479: The Carman Family Deaths

Summary

True Crime Obsessed – Episode 479: The Carman Family Deaths (Netflix Recap)

Release Date: January 6, 2026
Hosts: Patrick Hines, Julian Bethevoli

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Overview

In this gripping and darkly humorous episode, Patrick and Julian unpack the Netflix documentary “The Carman Family Deaths”—a tangled saga of family dysfunction, generational wealth, unsolved murders, and suspicious disappearances shrouded by the unknowable depths of the sea. Through their trademark sassy banter, they explore how the death and disappearance of Linda Carman and her son Nathan’s survival at sea spawned a whirlwind of investigation, family finger-pointing, and questions about neurodiversity, mental illness, and justice.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Carman Family Tragedy: Setting the Scene

• Location: Begins with a 2016 fishing trip off Block Island, Rhode Island, where Linda and her 22-year-old son Nathan go missing.
• Discovery: After an 8-day search, Nathan is found alive in a life raft; Linda remains missing, presumed dead.
• Family Drama: The wealthy Carman dynasty’s legacy is introduced, centering on an iron-fisted patriarch and a fractured group of heirs.

Quote:

• "The ocean is terrifying. I've been saying!" — Julian (02:34)

---

2. Search and Rescue: Nathan’s Survival Story

• The Search: 62,000 square nautical miles searched—unsuccessful for six days, then Nathan found alive on day eight, 100 nautical miles off Martha's Vineyard.
• Skepticism: Coast Guard and cargo ship captain note Nathan’s healthy appearance despite supposedly being adrift for eight days—no severe dehydration or weakness.
• Autism and Perception: Nathan, who is autistic, is matter-of-fact and logical, which police, media, and family often misread as suspicious.

Quote:

• "His autism—the very thing that saved him those eight days is what’s going to be weaponized against him now." — Patrick (12:30)

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3. Early Suspicions and Police Actions

• Strange Behaviors: Nathan leaves bait in his truck, claims a spontaneous 70-mile course change, and oddly fails to radio for help when the boat starts sinking.
• Police Response: Even before Nathan is rescued, his home and car are searched. A damning note is found detailing why he distrusts the police—not specifically tied to the case, but raising investigators’ suspicions.
• Host Commentary: Patrick and Julian find this circular—police interpret standard skepticism as proof of guilt.

Memorable Moment:

• “Generally, the police are corrupt and often criminal.” — Document cited by police (13:45)

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4. Family Dysfunction & Motive: Money is Everything

• The Grandfather: John Chakalos, a real estate tycoon, is described as charismatic, controlling, and abusive. Upon his murder, the sisters inherit $10.5M each, on top of huge monthly allowances.
• Suspicion Within: The Carman sisters immediately blame Nathan for their mother’s disappearance and their father’s murder, cutting ties with him and his father.
• Pattern of Toxic Control: The hosts comment on generational trauma, with abuse and money tied together, making for deep resentment and manipulation all around.

Quote:

• "Charlene, why are you already lying to me, girl? Bad vibes up and down with this one." — Julian (25:36)
• “It was all about getting the money—the whole family’s dysfunction stems from money.” — Patrick (23:35)

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5. Investigations: Grandfather’s Murder & Nathan as Suspect

• The Crime: John Chakalos found executed in bed; no signs of theft, suggesting someone close.
• Nathan’s Alibi: He claims to have left after dinner to meet his mom, but cannot explain a one-hour gap; fails to call his waiting mother.
• Weapon Purchase: Nathan bought a gun with an out-of-state license, lied to police about it, and the gun has never been recovered. Ballistics only partially implicate him.

Quote:

• “Nathan told the cops he does not own a gun, so that, like, he lied to the police about owning a gun.” — Patrick (57:59)

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6. Nathan’s Mental Health: Autism, Trauma, and Isolation

• Upbringing: Nathan is autistic, deeply attached to his horse (his only friend), and becomes dangerously isolated after a series of abusive “tough love” interventions, including a notoriously abusive teen camp.
• Host Critique: The hosts rage at his parents, especially considering their financial means, for sending him to these camps.
• Aftermath: Upon his return, Nathan isolates in a camper and struggles with further mental health crises.
• Money as Control: Despite family rift, Nathan remains bankrolled by his grandfather, who also undermines Linda’s attempts at care.

Quote:

• “Let me tell you something. You have so much money…there are so many other options…But anything that starts with your kid being dragged out of your home–kicking and screaming and sobbing–that’s the beginning. That’s how it starts.” — Julian (45:13)

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7. Life Insurance, Boat Alterations, and Prosecutors’ Theory

• Insurance Claims: Nathan seeks a payout for the sunken boat; insurance discovers he previously sabotaged the vessel by removing critical trim tabs, increasing the likelihood of sinking.
• Drift Analysis: Prosecutors state oceanic drift calculations show Nathan could not have ended up where he did if his story was true. Defense calls this junk science.
• Emergency Supplies: Nathan’s “ditch bag” with a water maker and food, at first pilloried by authorities, is refuted by an autistic expert as “normal” for someone methodical.

Quote:

• “Having a water maker on a boat—it’s just smart! Why aren’t those standard?” — Julian (73:14)

---

8. The Final Act: Arrest, Charges, and Tragedy

• Criminal Case: Nathan is arrested and charged with “murder on the high seas.” Prosecutors allege he kills his mother to secure her and his grandfather’s inheritance.
• Sinking the Raft: When rescued, the life raft sinks almost immediately—prosecutors believe it was deliberate to destroy evidence.
• Nathan’s Death: Awaiting trial, Nathan dies by suicide in jail—no note left behind, further clouding the mysteries.

Quote:

• “Nathan kills himself…that took my breath away. I did not see that coming.” — Patrick (83:03)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Fam, the ocean is terrifying!” — Julian (02:34)
• “You can make your own money…my peace is more valuable than anything.” — Julian (35:06)
• “All of this makes sense. All of this is fine. And it makes sense when you understand later what he’s been through.” — Patrick (15:31)
• “Despite the fact that I think he did it, he should not have been questioned in the way he was.” — Patrick (84:36)
• “Linda Carmen was officially declared dead in October of 2023, and the investigation into her death has been closed.” — Onscreen update (83:55)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:28] The Carman family goes missing at sea
• [05:35] The search for Linda and Nathan begins
• [09:09] Nathan’s rescue and Coast Guard suspicions
• [13:45] The infamous anti-police memo is discovered
• [22:51] Family cutoff: speculation after Linda’s death
• [23:35] Exposé on the toxic Carman family and inheritance
• [39:23] The abusive family legacy and mental health
• [45:00] Nathan sent to a "tough love" camp
• [57:59] Nathan’s gun purchase & lying to police
• [70:36] Feds allege Nathan sabotaged the boat
• [71:56] Theories: did Nathan stage his own survival?
• [83:03] Nathan’s suicide in jail before the trial

---

Tone & Style

The hosts keep the podcast lively with sarcasm and irreverence, but show sensitivity toward neurodiversity and mental health. Their exasperation at family dysfunction and the criminal system’s mishandling of suspects with autism is palpable. They continually call out the human cost of generational trauma and greed.

---

Conclusion

Although the Carman family’s tragedies remain officially unsolved, Patrick and Julian are clear: there’s a mountain of circumstantial evidence against Nathan, but a larger indictment remains—the corrosive power of wealth, the failure to support neurodiverse people, and the way police can misinterpret difference as guilt. The episode closes with both hosts agreeing the story is a “mystery,” but many questions remain—especially about justice for those who don’t fit into the system’s preconceived boxes.

---

Next up: “Homicide Hunter: The Man with No Face” — the hosts tease a new Discovery doc as they sign off with affection for their listeners:
"We love you. Stay safe."

Transcript

[Julian Bethevoli]

I've been blowing my nose a lot today, and I feel like it's going to show up. I feel like I have, like, a Rudolph red nose on the video today.

[Patrick Hines]

It is a little red. It is, right? Oh, it's so cute, though.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Brought to you by New York City Winter.

[Patrick Hines]

When it goes or whatever. It's not with this sound.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Cute. Oh, I love it.

[Patrick Hines]

Hi. Julian Bethevoli. Hello.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Patrick Hines.

[Patrick Hines]

Fam. Check out our Patreon. We've got over 500 full ad free bonus apps. They're so good. Right now we're starting the death in apartment 403 or whatever.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Yeah, we just did Stalking Samantha. I also. I wrote some down because we can never think of any.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, good for you.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Amy Bradley's missing.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julian Bethevoli]

A body in the snow, which is the first trial of Karen Reid.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Fox Hollow murders.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my God. Yes.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Amanda.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my God. Yes. I'm gonna go back and listen to those.

[Julian Bethevoli]

They're good.

[Patrick Hines]

They're really, really good. We're also doing this thing now where sometimes in our after parties, we're giving you, like, follow ups to some of the cases that we're covering.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Yeah. Or deep dives that, you know, rabbit holes we go down or whatever.

[Patrick Hines]

We did that for PI Moms. We did that for the Hannah up case. That was covered in the Vanished in Paradise. It was FAS patreon.com obsessed. Or you can just click on the link in the show notes. We make it super easy for you.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Super easy. We also have a Discord server.

[Patrick Hines]

The Disney. The Disney. Wait, is that how we say it? We have a Discord server.

[Julian Bethevoli]

I know. I googled it today and I was like, is it a channel? Is it a. What is it? But it's like we have a Discord server and then there are channels within the server.

[Patrick Hines]

I love this.

[Julian Bethevoli]

I'm in it all the time, but it's. I'm still new.

[Patrick Hines]

All right, great. That's wonderful.

[Julian Bethevoli]

It's very fun.

[Patrick Hines]

It's like an alternative to the Facebook group. If that's not your jam. But we got the Facebook group, too, so just join them all.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Yeah, girl.

[Patrick Hines]

What are we talking about today?

[Julian Bethevoli]

The Carmen family deaths on Netflix.

[Documentary Narrator/Interviewee]

The ocean carries a lot of secrets.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Linda Carmen and her son Nathan left and never returned from a fishing trip near Block Island.

[Documentary Narrator/Interviewee]

It just gets deeper and deeper.

[Julian Bethevoli]

The freighter spotted Carmen floating alone in a life raft south of Martha's Vineyard. Carmen's mother remains missing and is presumed dead.

[Documentary Narrator/Interviewee]

People thought this poor young man lost his mom at sea. Some of his story didn't add up. Nathan was a firstborn grandson of a Greek dynasty. He was number one in grandpa's eyes.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Linda's father was extremely controlling. When you're a self made millionaire, sure he stepped on a lot of toes.

[Documentary Narrator/Interviewee]

Linda was very protective over Nathan. I think she'd protect him at all costs.

[Julian Bethevoli]

This isn't the first time tragedy has hit the Carmen family.

[Documentary Narrator/Interviewee]

They felt Nathan had murdered his mother and it was grandfather.

[Patrick Hines]

The ocean is terrifying.

[Julian Bethevoli]

I've been saying.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Julian Bethevoli]

And the thing is, I've been saying this is not a hot take, you know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

The thing that you were saying about the aliens, about how the aliens might be living in the ocean. You could be right. That documentary that we're going to cover eventually about the aliens are living. 80% of the ocean is undiscovered.

[Julian Bethevoli]

That's huge.

[Patrick Hines]

And they were saying that like if the aliens are like stockpiling their shit somewhere, it's probably down there.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Probably.

[Patrick Hines]

You know what I mean?

[Julian Bethevoli]

Or the entire universe, which is huge.

[Patrick Hines]

Or that. Or that.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Which. I'm just saying that's one ocean on one planet.

[Patrick Hines]

All I know is that the aliens are here. That's all I know know.

[Julian Bethevoli]

We're like, do people not believe in aliens?

[Patrick Hines]

Well, after. What's the documentary called?

[Julian Bethevoli]

I don't know.

[Patrick Hines]

The Age of Disclosure. And we've, you and I have already talked about it. We're going to figure out how to cover it. We're going to do it. It is insane.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Okay.

[Patrick Hines]

Anyway, back to the Carmen family deaths. We meet Eric from the Coast Guard. We begin in 2016 and he's telling us that the Coast Guard got a call that there was an overdue meaning like a missing or late or hadn't returned vessel in South Kingstown, Rhode Island.

[Julian Bethevoli]

So Nathan Carmen and his mom Linda, they went to an area south of Block island and now they are missing.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, Nathan's 22, Linda's 54. So Linda, the mom's friend, her friend Sharon is here and she's telling us.

[Documentary Narrator/Interviewee]

Like they would go on all these fishing trips and just like any other time, they were going to ship out of Rhode island, the marina there.

[Patrick Hines]

She thought they'd be back the next day around noon.

[Julian Bethevoli]

This trip was no different from any other of their many, many trips.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, she was supposed to call Sharon around 1 the next day. When Sharon didn't get a call, she called Linda at 4. She's not answering. Sharon calls the cops. Get yourself a Sharon. And Linda, you're a nice Sharon, you'd.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Call the cops eas. But Linda also, like, we see the text at 10:54 the night before. Linda's like, oh, leaving the dock. I'll be in contact in the morning. Hope you're having a great weekend. Like, the plans were to speak. So when they don't speak, it's extra weird.

[Patrick Hines]

Makes you wonder later if Linda the mom did that on purpose. Like, just so you know, if I'm not back by this time, it's weird.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Because that's interesting because Saturday. So Linda sends that the night before at 10:54. And then by Sunday at 5:18, Sharon just texts. Should I worry?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, right. I mean, everyone's a little worried. I know. Also, like, you're on a boat in the middle of the ocean. So, like, I would worry even if she's fine.

[Julian Bethevoli]

And it's 5:18, even if they went to lunch. Like, that's. What are you doing?

[Patrick Hines]

There's so much down there that you can't see. That's the whole point of the ocean. I think you know what I mean?

[Julian Bethevoli]

Yeah. Respect it.

[Patrick Hines]

I know. Look, when I go on vacation, sometimes we'll like, go on a boat and I'll be swimming in the middle of the ocean. I'm like, what am I doing? What am I doing?

[Julian Bethevoli]

You hate. I hate open water.

[Patrick Hines]

I don't.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Underwater.

[Patrick Hines]

I like open water, but it's images of dark underwater where you can't see stuff. That really scares the living shit out of me. So when you're swimming, even when you're snorkeling, sometimes when it's too clear, I also don't like it.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Okay, you can't win.

[Patrick Hines]

I can't win.

[Julian Bethevoli]

I think we should just leave the ocean alone.

[Patrick Hines]

I think you're right. You know what I mean? Only go up to your knees and that's it. That's.

[Julian Bethevoli]

I love those stories where it's like, orca, like, stole another surfboard. Otters are like, good.

[Patrick Hines]

I know. I also love seeing the sea.

[Julian Bethevoli]

I know otters are not in the ocean.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm just saying I love watching seals jump onto boats to save themselves from the orcas. And then people speed off with the seals on the boat and then when they're safe, they jump back in. Because I don't want to be with the people either.

[Julian Bethevoli]

It's the circle of life.

[Patrick Hines]

I know. It is sad.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Anyway, Sharon calls the police and they put her in touch with the Coast Guard Guard. And the search is immediately underway. The Coast Guard searched the waters off Block island and then Long island, meticulously combing 62,000 square nautical miles, an area larger than the state of Georgia.

[Documentary Narrator/Interviewee]

We had negative results on day one. After six days, search is called off.

[Julian Bethevoli]

I googled the nautical mile is based on the Earth's longitude and latitude coordinates.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, that makes sense.

[Julian Bethevoli]

One nautical mile equaling one minute of latitude.

[Patrick Hines]

Okay.

[Julian Bethevoli]

You know what I'm saying?

[Patrick Hines]

We're podcasters. We can't be expected to know that. Is this going to be on the quiz?

[Julian Bethevoli]

No.

[Patrick Hines]

Okay. Okay. Thank God. Thank God.

[Julian Bethevoli]

So it's always just like whatever. So after six days.

[Patrick Hines]

That's exactly right. That's the right answer. Yeah. It's always like whatever.

[Julian Bethevoli]

It's a lot of miles and it's scary and terrifying. So after six days, the search is called off and they are missing for eight days.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, on day eight, Nathan is spotted in a life raft 100 miles off the coast of Martha.

[Julian Bethevoli]

100 nautical miles.

[Patrick Hines]

You're right. You're right. You're absolutely.

[Julian Bethevoli]

This is basically like 115 miles.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly.

[Julian Bethevoli]

That's all said that. I'm just saying I get why.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. We're converting like dollars to pounds all of a sudden in here. I can't it. I can't do it, girl.

[Julian Bethevoli]

What am I doing?

[Patrick Hines]

You know what I mean?

[Julian Bethevoli]

Those are things where I'm like, how did this. How did you do this before the Internet?

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Like, those are things where I'm like. I know I'm just like some sheltered idiot, but like that the. Any kind of conversion or something like that is just like the fact that people did it naturally.

[Patrick Hines]

Like long division, like longitude and latitude in general is like what? It's like a graph for the earth. That's cool.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Like, like being able to understand a map. Like, that's amazing.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, Daisy's studying all that in social studies right now and she has quizzes on it, which is why I have to now learn maps again.

[Julian Bethevoli]

REM geography.

[Patrick Hines]

I have to admit, like, I'm taking the test. I have to remember all seven names of the continents. Not today.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Oh, God. We're not doing this.

[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Bethevoli]

Yeah, but choosing the right supplements can be confusing. It's just in general, it's a low trust category.

[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Bethevoli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Bethevoli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Bethevoli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Bethevoli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Bethevoli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Bethevoli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Bethevoli]

Right? So Nathan Carman is found. He's on a life raft. And there's photos and video of the rescue. And Nathan is climbing up this huge ladder onto the ship and he's walking around and it's like, it's crazy to see, you know, like the search was just called off like a day and a half ago and now this guy's here. Like people can't believe it. And we hear the coast guard talking to Nathan, who's just very direct and just like, I need to know what happened. Not like, so glad you're okay. Just I need to know the details of what happened. And where's your mom?

[Patrick Hines]

We're going to learn in a minute though that Nathan is autistic. And so he speaks matter of factly. You know, that's one of the ways that his autism manifests in him. But like he's telling us a little bit about what happened. Like the engine compartment filled with water. There was a funny noise in the engine compartment. I looked and saw a lot of water. Bumps dropped out from under my feet when I saw the life raft. I did not see my mom, have you found her? All of a sudden, he's in the water and, like, he's asking if his mother has been found and she has not. And at this point, she's presumed dead.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Now Clark is Nathan's dad and Linda's ex husband.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bethevoli]

And he says, like, Nathan was very, very upset that he couldn't save his mother. And that was incredibly upsetting to him. And now Nathan isn't here in the doc. We'll get to that later. But we have a lot of footage of him talking about what happened.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And his dad is just saying, like, at this point, like, Nathan just wants to go home and be by himself. Like, Nathan tends to isolate. That's one of the things that he does.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Right. So he does. Nathan does an interview. Interview on ABC News for Nightline.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bethevoli]

And they're asking him, like, how did you survive this harrowing ordeal? And he said, I basically just focused on my survival. He, like, regimented himself. The food pack said to eat four per day. He was spacing them out. Like, he. He is explaining that like, that if you just stay focused.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes. And we'll learn later that he had, like, I guess on boats, like, the smart thing to do is have it if you sink bag. So he had it, like, if you sink bag, which is called something else. It's probably a nautical mile.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Definitely 1.15 miles.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly. But, like, they had, like, fruit packs in it. And he's rationing it out over the day following the instructions of, like, what to do.

[Julian Bethevoli]

And I'm like, right. Like, totally heard. But when did your mom go missing? Because you were out there for eight days.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly.

[Julian Bethevoli]

So when did this happen?

[Patrick Hines]

Right. Have you not seen her since the boat sank or was she on the life.

[Julian Bethevoli]

I heard about the food packs.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Like, they're probably disgusting.

[Patrick Hines]

I can't.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Whatever. But, like, like, that is definitely interesting. We should know about that. We should learn from that. But when exactly did your mom go missing? In eight days is my first question.

[Patrick Hines]

So now we meet Evan. He's a journalist for Wired magazine. He lives in. In New England. He love water. And that's one of the reasons why he was drawn to this story. And, you know, he's telling us that, like, when the captain of the boat that saved what happened was Nathan saw a ship passing and was able to flag them down. This ship saved him. And the. The captain says now he's been on this life raft for eight days. According to Nathan, the captain of the.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Cargo ship that saved Nathan, Carmen, says the 22 year old, seemed healthy when he was rescued and did not appear to be suffering from dehydration, hypothermia, or anything else.

[Documentary Narrator/Interviewee]

Circumstances like this don't happen very frequently. I mean, seven days in a life raft floating at the continental shelf, that does not happen frequently at all.

[Patrick Hines]

Coast Guard Eric is also back. To be, like, a guy floating on a life raft for seven days is unheard of. He's like, never in my entire career have I seen anything like that.

[Julian Bethevoli]

And then what he's saying also is then to be totally healthy when you're rescued. Like, there are things that are just.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Like, to have enough energy to, like, jump into the water, to have enough energy to pull yourself up on that life ring and then, like, walk up the stairs. Like, we'll get more into this later. But, like, you're. But if you've been in a life raft off of your feet for seven days.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

You should have lost a lot of muscular ability.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

You know, but then we're also going to be told that. No, Like, I think your adrenaline kicks in when your life's about to be saved. That makes sense to me, too.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Absolutely. So Nathan's father says that because Nathan is autistic, the thing that helped Nathan survive those eight days is the thing that will be weaponized against him after he was rescued. Which is 100% true.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Also, just a quick note. I did my research. I asked the discord about this. Speaking of the discord.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bethevoli]

On the best words to use. Who's, like, autistic person versus person with autism.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Because I want to. You know, we want.

[Patrick Hines]

You and I had a long talk about this before we started.

[Julian Bethevoli]

So everyone said the same thing in my research and the people that I spoke to personally. The community's divided, and it's all about your personal preference.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bethevoli]

But since Nathan isn't here with us.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Julian Bethevoli]

And we're taking the lead from his father and experts.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julian Bethevoli]

I was told that it's okay to use autistic person and person with autism kind of interchangeably because it's a personal preference.

[Patrick Hines]

Got it.

[Julian Bethevoli]

That's what I learned, and that's what.

[Patrick Hines]

We'Re going to do.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Wonderful. So before Nathan was rescued, the cops got a warrant to search Nathan's house.

[Patrick Hines]

House.

[Julian Bethevoli]

And his car.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm confused on this timeline because they say prior to Nathan returning to his house.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

I went. I actually went back to get exactly what they said because I didn't know if it was before he was found or if it was after he was found. They got suspicious and then they got a warrant for his house.

[Julian Bethevoli]

My question that I wrote down is a warrant to investigate two missing people.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. Because what they find. No. And like that they find documents that are concerning. So this is why I had the question. The document says.

[Documentary Narrator/Interviewee]

This one's titled why I'm reluctant to cooperate with the police. Emotionally. I'm not sure that I can bear another interview. And he goes on to say, philosophically, the idea of proving one's innocence repels me. The next is generally, the police are corrupt and often criminal organization.

[Patrick Hines]

We're going to learn later. Nathan has had extensive experience with the police before this incident with where he went missing with his mother.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

Which explains why this note would exist, but without that context. And in the timeline of the documentary, we don't have that context yet. So to me, that was very damning of like, he's expecting the police to want to interview him. I'd forgotten that. We're going to learn that he's been through a whole thing with the police already at this point in his life.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Yeah, yeah, I totally hear what you're saying. I just see it a little differently as like. Because the cops see this as proof that Nathan had a plan to like kidnap and kill his mother on this trip. Yeah. And I don't see the connection because.

[Patrick Hines]

No, I agree with you at this point because he. We're going to learn that he's already been interviewed extensively by the police on.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Another matter because what he say, number two, philosophically, the idea of proving one's innocence repels me. Yeah. Because you're innocent until proven guilty. He's 100% right on that.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bethevoli]

The generally, the police are corrupt and often criminal. Find the lie.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bethevoli]

And four, keep your mouth shut and ask for a lawyer. Okay, great. I agree with all of this.

[Patrick Hines]

All I'm saying is that if this was written before he went missing, this has nothing to do with the case of his mother and it has everything to do with the case that we'll get to later that he's already been through. And then he has every right to feel this way as he's writing. Right? Yeah.

[Julian Bethevoli]

And I got to tell you, as someone who hasn't been looked at for murder yet. Yeah, I agree.

[Patrick Hines]

Is young girl.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Right. Like, I could. I could have written that.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. For sure.

[Julian Bethevoli]

You wouldn't find something like that. What if I got super amped up about a recording and I was like, I'm gonna fucking let my feelings out in my journal? And this is what I wrote. Like, yeah, no, I'm gonna be any one of us.

[Patrick Hines]

All of this makes sense. All of this is fine. And it makes sense when you understand later what he's been through.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Right. Nathan agrees to speak to police. And I'm like, without a lawyer. Number four on your list specifically says that a lawyer advised you to remain silent. So I don't know why we're here.

[Patrick Hines]

And to me, this makes him look guilty because he's trying to look innocent.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Well, we have the audio. Right. And so Nathan tells police that he and his mother went to stop and shop. They got something to drink.

[Patrick Hines]

Love a stop and shop shout out. We're gonna get a Duncan shout out later. This is a day for me.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Duncan.

[Patrick Hines]

I know. So I know.

[Julian Bethevoli]

They drove to the marina. We have video of this. Like, this is all being confirmed. They loaded up the bait from his truck onto the boat. What's weird, however, Nathan had mentioned that.

[Documentary Narrator/Interviewee]

He had bought bait and things of that nature. He did buy eels. We found eels used for fishing in his truck. Which is, you know, obviously interesting and concerning to us because why, if he intended to use the eels to go fishing, why would he leave the bait in his truck and not bring it on the boat?

[Julian Bethevoli]

They got eels for bait and they didn't use them. They didn't take it with them on the boat.

[Patrick Hines]

And, like, you can say maybe he just forgot it. But Nathan is pretty meticulous.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Sure.

[Patrick Hines]

Doesn't, like, he seems to me like the guy. And a guy that would have a checklist of, like, make sure you have all this stuff.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Like. And he didn't bring the bait for the fishing trip. Like, without the bait, there is no fishing trip.

[Julian Bethevoli]

And to that point, when Nathan continues, he says they left the marina around midnight, which, as we know, is not uncommon for these trips.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bethevoli]

But after they'd already left, they decide on the water, on a whim, to totally change their plan. Plans. And now they're going to go to Block Canyon, which is a much longer trip. And we're told it's like 60 to 70 miles offshore.

[Patrick Hines]

And they're like, you don't do that as a casual boater. That's like open ocean. Like, that takes a lot of preparation and planning. You can't just, like, you can't change your mind from going a couple miles out to going 70 miles out.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

And I'm told I know nothing about boating.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Well, again, to that point, yeah, I googled. I was like, what kind of boat is this?

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Julian Bethevoli]

This is not a boat boat. I believe that you would Spend a week on.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, I mean, right, like there's nowhere to sleep, it seems.

[Julian Bethevoli]

It's a 31 foot aluminum boat. Now, please, boaters out there, correct me if I'm wrong.

[Patrick Hines]

If you have any of those, I'd be thrilled to find out plenty.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Remember when we were fishing podcasts for a week?

[Patrick Hines]

That's true.

[Julian Bethevoli]

I'm not saying they're the same. I'm just saying, would you go out on this boat for a week? I don't think so.

[Patrick Hines]

Was that the plan? Were they supposed to go for a week?

[Julian Bethevoli]

No, but they're. But Nathan is saying on a whim, we decided to go for, you know, another 60 miles out or much farther. Not a week, but like several days.

[Patrick Hines]

It also seems like you would need a lot of gas. Like if you weren't planning for that trip, that seems like you wouldn't have it.

[Julian Bethevoli]

So all of that, the fact that this just doesn't seem like a boat you'd spend any, like, extended amount of time on, like a fishing trip. Fine.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Also, what happened to the mom's phone? Because she was texting at the marina at 11 o' clock at night. And I'm like, even if you're like, oh, we'll leave the phones in the.

[Patrick Hines]

Car overnight, that you would never do that. Although. Unless the idea is the phones aren't going to work out there anyway.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Right, but then why would you be like, okay, let me also not tell anyone that we're going to change our plans.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Julian Bethevoli]

And go 70 miles out of the way when Sharon, Linda's friend, is waiting for her text.

[Patrick Hines]

And also, like, we're only hearing this from Nathan. You know what I mean? There's like, no, like, the mom isn't here to corroborate.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Also, the boat is called the Chickenpox.

[Patrick Hines]

I know. I don't know if I like that or not.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Boats often have names like this.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. You know, what is there, is there more to that?

[Julian Bethevoli]

I've just had a Sopranos thing. Oh, Tony Sopranos boat is called Stugac. And so his girl, his guma's girlfriend, calls it the Stugets because she's Russian. She goes, oh, I don't know where it is, Tony. I think I left it on the Stugets. Anyway.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh my God.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Then they're like, okay, like, this is all weird, but the more Nathan talks again, you should have listened to number four on your list. I'm confused as to why he didn't.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, but there's also so much more. Like Nathan is telling them about what? Like the circumstances under which the boat sank. And he says, like, the engine sounded weird. I opened the hatch door, saw a lot of water. And they were asking him, like, did.

[Documentary Narrator/Interviewee]

You do a radio distress signal? No, I did not.

[Patrick Hines]

I didn't think we were going to sink. If you know you're sinking, you always get on the radio and say distress. But I knew that our distress signal.

[Documentary Narrator/Interviewee]

Wouldn'T reach shore, but it would reach other boats.

[Patrick Hines]

I didn't know if there were any other boats in range. So you didn't try.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Well, which is it then?

[Patrick Hines]

Right?

[Julian Bethevoli]

You didn't know you were sinking or you knew the calls wouldn't reach shore? And that's when the cops are like, right. But the signal could meet other butler, like reach other boats. And he goes, well, I didn't know if there were any other boats in range. And the cops, like, you didn't try, right? Which, these are all like, right? I mean, should he even be having this conversation with police? 100% not.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes, no. And like, but then the dad is here to say, like, he 100% believes his son, that it was an accident if he could have saved his mommy. Whatever. We're going to learn eventually that Nathan and his mom have a super codependent relationship.

[Julian Bethevoli]

And it's, it's bad.

[Patrick Hines]

But the way that they try to present it to us, the way the family tried, they just, they loved each other so fiercely. No, they were, they were 100% codependent.

[Julian Bethevoli]

So, yeah, like, and again, it's a 31 foot aluminum boat. The minute you see water where it shouldn't be, that's a panic situation because you're, you're also further out. Without the proper supplies, you would need 70 miles out. Like that would, just to be safe, I'd be trying to signal everybody.

[Patrick Hines]

Also, like, not blaming the victims here, but like, you don't also have to go out on the water in a 31 foot aluminum boat. You know what I mean? There are other things you can, you don't have to like, put yourself in the middle of the ocean. Ocean.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Well, I think that's what they're, the cops are saying here. The cops are like the, the plan was to only go out a little bit for a few hours and come right back.

[Patrick Hines]

And that's why I'm saying that, like, I mean, let's just say it looks like a murder plot. You know what I mean?

[Julian Bethevoli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

It looks to all of us like he took his mother out there to kill her.

[Julian Bethevoli]

So the plan to go 70 miles on a Whim just doesn't seem like something that even that his mother would agree to, right?

[Patrick Hines]

But then Nathan is looking at the cops like, why don't you get it? You know what I mean, fam? This episode is brought to you by IQ Bar, our exclusive snack, hydration and coffee sponsor.

[Julian Bethevoli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Bethevoli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Bethevoli]

Start carrying IQ bars. Plant protein bars in your bag. Yes, they're the smarter snack choice with plenty of plant protein, tons of fiber and no added sugar.

[Patrick Hines]

Let me just tell you too, like, you have one of those things and it totally fills you up and you feel like you ate something good and.

[Julian Bethevoli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Bethevoli]

They'Re clean label certified.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly, fam. The new year gives us all a chance to reset. So maximize your brain and body's potential with IQ bars, protein bars, hydration mixes and mushroom coffees.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Their ultimate Sampler pack includes all three.

[Patrick Hines]

And right now, fam, IQ Bar is offering our special podcast listeners 20% off all IQ Bar products, including the Ultimate Sampler pack, plus free shipping.

[Julian Bethevoli]

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[Patrick Hines]

Text TCO to 64,000.

[Julian Bethevoli]

That's TCO to 64,000.

[Patrick Hines]

Message and data rates may apply. See terms for details. That's how I say it.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Details, details. That's fancy.

[Patrick Hines]

Thank you so much.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Also, let's. There's a lot of drama in this family.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my God.

[Documentary Narrator/Interviewee]

No one called me from the family. None of the three sisters. None of the cousins. Cousins did not hear from a soul. They felt Nathan had murdered their sister.

[Julian Bethevoli]

He killed her sister, his own mother.

[Patrick Hines]

So, yeah, we didn't want anything to do with him.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Linda's sisters did not attend her memorial service.

[Patrick Hines]

Like they were not speaking to her by the end of her life.

[Julian Bethevoli]

And Linda's side of the family to this day has never reached out to Nathan or his father. She has three sisters and nobody calls called this cousin that we meet didn't call.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Because they're like, oh, Nathan murdered our sister. Like, why would we even want to have a conversation?

[Patrick Hines]

The thing too that we're going to learn in a minute is that like this family with filthy fucking rich. And it was disgustingly rich. But also like everyone is using the money to control everybody else. It's all about. This whole documentary is about money and this whole family's dysfunction stems from the money.

[Julian Bethevoli]

So Charlene, Linda's sister, bad vibes up and down with this one. Charlene tells us about the family. She. This is, this is a shout out to Natalie Grillo and Robbie and Len. There were four do, which is how Teresa Gudice Giudice, however she mispronounces her own last name. She has four daughters. Oh my God, I hate it. I know. So Natalie, whenever she says the word daughters, Natalie will type it out. D, O, R, T, E, R, S. Stop it. But Valerie, Charlene, Linda and Elaine. And Charlene is like, oh my God. Linda and I were best friends. We had an amazing childhood. One big amazingly happy family. Not a single issue in sight.

[Patrick Hines]

But they start to say that Linda was a lot like our dad, John. Linda was fun.

[Julian Bethevoli]

She was very athletic. She was very much like my father.

[Patrick Hines]

My father was.

[Julian Bethevoli]

He was hard headed.

[Documentary Narrator/Interviewee]

John Shackles was my uncle. He was pretty much a force of nature. He was a guy that he, he was, he was bigger than life.

[Patrick Hines]

Dad was a force of nature. He was a hard headed real estate developer. So this guy is building nursing homes, assisted livings. Like he's in. He's a fudgeing millionaire.

[Julian Bethevoli]

So we also meet Charles Chuck Lapena, who John is the patriarch of the family. John the father. John was his uncle. So he's Nathan's cousin.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bethevoli]

But he's like, you know, he, he was bigger than life. And so this guy was building assisted living facilities but naming them after his daughters.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julian Bethevoli]

So it'd be like Valerie Manor. Linda Manor.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bethevoli]

And eventually Charlene. Come on, Charlene. It's like we moved to like a fairly nice home in New Hampshire.

[Patrick Hines]

20,000 square feet with an indoor swimming pool. We see video.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Charlene. It was an estate. It was an estate house.

[Patrick Hines]

And Charlene's like, oh my God, we've got money now.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Well, she goes, one summer we had elephants there. And it was the elephants that made Charlene think, wow, I guess we have money. Charlene, why are you already lying to me, girl? I know like you have bad vibes.

[Patrick Hines]

And the undertone of everything that everybody in this family Says is money. It's all about getting the money.

[Julian Bethevoli]

So Linda is Linda's best friend. Linda Gam, like not good for a.

[Patrick Hines]

Documentary Linda, you know what I mean?

[Julian Bethevoli]

She's. I'm welcoming her because I think she's going to be honest with us.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Because she said, I knew Linda, the victim for 30 years. We talked about everything. And she like takes two seconds to say all the relationships were very dysfunctional and her father was extremely controlling. So she said, I'm gonna move to California. And he said, well, if you do, then I'm disowning you. She goes, okay. And she went. So the father was extremely controlling. Which by the way is what they mean by saying hard headed force of nature. Like they're trying to.

[Patrick Hines]

He's also incredibly violent and he beats his kids.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Super abusive. So Linda wants to move to California and the father threatens to disown her and she's like, promise and bails to California.

[Patrick Hines]

But we're going to see this so much. The dad, like, it's such a bullshit thing. He is using his money to control everybody in his life and they're all kind of allowing it. Except for Linda in this moment when she moves to California and like joins the National Guard. Like fudge. Yeah, Linda.

[Julian Bethevoli]

And so BFF Linda says that her three sisters are the complete oppos opposite. Which also probably means they were super jealous of Linda.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Because she like they wanted some money and they put up with this abusive father and she was able to get out.

[Patrick Hines]

I just wanted to point out, just to go back for one second. Linda joined the National Guard.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

You have to be a very good swimmer to do that. Oh, you know what I mean? Like that just occurred to me in this moment because.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Yeah, they mentioned that a little bit too later.

[Patrick Hines]

They say she was a really strong swimmer. But just now I was like, oh my God, the National Guard, like you're jumping out of helicopters into the. The ocean, you know.

[Julian Bethevoli]

So also this whole disowning thing was an empty threat. It was a manipulation because Linda meets Clark and gets married and her father's in the wedding picture. So he was just trying to control them with money, like.

[Patrick Hines]

And that's the thing. So then Clark is here to say, and God damn it, my little New England heart grew five sizes when he said this.

[Julian Bethevoli]

This would work on you. Cuz this is how he tries to lure Linda home.

[Patrick Hines]

No question.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Luring them back.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. The dad John says her father John.

[Documentary Narrator/Interviewee]

Had promised if we move back he would develop a Dunkin Donuts franchise for Us when we got back there, he reneged. So she ended up having to work for her father, which was not a good situation between those two.

[Patrick Hines]

He's going to open them a Dunkin Donuts franchise if they come back, he promises. I can't imagine that's a thing anybody actually wants. Like that sounds like an absolute nightmare to me. But at the same time it's Dunkin Donuts, you know what I mean? I love that he's opening them a Dunkin Donuts, Franch.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Well, for whatever reason, he knew that this would get them to be like, okay, yeah. So the minute they get home, he reneged. It was all a ploy to get Linda back home and back under his.

[Patrick Hines]

Grip and to go work for him.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Because what we learn is that now we don't get the details of why, but we're told that Linda is now in a position where she has to work for her father.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And we, Clark, the, the ex husband is telling us like John was super volatile. He describes he would push and slap his wife and daughters. And we hear stories later about him doing this to Linda and Clark.

[Julian Bethevoli]

The husband uses the word constant. The violence was constant, he says. And now the cousin nephew is here to downplay it. He's like, you know, sure, the occasional fist fight, but it's not like anyone ever went to the hospital.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean like that's just not like that is totally normalizing behavior. That is total bullshit.

[Julian Bethevoli]

I think it's really weird that Charlene and this guy don't have a bad word to say about the abusive father. I think that's weird. There's a lot of money involved, all of them, a lot of finger pointing and they don't have a single true thing to say about him.

[Patrick Hines]

The reason nobody talks to Linda is because everybody else in this family sold their sou to get their inheritance, you know, so.

[Julian Bethevoli]

And I'm like, can we move on from the cousin? But then we get crazy news.

[Patrick Hines]

Early Friday morning in Windsor, Connecticut, 87 year old John Chokalis was found dead from an apparent gunshot wound to the head. Investigators are calling it a homicide.

[Documentary Narrator/Interviewee]

Elaine was the eldest, walked in and found him literally executed.

[Patrick Hines]

And this bed, investigators are calling it a homicide right away. And like Detective Mark is here to say, it was a horror show like this. The shot to the head was so bad that you almost couldn't even tell what caused it. And like we learned there was no struggle. The guy was lying on the bed. That was like he definitely knew the assailant.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Yeah. And so Linda, John's daughter and Nathan's mom speaks to the cops and we see video. And now BFF Linda is like, I got to tell you, Linda, our victim always thought it was a mob hit cuz her dad was in construction. And that can sometimes be linked to organized crime. He knew some shady characters. Like, could this be a mob hit? And the cops give us two reasons why it's not the mob.

[Patrick Hines]

This is your area. So you, you take it, girl.

[Julian Bethevoli]

One, they say the weapon was a large caliber weapon. Hits like that are usually like smaller because it makes this. A big gun is going to make.

[Patrick Hines]

Like a little purse gun. You got to take your little purse gun to your mom.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Tracy gun, little Dick Tracy gun. And two, what happened to John's house? Which they say doesn't really happen either. Usually you disappear. I could go either way.

[Patrick Hines]

I was going to say, I don't know.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Sometimes they want to make a statement. You never know, right?

[Patrick Hines]

They can put a horse head in the bed next to you or whatever.

[Julian Bethevoli]

I also red, don't do that, by the way.

[Patrick Hines]

Don't put up. Don't. What does the horse. What the horse do?

[Julian Bethevoli]

Look, I know.

[Patrick Hines]

Imagine waking up next to a horse head.

[Julian Bethevoli]

No, I mean like that's a traumatizing scene in that movie.

[Patrick Hines]

I don't even know what movie it is. I just don't.

[Julian Bethevoli]

The Godfather. Oh my God.

[Patrick Hines]

Can you tell? The Godfather's like not on my list. I know, I know it's not. Girls just Want to have fun from 1985. I can't. If it's not that, I'm not watching it.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Okay, fair enough. Oh, I also read this guy John, who was just killed, the abusive father, had this like 25 year old girlfriend.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh my God. Really?

[Julian Bethevoli]

She had another boyfriend that's a drug dealer. So there's like a whole other thing with the. He was like 80 and she's 25. Like there's that whole element too, which is all just speculation. But it's weird that she's not mentioned at all, right?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, I mean these documentaries definitely, like leave side stories out. But like they're just saying like now.

[Documentary Narrator/Interviewee]

We'Re verifying that this crime that we believe is a break in is not a break in for purposes of taking anything. It's a break in for purposes of doing harm to John. Now we come to who else? Who else has intimate details of him, his family?

[Patrick Hines]

Nothing was stolen. The intent was just to kill John. Who could it be? Must be the family. And it must be about the money.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Because honestly, it must be an extraordinary amount of money involved. And now we get this horrible footage.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Of one of his grown ass daughters.

[Patrick Hines]

She's like 40.

[Julian Bethevoli]

I think it's Charlene.

[Patrick Hines]

They're at like some backyard barbecue or something.

[Julian Bethevoli]

No, some huge. Not a backdoor. Like a huge outdoor party that he probably paid for.

[Patrick Hines]

That's what I mean. Backyard to them.

[Julian Bethevoli]

And like she's doing some toast. I'm pretty sure. Charlene, who's here with us. Daddy, I need some money. Daddy.

[Patrick Hines]

The Mona Lisa from Parks and recommend.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Money, please.

[Patrick Hines]

Money, please.

[Julian Bethevoli]

And everyone is laughing like, it's so cute. And I'm like, it grow up. It pissed me off so much. And doesn't this tell you everything?

[Patrick Hines]

I was just going to say, like, this is. That is her being her true authentic self. Not even knowing she's on camera.

[Julian Bethevoli]

And everyone around her thought it was really cute.

[Patrick Hines]

The dad is laughing. He thinks it's up. The dad loved having that kind of control. I know he loved having that kind of control over his family. He knew as long as he controlled the money, he controlled everybody.

[Julian Bethevoli]

I want to slow down on the money and I want to do it slowly so that everyone gets like the weight of this.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bethevoli]

So there was a living trust. The four daughters got, quote. Charlene goes, we got the same amount of money. No, no, no. Charlene, be honest about how much money it was. Because Clark, the ex is like.

[Documentary Narrator/Interviewee]

Each girl was receiving, I would say, approximately $25,000 a month, notwithstanding what they would inherit if he should pass away.

[Julian Bethevoli]

They got $25,000 a month for nothing. Just for being born to this guy.

[Patrick Hines]

That's their allowance.

[Julian Bethevoli]

So this doesn't even include the inheritance money. Yes. Which is forthcoming. And now we learn how much it is.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bethevoli]

And it is insane.

[Patrick Hines]

$42 million divided by equally among the four daughters.

[Julian Bethevoli]

$10.5 million each after the 300 grand that they're just getting for fun.

[Patrick Hines]

And that's just like today. Like, by the time he dies, who knows how much it's gonna be, you know?

[Julian Bethevoli]

So you're sitting there and you're like, well, obviously someone in the family killed him. He was abusive.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julian Bethevoli]

And they're sitting on ten and a half million dollars. And then some.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And then we learned that Nathan, the son who we started with here, he becomes the prime suspect because he was the last person to see his grandfather.

[Julian Bethevoli]

This is also just such. Like we were saying before, it's such a great way. I say, you know how I'm going to say the word great Great way to manipulate people.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Because you can look at them and be like, do you want that ten and a half million or not?

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly. Right. Like, how much are you willing to put up with? The guy's in his 80s. How much longer you got to put up with? This is what they're saying to themselves every morning. It's that scene from Heather's where she's in the bathroom and she takes a swig of water and spits it at herself. That's what Charlene does every fudgeing morning.

[Julian Bethevoli]

And, like, maybe that's why people didn't go to the hospital.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Idiot cousin. Like, maybe that's why everyone kept their mouth shut about it, because they're just counting the seconds until ten and a half million and then some.

[Patrick Hines]

Is it worth it? I mean, tell me it's ten and a half million dollars worth. It worth the lifetime of abuse and, like, suffering and soul selling. I think that's the part of it. That's the word. That's why they didn't like Linda, because she didn't do that.

[Julian Bethevoli]

That's exactly what they were. Incredibly jealous of her. Incre. Incredibly jealous of her. I've said this to you a million times. My piece, I've learned, is more valuable than anything to me.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Like, I don't care.

[Patrick Hines]

You can make your own money. You know what I mean?

[Julian Bethevoli]

Like, no.

[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Bethevoli]

Yeah. They have things that are perfect for layering, mixing, and building a wardrobe that lasts. And let me tell you, I have been living in my Luna Stretch flare jeans. I'm not kidding. They are so cute. I got them in that dark gray wash. I love them so much. They're so comfortable.

[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Bethevoli]

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[Julian Bethevoli]

Yeah. The quality shows in every detail, too. The stitching, the fit, the fabrics. Every piece is just so thoughtfully designed to be your new wardrobe essential. I have, like, three pieces from Quince. I wear them all the time.

[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Bethevoli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Bethevoli]

Yeah. Those jeans should have been like $225, 50.

[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Bethevoli]

And I'm wearing them every day.

[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Bethevoli]

I know. They're so comfortable. The quality, they're going to last forever. I love them. I'm not kidding. I love.

[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Bethevoli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Bethevoli]

Yeah. And they also have like candles and stuff for your house.

[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Bethevoli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Bethevoli]

Yeah. Rocket Money can track your subscriptions all in one place, which I love so much. The dashboard makes it so easy and it gives you the ability to cancel within the app. And just a few taps, you save time. You're avoiding charges.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And look, they've got automatic transaction categorization across their accounts, plus customizable categories and tags to reveal spending patterns and add context. Like you can actually explain to yourself what you're doing.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Yeah. Or you're like, wait, how much has this been? And when you see everything all in one place, you're like, I'm spending that much on that. I'm barely using it.

[Patrick Hines]

Not worth it.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Right. And it helps you set your budgets and your goals. And you can get personalized insights and regular reports. Like, you can really be on top of your stuff.

[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Bethevoli]

Yeah. With all of these alerts and everything you can do, it's just like it's a set it and forget it approach, which is very, very helpful. Like knowing that Rocket Money has your back with all of this.

[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Bethevoli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Bethevoli]

Happy holidays and that too. So Nathan and John the grandfather are super close and we're told Clark, the dad is like he was the firstborn grandson of a Greek dynasty.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. He was number one in his grandpa's eyes. We are going to learn an interesting piece to this later. But like we, you know, we learned that Nathan was diagnosed with autism when he was 5. And like we get this whole thing here about how he loved horses. His mom buys him a horse named Cruz. And we'll talk more about Cruz later. But like Nathan was getting services from day one. Kids with these kinds of disabilities need this. And the grandfather absolutely hated it.

[Julian Bethevoli]

John was old school. John did not understand why Nathan needed help. And they used to get in arguments about it. Why do you need to take him there? Why do you need, need to do this? He like didn't believe in getting help from Nathan.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. And we're going to learn too that like there, there's more to the story with John's own family about why he doesn't like hospitals. And in a weird way, it at least lets you understand why he feels the way that he feels about certain aspects of this. But more than anything, like he just thinks cuz he's the grandfather with the money he can be in charge of what Linda does with her son's care. And Linda's not having it.

[Julian Bethevoli]

And at one point we hear an argument from a home video and Nathan is riding the horse Cruz, who his dad describes as like Nathan's best friend. His best friend absolutely loved this horse.

[Patrick Hines]

And because his dad says he didn't have other friends. And it's like because kids are the worst.

[Julian Bethevoli]

But Linda, you hear Linda on the home video saying to her father, don't even start. And then just repeating, you weren't invited, you weren't invited, you weren't invited.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bethevoli]

So the big question is with the, the death of the grandfather, the patriarch, whatever, does Linda the mom have an alibi? Because maybe she wanted to get rid of an abuser and also get money for her son. Turns out Linda has an egg alibi.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bethevoli]

So now the cops interview Nathan when he's 19 years old. He does not have anyone with him during this interview. Which is unacceptable across the board.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And this is when we start to understand the, how problematic it is for police to be questioning a person with autism without representation from somebody who understands why he's at least coming across the way that he's coming for sure.

[Julian Bethevoli]

And this is where we get the law enforcement to camera today. Sitting down with the lights and everything.

[Documentary Narrator/Interviewee]

To press and record his affect isn't right and throw out all of what, whatever challenges he has through autism or whatever, his affect isn't right.

[Patrick Hines]

Despite his challenges with autism or whatever, his affect isn't right. So do you hear yourself?

[Julian Bethevoli]

You hear yourself? No, I'm like, this is today. They did these interviews. Yeah. So Elizabeth Kelly, she's an autism specialist attorney, and she says, first of all, Nathan never should have been interrogated.

[Patrick Hines]

Obviously, even though I think he did it, I a million % agree with.

[Julian Bethevoli]

100%. She says people on the autism spectrum are frequently misinterpreted. And she says the way Nathan was speaking, she described. Describes it as very stilted terms, being, quote, robotic, giving details in a cold and calculating sounding way. And she's like, when the cops hear this, of course they're going to think he's guilty because of this. And that's exactly what.

[Patrick Hines]

Happens. Yeah. You know, and look, we see more of his interview with the cops and he's like, you know, talking about his mother, saying, I don't want to talk negatively about my mom, but, like, she did imply to me once that she hated my dad. So I don't.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Know. And again, just to be clear, this is the interview about the death of his grandfather. The murder of his grandfather, not his mother. This is what we're talking about. He's 19 years old and like.

[Patrick Hines]

At the end of the day, the cops say to him, like, we. Our issue with you is that you were the last person. Person to see him. That, like, that does make him a very likely.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Suspect. So what's Nathan's alibi? His. According to Nathan, he had dinner with his grandfather. Great dinner. No arguments. Everything was fine. After dinner, they go their separate ways. It's the middle of the night, and Nathan is about to meet his mother for one of their fishing.

[Patrick Hines]

Trips. Taking off at 3 in the morning. Like, holy shit, he was over.

[Julian Bethevoli]

An hour late to meet her. And they're like, nathan, we have a problem here because there's one hour that we can't account for. Where were.

[Patrick Hines]

You? And I'm sorry. Like, his explanation holds. No.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Water. No.

[Patrick Hines]

Literally. And so, yeah, he just says, he's like. He says he was driving, but I ended up getting off the wrong exit and then get turned around and then I mistakenly took the exit on the north side of Hartford to go over the Connecticut.

[Julian Bethevoli]

River. He says he got lost twice. Yes, he got off on the wrong exit. And then when he was trying to get back on track, he took another Wrong exit. And never once called his mother who was waiting for him at 3am Even though she called him five times, didn't take her.

[Patrick Hines]

Calls. Like, I'm sorry, like, I know this isn't Hartford hard evidence, but it's enough for.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Me. It's, it's something to investigate further, I would.

[Patrick Hines]

Say. You know, we do. Also, like, we are told from Nathan's attorneys that John, the victim here, his neighbor, heard a gunshot at 2 in the morning. And they said we can account for Nathan at two in the morning because he's on video at his residence.

[Julian Bethevoli]

At 2am at the apartment. That's what we're told. We don't see it, but that's what his lawyers are saying. So if that's the case, if he's on video at 2:00am yes, yes, exactly. And also you can ask a lot of questions here. Like was the witness, was that time, Right? What did they hear? We don't know.

[Patrick Hines]

Anything. Right.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Yeah. But we're told that there's footage from Nathan's.

[Patrick Hines]

Apartment.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Yes. Also now we're going to talk about polygraphs for 15 minutes and everyone wants us to think that it's a major red flag that Nathan didn't want to take.

[Patrick Hines]

One. Like absolutely.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Ridiculous.

[Patrick Hines]

Whatever. I mean we are told from the cousin, so who knows if it's true or not, that like the mom did not pass the polygraph and was taken it several times. This is meant to introduce like did Nathan kill his grandfather and does his mother know and is covering for him? Like that's the whole next.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Area. Like, because that's option one or the other option is that they did it.

[Patrick Hines]

Together.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Right. But either way, the family thinks that Linda and Nathan were in cahoots somehow killing their.

[Patrick Hines]

Father. Yeah. And like, you know, the idea might even be that it had never been discussed between Nathan and Linda, but Linda knows he did it and isn't going to turn him.

[Julian Bethevoli]

In. So let's talk about Nathan and Linda's relationship. And apparently it was very, very strained. And all of these fishing trips are part of Linda trying to make up for.

[Patrick Hines]

It. And then we learn from the dad that cruise the horse who like literally was Nathan's like only friend, died when Nathan was a teenage. And this is a huge, dramatic loss for Nathan. He takes it very hard. He wants to be alone all the.

[Documentary Narrator/Interviewee]

Time. Linda had this 32 foot camper, so he would stay in there, come in for meals and Nathan progressively stayed in the camper longer and longer and became.

[Patrick Hines]

Worse. This kind of isolation is, is serious. Like he Would stay in there for long periods of time. The dad is like, he was trying to take apart the microwave. He's not talking to anybody. He's literally urinating in bottles. Like he's self destructing in that.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Trailer. Yeah. So it was still on the property. It was like right outside. But like he. That's where he wanted to be. 99% of the time he was in this camper. He wasn't.

[Patrick Hines]

Bathing.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Yes. And Clark, Nathan's dad, says he was going downhill mentally. So as a result, we don't talk about this nearly.

[Patrick Hines]

Enough. This is.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Unbelievable. Nathan is shipped off to one of those abusive, tortured teen.

[Patrick Hines]

Camps. And like Utah, we get this story from the dad that like they felt that they had no choice. The guys literally show up at 3 in the morning. Nathan is sobbing and begging them not to send him. I don't know how any parent can get through.

[Julian Bethevoli]

That. Let me tell you something. You have so much money, There are so many other options. Even if you're poor, this should never be an option. But especially when you have millions of dollars and the resources and look, I watched all those documentaries. I trick the parents. I know the parents are the mark. I know they lie to the parents. I get that. But anything that starts with your kid being dragged out of your home.

[Patrick Hines]

Literally kicking and screaming and sobbing like they're like, there, there's just no.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Way. That's the beginning. That's how it.

[Patrick Hines]

Starts.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Yeah. It's not.

[Patrick Hines]

Good. No. And this him up.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Irreparably. Of course it.

[Patrick Hines]

Does. Whatever was going on with his mental health before he went there, this made it about a hundred times.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Worse. We don't get any information. If you didn't know anything, you'd be like, wow, they sent him to treatment and he came back. But like, we don'. Any information about how abusive these places are and what, that he was abused and came.

[Patrick Hines]

Back. All we know is that like it was so abusive that it broke him. And we get this letter that he wrote to his priest. And I mean this, this took my breath.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Away. He wrote, It's 11.

[Patrick Hines]

Pages. The excerpt that we get reads, the spread between my mother and I widened to equal the spread between heaven and.

[Documentary Narrator/Interviewee]

Hell. The way some parents are committed to having their children grow up to be doctors or lawyers. My mother's dream is to have a nonverbal autistic child drooling in her living room, whose diapers she can change until she grows old. My mother's pursuit of that dream and her bullying characterized my.

[Patrick Hines]

Childhood. My mother's pursuit of that dream. And her bullying characterized my.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Childhood. Holy.

[Patrick Hines]

Shit. Like, that's a very different picture of Linda than we've gotten so far. That is like, that's like a Munchausen by Proxy thing. Like keeping your kids. Kids sick and drooling and non verbal and in diapers. Like, like that is at least how Nathan saw his relationship with his.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Mother. Well, the thing about those camps, I mean, or those programs, whatever the fuck you want to call them, those torture hell holes, is that like the kids are begging to come.

[Patrick Hines]

Home.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Yes. And the parents are told don't listen, they're lying to you, they're manipulative. So if Nathan is. Is reduced to writing this like 11 page letter to a priest, he was probably begging his parents who didn't listen. And again, I know that the parents are the mark. They are brainwashed, they're told whatever to get the money coming in. I get.

[Patrick Hines]

That. And I also abuse. Yeah, no question. And I think that the one that he went to must have been some sort of like religiously affiliated thing because the next. Yeah. And the next whole section of this is all about how his relationship with God and the church was different when he came back. So like we're told when he came back from the camp he had a breakdown, having problems with the church and the.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Devil. Well, obviously he's acting out. He abused for. We don't know how long he was there, like Netflix, Get a.

[Patrick Hines]

Grip. But if it wasn't, if it just. It feels to me like it must have been some sort of religious thing because like that's a weird thing to come back with if it wasn't or.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Not. Like maybe you just don't believe in anything anymore and like why would. You know what I.

[Patrick Hines]

Mean? Yeah, it just feels like either the family is super religious and we're not being told about it, or this program was like, like there's. That just seems like a.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Lot. Well, he comes home, he's acting out obviously. And then another shitty decision is made because they throw him in this psychiatric.

[Patrick Hines]

Facility. Yeah, they could do anything. They sent him away twice. And as he's like begging not to go. And like this is where John the grandfather steps in. Because Nathan is supposed to be alone in this facility getting therapy every day, not communicating with his family. But the, the grandfather is going to see him daily, bringing him newspapers and pizza and it's making Linda crazy. And like John and the grandfather desperately wanted to get Nathan out of.

[Documentary Narrator/Interviewee]

There. He wanted to take him out and that was it. John said he was Going to cut. Got the money. Linda said she didn't want the money. He came at her, started to slap.

[Patrick Hines]

Her. And this is where we get from Clark, the ex husband, a scene of him, like slapping and hitting her, like in public, like in front of people. He doesn't care who sees.

[Julian Bethevoli]

It.

[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Bethevoli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Bethevoli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Bethevoli]

Keto. Yeah. And not just that, but like the other options they have are, like, how much you feel like cooking that.

[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Bethevoli]

Exactly. They'll send you, like classic recipes with fresh ingredients. Ingredients, you got 30 minute meals. Or you can get oven ready trays. Just throw in the oven. Or a quick microwave lunch. Like all of these.

[Patrick Hines]

Options. They've also got that dedicated family menu which, like, we actually sit Daisy down and we pick the food together so we know she'll eat.

[Julian Bethevoli]

It. Yeah. And those are for four or six serving.

[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Bethevoli]

Three. Of.

[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Bethevoli]

Groceries. That's.

[Patrick Hines]

Huge. How many times you go to the grocery store to buy that? Like one big thing of a thing that you need to use, like one piece of.

[Julian Bethevoli]

It. Yeah. The parsley, they give you like a bushel of parsley. You're like, I didn't even really want it in the first.

[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Bethevoli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Bethevoli]

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[Patrick Hines]

Dessert. Always with the rules. But you know what? It's good to know. And you got to have.

[Julian Bethevoli]

A. It's totally worth it. We're doing it.

[Patrick Hines]

Anyway. Eat the dessert while you're unpacking the.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Box. So.

[Patrick Hines]

Good.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Truly. And then we learn that there's a history of mental illness in the family. Kiki is John's twin.

[Patrick Hines]

Sister.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Yes. And Charlene, the sister with bad vibes, says she had depression or some kind of mental illness. Thanks, Charlene, for once again, for your.

[Patrick Hines]

Warmth. Well, and this is where I was. I was referring to this earlier. This is why John feels. John, the grandfather feels the way he feels about sending people to like, quote, mental institutions because his sister Kiki was sent to one and it made her worse because she was given shock therapy treatment and, like, horribly.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Mistreated. Can I ask, like, why did anyone ever think that that was a good.

[Patrick Hines]

Idea? I don't.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Know. Like, how did we get there? I can't.

[Patrick Hines]

Imagine. I.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Know. Even explaining it and saying it out loud and a bunch of men being like that sounds.

[Patrick Hines]

Like. Sounds like a great idea. Like, I.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Know. And then when they used to.

[Patrick Hines]

Do it to gay people, you know what I mean? Like, thinking that it would convert.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Them. Right. And that, like, rewire you. And then when you see it, like, who in that room going, we need to do more of this to more people. It's really.

[Patrick Hines]

Helping. It.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Doesn'T. I don't understand. It's so.

[Patrick Hines]

Barbaric. Well, and. But it also feels like the torture is the point. It feels like the pain and the mistreatment and the torture is the.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Point. Because a lot of that old school thinking was like, this is all a choice, so you don't want this to happen.

[Patrick Hines]

Again. Also, like, they were subjects to be tested on, you know, I think it's so.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Disgusting. It really.

[Patrick Hines]

Is. So it almost feels unreal. Like you can't. Like, you almost can't. Like, you see, like, the scenes that we've seen in movies of it, but you feel like it's. It can't have actually.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Happened. I know. Like once, you know, the.

[Patrick Hines]

Cuckoo.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Yeah. I hate.

[Patrick Hines]

It.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Yeah. So John saw what was done to his sister and he didn't want Nathan to go through that. Of course. That makes sense. I just want to say Nathan needs help, so forcing treatment on him isn't going to work. But forbidding him from getting help also isn't going to work. Yeah. So we have to figure out. And sending him to a fucking torture camp isn't going to work either. So, like, and my question to.

[Patrick Hines]

This family with all the resources in the world, why are you trying the one thing that you have experience with that didn't.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Work? I don't.

[Patrick Hines]

Know. You know what I mean? And also, like, at the time that this was all happening, autism was not like an unknown, you know? And. And once again, I'm not attributing his behavior to his autism. We're going to learn later that, like, he was an autistic person with a severe mental illness. So it's just like, this family has all the resources in the world, like, figure out what's happening.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Here. I know. So after Nathan was released from the hospital, he is still refusing to enter Linda's home and continue to live in the camper. And wouldn't you know, I mean.

[Patrick Hines]

He wants nothing to do with his parents. We're told that we. We barely touch on it. But he's not speaking to either of his parents. It's not just his mom. It's his dad bad.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Too. Why would. You know what I'm.

[Patrick Hines]

Saying? And I'm on Nathan's side with all of.

[Julian Bethevoli]

That. So Linda now decides to change her. Well, my thoughts on this might be a little.

[Patrick Hines]

Controversial. I'm probably with what you're gonna.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Say. We see video of Linda explaining this to Nathan. She's very calm. She's very straightforward. She's very robotic, which is what we. Words that were used to describe Nathan. To me, it sounds like she's communicating in a way that Nathan would.

[Patrick Hines]

Appreciate.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Yes. Because she says, look, you haven't been in this house not even to wash your hands after fishing. This house is very important to.

[Patrick Hines]

Me. Has a lot of memories, has.

[Julian Bethevoli]

A lot of history, and I feel.

[Patrick Hines]

It really needs to stay in the.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Family with somebody who does and will cherish it as much as I do. I feel it really needs to stay in the family with someone who cares about it as much as I do. She's leaving it to someone named Michael. We have no idea who that is. We're not told. Whatever. It doesn't matter. But Linda says, and it's quick and it's, again, very straightforward. And says, john, the grandfather is leaving you, quote, more than enough assets, and you're the sole inheritor of my.

[Patrick Hines]

Trust.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Yeah. You have more than enough. I love you with all my heart. That's my.

[Patrick Hines]

Decision. She's in no way cutting him off. She's just saying, I want this house to be taken care of. We're all on Linda's side.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Right? Like, sure, it's cold, but that's also a word used to describe Nathan. So I think she's like, he wouldn't really give a shit if she was emotional about it. To her, it's a decision. She's not cutting him off. It doesn't sound like a.

[Patrick Hines]

Punishment.

[Julian Bethevoli]

No. He's still going to be a millionaire. A Million times over it now. You know, torture can camp.

[Patrick Hines]

Aside.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Yes. I don't really see, like, the.

[Patrick Hines]

Problem. They're making a lot of bad decisions. This isn't one of.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Them. It just seems like you have everything else. But I'm going to give the house to someone who's not going to demolish it or let it fall into.

[Patrick Hines]

Disrepair.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Exactly. But you still get millions of.

[Patrick Hines]

Dollars. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. And, like, I think Linda's doing the right thing.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Here. This one decision.

[Patrick Hines]

Isolated.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Yes. One little, teeny, tiny, isolated decision. Makes sense to.

[Patrick Hines]

Me. So the cousin is back to tell us that one night when Nathan wasn't speaking to either of his parents, John, the grandfather, shows up with Nathan at this cousin's house and his. Like, he's going to live here now. And because nobody questions the grandfather about anything, hoping for that check on the day that he dies, the cousin's like, okay.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Fine. And also, speaking of money, the grandfather is totally bankrolling Nathan's life. He's giving him $100,000 a year just for.

[Patrick Hines]

Existing.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Yeah. And paying all of his rent or anything. He needs all expenses.

[Patrick Hines]

Paid. But it's certainly not out of the goodness of his heart. There's a lot that, like, Nathan has to do to keep that, you.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Know. Right. No. 100%. So Nathan is just. He's not doing well. He's not getting the treatment he needs. And Elizabeth, the autism legal expert, says it's. And I was kind of like, oh, she says it very plainly. She says, if someone has a major diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder, but they refuse to accept the fact that they have a serious mental illness as well, that can be catastrophic, often with deadly conflict consequences. That is often catastrophic with deadly.

[Patrick Hines]

Consequences. And it made me wonder, like, if police can't discern, like, how. What's really going on with an autistic person when they're interviewing them? Like, can other professionals discern the difference between how he presents as an autistic person and how he presents as a person with a mental illness? Is all of it masked by the way that his behavior is because of his autism? You know what I.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Mean? I mean, we were just talking about Hunted by my husband. This, like, this tunnel vision that these.

[Patrick Hines]

Cops. Pops.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Had. Like, can you stop? Like, I don't like the way he responded to me. I don't like his.

[Patrick Hines]

Tone.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Right. Can we step away from that for a.

[Patrick Hines]

Minute? And also, I think at this point, like, it should be noted that, like, Nathan's. His mental illness isn't manifesting violently yet. It's manifesting as depression, as isolating as, you know, social. Yeah. So it's. It's one of those things that can also be written off. Like, that's just how teenagers are, you know, like, it's hard enough to diagnose mental illness in people who don't have autism. That also affects the way that they are perceived by the world. So he's got, like, the double whammy against him. And he also, we're being told, doesn't want to accept him about.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Himself. Right. And autism or not, there are plenty of people who don't want to accept their mental illness or whatever their diagnosis is. So, like that. That's what I mean. There is a lot of things where it's like, the autism, to me, isn't necessarily 100% relevant. And I'm saying that as, like, no.

[Patrick Hines]

The. And the only reason I'm even bringing it up at all is because I do think it affects the way the world sees. So they might write off any behavior that isn't, quote, normal to the autism, you.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Know? Now here's something interesting. Six months after John the abusive grandfather's murder, very shortly before the homicide, Nathan purchased the weapon out of state with an out of state driver's license. He refused to answer any questions about it. He refused to produce the weapon. And at this juncture, law enforcement, to my knowledge, has no idea where that weapon is. He purchased it out of state or with an out of state driver's.

[Patrick Hines]

License. Now, the timeline here is going to be a little confusing in the sense that we will be told later, quickly, too quickly, that Nathan told the cops he does not own a gun, so that, like, he lied to the police about owning a gun. I just want to say that here because it comes up later, and I was a little confused by.

[Julian Bethevoli]

It.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. So Nathan lied to the cops about owning a gun, which to me is another check in the he didn't.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Category. And when he's asked about it, he pleads the fifth, which, you know, could go either.

[Patrick Hines]

Way. And he pleads the fifth because.

[Julian Bethevoli]

He lied to the cops and he refuses to answer questions about it. He refused to produce the weapon, and to this day, we don't know where that gun.

[Patrick Hines]

Is.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Yeah. Yes. And we're told by the FBI that the ammo used in that weapon matched what was at the crime scene. Now, Martin Nathan's defense lawyer is going to say, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's totally conjecture. What they fail to tell you is that this could have been 600 different types of guns. That had that same.

[Patrick Hines]

Shell. Well, there's two different things being said here. It's the kind of ammunition that gun uses that that kind of gun uses, but you need the actual gun to determine if the bullet came from the actual.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Gun.

[Patrick Hines]

Sure. So, like, this is a check in Nathan's like, yeah, we can't prove that bullet came from that gun because we don't have that.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Gun. Totally heard. I guess that would mean more to me if Nathan had not driven out of state a week before a.

[Patrick Hines]

Murder, lied to the cops about having.

[Julian Bethevoli]

A gun, buy a gun, and then lie about it, and is unable to produce the weapon in any.

[Patrick Hines]

Way.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Yeah. You know, it's kind of like.

[Patrick Hines]

I think Nathan did this, no.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Question. You know, like, I hear, like, totally hear you. Like, I think that's important, too. At the same time, there's a lot. It's not just, like, this is a random gun they found on the side of the.

[Patrick Hines]

Street. Like, just like an attorney being an attorney. It's like, wait a second. Like. Or the cops being the. Because it is true that, like, that is the kind of ammunition that the kind of gun that Nathan bought uses. But, like, we just know from, like, doing documentaries that, like, each gun has a distinctive thing, like a fingerprint. Right. So, like, without that gun, we can't take it, but we can say it comes from the kind of gun that Nathan.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Owns.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. The cousin is here to say I, of all people, was like, Nathan never could have been the one that killed my grandfather. Absolutely not until big reveal, we find out that after the grandfather died, Nathan got an insurance payout of 440,000 doll. $14,000 that didn't have to go through probate. And so then this is when we get the whole thing about, like, the. The memo that was sent before the grandfather.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Died. Right. There was this.

[Patrick Hines]

Memo.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Yeah. While Nathan's grandfather, who's bankrolling his entire life, no questions asked, Nathan wrote to his grandfather's trust and estates.

[Documentary Narrator/Interviewee]

Lawyer. I think one of the biggest.

[Patrick Hines]

Pieces of evidence in this case is he had sent a memo to his grandfather's trust and estates attorney prior to his grandfather's death with very specific questions, unbelievably specific questions, and many of them.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Unbelievably specific questions about the money and who gets the money and when someone gets the money and what would it. What would have to happen so that someone doesn't get the money? And, like, what needs to happen so that Nathan gets all the money.

[Patrick Hines]

As a person who's not going to inherit $10 million, like when you're in a family that's dealing with that kind of money, are those, those kinds of emails common, like, hey, just try to like, understand what's coming to me. Eventually. Someday when somebody dies, like, I feel like it can be seen nefariously. And also it's just like, hey, just checking in. Like, I know it's weird to talk about money, but I'm just curious what I'm looking at as I'm planning my.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Future. I. Sure. I mean, again, I don't have that either. Like, I don't have any experience with that. I've never dealt with any kind of estate. There's not ten and a half million dollars waiting for.

[Patrick Hines]

Me.

[Julian Bethevoli]

No. So I. I don't. I don't.

[Patrick Hines]

Know. Because it looks bad. Like, as presented in the documentary, this looks.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Bad. And it' weird because, like, it feels like to me. And again, this is just based on what we've heard. Like, just ask him, why are we putting this in writing? It feels like if you're planning to kill somebody, why would you write a formal memo putting it in writing, basically, like, tell me how to. Who I have to kill so I get all the money.

[Patrick Hines]

And. But then like, the reverse of that is like, his defense would be like, but if I was going to kill him, would I put it in.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Writing? I don't.

[Patrick Hines]

Know. You know what I mean? That's how they always get, like, that's. That's what they always.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Say. Yeah. Nothing makes any.

[Patrick Hines]

Sense.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Yeah. Now, Nathan has never changed, charged or arrested in connection with his grandfather's.

[Patrick Hines]

Murder. The police, I will say they did write a warrant, so they wanted to get him, but the judge wouldn't sign it. So the police, like, they think he's the.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Guy. Now sister Charlene is here to say something that she did not actually hear it when she said it because she says people had been through a trial and put on death row for less evidence than what they had on Nathan. And I just thought that was. Was just, just insane, you know, why wasn't he even arrested? And I just thought that was insane. Me too, Charlene. I know, but I think it's for different.

[Patrick Hines]

Reasons. Welcome to the resistance, Charlene. I.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Know. What an idiot. Who says that? Do you hear.

[Patrick Hines]

Yourself? I.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Know. How do you not as it's coming out of your mouth like, no, no, no, no, no. Like you just grab the words and put it back in. That happens to me on a regular basis about some pretty fucking benign things, you know, being like, oh my God, you know, how Many times I say to Tom, tom, I know. I think I said this one thing I know is wrong all the.

[Patrick Hines]

Time.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Yes. And for her to be like, people have been killed for less.

[Patrick Hines]

Evidence. And I'm like, I know.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Charlene. You hear.

[Patrick Hines]

Yourself?

[Julian Bethevoli]

Yes. But now we get BFF Linda talking about Linda the mom, and how much she absolutely loved, loved, loved, loved, loved Nathan and did everything for.

[Patrick Hines]

Him.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Yeah. So this is also some conflicting.

[Patrick Hines]

Information. I mean, we also get a story here about a priest who finds Nathan and Linda at a church where Nathan is on the altar with his hands outstretched, begging God for forgiveness. And Linda's in the back watching. We're told this scene goes on for five.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Hours. Now, I'm not being argumentative with you. I'm just asking, like, who told us.

[Patrick Hines]

That? The cousin told us.

[Julian Bethevoli]

That. I don't. The cousin is. I.

[Patrick Hines]

Know. And it's like, if that did happen, then it does imply that Linda knew and Nathan did it. But once again, it's like the cousin also told us that Linda couldn't pass the polygraph test and she took it. How do you know.

[Julian Bethevoli]

That? Because it is also like that abusive guy who was beating the shit out of all the women in his life was totally.

[Patrick Hines]

Fin. Totally fine. Nobody went to prison. I know.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Yeah. Like, Charlene wants us to think she grew up in a quaint little.

[Patrick Hines]

Apartment, but, like, let's think, like, at the end of the day, like, we're all just here because of the money. You know what I mean? Like, all I want to say in grandpa's good grace is to get the.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Check. But what BFF Linda is saying is that Linda was a wonderful mom. From the moment Nathan was born, Linda was trying to do the best for him. That's how her life was just to trying, trying to help her son. She would see something in Nathan and then search and read about it, read about it, read about it, find a specialist constantly. She claims that money was no object for Nathan's mom and that, like, all she wanted to do was research and help him and most importantly, make sure he didn't grow up in this angry, violent household. And so the fact that her abusive, violent father was meddling and interfering so much was. And using her grandson as a.

[Patrick Hines]

Pawn. But that's the thing. Like, Linda, you keep saying you don't want the money, so then go back to California, take your kid and get out of there. The Dunkies franchise didn't work out, and I'm as sad as the next.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Guy, but I think maybe perhaps she sees her Son, that needs a lot of help. And she needs to.

[Patrick Hines]

Bankroll. Yes. And that I understand. You do anything like that for your.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Kids. You know.

[Patrick Hines]

What? I get it. Yeah. So you put up with your shitty dad because you, Linda, you're the only one with an actual reason to put up with all this bullshit. To get the money because your kid needs.

[Julian Bethevoli]

It. And, like, the teen torture camps are super expensive. That's why the parents are the marks. And then to try to undo the damage from the abuse of the expensive teen torture camp. Like, this all costs a lot of.

[Patrick Hines]

Money. Oh, my God. But they're just making it.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Worse. They're making it WOR. At every 100%. So, Mom, Linda now wants to bond with Nathan because he's pulling away because of the torture camp and then the facility. And.

[Patrick Hines]

So. And also kids. Kids just pull away. You know what I mean?

[Julian Bethevoli]

Yeah. But she's, like. Must be feeling guilty about all of that. Like, she just wants to. We're told all she wants to do is help him. And she. Fudgeing, hates fishing. But she's doing it on a regular basis to be close to.

[Patrick Hines]

Her. Parenting is a jungle. I cannot tell you the amount of roadblocks I have to look at. You know what I.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Mean? That's a.

[Patrick Hines]

Game. It's a. It's like a. It's a.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Game.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. I can't even explain it more than that. Like, you do what you got to do.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Lyn. Is it like a building game? It sounds like a building.

[Patrick Hines]

Game. It's one of those. There's, like, the other one that. There's, like, the building game, and they, like. Yeah. I mean, if. If the kids had their way, they would do that and nothing else.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Ever. Is that like the.

[Patrick Hines]

Sims?

[Julian Bethevoli]

Yes. You're, like.

[Patrick Hines]

Building. Yeah. Yep. I don't really get it. I don't really understand it all the time. I'm playing it all the.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Time. Do you have a little.

[Patrick Hines]

Character? No, I just follow.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Daisy. All right, so she hated fishing. She's doing it anyway for him. That's what her BFF is saying. So we are getting some conflicting information. It's just all very.

[Patrick Hines]

Complicated. Yeah. And she's doing the best she can, you know, and then we learned that, like, after John's teaching, the grandfather's death, Nathan, who now. Now Linda's whole family is not speaking to Linda and Nathan because they think that Nathan killed the dad. And Linda's covering for him. Nathan is also not being spoken.

[Documentary Narrator/Interviewee]

To by the family, obviously, after John's death, Nathan. He had bought Property in Vermont. He was studying and learning how to do all the plumbing. He. He did the remodeling inside. He did it all on his.

[Patrick Hines]

Own. So with some of his inheritance money, he buys a house in Vermont and moves there to fix it up. On his.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Own. Yeah, because he sort of is inspired by his grandfather, and, like, his grandfather was a real estate developer. So.

[Patrick Hines]

He. It's like a twofer. He wants to get out of town, and he want. Yeah, he wants to, like, build the.

[Julian Bethevoli]

House. And he was, like, teaching himself how to do it. Like, he's so.

[Patrick Hines]

Smart.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Yes. So he was teaching himself how to do all. Like, to, like. Like, rip up the floors and install plumbing. Like, truly, like, learning how to do it himself and just doing.

[Patrick Hines]

It. Can I tell you, I was a kid, my dad did this. We bought a house in Fairhaven, Massachusetts, and my dad decided he was going to remodel the whole thing himself. We spent a full year of our lives living in a house with no.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Walls. Wow.

[Patrick Hines]

Drafty. Yeah. Then my mom was like, I'm out of here, and I'm a lesbian, and I'm taking the.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Kids.

[Patrick Hines]

Wow. It was.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Drafty. Yeah. That would make anyone a lesbian. Honestly, I can't take it.

[Patrick Hines]

Anymore. My mom's like, I'm a lesbian. But you know what? As your final punishment, Stanley, I'm not going to fix this for.

[Julian Bethevoli]

You.

[Patrick Hines]

Stanley. I could. I know. I was supposed to be Stanley.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Iv.

[Patrick Hines]

Typical. I.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Know. There are three.

[Patrick Hines]

Others. Yes. My devil. I knew my grandfather. Okay. Yeah. Just died recently. Who is.

[Julian Bethevoli]

The. Oh.

[Patrick Hines]

Sorry. That's.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Okay. Who are the other ones? He was probably, like, 100 years.

[Patrick Hines]

Old. He was very old. But my grandpa, I didn't see him since the time I was, like, 15 or something. But I saw a picture of him at the end of his life. Buff as hell. This motherfucker, like, at the end of his. Yeah, like, 88 years old. Like, ripped was wild. Great. You know what I mean? Like, you learn something new every.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Day. May he.

[Patrick Hines]

Rest. I don't do.

[Julian Bethevoli]

It. So let's go back to mom, Linda. His.

[Patrick Hines]

Disappearance.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Yeah. So two weeks after Nathan was rescued, he filed an $85,000 insurance claim for his lost boat. Now, what's.

[Patrick Hines]

Interesting. This is his.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Undoing. What's interesting about this is that the insurance company says, no, no, no, and sues Nathan because apparently Nathan altered the.

[Patrick Hines]

Boat.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Yes. So we're going to learn about trim tabs.

[Patrick Hines]

Everybody. Oh, my.

[Julian Bethevoli]

God. In case you already know about.

[Patrick Hines]

It. I mean, the trim tabs are, like, the little metal Things that you stand on when you're about to jump.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Off the back of the boat, they look like little flippers. Kind of like horizontal flippers.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. But a witness says, I didn't see any fishing poles. I didn't even see him with food. It kind of caught my eye.

[Documentary Narrator/Interviewee]

When I saw him leaning over the.

[Patrick Hines]

Back and drilling two holes. He saw Nathan Carmen, and he's bending over and reaching to the back.

[Documentary Narrator/Interviewee]

Of the boat with a drill in.

[Patrick Hines]

His hand that had a hole saw bit on.

[Documentary Narrator/Interviewee]

It. He removed the trim tabs from the boat that.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Day. The day before the fishing trip, he saw Nathan drilling on his boat. He was there for one purpose, and it was like to drill the.

[Patrick Hines]

Boat. This guy's name was Mike Iazi. I just like the name. I wrote it down because I thought it was.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Fun. It's fun to say Mike.

[Patrick Hines]

Gyazzi. Yeah, he probably owns a donkey.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Franchise.

[Patrick Hines]

Probably. You know what I mean? Some of us get to live the.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Dream. Some of us do, you know, Some of us don't. Exactly says the girl without a Dunkies.

[Patrick Hines]

Franchise. I want it to be like Ruth's Chris Steakhouse, where it's like Mike's Dunkin's.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Donuts. That name makes me.

[Patrick Hines]

Crazy. Ruth's Chris Steak's Chris. I know. It's because Ruth bought it from Chris, but she loved it so much that she didn't want to change the.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Name. Well, she.

[Patrick Hines]

Did. Well, she did. You're right. But she kept Chris's name on.

[Julian Bethevoli]

It. Ruth, you still changed.

[Patrick Hines]

It. Ruth, you.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Did. Don't split hairs with me here. You changed it. Now we got Rand random S's and apostrophes.

[Patrick Hines]

Everywhere. You're right about that. Ruth's.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Chris. He still changed it. Ruth. Anyway, so trim tabs. So Nathan had removed the trim. They're like these metal flaps on the back of the boat. And he took them off. And so what they're telling us that he created a situation where there are now holes in the.

[Patrick Hines]

Boat. This is how the boat sinks. And the only reason we know this is because Nathan filed that $85,000. If he had never filed the claim, if he just let that go, they never would have gotten him on.

[Julian Bethevoli]

This. And so then the other point is like, so then if he did did it, then why would he file this claim if he's just. If this is just going to be his.

[Patrick Hines]

Undoing? But that's the. That's the whole thing.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Right? But like, a judge rules that the boat sank because of what Nathan did to the boat. So he loses the insurance claim.

[Patrick Hines]

The judge says direct or indirect result of his faulty repairs. So the judge is leaving the door open for that. He did this on.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Purpose. Well, now the feds are.

[Patrick Hines]

Involved.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Exactly. So. Because they say that Nathan set out to kill his mother and his grandfather, and this is all about getting all of the grandfather's money and maybe a little, little bit of revenge. So he's arrested and charged with murder on the high seas, which to. I, I'm telling you, I'm shocked. That's not the name of a Columbo.

[Patrick Hines]

Episode. Oh, I murder the high seas. I feel like it's got to.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Be an Agatha Christie murder on the high.

[Patrick Hines]

Seas. So.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Good. I'm like, that's not. We have. Not by the.

[Patrick Hines]

Book. He's got to walk the plank.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Eventually. We have. By dawn's early light, we have the.

[Patrick Hines]

Columbo. So dark, the waves on Biscayne.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Bay. Oh, my God. Not a Columbo.

[Patrick Hines]

Episode.

[Julian Bethevoli]

No. So Nathan claims he was at sea for seven days in the life raft. And this is where we're really. They really break down. Why? That's impossible. People are saying the word. It's impossible. There is no way that he could have been in the raft for seven days is what we're.

[Patrick Hines]

Told. Yeah. And so, like, once again, like, Eric from the Coast Guard is just saying, like, pointing to, like, his ability to like, swim in the ocean, pull himself up on the life ring, walk up that ladder. They're saying it would be absolutely impossible.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Physiologically. They say there's no.

[Patrick Hines]

Way. Nathan's attorneys bring in a damn good looking Navy seal, a guy named Mike. And Mike is saying, in that.

[Documentary Narrator/Interviewee]

Situation when you know that's your potential rescue, possibly your only rescue, your adrenaline is going to kick up no matter how exhausted you are. And I've been in those situations where extreme heat conditions in Iraq, guys are dehydrated, they're exhausted. And when we had an extract under contact, you saw the guys almost pop out of that exhaustion, that dehydration and go into.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Action. It's all the.

[Patrick Hines]

Adrenaline. Exactly right. And like. So, like, is that what happened with.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Nathan? So it's a battle of the.

[Patrick Hines]

Experts.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Yes. One side is saying, there's no way this is possible. The other expert is saying, well, it's absolutely.

[Patrick Hines]

Possible. Okay, remember the beginning when I said these boats have, like, if the boat sinks bag. It's called a ditch.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Bag. Oh, I like.

[Patrick Hines]

That. A ditch.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Bag. I like that. Like a go.

[Patrick Hines]

Bag. Yeah. Or like, like if you want to ditch the boat and get in the.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Life.

[Patrick Hines]

Totally. It's a ditch.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Bag. So excellent.

[Patrick Hines]

Segway. Thank you so.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Much. What did Nathan have in the life raft? He had emergency food rations. We're not sure how much or how long it would.

[Patrick Hines]

Last.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Yeah. And now they're going to spend 15 minutes on this handheld emergency water maker. It turns salt water into drinking water. And everyone is going to say how insane this is. And they've never once heard of anyone ever having.

[Patrick Hines]

This. I.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Know. Again, no pun intended. Does not hold water for me. I think it's actually a really smart thing to.

[Patrick Hines]

Have. I don't know why you wouldn't have.

[Julian Bethevoli]

It. I don't. When they were. I was like, this is the big. You know what I mean? Moment. He had something that turns water into the.

[Patrick Hines]

Water. Next time I go to the beach, I'm gonna take one of those with me. I'm not gonna go all the way to the bar for a glass of water. If I can just do it by magic, like Jesus in the. In the. In the.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Ocean. If I had a 31 foot aluminum boat that looks kind of ranky dance, I'd want to be like, when this. When this thing.

[Patrick Hines]

Sinks?

[Julian Bethevoli]

Yes. When I'm in an emergency situation, I'm gonna get a little thirsty out.

[Patrick Hines]

There. Why wouldn't you have, like, a ditch.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Bag? Why isn't all the standard. I don't get.

[Patrick Hines]

It. Unless it weighs 700 pounds and costs a million dollars, why wouldn't everybody have one of.

[Julian Bethevoli]

These? It just.

[Patrick Hines]

Seems.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Yeah. Totally reasonable and.

[Patrick Hines]

Normal. Suddenly I'm a Nathan didn't do it.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Or. But, like. Because now we're going to hear from John Elder Robison. He's. He's the defense's autism expert, and he has autism. And he says he was like, this makes total sense.

[Documentary Narrator/Interviewee]

Yes. He says, you had Nathan's autistic people like me, and by extension, people like him. Those traits to have structure and planning are part of. Part of our autism. But, you know, people tend to.

[Patrick Hines]

Think we are up to.

[Documentary Narrator/Interviewee]

Something. We're tricky, we're devious, or we're just.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Dummies. It's a, quote, trait of autism. And it's not unusual that Nathan would have everything from top to bottom that you could possibly need, whether it's realistic or.

[Patrick Hines]

Not.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Yes. And he said, like, this is a total nothing burger for me. I agree with this guy. And he goes, I have the same traits. And he says people tend to think we're either up to something or devious or that we're just.

[Patrick Hines]

Dummies. Yes. I mean, and that was very well said. But also, I don't think you gotta be up to something to be the guy with the ditch bag with the water maker. You know what I.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Mean? I think that you should have those emergency bags on anything where, like, you.

[Patrick Hines]

Could. We should be changing laws. You should have to have a ditch bag with a water.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Maker. Yeah, I think that's crazy. I think it's crazy that they. That the FBI is like, see? And then they're like, shut up, Jillian. We have more evidence. And I'm like, whoa. Well, I take it down a.

[Patrick Hines]

Notch. And this evidence is compelling because they're saying that, like, science tells us that there's no way he could have sank where he sank at the time he said he sank based on where he was founded. And for this, they're using a thing called drift analysis, which, like, we're going be told it's junk science, but then we're told it absolutely isn't. I'm with.

[Julian Bethevoli]

You. The Coast Guard, they have ways to figure out how far something or someone will drift and in what direction. And they use, like, the weight and the size of the vessel, the current environmental factors. And all of this information is constantly being updated, monitored by, like, buoys and sensors and satellites. It's a real thing. It's.

[Patrick Hines]

Like. And it's used by, like, major climate scientists. Like, it seems to be at the very. It's like, okay, if they were off by, like, 150ft. Feet or whatever, fine. But, like, at the end of the day, Nathan was 80 miles from where he should have been if the boat went down where he said it.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Went down, according to the drift.

[Patrick Hines]

Analysis.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Yeah. And so the defense is like, junk science, and the journalist is like, yeah, no, no, this is just data, and data doesn't.

[Patrick Hines]

Lie.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So. And honestly, I feel like we can take the journalist's word for it because he's the most impartial person we're going to meet.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Here. He's the one that was like, first I was amazed, and then I was confused and.

[Patrick Hines]

Concerned.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Yes. So this is now where the prosecution or the FBI or whatever starts to lose me.

[Patrick Hines]

Entirely.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Yeah. Because their theory, I think, is, in a word, ridiculous, because they have all of this evidence, but then the way they tie it all together, I'm like.

[Patrick Hines]

Really? That's interesting, because I thought this was plausible, like, what he.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Did. We're going to get into what their theory is, which I am a little confused by. But. But the last big, like, bum, bum, bum is they can't find the life raft, because very soon after Nathan got off the raft, it, like, fully deflated and sun into the.

[Patrick Hines]

Ocean. Like, he sunk the raft. Like, he got out of the raft and he stabbed it or broke it in some way that made.

[Julian Bethevoli]

It. Because he was on it perfectly for seven days. And then the minute he's off it, it is now going into, like, the best crime scene.

[Patrick Hines]

Ever. Well, because what, the ocean forever? Right. Best crime scene for the killer. Because what they're saying is that.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Nathan did not want us to see the condition of the life raft, what was still on the life raft, what equipment he did or didn't have on the life raft. Because it may very well demonstrate that he was not on that life raft for seven.

[Patrick Hines]

Days. There's no way he was on that life raft for seven days. And he needed to sink that life raft so that we wouldn't be able to tell that he wasn't on it for seven.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Days. And no one has answered. And correct me if I'm wrong, maybe it was just quick. When did his mother disappear? Well, I mean, on what.

[Patrick Hines]

Day? There is no.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Answer. There's no.

[Patrick Hines]

Answer. We will be. We'll get Nathan's version of it, but we don't really.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Know. But early in the beginning of the week, at the end of the week, we don't.

[Patrick Hines]

Know. We don't know. Well, I mean, I don't think that she would have stayed away from her cell phone for seven days willingly, of.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Course. No, no, no. I like, in the journey of.

[Patrick Hines]

This harrowing, I think that she died on day.

[Julian Bethevoli]

One. I.

[Patrick Hines]

Agree. But like the prosecutors are saying, the most plausible scenario of what really happened was that after leaving Judith Point, which is apparently, like, where they took off from on Saturday night, he killed his mother, disposed of the body nowhere near Block island, which was where their original intended destination was, which Coast Guard would be searching. Which is exactly where the Coast Guard would be searching. Exactly. And then he goes to the Connecticut coast because it's where he knows and he knows he can hide in plain sight because he knows the Coast Guard is going to be searching that area around Block Island. So he gets out of there, goes to the Connecticut coast where he knows it, and he knows they won't be.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Looking. But that's the thing that kind of was like that. Doesn't that feel like a big risk that he. Because they say, oh, you know, like, he was on the coastline and there are plenty of nooks and crannies that he could hide in. And I'm like, for Someone who we're told is meticulous and has all of his emergency stuff and, like, all his rations. It feels like a big risk to me, but maybe I don't know anything about this kind of.

[Patrick Hines]

Thing. I mean, to me, it just seemed like the easiest, most calculated.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Solution. You did a look over.

[Patrick Hines]

There. Yeah. And, like, the boat is nondescript. I don't see, like, a name on the boat, even if. But I don't see it written on the boat. You know what I.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Mean?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Is.

[Julian Bethevoli]

It? Is it. Let me check the picture. Let me go. Go to the videotape. I have it. Oh, God. Now I'm in the nautical mile part of the program. It says chickenpox on it from Plymouth, and it says the.

[Patrick Hines]

Location. Well, okay, then. Then I do think that there's a hole in the story, because, I mean, unless he's able to cover the boat. It's a small boat. Like, if they're saying he's, like, slipped into some port somewhere where he's able to cover the boat over that. Yeah. I mean, like, this does make sense to me that, like, he hides her in plain sight. Then he's, like, got his nose to the ground about big cargo ships that are going because that cargo. Cargo ship left from Providence. So maybe he is able to learn when a big ship that will be passing along this way is going to be leaving. And then they say after the.

[Documentary Narrator/Interviewee]

Coast Guard had called off their search, he gets in the chickenpox, guns it out to the open.

[Patrick Hines]

Ocean. He then got into the life raft and scuttled the.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Boat. He would have sunk the boat shortly before the freighter came within view so that he would be properly positioned.

[Patrick Hines]

To become rescued, sink the boat, get into the lifeboat that he's only in for, like, an.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Hour. Because after the Coast Guard calls off the search, he's like, okay, great. Like, now I can sort of reappear, is what they're.

[Patrick Hines]

Saying. Yeah. And like, this makes sense to me. Like, he sunk the lifeboat. Like, there's no way even in his own story that. That. That it was perfectly floating for seven straight days and it just happens to sink the minute he's.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Rescued. Because what they're also saying is that, like. So after the Coast Guard calls off the search, that's when he guns his little boat out into the open.

[Patrick Hines]

Ocean.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Yes. And gets into the life raft and he deliberately sank his own boat thanks to the holes he.

[Patrick Hines]

Drilled.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Exactly. That's what they're saying. That's why, like, we can't find the boat. And that's why this and this. So that's what the theory is. But I. I am a little bit stuck on, like, he's just, like, chilling in the.

[Patrick Hines]

Connecticut.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Yeah. Connecticut.

[Patrick Hines]

Coast. I mean, like, that seems possible to me. The thing that nobody mentions, but that really stuck out to me was he's not sunburned. You know what I.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Mean? That's a.

[Patrick Hines]

Hu. That's a huge thing, and nobody mentions it. They say not to hydrate. I mean, he's got the water maker. You know what I mean? Got his ditch bag. But he's not dehydrated. And, like, we see the.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Life. I mean, or weak in any way. Like. Like, those rations are meant to keep you alive, not fully, fully sustain.

[Patrick Hines]

You.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Exactly. You know, like. And you should be weak and because we're told, like, he's not using his muscles at all. Yeah, allegedly. Or whatever. And also, the ocean is a great place to commit a crime. Evidence is lost immediately. It's.

[Patrick Hines]

Enormous. It's all those aliens down.

[Julian Bethevoli]

There. And.

[Patrick Hines]

Whale. You know what I mean? But, like, you know, his own lawyers are like, what's the kid going here? There. He's evading the Coast Guard. That's what they're saying. And did he plan that? This Chinese junk ship that just happened to be going by, it almost ran him over. I understand. That would. He would be picked up. It's nonsense. They're like, this is insane. They're saying what you're saying. How could he possibly outmaneuver the Coast Guard? How could he hide in plain sight for some seven straight days at the very.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Least? It just feels like a risk for someone who. If he was so meticulous about everything else. It feels like a big thing to leave up to chance. But I don't know.

[Patrick Hines]

Anything. High risk, high reward. You get away with this, you get all your mom's.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Money. Or as they say in Aida, fortune favors the.

[Patrick Hines]

Brave. Fortune favors the.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Brave. But then they show us footage of Nathan talking about his mother's last moments. Kind of, yes. And also, this is like, he's. This is his deposition. He's objecting in his own deposition. Like, doesn't he have a lawyer.

[Patrick Hines]

There? That's what I said. Like, he's like. Like, I'm like, is he representing himself? Because we don't hear an attorney for.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Him. Anyone step in for.

[Patrick Hines]

Him? Yeah, but.

[Julian Bethevoli]

He. I mean, could there be a lawyer that's silent, but any. The lawyers that we.

[Patrick Hines]

Met.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Yeah. Would not stay silent, but.

[Patrick Hines]

Whatever.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Right? So he. Nathan says he was in the water he was watching the boat sink. He said, I did not hear my mom. I didn't hear.

[Patrick Hines]

Anything. And, like, that's what they were saying, but, like, your mom's a strong.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Swimmer and the boat sinking. Would one of you be screaming.

[Patrick Hines]

The boat is, like, sinking. And, like, he's. Seems to not have an answer. He's stumbling over his words. He doesn't have an.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Answer. He seems like he's in distress answering this. Like, is that his guilt? Is that trauma because of the horrible thing that he just went through and surviving after all that time. I don't.

[Patrick Hines]

Know.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Right. So we get the onscreen text that lawyers spent over a year preparing for the trial, which was set for October of.

[Patrick Hines]

2023. Yeah. And just before the trial, we.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Begin at five with a shocking update on a case which been tracking for years. The man charged with killing his mother off the coast of Rhode island has died. Nathan Carmen was found unresponsive in his cell overnight. Jail officials say Nathan Carmen took his own life while awaiting a murder on the high seas.

[Patrick Hines]

Trial. Nathan kills.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Himself.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. That took my breath away. I. I mean, I did like a. I did not see that.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Coming. I wasn't expecting that.

[Patrick Hines]

Either.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Yeah. And then it's like, well, why.

[Patrick Hines]

Right? They say that he killed himself using prison shoelaces, but they.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Don'T. That's why they don't have shoelaces in.

[Patrick Hines]

Prison. And there's no suicide note. The dad is devastated. You know, the dad is sticking to his guns. There's no way Nathan ever could have killed his mother. He loved her. He would never have harmed a soul. You know, Charlene is saying, like, the family mourns the loss. The loss of Nathan as a kid. And she's crying over the fact that she wasn't speaking to her sister at the time that she.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Died. Choices were made, Charlene. And it's weird that you didn't have a bad word to say about your abusive father. And he had a lot to gain from his death is all I'm.

[Patrick Hines]

Saying. Exactly. And from your sister's death, if we're being.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Honest. That's what I mean. You know what I mean? And that's what I mean. You know what I mean. I'm annoying. Linda Carmen was officially declared dead in October of 2023, and the investigation into her death has been.

[Patrick Hines]

Closed. But this is what happens. Like the murder of John the grandfather is now classified as a cold case. No other suspects have ever been arrested. And this always happens, too. After his death, all charges against Nathan Carmen were.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Dismissed.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. That happened to fucking Robert.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Durst. I.

[Patrick Hines]

Know. You.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Know? I.

[Patrick Hines]

Know. And that's it. I mean, it's a mystery, but. But I think he killed them.

[Julian Bethevoli]

All. Yes. Oh.

[Patrick Hines]

God. I know. Sorry. That's a Durst throwback, everybody. No, I think he did it. Do you.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Think? I, I. There is so much evidence that I can't look away from that I can't explain any other.

[Patrick Hines]

Way.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Yeah. Do you know what I.

[Patrick Hines]

Mean?

[Julian Bethevoli]

Yes. And it has. Please understand how I'm saying this has nothing to do with his.

[Patrick Hines]

Autism. Of.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Course. You know what I.

[Patrick Hines]

Mean? Despite the fact that I think he did it, he should not have been questioned in the way that he was. Question. Like, no.

[Julian Bethevoli]

No. And. And not all of it could be like, well, he's been taking. You know what I'm saying? It's just like, it's not connected to me. I'm looking at the evidence.

[Patrick Hines]

Here. No, I mean, I'm looking at, like, the missing hour when his grandfather died. I'm looking at, like, all of the. The ditch bag and the. You know what I mean, the fact that he wasn't. The Lifeboat sank the minute he got out of.

[Julian Bethevoli]

It. I.

[Patrick Hines]

Know. Come.

[Julian Bethevoli]

On. I.

[Patrick Hines]

Know. He was in it for seven days, but then it just.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Sank. And also, if we're gonna have cops tell on themselves that they don't give a shit about, like, people who aren't, quote, normal. Can we, like, try to do something to, like, fix the system in any.

[Patrick Hines]

Way?

[Julian Bethevoli]

No. Great. Moving.

[Patrick Hines]

On. Oh, my God, girl. We did. What's it called? The Carmen family.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Murders. The Carmen family.

[Patrick Hines]

Deaths. You're right. The Carmen family.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Deaths. Very, very, very important distinction made by Netflix.

[Patrick Hines]

Fam. Join our Patreon, but only if you want more amazing fun content. There is so, so, so much stuff over there. Just go to the show notes. You can click right to it. Join our discord also in the show notes. What are we doing next.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Girl? Oh, Everyone guard your loins. Get ready. Homicide Hunter. The man with no Face. Starring the one and only Joe.

[Patrick Hines]

Kenda. Oh, we did. We got to that.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Fast. We got to it fast. So it's on Discovery. Plus he has three of the. He has, like, 100 episodes of, like, four different.

[Patrick Hines]

Shows.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Okay. But he has, like, three or four full length docs. I figure we'll sprinkle them.

[Patrick Hines]

In. Oh, let's do.

[Julian Bethevoli]

It. So this is the man with no Face. This is the first one that's out there. It's on.

[Documentary Narrator/Interviewee]

Discovery. All.

[Julian Bethevoli]

Right. Joe Kendall on the.

[Patrick Hines]

Calendar. Well, here we go, fam. Stay tuned for the trailer for that. And we love.

[Julian Bethevoli]

You. We love you. Stay safe.

[Patrick Hines]

Please. Okay, bye. I was good at what I.

[Documentary Narrator/Interviewee]

Did, but this case was so different. You have no place to go in a murder.

[Patrick Hines]

Case. It eats at.

[Documentary Narrator/Interviewee]

You. What did we not.

[Patrick Hines]

See? 1988. DNA was just beginning to be a forensic tool. He's still out.

[Documentary Narrator/Interviewee]

There. That's why I don't sleep at night. What kept this case alive was everyone involved knew the DNA was coming. Well, my, my, my. That is what we've been waiting.

[Patrick Hines]

For. Homicide hunter, the man with no face. Wednesday, March 8th at 9.