Death in Apartment 603: What Happened to Ellen Greenberg? Ep 1 (from the Patreon feed)

Summary

True Crime Obsessed – Ep 486: Death in Apartment 603: What Happened to Ellen Greenberg? (Part 1)

Release Date: February 22, 2026
Podcast Hosts: Patrick Hinds & Gillian Pensavalle
Subject: Hulu’s docuseries "Death in Apartment 603," Episode 1 – “Homicide or Suicide?”
Case: The suspicious 2011 death of Ellen Greenberg

---

Overview

The episode kicks off TCO’s coverage of the Hulu series about the mysterious death of Ellen Greenberg, a 27-year-old teacher found dead in her Philadelphia apartment. Officially ruled a suicide despite more than 20 stab wounds (including on her back), the case has become notorious for its investigative failures, odd circumstances, and unanswered questions about the involvement of her fiancé, Sam.

Patrick and Gillian approach the case with characteristic humor, outrage, and deep empathy—unpacking documentary details, sharing personal asides, and repeatedly questioning both the official narrative and the motives of those involved.

---

Main Topic and Purpose

Main Theme:
The hosts scrutinize the deeply suspicious circumstances around Ellen Greenberg’s death, the apparent mishandling by authorities, and the alarming rush to rule her death a suicide. Their aim is to highlight everything that doesn’t add up, leaning into the central question posed by the Hulu series: Was Ellen’s death truly a suicide or a homicide disguised as one?

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Case Overview & First Impressions

• Ellen Greenberg was found dead by her fiancé, Sam, in 2011.
• Initial ruling: homicide. Quickly switched to suicide despite serious doubts.
• Quote [02:27, Patrick]: “How was this ruled a suicide? It just does not add up.”

2. Ellen’s Personality, Life, and Relationships

• Described as loving, bubbly, and generous by friends and family.
• Close-knit circle of family and friends. Especially best friend Alison and cousin Debbie.
• Met Sam via a blind date—relationship began long-distance (he worked for the Golf Channel).

Quotes:

• Allison, via Gillian [05:00]: “She was beautiful with killer hair… hands down, full stop, my best friend. She was my person.”
• Sandy, Ellen’s mom [04:36]: “I couldn't wait to get up and be her mom.”

3. The Relationship with Sam & Red Flags

• Sam was initially adored by friends/family. Helpful, attentive, and “charismatic.”
• Three-year relationship, engaged, planning a wedding.
• Patrick and Gillian are suspicious about Sam—especially his sudden switch from being the affectionate partner to being angry and erratic on the night of Ellen’s death.
• The hosts question whether Ellen’s father’s reservations about Sam reflect unspoken concerns.

Quote [09:12, Josh (Ellen’s dad)]: “Fathers always have reservations about their daughter getting engaged.”

4. The Day of Ellen’s Death: Timeline and Key Events

• Storm day: Schools dismissed early—a classic nor’easter in Philly (lots of amusing snow day anecdotes from Patrick and Gillian).
• Ellen came home to her apartment early. Sam left for the gym.
• Neighbors recall Sam pacing, pounding on the locked apartment door, sending frantic and then angry texts to Ellen (who never responds).
• Sam repeatedly gives extra information to the concierge (Phil) about being locked out.

Quote [17:12, Sam’s text]: “I need to get in the fucking unit.”

• After about an hour of “trying” to reach Ellen, Sam breaks down the door and claims to find her unresponsive with blood everywhere—a knife sticking out of her chest.

5. The 911 Call and Its Bizarre Details

• Sam’s call to 911 is long on backstory, short on action. He fails to ask for urgent help, instead explaining where he was and that the door was latched.
• His first explanation is that “she stabbed herself” and “she fell on a knife”—which both hosts and interviewees agree is not how an innocent person reacts.

Quote [19:29, Sam]: “There’s a knife sticking out of her heart.”
Gillian’s analysis [19:45]: “Nobody in the history of the world has ever [found] a person with a knife in their body and said the words ‘they stabbed themselves.’ … That is insane.”

6. Police Response and Crime Scene Management (or Lack Thereof)

• Police and medical examiner quickly declare it a suicide.
• Crime scene was not preserved; evidence not collected, photos not taken, and the apartment was professionally cleaned almost immediately.
• Sam’s uncle and another man gain access soon after, collecting only Ellen’s electronics.
• Gillian repeatedly asks why Sam—and not Ellen’s family—was allowed to remove her possessions, especially her laptop and phone.

Quote [44:14, Gillian]: “That was that, and just like that, any possible investigation is officially out the window.”

7. Investigative Missteps and Sketchy Behavior

• Melissa, building manager, calls out police for bringing her to the apartment with their guns drawn, and being generally unprepared.
• Neighbors and the hosts question why police took Sam’s account at face value and walked away—seemingly indifferent to the forensic impossibility of stabbing oneself in the back.
• Marks in blood on the kitchen floor suggest movement or a struggle—overlooked by investigators.

Quote [48:38, Patrick]: “Would the cops in the moment have determined this a suicide if they knew she had, quote, stabbed herself in the back, which is impossible?”

8. Ellen’s Mental Health and Job Stress

• Ellen was struggling at work—teaching first grade, class sizes of 30-40, overwhelmed and exhausted, but not isolated in her struggle.
• Wanted to quit, but was discouraged by Sam and her parents, who pushed her toward therapy and medication instead.
• Friends and family describe her as acting “not herself” in the weeks before her death—“the light was gone,” but none suspected imminent suicide.

Quote [36:40, Ellen’s texts]: “Will you hate me if I leave my job? … I don’t want to, but it’s getting out of hand.”

9. Family Reactions and Aftermath

• Ellen’s parents only learn about the homicide ruling at her funeral—news travels among the community before it reaches them officially.
• Friends and family deeply skeptical of suicide explanation; cannot accept that Ellen would take her life violently.
• The funeral is tense, with a clear divide between Sam’s and Ellen’s families, and Sam’s conspicuous, dramatic displays of grief (“wailing”).

Quote [46:57, Sam, as reported by friends]: “She did this to herself.”

10. Forensic Analysis, “Second Opinions,” and Ongoing Questions

• Forensic pathologists, including Dr. Michelle Dupree, affirm the medical examiner should have visited the scene and catalogued all injuries and evidence.
• Half of Ellen’s wounds (including the ones in her back) only discovered during autopsy; questions mount as to the plausibility of suicide.
• Pathologist initially rules Ellen’s death as homicide, then later switches to suicide, allegedly based on a meeting with authorities.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• [02:27, Patrick, exasperated]: “How was this ruled a suicide? It just does not add up.”
• [16:22, Gillian, questioning neighbor Mark’s account]: “Mark also says a word that stopped me in my tracks…trying to coax her to come to the door and let him in. And I was like, ‘coax her?’...”
• [18:30, Patrick, on Sam’s 911 call]: “If you walked into your apartment and saw Mike [unconscious], the only words out of your mouth would be, ‘I need an ambulance…’”
• [19:29, Sam’s 911 call]: “There’s a knife sticking out of her heart.”
• [19:45, Gillian, analysis]: “Nobody in the history of the world has ever [found] a person with a knife in their body and said the words ‘they stabbed themselves.’ … That is insane.”
• [21:04, Firefighter to Phil]: “See, you don’t need an ambulance. You need a homicide detective.”
• [44:14, Gillian, about the cleaning crew]: “That was that and just like that, any possible investigation is officially out the window.”
• [46:57, Sam, as reported by friends]: “She did this to herself.”
• [51:00, Gillian, on Sam at the funeral]: “He was wailing, right? ...It was a lot.”

---

Important Segment Timestamps

• [00:01–01:57]: Episode setup, brief case context, initial reactions.
• [03:46–08:33]: Ellen’s life, friendships, meeting Sam, relationship beginnings.
• [10:57–16:12]: Day of the storm, school dismissal, Ellen returns home.
• [16:49–18:43]: Sam locked out, texts, agitation, breaks in, 911 call.
• [22:23–26:03]: Timeline breakdown, Sam’s behavior, suspicion, possible alibi building.
• [28:17–30:40]: Crime scene mismanagement, police/policy failures, family notifications.
• [31:03–36:24]: Ellen’s engagement, job struggles, behavioral changes, failed pleas for support.
• [40:22–44:24]: Crime scene cleanup, evidence mishandling, electronics taken by Sam’s uncle.
• [46:19–48:38]: Friends/family disbelief, medical examiner, autopsy findings.
• [49:50–52:00]: Homicide ruling at funeral, fallout, communal shock, and tension.

---

Conclusion & Next Steps

Patrick and Gillian wrap episode one in profound disbelief over both the case’s facts and the investigative failures. They underscore the tragedy of Ellen’s story—not just the loss of a vibrant young woman, but how possible justice was erased by carelessness or complicity.

As the episode closes, questions about the other “shift” in Ellen before her death, Sam’s role, and the authorities’ motivations are left pressing. The hosts promise more in-depth analysis and outrage in subsequent episodes.

---

Overall Tone & Takeaway

• The hosts blend dark humor (“Phil in his pink jacket,” “rent-style relationship maps”) with righteous indignation.
• They refuse to accept the official suicide narrative and push listeners to question every institutional action and motivation.
• Their storytelling style makes the episode as much about the failures of justice as about Ellen herself.

---

For Further Listening

All three episodes of TCO’s coverage of “Death in Apartment 603” are available ad-free on their Patreon.

Transcript

[A]

Hey, fam. Patrick here, fam. We are so excited to be sharing Episode 1 of our Patreon coverage of the excellent Hulu series death in apartment 603. What happened to Ellen Greenberg? So this series is tragic and it is a rabbit hole. It's about a 27 year old woman named Ellen Greenberg who was found dead in her apartment. Her fiance found her and when the authorities arrived, he told them that she killed herself and they basically just took him at his word. No investigation was done and the crime scene was not preserved. Can't you just hear Jillian screaming? So when evidence began to surface that maybe this wasn't a suicide and wasn't the fiance the last one to see her, you can begin to understand how many questions there are in this case and how nothing in this story is what it seems. So all three episodes of our coverage are available right now and ad free at the five dollar tier. On our Patreon there's a link in the show notes and on our Patreon you'll find almost 500 full ad free bonus episodes covering all the long form series you want to hear us scream about. From Netflix to Hulu to HBO Max and the rest of them. But for now, fam, enjoy episode one and we love you. Hi, Julie Madamelli.

[B]

Hello, Patrick Hines.

[A]

What are we doing today, girl?

[B]

We are starting a new series. It's three episodes. It's called Death in Apartment 603. What happen happened to Ellen Greenberg? This is a super highly requested case. Yeah, it's been out in the world for a while and so finally there's been a doc about it.

[A]

This is now the new thing that keeps me up at night.

[B]

I know.

[A]

It is insane.

[B]

It's on Hulu. It's three episodes. This is episode one. It's called homicide or suicide. I have my answer, but I'll tell you when we get there.

[A]

I mean, it's pretty obvious it's not the first one, everybody. Well, we'll get exactly.

[B]

I mean, my God.

[C]

Beyonce's on the floor with blood everywhere. Please hurry. There's a knife sticking out of her heart. Oh, no.

[B]

It was January of 2011 when Greenberg was discovered dead by her fiance. She suffered more than 20 stab wounds. Philadelphia medical examiner initially ruled Greenberg's death a homicide before switching it to suicide.

[A]

How was this ruled a suicide? It just does not add up.

[B]

I have investigated stabbing suicides in my career, but I've never seen anyone stab themselves in the back. Everyone realized how strange and twisted this case was.

[A]

We had been told there may have been A meeting information was shared that convinced the medical examiner to change from homicide to suicide.

[B]

I was shocked. The medical examiner's office, the police department, the district attorney's office, all the way to Governor Josh Shapiro back when he was Attorney General. These agencies consistently maintain their findings of suicide. I that was that.

[A]

So many errors happened in this case. You don't have investigation. You don't have a held crime scene.

[B]

That's not right. Does the evidence match the story that we're hearing? Pretty much all of that is negative. It is our responsibility to Ellen to find out the truth.

[C]

If you want to get away with a homicide, have it declared a suicide.

[B]

Death in apartment 603. What happened to Ellen Greenberg? Only on Hulu.

[A]

Well, we start in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, 1998. We meet Allison. She is Ellen's best friend. And we learn about Ellen. She just sounds amazing.

[B]

She gave her time and energy to everybody around her and did it without wanting anything in return.

[A]

Like we see a lot of home movies, which I love. She just is bubbly and sweet and fun and she wanted to make everybody feel good and welcome and she did all of it without wanting anything in return.

[B]

Yeah. I love how Alison says when you were around her, you just felt like you belonged. That's like a really beautiful way to say it.

[A]

We meet mom, Sandy spelled S A, N, D, E E. We've got two listeners, Candy and Mandy.

[B]

Love, two E's, double E's, double E's, love.

[A]

I'm obsessed with.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Hi gals.

[B]

That's great. Hey, gals. Sandy just says like we were so proud of her.

[A]

And she says this thing that like she goes, I couldn't wait to get

[B]

up in and be her mom. I wrote that down too.

[A]

I don't feel that way. I love my child. I love being her dad, but I don't jump out of bed every morning. Always psyched to parent.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know what I mean. But there are some people who you can just tell because Sandy also wanted more kids. And she says for whatever reason, that didn't work out. And having one healthy kid is like enough to be grateful for.

[B]

Of course.

[A]

She was like the apple of her parents eye.

[B]

Yeah. Alison says she was beautiful with killer hair. Quote Allison. She's kind and generous. And Alan says, look, Ellen, hands down, full stop. My best friend. She says she was my person.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They were there for each other through everything, like every stage of life, you name it, they were there for each other.

[A]

I'm always jealous of people who have friends like that. I have one friend her name is Allison. She's a listener. She's my only friend.

[B]

Not this Allison.

[A]

Different Allison. Just as awesome, but different. Oh, Allison, I hope you never have to be in a documentary about me. Oh, my God. But, like, you know, there's people who have those, like, lifelong friends that they're still super close with. Yeah, I think that's amazing.

[B]

It is amazing.

[A]

But Allison and Ellen, they went to Penn State together. They moved to Philly together. They live in a part of town called Mani Unk.

[B]

Yeah. Mani On. Yeah.

[A]

Which is like the cool young area. It's like the Williamsburg.

[B]

Yeah. I had a friend who lives there.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

Yeah. Long, long, long time.

[A]

Did they like it?

[B]

They did, yeah.

[A]

Seems like a cool part of Philly. I don't think I've ever been there.

[B]

Yeah, he very much enjoyed it.

[A]

My friend Alison makes pillows. She's like a sewing ambassador for, like, a sewing company. And, like, I have friends who are in real estate. I watch all of their videos because I'm obsessed. Alison will make sewing videos from time to time, and I always watch them start to finish. So good. She's a great sewer.

[B]

Yeah, that's great. So Debbie Schwab is Ellen's cousin, and she sort of looked after Ellen when she first moved to Philly because her parents were a little bit worried. She was their only daughter. Debbie was like, I got her. Don't worry.

[A]

Yeah. And like, Allison is telling us, they were all about the social life, dating and meeting people, going. It's like, it's the post college thing. You're living in a cool, fun town.

[B]

Social calendar was packed. They were booked and busy.

[A]

They've got a bunch of friends that are, like, getting married. We meet Caitlyn. Caitlyn is one of those friends, and she tells us a story about, like, sitting on Ellen's bed. Ellen's room was meticulous and just saying that. Like, Ellen had so many questions about,

[B]

like, we had a lot of discussions at that time in our lives just about love, you know, I was in love, and she wanted to find love.

[A]

Everybody was, like, really looking forward to that happening. For Ellen, too.

[B]

Caitlyn says all she wanted was to be in love. Like, this was a big thing that she wanted, and, like, she was ready to start her life. She was kind of like, okay, like, for Ellen, happiness is like settling down, having a family, marrying a guy. She was like, I'm ready for this. I'm done. I'm ready. So let's talk about Sam. Ellen is set up by someone on a blind Date. We don't know who it is. Cousin Debbie knew this guy's family. She's like, I didn't know Sam personally, but she knew his aunt and his grandmother.

[A]

The connections in this documentary are a little weird. We're gonna meet a guy named Bruce later who worked with Ellen, who is the father in law of best friend Allison. Like, there's a lot.

[B]

There's a lot.

[A]

You need a map with one of those Rent playbills where they do the lines and how everyone's connected.

[B]

So funny.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Everyone is very excited about this date because.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

We're told Sam worked for the Golf Channel.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So he was in South Carolina for work, and he was going to fly Ellen down for their first date after talking on FaceTime for, like, a month.

[A]

I love it so much. I love, like, people who, like, hop on a plane and go, like, go on a date. Like, I think that sounds so fun.

[B]

It's a really big deal. Right. And it's kind of like you could see it as like, oh, he's totally peacocking here. He's really being like, oh, like, look, what I could. I can fly you down for the first date. But everyone in Ellen's circle is like, oh, she was in. We were in. We were thrilled for her.

[A]

And we're going to learn to, like, Sam's job during golf season was crazy. He was traveling all the time, so it was probably like, I'm not going to be back in town for five months, and I really want to see you. So come.

[B]

And they were on FaceTime for a month. So, like, this was it.

[A]

And we started, like, it goes really well. And, like, we see text messages between them. They're totally obsessed with each other.

[B]

Yeah. And because, like, after she came back with a boyfriend, like, she came back with the love of her life. Like, they were a couple right after that. And we see the text. Sam, I'm so in love with you, Ellen. Oh, me too. We're so lucky we found each other. My stomach is a mess thinking of another week apart. I mean, oh, my God.

[A]

And everyone loves him. The friends love him. And, like, he was cute and Jewish. Very important. The mom thinks he's charismatic and respectful. He would do that thing. This is such a northeast thing, where he would get up in the morning and go out and turn her car on and warm it up for her on the winter. Like, that is love.

[B]

Now, as we know, this can be love bombing. It's not always love bombing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Not always.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Sometimes people just do nice things for each other. But sometimes it is love bombing. If it doesn't apply to you, then that's wonderful. That's a wonderful thing.

[A]

You get to live a whole day without a plan.

[B]

Ellen Greenberg is the main character in this.

[A]

100%. Yeah.

[B]

So three years into the relationship, he proposes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Sandy and Josh are Ellen's parents. Josh the dad, says, I don't know.

[C]

Fathers always have reservations about their daughter getting engaged.

[B]

It's probably just a dad thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Maybe all dads are a little. Have reservations about their daughters getting engaged. But, you know, she was happy.

[A]

We went by that pretty fast.

[B]

We did.

[A]

Dad definitely was like, I don't know about this, but she seems happy. His wife, the mom, is also very happy.

[B]

Everyone is happy. Debbie, the aunt, like, everyone is thrilled. It's sort of like this kind of.

[A]

You're gonna be like the wet blanket who's like, this guy sucks.

[B]

And then it's very easy to be like, well, I am a dad. She is my only daughter. Like, I could see him kind of gaslighting himself into being like, I'm just being cranky. Right.

[A]

I mean, I. 100% right. I mean, after three and a half years, you get a leg to be like, I'm not so sure about this, because here's the thing. You and I were talking about this off mic. I think that there are things that are left out. I don't know that for sure. There are things we're not being told. Like, did the dad witness him being mean to her? Did the dad see things that made his antennas go up that other people IGN because he was mostly good? Like, this is a guy, the boyfriend, Sam, who travels all the time. So when he's gone, it's easy to only remember the good stuff. But is the dad, like, does the dad see things that I feel like we need to know about? Because why? Does the dad have reservations?

[B]

Sure. 100%. Or on the other hand, just to see the other side of it? Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is it one of those things where it's like, I should have noticed? Is it hindsight being like. Or I don't know.

[A]

Or, like, just to add to what you're saying? Is it in hindsight. Wait, I did notice.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But I didn't even realize realized I noticed, and now I remember that I did have reservations and I should have said something?

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think it's important that they dropped it in. Also, I'm not defending Sam. Don't. Don't get that twisted.

[A]

I just, like, I want more information. I feel like that's A dynamic. Yes. Because when we get to a crucial moment and we'll talk about it when we get there, we see him being a completely different person than we've heard about from anybody.

[B]

So that happens all the time, though.

[A]

But I just want to know, like, if that. Right. If anybody saw anything. Yeah. You know? Yeah. So it's January 26, 2011. There's a nor' Easter coming, and this is gonna be a bad one. It's a squall. Everyone's hunkering down. We learned that Ellen is a teacher by this point.

[B]

Also, cousin Debbie talks about it like it's the 1700. She goes in those days.

[A]

I know.

[B]

Storm like that came, and you didn't leave your house for days.

[A]

And I'm like, I know, I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

But it does kind of look like the kind of storm we don't get anymore.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And it reminded me of that famous footage of the joggers in the snow. Do you know about this?

[A]

Oh, my God. I just saw it today.

[B]

So I looked it up. It's not the same storm. That would be crazy. This is in Portland in 2014. May I?

[A]

Please.

[B]

It's snowing. It's nighttime. These two dingbats are out jogging in the snow at night.

[A]

And there's, like, a reporter there.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's like, night.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No one's out. Everyone's hunkered down. They're eating their grilled cheese and soup. You know what I mean? Like, the movies are on. They're hanging out, watching Devil Wears Prada, whatever. The reporter stops them to be like. I said, what are you doing running? And you're saying, it was really good out. The woman says, it's just the perfect texture for running. Very low impact.

[A]

I saw this today, and I can verify that is exactly what her voice sounds like.

[B]

It's the perfect texture for running. Very low impact on its dry snow so your feet don't get wet. It's like dry snow so your feet don't get wet.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

The guy she's with is like, it's too nice not to be running. Yeah.

[A]

And in fact, if you look around, we're surrounded by runners we love everywhere. It's been a lot of fun. There's a lot of other runners and more skiers than runners, for sure.

[B]

I think they've got a little bit

[A]

of the advantage with the whole stride and glide thing, but it's too nice to not be out here.

[B]

They're literally on a deserted street.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, literally. The bus is Going two miles an hour. Two feet. Right. Then the kicker. We're both California kids, so we haven't really seen much snow in our lives.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

So the reporter's like, okay, cut to

[A]

that lady who's like, don't take any unnecessary journeys.

[B]

They run off. They make it 20ft. This woman, like a banana peel, falls, and it's a hard fall on her back. Yeah.

[A]

Oops, that can happen.

[B]

Unfortunately, Porter's like, whoops, that'll happen.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And then she's like, watch out for that snow there, Chels. Chelsea. Good. Chelsea does not respond.

[A]

It is so funny.

[B]

And then it ends. The camera person, God bless you, stays on them running. And the reporter's like, well, back to you, Tom, or whatever. The camera person follows them, so we see the fall, then continues to follow them as they do that very uncool snow shuffle that we all do.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

It's the only way to travel in a blizzard. It's an uncool shuffle.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

No matter what kind of boots you have, you're doing the shuffle thinking you're gonna sl.

[A]

I was literally served this today. And because she's saying it like, you idiot. Why aren't you running? Why are you at work? You should be running.

[B]

When he says, like, how could we not be?

[A]

Exactly. This is runner's weather.

[B]

And now she's fine. She got up. She's okay. But the fact that she makes it tw. It's so perfect. And that she's like, it's a dry snow. You won't slip.

[A]

Yes, yes.

[B]

Like a banana peel. If you haven't seen it, it's just, like, two runners in the Snow. It's Portland 2014. If. If this happened to other people. It's the one from Portland 2014 in particular.

[A]

But that's so good.

[B]

It was that kind of sn.

[A]

Yes, yes, yes.

[B]

It made me think, like, remember?

[A]

Yeah, we used to get snow. We used to get storms like that in New York all the time. We never do. But, like, so Ellen, we learned as a teacher now, and we meet a couple of our teacher colleagues, and we were so excited.

[B]

I mean, teachers love a snow day, just like kids do.

[A]

School's getting let out early. Everyone's going home.

[B]

Snow day. Even Mike and I. I think I've said this. If Mike and I want to take, like, a random day off, we'll be like, should we have a snow day? Because if we just associate it with, like, oh, yeah, on Wednesday, you know, like, school being closed on a Wednesday.

[A]

Cut to, like, parents Being like, oh, God, a snow. What are we going to do? You know, because now we gotta. Now we got a childcare, Entertain the kid. I know.

[B]

Watch a movie.

[A]

Who's got time?

[B]

What else do you do?

[A]

Well, I have a job.

[B]

Girl, right? No, but I'm saying on a snow day, I'm saying if you're hanging out.

[A]

Oh, yeah. I mean, it's hard. She's old enough now that she could be home alone for a little while and all of that. But, like, in the younger days, it was just like, oh, God.

[B]

Oh, God.

[A]

And actually, my friend Melissa, uptown, when we lived uptown, used to, like, coordinate childcare. And we would, like, we would take two hours, and then they would take two hours. And I mean, I know it's the village.

[B]

It really does take a bit longer.

[A]

It does take. It's true.

[B]

So the Venice Lofts are where Ellen and Sam's apartment are, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So we meet Phil. Phil is the former, quote, concierge at the Venice Loft.

[A]

I fudgeing love this guy. He's here in his pink jacket to tell it like it happens like it is. I love this guy.

[B]

No sugarcoating. Let's keep it up, Phil. So he says, sam, the fiance comes to the front desk. And Sam says, hey, Ellen came home early, but I'm locked out of the unit.

[A]

This guy's given a lot of unnecessary information to everybody, starting right now.

[B]

Feels like. Cool story, bro. As a rule, I can't leave my post at the front desk. So how about this? You keep call calling Ellen. If she's in there, she'll let you in. I'll call maintenance. I cannot leave my post. This is very, very important for a listener.

[A]

He walks away.

[B]

Sam is just like. He just walks away.

[A]

Yeah. And so now we meet Mark, the across the hall neighbor. And he's like, I hear, like, a male's voice talking outside the door. I get up and crack the door a little bit, and here it's Sam pounding on the door. He sees Sam. We don't know if they really know each other or not. But like Mark is saying, I figured they got into some kind of fight. He got locked out. He's pacing back and forth, looking worried about something, says Mark.

[B]

Mark also says a word that stopped me in my tracks, trying to coax her to come to the door and let him in. And I was like, coax her? So he's begging, pleading, pounding.

[A]

Mark, neighbor, have you heard other things? Have you heard him be awful to her before? Like, I want to know now.

[B]

We see texts from this time, we're gonna see a lot of texts. It's 5:32.

[A]

We've seen all the love bombing texts. We've seen that I love you so much. I'm so in love with you, I can't wait to be your husband. I. This is where I'm like, this is not the same person we've been told about for the first 20 minutes of this thing. Lovey dovey, like, so happy, accommodating. And like, the way the parents love him and the. The friends love him. He is all cap screaming at her.

[B]

He's like, hello. Five exclamation points. Open the door. Three minutes later, 5:35. What are you doing? Question mark, exclamation. Question mark, exclamation. So Phil the concierge says that Sam returns to the front desk and he's much more agitated. And now he says to Phil, I

[C]

need to get in the fucking unit.

[B]

Phil and I are like, whoa.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So Phil's like, wait, is Ellen okay? Like, what's wrong?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And Sam goes, I'm just gonna go knock the fucking door down.

[A]

Now. That is insane behavior. Because if you think there's something wrong with her, if you think that, like, she's fallen or like, there's a reason she's not answering the door, call the cops, right? But now he's, like, so mad at Phil the concierge. He's so, like, he's gonna go break. Think about this. Breaking the door down is something you do only in the case of an ext emergency. We're going to learn. This guy's been at the gym. Like, he thinks she's maybe asleep. Like, you just wait.

[B]

Like, you know, none of this makes sense.

[A]

No, because this is where he gets into the apartment. He breaks the apartment door open. He goes inside. He finds Ellen unresponsive on the floor, and he is giving so much extraneous information. Because my question is just to you, if you walked into your apartment and saw Mike passed out on the floor, the only words out of your mouth would be, get. I need an ambulance. I need an ambulance.

[B]

You know, and if how he was found was like, ellen, I wouldn't be saying any of this. There's one thing I'd be saying first because I would have seen it first. And we'll get there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So the 911 call, Sam says he goes downstairs to work out. Cool. He comes up. The door was latched, is the quote. He says, my fiance is inside. She wasn't answering. After about half an hour, I decided to break the door down. My fiance's on the floor with blood everywhere. And then literally, oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, no.

[A]

I want to be really clear about this. This. This is not after the fact. This is him literally finding Ellen on the floor. She did not ask him what happened. His 911 call for his girlfriend who's in a pool of blood on the floor.

[B]

Fiance.

[A]

Fiance. Starts out with 35 seconds of. I was at the gym. I came back, the door was locked.

[B]

Half an hour down.

[C]

My. I went downstairs to go work out. I came back up, the door was latched. My fiance's inside. It wasn't. She wasn't answering, so. So after about a half hour, I decided to break it down. I see her now, just on the floor. Blood. She's not. She's not responding.

[A]

This is time that, like, she would be bleeding out and dying. And he's not screaming, send me an ambulance.

[B]

So the dispatcher is walking Sam through what to do.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

He can't get Ellen's shirt off. He's frantic. And then he says, her shirt won't come off.

[C]

It's a zipper. Oh, my God. She stabbed herself.

[B]

Where?

[C]

She fell in a knife. Oh, no. Her knife's sticking out.

[B]

What?

[C]

There's a knife sticking out of her heart.

[B]

Oh, my God. She stabbed herself. She fell on a knife. A knife is sticking out. There is a knife sticking out of her heart. Tell me that's not the first. I know we. We're not allowed to talk about voice and tone and how people are reacting.

[A]

If you.

[B]

Sorry.

[A]

If you find a stabbed person and you didn't do it, the only thing you're going to say was, somebody stabbed her. Nobody in the history of the world has ever person with a knife in their body and said the words they stabbed themselves. And then that is insane.

[B]

And then she fell on a knife. So she's on her back.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Stabbed in the chest. But she fell on a knife and she also stabbed herself.

[A]

Like, if this is the first time you're seeing this knife in this person's body, there's no world in which you would ever say, I mean, even if what we're going to learn about the circumstances of him getting in are true, and there's no way. Like, my thought would be, somebody came in through the window. Somebody had been waiting inside for me to go to the gym. Somebody stabbed her. Is the only thing that would make sense to say.

[B]

In the chest.

[A]

Yes. Yes.

[B]

Oh, my God. She stabbed herself. Is the first time we hear about a knife at all.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

After he's already been on the phone, walking through his timeline.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And now suddenly.

[A]

And because even before he sees the knife, she's in a pool of blood. It's not like she fainted. You know what I mean? Like she's in a pool of blood on the floor. He's saying he didn't see the knife until this moment, but there's blood everywhere.

[B]

It doesn't make any sense.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So the fire department gets there. Concierge Phil tells them where to go.

[A]

Love this gu.

[B]

45 minutes later, they come back down. And apparently the firefighter said to Phil,

[C]

see, you don't need an ambulance. You need a homicide detector.

[B]

And Phil goes, and that's when everything changed.

[A]

Now we meet Melissa, and I love her. Not since the Cecil hotel documentary have we spent this much time with like a basically a hotel manager. Remember that lady?

[B]

Yeah. Well, we heard it, Cecil. We're here to now. There's no playbook for any of this. Everyone.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Everyone.

[A]

Everyone.

[B]

There's a lack of some comments common sense here that I'm hearing.

[A]

Yeah. So she's the Venice loft's manager. She says she was in her office working later than usual because it's a little after six. Gets a call from Phil. There was an issue in the sixth floor apartment. The police are down in the lobby. She takes the cops up to the apartment and she says, this made me crazy too. She goes, I was a little concerned because as we were walking to the apartment with the cops, they had their guns drawn. I was like, can we get the civilian out of there?

[B]

And it's a chaotic scene. There's too many cooks in this kitchen.

[A]

Literally, when you draw your guns, you tell the civilian to get the out of there.

[B]

Get out. That's going on, Melissa. I'm taking from here.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

So the first responders are there, the police are there. The building people are there. Mark, the neighbor is watching all of this from his doorway.

[A]

I love Mark, the nosy neighbor.

[B]

Same.

[A]

I know.

[B]

So he says, more Sam. Sam is distraught. Sam, the fiance, is distraught. He says, now Guy d' Andrea is the former assistant district attorney. I love him. He goes.

[A]

And one of the things that is almost always, if not always critical are timelines.

[B]

Guy tells his what we know.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

4:50pm Sam leaves the apartment. He arrives at the gym in the building.

[A]

Per him, Ellen is alive and well inside that apartment.

[B]

Per him is great. I love Guy. I love this guy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So per him, I'm like, sam. Okay, so more of the timeline. Sam is gone for about 38 and a half to 40 minutes, which is

[A]

all you need at the gym, you know what I mean? Like 38 to 40 minutes. You don't need to be there for an hour and a half.

[B]

35 is good.

[A]

Absolutely fine. You can get it all done. Done.

[B]

Cool. 20.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

5:28pm Sam heads back to the apartment. I'd love to know if this is a regular thing. Is. Is Sam a gym guy?

[A]

Does look. Doesn't look like it. I'm allowed to say it because I don't like this guy.

[B]

This is when he tries to get inside the apartment and it is latched for him. Right, Guy? Did I use it right?

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Am I cool? You can only lock or unlock it from the inside, says guy.

[A]

Yeah, it's one of those, like hotel lots, the latches that.

[B]

Sam is immediately enraged when he goes upstairs after the gym. He's screaming, he's slamming on the door, telling her how furious he is. We get all of these texts from Sam. Interestingly enough, Ellen is not responding to the text. Now. When you're dealing with a narcissist, you gray rock them. You don't answer. Yeah, that could be explained away and I'd buy that she's ignoring him.

[A]

This is the first time we're hearing about him as a monster. Do you know what I mean? Up till this point, it's been three years of like total and complete bliss. And all of a sudden he's screaming and pounding on the door.

[B]

He's saying, you better have an excuse. Yeah, the fuck a with a bunch of H's. An exclamation point. That's one text at 6:03. That goes at 6:11. You have no idea.

[A]

Because the thing is, like, you know anybody who has ever lived with anybody for a long period of time? I would just assume Steve left and didn't tell me. Like he left, right, and locked the door. You know, like, why are you still doing this thinking she's in there?

[B]

Because this is not. Oh, no, I forgot my key.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

This isn't even. We were fighting. I worked out to blow off steam and I forgot my key. Like there's a lot more here.

[A]

You know what I was just thinking? I haven't had this thought yet is that he tried to get the concierge to go with him. He wanted to send somebody else in to find the body. He wanted to do that JonBenet Ramsey thing where you send somebody else to find the body.

[B]

I'm going to say something. I think she was dead before he went to the Gym.

[A]

Yeah. I've thought about this too. I'd love to see the surveillance video of his behavior at the gym, because I really mean this. Was he really working out? Like, was he really doing a workout or was he, like, phoning it in?

[B]

Because I will. All jokes aside, 38 minutes isn't that long of a time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

At the gym, all told.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Right. Not even the workout. Getting down there, getting your stuff, taking your breaks, whatever.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

38 minutes is like a GP workout. You know what I mean? That's like the scrape in the bottom.

[A]

Well, then clearly it's all you need, obviously.

[B]

But what I'm saying is it feels like it could be feeling like, is this long enough? This is long enough.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's a weird amount of time.

[A]

But that's the thing. Everything about this is weird. Everything about it is weird.

[B]

Everything makes you go.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So things that make you go. That used to be a song. It still is.

[A]

It still is.

[B]

Song still exists. Songs don't stop existing. So all of this madness, though, the texting, all of this shit goes on for like an hour before he breaks down the door and gets into the apartment and calls 911 at 6:30.

[A]

We could talk about it for two hours and I don't think it would be enough. How strange the behavior of breaking down the door is.

[B]

Right?

[A]

That is insane. Because if we believe Sam and he didn't know, he's expecting like the nightmare of, in a nor', easter, you're going to call somebody to come fix the door that you just kicked open.

[B]

Phil was going to handle it. He was calling maintenance.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Just wait a minute.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Go stew in the corner if you need to be furious.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Must you? Like. And then Phil's like, all right. He just fudgeing, walked away. Like, Phil's not going to waste his time.

[A]

Have you ever known anybody who's broken a door down? Has anyone ever known anybody? That is insane behavior. That is insane behavior as a response to somebody who's just not answering your text messages.

[B]

Right. And like, what was the fight? I think the text messages were fake. I think the reason she's not answering is because he killed her before the gym. And I think he wants to be on camera at the gym. He wants everyone to know he was at the gym. He tells Phil. He tells this. I think this is all his attempt at an alibi.

[A]

No question.

[B]

I'm just saying, then we see these fucking awful photos.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Of the crime scene in Ellen Greenberg because she, we are told she is found up against the Cabinetry in the corner, like slunched down with blood all over her body and a knife sticking

[A]

out of her chest and there's like blood everywhere. Like there's no way that Sam didn't see the blood. And yet he's giving 30 seconds of what his day was.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Before asking for an ambulance.

[B]

I just want to say something for the sake of a detail. If you haven't seen this or you don't know about this case, it's not just blood spatter. It looks like hand marks.

[A]

Yes. And drag marks.

[B]

Like trying to stand up. Trying to. You know what I mean?

[A]

Yes. Like. Yes, like the Kathleen Peterson of it all.

[B]

Not just like blood spattered places. Like, like someone stabbed themselves in the chest. First of all. Give me a break. But it's not like, you know.

[A]

Yeah. No. Yes. So 6:40pm the fire and rescue get there, detectives are there and you know, they send detectives out because from the 911 call they say it sounds like a homicide.

[B]

Well then Mark the neighbor says, well, the minute the cops get there, all Sam is telling the cops about not, oh my God, my fiance, oh my God, who did this? Oh my God, what happened? It's.

[A]

I could hear Sam talking to the police officer about her medication and that she had some mental health issues.

[B]

That's the first thing, according to Mark, that Sam is putting on the record in the report. First sentence of the report, mental health issues, tons of medication.

[A]

And like in my mind, just to play devil's advocate, I'm like, well, he is her intimate partner. Maybe he would know more about her mental health struggles than other people. Maybe she was having suicidal ideation and only he knew about it. But we don't ever hear him say that.

[B]

Right.

[A]

We are not told that anywhere.

[B]

We're just telling you what Mark told us.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

So the detectives. This is where it gets maddening. The detectives call this a suicide while they're still at the scene.

[A]

And guy, the DA says they just took Sam's word for it.

[B]

Like, I know we all thought we were going to have a cute little snow day.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But that's the gig, you guys. You don't really get a snow day when you're the cops and you walk in on a scene like this. Who is looking at these pictures? Yeah, and this, this scene, we're looking at the pictures. But who walks in there and just says, okay, yeah, it's time, it's 4:03. It's time to go home. What are you talking about?

[A]

And like I know we're gonna be Told later by an amazing expert that, like, there have been cases of murder, of suicide by stabbing. Not with the circumstances of this case, but you would think that the people on the scene would be like, that is impossible.

[B]

Can we just, like, take a look around for a second and try to investigate?

[A]

If the manner of the suicide is so rare that no one's ever heard of it, then you need to investigate this. You can't just take the intimate partner's word for it when we always know. It's almost always the intimate partner, the

[B]

guy you should be looking at first.

[A]

Exact.

[B]

Oh, so she was crazy.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Case closed. Another crazy woman.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Small arms.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

So the cops get there at 6, 46, 48, they're gone. Sam is, quote, crying. The building manager makes two phone calls. Number one to Sam's parents and two to corporate offices to explain what happened. Those are two interesting calls to me.

[A]

Who should she call?

[B]

Ellen's parents, maybe?

[A]

Well, I don't think that's her role.

[B]

Well, I. It's weird. Like, Sam's. Did she. Did Sam ask her to call his parents?

[A]

Weird because she says, like, he started crying. I asked what I could do. In my mind, I imagined he's like, could you call my parents?

[B]

Fair enough.

[A]

But maybe not. You know what I mean? I think that Melissa.

[B]

Melissa, this is my least favorite thing that she does.

[A]

Of course not.

[B]

More things.

[A]

Yes. But, like, I do also think that she's, like, in a tough position.

[B]

I think, to be fair, I think you're right. I think I'm looking at this through a lens. That's not fair in this moment, right now.

[A]

But it's okay. Be mad. I'm mad with you.

[B]

We're watching failure in real time.

[A]

I know.

[B]

By so many people.

[A]

And I was just thinking about this too. Like, I try to remind myself that once again, we have all the pieces.

[B]

That's what I'm saying.

[A]

You know what I mean? Like, in. In the moment, she's just trying to, like, get through her then, you know, like. But I'm with you. Like, Melissa makes some really bad calls.

[B]

Yeah, but maybe not this one. I'm. I was being hard on her in this moment.

[A]

That's okay.

[B]

You're freaking, Sandy. Thank you. Sandy and Josh are Ellen's parents, right? And they're, like, the worst thing in the world happens. They're enjoying the snowy night at home, and Sam's dad calls them and says, something terrible has happened to Ellie. I could die.

[A]

They tell us about that night. And, like, the dad is like, it's

[C]

very difficult for us to talk about

[B]

that time slot and try and put

[A]

it in any sort of. Of order. No, they go into total blackout.

[B]

Right. Like, obviously, like, they're like, yeah. Their timelines and details are definitely blurry. Yeah, obviously. So let's go back six months to June of 2010. The big engagement.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And Ellen was, like, again, waiting.

[A]

I just got, like, so happy for

[B]

them for a second because Ellen was fudgeing ready. She wanted this. She was so happy. Like, she started planning right away. She had the dress, she had the flowers, the dates. August 13, 2011. Like, she was on it and she was excited.

[A]

We also see pictures of her in her wedding dress. And I was. She's thinking, that must kill her mother. Like, that must be.

[B]

That's horrible because you think it's like, again, I'm not making a joke about it, but, like, it's the snow day. You think everyone you know and love is home safe.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

School's closed. Everyone's watching a movie. They're eating popcorn. They're having their grilled cheese. You know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Everyone sort of assumed we're all hunkered down.

[A]

You love the winter so much. You love it so much.

[B]

I love it. But you think, like, okay, like, you guys got everything. See you later. Like, I'm sure that was the call that this only child had with her parents.

[A]

Yeah. Yes.

[B]

And then you. You're like, what? She was home.

[A]

The worst moment of your life.

[B]

The last time I spoke to her. What do you. What do you mean?

[A]

Well, so then we cut to December of that year, and Ellen and her cousin Debbie go shopping for save the dates for the wedding. And this is the first time we hear Debbie says, but I went shopping with her the first week in December

[B]

for save the dates. And she definitely wasn't herself.

[A]

She definitely was not herself.

[B]

There was a shift, they say, and the parents say.

[A]

It took me a second to understand what was going on here. Ellen wanted to quit her job and move home to Harrisburg. I was like, wait a second. What about Sam?

[B]

Well, they're only engaged a few months, and there's a shift. And that looking back, having all the information is a red flag. Like, why? Like.

[A]

But when she said she wanted to move home, it's my understanding that she wasn't leaving Sam. It's that Sam travels half the year anyway.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And she didn't want to, like, be in their apartment without him. So she was just going to, like, move home. I was just. Had to get it straight in My head that she wasn't leaving Sam. She was just like, he's gone so much that she may as well just go live with her parents.

[B]

Sure. But right now, like, the Ellen everyone knew was gone.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

The excitement is gone. Everyone is saying, like, she totally lost her light. And it is so obvious that her friends are talking, trying to figure out what, like, the shift happened and it was there and there was kind of no going back. And so they're like, did you notice that? Like, trying to put things together, trying to help her because she was one way, and then the next day she wasn't.

[A]

Right. And what we learn here is how much Ellen was miserable at her job. She's a schoolteacher. We're told it's an inner city school now. This is insane. It was five first grade classes. All of them had at least 30 kids. Some had almost 40 kids per classroom.

[B]

It's a lot of first graders in one place.

[A]

It is. I don't know how that's legal. I mean, there is nothing educational that can be done in a class that size. Daisy was in public school and one of the best public schools in the city. There was 30 kids per class, no teacher's assistant. And, like, they did the best they can. And, like, if you're an excellent teacher and you can manage 30 kids, like, maybe you can get some stuff done. But it is chaos.

[B]

40 kids, first grade is tough. It is, you know, it's 40 of them.

[A]

It's insane. And like, Ellen was absolutely fucking.

[B]

She was miserable. She wanted to quit. She was overwhelmed. There were too many. She was brand new. And to be thrown into that situation, even the most seasoned veteran.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Would have. This was her first gig.

[A]

And this is where we meet Bruce, who is Ellen's colleague, but also Ellen's best friend, Allison's father in law. So Bruce and Ellen work together at the school. And he says, like, she was totally overwhelmed.

[B]

Completely. And she, like, we see texts. I hate every second of work. I don't know why.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And Sam says in response, get it together and do it or focus on finding something else to do.

[A]

Whoa. Now this is what I hate so much. Because she's talking to her parents about, like, quitting her job and moving home. Nobody in her life is letting her leave this job. That is making. Making her absolutely fucking miserable.

[B]

I had that say, literally that same note, those words. Why is nobody letting her quit?

[A]

Sam doesn't want her to quit. Her parents tell us they make her a deal. We're going to find you a therapist. You're going to go to therapy, and if it goes well and you still want to quit, you can. And, like, the dad, to his credit, he's like, look, looking back on it, I understand that I was thinking like a dad. And he says, my goals were help my daughter save the job. Like, Ellen, not quitting the job feels like it's as important to everybody in her life as it is to her to quit the job. Job.

[B]

Yeah, it was tough because I think they were saying, like, you work so hard to get here. Are you sure? Are you sure?

[A]

It sounds really sure to me.

[B]

I'm sure. I'm miserable. So, like, you know, the doctor wasn't really helping, but she, you know, starts on medication. Let me tell you, I totally get it. It takes a while to find the right plan. I understand that's not an overnight thing. So it's kind of a lot to ask of someone, like, are you better yet? Are you better yet?

[A]

When?

[B]

Like, that takes a long time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So. So everyone at school is like, this is very stressful, but maybe there's something else causing her this intense level of stress and anxiety. Like, is there something else?

[A]

Everybody who works at the school does not understand why she's so stressed out.

[B]

You know, there are 40 first graders in front of her.

[A]

That is 100% true. But this is where I'm saying what else is going on?

[B]

Of course.

[A]

Of course, you know, but we're not told, you know?

[B]

And so Sam's job, like, he's traveling all the time, and he's, like, always at these golf tournaments for work. And Ellen did know that this is part of the gig, but that doesn't mean she's loving. Loving it, adding to her anxiety. And she's also feeling insecure. Like, what does he do? You know, she's just, like, not in a good place. It's kind of a mess.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that we see all of these texts, and, like, at first, they're, like, seemingly super lovey. Like, Sam's like, sorry, you're anxious. Everything will be fine. You know that all I think about is you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So Ellen is like, I want to leave this job. Like, nothing is helping. I don't care about the deal I made with my parents or whatever. Like, I want to leave. And he's like, in the middle of the school year.

[A]

It makes me insane. If I got a text like that from a friend that I didn't even know that well, I'd be like, get the fudge out of there.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because she says to her Fiance. Will you hate me if I leave my job? I don't want to, but it's getting out of hand. Still trying. Even if I have to sub until I find something next year, then that's what I'll do, I guess.

[A]

And, like, that's a thing. Go do that.

[B]

And Sam's like, you're not a quitter. Stick it out. And I'm like, oh, my God, Zachary.

[C]

No.

[A]

I feel the anxiety for her.

[B]

Like.

[A]

Like, I hate this. I have been trapped in jobs that I absolutely hated, that I didn't feel like I could quit because I needed the money so badly.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Not. Nothing is more anxiety inducing in me than that.

[B]

I hear you completely. It's horrible.

[A]

And it's like, Sam, you clearly make enough money to, like, float her for a couple months. Like, let her quit her fucking job.

[B]

She's not saying, I'm gonna quit my job. And even if she was, it doesn't matter. But, like, what? Even if she was, like, I don't know what I want to do anymore. Then let her figure it out. It's her life.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And if she's saying, like, well, I'll stop until I find something else, it. To me, it's so clear. It's this environment.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

She's not gonna, like, throw caution to the wind and just, like, be a lonely life.

[A]

But, like, is this enough to stab yourself in the chest over? I don't think so.

[B]

I don't know. And, like, I just don't understand. Like, she's so clear about how miserable she is. And I get that. Like, at first, I'm sure the other side of the argument is like, well, her parents want her to be extra sure. She works really hard. I'm like, she sounds really sure.

[A]

She's an adult. She can make up her own fucking mind.

[B]

Preemptively apologizing. I can't imagine saying, would you hate me if I left this totally miserable toxic environment. No, you hate me.

[A]

And then why is she even asking for the answer? Should not be like, get out of there. I will be there in five minutes to help you pack up your classroom.

[B]

We will figure.

[A]

Get out of there. Yes.

[B]

One of the jobs I had, you know the story. I didn't know I was going to leave it, but I left it. It was the place where all of that sexual harassment was happening. All of this fucking horrifying environment. I would cry all the time. I was an angry, dark person.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it came to a head, and I didn't know I was walking out of there. That Day. But whatever happened, happened. And I didn't ask Mike, and I didn't wonder if anyone was going to be fucking mad at me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I was like, I can't do this. And I walked out. Out with nothing. Not a plan. The only good thing was that they were so behind on paying me that I had a little bit of a cushion ahead of me. Six to eight weeks that I could, like, breathe for two seconds before I was like, what the fuck am I going to do?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I called Mike and we walked. It was right next to Trinity Church. And I remember being like, angelica, Skyler will know what to do. Like, I remember being like, okay, I'm out of this now. Now I need to forge ahead. When I tell you, no plan. Yeah, Negative money in the bank account. I needed to get the fuck out of there. I did. And it was never in mind to text Mike, will you hate me if I leave my job?

[A]

And if you had, his only response would have been like, get out of here.

[B]

Came downtown and met me.

[A]

Yeah. Yes.

[B]

And we walked together and talked and figured it the fuck out.

[A]

And, like, that's what I'm saying. Like, what is going on in this relationship that we don't know about?

[B]

You know, it feels very infantilizing to me. It feels like she's a kid with him.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And some of these texts, I'm not. I'm not trying to project and talk about shit I don't know about, but, like, she. It feels like she's trying to shield him from her real feelings. I hate every second of work. I don't know why. I know why.

[A]

Yeah, you're miserable.

[B]

But it feels like she's trying to soften the blow.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, a lot. Just. You hate it. It's okay to hate it.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So it's January 26, 2011. It's 11am all the schools are closed. Like, we're getting ready for this big storm.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And Ellen was super stressed over report cards coming out. So she's, like, on the phone with her colleagues. She's pacing, she's distraught. And everyone is saying, like, this was a crazy, crazy, crazy, stressful time.

[A]

Yeah, but. But it was, like, way more for her than other people.

[B]

And no one knows. So people are like, her job was stressful. Totally get why she hated it.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Like, we hated it at times, too. But, like, something is. It's just everyone's gut was screaming at them that something else was wrong.

[A]

So now we meet Donna Jacone. Donna, never have I seen a person in a documentary who was named more perfectly Donna jacone.

[B]

Lover. And also she's a crime scene investigator for 22 years. Crime scene investigator. That seems relevant to this case, since they did not investigate the fricking crime scene.

[A]

Well, I was just going to say her whole point in being here Is to say that she has nothing to do with this case. Right. Like, she literally was. When they got the call that Ellen was dead. Dead. They were told that it was a suicide. So they did not send out the crime scene investigators to investigate. So that investigation was never done.

[B]

Like, you know, collecting evidence, photographing the scene, clothing, meeting with the detectives, like, all of that kind of stuff.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Wasn't done because Sam was like, she's crazy. And they were like, cool. Happens all the time.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So, you know, philly, we're told, had a lot of crime, but mank was on the much lower end of crime, is what we're told. Yeah, like one or two murders a year. And the venice lofts are, like, a pretty secure building. We got Phil up front as the concierge who refuses to leave post.

[A]

He's doing what he's told.

[B]

You needed a key fob to get into certain areas, like the cameras everywhere. The employees knew the residents, so if there was someone kind of, you know,

[A]

it was like it was a safe place to live.

[B]

Lots of cameras. Except for the elevators in the hallways. Are you kidding me?

[A]

I know. Although we do see footage of Sam in the hallways.

[B]

Right. So I guess some of the hallways.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It feels weird that they told us that. I'm like, what? What do we not have footage of?

[A]

Exactly. Exactly.

[B]

So the building employees are just not equipped to deal with a situation like this. And Phil the concierge is like, I

[C]

didn't even know what my job was at that point. To be honest with you, there. There's no blueprint or format to how you deal with that. And I think Melissa and I were making that shit up as we went.

[A]

I know. I know.

[B]

I love this.

[A]

So the day after the murder, Melissa gets a call from Sam's uncle.

[B]

Weird.

[A]

And she is told they want to retrieve some personal effects for the funeral. Now, Melissa does the right thing here. She calls the cops and. And says, like, should I let them into the apartment? And the cops say yes.

[B]

Now, maybe. Is it weird that it's not any of Ellen's friends or family calling? Maybe. Could you argue maybe that this uncle was doing a nice thing because what a horrible thing for her friends and family to do? Perhaps. It's unclear.

[A]

My only thing with Melissa here is that, like, she's getting all of her information thirdhand. So, like, all Melissa knows is somebody told her that this poor woman killed herself. So I bet Melissa just believes that and has no reason to think otherwise.

[B]

Well, the cops say, sure, let this person and this other random guy come because it's Sam's uncle and some guy. Yeah, nameless, faceless guy. The cops say yes, and then Melissa is told to call. So police directed me to call a company called Crime Scene Cleanup. I made a phone call and they came out.

[A]

She asks. Now, I only make that distinction for one reason. Melissa says, I knew the family was going to come to pick some stuff up. I didn't want them to go into, like, a bloody crime scene. That would probably be traumatizing. So I asked the cops what to do, and they tell me her to call a company called Crime Scene Cleanup.

[B]

They do exactly what it sounds like.

[A]

Now, all I could think about was the Peterson family of the staircase and how they lived with that bloody staircase for years because it was the crime scene and they couldn't clean it up. And I guess it's like because the cops determined that there is no crime scene because there was no crime.

[B]

But how can you be so sure there wasn't a crime if you didn't call the crime scene investigator?

[A]

I know, because it's like they just took Sam's word for it.

[B]

You know what it was? It was an easy check off the

[A]

list, 100% clean it up.

[B]

Of course, then it's real. Really off our desk.

[A]

Yeah. And so Melissa calls this Crime Scene Cleanup. Now, these are the people who the cops call.

[B]

But it's Crime Scene Cleanup llc. That's what they do. This is what they're called. They are the professionals.

[A]

Now, Melissa is afraid that they're going to steal stuff and she's going to get blamed for.

[B]

It's video.

[A]

She goes in and videotapes the apartment, and she's saying that like, it was the mundane ness of what was there that was. Although, like, she's talking about, like, the blueberries on the counter. But then she says, a couple of knives in the sink. And I'm like, were those murder weapons?

[B]

There's a cutting board out. There's blueberries, tomatoes. It kind of maybe looks like Ellen was preparing dinner or cutting. Cooking a meal of some kind. Now, Melissa didn't stay for the full cleaning, but they wore hazmat suits. They cleaned up the blood. They put the knives in the dishwasher.

[A]

I mean, it's unbelievable.

[B]

That was that and just like that, any possible investigation is officially out the window. Because the crime scene was professionally cleaned by the professional crime scene cleanup people.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And that is certainly that. So Sam's uncle and some other guy show up after the place is sparkling clean. Like the top of the Chrysler Building.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Would say, literally. And Melissa is there watching the them, but, like, keeping a distance because this is, you know, she's assuming a very horrifying, traumatic thing.

[A]

Yeah. And like, you know, Guy, the da, he's just here to say all the things that we're saying, which is like, I cannot believe that this place was not cordoned off, that it wasn't a. People are just coming and going, but these guys stay.

[B]

And it makes me think, like, what did you tell Melissa on the phone? Who does she think you are? Right, because you must have had some kind of sob story for her to act the way she's acting. Because these two guys stay for 15 minutes, they take all of her electronics, Ellen's laptop and her phone. No personal photos, not the ring, nothing personal. Nothing that maybe her family would want or her friends would want. I thought you were there.

[A]

And it's also like, Sam and Ellen aren't married yet. So it's like, how is it that the next of kin for her aren't her parents?

[B]

Does her family know that this phone call was made? I highly doubt it. It doesn't seem like it to me.

[A]

I just don't understand how anybody was allowed to touch her stuff.

[B]

And why are you only taking the electronics?

[A]

Right. Of course. I mean, so perhaps obvious.

[B]

Not the ring, not a photo, not an old stuffed animal, not anything personal connected to her. Her laptop and her phone. Ten minutes they were out.

[A]

You would think if they were decent human beings, they'd be calling Ellen's parents and saying, hey, there might be some answers as to why she was so sad on her computer. Do you guys want that? No. They are taking the evidence to scrub it.

[B]

Right. Only the electronics. But I'm there for the family. I would love to hear the phone call between the uncle and Melissa.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What sob story did he tell her?

[A]

Totally.

[B]

And who's the other guy?

[A]

Right? It's a fucking free for all in there. So it's January 27, 2011, the day after Ellen's death. 9:00am, Ellen's mom calls Allison and she tells like, now the friends are finding out. And, like, Allison's got to be the one to call all the other friends and tell them what happened.

[B]

And not a single one of these women can understand it.

[A]

No.

[B]

No one can make sense of it even. They all knew she was stressed. They all knew something wasn't right. They were all talking to each other, trying to put pieces together, and yet not a single one of these women can understand it. Could you argue? Well, they're in denial because it was their best. Sure.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But it's interesting.

[A]

And one of them said, I think Debbie, the cousin says, like, I didn't have any reason to think that anything was really that wrong, because if anything was really that wrong, she would have told me, you know?

[B]

Right. And what's interesting is that Sam is telling everybody as well. And he's saying things like. And the first words out of his mouth were, she did this to herself, which is a truly insane way to talk about your fiance suicide.

[A]

I just can't believe it.

[B]

She did this to herself is what he says.

[A]

So now we meet Dr. Michelle Dupree.

[B]

D. Michelle, D. Apostrophe.

[A]

God damn it. I love her even more now. She's a forensic pathologist and forensic medical examiner. And she's saying. I love that. She says that the medical examiner's office is a neutral body. She says we determine cause and manner of death.

[B]

She says her company does second opinions.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which I love.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I didn't know that was a thing in this world, but it should be, especially when cops are like, oh, another crazy woman killed herself. Perfect. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. We've definitely heard of cases of, like, the second autopsy requested by the family or whatever.

[B]

Love how she said second opinion. I was like, oh, hell, yes.

[A]

1. She says, like, this was an unusual case because there were mistakes that were made from the beginning. Now, this was so interesting to me.

[B]

At a crime scene, the crime scene itself is under the jurisdiction of law enforcement. However, the body and things that surround the body or are with the body are the jurisdiction of the medical examiner.

[A]

On or around the body are the jurisdiction of the medical examiner.

[B]

And that didn't happen here.

[A]

Well, because I also didn't know this. The medical examiner should be on scene. The medical examiner should go to the scene to examine the body in the place where the body has died and in that moment, determine if they can make a determination whether it was a homicide, a suicide, or an accident.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And once again, they just took this guy's word for it.

[B]

Did you go inside? I know it sounds like they didn't. Nothing was preserved. Nothing was cataloged, nothing was examined, nothing was taken, nothing was labeled. Even if it was a suicide, you didn't do any of that. I know, because we learn Ellen was stabbed 20 times. We barely have any photos of the injuries. At least half of the injuries weren't discovered until the autopsy. And the ones they didn't discover. Discover were on her back.

[A]

I mean, it's so important to like almost say that again, like on the scene. It is determined that it is a suicide because the medical examiner was not there and the body was not inspected in the crime scene or looked at. They didn't even know about half of the wounds and that the wounds they didn't know about were on her back. Would the cops in the moment have determined this a suicide if they knew that she had, quote, stabbed herself in the back, which is impossible.

[B]

I don't understand how you can even make the determination based. I don't understand how you couldn't have anyone just to cross the T's and dot the I's.

[A]

Yeah. So we're not sitting here screaming about

[B]

it for three whole episodes.

[A]

You know what I mean?

[B]

Oh, my God. And so I'm gonna have to watch that jogger video just to our little power punch.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Dry snow, perfect texture. The weird.

[A]

What do you see out there? Other runners. I mean, we're just other runners.

[B]

When I tell you it's the dead of night, there's not a single person there.

[A]

I know.

[B]

It's amazing there's a single person out there. We're just bonding with all the fellow joggers out in the snow. So this. Because even if it was a suicide, it would also, and I don't mean to be morbid about it, it would be a medical fucking marvel how she did it. So it should be the seed should be studied regardless.

[A]

Yes, exactly.

[B]

So the medical examiner is Marlon Osborne. And when he looks at Ellen's body, he rules it a homicide.

[A]

Like, obviously.

[B]

Right. But however, this was all done after the cops said it was a suicide. And now they're cleaning up the joint and everything's in the fucking dishwasher.

[A]

He literally changes the death certificate from suicide to homicide. This is good news.

[B]

So Ellen Greenberg was killed on January 26. The funeral was two days later. And we're told this is very typical in Jewish custom. The burials are very quick.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There was a clear divide at the family, which is always weird. Cuz shouldn't we all be in this together? Didn't we all suffer a tragedy?

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

But it's very clearly like Ellen's family versus Sam's family.

[A]

Yeah. And people are saying that, like they remember Sam looking very anguished. And he looked at me and I've never Seen a face more contempt, contorted with anguish in my life. He didn't look like himself.

[B]

The two friends, teachers. The two teachers are like. He was wailing, right? And they're like, yeah, eye roll. It was a lot.

[A]

I mean, the look of remembering on her face. Like the sounds that he must have been making, like, louder for the people in the back, Sam.

[B]

In other instances, we've seen it before.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We've seen people say that I will never forget that sound because it was real and genuine. They are saying, I'll never forget that

[A]

sound because it was so over the. The top.

[B]

Right. You know, and we were all in it together. And there wasn't a great divide at the funeral two days after this murder.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

So. But the way they say, yeah, I rolled was a lot.

[A]

It was a lot like, I mean, they're saying what. They're saying what everybody is thinking, like, he fucking killed her.

[B]

And then they're at the funeral. Half of them are in mourning during the funeral. In the outside world, the news reports that Ellen's death is a homage homicide. Everyone is at the funeral, and nobody

[A]

let the parents know that was happening.

[B]

Like, the cops didn't call them.

[A]

Cousin Debbie gets a call from a friend who saw it on the news while Debbie is at the funeral.

[B]

And who makes the big announcement?

[A]

Well, the dad finds out that it's been switched to a homicide. Goes up to give the eulogy. Gives the eulogy, and then the dad announces that it has been switched from a suicide to a homicide.

[B]

And in the middle of it, and the friends are like, he announced it. And they go. You could hear a pin drop. No one knows what to do now.

[A]

I mean, you would think everybody's looking at Sam like, if this was a murder, the only person who could have done it would be Sam.

[B]

Record scratch. Everyone looks around like, hey, is that you wailing?

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

So we're told as we're wrapping this up, that in Jewish custom, the body is prepared in a certain way. And the women in the community do the preparation. It doesn't take long before the women who prepared Ellen's body start talking about. About what they saw.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then it gets everyone else talking and asking a lot of fucking questions. And then we get the credits, and we see some familiar names.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This is directed and produced by Nancy Schwarzman, who did Roll Red Roll. Remember that?

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Executive producers Elle and Dakota Fanning.

[A]

No way. Yeah.

[B]

So we're in good hands with this.

[A]

It's very good.

[B]

We are in good hands.

[A]

It's very, very good with the story being told. Oh, my God, girl. We did episode one of death in apartment 650. What happened to Ellen Greenberg?

[B]

Yes, it's on Hulu.

[A]

Yeah, There you go.

[B]

3.

[A]

Check it out. It's really good. I really like this series a lot. I've got a lot of questions. Josh appears here in the end. I can't get over it.

[B]

And we're gonna be in Philly for the next several weeks.

[A]

Oh, my God. So should we just, like, get a place?

[B]

Sure.

[A]

I'm so excited.

[B]

Cheesesteaks all around.

[A]

Oh, my God. That sounds delightful.

[B]

Don't they say that, hoagie?

[A]

All right.

[B]

Bye bye. Stay safe. Love you,

[A]

Fam. Thanks for listening to episode one of our coverage of death in apartment 603, what happened to Ellen Greenberg? All three episodes of this are available right now and ad free at the five dollar tier on our Patreon. There's a link in the show notes and just a reminder, on our Patreon, you'll find almost 500 full ad free bonus episodes covering everything you want to hear us scream about, from Netflix to Hulu to HBO Max to ID to everything else. Thanks for listening, fam. And we love you.