487: Manhunt: Joanne Dennehy

Summary

True Crime Obsessed

Episode 487: Manhunt: Joanne Dennehy
Date: March 3, 2026

---

Episode Overview

In this episode, Patrick Hinds and Gillian Pensavalle (TCO hosts) dive into the chilling, rapid-fire killing spree of Britain’s most notorious female serial killer, Joanne Dennehy, as detailed in the Amazon Prime documentary "Manhunt: Joanne Dennehy." Known for their signature blend of humor and real talk, the hosts break down Dennehy’s shocking crimes, the surreal details of the case, and the utter darkness (with plenty of comic relief) that surrounds this infamous ten-day manhunt. Along the way, they scrutinize the dynamic between Dennehy and her towering sidekick, Gary "Stretch" Richards, the bumbling ineptitude and terror, the police’s desperate pursuit, and what made Dennehy’s case a horrifying anomaly in UK criminal history.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Who Was Joanne Dennehy?

• Dennehy is described as “Britain’s most infamous female serial killer”—a title even the hosts admit is well-earned given the brutality of her crimes (~[04:21]–[04:36]).
• She became only the third woman in Britain to receive a whole life sentence; her motivations appeared to be pure thrill-seeking and bloodlust ([02:58], [44:43]).
• The entire crime spree unfolded over just ten days, a fact emphasized for its sheer velocity and terror ([04:43]–[04:59]).

Notable Quote:
"She really is just out for blood and death and carnage. Like, she really. That's all she wanted to do. She had, like. She was, like, bloodthirsty. It's fucking crazy." —Patrick ([04:36])

2. The Crime Spree: Timeline & Victims

• March 29, 2013 (Peterborough): Police are notified about missing man Kevin Lee; his burned car and blood in his apartment raise alarms ([04:59]–[05:53]).
• Body Discovery: A dog walker finds Kevin Lee's body in a ditch—remote, clearly staged, multiple stab wounds ([05:53]–[07:18]).
• Dennehy's Accomplice: Enter Gary "Stretch" Richards, Dennehy’s hulking, 7’7” right-hand man, alongside Mark Lloyd, who describes himself as a hostage swept into the chaos ([10:23]–[13:55]).
• The duo plus hostage Mark attempt to sell stolen electronics, commit violent attacks, and roam the countryside—often documented on CCTV ([12:23]–[16:20]).

Quote/Comic Relief:
"The last name could not be more apt. It'd be like if my last name was Gay, like Patrick Gay. He's over seven feet tall." —Patrick ([10:46])

3. Murder Attempts & Survivors

• Shocking randomness: Dennehy attacks Robin Bereza and John Rogers—both men out walking dogs. Both manage to survive despite the savagery.
• Dennehy’s “itch to scratch”—she demands Gary find her male victims, explicitly rejecting women and children. Attack scenes are described through Mark Lloyd’s eyes ([18:04]–[19:08], [22:04]–[25:03]).

Notable Quote:
"She was so agitated and so wanting to kill someone. So I just thought, look, let's just get them on the road. If she's on the road, she ain't killing anybody. And then she said to Gary, 'Find me a victim. Find me a victim. No women, no children. I want a man with a dog.'" —Mark Lloyd ([18:04])

4. Dennehy’s Personality, Manipulation, and Motives

• Frequently flips from brutality to flirtation—she objectifies people, uses her sexuality and erratic behavior for control and attention ([16:49]–[17:13], [35:08]–[37:10]).
• Seemingly enjoys the spectacle and manipulative power, likening herself to Bonnie and Clyde ([37:16]).
• She is described as seeking infamy as much as thrills, entering the investigation and even her arrest with disturbing casualness ([35:46]–[36:14]).

Notable Moments:
"She is so casual. She's leaning on the counter. She's, like, spelling her name and answering questions like it's nothing. She's flirting with everyone. Everyone here, cops included, are having a grand old time." —Patrick ([35:08])
"At one point, she starts singing. Singing in the Rain? Yeah, she's, like, singing and dancing around." ([36:53])

5. The Police Manhunt & Investigation

• CCTV coverage in the UK is credited for quickly tracking movements, identifying the car Dennehy and Stretch used, and piecing together the spree ([17:56]–[18:04]).
• The urgency to catch the suspects is heightened by the randomness of attacks and the fear that “it could keep happening” ([23:26]–[24:09]).
• Police and journalist commentary reinforce that Dennehy had no significant childhood trauma—a rare “no warning” profile for a serial killer ([25:40]–[26:26]).

6. Dennehy’s Backstory

• Raised in a loving, stable home—no obvious triggers for her future violence, described as smart and social through age 14 ([25:40]–[26:49]).
• Rapid decline: Heavy drinking/drug use, running away from home, then relationships with much older, abusive, or manipulative men ([26:49]–[32:45]).
• The hosts are particularly horrified by her relationship at 15 with a 21-year-old man (John Treanor) ([32:00]–[32:45]).

Notable Quote:
"He's 21, she's 15. You have nothing to say to each other. And that's where I say, over my dead fucking body." —Gillian ([32:15])

7. Capture and Sentencing

• After a series of attacks and attempted transactions, Dennehy is calmly arrested and seems to enjoy the attention ([34:00]–[35:08]).
• In court, she surprises all by pleading guilty—a final act of control that denies the prosecution a full airing of motive ([49:53]–[50:07]).

Notable Quote:
"Joanna Dennehy stood up and said guilty, which took us all by surprise. That was Joanna's final act of control." —Documentary participant ([49:53])

• Stretch (Gary Richards): Tries to minimize involvement but is found guilty—sentenced to 19 to life ([51:06]).

8. Analysis of Dennehy’s Crimes

• Unusual for the UK—rare to have serial killers, much less a woman; the speed and randomness are especially terrifying ([38:08], [45:06]).
• Panel consensus: No “real” motive—pure thrill, power, and bloodlust; victims chosen at random for the opportunity, not out of personal animosity ([44:43]–[45:23]).

Notable Quote:
"She just wants to kill. They said the word bloodlust in this more than I heard it in the nine years we've been doing this." —Gillian ([45:07])

---

Memorable Quotes & Comic Relief

• “The Kingdom of Britain names are like fantastical! ...He sent me the Wikipedia link for a town called Shitterton.” —Patrick ([03:37]–[04:13])
• About Gary “Stretch”: “The last name could not be more apt. ...He’s over 7 feet tall. ...That’s not over 7 feet, that’s almost eight feet.” —Patrick & Gillian ([10:46]–[11:00])
• On Dennehy’s manipulative powers: “She’s like, drive faster! I want to kill people. Let’s go.” ([15:21])
• About Dennehy’s tattoos: “She had this really fucking ugly star tattoo on her cheek that she probably did herself. Like, not easy to miss.” —Gillian ([22:41])
• On relationship red flags: “What does a 21-year-old want with a 15-year-old girl? That’s disgusting.” —Patrick ([32:39])

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |-----------|--------------| | 02:13 | Episode theme & documentary title—name confusion (Joanne/Joanna) | | 04:21 | Dennehy’s infamy, bloodthirsty motives, crime spree timeline | | 05:53 | First body discovered (Kevin Lee), remote countryside staging | | 10:23 | Introduction of Gary "Stretch" Richards & Mark Lloyd | | 13:55 | Mark becomes hostage, forced involvement begins | | 16:49 | Dennehy’s interpersonal manipulation, knife at Mark’s back | | 18:04 | Dennehy’s demands—victim selection, compulsive urge to kill | | 22:04 | Survivors Robin Bereza & John Rogers; random, vicious attacks | | 25:40 | Dennehy’s "normal" upbringing; descent into self-destructive behavior | | 32:00 | Relationship with John Trainor (age/social issues) | | 34:00 | Capture—police apprehend Dennehy, casual demeanor | | 35:46 | Police interrogation, Dennehy’s unbothered attitude, flirting | | 37:16 | Bonnie and Clyde self-aggrandizement; craving infamy | | 38:08 | Discovery and identification of more victims; escalation to serial killer status | | 44:43 | Police analysis of motivation—thrill-seeking, bloodlust | | 49:53 | Court scene, Dennehy’s surprise guilty plea—asserting control | | 51:06 | Sentencing—Gary Richards ("Stretch") gets 19 to life | | 52:10 | Episode wrap-up; preview of next multi-part documentary |

---

Final Thoughts and Context

The case of Joanne Dennehy is a rare, horrifying aberration—her willingness to kill at random, lack of personal connection to many victims, and her brief, explosive spree stand out not just in British, but global criminal history. The hosts speculate on the psychology and reinforce that, while her backstory includes teenage rebellion and self-harm, nothing foreshadowed her complete break with humanity.

The hosts take pains to balance horror with humor, frequently calling out double-standards and emphasizing the importance of not romanticizing killers who seek notoriety.

---

Next Time on True Crime Obsessed

• The next in-depth series: Andrea Yates: The Cult Behind the Killer (on HBO Max & Discovery)
• Part One releases in the regular feed; Part Two is on Patreon the same day.
• Discussion preview: The Yates case is “not what you think,” hinting at nuance beyond sensationalized media portrayals ([52:10]–[53:07]).

---

This summary omits sponsor ads, standard intros and outros, and sticks strictly to the substantive content and signature banter that define True Crime Obsessed.

Transcript

[A]

Girl, I've got breaking Paula Cole news.

[B]

What's going on?

[A]

So remember I told you that the best concert I ever went to, she did my favorite album on tour for the 20th anniversary. She's doing it for the 30th. I got tickets for my friend Mike and I to see her at the Wilbur in Boston.

[B]

Shut up.

[A]

I got the presale. I learned how to get a pre sale. I got the pre sale code. I got a front row. We are like touching the stage and. And we get the soundcheck experience. We get to go to sound check.

[B]

That is the coolest thing ever. You're gonna meet her.

[A]

I know. I was shaking when I. Cause I had Ticketmaster made me reset my password. The tickets were in the cart. I was. I felt all the Swifties pain, like, all at once.

[B]

I gotta say, as someone who recently lost the latest Harry Styles ticket war, congratulations.

[C]

Thank you.

[B]

I'm so glad you won. I'm so excited for you. And it's gonna be Hugh. When is it?

[A]

September 18th. And you know what I don't wanna do? I don't wanna wait for September 18th. Did I do it?

[B]

You did it.

[A]

Thank you so much. You did it.

[B]

Congratulations. That's huge.

[A]

Thank you. Hi. Julian Benzavalli.

[C]

Hello.

[B]

Patrick Hines.

[A]

Fam. Join us on the Patreon, but only if you want like a ton. Like over 500 full ad free bonus episodes.

[B]

Yeah. So you get bonus episodes like the regular feed that are ad free.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And then you also get bonus episodes like the series that we're doing. Like right now. We're doing Don't Date Brandon. We just did the Philly mob thing. We're doing Steph Gotti. We're doing Rocky Mountain Mortician Murder. We're doing One Night in Idaho. Like all those ones with multiple apps.

[A]

Yeah. Over 500 of them there. Our drag. Bingo. We're bringing it back four times a year. We got that coming up in about a month.

[B]

It's gonna be great.

[A]

We've got a tier. Sometimes we do recaps of mob wives and we send you calendars or like

[B]

Unsolved Mysteries or, I don't know, other things that we might be doing.

[A]

Tell them what we've got. Coming up on the hero bell tier.

[B]

We're doing Predators.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Because we're. I don't know, we're not doing it on the regular feed, but I have

[C]

a lot of stuff.

[A]

We did that Lori Vallow thing with Keith Morrison. Anyway, there's so much over there. What's the other thing we Gotta tell

[B]

them Discord, I think.

[C]

All right, great.

[A]

Tell them about the disc.

[B]

We have a Discord server and it's really fun and it's really cute and everyone's really nice and we have a whole bunch of channels where you can talk about like TCO stuff and a lot of like, not TCO stuff. It's cute.

[A]

Patrick does not know how to get there.

[B]

No, but it's fun.

[A]

Everybody else is having a good time over there.

[B]

If you don't know how to get there. Dear listener, there's a link in the show notes.

[A]

And now I know. That's all I needed.

[B]

That's it.

[A]

All right, girl. What are we talking about? What are we. Why are we talking about this?

[B]

Okay, so this is called Manhunt. Joanne Dennehy. It's on Amazon Prime. This is weird because some people say Joanna, but it's Joanne. She herself says Joanne. The name of the doc says Joanne with an e. I don't think we

[A]

need to worry too much about getting her fucking name or something.

[B]

I know she's a murderer, but like, I'm just saying, like, some people will say Joanna. Like, and I've read articles, it goes

[A]

back and forth in the doc too. Some people say Joanne, some people say

[B]

Joanna, but it was just so weird.

[A]

But it's feels like a British thing.

[B]

But also like the headline articles online will have like Joanne in the headline and then Joanna in the body of the article. Like, people are having on everybody.

[A]

Get us together.

[B]

It's very odd. A mother who murdered three men and attempted to kill two others in Cambridgeshire has become only the third woman in Britain to receive a whole life sentence.

[C]

For Joanne Dennehy, it's absolutely the right thing that she won't come out of prison. The motivations for her was seeking that infamy as well as control other people and some people being put under a spell. She wanted to be known for murdering, for causing these horrific crimes. Joanne Denny is the most dangerous woman British criminal history has ever known.

[A]

This is going to get dark and bad. So can I tell you something funny?

[B]

Cute.

[A]

So as I was taking my notes today, like, the names of the places in the Kingdom of Britain are like fantastical. You know what I mean?

[C]

Sure.

[A]

Like, I can't even think of them now. We'll get there when we get there.

[B]

Shire. I know that's New Zealand. Don't come for me. I know that's very.

[A]

I was texting with my friend Adam who lives in the uk. He's like. And he's Canadian, so he's like, not from there. He's like, the names here are crazy. He's like, look at this. This is a real place. He sent me the Wikipedia link for a town called Shitterton.

[B]

Is that how you say it, though?

[A]

Shitter? Well, maybe. I don't know.

[B]

That's the. It's. That's the.

[A]

Because I was like, how is there not a parody of Bridgerton called Shitterton?

[B]

It's called Schitt's Creek, you know what I mean?

[A]

But I mean, I'm just saying, when handed something like Shitterton, you should do something with it, don't you think?

[B]

But they didn't.

[A]

I know.

[B]

Joanna Dennehy is, according to the on screen text, Britain's most infamous female serial killer. They tell us, like, you have Rose West, Fred Rose west, you have the Moore's murders, and now Joanne Dennehy.

[A]

And you know what? She's pretty bad. Like, I'm going to give it to them for her being the most infamous.

[B]

She really is just out for blood and death and carnage. Like, she really. That's all she wanted to do. She had, like. She was like, bloodthirsty. It's fucking crazy.

[A]

That's what they keep saying. And I want to point out at the top here, fam, this entire thing takes place over the course of 10 days.

[B]

Yep. She murdered three men in 10 days

[A]

and, like, maimed and, like, did a horrible. Like, there's so many people that were affected in this.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

This whole thing takes place in the span of 10 freaking.

[B]

I know.

[A]

So we're in Peterborough. It's March 29, 2013. A cop gets a call about a missing man named Kevin Lee. His family been looking for him. And all we know is that his vehicle was seen speeding away from, like, the last location where his family knew he was.

[B]

Right. And so Jeff Hill, the cop, is here and he says the police subsequently

[C]

found that vehicle on fire across at Yaxley, which was the point at which someone said, hang on, you know, we need somebody to have a look at this. Because these two events together make this something of concern.

[B]

The car had been set on fire.

[A]

Yeah. I love that they're like, and now we need to look into it. I was like, yeah, that's a good indication, please. And the car just, by the way, is like, burned out. Out. Like, we see the car, it was not just set on fire, it was like intentionally meant to be destroyed for sure. Yeah.

[B]

And so the cops go to the address where the car was seen, like, where it was seen speeding away and there's blood in the apartment. So, yeah, they're very, very concerned, obviously.

[A]

So then, March 20, 2013. A dog discovers a body in a ditch. And the body was positioned in such a way that it seems like it was, like, either dumped from a car or staged.

[B]

And I'm like, well, those options seem really different.

[A]

I totally agree. I have the totally.

[B]

The same note or two very different things.

[A]

It's true.

[B]

I get that, like, sometimes that's the. Like, two very different things could be a possibility. But the way they said it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All in the same rhythm, I was kind of like, oh, I agree. Hit the or.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It wasn't like or.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I gotta tell you, too, this is a very good documentary. But they do do that thing where they tell us a lot of the same information twice. Like, they'll tell us what happened and then take us to the place where it happened and tell us all over again.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, this does seem like. Wait, what?

[A]

There's a lot of.

[B]

Wait, what Moments in it, you know, because it's just like, this is. She's just crazy and wants to kill men and does. That's all it is.

[A]

And there's, like, terrifying pictures. I will have. There's a picture that we see of her with the most intricately carved knife. It is a knife from, like, a horror movie. Like, you would literally, like, see, like, a monster at a horror movie. Like, hold it up and the light would hit it just right. Like, it is absolutely terrifying. But the body that they found in

[C]

this ditch, that body was identified as that of Kevin Lee. Kevin Lee had died as a consequence of multiple stab wounds to the upper part of his body. This is an ideal spot, I think, for somebody looking to dispose of a body and not have it discovered for a period of time. It's a really remote area.

[B]

This was a very, very remote area. So the cops are saying Kevin was not killed here, and they also don't know who did this.

[A]

Yeah. I gotta hand it to the drone operator, like, this area of the British countryside is beautiful. And we have the cop, like, standing over the ditch and, like, a drone fly. I'm like, God damn.

[B]

I know.

[A]

I didn't know. Like, I mean, I know that, like, Britain is beautiful, but I didn't think of it as, like, far away.

[B]

Oh, the countryside. Oh, my God.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Stunning.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Have you been stunning, as they say, stunning to the British countryside?

[A]

No, no. We just know.

[B]

Not for any reason. I've just only been to a lot.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think it's beautiful though.

[A]

Look, next up there's a thing where you can walk the moors. It's like a hundred mile walk and you stop like every 10 miles and like the pubs will like put you up and you can like I was just looking learning about this on TikTok Tok the other day. It's so beautiful girl. Stamps.com is back. You know what is insane to me how to this very day some small business owners are still making post office runs or worse, stuck with expensive postage meter leases.

[B]

Yeah, what is this? 1926? Not to 2026. Come on.

[A]

It is not famous stamps.com you can send from your computer or phone 24 7. We're talking no long lines, no low supplies open any time. You can print postage on demand and get up to 90% off carrier rates like FedEx, UPS and USPS. Who is still going to the post office.

[B]

Seriously. Especially when you can schedule carrier pickups right from your door and get carrier compliant labels every single time. That means no errors, no rejected mail, no wasted trips.

[A]

It is perfect for your business. It has been perfect for ours for years. You send certified mail, you get document tracking to confirm every delivery and analytics to make sure you know exactly what you've sent and sent spent.

[B]

No more guesswork. You know, used to send stuff and be like, well, I hope it gets there.

[A]

Yeah, what are we? My crystal ball mind I am not so fam right now. You can try stamps.com risk free for

[B]

60 days, go to stamps.com and use code tco to get 60 days risk free.

[A]

60 days gives you plenty of time to see exactly how much time and money you're saving on every shipment.

[B]

That's stamps.com code tco.

[A]

That's stamps.com code TCO.

[B]

I mean come on. Okay, so Kevin was supposed to meet a woman the day he went missing. And the woman is Joanne Dennehy.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And they say that she has this extensive criminal history. But I just want to be clear. She wasn't like murderous like the all the murderous behavior was in these 10 days. Because we'll hear that like she had committed quote, offenses of dishonesty. And I'm like, I know people who should sit in a corner and think about their dishonesty. How do we get them to the UK?

[A]

100%. Yeah. All of her stuff up until like her murder spree was like low level,

[B]

like shoplifting, she was stealing from gas stations.

[A]

Like don't do that. But like also she wasn't like a criminal mastermind.

[B]

Right. But like she did that A lot.

[A]

She did love to do that.

[B]

She loved to do that. But she was known as the cops as like this low level criminal.

[A]

And she was also one of the tenants of this guy, Kevin Lee, who's been found in the ditch. So Kevin was supposed to meet her that day. She knew him because she was renting an apartment from him. So, like, the cops are starting to connect the dots.

[B]

Right? So now we have to learn about Gary Stretch, who's another quote, well known criminal figure.

[C]

He had an extensive criminal past, lots of offenses of dishonest periods of time in prison. When we were looking to locate Joanna Dennehy, she had gone missing and Gary Stretch had gone missing at the same time.

[A]

The last name could not be more apt. It'd be like if my last name was Gay, like Patrick Gay.

[B]

He's over seven feet tall.

[A]

He's seven seven.

[B]

And like they say right now, over seven feet tall. And then later we hear seven, seven. I'm like, that's not over seven feet tall. That's almost eight feet.

[A]

That's almost eight feet tall.

[B]

Those are two different.

[A]

I know somebody that tall. Like a friend of Natalie Grillo's is that tall.

[B]

Oh, yeah, Oliver.

[A]

Oliver, his name is. He goes by Ollie. I call him Tally. I'm sure I invented that.

[B]

Oh, gosh.

[A]

And I know every time he comes over, I'm like, hey, Ollie, can you dust the top? Like, I do all of the things.

[B]

Why do you do that?

[A]

I don't know. But also, Natalie and Ollie would rent cars together. And in my mind, like, I've told her this a thousand times, it is them in a car, to me is like a cartoon of her driving and him in the passenger seat with his head out the center.

[B]

But he's not 7 7.

[A]

He's pretty close. I mean, I haven't measured him. I'll find out how tall he is. And he's British, so he probably does it in meters. But, like, I. He's very tall.

[B]

He's very tall.

[A]

He says that, like, people will come up to him and ask to take their picture.

[B]

Like, because he's so tall, everyone's gotta get.

[A]

I know, I know, I know. Pretty good natured, I know.

[B]

Anyway, but here's the thing. So this guy is almost 8ft tall. And Joanne had these really ugly face tattoos.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Point is, these two are hard to miss. So the cops want the public's help, so they tell, why are they not

[A]

the hard to miss killers? You know what I mean?

[B]

Fuck them, because that's too cool of a name.

[A]

They're awesome, I guess, but if we're doing that. The hard to miss killers, That's a good one.

[B]

They're very hard to miss.

[A]

The guy's last name is Stretch and he's seven.

[B]

Seven, but is that. I don't know, is that really his name?

[A]

Maybe not. Maybe that was his prison name. It's just a little too close.

[B]

He's so annoying.

[A]

I know.

[B]

So 72 hours after Kevin Lee's body was found, they find these two fucking goons on SC CCTV footage.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they meet up with this guy named Mark Lloyd. And Mark is here with us.

[A]

So the thing about Mark, I knew Gary from prison.

[C]

He was a friendly chat. He's a gentle John. He was. He was in for doing silly things like burglaries, which he couldn't fit through windows, old things.

[A]

And then he met her.

[B]

Well, he was a lovely guy, super friendly in prison.

[A]

And you know what? Mark is going to stick to that story all throughout. Like, this guy's Stretch, except for when he's like holding Mark down to make him take a picture. He's like a puff, according to Mark.

[B]

That's what he says.

[A]

But you know, he calls him a gentle giant. And, you know, we go to Hertfordshire. No, no, Herefordshire.

[B]

It's. I think it's. I googled it. Herefordshire.

[A]

I think Herefordshire.

[B]

I'm sorry, everyone. I'm so sorry.

[A]

I should be allowed to say shire.

[B]

I think it's Herefordshire. I don't know, Herefordshire, something like that.

[A]

Herefordshire.

[B]

I really, really apologize. I know you're gonna come for me.

[A]

I want to say shire, okay? But we learned that Mark learns that Gary is on the run for murder. And Mark gets literally tricked into going to Gary's house. And basically, like, Marco's like, hey, friend, come over. He gets there, Joanna is there. All of a sudden he's like in the room. He realizes, like, this is a really scary situation. There's like thousands of dollars of electronics on the table. And they say to him, like, call people that will buy this from us or we're gonna kill you.

[B]

Right? And so, like, Mark is told, and

[C]

he said in the kitchen, look, Mark, you have to. You have to do what she says or she will kill you. And then I've said to Gary, said, gary, you really killed someone. And that's when Joanne Dennett said, no, Mark, he's the taxi driver. I do the killing.

[B]

I don't kill anybody. I just do anything that this Joanne person wants and she kills people. I'm just the driver.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And so Mark makes, like, two phone calls and finds someone who wants to buy all of these electronics.

[A]

Yeah. So, like, they pile into the car to go drive to this person. But, like, Mark is a hostage. Like, Mark is the guy that, like, made the deal, and Mark is the guy that knows guy that's going to buy this stuff. But Mark is a hostage.

[B]

Yeah. She's, like, waving this knife around. She's clearly unhinged. She has this goon who's seven. Seven, like, doing all of her dirty work for her, except for the killing, because she has to do it herself because she's literally, like, craving murder.

[A]

I know.

[B]

Crazy.

[A]

She's also drinking a bottle of what we will find out later is very expensive whiskey. And I kept getting. Because we're in the uk and the driver's side is on the other side. She's what. In what looks like the driver's side to me. But she's not driving.

[B]

Yeah, no, no, no.

[A]

And she's, like, pounding whiskey on this.

[B]

This.

[A]

On this, like, drive. And it's, like, going back and forth between, like, trying to be friendly with Mark, but also making it clear that he's a prisoner and has to do what they tell him to do.

[B]

And also taking a lot of photos, like, making it look like it's a super fun road trip. And it's very much not.

[A]

No. They're stopping on, like, the English countryside to get pictures of her in front of, like, literally hay bales, as she's about to, like, do a reign of terror.

[B]

I don't know why she's. Because she keeps saying to Gary, like, gary, drive faster. Like, I want to kill people. Let's go.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like, stop taking pictures.

[A]

Then I think that it's, like, further to, like, just how out of her mind she is. Like, this woman, and we're gonna learn about her later. Like, managed to get through all of her life without murdering anybody. Yet in the next couple of days, she's gonna try to kill 10 people. And so it's like, this is it. I think, you know, we were talking about this a little bit before. Like, I think that she's been escalating to this and she's been suppressing these urges. And today it's a party for her. This is like a. Today is like, her party day.

[B]

And, like, we see a lot of the CCTV footage and they stop off for cigarettes and they, like, follow Mark. And Mark, who's here with us today, the hostage, into the store.

[C]

She didn't trust me. So she followed me in immed. She was right behind me. It looks like she's hugging me. She's not hugging me. She's got the knife in me back like that.

[B]

It looks like she's hugging me. She's not. She is, like, pushing a knife into my back as a warning to, like, don't fuck around.

[A]

And they have this moment and, like, again, like, the UK is covered in CCTV footage and I don't care what anybody says, cover the world in it. Like, I like this. They find these people so fast because of this. But, like, I'm fine. Like, let's get all the bad guys. But Joanna has this moment and it's not going to be the last time we're going to see this where the. The cashier opens the till and Mark thinks that she's going to, like, rob her, but instead she just starts flirting with her. And, like, what they call flirting is really just, like, objectifying this woman totally.

[B]

Like, talking about her hair and her butt and her body and all this stuff and that sort of, like, is the big distraction. So she, like, flirts with everybody and

[A]

she doesn't, like, rob the till, but, like, it's part of her. We'll learn more about this later. How she goes back and forth from being, like a monster to being, like, a flirt and being like whatever the kind of person she needs to be to sort of win the control of the person she's talking to.

[B]

We see it all the time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, she's just out of her fucking mind.

[A]

She's out of her mind.

[B]

Now we're back with the police. There's this nationwide manhunt. They have the task force and they have one lead so far, that these two, like, goons were seen shoplifting at a gas station. And again, they're on CCTV and they can't say for sure, but, like, obviously at this point, the investigation, they're like, we're not sure who. If that's them, it is.

[A]

And they've got the car in the license plate too. So, like, that. That's how they're able to, like, track their movements now. And you would think, too, as, like, a killer on a killing spree, you would know that your country is covered in these CCTV cameras.

[B]

She cares.

[A]

I think you're right. I think you're right.

[B]

I think she knows that, like, this is only 10 days max and I think she's, like, just going to go as far as she can.

[A]

Yep, yep.

[B]

That's what I think.

[A]

And because we see, like, how they're able to like follow, like with the CCTV cameras. They follow the car until the camera can't see it anymore. And then another camera just picks it up.

[B]

The way Mark describes it, it's like it's an itch to scratch.

[C]

She was so agitated and so wanting to kill someone. So I just thought, look, let's just get them on the road. If she's on the road, she ain't killing anybody. And then she said to Gary, find me a victim. Find me a victim. No women, no children. I want a man with a dog.

[B]

She's like, I need to kill somebody right now. Like it's an emergency. Yes.

[A]

Like she's been waiting to do this all of her life and today is the day.

[B]

And she also knows the clock is ticking.

[A]

And the clock is ticking.

[B]

Know. But she says, like, I need a victim. It has to be a man. No women, no kids. It has to be a guy walking

[A]

his dog, which is okay, I guess,

[B]

cause he's a little distracted maybe, I guess that's.

[A]

And he's not gonna run away, I guess, cuz he's got the dog. So they see a man with a dog. Gary Stretch literally says to her, will he do? Joanna's like, yep. She jumps out of the car. Now she's got this knife, we've heard about this knife the whole time, caked in blood. It's like big and bloody and. And it's just awful. She runs up to this guy and just stabs him in broad daylight. And what Mark says, it seems like it was like 20 times.

[B]

And Mark is like, Mark and Stretch are in the car. And Mark's like, dude, what the hell? Like, what is happening? And he. And the eight foot goon is like, you can't stop her.

[A]

She's just.

[B]

And I'm like, you can't. You can pick her up with one hand.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You can't stop her.

[A]

We're gonna learn later. He's gonna be tall. The reason that he doesn't stop her is because he just likes having the attention of a woman he thinks is beautiful.

[B]

She's been using that.

[A]

Yeah, she like hates him. Like. And that's the other thing is that like we're kind of told that they're kind of together, but they aren't.

[B]

Like they're not together. She gets Dan and not according to.

[A]

No, exactly, girl. Look, just because it's winter does not mean there is any time to sleep on your hydration. Let's talk about drip drop.

[B]

We are year round hydration, girlies.

[A]

Yes, we absolutely are.

[B]

And also, Mike loves it. Mike is a hydration girl.

[A]

I know. Tell me everything about what Mike loves.

[B]

Well, Mike loves. It's like he doesn't really love drinking plain water.

[A]

Same.

[B]

So Drip Drop helps him stay hydrated because the flavors are delicious. Get like fruity and get citrusy. And it's like part of his daily ritual and it's been so easy to implement. And he's more hydrated than ever.

[A]

100%. And also the thing about hydration is that it makes an instant difference. Like you wake up dehydrated, you don't even know why, you don't feel well, you throw your drip drop in your water, you drink the whole thing and it works instantly.

[B]

Yeah. It's proven fast hydration and uses science based formulas for rapid hydration. So you feel results fast when getting three times the electrolytes of leading sports drinks.

[A]

Exactly. Look, we're all obsessed with Drip Drop fam. And look, Drip Drop is trusted by firefighters, medical professionals, and over 90% of top college and pro sports teams.

[B]

Yeah. And Drip drop just dropped zero sugar plus a breakthrough formula with an advanced blend of six key electrolytes, 15 essential vitamins and nutrients, and no sugar or artificial sweeteners.

[A]

But guess what? It's still delicious.

[B]

Well, yeah, that too.

[A]

Also, there are 16 original flavors, fam. And eight zero sugar plus options.

[B]

Yeah. I love the lemon flavor, the orange flavor, but you get like a berry flavor too.

[A]

So I love the berry, I love the orange. But I do always start with the lemon lime in the morning because that's a good way to wake yourself up.

[B]

Yes, exactly.

[A]

So, fam, right now Drip drop is offering TCO listeners 20% off your first

[B]

order, go to drip drop.com and use promo code TCO.

[A]

That's drip drop.com promo code TCO. For 20% off, stock up now@drip drop.com

[B]

and use promo code tco.

[A]

Did you like how I enunciated 20%?

[B]

I really liked it. I heard it, I like it, I respect it.

[A]

Feel seen and heard.

[B]

Thank you. So within three to four minutes, this is back in the car.

[C]

I'm thinking, well, someone's got to make a phone call. We're going to get stopped at the traffic lights. We're going to get held up on the bridge. I also thought the bloke was dead. And then she just literally got back in and said, find me a little.

[B]

The man has been stabbed. The poor dog's been traumatized. And she's like, all right, let's go find Me another one. Like, we have to get another one right now.

[A]

She thinks he's dead. Like, like, the man must have stopped moving because I think she would not have left him until he was dead. But he left.

[B]

So we finally get his name. His name is Robin Bareza. And it's like a super vicious random attack. And he breaks his arm trying to defend himself. Like, this guy lives.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But, like, the cops are like, oh, wait, Robin. Like, they know him from around town because he's a retired firefighter. He was a postal worker. He was a runner. So he was, like, always out and

[A]

around and, like, fit and in shape and still broke his arm defending himself against this woman.

[B]

He was able to get up and take his poor dog, like, and walk to his dad's house because I guess he was like, right around the corner. That's where the ambulance was called. And he was able to tell them everything because he survived. She left him for dead. And he made it.

[A]

Yes. It's unbelievable.

[B]

And so Robin's like, yeah, she had this really fucking ugly star tattoo on her cheek that she probably did herself.

[A]

Like, not easy to miss. I know.

[B]

Ugly tattoos.

[A]

Oh, I know. Oh, yeah.

[B]

So much as someone without them.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I just.

[A]

Do you have any tattoos at all?

[B]

I don't.

[A]

No. Me either. No. I'm too scared. I couldn't do it.

[B]

I don't know. I just feel like one day I'd be like, I hate this now.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, like, what do I do about this now? And I guess you can get them removed, but, like, that's a whole Rick and moral time and even more pain. Painful. A beautiful tattoo. I have this new friend, this guy Aaron, who's like another gay history nerd like me. He is covered in, like, the most gorgeous artistic tattoos.

[B]

Such an art form, I think so that, like, I know it's possible, even, like, simple ones, it's possible to have, like, really simple, gorgeous tattoos. But she just, like, did this to herself. It looks like crazy.

[A]

Well, we meet Ivan. He's like the chief of police. He is here because Mark is saying, like, this was. Mark the hostage is like, this was an attack in the middle of the day. Like, somebody had to have seen something. Somebody's going to call the cops. Somebody does call the cops. I guess it was the victim's dad.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And Ivan, you know, he's here with us now. And his whole thing is this was completely random. This woman had no connection to the victim. Like, this is absolutely terrifying.

[C]

I am thinking this is school holidays. This is a Nice day. There are loads of children and families out on the streets when perhaps normally they would be in. So I didn't know what was going to unfold, but that was really, really forefront of my mind that we needed to get hold of this really, really quickly.

[A]

The urgency to find these people is at a million.

[B]

And so, you know, she's very distinct. This tattoo is really distinctive. So the cops are like, great. Like, a face tattoo is always helpful when trying to find somebody because not everybody has that.

[A]

Yes. So not. Not anybody has that. Yeah.

[B]

She gets into the car and she's like, find me another one. So two miles later, there's another victim named John Rogers, also walking his dog.

[A]

No, this guy's much older and, like, in much poorer health.

[B]

Yeah, it sucks. It's like she wants, like, for the lack of a better term, I don't mean to sound cold, but, like, an easy kill. Like, she just wants to viciously stab these men.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And there's something about it, about, like, how did she. I don't know exactly how old she is, but how did she manage to make herself wait this long? Because she, like, she is so desperate to do it.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. She's. She is so the same thing. She gets out of the car, she stabs him many times. Mark is like, I cannot tell you how brutal it was.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And she leaves him for dead and steals his dog, Archie.

[A]

Oh, my God. She. I thought of you immediately, covered in

[B]

blood, shaking like a leaf.

[A]

I know.

[B]

Thing. And up, like. And this is when one of the cops is like, just a reminder. Up until yesterday, she was a low level petty criminal.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's not like she was assaulting people before. It's not like she showed any other real violence, at least on the record. Like she was stealing shit from gas stations and now she's violently stabbing men and stealing their dogs.

[A]

So Laura Hill, the dog is.

[B]

Archie's fine, by the way.

[A]

And John does live. God love this guy. Like, older, sickly, like, survives this brutal attack in the middle of the day. So we meet Laura Hill. She's a journalist. We're in Harpenden, and we get Joanna's

[B]

backstory and Laura's like, she had a pretty good life. Like, nothing glaring. She had this stable upbringing that we're told her dad was a security guard, her mom was a hotel manager. She had a big house. She didn't really want for anything.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

She got along with her sister a. Like.

[A]

And her parents, like, loved her, so we're told. We get this guy, Christopher Barry, D He's a criminologist and author. He says something kind of problematic in a minute that I don't like. But he seems to really know this case and he seems to really, like, understand where she comes from. And basically he was like, mother was

[C]

very, very loving to her and they wanted the best for Joe. I mean, there was no doubt about it.

[B]

There weren't really any signs in her early childhood that she was going to be problematic.

[A]

Her parents loved her, wanted the best for her. Like, nobody in a million years ever would have seen this coming.

[B]

Like, because we're told, especially in school, I mean, up until she's 14, she's like the smart, well adjusted, social kid.

[A]

Yeah. At like private school. Like the private school that was like the envy of the neighborhood or whatever.

[B]

But something happened to her when she's 14 years old where she starts hanging out with these fairground workers who are inexplicably hanging out with a 14 year old girl. And she starts drinking, they say, like hard booze, like, not beer.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like legit fudgeing hard booze and doing super hard drugs. At 14 years old. Because she's hanging around with these fairground workers who I promise you should not be hanging around 14 year old girls.

[A]

And I'll tell you, like, I was thinking about this. This happened to a girl that I knew, that I grew up with that like. And she just, just became a complete. She like fell in with a much older crowd when we were in eighth grade and like vanished off the face of the planet. And it completely changed her personality. Like, kids, and especially girls at that age are so vulnerable. And when you start doing like drugs to your brain at that age, it can do irreversible damage.

[B]

Yeah. And like she starts from home. She ran away eight times. The cops were always bringing her back. I'm just wondering, like, what these people, these like fairground workers, how old were they? What was happening to her? Of course, like, was she being assaulted in this time? We're not told that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I'm very curious, like, what kind of bad situations were happening when you're doing drugs with the guys from the fucking Fairground who are 22?

[A]

I couldn't agree more. And it's like, like, as a parent, like the heartbreak of hearing that she's like running away eight times. Because what do you do? You know what I mean? Like, do you, what do you do? I was having this conversation with our friend Jen the other day that was like, what. What would you ever do if like Daisy wants to sneak Out. I'm like, well, we've already begun that conversation. But like, I guess you become that parent that sleeps in front of the door. Like, it's. Yeah.

[B]

I don't know, it's.

[A]

It's a terrifying thing to have a, like a, an almost 12 year old kid because you're like, this is where it's gonna go, good or bad. You know what I mean?

[B]

I never had any reason to. I had never had any motivation or interest in sneaking out because I was super. My parents and I were honest with each other.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. And that's how we are too.

[B]

My parents knew, my friends, they knew the. Like. If I said, I say that I use this example all the time. If I say I'm sleeping at Jane's house. I was sleeping at Jane's house.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they knew Mr. And Mrs. Luger and they could call them up and like, you know what I mean? Like, they knew each other. We knew Ashley's parents. Ashley's out, you know, like, so if I said, like, mom, we're going and like, you know, the thing you hate is like, yeah, mom, there will be drinking. We are going to the bar. Like. But everybody knew where everybody was. So I had no motivation to sneak out because there was honesty. And if I ever got in trouble, I could make a phone call.

[A]

Yeah, Yeah. I will probably hate that less as we get there. It will make more sense when she's 15 or 16 than it does now thinking about that. But like, yeah. And it does make you wonder Joanna's relationship with her parents. And we know nothing. So I'm not judging at all.

[B]

Right. And I'm not saying my is like the universal thing. I'm just saying, like, to you, like, personally in particular, like, not every kid is going to want to sneak out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And not every kid with a great family is going to want to stay home. You know what I'm saying?

[A]

Like, it's just so heartbreaking to think that, like, this is where whatever went wrong, went wrong and nobody could fix it. Girl, Quince is back. And you know what 2026 is all about? Quality over quantity. That is like one of the 90 million reasons why I love the quints. Yeah.

[B]

I caught myself the other day and I'm like, oh, I am in basically head to toe. Quince. I had like my crew neck sweater that I loved wearing the jeans and I was using the nylon crossbody bag, which you know, I love. And I looked at myself and I

[A]

was like, oh, I told you there was a lady who came to my show this past summer with a sign that said thanks, it's quints because she was getting so many compliments. I'm not making that up.

[B]

Thanks. It's Quince is the new thanks. It has pockets 100%. And also I'm obsessed with their candles because they also have like housewares and like other things like that if you don't need any more clothes or whatever their candle smell.

[A]

Do you know when Steve heard our last ad, he went to quints and bought five candles.

[B]

So right?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I don't lie.

[A]

Also, Femme Quince works directly with safe, ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen. So you're not paying for the brand markup or fancy retail stores, just quality clothing and candles.

[B]

And they're like you can just. Their pieces are well made.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

It makes it so easy to be like, oh, here's a cute thing to wear. Oh, and you can do that for like the next 10 years.

[A]

It's also casual and fancy so you can like wear it like during the day and then like take it out to your fancy dinner and while your

[B]

house smells good because exactly so fam.

[A]

Right now go to quints.com/tco for free shipping and 365 day returns.

[B]

That's a full year to wear it and love it. And you will.

[A]

You will. Now available in Canada too. And don't keep settling for clothes that don't last.

[B]

Go to Q U I n c e.com/tco for free shipping and 365 day returns.

[A]

Quince.com/tco thank us later. Get your candles.

[B]

Look cute fam.

[A]

Get cozy because DraftKings Casino is turning up the heat this winter.

[B]

Play more than 1,000 slots, everything from classics like Cash Eruption to exclusives like Fire Buffalo.

[A]

New players can wager $5 and get 500 spins over 10 days on your choice of Cash Eruption slots.

[B]

Download the DraftKings Casino app, sign up with code TCO and start spinning. The crown is yours in partnership with

[A]

DraftKings Casino Gambling Problem call 1-800-GAMBLER in Connecticut. Help is available for problem gambling. Call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org Please play responsibly.

[B]

2721 plus physically present in Connecticut, Michigan, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, West Virginia only. Void in Ontario eligibility restrictions apply.

[A]

Non withdrawable casino spins issued as 50 spins per day for 10 days. Valid for featured games only and expire each day after 24 hours.

[B]

See [e-mail] Provost ends March 15, 2026 at 11:59pm Eastern Time. Well, it doesn't get any better because she meets this guy named John Trainor.

[C]

John trainor. He was 21 at the time. She was 15. And they started living in a dos bed sits mixed in with a lot of very, very rough people. And of course it got worse and worse.

[B]

He's 21, she's 15. You have nothing to say to each other.

[A]

And that's where I say, over my dead fucking body.

[B]

Like 21 and 15 is unbelievable. I'm not. She probably did not have permission. She was running away. But like as the 21 year old.

[A]

Yeah. No, it's. I mean not only is it illegal, I mean it's completely immoral.

[B]

There's nothing you say of like. No, well, we really, we were in love. No, you weren't.

[A]

No, you weren't.

[B]

You're not. Your brain isn't even fully formed as a 21 year old. I don't want to hear, but what

[A]

does a 21 want with a 15 year old girl? That's disgusting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And if you don't think that's disgusting, you're wrong.

[B]

And the sex part of it aside, the abuse aside, it's also just control.

[A]

Yes, yes.

[B]

She's like looking up to the power imbalance.

[A]

It's like, which is wild because she has their first baby at 17. She had two kids like together. This is where Christopher, the writers like she never cooked, she never cleaned. I was like, shut up, Chris.

[B]

I know the woman has to be. But like they're staying in these shitty motels. Like they want us to see that like she grew up in this situation where she kind of like quote had everything and now she's sort of actively leaving that.

[A]

Well, and also like according to Christopher the writer, like the man in the 21 year old in this situation is the one that's like staying home taking care of the kids and she's coming home drunk and stabbing knives into the floor.

[C]

He was terrified. That's when he fled with the child.

[B]

John decided that it was not good for the children to be around her Joanne at all and took them off and he brought them up as a

[A]

single dad and he's so scared that he ran off with the kids to raise them as a single dad. I'm like, are we doing that thing where we are exalting the guy and like that was having sex with a

[B]

15 year old girl, 21 years old.

[A]

Yeah, I'm sure. I hope he was a great dad. This whole situation never should have happened.

[B]

Yeah, I'M not. I'm not getting, like, sweet love affair from this.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Fairground.

[A]

You know what this is? It's Shitterton.

[B]

Like, are you kidding me?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So we're back with John Rogers, who's the second stabbing victim from earlier.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, like, 20 minutes after this attack, Joanne and Gary and Mark, who's here with us, are trying to sell all the. All the stolen stuff, remember, from earlier?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So the cops track them down, they surround the car, and Joanne is there with Archie the dog, who is taken and fine.

[A]

It's just wild that, like, she's committed these two attacks. She's let the two guys in the car, like, go, and she's just sitting in the car like a sitting duck, essentially.

[B]

And she just, like, calmly gets out of the car and she puts her hands up and she's arrested. And she goes into the back of the van without incident.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I was like, oh, I know. She knew that was coming. That's what. That's. That's when I was like, oh, she was running out the clock.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's why she was like, I need another one. I need another one. She knew she was gonna get caught. And then when it happened, she was like, well, here we are.

[A]

Here we are. And it's like. I guess it's that thing where I'm like, you're not gonna have access to killing people as easily in prison. It doesn't seem. I don't know about that, I guess, but I'm like, I guess that's why I'm like, blaze of glory is what this was like. She's trying to get in the car, drink her half bottle of whiskey, go on this, like, killing spree.

[B]

Well, then we see footage of her at the station. She is so casual. She's leaning on the counter. She's, like, spelling her name and answering questions like it's nothing. She's flirting with everyone. Everyone here, cops included, are having a grand old time.

[A]

I was gonna say, like, the cops are flirting right back with her.

[B]

I'm sure this happens all the time.

[A]

Yeah, I'm sure.

[B]

This. This is like, book em, let's go. Like, they're just trying to keep the peace.

[A]

Like, keep her calm. I mean, like, they all know what she did. Like, the nation's been looking for her. I was a little put off by it. Like, the second time watching it, I was like, I don't know, maybe I'm wrong. But I was like, there's keeping the peace. And then there's also, like, leaning into it a little Bit.

[B]

I mean, because they ask her how much she's had to drink, and she's like, oh, like, half a bottle this morning. Super expensive stuff. It was like 80 bucks. And they're like, oh, my God. And then one of them, like, she's trying to flirt, and, like, they're talking about, like, her shirt and trying to get these compliments, and she's like, I'm doing a T shirt.

[C]

This amazing. Looks good.

[A]

Thanks for. So good.

[B]

Really sexy. Oh, my God. Like, the shirt makes me feel so sexy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm like, what the. But then someone's like, oh, my God, you're so tiny.

[A]

She says that to the other lady cop. And the lady cop is like, once again, I'm sure, just, like, trying to keep the peace. Like, what's the other option? Like, tell her to shut the fuck up and then, like, have a brawl or whatever, I guess. But it's just like, the whole scene of it was very. I was very effective.

[B]

Everyone's, like, objectifying each other.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

The way she's, like, leaning on the counter, like, it's Elaine at the Soup Nazi, where she, like, you have to, like, follow all the rules. And Elaine's, like, bump, like, bouncing all over the counter. And he's like, get out of my goddamn store. Yeah, that's her. Yeah. You're like, don't you. You're a murderer.

[A]

And she's fully acknowledging. She's like, I'm here for attempted murder and murder. Like, she's like. Knows what she's there for. She's basically bragging about it.

[B]

At one point, she starts singing. Singing in the Rain? Yeah, she's, like, singing and dancing around.

[A]

It's almost as if she's trying to show them how crazy she is. Like, some. One of our talking heads will say that, like, this is part of her manipulation. Yeah. It's to, like, run the room by being the sexy one, but also the one that's flirting, but then also being the craziest.

[B]

Well, it's. I mean, it's over now.

[A]

It's over now.

[B]

Like, if she thinks this is working.

[A]

Yeah. And they say that in the time

[C]

that she was on the run, they likened herself to Bonnie and Clyde. And clearly, I think one of the motivations for her was seeking that infamy as well as controlling other people and some people being put under her spell. She wanted to be known for murdering, for causing these horrific crimes.

[A]

It made me think she wants attention. She did this because she wanted to kill. She wanted attention. And then they made a documentary about it, and now we're covering it.

[B]

Yeah. And it's like, who do you think you are? We can see you and we can hear you, and.

[A]

But we are part of the problem, as we always say, because it's like, you know what I. Like, we're. We're here talking about her.

[B]

Yep. So remember, though, she was on the run for murder. Like, she had already killed before the stabbings that we learned about in the DOC so far.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that's when the call comes in that they. That two more bodies have been found and one of them is Kevin Lee. Like we said. Right at the top.

[A]

Yeah. And they're saying that, like, if these two bodies are connected and they're connected to the stabbings that she did, like, we're dealing with a serial killer.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Which, like, we have to also remember that for the UK is not as common as it is is for us. You know what I mean?

[B]

I guess that's true.

[A]

Yeah. Like, it's a much bigger deal over there, it feels. Because it's like it's less common.

[B]

I guess so.

[A]

You know, it's a real proud history of serial killers we have.

[B]

I'm so tired.

[A]

I know, I know, I know.

[B]

That's it.

[A]

But we gotta get to work.

[B]

I mean, I'm just. I can't believe it.

[A]

So we see the ditch where the bodies were found. One of the men is identified as a man named Lucas. Ugh. I knew this was gonna be hard.

[B]

Slaboszewski.

[A]

Oh, my God. Not for you. Lucas Slabajewski. He's a Polish national living in Petersboro.

[C]

And some days before it is believed that he was murdered, he met Jonah Dennehy in Peterborough. And it's believed that he struck up a relationship with her.

[A]

Like, he was new to the area. This girl took an interest in him.

[B]

I mean, he thinks he met, like, a nice girl and she's luring him over to the house.

[A]

Lucas, did the star tattoo give anything away? You know what I mean?

[B]

Mean, it's just poorly done.

[A]

It's. Honestly, give me. Have whatever tattoo you want.

[B]

Yeah. Wear.

[A]

She looks like a serial killer, you know? Well, you know what I mean, Right? Stressing the part.

[B]

I have bad news for you.

[A]

I know, I know. It's why we're here, you know?

[B]

So she kills this poor guy and they take Lucas and, like, her goon stretch, like, puts him in a bin outside.

[A]

They say the word goon, like, could not be more apt because there's no

[B]

way she's doing this by herself. She's like you do that, do this. Like, she's such an asshole. And she bragged about all of this and she loves that she's controlling the eight foot tall guy. Like, look what I can do. Look what I can do. She like, you know, like blinks her, you know, bats her eyes at him and like he's putting a dead body in a trash can. Like, can you fucking look at yourself? Both of you.

[A]

I know, it's just because like this pretty girl winked at you also. She showed the body to a 14 year old girl.

[B]

Yeah, she's bragging about it.

[A]

She literally wants to get caught.

[B]

Right. So we have another victim, John Chapman. He was actually living in the same house as the killer and he had been reported missing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So in other words, they were linking people left right here. She did all of this.

[A]

There's three people. There's Kevin, who she was renting an apartment from, Lucas, who she was like luring, letting him think that they were dating. And this guy John, who was like her roommate in a house. So there's three dead bodies in addition to the two men that she attacked in the middle of the day.

[B]

And then we meet Michelle, who's the neighbor, and she confirms that John Chapman lived in this house. And she's like taking us to the

[A]

house and she's not want to be back there. She's very sad because she says she

[B]

was like John was scared of her. Like he was a widow. He was drinking to cope with the grief and he was sweet. And Michelle's like, people were taking advantage of him left and right because he was really down on his luck and he was sad.

[A]

Yeah. And like, you know, we learn the way that she killed him.

[C]

One day, John was drunk, he'd fallen asleep on his bed and she stabbed him to death as he slept. John Chapman died as a consequence of stab wounds to the chest.

[A]

And she just like stabs him repeatedly in the chest. The cops find a bloody. When they like they search the house, they find a bloody mattress in the back. And you know, Mark, the hostage from the car, they were talking in the car about the murder. Joanna tells Mark the reason she did this was because she was taking a bath one day and he came in and was like creeping on her. And nobody believes that story.

[B]

No. Because based on how random and violent the other attacks were and all the things she said and all the things we saw, there are so many quotes from witnesses, like, there's no way. Yeah.

[A]

Detective Jeff was like, absolutely not. She killed him because she had a blood lust and he just happened to be there.

[B]

She said, again, the easy kill. He's passed out drunk.

[A]

Yep. Stabbed him five times in the chest, once in the neck. And like, this is where they're going to start to talk about the escalation. And like the escalation typically happens over time. For her. It happened very fast.

[B]

Yeah. It's also about control though, because let's not forget the eight foot goon who does every single thing she says and is like, like, who am I to stop her? Maybe the only one who possibly could literally pick her up by her shirt collar and be like, stop doing, stop doing this.

[A]

You could like flicker little one like says, stretch.

[B]

One of those things he cleans off

[A]

the top of the shelf at the very top of the ceiling and then he stops her from murdering people.

[B]

Right. But to be like there's, there was. I mean, when I say there's nothing

[A]

I could do and I'm like, Gary, I know. And this too is where the cops start to like, try to understand her motivation.

[B]

Carrie thinks strippers like him too.

[A]

I know.

[B]

Do you know what I mean, Gary?

[A]

But that's. I know. I mean, to be so vulnerable a man, that one girl that you think is pretty, like, winks at you once and then you're willing to be her getaway driver and like, assist her in all of the murders that she's doing.

[B]

What a pathetic loser.

[A]

Yes. We need to like ourselves better every time.

[B]

Jesus Christ.

[A]

I know.

[B]

Fuck you,

[A]

girl. Hers is back. Look them. If losing weight is one of your 20, 26 goals and you're ready to make progress you can count on, then weight loss by hers might be right for you.

[B]

And here's the thing about hers, it goes beyond medication. So it offers access to ongoing care dosage and medication adjustments, lifestyle and nutrition tips, and 24, 7 support with no hidden costs or membership fees.

[A]

And I want to tell you as somebody who's been on a weight loss journey for years, that doctor support, like knowing you can call and talk to somebody and ask questions, is a major, major thing you're going to love. I'm. Hers is supplying that. Yeah.

[B]

And with options Starting at just $69 a month with a 10 month plan when paid upfront, in full, hers provides access to options that fit your goals and your budget.

[A]

Right. And so here's how it works. Through hers, you're connected with a medical provider who determines if treatment is right for you. If prescribed, your treatment plan is personalized to support you in reaching your goals. Plus you can access a range of treatment Options like oral medication kits or GLP1 injectables.

[B]

Yeah. So hers has comprehensive personalized health care that you can count on, from weight loss support to growing thicker hair or easing anxiety to navigating menopause symptom. Even accessing convenient lab testing. Hers has you covered.

[A]

You looked right at me when you said growing thicker hair.

[B]

I did not.

[A]

I'm just.

[B]

I looked right into those eyes.

[A]

It's true. Fam feel like your best self again. Visit for hers.comtco to get a personalized affordable plan that gets you.

[B]

That's F O R h e r s.com TCO for hers.com TCO weight loss by hers is not available everywhere. Compounded drug products are not approved or evaluated for safety, effectiveness or quality by the fda. Prescription required. See website for full details, important safety information and restrictions. Actual price depends on product and plan purchased.

[A]

You did that whole last one by yourself.

[B]

I just was in a groove.

[A]

You nailed it.

[B]

Yeah, I did.

[A]

Nailed it.

[B]

I think I did.

[A]

And so the cops are trying to, like, understand the motivation, and they come back to this over and over and over again.

[C]

But if you look at the facts that were gathered during the course of our investigations and the things that Joanna said, for example, to witnesses. I want my phone. I want to kill. This victim selection and her demeanor as described by key witnesses, the motivation is clearly thrill seeking. And that desire and lust, I call it to kill.

[A]

There is no motivation.

[B]

She just wants to kill.

[A]

She just wants to kill. They said the word bloodlust in this? More than I heard it in the nine years we've been doing this.

[B]

Well, how many times have we heard over these eight years that, like, to stab someone?

[A]

Sorry. Eight, nine. I always. 12. I get lost.

[B]

But, like, to be stabbing someone, it's so personal. It's so vicious.

[A]

You have to, like. Like, I've. I've thought about this, about what it would actually feel like to be the person doing the stabbing. No, because we are not insane. You know what I mean? There's got to be something. They call it thrill seeking for her. Like, there's got to be something about the feeling of plunging a knife into somebody else's body that she gets enjoyment from.

[B]

And so many times, like, the profilers will say, well, if it's stabbing, oh, this is personal. But it wasn't personal, right? Yeah, she was right. Like, I need a distracted guy with a dog. Go, go, go find it. She didn't care who it was.

[A]

It was violent and painful for them. I think that's what it was for her. Horrible, horrible.

[B]

But here's the thing about Kevin Lee. So she knew Kevin Lee for a long time. They say they had a business relationship. So Kevin Lee was a landlord. And Kevin would use the killer and her goon as these enforcers if he needed rent or if he needed to collect a debt or if he wanted someone evicted. And he, he didn't want to go through the courts.

[A]

Yeah, like definitely not the best guy. Definitely not deserved to have been murdered.

[B]

No, it's a shitty thing to do to like use enforcers.

[A]

Yeah, well, and like it's like a mafia thing. It's like once you get mixed up in that world, then you're just in that world now Kevin. And I'm not like blaming the victim here but like it seems like Kevin was definitely doing some shady shit. And like, like also Joanna would be violent with these people. It wasn't like she would knock on the door and be like, if you don't, you know, like real nice kneecaps you have, there would be a real shame. And I'm sure actually beat people up.

[B]

And when she's saying that there's an 8 foot 77 guy behind her, honestly, like, well, I don't know. What if, what if they were forcing Kevin to use them as enforcer? I don't know what the situation was.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When someone.

[A]

Kevin to use them as enforcers, anything is possible.

[B]

I mean when someone shows up who is clearly out of her fucking mind.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Probably usually carrying a weapon and there's her enforcer behind her.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I think anyone would be like, okay,

[A]

okay, whatever she says because who's telling us the story? Yes, I got questions and it's all absolutely terrifying.

[B]

So now we're in court, which is great for the killer because she has an audience.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And everyone knows what she did and this is exactly what she wanted.

[A]

And also the prosecutor is saying that like at least if we go through a trial we will get answers to our basic questions. And so this is where they start talking about how she wants control, that like she's going to plead not guilty because she wants the show and she wants to be in control. And then we start to understand what a trial would actually mean for her.

[B]

And so like they are gathering all the evidence and they want to interview her, but she's not saying anything. No comment, no comment, no comment. And so like the eight foot goon says a little bit, but not too much.

[C]

Gary tried to minimize involvement so he didn't go. No comments. Admitted to driving the vehicle. The sequence of events he went through. But then the key moments. Well, didn't see anything. Didn't know what John, Joanna was doing. She got out of the car, didn't see anything. She got back in the car.

[A]

And the eight foot goon is just trying to like, distance himself from culpability, but not giving them anything because, like, there's nothing to tell, you know what I mean? Like, she just wanted to go kill people. And I drove her there and that.

[B]

It's like saying that would not be great for him. So he's like, I didn't, I was just driving.

[A]

I didn't know what she was doing.

[B]

Like, you didn't hear or see anything while you were driving.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Then you stopped the car. For what? Why did you stop the car? Right. Did she do what? She got out of the car, like, Gary, shut up.

[A]

The fact that they've got Mark the hostage witness is like, very convenient for the prosecution.

[B]

And why these two fudgeing, murderous losers decided to add a witness to this, I'll never know.

[A]

And I'm glad you say that because I'm like, I guess we're just going to believe that he was a hostage.

[B]

Someone asked him, I think the filmmaker asked him at the end, like, so you're sticking with your story that you couldn't do anything?

[A]

No, I could do anything. I could do anything. Could do anything. And I guess, like, you know, I guess maybe Joanna and the goon would have flipped on him if he wasn't.

[B]

Well, I think we have so much CCTV footage that. Yeah, see him like. But I don't know.

[A]

I definitely have got questions about this guy too, you know, like the innocent, innocent, innocent bystander polishing his halo in the backseat.

[B]

Yeah. And then it's like, oh, they just, they all of a sudden, like they're just kind of all three together.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Okay, so.

[A]

November 18, 2013, Joanna Dennehy appeared at the Old Bailey. I really wanted to do some research on this building. I did not have time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I'm like, I feel like it's been there since the, like, I feel like Shakespeare paid parking tickets.

[B]

It's a pretty big deal.

[A]

You know what I mean?

[B]

Pretty big deal.

[A]

Yeah. So she was on trial for three counts of murder, counts of attempted murder. And like they describe bringing her into

[B]

the courtroom, having the time of her

[A]

life, chatting with people, living it up. She's got not a fucking care in the world. She knows what's gonna happen and she doesn't give a shit.

[B]

And now everyone is waiting for a Not guilty plea. They're expecting this weeks long trial.

[C]

Joanna Dennehy stood up and said guilty, which took us all by surprise. That was Joanna's final act of control.

[A]

This was her regaining the narrative. Regaining control. She doesn't have to testify. She doesn't have. You know what I mean? Like, they'll never know her story, I think. Leaving the prosecution desperate to know why she did this. And she'll never talk. Yeah, her sentence is gonna be her sentence no matter what.

[B]

Right? But hey, dipshit, we know exactly why you did it.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

You're not that smart. You're not fucking brilliant. You're not some layered person.

[A]

Nope. And part of me was even thinking, like, jail is probably gonna be a great place for her. She's gonna be the. The king boss. Everyone's going to be afraid of her. I mean, my God, we learn she goes to prison. That like other notorious serial killer was so terrified of her she had to be moved.

[B]

She and her husband like, assaulted and murdered like 12 young women and girls. Like, that is. Rose is no fudgeing joke in the worst way ever. Like, she's also a murderous, horrible person.

[A]

That'd be like Ted Bundy being put in. In the same prison as like John Wayne Gacy and Gacy being terrified and having to be moved the next.

[B]

I hope they're all dead. How many of those people we just talked about are dead?

[A]

Gacy and Bundy are both dead.

[B]

All right.

[A]

I know. I'll take half small wins here any day.

[B]

Any day now.

[A]

Any day now.

[B]

So the goon pleads not guilty. Guess what, asshole? You were found guilty and got 19 to life. So shut up. I mean, and she's also tried to escape, by the way.

[A]

I love that she tried to escape and didn't pull it off.

[B]

No. So in conclusion, she's a nightmare and I'm done talking about her.

[A]

Yeah. Bye, Joanna.

[B]

Fuck you, girl.

[A]

Oh my God, girl. We did manhunt. Joanne. You're right. Joanne Dennehy is what the title is.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

It's not Joanna.

[B]

No. And when they say like, hey, you know, like checking in at the fucking prison today, like, forget your name. And she says Joanne. I know, but people say Joanna. It's very strange.

[A]

Who cares? She's the worst fam. Don't forget to join us on the Patreon. We've got over 500 full ad free bonus episodes covering everything going all the way back to like the Staircase and like making a murderer. Up to now where we're doing don't date Brandon and all the love fraud docs I'm kind of obsessed with.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

We've got an ad free tier. We've got an after party tier where sometimes we cover cases that don't have documentaries. We've got a tier where we cover, like, other fun things. And we send you calendars, we send you stuff in the mail. It's a lot of stuff. There's a link in the show notes to check it out.

[B]

We got a lot going on.

[A]

Yeah. What are we doing Next girl?

[B]

Andrea Yates, the cult behind the killer. Oh, this is three episodes. We're gonna do it in two. We're gonna do one of those two part drops. It's on hbo, Max. It's on Discovery. Do you wanna tell them about how we do the two parters?

[A]

Yeah. The way the two parters work is we will make. We drop episode one in our regular feed and episode two in our Patreon feed at the same time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So if you're on the Patreon, you can hear part two right away. If you wanna join Patreon, you'll get part two right away. And then the following week, part two will be our regular episode in the regular feed. So everybody gets to hear both parts.

[B]

Yeah. And you'll hear me say a lot.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In those next few episodes, if Rusty Yates has no haters, I'm dead.

[A]

Oh, my God. I don't know anything about this. I know it's going to be awful.

[B]

It's going to be awful. But it's. It's one of those. It's not what you think.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

Oh, I'm, like, obsessed with this.

[A]

Okay, okay, okay, okay.

[B]

You're going to. It's going to be all right.

[A]

Next one's going to be a good one, fam. Get ready for it.

[B]

It's one of those. It's one of those, like, hot coffee things where it's like, you thought the woman, like, was. You know, they were, like, jokes about it and crazy, but it's.

[A]

But then she ended up being vindicated. Okay, great. Well, stay tuned for the trailer for that famous. And stay safe out there. We love you.

[B]

Please. We love you.

[A]

All right, bye.

[B]

Bye. Andrea Yates. Andrea Yates. Andrea Yates confessing to police. She drowned her children one by one in the bathtub. I'd do anything to save my children,

[C]

and there's nothing I could do.

[A]

I was heartbroken.

[B]

Everyone was horrified. A mother killed. Killed her kids. How could she do this?

[A]

When I watch news coverage about Andrew Yates, it's like, this woman is evil. She's insane. They are missing a huge part of the story. Michael Wernicke. Michael Wernicke was our spiritual teacher, Andrea Yates. Religious beliefs were not mainstream.

[B]

They called it a cult. This is control. This is fear.

[A]

This is a ticking time bomb.