462: Dateline: The Betrayal of Sandra Birchmore (S33E87)

Summary

True Crime Obsessed, Ep. 462

Dateline: "The Betrayal of Sandra Birchmore" (S33E87)

Release Date: October 16, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode of True Crime Obsessed recaps the Dateline investigation into the tragic and controversial death of Sandra Birchmore. The hosts, Steve and Jillian Mazavali, blend humor and righteous anger as they delve into a case entwined with small-town police corruption, sexual abuse by officers, systemic failures, and a rare example of true accountability by a female police chief. The episode draws striking connections between Sandra's case and the widely publicized Karen Read trial, exposing an alarming pattern of misconduct within Massachusetts law enforcement.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Scene: Canton, Stoughton, & Constabulary Corruption

• (00:00–03:12) Steve and Jillian open by drawing connections between Sandra Birchmore’s case and the Karen Read trial, emphasizing the persistent corruption in Canton-area police departments.

  "I'm going to connect all the dots for everyone." – Steve (00:09)

• (02:18–03:53) The Dateline episode sets a grim, wintery Massachusetts backdrop, referencing a major storm as the inciting incident for Sandra’s story.

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2. Who Was Sandra Birchmore?

• (05:11–07:16) Sandra, age 23, was a dedicated teacher’s aide, described as energetic, outgoing, and closely bonded with her mother and extended family.

• (15:27–16:10) Raised by a single mother in modest circumstances, Sandra lost her mother and grandmother as a teenager—leaving her particularly vulnerable.

  "Mom Denise was not well for a good portion of Sandra's life, but they're still very close." – Jillian (15:56)

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3. Mysterious Disappearance & Discovery

• (06:37–12:50) After a few days away due to the storm, Sandra’s unexplained absence from work and failure to respond to calls lead to a welfare check. Police find her deceased in her apartment—the initial theory: suicide by hanging with a duffel bag strap.

• (12:53–14:01) Both family and therapist reject the suggestion of suicide, highlighting the discrepancy between Sandra’s excitement about her pregnancy and the official narrative of despair.

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4. Criminal Justice Programs as a Lure

• (09:34–10:58) The hosts criticize the Explorer Program—nominally a law enforcement mentorship for teens—as a “hotbed for grooming,” noting the total lack of oversight and female leadership.

  "It's run by men. There is no oversight or regulation into this program. It is... a hotbed for fucking grooming. It is disgusting." – Jillian (09:56)

• (17:45–19:03) Sandra’s teenage years were deeply entwined with this program, originally seen as a positive opportunity by her mother but ultimately a channel of predation.

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5. Predatory Relationships and Grooming

• (21:31–22:03) Chief Donna McNamara emerges as a pivotal figure—the rare cop to publicly admit law enforcement failures.

• (31:13–31:50) Donna’s internal affairs investigation reveals not just Sandra’s relationship with Officer Matthew Farwell, but a coordinated pattern of exploitation by multiple members of the Stoughton PD.

• (51:22–53:45) Multiple officers, including twins Matthew and William Farwell and their supervisor Robert Devine, used their authority to groom and sexually exploit Sandra from the age of 15.

  "These young girls... have been grooming them this whole time. And the quote 'sharing'..." – Jillian (53:23)

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6. Cover-ups, Failures, and Lost Evidence

• (35:15–37:41) Jillian and Steve emphasize how deeply Sandra’s case is entwined with the Karen Read investigation, noting that the same compromised officers and medical examiner handle both cases.

• (67:09–68:57) Official investigators falsely claim there is "not a trace" of communication between Farwell and Sandra, later shown to be a blatant lie as 32,000+ texts are discovered and exposed by Chief McNamara.

  "...in the affidavit...there were no texts between Farwell and Sandra...and then Chief McNamara comes in...actually, there were 32,000." – Steve (68:27)

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7. Women as Agents of Change

• (03:12–03:53; 21:16–21:42) The episode spotlights Chief Donna McNamara as a beacon of truth, accountability, and rare leadership—a woman unafraid to call out institutional rot and take courageous action.

  "She did something unprecedented, and it shouldn't be unprecedented...almost every time it's a woman." – Steve (03:53)
  "I think Chief Donna is here to take accountability...she's here to say we fudged up and I love her." – Jillian (21:43)

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8. The Path to Justice: New Evidence & Public Pressure

• (59:13–60:17) Chief McNamara releases a redacted but damning 45-page public report exposing the officers’ misconduct, sexual exploitation, and the interconnected failures that led to Sandra’s death.

• (70:06–71:17) The family’s legal team, including renowned forensic pathologist Dr. Michael Baden, provides a new autopsy: finding clear evidence of homicide by strangulation.

• (70:26–70:33) In October 2024, Matthew Farwell is finally arrested and charged for Sandra's murder—a breakthrough only achieved after years of stonewalling.

  "His findings made headlines...concluding what the family had long believed: Sandra's death was a homicide." – Narrator (70:06)
  "October 28, 2024, this Farwell asshole was arrested for the murder..." – Steve (70:26)

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9. Systemic Rot & Ongoing Questions

• (62:36–63:11) Despite the report and new evidence, the state police refuse to reopen the case, clinging to the original suicide determination. Only relentless media and podcast attention finally prompt the FBI’s involvement.

• (76:02–76:52) A final shock: DNA reveals Sandra’s baby was not fathered by Farwell—intensifying the suggestion of even deeper layers of abuse and cover-up.

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10. Enduring Systemic Critique

• (54:52–55:35) The hosts repeatedly highlight the need to confront institutional protecting of abusers and how rare real accountability is, reiterating the “few bad apples spoil the barrel” adage.

• (77:09–78:09) The episode concludes on a bittersweet note: Justice is long overdue and incomplete, but thanks to the extraordinary actions of a few, especially Chief Donna, there is hope for accountability.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "She did something unprecedented, and it shouldn't be unprecedented almost every time it's a woman." – Steve (03:53)
• "This was a hotbed for grooming illicit, horrifying activity, and it shouldn't be." – Steve (09:50)
• "To find this information about people that are supposed to be protecting others...it's vile." – Chief Donna McNamara (53:47)
• "We are hopefully working towards justice for her." – Chief Donna McNamara (77:59)
• "The rapes and the murders, in my opinion, go hand in hand...that’s very clear to me." – Steve (76:52)
• "Travel down the road back again, girl." (A recurring tongue-in-cheek refrain for dark transitions)

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Important Timestamps (MM:SS)

• 03:12 – Jillian on women “doing the work” in justice
• 07:16 – Discovery of Sandra’s body, initial suicide ruling
• 13:25 – Family and therapist skepticism about suicide
• 31:50 – Internal investigation exposes multiple abusers in police department
• 49:50 – Shocking discovery of 32,000+ texts between victim and officer
• 59:13 – Chief McNamara's public condemnation and 45-page report
• 70:06 – Dr. Michael Baden's new autopsy: homicide by strangulation
• 70:26 – Farwell’s arrest for murder
• 77:59 – Chief Donna’s vow to keep fighting for justice

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Tone & Style

The hosts balance rage and darkly comic asides; they are unapologetically critical of systemic police corruption and conspiratorial cover-ups, reserving real admiration for the courage of female officials and the tenacity of Sandra’s surviving family. The tone is intimate, passionate, and not above using expletives or gallows humor to underline their horror and frustration.

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In summary:
This episode exposes a harrowing web of abuse, betrayal, and cover-up in small-town Massachusetts, underscored by the rare but vital example of a woman demanding justice from within a broken system. The hosts’ energy and perspective make clear that the fight for justice—for Sandra and others—is far from over, and that systemic rot will only end when more leaders are willing to act like Chief Donna McNamara.

Transcript

[Steve]

I can't believe we're here again. But we have to talk about Karen Reed a little bit more. I mean, at least drag the corrupt cops yet again.

[Jillian Mazavali]

I was going to say have to or get to.

[Steve]

I mean, we are dragging those Canton officers. I mean, I'm going to connect all the dots for everyone. Don't you?

[Jillian Mazavali]

Okay, good. They need to go to that town, surround it and get all the nice people out and then burn it to the ground.

[Steve]

I mean, and once a storm is coming, everyone hunker down. Because whenever there's a big storm, the corruption is out in full force. Sandra Butchmore, we have your back.

[Jillian Mazavali]

We got you.

[Steve]

Get to the bottom of the squirrel.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Hi. Jillian Mazavali. Hello.

[Steve]

Patrick Hines.

[Jillian Mazavali]

We don't really tell them the things in the interest for the bonus. So tell me a joke.

[Steve]

Oh, my God. Where do cows go on Saturday nights?

[Jillian Mazavali]

Where?

[Steve]

The movie.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Stop it. That was a really unexpectedly. If you had said that to me, I would not have had one at the wedding.

[Steve]

I always have that in my back pocket.

[Jillian Mazavali]

You do?

[Steve]

I should have a couple of more. I feel like real die hard listeners will be like, you always say that one.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Wait, why do birds fly south for the winner?

[Steve]

I don't know. Why?

[Jillian Mazavali]

Because it's too far to walk.

[Steve]

Oh, there you go. See, I like that. I was trying to think of, like, what's the obvious, like how. Where's the gotcha? Where's the gotcha? Gotcha.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah. Well, hi, girl. Tell me what we're talking about today.

[Steve]

So this is our 16th bonus episode of the year. This is a new dateline that just came out. It's season 33, episode 87.

[Jillian Mazavali]

I know.

[Steve]

The betrayal of Sandra Birchmore.

[Cheryl Carlson]

She was really looking forward to creating her own family. We tried our best and sorry, it wasn't enough. Because if it was, she would be here.

[Chief Donna McNamara]

They found Sandra deceased in her apartment.

[Sandra Birchmore's Therapist]

I was told that she had committed suicide, but in the back of my mind it isn't adding up.

[Cheryl Carlson]

Given how excited she was about becoming a mom. It didn't jive with us.

[Narrator/Reporter]

This broken necklace, this was a clue to you?

[Steve]

Definitely.

[Chief Donna McNamara]

Yeah. I said, that sounds like a sign of a struggle.

[Cheryl Carlson]

When I first saw the video, my jaw dropped.

[Jillian Mazavali]

He's walking into the apartment. He has a mask on. He's got a hoodie on over his head.

[Chief Donna McNamara]

I'm thinking somebody murdered her.

[Narrator/Reporter]

You're thinking cover up?

[Chief Donna McNamara]

Definitely.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Your investigation revealed a bombshell.

[Chief Donna McNamara]

Yes, it did.

[Jillian Mazavali]

It's February 1, 2021. It was a cold and bluff restart to the Week a nor' Easter was blowing in, which we know means shit's.

[Steve]

About to go down in Canton, in this area, 100%. Andrea Canning is here. She's our host. She's. She's awesome. I've never have, like, I'm not, like, critiquing Andrea Canning, but I love that she's here. The reason this is happening, if the name Sandra Birchmore is familiar to you, it's. This was a major conversation happening at the height of the Karen Reed trial because so many of the players in this horrible case were also in that horrible case.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah, I didn't know that, really. I mean, and I didn't even connect the dots when they said Canton at one point. And I'm from Massachusetts. I should know this.

[Steve]

Yeah. So this was a rabbit hole. I went down while the second trial was happening, like, when we were covering it. So I'll sort of be a little bit of a guide to be like, if that name sounds familiar, remember that thing that happened when we covered it? I'll just bring it. Bring it back. Like, it's important that Dateline is cover this case for, like, a lot of reasons.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And can I just say one thing? I was screaming on an episode recently about how if cops are all about building community trust, if they could ever just take a little bit of accountability, like, the idea that nobody is expecting everybody to be perfect all the time. Chief Donna is here, and she does that. She's here to say, shit was fucked up. Shit was fucked up on my watch, and we are not going to let it happen again. I just wanted to really thank her for her candor, for her honesty, because it is so, so rare. This is another episode of the women doing the work. And I'm not even saying that as, like, a TCO catchphrase. I'm saying that, like, the women are going to save us. The women in this episode are so amazing. And I'm just. I don't know. I'm very happy to get to tell this story.

[Cheryl Carlson]

Yeah.

[Steve]

It shouldn't be rare, but you'll hear us be like, she did something unprecedented, and it shouldn't be unprecedented almost every.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Time it's a woman. You know what I mean? It's.

[Steve]

I do.

[Jillian Mazavali]

It is really. It is really, really unbelievable. Like, as a man, it's sometimes hard to take because I try to do.

[Steve]

My best because we're so awesome.

[Jillian Mazavali]

No, but in all honesty, like, it's kind of hard to live in a world that can feel very anti. Man. I totally understand why that is, but it's also like, when you are a man who is just trying to do their best, it's hard. It's hard to hear it all the time. But I got to say, these women are doing shit that men would never do.

[Steve]

And we meet so many of them. So we know Andrea Canning. Right. Our old friend Andrea.

[Jillian Mazavali]

I love her so much.

[Steve]

Then Cheryl Carlson. So at the time, it's February 1.

[Narrator/Reporter]

2021, Cheryl Carlson, then assistant Princip at East elementary School just outside of Boston, scrambled to get everyone out the door before the storm hit.

[Sandra Birchmore's Therapist]

Always a lot going on when we have to be calling parents, making sure students are getting home, calling parents.

[Steve]

She's getting everything organized. She's, like, on top of it.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And can I say, having grown up in Massachusetts, we definitely had snow days. I don't remember a snowstorm ever being so bad that they canceled school midday.

[Steve]

Yeah, that's 2021 weather for you.

[Jillian Mazavali]

You know what I mean? Yeah, I guess that's true. I mean, it was really. The snow is bad up there, but it's. Yeah, it's. It's real bad in this town, apparently.

[Steve]

Yeah. So Cheryl tells us about Sandra Birchmore. She's 23 years old. She's a teacher's assistant. She was helping Cheryl with everything.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Steve]

And Cheryl's here to say, like, everything was kind of panicky and stressful, only because of the weather. But in terms of Sandra, everything was fine. Like, nothing struck Cheryl as different. With Sandra, it was just like all hands on deck. We got to get these kids home. We got to do the phone trees. Like, that's where the focus is right now.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And Sandra's a teacher's aide at this school.

[Steve]

Sometimes when Mike and I want to take a day off in the middle of the week, we'll just call it a snow day.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Really?

[Steve]

It's just like a cute little. Say, is it weird to call something that I do cute? But it's like a thing where it's like, should we have a snow day?

[Jillian Mazavali]

You guys do another cute thing that we've talked about on this podcast sometimes where once every now and then, one of you will go on Facebook and post on the other wall, like, hi.

[Steve]

It'S for a bir. If it's like my birthday or like an anniversary whenever, usually people are like, let me tell, you know, going pages and pages. Michael, just post like, so.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I always comment cuz I'm like, I feel like you guys are just down the hall from each other. I love it.

[Steve]

Yeah. Or he'll be like, we'll be watching, you know, sitting next to each other, and it'll be like, ding. Mike posted on your.

[Cheryl Carlson]

And I'm like, oh, right.

[Steve]

It's my birthday.

[Jillian Mazavali]

It's my birthday. Right.

[Steve]

Instead of doing, like, the 10 page, you know?

[Jillian Mazavali]

Totally. God, the pressure for that really is a lot, Steven.

[Steve]

I never subscribed.

[Jillian Mazavali]

We don't. But on our, like, you know, 13th anniversary, I'm like, it today. I'm doing it.

[Steve]

Sure. Yeah. I think there's definitely. If you scroll back years and years, there's definitely, like, on this day we got married because it, like, rained on our wedding day. It was very perfect to us kind of moment.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Well, speaking of awesome women, Sandra Birchmore.

[Steve]

Yes. So three days later, when school reopened.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Three days later, Sandra wasn't in her classroom.

[Sandra Birchmore's Therapist]

I get a call asking, have I seen Sandra? And no, I haven't seen her yet that day. I'm like, is she not here? Like, no, she hasn't shown up.

[Steve]

Everyone's back at work except for Sandra Birchmore.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And that always killed me because Sandra's old enough to, like, she lives on her own, and nobody has noticed that she's been missing for three days because.

[Steve]

Everyone'S been hunkered down.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Steve]

So Cheryl's like, yeah, you know, she didn't show up, show up. But to be fair, no one went to 100 right away. She's like, it is weird, but maybe there was a miscommunication because she is like, sandra is super responsible. Like, no one is jumping to terror and panic.

[Jillian Mazavali]

No. But Cheryl, her boss, does take action. I was like, everybody needs a share. A boss like Cheryl and a cousin like Angelique when we meet her, like, I love that that Cheryl's, like, not super weird. But we're going to look into that.

[Steve]

Because she's like, there's a protocol. So I'm following the protocol. So what happens is the school calls Sandra. No answer. And so then after that, they call the school resource officer, and then that person takes over. And so when the school resource officer takes over, the first step is to call the police. Travel down the road back again, girl.

[Jillian Mazavali]

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[Steve]

Yeah. Because we're all too busy to be, like, calling out of work, wasting money on a workout class. We're not going to, like, we have stuff to do tomorrow. So our first drink of the night is going to be Zebiotics Pre alcohol probiotic.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah. So what it is is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic. It was invented by PhD scientists to tackle rough mornings after drinking.

[Steve]

And so here's how it works. When you drink, alcohol gets converted into a toxic byproduct in the gut.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah. It's a buildup of this byproduct, not dehydration, that's to blame for rough days after drinking.

[Steve]

Pre alcohol produces an enzyme to break this byproduct down. Just remember to make pre alcohol your first drink of the night. Drink responsibly, and you'll feel your best tomorrow.

[Jillian Mazavali]

This stuff works, fam. I gotta tell you. So, fam. Fall is here. That means it's sweater weather and time to enjoy cooler weather and some drinks out with friends.

[Steve]

Whether you're enjoying a glass of wine at a fall festival or a spooky cocktail at a Halloween party, don't forget to drink a pre alcohol before drinking.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah, you'll be able to celebrate and still wake up feeling great the next day.

[Steve]

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[Jillian Mazavali]

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[Steve]

Remember to head to zebiotics.com tco and use the code tco at checkout for 15% off.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Thank you, Zebiotics, for sponsoring this episode and our good times. So they call the student cops. The student cops are sent out to do a welfare check. We're going to learn in a minute that the cops know Sandra and they. And they care about her. They should do this for anybody. But you can tell there's a little bit more urgency because she's known to them.

[Steve]

Yeah. So Donna McNamara is the Stoughton Chief of police. And Donna says first and foremost, yes, of course. Just like you're saying they're doing that anyway. But she's like, Sandra Bushmore. How do I know that name? She knows that name because Sandra was part of something called the Explorer program.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Which should be shut down in every town.

[Steve]

Going forward, it is a hotbed for grooming illicit, horrifying activity, and it shouldn't be.

[Jillian Mazavali]

The idea of the program is that it teaches kids about different career paths in law enforcement. That should be an amazing thing. I could see Daisy even being interested in that. Like, but, like, I mean, we're going to learn later. It's run by men. There is no oversight or regulation into this program. It is, like you said, a hotbed for fucking grooming. It is disgusting. And these men should burn in hell for the rest of their lives.

[Steve]

And so here's something interesting. Sandra had just moved to Canton. Now, if that town sounds familiar to you, it's because that's where John o' Keefe was killed. And it's the same police force that charged Karen Reed with his murder. So now the Canton police have this case because that's where Sandra Birchmore currently lives.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yes.

[Steve]

And I. You will be the expert on this. But I Googled it. Just like I went on Google Maps. Can and. And Stoughton are basically the same town. Like, they border each other.

[Jillian Mazavali]

This is the thing where, like, if. Okay, my Massachusetts people. If you grew up on Cape Cod, it's like its own country. You don't really. My friend Allison will know all about the other towns in Massachusetts, but I actually have no idea. Like, I. Growing up in Cape Cod, you know, it's like the arm at the end of the Massachusetts. And so you don't go over the bridge. It's very much I don't know. So the answer is, you know more than I do.

[Steve]

Well, in my Googling, it's sort. It's not like, oh, like. Like they're kind of part of the same counties. Like, they kind of. There's no big, like, oh, I'm in Stoughton now. There. There's like, a line that no one. It's an invisible line. And, like, you can be on one at, like, the store, on one in Canton across the street, and then it's Stoughton. It's like the same exact.

[Jillian Mazavali]

So weird to hear you say words like towns where I grew up. It's so funny.

[Steve]

I have to have Stoughton written phonetically. So I don't.

[Jillian Mazavali]

We got lucky because it could have been like, Worcester. It could have been, like, Peabody, which looks like Peabody.

[Steve]

Worcester is Worchester is how it's spelled.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Steve]

So the Canton police and the school resource officer go to Sandra's home together.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Officers knocked on her door with no answer. They reported back to the station.

[Steve]

We're not getting an answer at the door here. What about a car?

[Jillian Mazavali]

Do we have a car out in the water? If the car's there, then.

[Steve]

Then we. We gotta go in.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Sandra's blue Chevy was there, so officers asked the building manager for a key to her apartment.

[Jillian Mazavali]

We actually hear the call where, like, the officer on duty calls it in, and they're like, if her car is there, you need to go in. Like, they really care about finding out what's going on with this car.

[Narrator/Reporter]

I should hope so.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Steve]

So, Sam. So Michelle McPhee is a journalist and she covered this case a lot. And she is here with us.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Steve]

And she says the cops go in and the kitchen was messy, but, like, no sign of a struggle. No force entry, no break in.

[Jillian Mazavali]

So it's just like. Michelle, you had to mention the messy kitchen. She's like a kid just out of college working as a teacher's assistant. Like, her ramen noodle cups are probably all over the place.

[Steve]

Everyone was getting ready for the storm. Like, enough.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And also, like, what is so wrong with a messy kitchen? Steve. It's fine sometimes. You know what I mean?

[Steve]

Yeah.

[Jillian Mazavali]

It's not the end of the world.

[Steve]

Steve.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Steve. But there's no sign of a struggle or a break in or Sandra until they get to the bedroom and Sandra is there, and they say that, like, right away they think that she's died by suicide. There's a strap of a duffel bag around her neck, and they just assume this is a straightforward, tragic suicide.

[Steve]

Yeah. Already it's kind of like, really?

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Steve]

It doesn't really. See, the cops are like, oh, no question. But even these little details we get, it doesn't really make a whole ton of sense.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Well, because there's also no question that the cops on the scene. No more than we know at this point of the time. Suicide, you say, great, check it off.

[Steve]

Well, how easy, friends? You know, I'm not saying this, but, like, how easy is that for the case to be closed?

[Jillian Mazavali]

So this is, you were saying during the Karen read when we were covering it, like, the absolute corruption in the Massachusetts. It's police. This is such a brazen, shocking example of it.

[Steve]

Yeah.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Really. It's going to boil your blood.

[Steve]

And it goes on and on. So, Barbara, right. We get a lot of Sandra's family and a lot of her cousins. So Barbara is one of Sandra's cousins. And she says, like, we were just texting. Everything seemed fine.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Like, yeah, Saying to me, cousin Justine is here.

[Narrator/Reporter]

After Sandra's death, she reached out to the therapist to let her know what had happened.

[Sandra Birchmore's Therapist]

Her therapist was in shock. She said that she had just seen Sandra on Friday afternoon and everything seemed fine.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Is the therapist in agreement with you that this does feel odd?

[Sandra Birchmore's Therapist]

She was.

[Jillian Mazavali]

She was in therapy. She's going to therapy.

[Steve]

She's working on it.

[Jillian Mazavali]

She's Working on it. Who among us doesn't have mental health struggles?

[Steve]

You know what I mean?

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Steve]

I came in, like, yes, the answer. What? And the short answer is everybody.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Exactly.

[Steve]

So. Because the point is, even though we know that what Sandra's family is saying doesn't always mean anything, like, sometimes something is brewing behind the scenes, but, like, we have to respect that her family is saying, like, there weren't any signs for them, and they were a close family.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And Cheryl, the assistant principal, who Sandra's boss, is like, right away, I thought this could be murder. Like, right away, people are like, this makes absolutely no sense.

[Steve]

What's interesting about Cheryl, who's Sandra's boss, she says that the news was scary. And I thought that was a really interesting word to use because it shows that Cheryl immediately knows that something is wrong.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Steve]

And she's really honest about it now. But the word scary and, like, it made her stomach drop. It's like her gut was screaming at her.

[Jillian Mazavali]

I think one of the things in date lines and documentaries, I think that the. The interviewees often know more than we know that they know. Like, everybody knows that this girl is connected to the cops, and the cops are kind of corrupt. So I think when there's, like, a suicide that's out of character, all of a sudden you're like, oh, wait a second.

[Steve]

Yeah, yeah. So the medical examiner, same one in the John o', Keefe, Karen Reed case.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Oh, really? We need to do something about this guy.

[Steve]

Just you wait. I'm telling you.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Oh, my God.

[Steve]

They confirm that Sandra took her own life immediately. Case closed, end of story. Right. So we learn more about Sandra. She was raised by a single mom, working class. She was always full of life. Like, there's always a lot going on in Sandra's life.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Steve]

Good or bad. But she was always, like, really energetic, really outgoing. She's described as, like, not shy. Like, she's interested in you. She'd ask questions. She just wanted to be around people.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And she was really close with her mom, Denise.

[Narrator/Reporter]

They always did things together.

[Cheryl Carlson]

Her mother always had the best interests, you know, for Sandra. But Denise was not well. She had asthma, she had heart disease. She had diabetes. She wasn't well for a good portion of Sandra's life.

[Jillian Mazavali]

We're told that mom Denise was not well for a good portion of Sandra's life, but they're still very close.

[Steve]

And Andrea Canning says, like, that must have been rough.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Steve]

Like being the single mom, struggling with money, struggling with your health. Sandra is a kid.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yes.

[Steve]

You know, Andrea Canning really Says, like. Like, man, like, poor everyone, you know, like, it's just a lot to navigate.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And until I'm told otherwise, I will call the dad a piece of shit because he's not anywhere in Sandra's life. And we don't get any further information.

[Steve]

We don't get any information.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Dads are the worst until proven otherwise by me.

[Steve]

Except that Denise always. It was, like, really important that Sandra had strong role models. That's something that Denise really wanted. So I guess to your point, she didn't have a father figure in her life.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Can I just say, too, as a parent, that conversation is so dicey. You want your kid to have strong role models, but why are they all groomers, abusers? Like, you know what I mean? And I know, like, I'm saying that as a joke. I know that's not really true. I know there are a lot of people out there that work with kids that are wonderful, but, like, there are so many of them that are not that, like, I'm afraid to leave my kid alone at gymnastics. I'm afraid to leave my kid alone at karate. Like, it is. The world is full of monsters, and we just want to enrich the lives of our kids. We just want to take them out there and let them do all the fun stuff. But, like, the world is terrifying.

[Steve]

Yeah. I mean, hopefully Michael Verner is one of the good ones.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Here's hoping.

[Steve]

Here's what I mean. According to Andrea Canning.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah. He lives in the town of Canton, so we don't know, like, honestly, can we love you? I'm sure most of you are great.

[Steve]

So he's the martial arts instructor, and he's just here to say, like, yeah. I knew Sandra from when she was about 11 years old.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Steve]

She always had a blast. She had a smile on her face. She was, like, great at the martial arts studio, which I loved that for her.

[Jillian Mazavali]

I love that she was, like, a tough kid, that. Not a tough kid, but she was like a kid who wanted to be physical. She just wants to do well in whatever she tries.

[Steve]

Yeah. You know, and like, martial arts is, like, so much about discipline almost. Mostly about discipline, you know, and he just has, like, nothing but great things to say about Sandra.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And then we learn about the Explorers program. It was in another opportunity for her. I'm sure the mom who's not doing well is like, go be around cops. Cops will, like, teach you the world and you'll, like. It'll be great.

[Steve]

So, yeah, let's slow down on this. So at 13 years old, Sandra starts The Explorer program, which is modeled off of a nationwide program started by the Boy Scouts.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Wolf.

[Steve]

But it was very, and I'm not saying this as a joke, I'm not being like ghoulish about it.

[Narrator/Reporter]

We're told the curriculum was hands on. Law enforcement officers taught classes, led boot camp drills, and arranged ride alongs.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Can we talk about ride alongs with a 13 year old? Like, if I'm calling the police because there's a man that's broken into my house, can a 13 year old not be in the car, please?

[Steve]

Yeah. What's the. What are the details of these ride alongs? Is it just like a way to get the kid alone? What, like, what is the.

[Jillian Mazavali]

It really breaks my heart because a program like this could be so good. We had an officer who I grew up in like low income housing in Massachusetts. We had a cop that patrolled it all the time. He was like assigned to our neighborhood. He was great. Unless. Unless he. But as far as I know, he was great. He would come in, he would let us like play with like the lights and the sirens and he would come in every day. And his name was Officer Nick. Like, these things can be good. They can be great for a community. They can be great for kids. But like, I'm sorry, where is the oversight? Where are the women?

[Steve]

There's. Yeah, I didn't see a single woman in charge there.

[Jillian Mazavali]

I'm okay with push ups in a parking lot. Yeah, I'll give them that.

[Steve]

But it just sort of felt like, oh, so this is also a little bit disciplinary because it's not just like, here's like, learn what the cops do. I know cops have to do push ups. Maybe we'll get to that whole thing in a minute.

[Jillian Mazavali]

But there is like a physical fitness aspect to it, which I don't hate.

[Steve]

No, I don't either. It just feels like, especially when your.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Kid eats so much macaroni and cheese.

[Steve]

You know what, let's not.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And chicken nuggets. But could, you know, last night it took us about 15 minutes to get Daisy to eat about a centimeter long beet. And we just sat at the table. We just refused to get up until she ate it.

[Steve]

Okay, here's something. Yeah. Sometimes beets taste like dirt. And it's because that's where they come from. They are rude.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Couldn't agree more. But it is honestly, the.

[Steve]

You didn't dress it up for. No, it's like, here's a raw beet.

[Jillian Mazavali]

No, no, no, no.

[Cheryl Carlson]

We cooked it.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Oh, my God. We're not monster. We're tired of the chair. Forced it into her mouth.

[Steve]

You were at Shoot farms just for cigar to eat beets?

[Jillian Mazavali]

No, but, like, beets are the sweetest. They are so sweet. They're not delicious, but they're very sweet. So, like, we've tried everything. Peas and green. She will not eat vegetables. So, Steve, the other day was like, we're turning a. She's eating vegetables starting today. And so we made her eat a beet. And it. We made her eat a centimeter of a beat, and she liked it. But I'm just saying that, like, when your kids are eating this much garbage and then we send them to the explorer program, I'm fine with d doing five push ups. I mean, sure, you know, I'm not yelling at you. I know you're on my side.

[Steve]

Put like a bunch of peas and macaroni and cheese and call it a day.

[Jillian Mazavali]

You think Daisy is smarter than that?

[Steve]

Like I say, she's not. I don't. I don't think it's smart. It's like, if you want the Mac and cheese, you got to eat it with a couple of pieces, but then.

[Jillian Mazavali]

She won't eat it.

[Steve]

Okay, then you don't have the Mac and cheese. Good night.

[Jillian Mazavali]

I. But that. That is a thing parents tell me if I'm wrong. That only works in theory. That doesn't work in practice. Like, I'm not going to send my kid. I'm not debating, but, like, I'm not going to send my kid to bed without. Now she's crying. She's starving.

[Steve]

Give her 10 minutes. You know, D in bed, staring up at the wall, she'll go.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Maybe most kids, but you know her, you know, she won't. And then she'll get up in the middle of the night and go make herself 10 gallons of chocolate milk or something.

[Steve]

Oh, my God.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Why did I have kids? It's nightmare.

[Steve]

So Sandra did this program all through high school, and she wanted to either be, like, a cop or maybe join the military.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Steve]

And so this is where we finally officially meet Chief Donna McNamara. And she was a lieutenant.

[Jillian Mazavali]

God damn it. She's awesome.

[Steve]

She's awesome. I mean, truly, if she were here, she'd be like, I literally just showed up to work that day. Like, she to her. And this is how it should be. She wasn't doing anything that extraordina. She was just doing the right thing.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And if I may, I like a lot of people in these documentaries. She's not here because she wants to be. I really think that Chief Donna is here to take accountability, I think. And she, Donna didn't do anything wrong, but this happened in an apartment that she worked and she was not running it at the time. This is not Donna's fault.

[Steve]

No. She's hating every second of this. Honestly.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Like, she's here to say we fudged up and I love her. I was begging for that last week.

[Steve]

Yeah. So she was a lieutenant when Sandra was in this program and she is explaining like, I had been on a.

[Chief Donna McNamara]

Couple calls recently to calls to her home when she was a young teenager with her mom.

[Narrator/Reporter]

She's fighting with her mom.

[Chief Donna McNamara]

Yes.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Would it get physical?

[Chief Donna McNamara]

Nope. Sometimes it was just not seeing eye.

[Steve]

To eye growing up. This is where we get, you know, those little Dateline.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Lower thoughts. Yeah, yeah.

[Steve]

Did you always see eye to eye with your parents? Tweet us @datelinebc. Hashtag dateline. Like dateline, Come on. But I'd rather that than like, have you ever walked in on a loved one murdered?

[Jillian Mazavali]

Totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know.

[Steve]

Dateline, Dateline. Sometimes those questions at the bottom are. But this was such a little fun.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Julian and Mike are just trying to text each other from the opposite end of the couch. Can you give them a break for five minutes?

[Steve]

Always see eye to eye with your parents. Like, no.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Does anybody actually do it? Does anybody take them up on the tweet offer?

[Steve]

Yes.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Oh, my God.

[Steve]

Travel down the road, girl.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Everyday doses back. This is one of those things I really love. So this is coffee plus benefits. Now, you know, I love coffee. I drink it every morning. But I, I switched to everyday dose mostly because I was getting that afternoon crash and I would always feel kind of like bloated and gross after my second cup of coffee. With Everyday Dose, all that goes away, girl.

[Steve]

Yeah. So it's like plus benefits, but it's also taking away all those negative things. You shouldn't have to like, suffer through your morning. No, you should be enjoying it.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And here's how they do it. So Everyday Dose combines the high quality coffee with powerful ingredients like lion's mane, chaga collagen protein, which everyone is talking about right now, and nootropics to fuel your brain, boost your focus and give you clean, sustained energy all day long. It tastes just like coffee without the downside. So we're talking no crash, no jitters, just clean sustained energy. And what they're not asking us to say, but I'm just going to say anyway. It's delicious.

[Steve]

It's delicious. Talk about a life hack. Honestly, let's get into it.

[Jillian Mazavali]

So, fam. Get 45% off your first subscription order of 30 servings of coffee.

[Steve]

Plus you'll also receive a starter kit with over $100 in free free gifts by going to everydaydose.com TCO or entering TCO at checkout.

[Jillian Mazavali]

That's everydaydose.com TCO for 45% off your first order. But only order it if you want to have great tasting coffee that makes you feel great.

[Steve]

Don't sleep on those free gifts. I love a little free gift moment.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Truly.

[Steve]

Come on. No stomach pain. And a free gift below. So, again, Sandra's kind of going through it. Her mom was not in the best health. And when Sandra is a teenager, her mom passes away. And then a month after that, her grandmother mother also passed away.

[Jillian Mazavali]

I mean, that is so hard.

[Steve]

It's really bad.

[Jillian Mazavali]

I mean, especially to happen to a teenager like that is just brutal.

[Steve]

Yeah. So Sandra gets an associate's degree in criminal justice, and she ditches her plan to become a cop because she says she's 410.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Steve]

She has asthma. She didn't think she passed the physical requirements. Not for nothing.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Do you look them up?

[Steve]

I think Sandra could have done just fine.

[Jillian Mazavali]

I think so, too.

[Steve]

Four things.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Okay.

[Steve]

One obstacle course. This event simulates the actions necessary to pursue and take down a suspect.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Oh, man.

[Steve]

So it's just like running in a zigzag. The time. The time limit is 130 seconds. 130.4 seconds.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And do we know what's in the. Are we talking tire swings? Are we. You got to swim through a moat.

[Steve]

Okay, I'll read the whole thing. So the event begins. The event begins with an obstacle course where the candidate will be faced with climbing under an obstacle, climbing up and down steps, going through an open window, climbing over a wall, and negotiating series of cones arranged in a zigzag pattern. At the end of the course, the candidate will be required to grab hold of a weighted bag attached to a pulley and touch it to the ground. Then they will immediately move around to the power station. Power. Capital P, Capital S. Oh, power station. To the handcuffing simulation.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Oh, my.

[Steve]

Or she will be required to pull on two hand levers until the cable hits the stop. This completes the event. The time limit is 130.4 seconds.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Sandra, I think you got this now. The asthma. I get it. I was, like, a fat kid with asthma. Who, like, would have asthma attacks in the middle of soccer games? I know that that can be a stumbling block.

[Steve]

Here's the second Event.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Okay.

[Steve]

The trigger pull event. This event consists of raising a handgun and squeezing the trigger six times with each hand. The time limit is 7.1 seconds.

[Jillian Mazavali]

You have to do both hands in 7.1 seconds.

[Steve]

Yeah. Like, one at a time.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Okay.

[Steve]

Like, what if you're like, I'm a lefty. I have to do whatever. I'm not. I'm not doing any of this.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah. I think we're okay.

[Steve]

Number three is the separation event. This event simulates tasks that require separating one party from another and controlling the individuals.

[Jillian Mazavali]

You are making this up.

[Steve]

Screenshots, girl.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Oh, my God.

[Steve]

Such as crowd control situations. You. The candidate will be required to pull a hanging bag backward, touching it to the ground, basically dragging someone to the ground, which, actually, I'm using. I'm getting a little ahead of myself because that time limit is 14.2 seconds. What do these point to?

[Jillian Mazavali]

That's a good question.

[Steve]

Number four, the dummy drag. Where this event simulates dragging a victim.

[Jillian Mazavali]

They grab me, and they have to drag me across a field.

[Steve]

Candidates will be required to drag a dummy over a straight course. This time limit is 11 seconds.

[Jillian Mazavali]

I just want a shirt that says dummy, and they're just dragging me across.

[Steve]

11 seconds over a thing. So basically, can you shoot a gun?

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Steve]

Can you run a little bit? Can you shoot a gun? Could you pull someone to the ground and then can you drag them when they're pulled to the ground?

[Jillian Mazavali]

Can you separate fighting parties? I mean, can you separate drunk people at a bar and look, cops. I'm not belittling your work. It is very important.

[Steve]

I think there should be a lot more than this. I think there should be courses in criminal justice and, like, racial history. I think there should be a lot more to that.

[Jillian Mazavali]

I absolutely agree.

[Steve]

You think Colombo is doing the dummy drag? Absolutely not. No, he doesn't need it.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Of course not. He's Colombo.

[Steve]

So Sandra became a teacher's assistant with a new goal of going to nursing school.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Steve]

So it's December 2020, two months before Sandra's murder.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Sandra announces that she's pregnant.

[Steve]

Very happily.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Very happily. She's been trying. She's pregnant now. This is where we get a little bit of, like, Sandra's, like, inappropriate oversharing.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Cheryl says Sandra was an oversharer. She was used to her revealing personal.

[Sandra Birchmore's Therapist]

Detail, basically, that her boyfriend, who is currently in a relationship with children, the plan was that he was going to leave that relationship.

[Narrator/Reporter]

She's telling you all this in this baby announcement meeting?

[Sandra Birchmore's Therapist]

Yes.

[Jillian Mazavali]

But he's gonna leave that relationship, and she Tells this to Cheryl, her boss, all at once.

[Steve]

Yeah. And so I'm. This is happening because Sandra has been forced to keep quiet about this. This guy.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yes.

[Steve]

For a really, really long time. And now that she's pregnant, Sandra's like, oh, yeah, I can tell people, but kind of. Because she doesn' Anyone to know the name of the father.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Steve]

And then we hear from her cousins, who today don't want their last names used.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah. Justina and Antoinetta.

[Steve]

So they say that they saw Sandra a week before her murder. They went to breakfast, they went to the diner. Sandra was about two months along in her pregnancy. And Sandra tells the cousins that the father of Sandra's baby is married with kids and his wife is pregnant. And Sandra's like, isn't this great? He's leaving all the of that for me.

[Jillian Mazavali]

That's the whole thing where I'm very glad that the cousins were realists about this because they're like, sandra, girl, like, this means you're going to be like, he's not leaving her. Whatever he is telling you not. They never do. And you are going to be raising this kid on your own. And like, Sandra's very happy. Her family is worried about this.

[Steve]

Yeah. And they're saying they're encouraging her. Get out of this while you still can. Also, who is he?

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah. And so many elements of this are concerning, like the fact that, like, she's about to be a very young mother raising a kid on her own, and the fact that she's got to keep this guy's identity a secret and that.

[Steve]

She'S kind of thrilled about it. Like, we're told by everyone that she sees all of this as really good news and that all of the red flags, she's like, yeah, but they're red flags. But not forever because he's totally leaving his whole family and pregnant wife for me. Because she's really. Whatever is happening, Sandra's been locked in for a long time. You can tell she's not seeing clearly.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Well, because as I want to say this, I don't want this to be a. Like, she's been groomed. Like, she's like, sandra has been groomed her whole life. Because it's also just like, then you think about the quality of person that this is that she's talking about. He's a man who's married with kids and a pregnant wife who's been cheating on his wife, who's then going to leave that pregnant wife to be with you. Like, this guy sucks.

[Steve]

So now everyone's like, wait, A second looking back, they're wondering, could this married boyfriend have played a role in her death?

[Jillian Mazavali]

Well, they also get a first name. His first name is Matthew.

[Steve]

Cassandra had a lot of hope and a lot of expectations. And this guy was a secret, like, red flags all over the place.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Steve]

So Chief McNamara says that Sandra was kind of going through it in addition to all of this pregnancy and the secret boyfriend and the messiness of all of that.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah. And Chief, Donna is saying that, like, look, suicide did seem like it was on the table for Donna because she said that Sandra had been struggling with her mental health all of her life.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Just eight months earlier, Stoughton police had responded to an incident.

[Chief Donna McNamara]

She had a family member that was concerned for her well being so possibly.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Threatening to take her own life.

[Chief Donna McNamara]

Yes.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Officers took Sandra to a hospital where doctors evaluated her and determined she was not a risk to herself.

[Jillian Mazavali]

She was fine. Like, she was doing okay. But we can't deny the fact that mental health struggles play a role here. And so the suicide isn't a thing that is completely implausible.

[Steve]

Yeah. Because the doctors at the hospital say that she wasn't a risk to herself or others. And her family's here to say, like, there was a fight, it got bad. They're saying that Sandra mentioned something about suicide in the heat of the argument, but she was really going to therapy. She was working through whatever she had to work through. She was on medication. And even her own therapist, like, Sandra's therapist told Cheryl, her boss, like, I just spoke to Sandra the fright, like, two days ago before she was discovered murdered. Like, she was doing really great because.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Assistant Principal Cheryl reaches out to the therapist. Like, Cheryl is very involved. I was really thinking about, like, not only is she the assistant principal of a school and, like, managing all those kids.

[Steve]

Yeah.

[Jillian Mazavali]

But she's got to now have this relationship for her employees as well.

[Steve]

Yeah.

[Jillian Mazavali]

To the point that she's reaching out. I think the bottom line is everybody knows there's more to the story, no matter what. There's more to the story of Sandra's death.

[Steve]

Yeah. And so on the complete opposite of Dateline being like, did you ever disagree with your parents as a teenager? And now at the bottom, we have. If you were someone you know is in crisis, call the suicide and Crisis Lifeline at 988. Thank you, Dateline.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Thank you, Dateline.

[Steve]

I appreciate that.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Andrea Canning insisted on it. She saw the final edit. She's like, you will put that in or I will walk.

[Steve]

You can have the. Did you ever disagree with your Parents.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Exactly.

[Steve]

But I need this.

[Jillian Mazavali]

I am Andrea Canning. I demand this.

[Steve]

So who the hell is this Matthew guy? We know he's married. He has kids. His wife is pregnant. Oh.

[Narrator/Reporter]

He was also a police officer. And not just any police officer. He worked for Stoughton pd, The very same department that ran the Explorers program and had been such a big part of Sandra's life from ages 13 through 18.

[Steve]

Oh, he's a cop? Yes, for Stone PD. The same department that ran the program that Sandra was in from from ages 13 to 18.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Like, that's crazy. Cousin. This is where cousin Angelique enters the chat. She really takes this and runs with it. She does her own investigation. Basically, she Google's, like, officer Matthew Explorer program. Right. And she gets his name. It's Matthew Farwell.

[Steve]

Right. He's a detective. He's been with the department for, like, 10 years. And then the cousins are like, I'm sorry, what?

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Steve]

So this guy's a Known. Our cousin for 10 years. Years. He's in this, like, really kind of nefarious relationship with her. He's cheating on his wife. They're all, like, all these red flags, and this is the guy at the center of it. Like, something is not right here.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And, like, once again, we have to remember she was in that program from 13 to 18, like, for five years. And when did the dating start? When did the sex start?

[Steve]

When she's 23. He's known her for 10 years.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yes.

[Steve]

Travel down the road Back again, girl.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Helix is back. I got to tell you, this is going to sound fake, but I swear to God it's true. There are days I wake up so grateful that we have a Helix mattress.

[Steve]

And I've had my Helix mattress for years now. I mean, a really long time. And I never go back. I'm not kidding. Even last night, I was at dinner with my parents. They were complaining about their mattress. I told them about Helix. They were on the website this morning.

[Jillian Mazavali]

I used to have terrible back pain when I woke up in the morning. I used to get super hot in the middle of the night. Those were my two major sleeping factors. Completely gone, like, from day one of how having my Helix.

[Steve]

Yeah. And Mike used to wake up with, like, some, like, lower back issues, but not since the Helix. It's awesome.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And listen, improving your sleep quality is, like, the best way to improve your life. When I get a solid, like, seven to eight hours on my Helix, I sleep like the dead. I wake up, and I'm literally bouncing out of bed. Like, I. It's almost Annoying the good mood I'm in in the morning.

[Steve]

I know, because you have slept well, you're rested, you're ready to go. It sounds cheesy, and I know it's like an old trope for a reason, but it really like a good night's sleep affects the entire rest of your day and everyone around you, honestly.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Correct. So, fam, get yourself a Helix, but only if you want to sleep great and love your mattress. To do that, you go to helixsleep.com TCO for 25% off site wide. That's helixsleep.com TCO For 25% off site wide.

[Steve]

Yeah. And make sure you enter our show name after checkout so they know that we sent you. That's helixsleep.com/tco. So cousin Angelique calls the police, and she calls the state police detective unit, and they have taken over the case. Now, John Fanning is the lead investigator on this case, if that name is familiar.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Is he a Karen Reed guy?

[Steve]

Remember former trooper Michael Proctor?

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Steve]

So this guy was former trooper Michael Proctor's boss. He was in that text thread.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Michael Proctor was the piece of shit. Was he the one that was texting like, no, no.

[Steve]

Ass. No.

[Narrator/Reporter]

This.

[Steve]

No.

[Jillian Mazavali]

About Karen Reed within hours of her being arrested.

[Steve]

John Fanning's this guy's boss.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Like, just remind you, the Proctor guy was going through Karen Reid's phones looking for news.

[Steve]

And then John Fanning got a lot of shit because he was in this text thread and did nothing about it.

[Jillian Mazavali]

I mean, these are the kind of cops that are working the beat in Canton and Stoughton. Like, we need to evacuate the town. We got to get everybody out. We got to burn it down and start the fuck over.

[Steve]

Right? So Michael Proctor, former trooper, morally corrupt Michael Proctor. This is John Fanning is above him. So John Fanning is now leading. We know he's corrupt. He is now the head of the Sandra Birchmore investigation. And so cousin Angelique tells John Fanning everything. She calls him up, thinking that she's being helpful. And this is no shade to cousin Angelique. But, like, don't do this, because cousin Angelique calls, saying, like, you need to know about this. Like a cop. This guy, his name is Matthew Farwell. My cousin was pregnant. Like, they met when she was 13. Like, something is horrible. You got to look into it. Don't do this. And cousin Angelique, I know you were trying to do the right thing. I hear you. I get what your instinct is.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Steve]

But everyone listening, do not ever call the cops directly. And tell them them bad shit about other cops.

[Jillian Mazavali]

But can you call the internal affairs unit? Is there a way to do that? Who should they call? What does she do?

[Steve]

I would call a lawyer first. I know lawyers are really expensive. I would never, yeah. Go to law enforcement about law enforcement. I just would.

[Jillian Mazavali]

I mean, especially in this fucking town.

[Steve]

Like, you can't do that. And we, we. This is yet another example of why we should never do that. Go to somebody else first. Call a lawyer. I don't know a free. I don't. I know it's expensive.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Free lawyer.

[Steve]

Like, or you know, like get a consultation. You know, like call someone that'll do like a consultation with you or something to be like, this is what I have. Like, who is a safe person to call? Do not call law enforcement and tell them something bad about law enforcement. Don't do it.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Right. Because like, as we're going to see the COVID up upon cover up, you're basically giving Angelique, once again, we're on your side. You did everything right. But like you're giving them the information for the COVID You should be able.

[Steve]

To do this, but you can't.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yes.

[Steve]

Because cousin Angelique then goes on social media asking for help, encouraging people to call John Fanning, Michael Proctor's boss, and tell them everything. And it's like this made me so anxious because you should be able to post on social media.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Right.

[Steve]

You should be able to have conversations with cops about bad cops.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Steve]

But as we've learned, you can't.

[Jillian Mazavali]

But and also what you put on Facebook was like, do you have any information on Sandra's death? And Angelique is like, I couldn't find a single person in her life who would think that she was suicidal. They're getting the information together to say like, this isn't right.

[Steve]

Because the response to that face is, is that something bad happened.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Because she'd had an ultrasound, called a baby photographer and was planning a big reveal on Facebook.

[Chief Donna McNamara]

She was going to announce the pregnancy on Valentine's Day.

[Narrator/Reporter]

In their minds, the answer was clear. Sandra's death was the result of foul play and Matthew Farwell was somehow involved.

[Cheryl Carlson]

My gut was telling me that her pregnancy was a ticking time bomb for. For him.

[Steve]

She was going to announce the pregnancy on Valentine's Day. And the minute I heard that, I said, well, that's a ticking clock. Yes. A countdown for this Matthew Farwell to get his act together or come clean to his wife or whatever. That's a threat.

[Jillian Mazavali]

It's unbelievable to me, the propensity for actually Fudgeing. Killing people that these people have.

[Steve]

Yeah.

[Jillian Mazavali]

That, like, actually killing her was an option for this?

[Steve]

Well, for cops, of course, because they'll get away. They know how to get away with it.

[Jillian Mazavali]

It's crazy. People think that's us. People think because of our jobs that we can kill people and get away with it.

[Steve]

No way.

[Jillian Mazavali]

We aren't cops. No.

[Steve]

And you know how the cops interview Matthew Farwell in a school parking lot? Not recorded. That John Fanning guy, Proctor's boss, just was like, hey, Matt, can I ask you a couple questions in the parking lot? Didn't record any of it. Didn't make a record. Nothing.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Answer me.

[Steve]

This is the very official.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Is it handled this way because they want to be covered for if they do something wrong eventually, or is this just like. I don't understand this. It's what I've said about Daisy a thousand times. Daisy kills somebody, I'm taking her to the police station. If I'm a cop, and I know that a cop has done some shit, I'm turning him in. Aren't we all here today to do good people, to serve the community? Like, you know what I mean?

[Steve]

No. Like, our personal feelings aside. Like, no. As we've learned, in my opinion, what the numbers show me are that cops will always protect other cops. And even if the motivation is, well, I don't want to be the outlier.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Steve]

Like, even if, like, I want to do the right thing, I'll be ostracized. I can't do that. I can't turn on.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Look, it's one thing to be like, I saw that cop steal the cocaine from the evidence locker. I'm not going to say anything or I'll cover for him. It's another thing to be like, he killed this young woman and her unborn child. Well, to me. And now I'm going to cover for. That's insane.

[Steve]

Because it's much bigger.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah. Because it's not.

[Steve]

It's more than. And I'm. I'm saying this with all the respect to Sandra Birchmore. It's much bigger than this one case. It goes much deeper and much farther. And I think for decades, is my personal opinion.

[Jillian Mazavali]

I can't imagine becoming a cop and being like, now I've got to keep my friend's murder covered up. Like, the fact that my friend killed this woman, it just. It's absolute insanity.

[Steve]

I know.

[Jillian Mazavali]

But it also seems like it's a real epidemic here. Like, somebody needs to go into these, like, police departments in these towns and fudgeing clean house.

[Steve]

Well, this seems like a good time to remind everyone. A lot of people like to hide behind the. Like, it's just a few bad apples.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Uh huh.

[Steve]

I urge you, I beg of you, finish the rest of that. What is it an idiom?

[Jillian Mazavali]

Sure.

[Steve]

One bad apple spoils the barrel.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Steve]

Do you know what I mean? If you have. What? It's all bad.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Do you see my eyes? I think it's the bunch.

[Steve]

I thought it was the bunch too, and then I googled it and apparently originally it's.

[Jillian Mazavali]

It was originally the barrel.

[Steve]

I was like, oh, bunches a bunch reminds me of bananas. But still, like one bad thing ruins the banana, spoils the whole thing. So don't come to me about a few bad apples because you're only saying half the sentence. Yeah, it's a good reminder that this is a systemic issue. And how many fucking bad apples are we gonna talk about? We've been doing this for years, but.

[Jillian Mazavali]

It just, it seems like we've identified one hive of real bad corruption that like the Karen Reid case and the Sandra Birchmore case happening at the same.

[Steve]

Time with the same people, with the same people.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Like, somebody needs to go in there and fix this. Maura Healey Lesbian Governor, Massachusetts. I love you. Do something about this.

[Steve]

This is what I'm saying.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Stop watching the Lilith Fair talk more and go fix this.

[Steve]

Well, Michelle the journalist is here and she says that in this like quote, interview, which again was a conversation with a friendly ally cop.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Steve]

In a parking lot. Not official at all.

[Chief Donna McNamara]

During this interview, Farwell freely admits that he had had sex with Sandra Bergemore.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Farwell acknowledged that he met Sandra in the Explorers Program when she, she was a teen, but said their affair didn't start until she was 22 and lasted less than a year.

[Jillian Mazavali]

The affair didn't start until she was 22, and then it lasted less than a year.

[Steve]

And they only slept together two or three times. First of all, that's a lie. But meeting her, it's still. Sleeping with her at 22 when you, when you've known her since she's 13 is fucking weird.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Well, but that's. Power dynamics are power dynamics forever. Not to mention the fact that even if he didn't know her, he's a cop. Right. You know, of course.

[Steve]

So he says the last time they had sex was October of 2020, and two months later Sandra told him that she was pregnant and that he was the father. And he's like, well, I'm not the father. The timeline doesn't match up. Sandra is problematic. She's sleeping around. The father could have been any number of men. But then he also says that the last time he saw Sandra was the night of the big snowstorm to break it off. And I'm like, but I thought the last time you had sex was in October. So why are you going over there in person four months later?

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah, but he has to admit to the fact that he saw her that night, because we're going to find out. He was on camera and he knows it.

[Steve]

Yeah. And already it's like, okay, so the last time you had sex was in October, yet you're going over in person four months later? Like, that doesn't make any sense, bro.

[Jillian Mazavali]

No, I mean, and that's like, how much of his story even needs to make sense at this point, you know?

[Steve]

So his story is, yep, four months. We had sex in October. Four months later, I go to break it off in person, demanding he's not the father. They have a big argument, and then he left. And so all of Sandra's cousins are like, yeah, that doesn't really add up.

[Jillian Mazavali]

It's important to note the night of the nor' easter was the. The day that school got let out, and then nobody saw Sandra again until school reopened. Yeah. I mean, but they didn't. I mean, like, that's when they found her body. So, like, he's literally right now in this conversation admitting to being at least one of the last people to see her alive.

[Steve]

Oh, for sure. You know, and so cousin Angelique is like, yeah, I don't know about that, because Sandra's an oversharer.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Her cousin, the oversharer would have told.

[Cheryl Carlson]

Someone if the love of her life came to her house and broke up with her.

[Narrator/Reporter]

You bet.

[Cheryl Carlson]

There would have been lots of phone calls and lots of text messages from Sandra to her loved ones to talk about it.

[Steve]

She would have told somebody.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And, like, nobody heard from her all weekend. So what. What I think this cop is saying, his. His story is, I went over there, we broke up, she was so sad that she then killed herself, and that's why nobody heard from her. But, like, bro, you were in the room, and. Yes, I said, bro.

[Steve]

Yeah, but the thing is, Sandra does seem to be keeping a lot of secrets. Like, she just told her cousins about this guy. She didn't want to give him his name.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yes.

[Steve]

Like, now people are, like, trying to just make sense of this life of hers. Because she was an oversharer. Yeah, she had all of these plans for the pregnancy, but yet, like, she couldn't Tell anyone his name. Like, what's going on here?

[Jillian Mazavali]

And also, it's just like, she would not have got, like. Like, Angelique is saying she would not have silent if this had gone down like that. There had been a big fight. She would have been blowing up everybody's phone all weekend.

[Steve]

Yeah. And Sandra's family, they find a broken flamingo necklace in Sandra's room. And she wore that necklace all the time. And the photo they used to show us the necklace of, like, Sandra wearing the necklace in the wild.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Steve]

Is Sandra. And some faceless cop.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Steve]

With his arm around her. She looks 12 years old, and she is wearing the necklace.

[Jillian Mazavali]

It's just horrible. And the fact that the necklace is broken, the aunt says to me, that sounds like signs of a struggle. Like, that is obviously a sign of a struggle.

[Steve]

Right. And so the family's like, hey, like, again, trying to be helpful. They are not wrong for doing this. The corrupt police are wrong. But the family's like, hey, you should have this necklace. Like, this is really valuable evidence. So they hand it to the state police. The same corrupt state police from the Karen Re trial travel down the road. Back again, girl.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Cornbread hemp is back. Look, I got to talk about the seltzers, because I've been saying it. We had a big party the other night, and we put out the regular booze, but we. We also put out our cornbread hemp THC seltzers. They were the first to go. Nobody is drinking booze anymore.

[Steve]

Yeah. I don't know if kids still say it me, but, like, it me, I am loving these THC seltzers.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And I gotta tell you, they are not only delicious, but they are low calorie. I do think that's a big draw. We're talking 30 calories in 5 grams of sugar made with pure THC and all natural ingredients. So no synthetics, which means no hangover. Like, this is a game changer.

[Steve]

Yeah. And each can has 5 milligrams of THC, which is honestly, in my opinion, the perfect amount. So you don't feel, like, couch locked or paranoid. You're just unwinding. You're kicking back, you're enjoying the moment.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yes.

[Steve]

You don't need alcohol. You don't have a hangover. I love it.

[Jillian Mazavali]

I will just tell you that one of your favorite RuPaul's Drag Race queens was downing these things. I won't name names. She loves them, though.

[Steve]

Oh, my God. Okay, Like, I didn't. Like, I needed another reason.

[Jillian Mazavali]

I know, I know. But listen, it's perfect for unwinding, kicking back, enjoying the moment without alcohol or a hangover. You know you've been wanting to drink less. Everybody give cornbread hemp seltzers a try.

[Steve]

Yeah. Their flavors are amazing. Blueberry breeze, Peach iced tea, Raspberry limeade. Salted watermelon. That salted watermelon. Don't sleep on it.

[Jillian Mazavali]

I know.

[Steve]

Pass it over to me.

[Jillian Mazavali]

So, fam. Right now, TCO listeners can save 30% off their first order and enjoy free shipping on orders over 75 bucks.

[Steve]

Head to cornbreadhemp.com and use code TCO at checkout.

[Jillian Mazavali]

That's cornbreadhemp.com TCO code TCO.

[Steve]

Cornbread hemp. This is the good life.

[Jillian Mazavali]

It really is.

[Steve]

You know what? I agree.

[Jillian Mazavali]

The medical examiner's office has done the autopsy.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Angelique called the medical examiner's office and spoke with one of their investigators.

[Cheryl Carlson]

They said there was no signs of broken bones or the body being battered or bruised.

[Jillian Mazavali]

There's no signs of her having been battered or bruised. And that's why they've ruled this a suicide.

[Steve]

Right.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Are you going to tell us about the medical examiner now?

[Steve]

It's just the same one from the Karen Reid case.

[Jillian Mazavali]

I mean, unbelievable.

[Steve]

But this means the case is closed.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yes, exactly.

[Steve]

Very convenient. Right.

[Jillian Mazavali]

So a few weeks later, the state police call Angelique. They're weirdly updating the family a lot.

[Steve]

I think, to say nothing we can do.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah. Because they say that they requested the second interview with Farwell and a DNA sample. His attorney politely declined. I mean, why are they calling to tell her that?

[Steve]

Probably. I mean, she shows their work. Yeah, I guess.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Steve]

So Chief McNamara now jumps into action because she's like, wait, wait, wait, wait. This Farwell guy, she goes, he's one of my officers. Something is wrong here. And she says, like, she's got to do the right thing. Because regardless of anything else, the sexual relationship is extremely troubling based on how and when this guy met Sandra.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yes. And once again, Donna knows her. You know what I mean?

[Steve]

Right.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Which. And all I'm saying by that is that she know, like, I think that Donna feels like. Like Sandra' not the kind of person who would go to suicide in a situation like this. So the. The benefit of Sandra having been in that Explorers program and all, like, at least Donna knows her. Furthers this investigation happening.

[Steve]

Is this indicative of a bigger problem? These men have been around a lot of 13 year olds and over the last several years, over a decade. So, like, what's. Is there something else to Uncover here.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Oh, my God. And God bless Donna. Being the woman in the position to launch the investigation, must be fucking hell for her.

[Steve]

Yeah.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Being a woman in these two towns, being the chief as she is now. I mean, the fact that she got there, a woman over these other men just. It tells you the kind of person that she is.

[Steve]

And I'm not. I think she's awesome. I'm not tone policing, but, like, she's not happy to be here telling the story. This. This hurt her a lot in a lot of ways that she had to do it.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Steve]

How it all plays out at the end, like, this is not fun for her.

[Jillian Mazavali]

No. But I really believe that she is here to say, yes, we fucked up.

[Steve]

Yeah.

[Narrator/Reporter]

So she leapt into action with an investigation of her own. Your internal affairs investigation revealed a bombshell about what else was going on in Sandra Birchmore's life.

[Chief Donna McNamara]

Yes, it did.

[Steve]

Chief McNamara puts her deputy in charge, and she also hires private investigators, which to me is like, oh, she knows she can't trust the other cops, which is insane 100%.

[Jillian Mazavali]

But they get good shit. Donna gets Farewell's phone data and Sandra's phone and laptop data. They literally give us, like, we could not believe what we were seeing. Remember, his story is they had sex once or twice when he was drunk. He's not the father of the kid. It was a very good, casual thing. They find tens of thousands of text.

[Steve]

Messages between Sandra and the cop between 2019 and 2022. 32,709 texts between the two of them. That's an average of 30 a day.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Oh, my God.

[Steve]

I'm going to say that again. 32,709 texts between 2019 and 2022.

[Jillian Mazavali]

We learned that it takes them more than a year to comb through the text messages and put together all the information.

[Steve]

30 a day. This guy's married with kids, a pregnant wife, and he met. He's grooming her.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah. And we learned through these text messages that on multiple occasions, while Farewell was on duty, they were having sex.

[Steve]

Now, doesn't that sound like. Again, this automatically made me think of. Again. Michael Proctor.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Steve]

He was fired because, remember, the investigation found that he was hammered, on duty, driving his police vehicle, drunk on duty. Like, this is a trend.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Why is it so lawless?

[Steve]

Because they're cops. Because it can be, but.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah, I get that. But it's not everywhere. You know what I mean? Like, it feels, like, so specific to this area, and I would imagine that it, like, it breeds. You know, like, oh, look. Look what my brother Gets away with as a cop. Let me go be a cop and do the same thing to me.

[Steve]

I think it is everywhere. I think it is, like. I don't think it's like, oh, there's something in the water in Canton. I think we have all eyes on this case.

[Jillian Mazavali]

I don't think it's an outlier, but this seems extreme.

[Steve]

It's pretty big. Like, you know, worth discussing the similarities between Karen Reed and John o' Keefe and this when there are so many. The same agencies.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Steve]

The same medical examiner, the same bosses, the same this, and we're not done with the similarities.

[Jillian Mazavali]

My God.

[Steve]

So the texts show that Sandra was in a sexual relationship with another officer in that same department. And it's not just another officer.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Matthew's twin brother, William Farwell.

[Chief Donna McNamara]

There was text messages asking her to take pictures of herself and video herself. It was pretty sick.

[Narrator/Reporter]

The twins are sharing sandra sexually. Chief McNamara says there were also Facebook messages they believed were written by a third Stoughton police officer.

[Jillian Mazavali]

There's also text messages asking Sandra to take pictures and videos of herself. Yeah, it's obvious. Sexual exploitation.

[Steve]

And again, they met her when she's 13. Yeah, there's a. There's a third piece of shit cop involved. His name is Robert Devine. I got. I Googled Divine antonym because I wanted to be like Divine. More like. So I got. Mortal. No, mundane. Dreadful. Yeah, dreadful seems right.

[Jillian Mazavali]

But.

[Steve]

And then it made me think of. Do you know that famous Judge Judy antonym?

[Jillian Mazavali]

No.

[Steve]

Okay, so there's a very famous, like, TikTok sound now that's going viral. You know, like the name and the phone number of a friend.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Steve]

That same line of questioning.

[Jillian Mazavali]

This guy. That same guy.

[Steve]

No, in this, like, the same. The quote is from the same thing where this guy refers to himself as a boy toy.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've seen this.

[Steve]

And she's like. I look at you, and if I. If I had to put a picture in the dictionary next to what a boy toy looks like, you would be an antonym. And then she goes to describe to, like, mansplain what an antonym is. And so it just made me think of, like, my. My brain went from, like, what's an antonym of divine?

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Steve]

To then Judge Judy antonym. So anyway, we have, like, the two piece of shit cops, the twins, and this, like, human antonym.

[Jillian Mazavali]

It's just. It's the kind of thing where you realize, as we've been saying, that these officers met her because these are the officers who are running the Explorer program.

[Steve]

This Robert Devine, the human antonym, was the head of the Explorers Program, and these two fucking twins were under him.

[Jillian Mazavali]

I mean, this is absolutely insane. These young kids, these young girls that are going into this program, and they've been grooming them this whole time. And the quote sharing and the. All I can imagine is what saying to each other about her when she's not around.

[Steve]

Well, because Chief McNamara says, like, first of all, they are absolutely using this program to groom children.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yes.

[Steve]

Argue with the wall.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Steve]

But Chief McNamara says it's just horrific.

[Chief Donna McNamara]

To find this information about people that are supposed to be protecting others. They dehumanized her in their text messaging and their interactions, and it's. It's vile.

[Steve]

They dehumanized her in the text about her. And I'm like, that sounds awfully familiar, too. Former trooper Michael Proctor.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yes.

[Steve]

That was the same word we were using a lot in our coverage of John o' Keefe and Karen Reed. Dehumanizing.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Right.

[Steve]

And that's what Alan Jackson was saying a lot in the case. Like, the way they're talking about these people.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Steve]

And like, Sandra Bushmore as a child and the way they're dehumanizing her in these texts. Like, what are you doing over there, Canton?

[Jillian Mazavali]

I know that Karen Reid, she's such a complicated care. All I can think about now is, like, I know we love Karen. Wait, do we. No, wait.

[Steve]

We didn't. Wait, I can't remember.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Like, there's all of this horrible stuff did happen to her. We will never really know what really happened. How John o' Keefe really died. But she's also crazy.

[Steve]

But, like, the patterns are really eerily similar here.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Well, and I think my point in saying that she's crazy is. And I'm using that word loosely, please don't yell at me. But I think that it's easy to overlook the abuse of power because she's such a complicated character. Right.

[Steve]

Like, these are patterns that need to be discussed and investigated on a major scale. Everyone feels real comfortable doing the same shit.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Steve]

It's all on duty. It's all the same group of people. It's all in writing. It's all via act.

[Jillian Mazavali]

These are the cops whose salaries your tax dollars are paying for while they're fucking kids in cars on duty.

[Steve]

On duty. Or just like the medical examiner, like, just saying what the easiest way to close the case. Like, it's all the same players here.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Steve]

But it gets worse, everybody, because this Matthew Farwell piece of shit started raping Sandra Birchmore when she was 15 years old and he was 27. They call it a sexual relationship. But I'm not going to sanitize.

[Jillian Mazavali]

No. And I would like everybody to remember here that we spent five minutes talking about how sick Sandra's mother was when she was a kid. These groomers look for these types of situations. A kid who's having a kind of a hard time at home, whose parent can't be omnipresent, whose parent hand delivers them to their abuser because they think that they're doing something good for their kid.

[Steve]

And so that's why when I say this was built to groom kids, it's like, oh, do you have someone who needs a little bit of discipline, who's gonna be put in a position where, like, you listen to the cop and you do what the cop says.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yes.

[Steve]

And now what are they gonna go home and tell their mom that they're not having a good time at the place? The things. You know what I. It's a mess.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yes, of course. And it's.

[Steve]

And it's designed to be a mess.

[Jillian Mazavali]

It really. When you think about the grooming and how intentional it is. Like, Donna uses the word sick over and over and over again. And it is absolutely true, because to me.

[Chief Donna McNamara]

Because she says, if Sandra was alive, there would be charges for statutory rape. Aggravated statutory rape. He controlled her. He was. He was grooming her. And it was a. Abuse. At the worst level, if Sandra was.

[Steve]

Alive, there would be charges for aggravated statutory rape. And I'm like, why can't it happen now that she's dead? Because to me.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Right.

[Steve]

The rapes and the murder are absolutely connected.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Well, it's the thing where. That we learned with the Robert Durst case, which is like, you know, they got him for murder, but then he died before the trial was over or whatever it was. Or after they convicted. No, they. He died before the trial was over, so he never got convicted of the murder or whatever. I'm getting that wrong. But when you die, the charges get dropped. They. You are no longer able to be charged with a crime.

[Steve]

It's crazy.

[Jillian Mazavali]

It really is. Especially when it comes to kids. Especially when it comes to people in power who are dealing with children like the electric chair.

[Steve]

When they're absolutely connected.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yes.

[Steve]

Do you know what I mean? Like, his repeatedly raping her and his twin brother raping her and the head of this Explorer, like, and her murder are all connected.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Right.

[Steve]

There's no way. Like, that's just. That's not my opinion. That's a fact.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Steve]

As far as I'm concerned.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Steve]

So Chief McNamara says in no uncertain terms, like this Farwell guy, he's a predator. He was controlling her. He was grooming her. And she says he was abusing Sandra at the worst level.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And then we learned that the plan, of course, was to fire this guy, but he's able to quit before that happens.

[Steve]

And then Stone PD tells the twin brother and the human antonym that I'm calling him now, they're told about the investigation, and they're also, quote, allowed to resign. And this is why I'm like, when we say burn it all down, this is why.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Right.

[Steve]

Because it's still protecting these people. Like, this is what I mean. Like, the few bad apples spoil the whole thing. Like, what do you mean?

[Jillian Mazavali]

You can say barrel. I'm not mad at barrel.

[Steve]

Because you want to say bunch. I've never heard a bunch of apples.

[Jillian Mazavali]

It's pronounced nor easter. One bad apple ruins the whole nor'. Easter.

[Steve]

That it's the N O R apostrophe, Right?

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like how I can't. I'll never be able to tell. Or d'. Oeuvres.

[Steve]

There's a lot going on. There's a lot of stuff reversed that you think wouldn't be diverse.

[Jillian Mazavali]

It's. But then there's.

[Steve]

Where's the apostrophe?

[Jillian Mazavali]

I don't. I have to look it up. Every single. I just say appetizers.

[Steve]

Are there two apostrophes?

[Jillian Mazavali]

No.

[Steve]

Is that allowed in two words? If it's two different words.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Oh, I guess so. I don't know.

[Steve]

I think it's hor. If you're. If you were to say it phonetically, I think it's hor D uvres. Right.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Okay, sure.

[Steve]

That helps you.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Steve]

I'm not writing it. I think you could say hors d'. Oeuvres. I don't think anyone's gonna be like, spell it. I think you' allowed to say it.

[Jillian Mazavali]

I know, but when I've had to order catering for parties, that's when you run into it, and it's a real.

[Steve]

Nightmare if you say hors d' oeuvres in the wild and someone says spell it, then you say you don't get.

[Jillian Mazavali]

To have any and you're not invited to the party.

[Steve]

Yeah. Bye. Go home.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Get out of here.

[Steve]

What do you wear for Ken PD like, Jesus Christ. So 2022, after 19 months, Chief McNamaras investigate, her personal investigation concludes. And she does something almost unheard of.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yes. She goes public, the report is redacted, and she goes and stands in front of the microphones and tells them all.

[Chief Donna McNamara]

All three men, the Fowler Brothers and Divine, violated their oaths of office and should never have the privilege of serving any community as a police officer. The Stoughton Police Department recommends without delay their certification to serve as police officers be permanently revoked.

[Steve]

She says their names. She says they violated their oaths of office. She permanently revokes their ability to serve in law enforcement. And I got to tell you, I read it. It's 45 pages. It's out there. You can read it.

[Jillian Mazavali]

You read the whole thing.

[Steve]

I read it today. It is absolutely disgusting. And I'll get into some more of it. Like, when it gets there, it's a. You can absolutely read it. It's there for you to read. Justice.gov or whatever.

[Jillian Mazavali]

No, thank you.

[Steve]

I don't. Yeah, I don't encourage it. I'll say it as censored as possible. But as bad as you think, these texts, 32,000 texts, they're not puppies and rainbows by any stretch. They're bad. They're as bad as you think they are.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Wow.

[Steve]

And then some.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And the thing is, I'm just going to say this again on behalf parents, I swear to God, we spend half the time trying to raise our kids and half the time from, like, trying to keep our kids getting abused.

[Steve]

Right. And the thing is, this investigation, Chief McNamara's investigation legally wasn't into the death of Sandra Birchmore. It was instead the conduct of the police officers.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Steve]

Which again, well.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And that's because it was ruled a suicide. They are not allowed to investigate this as a murder because it's been ruled a suicide. They figured it out. They solved it.

[Steve]

And she's trying to say. But there's a connection here. Yes, clearly, in these 45 pages, because she says. She says to us, to Andrea Canning, she's on the. The record saying, Sandra did not die by suicide. Matthew Farwell murdered her. Like, there's no way that that is not the case. And so Andrea Canning says also. The disgusting brothers. Hello to my succession. People have never. Because they're fudgeing twins.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yes.

[Steve]

Which is another level of depravity that we aren't really slowing down on.

[Jillian Mazavali]

I know. Because, number one, it's too awful to think about what they actually did to her and what they got her to do. I mean, and then. And then, of course, like I said, to think about what they were saying about her behind her back.

[Steve]

Right. You know, to her yes, like normalizing it since she's 13 years old.

[Jillian Mazavali]

It makes me think about how we're told that when she got pregnant, she was so happy, like, you know what I mean? And that that's also must be part of the grooming, that they, they've convinced her that they're not bad people.

[Steve]

Well, she thinks that this is gonna get him to be with her.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Right. But it's not like, because when you zoom out, you're like, but Sandra, why would you want that? He's awful. And it's all part of the grooming.

[Steve]

Right. So the twins, the Farwell brothers, have.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Never admitted to any wrongdoing, but eventually agreed to a lifelong ban from law. Enfor in Massachusetts.

[Steve]

Eventually, yeah, agreed. Only in Massachusetts. Why do they have so much say in this?

[Jillian Mazavali]

I mean, the union, I'm sure, is a big part of it.

[Steve]

The texts are real.

[Jillian Mazavali]

I know, but you know what I mean, like, it. I don't know. I have no answer other than like you've been saying this happens all the time. We always see this.

[Steve]

Right.

[Jillian Mazavali]

They eventually, they, they never talk, they never give DNA, they never have to do anything. And then they eventually agree to some little thing that makes no real difference.

[Steve]

Right. And Robert Devine, the human antonym, denies everything. His Facebook was hacked. So everything that we read, it was all somebody else.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Oh no.

[Steve]

His Facebook was hacked.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And then they find these lawyers to defend them that take these cases and you're like, how do you sleep at night?

[Steve]

These lawyers tell Dateline to take a walk. There's no way they're sitting down for an interview by. So you'd think this 45 page report would reopen Sandra's case.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Right?

[Steve]

Right. Maybe start a murder investigation. While you would be wrong. No, the state police are not interested. The state police say there's no evidence. The state police are sticking to the medical examiner's report. The same state police and medical examiner in a case you all know about.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yes, but. But that's how they're able to do it. They literally say they were hanging their hats on the medical examiner's report, that it was a suicide. And as long as the suicide is on the books, that's it. They're never going to investigate.

[Steve]

It's hard to go back, it's hard to undo.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Well, there's one way and that's through the media. And this is where the media starts to pay attention. And this is where Michelle from Boston magazine comes back and she's saying media.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Coverage of Sandra's story was growing and a few Reporters were starting to question the state police investigation. Michelle McPhee was one of them.

[Chief Donna McNamara]

Perhaps this woman didn't kill herself at all. There was certainly a number of people who had motive to see her go away.

[Jillian Mazavali]

There are lots of people with lots of motives for Sandra to be gone.

[Steve]

Yeah. And then there are two podcasters. Their podcast is called the Case.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah, Kirk and Dave.

[Steve]

Yeah, Kirk and Dave. They're local to the area and they're looking into the murder of Sandra Birch Moore.

[Jillian Mazavali]

These podcasters in Massachusetts are really like, they're really on it.

[Steve]

After months and months, these guys get the DA's office to turn over something major.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Okay, this I don't understand because I'm assuming they're doing all of the, like, Freedom of Information act requests or whatever, and they don't get police reports, they don't get whatever, but they get surveillance video.

[Steve]

Well, I think so much of it was because now the 45 page document that I read is public. Like, that's what they're basing a lot of this on. So. And it is pretty damning. But what they get is security footage from Sandra's apartment building. And they put it on TikTok. They make a whole episode about it. They put it on their feed and they make a TikTok about it. And it gets like a zillion views.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Well, and what's crazy about this is that like, and somebody makes this point that we don't see anything that we don't know happens. Like, we see Sandra coming and going, cleaning her car throughout the day. That, by the way, is the worst part of living in Massachusetts is having to shovel out your car. And then the, like sitting in the car for five minutes while it warms up. It is brutal up there, Massachusetts. I see you. But she's coming and going. And then we see Matthew arriving at the time that he said he arrived. He was there for 29 minutes and he turned, turns and leaves. And it's like we think we know that he killed her. So, like we're seeing this man enter, go up to her floor, then 29 minutes later, he comes back down. He's wearing a mask, he's got a hoodie on or whatever. Obviously he knows that these cameras are there. But I'm like, he just killed somebody.

[Steve]

Couple things about this. He's enormous.

[Jillian Mazavali]

He's. Well, he's 64 and she's 4 10.

[Steve]

So to see, even on the, the footage, you're like that. He's just a big guy. And I'm sure he's like, all bundled up because of the snow or whatever. But he looks big. He. And he's wearing a Covid mask, so you can't see his face. And I'm like, I'd love to. To know this guy's Covid mask usage.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Oh, totally.

[Steve]

Before and after.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah, we're seeing a lot of COVID masks lately, so people can't see your faces. And I bet these are not the people who were wearing them when we needed to do.

[Steve]

Yeah. So the podcasters, like, post this video. It's all over social media. And so then 2024, out of the clear blue sky, the FBI call Sandra's family.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah. They call Angelique in particular, and they go to talk to her. And, like, this is where Angelique starts to think, okay, like, now we're going to get somewhere.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Two agents came to her house, and she told them everything she. She told the state police.

[Cheryl Carlson]

And they were very clear. Look, you might not ever hear from us again. Or, you know, it could be two years from now, and then you'll hear from us. But don't expect anything anytime soon.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Don't expect anything anytime soon.

[Steve]

And what's weird is that the timing of this is really interesting because the FBI comes knocking in the middle of the Karen Reid trial.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Steve]

And it's like, the same state police force, the same police department, the same da.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Steve]

And, like, here are just a couple of people that you heard us mentioned in our coverage. So this guy, Officer Lenk, he's the guy who claimed that Karen Reed confessed. I did it. I did it. But then never put it in his report.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And we never heard it or saw it on the body cam that he was wearing.

[Steve]

So, like, he's the guy that's coordinating with the state police and the DA's office in both cases. Kind of weird, right? Remember Brian Albert? He owned 34 Fairview. His brother, Kevin Albert, is also part of this investigation.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Wow.

[Steve]

Sergeant John Fanning. That we've talked about the Morley corrupt. Michael Proctor's boss in the text thread about Karen Reed, like, looking for her nudes.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Steve]

He's the guy who spoke to Farwell in a parking lot and, like, just didn't want to make it official.

[Jillian Mazavali]

He was the one that took Farwell to the parking lot.

[Steve]

He's leading this investigation. Not the internal affairs investigation, but, like, there's a lot of stuff here. And something where I was like, why do I know that name?

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Steve]

So remember we just said the 32,000 texts.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Steve]

Which is like, an insane amount. An average of 32 a day for three years or whatever.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Steve]

This Jump Fanning guy said, in writing. It's in the 45 page affidavit, that, like, there was not a sign, not a trace of Sandra Birchmore on this Farwell guy's phone. Like, she doesn't exist at all in the phone. So the same guy who did. Remember we did the whole thing about.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Like, Wait, I'm sorry, you're saying. We know that there were 30,000 texts between them, but this guy is saying these texts don't exist. Yeah. When did he say that? And to who He.

[Steve]

So it's in writing. So the same guy. Remember, we, like, unpacked the whole thing. How long to die in cold?

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah, yeah.

[Steve]

And there was an.

[Jillian Mazavali]

How could I ever forget? That's going on my.

[Steve]

And then you mentioned Durst. I'm like, this is a time machine. We're talking about all these horrible people. But, like, remember the guy who got on the stand and was like, Jim, Jen McCabe's phone is, like, totally clean. Like, we did the extraction. We didn't find anything weird. Oh, yeah, that guy's name is Nick Guarino. Okay, so in this affidavit, Nick Warreno said to this John Fanning guy, I know this sounds like we're in the weeds, but it's going to make sense in a minute that, like, oh, I did a dump on this Farwell guy's phone. There's not a single text between him and Sandra Birchmore. And that's in the affidavit sign. X.O.X.O. john Fanning.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Oh, my God.

[Steve]

Then Chief McNamara is like, can you step aside? Like, can I do my own investigation? And that's when the 32,000 texts appear.

[Jillian Mazavali]

What?

[Steve]

So it's just kind of fucking insane that this guy. In writing. So even if Farwell, let's just say, deleted his whole text thread with Sandra Bartchmore, a full extraction would show those deleted messages. Yeah, in the affidavit. You read it. It's in writing as clear as day. John Fanning. There were no. No text between Farwell and Sandra Bushmore. We are not gonna continue this investigation. And then Chief McNamara comes in, and she's like, actually, there were 32,000 of them, and we got them, and now they're in the affidavit. Isn't that crazy?

[Jillian Mazavali]

How is that legal?

[Steve]

All of the same people in the Karen Reid trial? So when. You know what I mean?

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Steve]

It's really crazy to think, like, when you see it, when I'm, like, reading this affidavit And I'm like, wait, that can't be the same guy who testified for the prosecution. Like, that's crazy, right?

[Jillian Mazavali]

That is crazy.

[Steve]

Yeah. So when you hear about all that, and this is when the FBI starts sniffing around the Sandra Birchmore case with all of these same. I don't know if you're a conspiracy theorist, maybe you don't have to be anymore. But it's like, does the FBI think this is all connected? Does the FBI see the connection between the corruption. I don't know. They haven't told us yet. But it looks like maybe.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Wow.

[Steve]

They're asking, if you're the FBI and you're asking these questions, wouldn't you be asking if maybe you think there's a connection in the corruption? So whatever. In the weeds. All this to say there's a lot of connections between the people in this case, the Karen Re case. Judge Bev wouldn't allow any of the similarities. And Google it. It's there for you to, you know, go down the rabbit hole, if that's something you're interested in.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Steve]

So then Sandra's aunt files a wrongful death suit, obviously, because of this, like, big affidavit that came out. And so now we meet Dr. Michael Bodden, who's a prominent forensic pathologist, and he's here, hired by the family to review that autopsy report.

[Narrator/Reporter]

The summer of 2024, his findings made headlines in the the Boston Globe, concluding what the family had long believed. Sandra's death was a homicide, not a suicide, and she'd been strangled.

[Jillian Mazavali]

He rules that Sandra's death was a homicide, not a suicide, that she was strangled. I'm like, great. Are we reopening the case now?

[Steve]

Well, it kind of changes everything because on October 28, 2024, this Farwell asshole was arrested for the murder of Sandra Bushmore.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Well, then I would just love to know that it is the result of this guy's work for the Civil. Stupid. They never tell us that. But great, here we are. We're going.

[Steve]

Well, I think it helps. But also, Chief McNamara was helping the FBI the whole time, which is this big, like, bump up, like, big reveal that she was sort of like, with us the whole time.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And behind the scenes, of course, because she can't do anything in public.

[Steve]

Right? So here's what the U.S. attorney alleges. That Sandra Birchmore was groomed for years by this horrible program that was meant to help kids. She was raped. She was abused. This Farwell guy used his position as a cop to do this. I Also think that like the other her, his twin and the guy who ran it, that human antonym, like he is also at the head of this because none of this was happening without his acknowledgement at the very least.

[Jillian Mazavali]

It also goes back so far. So like Matthew met her when she was 13. At 15, he's sending her a Facebook friend request. Yeah, that is the thing that we need to talk to our kids about the most. Number one. Number two, he's meeting her at the library after school so he can do homework with her. That was probably a great help to her mother, who was sick and not feeling well. She probably was so grateful that this local cop was so happy to meet her daughter. Moment at the, the library, a public place where he could sit and do the homework. And all the while he's grooming with her. Six months after he sent the friend request, when she was 15 years old, they had sex for the first time.

[Steve]

Yeah. And it's all out there. The text in that 45 page document. I really, I don't recommend reading it, but it really shows what a violent, really like sick, sick, sick person. Like he wished she was younger. Like really bad.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Like, and just in like what they tell us in the episode, he had a history of Chevy choking Sandra. He first introduces to her when she's 16 years old. And they see it in the text messages. He says, I'll choke you. I'll grab your throat. He is the cop that her mother entrusted with her personal safety and like education.

[Steve]

Yeah, it's. And it's all there like that. That's what I mean when it's all these guys being like, oh, I was hacked. Like, no, this is all real. You can't blame like also I'm sure all of these boomers passwords are like password 1, 2, 3.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Should it not be that?

[Steve]

It should not be that.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Well, I've got to go change my password. Everybody hold.

[Steve]

But then here's. Look, this is all very, very, this is no disrespect to Sandra Birchmore. Obviously she was a child when this first happened. But like she was threatening to expose their affair. And so she would be showing him these texts about like, what she's going to be eventually telling his wife. So that whole thing about her, her photo shoot, her like pregnancy photo shoot and announcing it on Facebook. The cousins were right. Like, that was a time bomb.

[Chief Donna McNamara]

He was under increasing pressure. His wife is pregnant. Sandra Berchmore is telling everyone that her baby is his. She wants him to put his name on the baby's birth certificate. Which is a public record that he is the father of this child.

[Steve]

Now, this guy is like, oh, my God. By February 14th, which is two weeks after she was murdered, she's going to tell his wife.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah. And we also learn that 12 days before Sandra was killed, one of her friends calls the Stoughton Police Department to reveal the affair. By the way. Go, friend. Well, I guess not. I guess we're not supposed to do that.

[Steve]

Well, yeah, no, don't. I mean, because what happens is this friend who's trying to do the right thing, being like, I think my friend is like, something bad is happening. The guy who answers the phone.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Steve]

Tells Matthew Farwell, which is shitty for a lot of reasons. But here's two of them. One, it's giving the guy a heads up instead of holding him accountable. Like, how do you get a phone call like that? And then you're just like, oh, let me help the guy, the predator I'm hearing about. But I. In my opinion, anyway, this absolutely led to Sandra's murder.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Well, and what is Internal affairs for? You know what I mean?

[Steve]

Just like, what Chief Donna did. Like, she used it right? But, like. Yeah, and this is why we have all this information, of course.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Like, the person on the outside doesn't know to, like, track Chief Donna down in the parking lot and tell her, as opposed to, like, the shithead that answers the phone.

[Steve]

They never would because they're just going to keep everyone protected.

[Jillian Mazavali]

I mean, and that's the whole thing. It's like, what are you supposed to do when the people who are supposed to be protecting you are the ones that are, like, taking advantage and abusing you?

[Steve]

Yeah. And the affidavit also says, yes, this is absolutely a murder. There's evidence of blunt force trauma, so confirming what the family's pathologist says. And this broken necklace, because Andrea Canning says that it was visible in the crime scene photos, but it was never actually documented in the police reports to the public.

[Jillian Mazavali]

That is such obvious corruption. It's unbelievable.

[Steve]

Yeah. And it's crazy. So, like, I was just thinking about the mask, because we learned the government's.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Affidavit alleged that less than 13 hours after Farwell killed Sandra and her unborn baby, his third child was born. This is quite possible. Possibly one of the craziest parts of this story.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Right. We have a picture of Matt Farwell wearing a mask, holding up his little baby.

[Steve]

So he, just to be clear, dropped his wife off in a hospital where he knew she would never be able to leave and track him down.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Steve]

Killed Sandra Birchmore while his wife was in the hospital about to have a baby, and then was back in time for the, like, it's a boy cigars.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And, like, we see the picture of him holding the baby. He looks. I mean, the look like, you can only see his eyes, but his eyes are. He looks absolutely evil. Like, the man just looks evil. He just murdered somebody.

[Steve]

And I knew that the mask was weird. I didn't know why, but now it makes sense. Because he was at the hospital.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yeah.

[Steve]

With his pregnant wife.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And then we get the shocking news that made me literally scream out loud.

[Narrator/Reporter]

According to three sources familiar with the investigation, DNA testing showed that Matthew Farwell was not the father of Sandra's baby.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Sandra's baby was not his, which was I. I.

[Steve]

Which is, like, half of it is a mind explosion. But then that's like, oh, my God.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Right? Because it's like, she was, like, groomed by so many different men that it could have been any of theirs.

[Steve]

At least three. Like, we don't have any other names. I don't know if there's anyone else involved, but, like, there's at least three people. And when Andrea Canning said that, she was being, like, shared by them. Like, we don't know who it was, but I wonder if it's maybe the human antonym. Because I wonder if the twin brother. Like, that DNA would show up.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Oh, my.

[Steve]

So maybe just, like, ruling it out, maybe it's the human antonym.

[Jillian Mazavali]

I mean, he killed her because she was pregnant with his kid and wanted him to, like, be identified as the father, and it wasn't even his kid.

[Steve]

The rapes and the murders, in my opinion, are. They go hand in hand. Like, that's like, very clear to me. So, like, the patterns here really can't be ignored. But everyone, like, be more like Chief Donna, because I can't believe how many times we said, like, wow, in a shocking twist, she did the right thing.

[Jillian Mazavali]

I know. She's amazing. And we learn in the end that Farwell has pleaded not guilty. He's in the custody of the U.S. marshals Service. No trial date has been set. What are we doing?

[Steve]

I don't. I wonder if the FBI is really trying to put. I mean, I think they're just really trying to build a case here. I wonder if it's, like, a bigger case. I wonder if Chief Donna is going to try to make it bigger to get, like, all of these guys, because, like, a lot of people have to be complicit in something. It's like a symptom. Of a much bigger problem.

[Jillian Mazavali]

It's one of those things we used to always talk about where it's like, it's so exhausting. It makes me just want to go to bed. Like, it feels like such an overwhelming problem in these two towns, and it's like, why even bother try. And now I'm part of the problem.

[Steve]

Like, this is across the board, but, like, something is definitely in the water in this Canton Stoughton area, which is like. And I can't believe that Chief Donna is here and, like, willing to be on Dateline about it. So keep talking, everybody.

[Jillian Mazavali]

And she says, like, one of the last things Chief Donna says when you.

[Chief Donna McNamara]

Put it all together, it is a failure in maybe many, many areas. And we are hopefully working towards justice for her.

[Jillian Mazavali]

We are hopefully working towards justice for her. So good for you, Donna.

[Steve]

You know, she's doing it. I. Not in, like, the shitty way where it's like, keep it up. But, like, no, I really mean, thanks, Donna.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Oh, girl. We did Dateline. What's it called?

[Steve]

This is season 33, episode 87, take that, Survivor. It's called the Betrayal of Sandra Birchmore. And I really appreciate the title of this.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Yes, absolutely, fam. We love you. Join the Facebook group. Follow us on TikTok Instagram. Subscribe on YouTube. Do other things.

[Steve]

We got a lot more of these bonus episodes. Episodes coming your way. So we're just getting.

[Jillian Mazavali]

We've only made six episodes this week. We can make six more.

[Steve]

Oh, my God. I think we're doing, like, a total of 12 recordings in 11 days. I mean, why not, like, 12 episodes? Yeah, 12 episodes in 11 days. We got this.

[Jillian Mazavali]

I wouldn't be anywhere else, you know?

[Steve]

All right, I love you guys.

[Jillian Mazavali]

Bye.

[Steve]

Bye.