494: Secrets to Reveal (from "A Killer Among Friends")

Summary

True Crime Obsessed – Episode 494: "Secrets to Reveal" (A Killer Among Friends)

Release Date: April 16, 2026
Hosts: Julia Bethvali, Patrick Hines, plus witty and empathetic co-host
Podcast Theme: Recapping true crime documentaries with humor, heart, and unfiltered real talk.

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Episode Overview

In this lively and heartfelt episode, the hosts break down episode 5 ('Secrets to Reveal') of "A Killer Among Friends." The story centers on the mysterious disappearance and murder of Michelle, a beloved childhood friend whose last trip to Las Vegas with her bestie Vicki turned into a haunting true crime tragedy. The conversation draws out not just the facts of the case, but the complex, emotional realities of friendship, secrets, and how violence can lurk where it’s least expected. As always, the hosts weave humor and nostalgia through their thoughtful analysis—including reflections on 90s high school life, the nature of abusive relationships, and survivor’s guilt—while emphasizing the enduring impact of this devastating crime.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Setting the Stage: 90s Friendships and Las Vegas Plans

• [02:17] The hosts set the scene in West Covina, California, reminiscing about 90s friendships—hair, music, and high school memories.
• [04:32] Amanda (interviewed in the show) poignantly remarks on the 1990s:

  "Growing up in the 90s and early 2000s, we didn't have social media, so that was great. We actually went outside, went to the movies, and went to the mall.” — Amanda [04:34]

• [08:02] Transition to adulthood: After college, Vicki and Michelle plan a Vegas trip to celebrate finishing the GMATs, hoping to cheer Vicki up during a low period.

The Vegas Trip: Fun, Friendship, and Red Flags

• [09:12-13:20] Only Vicki and Michelle make the trip, with Amanda and Alexis staying home. The plan is simple: “go shopping, hang by the pool, blast Beyoncé and Mariah,” but ominous foreshadowing sets in as the timeline jumps forward.
• [14:13-16:05] The girls' first night in Vegas includes a casino encounter with “Chandler from Friends” (Matthew Perry), followed by a Cirque show with Michelle’s friend Emil.
• [17:39-20:19] Unexpectedly, Michelle’s ex-boyfriend Justin arrives at their suite—unannounced and unwelcome by Vicki. The hosts point out the escalating discomfort and Vicki’s uneasy instincts:

  “Her body, her instincts were like, make sure she's still breathing.” — Julia [19:49]

Aftermath, Disappearance, and Family Frantic

• [10:21 & 13:02] The timeline fast-forwards: 12 days post-trip, Michelle’s car is found running in a bad part of Vegas.
• [11:16-12:23] Family interviews unite around growing panic and confusion:

  "They told me they found her car with the engine running and the doors open and the radio on, but nobody inside the car." — Michelle's dad [11:01]

• [13:54-14:05] The girls' adult lives are diverging, but their bonds linger—reminded by Vicki’s and Michelle’s ritual "house calls" before trips.

Vicki’s Survivor’s Guilt, Secrets, and Mental State

• [24:44-26:38] Vicki’s emotional state spirals during the trip; she describes overwhelming dread and depression, leading her to leave early, much to Michelle’s disappointment.
• [26:53-27:34] Michelle calls Vicki days later, but Vicki, still hurt, ignores the call—a decision she deeply regrets:

  “She says, I wanted her to know that I wasn't happy with her.” — Co-host [27:11]

The Investigation: Piecing Together the Truth

• [29:17-30:33] In an exceptional move, Vicki tracks Michelle’s last phone call through the carrier, discovering it was made to Justin’s brother. The family and friends desperately try to locate Michelle.
• [36:46-37:24] Michelle’s body is discovered in the desert—set on fire and buried, found only by chance due to gunshot smoke.

Tension Among Friends & Hidden Abuse

• [38:22-40:42] Amanda and Alexis suspect Vicki knows more, as she was Michelle’s "secret diary." Vicki reveals, for the first time to authorities, early incidents of abuse by Justin, previously kept secret:

  “Michelle told me one day that her and Justin got into an altercation … he pushed her against the wall and put his hands on her neck.” — Patrick (relaying Vicki’s words) [40:11]

The Case Breaks and the Aftermath

• [43:01-44:08] Text records show Justin and Michelle argued the night of her disappearance. Justin’s phone pinged near the crime scene at the likely time of the murder.
• [44:08-45:10] The entire friend group and family fear for their own safety as Justin remains hidden, his family stonewalling the investigation.
• [48:31-49:03] The case advances: a friend of Justin’s brother calls the police, revealing Justin’s role in Michelle’s murder.
• [49:19-49:55] Four months later, Justin is found hiding in Mississippi with his mother; he’s arrested after a raid by law enforcement at 5am.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Vicki’s call with Justin from jail:

  “He’s calling her ... could you like maybe testify to that in court for me? Vicki is out of her mind being on the phone with the fucking piece of shit that murdered her best friend who's asking her for a favor.” — Co-host [50:14]

• Coping with the aftermath:

  “We still do. And it's like whoever needs her can take the urn. I'm still able to keep her close and hold on to that until I see her again.” — Michelle’s mom [45:23]

• Impact on Vicki:

  “I definitely just move differently now when I encounter a friend in an unhealthy situation. So she didn't die in vain. I no longer just, you know, stay quiet.” — Patrick (channeling Vicki) [53:08]

• On the injustice of Justin’s suicide in prison:

  “If he was going to kill himself eventually anyway, like, he should have just killed himself that night instead of Michelle.” — Co-host [52:41]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:17] Introduction of the four friends and setting the high school scene.
• [08:02] The plan for the celebratory Vegas trip.
• [13:20] Timeline shift: Michelle returns, is missing; car found in Vegas.
• [17:39] Justin’s unwelcome arrival; Vicki’s unease and instinct to check on Michelle.
• [25:06] Vicki’s breakdown and mounting dread.
• [26:53] Michelle tries to reach out after the trip; Vicki ignores the call.
• [29:17] Vicki tracing Michelle’s last phone call to Justin’s brother.
• [36:46] The family learns of Michelle’s murder.
• [40:11] First revelation of prior abuse by Justin.
• [43:01] Phone records and argument, tying Justin to the crime scene.
• [49:19] Justin’s arrest in Mississippi.
• [50:14] Justin’s manipulative jail call to Vicki; her refusal.
• [52:41] Justin’s suicide and friend’s righteous anger.
• [53:08] Lessons learned—Vicki's resolve to intervene in future unhealthy situations.

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Lessons, Reflections & Resources

• The hosts reiterate the importance of not staying silent about relationship red flags, while refusing to lay blame on survivors or those caught in abusive dynamics.
• They highlight the National Domestic Violence Hotline: [phone]-SAFE (7233) and thehotline.org—stressing the site’s emergency “quick exit” feature for those seeking help discreetly. [53:44]

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Final Thoughts & Tone

True Crime Obsessed navigates the balance between humor, nostalgia, and the harsh realities of domestic violence with empathy and candor. The hosts validate survivor's guilt and underscore the vital importance of supportive interventions, all while honoring Michelle’s memory. The episode is a moving mix of friendship tales, cautionary revelations, and a powerful call to vigilance and compassion.

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For anyone struggling in an unhealthy relationship or worried about a friend: know that support, understanding, and resources are available—and you're not alone.

Transcript

[Julia Bethvali]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julia Bethvali]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julia Bethvali]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Girl, you know I was raised by lesbians. And like a good.

[Julia Bethvali]

Who doesn't, Right?

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Right. Like a good, sensible 90s lesbian. I'm wearing a thick overshirt today.

[Julia Bethvali]

Wow.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

I like a nice, thick, sensible, warm overshirt.

[Julia Bethvali]

Love.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

I was raised right.

[Julia Bethvali]

Hell yeah.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Hi, Julia Bethvali.

[Julia Bethvali]

Hi, Patrick Hines.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Tell them what's going on.

[Julia Bethvali]

I gotta tell you something. So it's gonna. Everyone's gonna be like, why are you wearing that in April, Gu. So welcome to our bonus episodes. This year it is 2026. I'm speaking to you from the past.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah.

[Julia Bethvali]

We are recording this December of 2025. Goddammit. We're going to try to get ahead.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

It's not even Christmas yet.

[Julia Bethvali]

It's not even Christmas yet. It's like early December.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah.

[Julia Bethvali]

2025. This is our first bonus episode of the year. You're hearing this in April. So I Wonder A good 2026. I need it to be.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

I wonder what major world events have happened that we don't know about yet.

[Julia Bethvali]

Yeah. That we're going to be kicking ourselves for not knowing. Because we're going to be sad. I promise you, I will put.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Vegas isn't even there anymore. All right, girls, tell me we.

[Julia Bethvali]

So this is. We're gonna kick it off with a brand new series. It's called A Killer Among Friends. Jennifer Love Hewitt is one of the producers and our narrator.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Shut up. That's wild.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julia Bethvali]

So this is season one, episode five, Secrets to Reveal. For lifelong friends.

[Patrick Hines]

A girl's trip to Sin City is the perfect way to blow off steam. After all, what happens in Vegas is supposed to stay in Vegas.

[Julia Bethvali]

But when one girl doesn't make it,

[Patrick Hines]

her family's only chance at justice is for all of her secrets to be revealed.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

So we're in West Covina, California. Looks warm. It's cold in New York.

[Julia Bethvali]

It's cold in New York. Michelle is our victim. But we are at home with Alexis, who tells us about these, like, four best friends. And the story starts in 1995.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Oh, my God. So we're going. I must have been in high school. Well, they're younger than me, but we go back to high school in the 90s and we get all this footage and I'm like, the fucking hair, the lockers, the music. This was when I was in. It brought me right back.

[Julia Bethvali]

Well, it's 1995 and we're in fourth grade. Vicki tells us that she met Michelle in fourth grade because Michelle was going to kick her butt.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Now, that was the thing. That was how you said it back then. I'm going to kick your butt.

[Julia Bethvali]

Yeah.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Like, that was what the bullies said.

[Julia Bethvali]

Vicki told her sister. Vicky's sister threatened to kick Michelle's butt.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yes.

[Julia Bethvali]

The school found out, called them in

[Patrick Hines]

and said, okay, you guys need to either be friends or your sister's going to go to jail. And I was like, no, for sure.

[Julia Bethvali]

Like, we'll be friends.

[Patrick Hines]

It was like best friends. From the moment we became friends, you

[Julia Bethvali]

two fourth graders make up and be friends or Vicky's sister is gonna go to jail.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Now, if I'm Michelle, I'm like, fuck Vicki's sister. Bye.

[Julia Bethvali]

Vicki's like, fine, fine, fine, fine. We'll be friends.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yes.

[Julia Bethvali]

But I'm like, what kind of threat is this school?

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

I know.

[Julia Bethvali]

Hey, you two fourth graders, get your shit together or sisters going away for life.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

At first I didn't like it, but then I was like, wait, this is a good approach. I kind of like this.

[Julia Bethvali]

Well, it made them friends.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah. I'm gonna tell Daisy tonight. Eat your vegetables or Daddy Steve is going to prison.

[Julia Bethvali]

Oh, my.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Go, Daddy. And then we could hire an actor to come and, like, bang on the door. She would push it. She would test it.

[Julia Bethvali]

That is horrifying.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

As she. As he's being dragged down the hallway. I think it's hilarious. It's childhood trauma for Daisy forever.

[Julia Bethvali]

Oh, my God. Well, they're instantly best friends. And then now suddenly we have four besties. We have Vicki, Alexis, Amanda, and Michelle. So this is where they're, like, playing with makeup and music and boomboxes and CDs and MTV, back when MTV actually played video.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

So good. Can I just say that we meet Amanda here? Now Amanda is being interviewed in a bar.

[Julia Bethvali]

Yeah.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

There is a martini with olives next to amand Amanda on a table. And I was like, did Amanda order a drink before she sat down? And was she sipping it through? No, it's never touched. The level never changes. I was expecting.

[Julia Bethvali]

I want aesthetics.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

I wanted to cut back to Amanda, who at One point would be, like, has, like, the cocktail olives in her mouth.

[Julia Bethvali]

Yeah.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

We don't get it.

[Julia Bethvali]

We don't get it.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Doesn't happen.

[Julia Bethvali]

She does say something that I felt in my bones. She's talking about the 90s and the 2000s and the music, and she goes.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Growing up in the 90s and early

[Patrick Hines]

2000s, we didn't have social media, so that was great. We actually went outside, went to the

[Julia Bethvali]

movies and went to the mall. We had boyfriends, you know, throughout high school, but nobody could break our bond. We didn't have social media, so that was great. And that pause I felt in my bones.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Did you have social media when you were in high school?

[Julia Bethvali]

I am of the generation that had the best of both worlds. Okay, so we had, like, the Internet and stuff, but we, like, what. What did they say? Like, I. I grew up when the Internet was, like, in a room.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah, same.

[Julia Bethvali]

So we would, like, there was, like, a computer room or we had to, like, go outside.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

We had a computer in the living room that had the Internet, but it was AOL dial up. Yeah, I've told the story before. I remember the one morning I was sitting there, like, got up before everybody else, as I'm want to do, was desperately trying to download a picture of Marky Mark in his underpants, which so

[Julia Bethvali]

slowly, so readily available though everywhere.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

But it was just like, it was loading like that. And I. But, like, I didn't want my. Because I wasn't out yet, and I didn't want, like, my family to sit. I wasn't out. Can you imagine? Can you imagine a world in which I'm like, you guys, I'm totally attracted to women. I know.

[Julia Bethvali]

No, I can't. Can't.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

I know. Can't.

[Julia Bethvali]

No. But I grew up in the world, the time of, like, away messages and, like. Yeah.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Like, we didn't get Facebook until, I think, after I was out of college.

[Julia Bethvali]

Oh, wow.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah, because Facebook launched in, like, 2004, I think, and I graduated college in the year 2000 because I am not young.

[Julia Bethvali]

Well, look, she. That pause. I was like, amanda, girl. I know we probably have a little bit of an overlap. Same taste in music.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah.

[Julia Bethvali]

But then it's like, Michelle, our victim, was the strong one. She was the protector of the group.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

She was the Dorothy. Yeah, keep going.

[Julia Bethvali]

Vicky. Adventurous yet reserved.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Blanche.

[Julia Bethvali]

Yep. Alexis. Smart but tough.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Sophia.

[Julia Bethvali]

Amanda. Funny and sweet.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

The rose.

[Julia Bethvali]

I said, get these women a TV show or at least like, some pop star tour.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

I'm like, the. The way that, like, the Golden Girls Nailed the archetypes before we even knew what they were like. The foursome that had all of those different. I was like, as she was saying

[Julia Bethvali]

and I'm like, you're describing 1, 2, 3, check.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Funny, you know, Come on.

[Julia Bethvali]

And like, everything was great. They complimented each other so well.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

I love though that they couldn't be like. And what's her name was the slutty one. You know what I mean? I wish they could have.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Because, you know, one of them had

[Julia Bethvali]

to be we sluts. Let's rock.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

I love sluts.

[Julia Bethvali]

To quote Coop from what had American Summer, I love sluts. Let's rock.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

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[Julia Bethvali]

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[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

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[Julia Bethvali]

Yeah. Your liver needs to do its job. It's your body's filter.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Exactly. It processes everything you consume and performs 500 plus daily functions. That's about 499 more than me.

[Julia Bethvali]

I mean, we're talking energy production, digestion, vitamin storage, like everything.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

So when you drink dose fam, it's going to reduce sluggishness. It's going to get rid of that midday crash which I have to take a nap for every day. Oh, my God. It's going to support your metabolism and even aid your daily digestion.

[Julia Bethvali]

Yeah. We got to like support the liver a little bit.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah.

[Julia Bethvali]

I think we've all been ignoring our livers.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

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[Julia Bethvali]

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[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

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[Julia Bethvali]

That's a great deal. I'm just saying it's a great deal.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

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[Julia Bethvali]

Oh. So fall 2010, they're done with college. Vicki and Michelle are going to take the gmats to get into grad school. Also, I just noticed a typo. It said rad school.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Oh, Said nobody ever went to grad school.

[Julia Bethvali]

I don't think he's like. Because Vicki was like super bummed. After taking the gmat, she said she had this like, really intense feeling of dread.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah. She was just really like, this is kind of important. Like, she was at a low point in her life. Like, she finished college, she's going to grad school, she's still got all of her girlfriends, but, like, she's just not happy. She's going through it and she's feeling lost. And so Michelle, BFF Michelle is like, fuck it.

[Patrick Hines]

So Michelle was like, let's go celebrate. We just took a test. Like, let's go have fun. Her idea was to go, like, to Vegas to try to help me feel better.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

We live, like a three hour drive from Vegas. We are driving to Vegas for the weekend. We are getting your groove back.

[Julia Bethvali]

Yeah. Because they, they were both working hard on the test. They both, they just went through it together. So Michelle's like, let's just go have fun for a weekend. We haven't had a fun weekend in so long. And you're like, kind of down in the dumps. Like, let's just go party.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

I love that. They, like, drive around to say bye to their girlfriends before they go away for the weekend.

[Julia Bethvali]

Vicki and Michelle go to Vegas, but Amanda and Alexis don't go with them.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

No. Now Amanda says something later. Like, they, Amanda and Michelle made a trip to Vegas just a couple of weeks before this.

[Julia Bethvali]

Yeah. Michelle something.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

They do.

[Julia Bethvali]

Yeah. Yeah. So the plan is. There was no plan. The plan was to have fun, go shopping, hang at the pool, blow off steam, blast Beyonce Mariah. On the drive there, I was going

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

to say on the drive, they were talking about how it had just rained in the desert and they. You did a drive like that?

[Julia Bethvali]

I got to tell you, driving to the desert is one of the coolest things.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

I got it. I've never done it, but I got to do it.

[Julia Bethvali]

We drove from L. A to Vegas in August. So my mike has all of the tips of, like, how to not overheat. Like, you got to bring, like, water with you just in case. You never, you really never know a

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

douchebag from that episode from nine months ago that we just recorded five minutes ago.

[Julia Bethvali]

But no, it's very, very cool. And I've always wanted to do that. And so. But you can see the weather come in and, like, p. Like the storm and the rain, like, pass through. So, like, you see, like, the sky is like, super clear and then you see the storm coming in, like, all gray, dark clouds. And then it like, comes in our experience, like, it came over us. We were in the pouring rain. And then, like, it just went the other way.

[Patrick Hines]

It was the.

[Julia Bethvali]

It was so cool.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

That is one. Like, that's exactly the experience that.

[Julia Bethvali]

It was beautiful. Like, it was really, like. Like, oh, my God.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Nature. Yeah.

[Julia Bethvali]

Like, oh, my God, it's so beautiful. So I highly recommend doing it if you can. But then we get the date that it's November 7th, and it's 12 days later. And I'm like, oh, no. No one spends 12 days in Vegas. Like, you either live and work there, or something bad happened in this context.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

And it's also like, wait, we didn't even get anything about the trip. All we're getting is the after effects.

[Julia Bethvali]

Yeah, we're gonna go back because, like,

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

on this date, November 7th, 12 days after the trip, Michelle's dad John, is here, and he says the doorbell rang. It was the West Covina Police. They say the worst thing they could say to a parent. Don't be alarmed, but do you know where your kid is?

[Julia Bethvali]

Too late for that, you idiot.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

I was like, what are you talking about?

[Julia Bethvali]

Like, no reason for asking.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah. But just, you know, we haven't seen her.

[Julia Bethvali]

Kidding.

[Guest or Interviewee (family member or expert)]

Oh, and by the way, was she in Las Vegas? I said, yeah, she was in Las Vegas. They told me they found her car with the engine running and the doors open and the radio on, but nobody inside the car.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

We found her car in Vegas. It was running, the doors were open, the radio was on, and nobody was inside.

[Julia Bethvali]

How do you. How careless can you be to knock on a door with the news that you know you have and say to a father, like, it's so disingenuous.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

I know.

[Julia Bethvali]

Don't be alarmed.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

I know, I know.

[Julia Bethvali]

But how is he supposed to act?

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

I know. It's like saying, like, I'm not trying to be rude.

[Julia Bethvali]

Right. But so, like, okay, whoa, wait. My daughter's missing for 12 days, seemingly. Now her car's in a. In a not great part of town, we're told with the engine running, the doors open, the radio on, like, oh, no. But I'm cool as a cucumber. Well.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

And also, he starts calling her right away. She's not answering. And, like, the dad is like, obviously these things are like the kid. I just cannot imagine, as a parent, how you get through this.

[Julia Bethvali]

No, no. So we meet Kevin, Michelle's brother, and Esther, her mom. And Esther, her mom says we talked all the time, but they actually didn't talk that much that week. And her mom even texted her, like, hey, like, what's up? Can you just, like, check in and let me know how you're doing. Cause I haven't heard from you. Like, not like, Mike, I'm not being a helicopter. I'm just, you know, check in.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

And the mom and the dad are divorced, so they don't live together. And the dad was the one who had to call the mom to be like, they found her car, but they don't know where she is.

[Julia Bethvali]

And my question is, where the hell is Vicky? And Michelle's family has the same exact question that.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

And as do I. And so does Jennifer Love Hewitt, and

[Julia Bethvali]

so does Michelle's brother Kevin. Because Michelle's brother, when Kevin came to

[Patrick Hines]

my house, he just had a look of concern on his face. He also looked mad. You know, where's my sister? And I was like, what do you mean? I don't know. Like, is she not home? He's like, weren't you with her? And I was like, we went. But I was like, then she stayed.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Vicki's answer is like, we were in Vegas for a couple of days and like, kind of I'm on Vicki's side. Like, it was time to go home and Michelle didn't want to leave, so Michelle stayed.

[Julia Bethvali]

And she's like, wait, she's not home yet? Yeah, because when.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Which is also weird because you're like, aren't you in constant contact?

[Julia Bethvali]

We'll get into, find out why they aren't.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

But yeah.

[Julia Bethvali]

So it turns out that they went to Vegas together. Vicki left on time, if not a day or two early, and Michelle stayed behind. And I'm like, why did Vicki leave? Like, how did this happen?

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Right?

[Julia Bethvali]

So now we meet, like, present day Amanda and Alexis and they meet up and it feels like it's been a while, right?

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

They're like, at the old high school and like, they're reminiscing about the friendship and how great that, like, the group of friends was. But yeah, it definitely feels like they haven't spoken in a while because they're

[Julia Bethvali]

like, you know, high school was great, but then the four friends started to grow apart. And I'm like, well, Michelle and Vicky went to Alexis's house to say goodbye to everyone before Vegas. So still pretty close. Yeah. I don't think I've ever made a house call to be like, I'm going on vacation, see you later.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Right, Exactly.

[Julia Bethvali]

No, even Ashley would be like, are you okay?

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Right?

[Julia Bethvali]

And it's like, whatever.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

You all, like, you had your lives, you had a couple of them, had kids.

[Julia Bethvali]

Like, you had jobs, different colleges, you're

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

going to grad school. Like, it happens.

[Julia Bethvali]

But they were still close. Like, Amanda says that she had a daughter when she was 22 years old. And the three friends would, like, come and help her out. Like, so they were close. Just, you know, whatever.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Right.

[Julia Bethvali]

So Vicky tells us what happened. And they didn't really have a plan, remember? Like, they were just gonna, like, listen to Beyonce and have fun.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Right. So it's October 26, 2010. It's the night they get to Vegas.

[Patrick Hines]

We went to gamble a little bit. I saw Chandler from Friends. And I was like, oh, my gosh. I'm gonna go up to him and, like, say hello. And then she's like, no, don't. Because it looks like he's losing, like, a lot of money.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

They see Matthew Perry in the casino,

[Julia Bethvali]

as Vicki calls him Chandler from Friends, which is also accurate.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah. She wants to run up to him and say hi, but Michelle's like, don't do it. He looks like he's losing a lot of money too. Which I said, he's got that friend's money. Matthew Perry can lighten up.

[Julia Bethvali]

I know, but people get super stressed.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

I get. This is why I don't get Vegas. Like, I just really don't understand. And I'm afraid to understand because if I ever did get into gambling, I feel like I would get really into gambling.

[Julia Bethvali]

Yeah. It's my whole thing about Vegas is it can be super, super fun if you do it right. If you go with, like, I understand not having a plan. Like, what time should we be at the pool? Like, who gives a shit about that? Like, do whatever you want. But going with a plan of, like, I'm only gonna spend $200 and that's it. Like, set a limit for yourself. Have kind of. But once you start, you know, the horror stories of, like.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

And then you wake up, signs away

[Julia Bethvali]

the kids college fund or whatever.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Well, but the thing is. Oh. Oh. We learned. So that was their first night. Then we learned the next night, they meet up with a friend of Michelle's. His name is Emil. They go to see a Cirque show. My note here is, J would not have gone to that.

[Julia Bethvali]

I would have been a good sport. It's just. It would not have been my favorite thing.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

It's only an hour.

[Julia Bethvali]

Is it?

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

I do well, that is.

[Julia Bethvali]

But also physically, because, again, it's a

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

feat all that time, like, but, like,

[Julia Bethvali]

I could never do it. I appreciate the athleticism. It's just not my thing.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

You would have gone to the Sexy Strip Show 1.

[Julia Bethvali]

I'd be like, can we go to the burlesque show, please. Or the drag show or something.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

I would be so torn if I was on that trip with you. I don't know which one I would do.

[Julia Bethvali]

I don't need anyone to go to the burlesque show with me. I'll meet up.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

I'm talking about me.

[Julia Bethvali]

Yeah, I'll meet up after. I know, but what about the Flamingo?

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.

[Patrick Hines]

But this Emil guy, Michelle's friend Aneel, didn't live in Vegas, but he would always come down for business. And so whenever he was in town, he would reach out. I'm sure he had a crush on Michelle. It was not reciprocated. But she cared about him like a friend.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

They're friends and, like, you know, they, like. Michelle wanted to have him in his inner life, but, like, didn't have the butterflies.

[Julia Bethvali]

Yeah. So it's 11 o'. Clock. They're back in their, like, huge hotel suite with multiple bedrooms.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

To which I say, this is the Vegas trip. I could do.

[Julia Bethvali]

That's how you do it.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Go to a Cirque show, meet Julian at the Flamingo for a cocktail, back in your room by 11. This I'm down for.

[Julia Bethvali]

And by Cirque, you mean burlesque and. Or drag.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Exactly. Yeah. Well, but now there's a drag option, right? That's what we're doing.

[Julia Bethvali]

It's so good.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

We're going to the Flamingo. What about a drag Cirque show? I can't believe they haven't done that yet. No, you. No. You're still out.

[Julia Bethvali]

I'm not into the Cirque thing.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Maybe you've seen the wrong Cirque.

[Julia Bethvali]

I'm not.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Have you ever seen a Cirque?

[Julia Bethvali]

Not like sitting in a seat.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Oh, it's pretty good. It's pretty good. I know. I'm not gonna convince you.

[Julia Bethvali]

I know. Like, on paper, it's amazing.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah, yeah. They, like. They jump onto that teeter totter. The guy goes like 19 stories in the air, lands on that girl's head. It's pretty. It's something to behold. But not for you. Not for you. You don't have more for me. More for me.

[Julia Bethvali]

You know, it's like. What? Like. Like, you know when people like cilantro tastes like soap to people.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Oh, I'm that guy. I am that guy.

[Julia Bethvali]

Yeah, But I agree. I'm not going to take cilantro away from you.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Right.

[Julia Bethvali]

Or I will take the cilantro away from you, but you won't take the cilantro away from me.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Correct. You have all the cilantro.

[Julia Bethvali]

It's 11 o'.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Clock.

[Julia Bethvali]

They're in their huge. There's like a living room and bedrooms.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Two bedrooms.

[Julia Bethvali]

Vicki's in her room in the suite and she hears something and suddenly.

[Patrick Hines]

And I came out of my room and I saw Michelle's ex boyfriend Justin. Like, why? Why is he here? Like, is this why we came? It made me sad.

[Julia Bethvali]

Michelle didn't tell Vicky anything about inviting her ex boyfriend to their hotel room. And I'm sorry, but that's not cool.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

It's not cool. Also, Michelle is nowhere to be seen. Like, we'll find out later. She's sleeping in her bedroom, but, like, the ex boyfriend Justin's just chilling in the living room.

[Julia Bethvali]

And Vicki's like, what? Like, they're there because Vicky's bummed out. And then she's like, wait a second.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Now she feels duped. Like, she feels like Michelle planned this trip so she could go see her ex boyfriend. And she's like, who, by the way, nobody really likes.

[Julia Bethvali]

Everybody hates him.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah.

[Julia Bethvali]

At best, he's like, weird and annoying. At best.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yes.

[Julia Bethvali]

But Vicky's like, man, I was already bummed. And, like, we were going to Vegas to just hang out and have fun, and now, like, this guy's here and like, did my friend really not want to cheer me up? Did she just want to see this guy?

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

And, like, is he going to be with us for the rest of the time that we're here? Like, like he's going to be the third wheel on our Fun Girls trip.

[Julia Bethvali]

And so weirdly, Michelle is asleep in her room and her ex is just like, they're making all this noise waking up Vicky.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah. And Vicki's talking about, like, they, like, they started talking.

[Julia Bethvali]

She's just trying to.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

He's asking her about, like, how, you know, Michelle says you're really sad and that he's trying to, like, preach to her about life or whatever.

[Julia Bethvali]

He's basically like, well, have you tried yoga? He's like, mansplaining her own sadness to her.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Oh, my God, yes.

[Julia Bethvali]

Yes, man. Like, talking at her, like, go away.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Then major red flag, because Justin goes to the vending machine and the second

[Patrick Hines]

he closes the door, they rent her room. Not to go check if she's okay or go check if she's still asleep, but, like, go check if she's alive. So when I lean over her to

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

make sure she's breathing, to make sure she was alive, and Vicki's like, I

[Julia Bethvali]

want to slow down on that for you. Listening at home look up from your phone. Yeah, stop. The two screen thing, right? She's like, this is a big distinction. She goes. And she ends up gaslighting herself later being like, why did I do that?

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah.

[Julia Bethvali]

But her body, her instincts were like, make sure she's still breathing.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Like, that's how. And she says, like, that was a major revelation. She says, you know, I was like, oh, my God, you're going crazy. But like, she had the instinct this creepy guy that we don't really like is here. They've had this on again, off again relationship for years and years. I need to go make sure my friend is alive.

[Julia Bethvali]

And also because Vicky is just feeling so shitty in general. And then, like, this guy's making it worse. And then she feels crazy for wondering if her friend's alive instead of waking Michelle up.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yes.

[Julia Bethvali]

She tiptoes out of the room and I'm like, wake her up and ask her why this creep is just in your hotel room and you didn't know about it. That's scary.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah. And then she's like, vindicated because Justin the weirdo comes back and, like, sits down, is like, so do you think Michelle's a good person?

[Julia Bethvali]

I'm like, did he have a key or was he let in by Vicky? Like, how did he get in?

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

When you do that thing where you put the latch in the door so, like, it just stays open.

[Julia Bethvali]

God. And now, yeah, he's. Now the creep is, like, interrogating Vicky. And Vicki's like, yes, obviously. Can you go home now? Like, yes, I think my friend is a good person.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah.

[Julia Bethvali]

Like, why are you in my suite?

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

I know. And then Michelle finally wakes up. Like, I mean, like, she was sleeping. He was hanging out in the living. I don't get it.

[Julia Bethvali]

He's making enough noise to wake up Vicky. And Michelle didn't at least send a text being like, hey, you're not sorry. I don't know how they got separated too, because how Vicky know. You know what I mean?

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Right?

[Julia Bethvali]

Or did they. Or they got separated somehow. I don't know. But Michelle finally wakes up and she's like, hey, creep, can you stop bothering Vicki?

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah.

[Julia Bethvali]

And he's like, okay, okay, fine. And then he just leaves.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

He leaves.

[Julia Bethvali]

And now Vicki doesn't tell anybody. And we're gonna say one thing and we're gonna get to it later. But just remember what she says now.

[Patrick Hines]

She says, I didn't call anyone or text anyone. I was pretty private with her and her and Justin's stuff.

[Guest or Interviewee (family member or expert)]

Stuff.

[Julia Bethvali]

She was, quote, pretty private about stuff. Involving Michelle and this guy Justin.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah. We get the sense that like Vicky and Michelle, like they're part of this foursome but they're kind of the closest.

[Julia Bethvali]

Yeah, of course. Like that's sort of what happens.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah, yeah.

[Julia Bethvali]

But Vicky didn't even ask Michelle about it the next day. She didn't even want to deal with it.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Like she doesn't want to talk about it. She's like I don't want your weird ex boyfriend to be here. Like I wanted my girls trip in Vegas. Like can we just go to the burlesque show?

[Julia Bethvali]

Like she's already miserable and now this. And like she kind of like she's here in Vegas. Can we just have the fun weekend instead of having like a fight about this guy?

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah.

[Julia Bethvali]

Ah

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

girl. Miracle Made is back. Look, the weather is a changing and it like there's no time to sleep on not sleeping at the perfect temperature. You know what I mean?

[Julia Bethvali]

Tis the season to never know what temperature you're going to be sleeping at.100%. I mean that would be the case if you didn't have Miracle made sheets, but I do, so I'm not worried.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

And the reason it's working for you is cuz Miracle made sheets are crafted with NASA inspired silver infused fabric that helps regulate your body's temperature. So whether you're a hot sleeper, a cold sleeper, it doesn't matter. These sheets help keep you in the comfort zone all night long which also keeps you asleep.

[Julia Bethvali]

Yeah, they also stay clean longer.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yes.

[Julia Bethvali]

Because they have this antibacterial silver technology. So Miracle made sheets stay cleaner and fresher up to three times longer than those regular old sheets.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

And honestly, they are so luxurious. I love them. Slipping into them at night is my favorite thing. They feel just as good, if not better than sheets you'd find at a five star hotel. But without that steep price tag.

[Julia Bethvali]

I could not agree more. I love these sheets.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

So upgrade your sleep or give the gift of better rest.

[Julia Bethvali]

Go to try Miracle.com/TCO to try Miracle

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

made sheets today you'll save over 40% and when you use promo code TCO you'll get an extra 20% off plus a free three piece towel set.

[Julia Bethvali]

They make an amazing gift and with a 30 day money back guarantee, there's no risk.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

That's try Miracle.com TCO code TCO at checkout.

[Julia Bethvali]

Thanks to Miracle Made for sponsoring this episode.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Honestly, what an easy fabulous gift idea.

[Julia Bethvali]

Honestly.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

So now we jump back to five years earlier and we learn that Michelle and Justin met at Cal State Fullerton and like, she was really excited to meet him. She's telling all of her friends about him. He plays on the basketball team. Vic. Nikki says Michelle always dated the tallest guy. She's got to think for tall guys.

[Julia Bethvali]

And he was super tall.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah. She probably. When she saw how tall Justin was, she just instantly fell in love.

[Julia Bethvali]

Right. And so they start living together right away in Vegas.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah.

[Julia Bethvali]

But their relationship was, like, super off and on and always getting back together. And then when finally Michelle moves back to California, everyone was like, oh, my God, is it over? It feels over. They break up. If this feels. This feels good.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah.

[Julia Bethvali]

You know, you've been in that friendship where it's like, is it over?

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Oh. Which is why five years later, you know, Vicky is so annoyed that he's back again.

[Julia Bethvali]

Because after Michelle moves back to California and everyone's like, fingers crossed. I think it's over. The friends don't hear about him after this.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Right.

[Julia Bethvali]

And they also just went to Vegas before the trip we're currently talking about.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yes.

[Julia Bethvali]

And the ex wasn't brought up at all.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Exactly.

[Julia Bethvali]

And they didn't meet up with him. They thought it was fully over, which is why it's so much more shocking and also fucking annoying and weird that he's here now.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yes.

[Julia Bethvali]

After five years of nothing. And we were just in Vegas two months ago and nothing happened where he lives.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah.

[Julia Bethvali]

Now this. Yeah. So. October 28, 2010, day three in Vegas. The ex is finally gone after being very weird and annoying. Vicki and Michelle are just moving on. They're not talking about it. Vicki's like, can I please have the fun weekend I was promised? Thanks.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

But then doesn't. Because they go to the mall and

[Patrick Hines]

she's like, but I just couldn't stop crying. The only word I can think of is dread. And as the weekend went by, it just got stronger and stronger to the point where I was getting scared myself of. I didn't understand why I was even experiencing this.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Walking around the mall, just sobbing.

[Julia Bethvali]

I've been there. Like, it's just that feeling of, like, why do I feel this way? And then the pressure of trying to figure it out makes it worse.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

And then you're never had that.

[Julia Bethvali]

Oh, my God.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

I know.

[Julia Bethvali]

Sucks.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

I mean, I've. I've been with people who. Who've gone through that.

[Julia Bethvali]

It's awful. And you just feel, like, betrayed by the world and by herself. And now that, like, she's sad about everything and she can't place it. And now she's, like, definitely sad about Michelle because a Friend with this guy or what did her friend lie to her about like her motives for coming to Vegas? Yeah, it's just, it's a mess.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

And like she's trying to push through it. She's like, let's just go to dinner and a show. But she couldn't stop crying. And she says now, the only way I can describe it now looking back on it is a feeling of dread. And she says as the weekend got like, wore on, that feeling got stronger and stronger.

[Julia Bethvali]

Worse than when she was home.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Right. And, and I think this is probably why she left early, of course, you know, because she's saying she's like, I was getting scared and like she stops just short of saying she was maybe thinking she was going to hurt herself.

[Julia Bethvali]

It was so bad. And I think what, what Vicky saying is that it was almost becoming out of her control.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yes.

[Julia Bethvali]

And that was scary to her. So she's trying to remove the thing that made her even worse. She was sad at home, but she's sad or here. Let's go back home.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yes.

[Julia Bethvali]

So it's a bad, bad, bad situation. And Vicky leaves and she wants Michelle to come with her.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah.

[Julia Bethvali]

And Michelle chooses to stay.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

And like Vick, you know, she makes no bones about it. Like she was not happy about this. Yeah, she was, she was disappointed with Michelle, a for kind of being a bad friend in this moment, but also for getting back with this guy that she knows it doesn't work with.

[Julia Bethvali]

And not being fully honest with Vicki, or at least Vicki felt like there were ulterior motives for wanting to go to Vegas other than like cheering up her best friend.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yes. And so November 6th, which is a couple days after Vicky gets back, she hasn't heard from Michelle in a couple of days. And Michelle calls her.

[Patrick Hines]

I saw her call come through and I was like, now she calls me. I'm like, it's 11pm like what the heck? She's gonna have to wait. Like I'm gonna have to, I'll call her back. And I regret not ever answering her phone call. I wish I would have.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

And Vicki does that thing. We've all done it. When you're mad at a friend and you want them to know. Cuz she says, I wanted her to know that I wasn't happy with her.

[Julia Bethvali]

Well, it's been a week and Vicki left in shambles. Like she was miserable.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

She was like sobbing all day long,

[Julia Bethvali]

which is like not safe to be driving three hours when you're in that

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

kind of state, by the way, that they drove.

[Guest or Interviewee (family member or expert)]

Right.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah.

[Julia Bethvali]

That's not good. So Vi, she doesn't take the call. She goes, it's 11 o', clock, it's been a week. She goes, she can wait.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

I'll have to wait.

[Julia Bethvali]

Vicki, of course today fully regrets not answering that phone call, but I totally understand where she's coming from.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

It's funny, I was thinking about this. I watched this last night and then I took my notes on it this morning. And in between, when I woke up this morning, my, my waking thought was about Vicki and her survivors guilt here.

[Julia Bethvali]

Yeah.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

She's got so much survivor's guilt that she should not have.

[Julia Bethvali]

Right. Because also this conversation has to be kind of a big one. I think it's not going to happen. 11 o', clock, like this, this has to be a conversation. And maybe, and like if it's 11

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

o', clock, is he gonna be there? You know what I mean?

[Julia Bethvali]

Is this the right time to have the conversation that Vicky, I think maybe feels that they need to have? And on top of that she's fucking pissed.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yes.

[Julia Bethvali]

Like there's also that maybe it's not that deep. She's just angry. I don't blame her. And so Vicki, please, like don't blame yourself. Let me just give you a quick timeline refresher.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah.

[Julia Bethvali]

October 28th, Vicki leaves Vegas. Michelle stays by November 6th, Michelle calls Vegas Vicki. Vicki says, no, I'm not answering.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yes.

[Julia Bethvali]

November 7th, Michelle's car is found. So this is not good.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

No. And so the next day, the 8th, Vicki calls Amanda to see when. When was the last time Amanda heard from Michelle.

[Julia Bethvali]

Right.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

And Amanda says kind of recently, like through texts, are making plans to hang out when she gets back. But this is when Vicki tells Amanda, no, no, no, girl. They found her car in Vegas. The doors open, radio on, car running. Michelle wasn't there, but Amanda says that

[Julia Bethvali]

she heard from Michelle the same day Michelle called Vicki. They were texting, they were making plans to hang out. Like Michelle was kind of on her way home.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yes.

[Julia Bethvali]

So everyone's panicking now. The police have contacted Michelle's family, everyone is calling everyone else. Everyone's calling Michelle, everyone's calling the Justin. Yeah, it's, it's major.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

No one's answering. All the calls are going to voicemail. Everyone's sobbing.

[Julia Bethvali]

Vicki gets shit done. Vicki calls, Vicki herself calls Michelle's cell phone provider.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

This is incredible.

[Patrick Hines]

I remember calling her cell phone carrier and begging them to tell me who was the last person that she called. I was like, please. I was like, it's my best friend.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

She's Missing.

[Patrick Hines]

I was like, please, just tell me. And the guy, like, he felt so sorry, and he ends up giving me the number. Ends up being Justin's brother.

[Julia Bethvali]

She is begging and pleading with the guy to tell her. The last person Michelle called on her phone, you can't just do that. You need a warrant for that. Like, you can't do it.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

In nine years, we've never seen this, and we've never seen it work. It works. And by the way, I'm the guy who did this. Give that guy a fucking medal.

[Julia Bethvali]

He felt so bad for what was going on, and Vicki must have been beside herself. And he tells her he does it.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah.

[Julia Bethvali]

And he probably could never. I mean, he probably doesn't even work for the company anymore. He does, but he probably could never. We're getting huge outed. But, like, it was so bad and so scary that he was like, okay, I'll tell you.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

But the last call Michelle made was to Justin's brother. So Vicki is calling Justin's brother, and he answers, and. And she says to him, michelle is missing. Where is Justin and the brother? At least he says he has no idea.

[Julia Bethvali]

And I'm like, okay, well, then why is your number the last one she called?

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Well, and I guess we should be clear to say that that's the last number called from her phone.

[Julia Bethvali]

That's what I was just going to say.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah, we don't. Right. We don't know who made that call.

[Julia Bethvali]

But even still, you totally have information.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Of course. And we're going to find out later. This guy is completely uncooperative. Wants nothing to do with helping. Like, they're. They're all fudgeing in on it. I would never know. I would turn in my mother, I would turn in my husband. I would turn in my daughter. Like, if somebody's dead, we need answers for these people.

[Julia Bethvali]

I mean, my God, the number of

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

times we see, like, family covering for the fucking shithead murderer in family. I would never. I would Never, ever, ever.

[Julia Bethvali]

November 8, 2010. Two days since anyone has heard from Michelle. Everyone's calling everyone.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah.

[Julia Bethvali]

And now this is absolutely horrifying.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

And the way the mom, Esther, says this is, like, heartbreaking.

[Julia Bethvali]

We were calling her friends, trying to

[Patrick Hines]

get a hold of her, then trying

[Julia Bethvali]

to get it out there that Michelle was missing. That if anybody have seen her, heard from her, to please let us know,

[Patrick Hines]

to get in contact with us. In the meantime, John had mentioned that I should contact her dentist to see if I can get her dental records.

[Julia Bethvali]

She is calling Michelle's dentist to get her dental records.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Like at her ex husband's suggestion. She does that. Like, which is like, I would not

[Julia Bethvali]

to be able to identify their daughter.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah. I'm like, you know what? I hear you. I'm a wait till we need that. You know what I mean? I'm not doing that today.

[Julia Bethvali]

It's like it must be some kind of fight or flight preemptive strike kind of thing.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

And like, she's not. This didn't happen on their home turf. Like, they're going to have to go to Vegas. So maybe they need it to bring.

[Julia Bethvali]

It's still absolutely horrifying.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Horrifying.

[Julia Bethvali]

And so they do that and everyone heads to Vegas. Michelle's parents, her brother and Vicki.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

And they all go in the same car.

[Julia Bethvali]

And this is when Vicki starts to open up about the Vegas trip. Like how Vicki was feeling the whole time, why they went, why Vicki thought they went, why maybe they actually went that Justin, the ex showed up and it was weird. And Michelle was fine when Vicki left and that Michelle really did want to stay. Like, Vicki's. Like she wasn't being held hostage. Like she wanted to stay.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

And the family is surprised. Like the dad is saying, we all thought that Michelle moved on from Justin.

[Julia Bethvali]

Like we had everybody.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

No one has heard her mention him. Nobody knew that that was part of the plans going to Vegas on this trip.

[Julia Bethvali]

And I think that's really important to keep in mind everybody.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah.

[Julia Bethvali]

When we learn our lesson at the end of this thing.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

And like, once again, we're going to learn later. But like, Justin and Michelle were off and on for years. This was not a healthy relationship.

[Julia Bethvali]

No. And like when no one can get in touch with Justin, it's not surprising because he would bail on Michelle a lot. He would ghost her.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yes.

[Julia Bethvali]

So this is like something he did. And I'm like, wow, real fucking stand up guy. What a loser.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

But even then, even Vicki doesn't think Justin did it. Like Vicki says, what if Justin left

[Patrick Hines]

and left her alone at some hotel room and some bad man saw that she was by herself and took advantage and did something to her? I was thinking all sorts of like, scenarios and I was like, what if she's kidnapped right now? What if she's, you know, just gone?

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

No one is thinking yet that it's Justin.

[Julia Bethvali]

Nobody. And I think that's really important.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah, girl. Wayfair is back. Fam. We've got very exciting news, but only if you like to save money because it's way day at wayfair.

[Julia Bethvali]

Yeah. From April 25th through the 27th, you can score the best deals in home, like up to 80% off with free shipping on pretty much everything.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

That's insane. So, fam, Wayfair's got it all. It doesn't matter the esthetic. They've got everything. They've got mid century, they've got farmhouse contemporary. We once bought a couch from there. It was gold. It was like my favorite thing. It was so comfy and it looked so fancy.

[Julia Bethvali]

Well, they make it so easy to find what you need. They have all of these filters so you can go by like reviews or even size.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yep. And don't worry if you don't know how to build the thing, because I didn't. Installation and assembly services are available for a truly seamless experience.

[Julia Bethvali]

They just make everything so easy, honestly.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Exactly. Like, you dream about the furniture and then it's set up in your living

[Julia Bethvali]

room and then there you go.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

So, fam, Wayday is the sale to shop the best deals in home. We're talking up to 80% off with fast and free shipping on everything.

[Julia Bethvali]

Head to Wayfair.com April 25th through the 27th to shop Wayday.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

That's W A Y F A I

[Julia Bethvali]

R.com Wayfair Every style, every home.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Even mine.

[Julia Bethvali]

Even yours, girl.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Quince is back. Look, it's that time of year where we're all, like, going through our closets and getting rid of this stuff that we never wear. We're never going to wear again. You're starting to build a wardrobe of pieces that are well made, versatile, and easy to reach for every single day. That's why people come back to Quince all the time.

[Julia Bethvali]

I am such a quints girly. I can't even hide it. Like, I have that nylon cross body bag that I love. I have the stretch jeans that, that I love. I have that little lounge set that I love. I have the candles that I love

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

that we all love now.

[Julia Bethvali]

Oh, my God.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

And that's the thing. Quince makes beautiful everyday pieces using premium materials like 100% European linen, organic cotton, and super soft denim. With styles starting around 50 bucks.

[Julia Bethvali]

I know. And Quint works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen. So you're paying for quality, not brand markup. And they tell you. They tell you what it like. It could be elsewhere. And what you're paying on Quint that

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

you like that better than the bag. It's your favorite thing.

[Julia Bethvali]

I was going to get the bag anyway, but it's nice knowing.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Totally. Because then take that money and spend it on Dinner.

[Julia Bethvali]

Exactly. That's free money.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

So fam. Refresh your spring wardrobe with quints. Go to Quinte.com TCO for free shipping and 365 day returns.

[Julia Bethvali]

Now available in Canada too. Go to Q u I n c e.com TCO for free shipping and 365 day returns.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Quints.com TCO I love it. Me too.

[Julia Bethvali]

So November 9, 2010. Michelle's family, and including Vicky are in Vegas.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah.

[Julia Bethvali]

And they go right to the police. And the parents are talking to the detective. Detectives. And here's when they learn the worst thing that they could imagine. I mean, what kind of car ride is that with your daughter's dental records in your bag?

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

And you know, like Vicki was talking about that car ride. She's like, you can feel the tension. Nobody's talking. It was a torturous ride. And Vicki has this moment where, like, when the parents go in to talk to the detectives, Vicki stays outside. And so she doesn't know what's happening, but she's like, I know they're finding out right now if Michelle is dead or alive. And she says, I'm gonna go in there and I'm gonna be able to tell by the looks on the parents faces if Michelle is dead. And she goes into the room and the parents are like, their faces are towards the ground. And she starts screaming, tell me, tell me, tell me. And this is when the parents tell her, like, she's gone.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julia Bethvali]

So Michelle's body was found in the desert. I mean, very quickly. Yes, very, very quickly. Two people were out there doing target practice, just like shooting guns into the desert and found her because there was like smoke coming from the rocks. It's a mile and a half into the desert. And when they went to check out what was happening, they told us that

[Patrick Hines]

they found her body out in the desert.

[Guest or Interviewee (family member or expert)]

She was set on fire and buried about a mile and a half into the desert. They could see the smoke coming from the rocks. And they found my daughter's hand sticking out in the rocks.

[Julia Bethvali]

They saw Michelle's hand sticking out of the rocks, which means that they set her body on fire.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

They set her on fire.

[Julia Bethvali]

I can't even imagine. And like, you know, the parents are saying, like, something we hear all the time. And it's like they say it's a nightmare you can't wake up from. And I can't believe how many people have had. Can relate to that.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

I mean, I've told the story before, but when I first moved to New York, I worked with a woman named Romaine Patterson, who was Matthew Shepard's best friend.

[Julia Bethvali]

Sure.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

And she was the. If you've seen the Laramie Project, she was the woman. She was the young woman who did the Angel Wings thing. Christina Ricci played her in the movie and I was helping her write her memoir and she was saying, you never expect to know somebody who's gonna die, let alone know somebody who's gonna have been murdered, you know, like. And they talk about it like it is a quote unquote club, you know, to have a loved one be murdered. Like, until that happens to you, you can't possibly know what that's like.

[Julia Bethvali]

Right. You could sit here and have sympathy and have empathy and everything, but unless you understand, like, it's something you can't truly understand unless you've lived it.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah.

[Julia Bethvali]

You know?

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah.

[Julia Bethvali]

So everyone is devastated, everyone's shocked. But then the question sort of comes to the surface of, well, does Vicki know more? Because friends Amanda and Alexis seem to think so.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Well, I'm like, this is where we learn that Vicki was Michelle's secret keeper about everything she says. Better or worse.

[Julia Bethvali]

I was her secret diary.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah.

[Julia Bethvali]

Also just hit me. I'm wearing a Snoopy Christmas shirt. It's April.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Oh, my God, it's April.

[Julia Bethvali]

How April?

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Do you know what I would give to go outside today and have it be April?

[Julia Bethvali]

That's not.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

I would give. It's December. Family.

[Julia Bethvali]

You don't want to wish your life away, as they say, though.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

I don't. I just. It's too cold.

[Julia Bethvali]

I know.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

I'm not.

[Julia Bethvali]

It's also 40° today, so.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah, I know. This morning when I took Daisy to school, though, it was like. It was like 29.

[Julia Bethvali]

So you have LA blood.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

I definitely.

[Julia Bethvali]

It goes below 60 and you're shivering, you're freezing.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

I put hand warmers in my gloves today.

[Julia Bethvali]

It's 40 degrees out.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

I know. Hand warmers.

[Julia Bethvali]

It is.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

And they're 10 hours, which means my

[Julia Bethvali]

gloves are currently warming 42 degrees right now.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Oh, my God. That's like.

[Julia Bethvali]

That's nothing.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Downright tropical.

[Julia Bethvali]

That's nothing. So, ok, Michelle trusted Vicki. She had a lot of secrets. Vicki knew all of them. So by November 9, 2010, Vicki talks to police and she goes, you know what? I'm going to tell them everything. I did not want to hold back.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah. And like, this is the first time Vicki is saying that. Like, the police are questioning Vicki and the questions keep coming back to Justin, of course. And this is the first time that Vicki's like, my God, they think Justin did this.

[Julia Bethvali]

This.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

And now Vicki's got a story that could corroborate the fact that he's been violent with Michelle before.

[Julia Bethvali]

Because that's the question. Was there violence in the relationship? Was he abusive? And Amanda and Alexis say, we never saw or heard anything violent with Justin.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

We knew he was a dirtbag. Just, like, take off.

[Julia Bethvali]

Would she cry over him? Of course. We were all crying over idiots back then, you know, like. But it wasn't like, they didn't see anything, which, again, is very important. But Vicki says that very, very, very early on in the relationship, like, right away, Michelle. Michelle told Vicky.

[Patrick Hines]

Michelle told me one day that her and Justin got into an altercation. And it got pretty heated. And he was so upset, he pushed her against the wall and put his

[Julia Bethvali]

hands on her neck that Justin pushed Michelle up against the wall and put his hands on her neck.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

And she. Vicki. Like, Michelle never told anybody else, and Vicki never told anyone.

[Julia Bethvali]

Which means that the abuse happened early y. And that it only got worse.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yes, exactly.

[Julia Bethvali]

They were very good at hiding it, which happens all the time.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah. And, like, the dad is shocked by this. Shocked the dad. He says, I was shocked to learn that Michelle would stay in a violent

[Julia Bethvali]

relationship because at first, Michelle's dad thought Justin was murdered, too.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Right.

[Julia Bethvali]

That's how well this was hidden.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Because the dad tells us. I don't know if it's here or later, but, like, he thought of Kevin as a son. He's like, I welcomed. And we see family pictures where Kevin was, like, involved in everything.

[Julia Bethvali]

Yeah.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

You know, like, they loved Kevin.

[Julia Bethvali]

And so this is just another reminder. Like, just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it's not happening.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah.

[Julia Bethvali]

You know, and, like, it's all so complicated because Vicki is sitting here feeling so guilty. Like, Michelle told Vicki it was one time a long time ago, and it's never happened again. Vicki didn't want to ruin her friendship with Michelle or, like, put her on blast. She wanted to be a good friend, be a good secret keeper. They were really good at hiding it. And, like, what was Vicki supposed to do? Like, then what would happen? She'd be ostracized. She'd lose a friend. Like she believed, you know, what was she supposed to do?

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

No, I mean, you know, my thing is, like, I think you waited a little too long to tell the police the story.

[Julia Bethvali]

Fine.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

But, you know. Know what I mean? No, I mean, what. What do you do? You know?

[Julia Bethvali]

And, like, when I've. I've tried to, you know, shed some light on Things that were a lot less harmful than getting shoved against the wall. And I don't. That person doesn't speak to me anymore.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Right.

[Julia Bethvali]

So, like, it's very, very, very delicate. And Vicki, of course, you don't want to actually imagine your friend getting the shit kicked out of her. So I think it's very easy to be like, my best friend would never lie to me about this.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yes.

[Julia Bethvali]

If she was in trouble, she would tell me, it happened one time. Maybe he was drunk, I don't know. But, like. And then Michelle was never like a sad. Right. No one in her life had any idea her father treated him like a son.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah. But there's no way in the world it went from this happening one time all these years ago to murder.

[Julia Bethvali]

That's how, you know, sneaky he was. That's how good they are at hiding it. And that's how groomed and abused Michelle was.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yes.

[Julia Bethvali]

So we can sit here now that we have the context. It's like, oh, he was like, sucking her back in. She wasn't. Was she on paper manipulating her friend to get her to go to Vegas? Maybe a little.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah.

[Julia Bethvali]

Once you see the full picture, you're

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

like, the guy lived in Vegas, so, like, he was going to be there whether she wanted to see him or not. You know what I mean?

[Julia Bethvali]

So let's get the son of a bitch.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah. The cops top priority is to find Justin. They get his cell phone records.

[Julia Bethvali]

I'm like, you should get Vicki on that. She gets the cell phone information.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Oh, my God. You don't even need a warren.

[Julia Bethvali]

Right?

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

But they see that on the night that Michelle went missing, there were text messages between Justin and Michelle. And it was like an argument. They're able to read the messages, which I was amazed by.

[Guest or Interviewee (family member or expert)]

There was some type of argument. And I think she had locked him out wherever she was staying. So at one point he made access. And then there was a ping with Justin's phone close to where she was found. And I think that's when the murder, I think had happened. Around one in the morning.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

There's a ping on Justin's phone near where her body was found at about one in the morning, which is when they assume the murder happened.

[Julia Bethvali]

All right, come on.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

We got the guy. Well, we got. We got him in terms of he did it, but now we gotta find him.

[Julia Bethvali]

Well, he's in the wind. No one has any idea where he is. Is he hiding? Is he on the run?

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

And his phone is. So they can't track him anymore.

[Julia Bethvali]

And his entire family is being shady. His dad, his brother. No one will help, no one will talk to the cops. Zero concern for Michelle.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yes.

[Julia Bethvali]

So clearly he's on the run. And what's scary is that Michelle's car keys were missing, but her car keys also had her house keys on them.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

And like, this is where the dad's like, I loved this guy, but now I'm terrified because if he's got the capacity to kill my daughter, he'll do anything.

[Julia Bethvali]

Right.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

And all of the friends are saying the same thing. Everybody was afraid that this guy's coming for all of them.

[Julia Bethvali]

And he's been hiding it so well for so long.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yes.

[Julia Bethvali]

Right.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

So we don't even know who this guy is. We've done a forever, but we don't

[Julia Bethvali]

know him at all 100%. So now it's November 21st and it's two weeks after Michelle's murder. And like the funeral was absolutely packed. Everybody showed up for Michelle. She had a million friends.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

The dad says. And like, I can only imagine, like he says he has this out of body moment at the funeral where he's like, what am I doing here? Burying a child like that is. We hear people say all the time that that's the most unnatural thing in the world. As a parent, I cannot, I. I've never imagined that moment. No. You know, and all of a sudden you're living it.

[Julia Bethvali]

Yeah. Like you're not to.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Right.

[Julia Bethvali]

You know, what kind of life is that to imagine every horrible thing that could possibly happen?

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Like, well, normally I'm that guy. Normally you can count on me for that.

[Julia Bethvali]

But not that, but you know what I mean? Like.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

I know, I know. And, and it's like, it's like that surreal moment that feels like it, like, like you're like you're reliving, learning it every second you're at the funeral. And like you, like you can't. You, like you just can't believe it's happening.

[Julia Bethvali]

I can't believe it.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

We have this amazing scene with the mom where she's got the urn with Michelle's ashes in it. And she's talking about how grateful she is that they never buried Michelle because she can still hold her. And I felt that to my soul.

[Patrick Hines]

We kind of shared it and we still do. And it's like whoever needs her can take the urn. I'm still able to keep her close and hold on to that until I see her again.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

We share it now. Whoever needs Michelle gets to be in possession of the urn as long as they need it.

[Julia Bethvali]

It's a beautiful thing.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

It is, really. I mean, there. I guess, like, it could be described as ghoulish or whatever, but, like, I think it was. I mean, I felt it. I. I was like, yeah. Yes.

[Julia Bethvali]

You know, it's so interesting how context changes everything. I was just reminded of, I think one of our very early bonus episodes, there was a case that we covered where there was a fucking creep, and we're pretty sure he killed this woman. And then, remember, he was making it so that her son didn't have any access to anything.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yes.

[Julia Bethvali]

And then he was, like, sleeping with her urn and her hair, and he was such a fucking creep, and we hated it. But see what. See how context changes everything. Cause now it brings comfort to these people who are going through. Through the worst thing imaginable, physically.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Pick up Michelle in the urn and hold on.

[Julia Bethvali]

But I remember we were like, that's so creepy. We hate this guy. But because he was, like, torturing this poor woman's son.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

There's been a lot of growth on

[Julia Bethvali]

this podcast when that's. We're talking about what's in front of us. I know, like, in that moment, we were like, oh, my God, how dare you? And he was so mean to that son.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yes, yes, yes. Oh, my God. I don't remember what episode that was,

[Julia Bethvali]

but I remember I just, like, had the vision of him, like. Like, showing, and he was, like, showing off. Off. I was like, this is so, like, ghoulish and disgusting.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah.

[Julia Bethvali]

There was 9, 11. Right. And then that's what. Then he killed her. It was like the lake house. Is that right, or am I conflating?

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

I don't know.

[Julia Bethvali]

This just occurred to me now, so I didn't research it.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

We used to say ghoulish all the time.

[Julia Bethvali]

You love that word. It's a great word. It really, like, encapsulates a lot of what it means.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

It's a word that sounds like exactly what it means.

[Julia Bethvali]

You can hem and haw. I'm pointing at myself right now, trying to find the right words. Or you could just say ghoul it. Like one word. Like nails. Yeah, what we're saying. Ghoulish is it. For better or worse,

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

girl. Ziprecruiter is back. I'm going to blow your mind. Did you know that the average employer has to sort through roughly 250 resumes per job opening?

[Julia Bethvali]

That's, like, a lot of time.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

That's ridiculous.

[Julia Bethvali]

Well, if you're hiring, here's some good news. You can now Review all of these resumes and applications faster. Thanks to ZipRecruiter.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah. And ZipRecruiter has a new feature that instantly shows you the most interested qualified candidates first.

[Julia Bethvali]

And today you can try it for [e-mail] TCO so, fam, get this.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

I've used the recruiter. It has been so helpful because they've got this powerful matching technology that finds qualified candidates quickly.

[Julia Bethvali]

And with ZipRecruiters, a new feature, qualified candidates who are very interested in your job show up at the top of your list.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

You also can get a feel for their personality. So candidates can tell you in their own words why they're interested in your job. And, like, that makes a big difference.

[Julia Bethvali]

Yeah. So it makes sense that ZipRecruiter is the number one rated hiring site based on you to just say and fam,

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Cut through the standard and get to the standouts. With ZipRecruiter, we see what you did there.

[Patrick Hines]

How cute.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah.

[Julia Bethvali]

Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

And now you can try it for [e-mail] TCO that's ziprecruiter.com TCO meet your match on Zip Recruiter.

[Julia Bethvali]

So finally, there's a break in the case.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yes.

[Julia Bethvali]

A friend of Justin's brother calls the cops and she comes forward and she's like, hi, 911, my friend's brother murdered his girlfriend.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yes.

[Julia Bethvali]

Her name's Michelle.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah. So, like, now we've got, like, the proof or whatever of what we've known all along that it was fudgeing Justin. And, like, this is where the friends are saying, like, you know, Justin's life was really falling apart at this moment.

[Julia Bethvali]

Another thing he was hiding. Right. So, like, he was a mess. He failed out of college. He didn't have basketball anymore.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah.

[Julia Bethvali]

And Vicky's like, things weren't panning out the way he'd hoped.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

And Michelle was always super supportive of him. Like, he would come and go out of her life when he needed her for support.

[Julia Bethvali]

And who's to say he wasn't trying to suck her back in? And she wasn't saying, get away from me. I'm sure I just took the GMAT or whatever. It was like, who knows what they were fighting about?

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah. Then it's March 17, 2011. It's four months after Michelle's murder, and the detective called the parents. They found the son of a bitch.

[Guest or Interviewee (family member or expert)]

Finally, the detectives called us and let us Know that, that he's in Mississippi, hiding out at his mother's house. And the FBI, U.S. marshals were going to go into the house at 5

[Julia Bethvali]

in the morning, hiding, hiding.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

I know.

[Julia Bethvali]

And his mommy was taking care of him.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Can you imagine that? I mean, like that. I just cannot imagine being that parent.

[Julia Bethvali]

Well, actually not anymore. Because the FBI and the US Marshals bust the door in at 5:00am the

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

door open, they get the guy and

[Julia Bethvali]

he's instantly pull, killing some shit, trying to get all of these delays. He's trying to claim insanity. Give me a break.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

He calls Vicky a year later.

[Julia Bethvali]

So it's like a year and a half after he brutally murdered Michelle and creeped Vicki out. And he calls Vicki from prison as he's awaiting trial and Vicki takes the call.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Vicki's like questionable choice on Vicky's part.

[Julia Bethvali]

The fudgeing audacity.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

I know.

[Julia Bethvali]

Piece of shit. Like what? The nerve.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Because he's calling her to say, remember how that night in Vegas you thought I would remember the night that I killed Michelle, that we saw each other? Remember how you were saying I was acting really creepy and I was out of my mind? Could you like maybe testify to that in court for me? Vicki is out of her mind being on the phone with the fucking piece of shit that murdered her best friend who's asking her for a favor.

[Julia Bethvali]

She hangs up on him, hangs up, hangs up on him. And Vicki's like, no, no, no, you're. You're a creep. Because you're a creep.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yes.

[Julia Bethvali]

It's not because you were blind with insanity and you snapped, first of all. And remember, Vicky's the wrong one to call because if you remember, she was the secret keeper.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Exactly.

[Julia Bethvali]

She knew.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

She knew from the beginning. She knew what you did. Exactly.

[Julia Bethvali]

She didn't maybe know the depths of it then, but now that we're here.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yes.

[Julia Bethvali]

A year and a half after the murder of her best friend, you better believe she's going back and putting things back and seeing all of the things that Michelle said. Maybe subtly, maybe veiled comments.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah.

[Julia Bethvali]

Vicky knows more than you think, you fudgeing idiot.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

She knows.

[Julia Bethvali]

Stay stupid. She hangs up on him. Good. I hope, I hope. It was a good slam. I know, like a nice clean slam.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Now we're like, we can't do that with the iPhones these days.

[Julia Bethvali]

But the slam, that was so good. Like you'd hear it ring a little. Like the mechanics of it would ring back at you a little bit.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Julia Bethvali]

Nice clean slam.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

God damn. Those were the days, you know What? I mean, so 2017. This is five years later. They've been like, that's how long this guy's been dragging this out.

[Julia Bethvali]

So it's seven years after Michelle's murder, six years after his arrest.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yes. The authorities come to the parents with a plea deal.

[Guest or Interviewee (family member or expert)]

He would have plead guilty to second degree murder, and the sentence was 15 to 25 years. And then assault with a deadly weapon, and that was eight to 20 years. And it was consecutive. We. We were okay with that. We. We. We agreed with it.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

So he's looking at a.

[Julia Bethvali]

Like a 23 to 45.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Thank you so much. I was. Do you see me trying to. Do you see my. My. My. My eyes doing the math?

[Julia Bethvali]

No, I gotcha.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

I couldn't do it.

[Julia Bethvali]

That's right. Right.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

But the family says yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Like, they're. They're not gonna go through the whole thing of the trial. Like, they. They agree to it.

[Julia Bethvali]

25 to 45 years. Like. Yeah, they feel good about that.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Why put themselves through the ordeal of a trial to maybe get nothing?

[Julia Bethvali]

They know he did it.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yes.

[Julia Bethvali]

What are you going to do?

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

So June 8, 2023, the dad makes this whole speech about, like, it was my mission to put him in prison for the rest of his life, keeping there as long as I possibly could. June 8, 2023, he kills himself.

[Julia Bethvali]

He only lasted, what, five years in prison?

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah.

[Julia Bethvali]

Six. Five.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah. And one of the girlfriends just, like, says, you know, if he was going to kill himself eventually anyway, like, he should have just killed himself that night instead of Michelle.

[Julia Bethvali]

And not murdered Michelle.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah.

[Julia Bethvali]

Or tortured her all these years.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah.

[Julia Bethvali]

And like everyone you know, Vicki and Amanda and Alexis, they are all coming together and looking back, and they've learned a lot, but Vicki has learned probably the most.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah.

[Julia Bethvali]

Because she says. And this is not to put guilt on her because he did this.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

But she says, I definitely just move differently now when I encounter a friend in a unhealthy situation. So she didn't die in vain. I no longer just, you know, stay quiet.

[Julia Bethvali]

You know, I'm gonna speak up from now on. Like, if I. I'm gonna. She knows the red flags now. She knows the signs. And, you know. But, Vicki, it's not your fault.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Vicki, it's not your fault. But speaking up is also. Also good.

[Julia Bethvali]

Also good. And also speaking of, at the end of this, it says if you or someone you know is experiencing relationship abuse in any form.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yes.

[Julia Bethvali]

Help is available. It's the National Domestic violence Hotline. Provides free confidential support and resources at 1-800-799-SAFE7233 or through chat@the hotline.org and I want to tell you, if you're listening to this or you. This information is valuable to you. When you go to those websites, there are really easy outs in case someone comes in. So suddenly it, like, turns into Google where you can X out and it'll change the website so it looks like a totally benign website.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yes.

[Julia Bethvali]

These websites totally have your back, so you can feel safe doing it. It's really cool.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Geniuses behind that stuff.

[Julia Bethvali]

I learned that. I can't remember when I learned that, but I was going in some research for an episode I wanted to see or find resources for something else.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah.

[Julia Bethvali]

And when I xed out of it, it became. And I was like, oh, that's why.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Oh, that's amazing. It's really cool.

[Julia Bethvali]

It's really cool.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Oh, girl. We did. What's it called?

[Julia Bethvali]

So this is our first bonus episode of 2026.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

I hope April's amazing, everybody I know.

[Julia Bethvali]

The series is called A Killer Among Friends. This is season one, episode five, Secrets to Reveal. So we. We. We started off with a new series.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Yeah. We did it. Thanks for hanging out with us, fam.

[Julia Bethvali]

Yeah. Welcome to the bonus episode. So we're gonna sprinkle these in for the rest of the year. We have 22 of these bad boys.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

And welcome to April. Let me. Hey, can you send a message to Patrick in December, let them know it's gonna get warmer eventually?

[Patrick Hines]

Okay.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

You know what I mean?

[Julia Bethvali]

Yeah. We'll get through it.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

We love you.

[Julia Bethvali]

We love you. Thank you. Bye.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Pacific Power, Punto Net, Barra, Wildfire, and Doug. There's nowhere I wouldn't go to help someone customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual. Even if it means sitting front row at a comedy show.

[Patrick Hines]

Hey, everyone.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Check out this guy and his bird.

[Julia Bethvali]

What is. Is this your first date?

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Oh, no. We help people customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual Together. We're married. Me to a human, him to a bird. Yeah, the bird looks out of your league. Anyways, get a [e-mail] or with your local agent.

[Julia Bethvali]

Liberty. Liberty.

[Co-host (possibly a female friend or commentator)]

Liberty.

[Julia Bethvali]

Liberty.