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

We gotta help out these women. The stigma is. It's so ridiculous. Like, why. Like, is it worth it, really? Can we just have the conversation that people don't want to have for what I know.

[Julie Benavali]

And I'm. I'm not correcting you at all because I know what you mean. But it's like, not just women and like, this know. It's.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Just. It's ridiculous.

[Julie Benavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So three days after Sarah goes missing, her mom's van is found along with Sarah's red weave. And we're told that, like, that was kind of her signature.

[Julie Benavali]

It's also important to point out that, like, Sarah's friends are going to get really involved here. And the. The weave was found next to the van and was only identified as Sarah's weave because the best friend was like, Sarah wore a. A red. You know what I mean? Like, the. The friends got really involved and gave the information that the cops wouldn't have had had. And one of our talking heads said that if the friend hadn't told the cops that they would have missed it completely.

[Tiffany Taylor]

Yeah.

[Julie Benavali]

And the weave is what is connecting Sarah to the van.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly.

[Tiffany Taylor]

Travel down the road. Back again, girl.

[Julie Benavali]

Zip recruiter is back. Look, fam, the holidays are upon us, and businesses are hiring for seasonal roles. Everything from haunted corn maze workers to lead elves and real bearded Santas to snowplow drivers.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. So here's what this means. Just to, like, really break it down, please. Employers need people with very specific skills.

[Julie Benavali]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Like certain experience level or like a special license even.

[Julie Benavali]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

You never know if you're driving a snowplow. Just like, you can't do that without a license.

[Leroy (Robin's father)]

No.

[Julie Benavali]

So whether you're hiring for one of those roles or any other role, the best way as we know to find the perfect match for your role is on ZipRecruiter. I use it all the time.

[Patrick Hines]

And right now you can try it for [e-mail] TCO fam, listen to this.

[Julie Benavali]

ZipRecruiter's matching technology works fast to find the top talent so you don't have to waste time on more money. That's the hardest part.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, you might be like, oh my God, is it October already? Yes, it is. So you might have to find out like right away how many job seekers are in your area that are qualified and have that special license or whatever.

[Julie Benavali]

For your role and they do the work for you. Fam. With ZipRecruiter's advanced resume database, you can instantly unlock top candidates contact info.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. So it's pretty obvious. It's no wonder why ZipRecruiter is the number one rated hiring site based on G2.

[Julie Benavali]

I mean, absolutely, obviously, fam. Let Zip Recruiter find the right people for your roles, seasonal or otherwise.

[Patrick Hines]

Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day.

[Julie Benavali]

And right now you can try ZipRecruiter for free at ZipRecruiter.com TCO Again, that's.

[Patrick Hines]

ZipRecruiter.com Tco ZipRecruiter the smartest way to.

[Julie Benavali]

Hire Girl Kettle and Fire is back. We love the stuff in our house. Kettle and fire bone broth is rich, savory, slow, simmered and it tastes as good as it is for you.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. So if you have it on the reg.

[Julie Benavali]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Just said that it supports your gut health and digestion. It supports muscle recovery and energy and immune function. So like you're getting all of this without changing your whole routine because all you got to do is heat this up and sip it.

[Julie Benavali]

Let me tell you that Steve started taking it when he was really sick and he's like, kept having it as a, as a snack because it helps with bloating, it helps with craving, and it helps boost low energy moments. Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And also it's like an instant upgrade to your meals cuz it's broth, right? So you can add it to like rice, soups, sauces. You get richer flavor and extra protein. My dad loves like a simmery sauce. So the last time I was home I was like, here have. He is thrilled. And he said it like really upgrades all that. He's like, he loves being in the kitchen, but it's really upgrading all of his sauces.

[Julie Benavali]

And let me tell you, we're adding as much protein as we can possibly get to things these days. With up to 19 grams of protein per serving, it definitely keeps you full between meals and can help curb cravings.

[Patrick Hines]

It's, it's like such an easy way to Upgrade your routine.

[Julie Benavali]

I mean, you have it right there in your pantry. Like your hungry, you grab it for a snack or you add it to your cooking.

[Patrick Hines]

Come on, come on, come on.

[Julie Benavali]

So, fam. For a limited time, you can get a free carton of Kettle and Fire bone broth by going to kettle and fire.com TCO.

[Patrick Hines]

Just buy any 3 cartons in store and they'll pay you back for one. This works on any flavor at any retailer.

[Julie Benavali]

You can find Kettle and fire in over 22,000 plus stores nationwide, including Costco, Walmart, Target, Publix, Whole Foods, Kroger and Sprouts.

[Patrick Hines]

That's K E T T L E&Fire.com TCO it's delicious. It's delicious. Upgrade that soup. Honestly, we're not doing like subpar soups anymore.

[Julie Benavali]

No, come on.

[Patrick Hines]

So Sarah's BFF is very important to this investigation. And she was able to get onto Sarah's computer.

[Julie Benavali]

She goes to hack him.

[Patrick Hines]

And I love this. And so she goes on the computer to get information about like, who Sarah was talking to and what she was doing and where she was meeting. And she finds that Sarah was talking to this guy who. His name is Lil Yockrock. Yeah, so whatever. So, but we see the screenshot and it's just like they are just getting right to it. He says, do you want to make money? Sex for money? And Sarah goes, how much money? Question mark. Then she says, 500. And then she says the thing that is just like, oh my God. But it's what so many people I'm sure say. She goes, you're not a serial killer.

[Julie Benavali]

Right, I know.

[Patrick Hines]

Lmao. And he just says, no. No punctuation, no nothing. And to see that in writing is like, oh my God. But like, I'm sure. How many people make jokes like that?

[Julie Benavali]

How many people make the joke thinking, if I make the joke, then this plane gonna crash. You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, tell me about it.

[Julie Benavali]

I know, but that's what I'm saying. Like that. That's a thing that you say when it's like, if I say it then it can't. Then it won't be true.

[Patrick Hines]

But Sarah's saying it. And then she goes, him. So she says it. He says no. And she gets nervous or whatever and she bails.

[Julie Benavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And he follows up with her and he's like, like, hey, are we doing this? And of course, because she's a woman, we would all do it. She apologizes and she goes, sorry, I got really nervous. And it's like this is an app. It's just so indicative of, like, who she is and just like, how women have to navigate the world because they. The whole. We're told that the app is built so that you don't know these people from a hole in the wall.

[Julie Benavali]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

She doesn't owe him an apology. She doesn't owe him a response. She doesn't owe him anything.

[Julie Benavali]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

But because of how we are navigating in the world and black women in particular and sex work, like, end, end, end. She's like, sorry, I got nervous. She feels like she has to apologize to this piece of shit.

[Julie Benavali]

And then she, like, agrees to the meat. She agrees to do it.

[Patrick Hines]

So Sarah's bff, oh, my God.

[Julie Benavali]

If you don't say, let the women do the work.

[Patrick Hines]

Teams up with Sarah's sister. Sarah's sister and friends took matters into their own hands. They could tell the kind of women that he was interested in.

[Tiffany Taylor]

So they created this fake profile.

[Patrick Hines]

It was a catfishing scheme that they knew would attract him. And it did. It works.

[Julie Benavali]

It 100% works.

[Patrick Hines]

They meet up at Panera.

[Julie Benavali]

Oh, my God. Of course.

[Patrick Hines]

They head to Panera, starving, hopefully. Got the green tea, of course. Which is my favorite. The like, what is it? The papaya.

[Julie Benavali]

Yeah, yeah. Y.

[Patrick Hines]

Get it with no ice.

[Julie Benavali]

Yeah. I do love too that the police are like, thank you for setting this up. We will take it from here.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, please.

[Julie Benavali]

But also, I feel like, let's keep the girls. Let's keep the ladies safe. Like, I think that's the right thing to do.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, yeah. So the sister and the BFF tell the cops about everything and, like about the meetup. And this is what we said, and this is what he's going to be wearing, blah, blah, blah. And the piece of shit is picked up and he gives them his real name, which is Khalil Wheeler Weaver.

[Julie Benavali]

And they say he's super cooperative. Presents himself like a hard working, nice young man. He's a security guard at a supermarket.

[Patrick Hines]

His family is a law enforcement.

[Julie Benavali]

Yeah, but I mean, his family is law enforcement and that is big because of what happens next. The police question him for like a little bit. He gives the timeline of his night with Sarah. He's like, we hung out, she dropped me off. I went to hang out with one of my buddies they call the buddy. The buddy's like, yeah, he was with me all night. They let this fucking guy go.

[Patrick Hines]

And so the cops, quote, don't see him as a threat. Right. But because Tiffany wasn't taken seriously, they don't know about her case. So they can't see any similarities, if any. And so they just drop it.

[Julie Benavali]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

And the family being in law enforcement cannot be ignored because this is once again selective.

[Julie Benavali]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Today, in this moment, they're gonna use it to not pursue this kid. And can I just say for the second time.

[Julie Benavali]

Yeah. Like once again, Tiffany had this guy's name. Yeah. And he used his real name with the cop. Now in the case of Sarah and.

[Patrick Hines]

So did Robin's friend.

[Julie Benavali]

Yes. So if the cops had looked to these black women at any point and actually believed them and taken some kind of fucking record of this guy's name, these women wouldn't be dead.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, yeah. They had many opportunities to do the right thing and they just kept not doing. And like in this instance, we're see how clear it is that they didn't do the same right thing.

[Julie Benavali]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

You know what I mean? Like they didn't pursue this guy. They knocked on this guy's door twice, only they didn't know it was twice. Because nobody's talking, because nobody's taking these.

[Julie Benavali]

People seriously and nobody's putting his name in the system. Nobody's making a report about this guy.

[Patrick Hines]

You know, it makes you want to jump out a window.

[Julie Benavali]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Doesn't it? Don't you feel like exasperated just saying it?

[Julie Benavali]

I mean, you know, like I know that you live in this world every day. I've got an 11 year old daughter. This is about to be the world that she's inheriting. You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

She's living it.

[Julie Benavali]

I know. I mean it's really crazy.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And now like the black women of it all, you know, the sex, you know, it's just like it never, it never ends. And, and, and, and, and, and, and so both killers here, Boston and New Jersey or whatever, I think people have.

[Narrator/Commentator]

Built in their mind the image of a killer and it's not the tagged killer and the Craigslist killer. You have young attractive predators preying on their victims. What makes made the Craigslist Killer case so interesting was he was an all American guy, a guy that you would be friends with on social media.

[Patrick Hines]

They're hiding in plain sight, but they're both using the Internet to do this.

[Julie Benavali]

And we were talking about this off mic a little bit. I actually appreciated that they pointed out that the killer in New Jersey is attractive. And the reason I think that that's important is because the Craigslist killer was hot. Like that was the whole thing. And it's just another way in which these cases are the same. A hot guy attracts a sex worker who escapes, who has the details and the story to tell, and the. And the Craigslist Killer becomes famous, and no one's ever heard of this guy.

[Patrick Hines]

You know, I. I know that this took place in 2016, and I think that was probably about maybe the. The. The end of, like, well, he didn't look like a killer. We. When did it become. When did we start doing this? 2018.

[Julie Benavali]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

You know what I mean?

[Julie Benavali]

2017.

[Patrick Hines]

You know, it's like. Well, yeah, it doesn't. It kind of doesn't. That's kind of the point. It can be anyone.

[Julie Benavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So we got to stop with this whole, like, y. I hope that this is sort of the tail end of that, but he was bookish. What the fudge does that mean?

[Julie Benavali]

And that's the whole thing is that, like, this is all wrapped up in, like, selling newspapers and magazines and even getting people to watch episodes of this show. You know what I mean? It's like, it all. Yeah, it all sucks.

[Patrick Hines]

So it's December 1, 2016. Sarah Butler has been missing for nine days. And the whole investigation is online, basically, like texts, apps, whatever. And they are able to find Sarah's body because of her cell phone. So they're using, like, the towers and all of that information, and they're making.

[Julie Benavali]

It sound like the killer didn't know that this is how cell phones worked.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, because they're led to Eagle Rock reservation, which we're told is like, a lot of forest area, super hidden. Has a history of bad things happening. So they say. I'm sure it's also lovely.

[Julie Benavali]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Don't come for me, I'm sure. But, like, it's just one of those places where it can be, you know, off the beaten path or whatever.

[Julie Benavali]

So.

[Patrick Hines]

So Sarah's body was hidden under a bunch of leaves, and the van was found in Orange, New Jersey. And so the cops are using surveillance footage to track the movements of the van to see, like, how did we get from. How is the van here and how is Sarah here? How do we merge the two together?

[Julie Benavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So the van is seen in the parking lot of 7 11. And they see Sarah in the van, like, in the footage in the passenger.

[Julie Benavali]

Seat of the van that she was driving.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And so the kids killer. It's weird how he's. I mean, I guess it's a power thing, but, like, he had Tiffany switch seats, so, like, he picked up Tiffany, but then Tiffany drove.

[Julie Benavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And now in this, you know, it's weird. So the killer goes into 7 11. He's wearing all black, wearing black gloves. And this is where we're told in surveillance photos the man is fixated on his BlackBerry. The device made it easy to find him.

[Narrator/Commentator]

The Craigslist killer and the tagged killer were preying on their victims because they of the Internet and the Internet was the smoking gun.

[Patrick Hines]

They just like forgot about the surveillance in 2016.

[Julie Benavali]

And this isn't like 2001, this is 2016.

[Patrick Hines]

But it's weird because they're both attached to their phones.

[Julie Benavali]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

And pretty well versed in technology that like they're able to, you know, they use these apps or whatever, but they just sort of like they were. It just proves that they were totally distracted by their need to do these horrible things that they're not clocking the surveillance camera at a 7:11.

[Julie Benavali]

And also they're not trying to not get caught. That's the other thing. It's like this guy, the killer in the New Jersey cases has already been caught and let go twice.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, and then it's like, well now he's more emboldened.

[Julie Benavali]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

And they're both targeting people that quote, maybe you know, people wouldn't care about, but not necessarily in Boston because they're like high class escorts at fancy hotels and get to be on the 6 o' clock news being like, oh, how did she get into this? Something horrible must have happened to her. But meanwhile, Tiffany made her fucking choices. She let him duct tape her. Like, what are you saying to me?

[Julie Benavali]

Exactly?

[Patrick Hines]

It's if you to take certain, you know, race or neighborhood out of it. It's the same thing.

[Julie Benavali]

You could like do the check mark like arranged on the Internet, you know, involved a sex worker. A sex worker who got away, you.

[Patrick Hines]

Know, met at a hotel. If you, if it's not, don't use a descriptive word if it's just a hotel.

[Julie Benavali]

Exactly. Thing like both of the killers caught on surveillance video, like that's the Internet is their downfall. They weren't paying attention to, you know, how the Internet works and what they can like, it's exactly the same.

[Patrick Hines]

So they finally, they like find this guy.

[Julie Benavali]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And they charged this murderer with Sarah' murder and then they're able to quote, link him to other crimes. I'm like, oh, are they, are they now finally able to do that when you let him go twice before based on two separate people telling you exactly who he is? Robin's friend and Tiffany, they had his.

[Julie Benavali]

Name, they had the license plate, they.

[Patrick Hines]

Went to his house.

[Julie Benavali]

I mean it's unbelievable.

[Patrick Hines]

They knocked on his door twice and asked him what was going on. But because we have the jurisdiction bullshit or whatever, they didn't know they went to him twice.

[Julie Benavali]

Exactly. Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

So I'm like, oh, are you? Are you really now? You're going to take credit for it now?

[Julie Benavali]

Also Tiffany's here to say, like, I think there's a lot more victims of this guy. She said, I don't believe I'm the only survivor.

[Patrick Hines]

I agree.

[Julie Benavali]

Absolutely.

[Patrick Hines]

And, well, I mean, even at the end of this, I still agree.

[Julie Benavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

You know, like, we'll get more information, but I still agree with Tiffany.

[Tiffany Taylor]

Yeah. Travel down, girl.

[Julie Benavali]

Our place is back. Did you know that most nonstick cookware, unlike our place, but most of the others, still contain harmful chemicals like teflon and other PFAs, which can leach into food, they, the environment and the home. Get that stuff out of your kitchen.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. I don't understand how like most nonstick cookware still contains these harmful toxins. It makes no sense to me. But there's this brand new study that was published in the Science of the Total Environment.

[Julie Benavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And it found that a single scratch on a nonstick coated pan can release approximately 9,100 plastic particles. I'm not doing that.

[Julie Benavali]

No. And that's where our place comes in and why switching to a toxin free cookware is the only decision if you care about you and your loved ones health.

[Tiffany Taylor]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So it's like, oh, what's in my pan? Just the thing I'm cooking. Not this like random toxin or 9100.

[Julie Benavali]

But it's still super nonstick and it works just as well or better.

[Patrick Hines]

And look, I want to tell you about the set. I love the set so much. Buying the set saves you money. You can save 150 bucks on the cookware set with the bundle and save option. I'm just saying that's what I did.

[Julie Benavali]

And it's a look upgrade in addition to like getting the toxins out of your house.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julie Benavali]

So, fam, stop cooking with toxic cookwares and upgrade to our place today.

[Patrick Hines]

Visit fromourplace.com TCO and use code TCO for 10 off sitewide with 100 day.

[Julie Benavali]

Risk free trial free shipping and returns. You can experience this game changing cookware with zero risk. Fam.

[Patrick Hines]

Are you kidding? And it makes me feel fancy. I'm just saying it because, you know, it's good quality and it's healthy and.

[Julie Benavali]

Safe and it looks nice in your.

[Patrick Hines]

Whatever. I'm professional.

[Julie Benavali]

I. Me too.

[Patrick Hines]

So we learned that Robin west was murdered she was. I can't believe her father is here.

[Julie Benavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

When we. Because he tells us what happened.

[Julie Benavali]

This is like the family from the very beginning.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Leroy (Robin's father)]

I was filled with rage in seeing him and knowing what he has done. Khalil Wheeler Weaver killed Robin, put her body in a abandoned house and set her on fire.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm furious. Like, this whole thing fills me with rage.

[Julie Benavali]

And he's sobbing. Like, he's sobbing. I'm sobbing. It's just absolutely horrible.

[Patrick Hines]

And he says he's going to try to turn this pain into purpose, which, Leroy, you are absolutely doing. You succeeded, by the way, if no one has told you that. 5. He's like, Here, let this be a lesson. Like, listen to what people are telling you. Because remember, the cops spoke to this guy many times and didn't pursue him.

[Julie Benavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And so this is when Leroy's like, hey, do your fucking jobs.

[Julie Benavali]

Yeah. And even the cops will admit that if they had listened to Tiffany Taylor, Sarah might still be alive. Like, that's how this episode started, was by Tiffany saying, like, if they had just listened to me, more people didn't have to die.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. So by December 2019. Now it's like a few years later, because this was all in 2016. December of 2019, Tiffany testifies and she nails. Yeah, she. So now this is, what, the fourth time on the sand that she has to tell this horrible thing that happened to her.

[Julie Benavali]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And so now we learn about even more victims of this guy, because now that they're like, wait, Tiffany. And now they're, like, connected to Robin, and now they're going back and they're like, oh, wait a second.

[Julie Benavali]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And now these cops are like, well, maybe all these years later, we'll start to look into the connections and see all of the terror that this guy really did. So we learn about Joanne Brown, who's another victim who was found a few blocks away from the killers. Again, duct tape and strangled just like.

[Julie Benavali]

Tiffany in an abandoned house.

[Patrick Hines]

Yep. And then mawa Dumbia, who's 15 years old. It took three years to find her. He was later charged with her murder after Tiffany testified. So Tiffany, still doing the amazing work.

[Julie Benavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And then we're back with Leah Webb, the state senator, saying. And she gives these numbers that are like, I know we say it all the time, but when we hear it, it's pretty insane.

[Tiffany Taylor]

More than 250,000 women and girls go missing every year. And of that, 30% were black women and girls. It is a systemic failure.

[Patrick Hines]

30% of those are black women.

[Julie Benavali]

But also And I think this is really important, too. Like, our news anchor friends are telling us it was only at this point that the killer is named a serial killer, and that was the point at which the media paid attention. Like, that is what is like when he was individually killing these black women. Nobody cared. But you put the label serial killer on him, and all of a sudden he's getting the news coverage, and then.

[Patrick Hines]

It'S like, but he doesn't look like one. Let's all look at the serial killer who doesn't look like a serial killer. It's like, well, that's what serial killers look like. They look like anybody.

[Julie Benavali]

And they also talk about the problem with these stories, and we face this, too. The problem with telling these stories is that the killer can often become the center of the story because, oh, my God, all the time, what people are so fascinated by is what makes these people tick.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Yeah. And so the killer gets 160 years in prison. The other guy from Boston killed himself in prison, but they caught him, too. Finally.

[Julie Benavali]

There's this one moment that we. Where Robin is. You know, Robin's dad is in the courtroom watching the sentencing, and he says, like, everybody in that room just wanted the killer to. To take accountability, which he does not do. Right. He says he didn't do it.

[Patrick Hines]

That'll be the day.

[Julie Benavali]

That'll be the day. Right.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my God.

[Julie Benavali]

But everyone is crying, and. And Leroy is saying, I actually had.

[Leroy (Robin's father)]

The opportunity to pray with his mother because she was sitting there in tears, and she was saying, where did I go wrong? And I had to say to her, you did nothing wrong. He did this. My anger is not going to bring my daughter back.

[Julie Benavali]

I just wondered in that moment if I could do that.

[Patrick Hines]

That's the pastor on him.

[Julie Benavali]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

You know?

[Julie Benavali]

Yes. And I would hope that I would be able to have that moment of humanity with the person who didn't do this, but did raise the person who did.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Because we don't know her story.

[Julie Benavali]

We don't.

[Patrick Hines]

And we don't know if she tried or. We don't know what their relationship was like. That. That we don't know. But that was like, oh, Leroy, your pastor is showing.

[Julie Benavali]

And I know back in. In the beginning of tco, you and I used to always say, like, don't. Unforgiveness. We used to hate that so much. And I love this moment for Leroy, if that's what he means. I don't know if I'd be able to do it, but I thought it was, like, a really interesting thing for him to tell us.

[Patrick Hines]

Now, I think in Leroy's. Again, I'm just speculating wildly, but I think this is the type of forgiveness that Leroy has where it's. It does help him and it is for him.

[Julie Benavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And because sometimes it's, like, not for you, and it's something you feel like you need to do. Because we see this a lot where it's like, my girlfriends were telling me I had to forgive them, and I said, absolutely not. Like, leave. This is something that I think Leroy really did need for healing and to move on. So Leroy can.

[Julie Benavali]

He can have it.

[Patrick Hines]

He can have it, Leroy.

[Julie Benavali]

I'll give you this one.

[Patrick Hines]

I think it's a very. It's a case by case basis.

[Julie Benavali]

Yes, yes.

[Patrick Hines]

But at the end, Leroy, Robin's dad, speaks with Tiffany and we learn that, like, they have become family.

[Julie Benavali]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And Leroy says. Cause Tiffany, like, of course, has gone through Helen back and she's doing the amazing work. But of course, like, the trailer trauma is going to come out every now and again. She's going to feel guilty, like, if she just said the right thing or whatever. Like, Tiffany, it's not your fault.

[Leroy (Robin's father)]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And Leroy says as much and says, you are the definition of a strong black woman. You're sharing your story. Being scared doesn't mean you're weak.

[Julie Benavali]

Yeah. And if you think about their connection, Leroy and Tiffany, she's probably about the age of his daughter, Robin.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Leroy (Robin's father)]

When I met Tiffany, immediately she took to me and my wife. I lost a daughter, but I gained a daughter for the rest of our lives.

[Julie Benavali]

It doesn't end here.

[Leroy (Robin's father)]

We got a whole lifetime to go.

[Tiffany Taylor]

Thank you. I appreciate you. Yes, I do.

[Julie Benavali]

Oh, God. She survived his daughter's killer. So, like, in a way. Oh, I'm just thinking about this now. She knows. Knows what his daughter went through.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, because she says, you checked on me and no one else did. And I want to say thank you. Imagine how lonely it must have been for Tiffany. Yes.

[Julie Benavali]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And Leroy says, like, he gained a daughter.

[Julie Benavali]

Yes. And she gained a father.

[Patrick Hines]

And so I just think it's a really beautiful way of, like, how people do find strength in each other in these moments. Because Leroy earlier was like, I just want to use this. This fury and this rage for good and for action. And it's like just the two of them coming together and helping each other heal in this really important. Only the other one could do for.

[Julie Benavali]

The other one for sure.

[Patrick Hines]

It's like. Like no one else could do that.

[Julie Benavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, only Tiffany.

[Julie Benavali]

It's that shared experience that only they.

[Patrick Hines]

Have could do it for each other. And it's just like, oh well now I'm sobbing on a Wednesday.

[Julie Benavali]

I know. And then in the end we get the great. Like, I love that there's a lot of on screen text at the end but they really take the time at the end to do the. In memory of Robin west who was 19 years old, Joanne Brown, 33 years old. Sarah Butler who was 20 years old and Mawa Dumbia who is 15 years old. 15.

[Patrick Hines]

I know. So this got 160 years in prison. And also he is awaiting trial for the murder of 15 year old Mawa Dumbia. So. And he's pled not guilty.

[Julie Benavali]

Like off, off.

[Patrick Hines]

And you're going to die in prison.

[Leroy (Robin's father)]

Yeah.

[Julie Benavali]

The police came to your house. Like we. What are you, what are you doing?

[Patrick Hines]

Right? But I love that it's like, oh, we're not done with them. We're still going to charge him. Because how many times did we see two where it's like, well we got him for 150 years. If this is too hard of a. But like that's how easy this case is going to be.

[Julie Benavali]

Totally.

[Patrick Hines]

That. It's like, oh this, let's just like it. Yeah, let's just, let's get him, get him on this one. So yeah, he's currently serving 160 years in a maximum security prison. The following organizations did not respond to or declined our requests for comment. Union County Police Department, Elizabeth Police Department and the Montclair Police Department.

[Julie Benavali]

Just like fudgeing. Sit down and answer for yourself.

[Patrick Hines]

And those are all in Jersey, by the way.

[Julie Benavali]

How humanizing would it be for the cops to be like, yeah, we kind of fucked this up.

[Patrick Hines]

Look, we say this all the time. Don't you want to be a hero?

[Julie Benavali]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Don't you want to do the right thing? And what does it say about the system you're in?

[Julie Benavali]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

If you can't say that was wrong.

[Julie Benavali]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

And we learned from that. And here's what we're doing better. That's a problem.

[Julie Benavali]

Because if police want to have more of the civic trust, this is how you earn it.

[Patrick Hines]

And they're never, I mean, but wouldn't.

[Julie Benavali]

You think, don't they talk the talk, you know, like they want the people to trust them. You want to feel safe when you see a police. How many documentaries have we covered lately where it's like. And that changed the way I look at policing forever. That's every time I pass a cop on the highway now I'm terrified. You want to earn back some trust, take some accountability. No one is expecting you to get it right 100% of the time. Wouldn't that be nice if you did? That is not an expectation anybody has. Sit down and say, we messed this up.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And it also ends with, if you or someone you know has experienced sexual assault, you are not alone. Yeah. And then rain. You know that RAIN, that great organization RAIN with two ends. So they have, like 24. 7 support. You can go to RAIN with two ends.org or you can call. Remember, phone calls.

[Julie Benavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Toll free, 1-800-656-HOPE, which is 4673. So, yeah, I just love. I just got the cheesiest, like, urge to say, be the change you want to see in the world. But, like, that's kind of how I feel about that. It's like, do the right thing, everybody. And you're also not alone.

[Julie Benavali]

So here's the thing. Here's our petition. We want mental health professionals on the set for interviews, and we want cops to say that we fucked this one.

[Patrick Hines]

Up and Robin Roberts to rule everything. I know I can't. It's a lot to put on her shoulders, but I just love that she, like. Don't you feel like, oh, she's taking.

[Julie Benavali]

Care of everything 100%.

[Patrick Hines]

You know, I feel safe for round.

[Julie Benavali]

Like, Robin, give us more episodes, girl.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my God, Robin, please. I know you're busy, but, you know, thank you. Bye.

[Julie Benavali]

Oh, girl. We did. What's it called?

[Patrick Hines]

This is that show Murder Has Two Faces. I don't. Here's a. Here's a critique.

[Julie Benavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

A bit of constructive criticism for the show. I don't love the episode titles. This is good Guys gone bad.

[Julie Benavali]

Oh, yeah, I agree.

[Patrick Hines]

I love.

[Julie Benavali]

You know, while we're doing this, like, there's a little lower third action. I like it when you bring the lower third back for the third or fourth time we see somebody.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julie Benavali]

You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

You know who never has lower thirds. Dateline. They say the name of the person.

[Julie Benavali]

Yes, you're right.

[Patrick Hines]

I like a lower third, but I know.

[Julie Benavali]

Now give us a low. Give us a lower third.

[Patrick Hines]

We have a lot of today anyway, fam.

[Julie Benavali]

We love you. Join the Facebook group. Join us on Patreon. Follow us on the socials. Oh, my God. And follow us on YouTube. We have over a hundred thousand subscribers now.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And we will see you very soon. We are not done with these bonus episodes. So we will see you. I don't know. But soon.

[Julie Benavali]

Next Thursday.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Well, it sounds from whatever day this is, whatever day. We'll see you very, very soon, all right?

[Julie Benavali]

We love you. Goodbye.

[Patrick Hines]

We love you by.