498: The Secrets of the Twelve Tribes Cult

Summary

True Crime Obsessed: Episode 498 – The Secrets of the Twelve Tribes Cult (May 5, 2026)

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Episode Overview

Main Theme:
This episode of "True Crime Obsessed" recaps the People Magazine Investigates special "The Secrets of the Twelve Tribes Cult," delving deep into the cult’s disturbing history of control, abuse, exploitation, and the complex experiences of people who both sought it out and were born into it. Hosts Patrick Hinds and Julian Benzavalli bring their signature blend of compassionate outrage and biting humor as they examine the cult’s origins, child abuse allegations, labor practices, failed interventions, and the heartbreaking fates of families torn apart by communal indoctrination.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Twelve Tribes Cult: Who Are They?

• Founded: By Gene Spriggs in 1972; inspired by his “epiphany” while working and traveling with a carnival ([08:21]–[08:54]).
• Beliefs: Mix of fundamentalist Christianity and Judaism, intent on communal living, total devotion, and renunciation of worldly possessions ([06:12]–[11:21]).
• The group’s recruitment heavily targeted “alternative” youth at music festivals and through hippie-style restaurants known as the Yellow Deli ([12:45]–[15:39]).

Notable Quote:

“This is not the 70s! Like, Netflix existed. We know what cults are in 2013…they googled a cult.”
— Patrick ([05:19]–[05:59])

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2. Recruitment and Expansion

• Recruitment Sites: Grateful Dead/Fish/Bob Dylan concerts, Yellow Delis, and online forums ([12:45]–[13:56], [20:49]–[22:02]).
• Yellow Deli: Used for both revenue and indoctrination/recruitment; cult members and their kids work long hours unpaid ([13:56]–[15:31]).
• International reach: Communes in the US and worldwide—members are moved between locations and separated from their families.

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3. Culture of Control and Abuse

• Uncompromising Authority: Control of all aspects of life—where you live, whom you marry, even your name ([24:35]–[25:46]).
• Child Abuse:
  • Routine, violent corporal punishment is justified as “godly discipline”; anyone can beat a child for any reason ([01:37], [28:20]–[29:59]).
  • Notable Testimony:

    “We developed something we call scourging, where somebody would be spanked from the soles of their feet all the way to their neck.”
    — Former member’s account ([28:20]–[28:39])

  • Forced child labor, denial of play, and lack of real education ([18:56]–[19:09]).
• Medical Neglect:
  • Medical care is actively avoided; sick and injured children and adults expected to “trust God” instead of seeking help.
  • Example: Tony’s 4-year-old daughter’s neck injury untreated; members outright told not to seek medical help for the sake of secrecy ([39:36]–[41:46], [49:21]–[50:23]).

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4. Tactics to Prevent Escape

• Secrecy: Members’ births not registered, making tracking impossible for law enforcement ([36:05]–[36:43]).
• Family Separation: Children, parents, and siblings separated as punishment or to minimize dissent ([46:49]–[47:18], [56:33]–[57:08]).
• Ostracism & Shame: Public repentance rituals and humiliation for questioning authority or attempting to leave ([45:20]–[46:27]).

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5. Failed Interventions & Legal Complications

• Vermont Raid 1984:
  • State police raid 14 houses, seizing 112 kids, but the action unravels in court because the cult’s secrecy means warrants are blank/unenforceable ([35:31]–[37:11]).
• Legal System Failings:
  • Judges’ technicalities, flawed search warrants, and religious freedom arguments lead to dropped charges.
  • Parents’ rights routinely trump the best interest of children—even in the face of overwhelming abuse ([38:23]–[39:06]).

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6. Personal Stories of Survivors

• Tony Shaw:
  • Sought out the cult with his wife; describes harrowing abuse, loss of his children, and his attempts to leave ([02:26]–[03:12], [13:04]–[34:54], [54:13]–[58:59]).
  • Notable Quote:

    “Every time he's like, ‘I had no choice.’ ...It always ends with, ‘I had no choice but to just trust in God, hope that my kids don't die because the elders are saying I can't take my kid to the hospital.’”
    — Patrick ([34:26]–[34:54])

  • After being expelled, Tony manages to rescue two sons but not the rest of his family ([59:03]–[61:05]).
• Tammy:
  • Born in the cult; worked relentlessly in the Yellow Deli from childhood; severely injured in a meat grinder accident ([23:08]–[23:31], [51:32]–[53:12]).
  • Eventually escapes with the help of her aunt and works to rebuild her life ([62:18]–[63:31]).
  • Notable Quote:

    “I ran out the back of the Yellow Deli, jumped in the car, and we drove off.”
    — Tammy ([63:08])

• Luke:
  • First male born into the cult; forced marriage, eventual escape with his children ([10:27]–[11:19], [56:33]–[57:21]).

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7. Systemic Failures and Next Steps

• Sheltering of abuse and exploitation continues due to lack of governmental/NGO action.
• Even high-profile documentaries and family court battles rarely lead to resolution: children are effectively “off the grid” ([63:31]–[64:45]).
• Despite the founder’s death in 2021, the cult persists with estimated worldwide membership of 4,000 ([65:39]–[65:52]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “They Googled a cult!” — Julian, exasperated at how modern-day adherents join groups so openly cult-like ([05:19]).
• “You just want to go and like, give up all your earthly possessions, worship the Lord all day long. That’s what they Google.” — Patrick ([06:00]).
• “If you really love your kid, you will beat the hell out of them. And if you don’t beat them, they will go to hell.” — Recounting cult doctrine ([28:02]).
• “Let's sing a song that tells about how big our God is.” — Example of “education” inside the cult ([17:55]).
• “They are there to fight for their right to beat anybody's kids for nine hours.” — Patrick, on the cult’s courtroom arguments ([38:23]).
• Multiple timestamps: Hosts rail against lack of legal action, share their own “cults in my town” experiences, and commiserate over failed rescues ([13:56]–[15:39], [60:18]–[61:14]).

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:18] – Trigger warning for disturbing child abuse allegations.
• [05:19]–[05:59] – Hosts’ astonishment that members "Googled a cult" in the 2010s.
• [12:45]–[14:44] – The Yellow Deli as a recruitment and labor tool.
• [15:50]–[17:10] – New members surrendering all possessions, beginning life in the cult.
• [18:56]–[19:09] – Children forced to work, banned from play or reading.
• [28:20]–[28:39] – Detailed description of corporal punishment (“scourging”).
• [35:31]–[37:11] – Details of 1984 Vermont raid and ultimate legal failure.
• [39:36]–[41:46] – Medical neglect, refusal to treat even life-threatening injuries.
• [45:20]–[46:27] – Tammy’s attempted escape and the tactic of public repentance.
• [51:32]–[53:21] – Tammy’s workplace accident and subsequent punishment.
• [59:03]–[61:05] – Tony’s attempt to reconnect with his children, the cult’s obstruction.

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Flow and Tone

The hosts move swiftly between incredulous humor and raw emotion, regularly naming the absurdity and cruelty of cult tactics while also addressing their own struggle with feeling sympathy for adults who willingly chose this life. They balance outrage—especially concerning the failures of authorities and courts—with compassion for those born or trapped in the system.

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Episode Closing Updates

• Tammy: Now in college, studying graphic design.
• Luke: Living free with his family in Virginia.
• Tony: Reunited with two sons but missing four children still in the cult.
• The Twelve Tribes: Still active with 4,000 members; continued allegations of abuse.

Quote:

“Jean Spriggs, the founder, died in 2021. The Twelve Tribes live on... Allegations of abuse and exploitation are ongoing. Guess what? The cult did not respond to requests for comment.”
— Patrick ([65:39])

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Final Thoughts

• The story of the Twelve Tribes is a harrowing intersection of systemic failures, cult psychology, and family devastation.
• Even after high-profile investigations, the group persists, enabled by loopholes in law and a culture that too often puts parental and religious rights ahead of child welfare.
• The hosts urge continued vigilance, activism, and support for survivors and whistleblowers, calling out for “no more secrets” ([66:05]).

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For more:

• Watch "People Magazine Investigates: The Secrets of the Twelve Tribes Cult" (HBO Max, Discovery)
• Connect in safe, supportive communities—even if it’s just to debrief after episodes this tough ([00:22]–[00:41]).

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Next Episode Preview:
The hosts lighten things up next with "Trainwreck: The Real Project X" (Netflix). No cults, no murder—just chaos!

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“Let’s get on top of this and get it… Thank you so much, People Magazine!”
— Patrick ([66:10])

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Safer, sassier, ever-determined—this is True Crime Obsessed. Stay safe.

Transcript

[A]

This one's a tough one.

[B]

Yeah, it sure is. It sure is.

[A]

Remember, like, last week whenever we did the last People magazine investigates, I'm like, I love this series. Can we do more?

[B]

I know.

[A]

And then I, like, sobbed into my Cheerios all morning watching this one.

[B]

I do remember that.

[A]

Yeah, this was. This was not the easiest episode we've done.

[B]

It was not. It was not.

[A]

Hi, Julian Benzavalli.

[B]

Hello. Patrick Hines, fam.

[A]

Join the Facebook group, Please. We've been asking you for nine years if it's, like, taking you this long to sort of be like, should I or shouldn't I? I'm going to go ahead, say, please do it.

[B]

And if you've already said no, sorry for asking again.

[A]

You know what? We're going to keep asking, though. That's just the price of doing business. But there's, like, almost 60,000 people in the group. Like, make friends, talk about the episodes, talk about your dogs. Go find, like, Safe Community on the Internet. We've got a moderator named Sasha. She makes sure the rules are followed and everybody is really nice. It's a really safe place to, like, go and check in once a day or whatever.

[B]

Yeah, you can also do that on our Discord server.

[A]

Yeah, the Discord. Tell them how that works.

[B]

Again, it's a server and it has a bunch of channels and everyone's really nice and we just, like, talk and hang out and you can talk about the episodes or you can talk about other things. Like everything has a specific channel. It's a little more organized.

[A]

I guess I was going to say it's like the more organized version of the Facebook group, which is why it doesn't work for I need chaos. Yeah, no, you know what I mean.

[B]

No, Discord is not like that.

[A]

No, it's very, very organized. Yeah, girl, tell them what we're talking about today.

[B]

So this is called the Secrets of the twelve Tribes Cult. It's on hbo, Max and Discovery. And at the very top, we get the on screen text saying that this episode involves disturbing allegations of abuse against children. Viewer discretion is advised. Could not agree more.

[A]

I'm going to also say disturbing descriptions of abuse against children. So take care when watching. This is one for, like, in the car with the kids.

[C]

No, we went from zero to 60. We just started wailing away on the kids.

[D]

Bamboo rods. Paddles. Paddles with holes in them.

[E]

You're gonna spank that child. Swat, Swat, swat. They were intense pain. Both of them screaming and crying. It makes me feel freaking ugly.

[D]

They have stories of people that left,

[A]

got Hit by a train, burned to death.

[F]

The leaders had told me, if you, I will get killed. I said, oh, my God, what am I gonna do?

[D]

When my mom died, we were literally told that God cut her down.

[E]

Yeah. They are a cold. And I wanna know right now, where's my family?

[A]

Right at the top, we meet Tony Shaw. He's the father of six, three boys, three girls ranging from six to 14. He says he grew up in Louisiana, believing in Christ. And who didn't?

[B]

Yeah. He said his mom was Southern Baptist.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. He said in his 20s, he moved away to Washington. Started noticing that things in his life were not aligned with God. He was smoking a little pot, drinking a little beer. And this leads him to a church where he meets his, like, wife, Amy.

[B]

Yeah. You know, he says if you really listen to Tony, he says a lot in those first few sentences, like, his religious trauma is real and it's at the forefront of this. He doesn't say it as bluntly as I just did.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Everything is like, I want to be more aligned with God. I wasn't living right. I was looking for something. And I'm like, oh, I know where this is going, Tony.

[A]

Yeah. And, like, he meets Amy, and they're just like a match for each other. Like, at first sight, he says she was a little tipp, what they met.

[E]

But I saw that her heart was really, really to serve God. And that was very attractive to me. I felt like God was showing me that we're supposed to be together. And she felt the same way. She said, tony, doesn't matter if we gave up everything, I would live with you in a box. And she meant it.

[A]

He saw that her heart was to serve God, and that was very attractive to him.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That's like the number one thing on his list.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

They get married December20 or 2007. Their daughter was born nine months later. Do the math on that. You know, how long does it take to cook a kid?

[B]

Exactly that.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

[B]

Just right.

[A]

Okay. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, either they got right to

[A]

it or there was another reason to get married.

[B]

Well, wouldn't, you know, like a couple weeks into the pregnancy. Whatever this.

[A]

I don't know. I just.

[B]

They were having kids no matter what, Tony.

[A]

Say a year. You know what I mean?

[B]

They like, whatever.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But their first daughter is named Ahava. Her name means God's love revealed. And she was like, happy, go lucky. Very smiley little kid.

[A]

Yeah. I didn't write down all the kids names. We get them, like, a lot throughout. I like. I just. The Amount of that these kids are about to go through. My sort of like consciousness was like in and out when it was talking about the kids stuff.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We learned in 2013, Tony is a cable installer. Amy is a stay at home mom. And he just wants to find a life where they can be serving God all day. And she agrees.

[B]

We're told their faith is everything. It is, quote, their entire lives. And I, this is my opinion. I think this is a very slippery slope. I find this way of life dangerous.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we're living it because Tony and Amy literally searched for a cult. They actually, I know everyone says you don't join a cult.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

These two literally went online.

[E]

We started searching online looking for a group of Christians that were living communally. And I came across the 12 Tribes

[B]

website and Googled, like, why can't we just like find a community where we can serve God in a commune with a fucking guy in a long robe all day long in the middle of the woods? Like, watch the documentary. That's what happened.

[A]

And also, I want to point out, it took until the second time I watched this to remember this is 2013. This is not the 70s. Like, no, there's been plenty, like Netflix existed. There were plenty of cult documentaries. We know what cults are in 2013.

[B]

And this was not hiding the fact that they were a cult.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, were they hiding the violent child abuse? Sure. But everything else, like their website site's culty. Their website still exists. I was on it today. The promotional video is culty. It was like, cult, cult, cult, cult, cult.

[A]

So on some level, cult.com, 12 tribes.

[B]

That's exactly what it is. And on some level they knew that going in.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So either they were like, oh my God, this is a perfect cult for us, or they were like, it's totally a cult, but it's not like a cult call.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And it's exactly what we want. So we'll just join it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Either way, they knew on some level

[A]

it is wild to think that there are people, like, they don't put it in that, in the, in these words, but there are people who just do actually want to join a cult. You just want to go and like, give up all your earthly poss, Worship the Lord all day long.

[B]

That's what they Google that and they

[A]

do and they find the 12 tribes. We learn that the 12 tribes, this cult is named after the traditional trail. I can't say it. 12 tribes of Israel.

[B]

Yeah. And it combines elements of traditional Judaism with fundamentalist Christianity.

[A]

Yeah. As soon as you put the word fundamentalist in it. I'm out taking the fun out of fundamentalist if you ask me.

[B]

Googling how can I be? I just don't. I mean, they googled it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I will never get past that. Yeah, they were like, what's the best culture we need to change?

[A]

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[B]

It was founded by this guy named Gene Spriggs who looks a lot like Jerry Garcia of like a spitting image. Don't worry, we'll get to the Grateful Dead in a little bit.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

But Gene was like a pretty boring guy. He worked at a carpet factory. He just lived his life and then at 35 years old, he wakes up one day and he's kind of had

[C]

it and just went out on the road, traveled with a carnival for a while and he said people were barking at him you know, hey, you know, come see the bearded lady. And he said that as clear as if it was a real voice. God spoke to him and said, do you think this is what I created you for? And immediately he started a Bible study

[B]

at the traveling carnival. God is like, do you think that this is, like, what kind of life is this? And I'm like, this take is tepid at best.

[A]

And also, the traveling circus life could be great.

[B]

But, like, this is not a big revelation that you're at, like, quote, a freak show. And one day you're like, what am I doing here?

[A]

Once again, my name is Patrick.

[B]

You're, like, wearing the fucking red solo cup, like, earrings outside of courthouse. And you're like, what am I doing? Like, this is not.

[A]

Is that a Karen Reid reference? Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Where you. You have to look at yourself and be like, wait. Like, corruption aside, like, wait a second.

[A]

I know this is not what it's about, but the red solo cup earrings really does tell you something about yourself when you're, like, buying those unironically, right?

[B]

At some point. Look, the corruption was very real.

[A]

I'm not saying it wasn't for sure.

[B]

But for him to be like. And that was my big revelation. That makes sense to me, that you will look around and be like, what am I doing here?

[A]

At the same time, who hasn't had that mom of, like, I'm in my 20s. I don't really know what I'm doing. I'm looking for purpose. This is what cults prey on. I've told this story a million times. When I was in college, in our orientation week, every event was like, have a great time. You're going to love Emerson. Don't join a cult.

[B]

I can't believe I've never heard of anyone else having that experience.

[A]

And, like, I don't even know of all my friends, if I have any from college still remaining that, like, remember that. But I remember at every event, it was, like, sponsored by don't join a cult dot com.

[B]

That is.

[A]

Is crazy because it's the most vulnerable age. And, like, when you're lost and not really knowing, like, this guy Tony is, like, primed for this, right?

[B]

So most people would be like, wow, maybe I should leave this traveling carnival with the quote, freak show. But he took it to a very, very dark place.

[A]

He did.

[B]

Most people wouldn't. He did, yes.

[A]

So we meet Luke. He tells us that the 12 tribes believed that they have the true gospel. Well, because they all.

[B]

Luke was born into it.

[A]

He was the first male born into the twelve tribes cult will learn.

[B]

Yeah. And like, God told Gene Spriggs directly. And I'm like, paging Joseph Smith and those God golden plates.

[A]

And like, once again, like, this is 2013, that, like, Tony and his family are going into this. Like, it's one thing before the Internet existed and like, you weren't like a well read person or whatever. We know that every cult leader thinks that their, their belief system is like the one true belief system and that, like God came and told it directly to them. Like, the red flags are very obvious.

[B]

This is a cult that was very much a cult from the beginning. Again, were they? Like, the child abuse was not on the website. Yeah, granted. Yeah. But it was very much a cult. Like the Andrea Yates cult. Like this, the guy's screaming and it's not fun at all. And like, it's just. They googled a cult. I'm so sorry to say it, but they did.

[A]

They also say that, like, and that

[D]

Christianity has been teaching a watered down version because they don't require people to physically give up all their possessions. They look at Luke 14:33, it says, no one can be my disciple who does not give up all his own possessions. And they take that literally.

[A]

Everyone in this cult takes a vow of poverty. Like, the second that you, like, roll up, you have to turn over everything, every dollar that you have, anything literally on your body that's worth any amount of money. Where is it going? It's going into this guy, Gene Spriggs Pocket.

[B]

Yeah. So he started the cult in 1972. They didn't tell us that. I had to Google it. But that matters because Gene Spriggs and his wife Marsha are actively seeking out the, quote, alternative hippie kids. He literally calls them kids.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He says we're a movement for kids who won't go to church. He wants young, impressionable, rejecting the system.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So he can control and manipulate them. Like, he was clear about his intentions from day one in 1972.

[A]

And like, they literally start going to every last Grateful Dead show and looking for every hippie on acid they can give food to. And then like, scream the Bible out.

[B]

Yeah, we will get to that. And it's a major deal what they were doing at those concerts with their

[A]

double wide bus or whatever, but it

[B]

was working because young people were drawn to him. Other churches were sending their, quote, troubled kids to Gene fucking well.

[A]

What was like, Rent was like the musical for people who don't like musicals. Like, it's a good, like the good marketing tactic. It's like, we are the. We are like the church group for the kids that don't like going to church. Like, it's not real, you know, like they just want to manipulate and abuse you, but, like, it's a great Tagline.

[B]

So in 1973, Gene opens the Yellow Deli, which is a 24 hour health food restaurant. And he did this for two reasons. One, so they could make some money for the cult, but most importantly, they could start recruiting people.

[A]

Yeah. And by the way, they're located in Chattanooga, Tennessee, where they've bought up as much real estate as they can find.

[B]

And this restaurant is very open about their intentions.

[C]

There was a phrase that we used from the very beginning is said, come for a day or to stay. It was, let's just hang out, everybody having a good time talking about Jesus. If you went into the Yellow Deli, you knew it was Christian based. Their menus had a flower and it said, we serve the fruit of the spirit, why not ask?

[B]

We serve the fruit of the spirit, why not ask? I need to. I have a lot of things to say. One, I love a homegrown hippie restaurant like this.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

There was a place upstate called the Eggs Nest that was there for like 50 years. It was not a cult. It is unfortunately closed now. But it looked like this place, but much cooler. It's all wood. Everything was painted. It was very, very cool, very artsy. The food was healthy and fresh. Mike and I loved it. It was upstate. It was great. I think I still follow them on Instagram. So I would be like, oh, what? Like if we're walking down the street somewhere, I'd be like, let's try this place. But don't, because it still exists. And you would be like, funding the cult.

[A]

The Yellow Deli. Yeah. And the thing about it is they're not paying their employees. That's why your favorite restaurant closed. They did that thing where they paid people.

[B]

They paid people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

A couple more things about this. You want to know something infuriating?

[A]

Please.

[B]

There Yellow delis in New York State, like two and a half hours away from me. The closest Pizza Hut classic is three and a half hours in Pennsylvania.

[A]

Here we go.

[B]

Like, why? Yeah, yeah, why? And I also want to say, over the years, my DMs are like on a spectrum. I get DMs about anything and everything. But one of them is from people being like, I think this thing is a cult in my town. Can't wait for you to cover the documentary on it.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

So many people have reached out to me about the yellow deli. Well, we.

[A]

Where I grew up in on Cape Cod there, if you know what it's called, people from Cape Cod, let me know. There is a cafe on Main street in Hyannis, which is little town on Cape Cod, that literally is run by a cult.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I know this because my brother, like, worked there and was in the cult for a while.

[B]

So I've gotten a lot of messages about, like, hey, my soap, my thing. Like, I think there's going to be a documentary on this one day. Like, please cover it. Or I just drove by a yellow deli. I lived near a yellow deli. I just discovered it was a cult. Like, can't. Like, there's definitely going to be a document about the yellow deli. Please cover it.

[A]

Hey, here we are.

[B]

Here we are.

[A]

We've arrived. But like, the young people in the

[D]

cult, all the young people work in the delis 24 hours a day. And that's how they would witness to people.

[A]

Like unsuspecting people. Like you and Mike are walking in just for, like a crispy sandwich, right? And like, you sit down, all of a sudden they're proselytizing to you. And the cafe becomes so important to the cult that over the decades, they open more than 20 locations around the country and then around the world. And, like, as we're going to learn, they are. They're not paying their employees. Now, as a person who was a restaurant worker for decades of my life, I do. I literally don't understand how they get away with this.

[B]

I don't either.

[A]

Because, like, that is 100% illegal. It's against every law of every state. Every single one of these things should have been shut down the day that they.

[B]

I agree. So it's 2013. We're back with Tony. He and his wife Amy actively sought out a cult. They chose this one. So they take their three small kids to the Colorado sect of the cult about 1400 miles away from their home.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they get there and Tony and Amy are blown away. Tony is especially impressed by the choreo.

[A]

I know.

[B]

Can't believe what he's seeing. They're being love bombed right away, within two seconds. We love you. We're so glad you're here. Love, love, Love bomb.

[A]

But, like, right away, it looks like a cult.

[B]

And they're like, love it. Yeah, love it.

[A]

I guess so. Oh, Tony is like. The women were wearing long blouses with dresses underneath them. The men all had the same, like, long hair parted in the middle, tied back into a Ponytail. Everyone is dancing around and clapping. Like, all of these strangers are coming up to them saying, we love you and we're glad that you're here.

[B]

Tony's like, we totally chose the right cult.

[A]

And right. Like, I mean, if you just have that hole in your soul that needs to be filled by a cult, these are. These are your people. A guy named J who comes over and is talking to them, and it's like, what do you think? And they're like, we love it. And he's like, it's not for everybody. But Tony's like, it is definitely for us.

[B]

Yeah, we. We certainly, like, 30 calls.

[A]

We did. For sure. Yeah.

[B]

I was on Google for, like, three hours.

[A]

Totally. This is the cultiest one, like, and

[B]

this is the one that we chose. And again, they didn't know about the child abuse, but they did seek out a cult. There's no other way to say it, so you can get mad at me. I'm not saying they put their kids in this position on purpose. However. Oh, they actively searched for.

[A]

Wait until we get there. I'm sorry. Like, I know that we're supposed to, like, feel bad for, like, the people who did bad things and got out. I don't necessarily. Because Amy, the wife, leans over to him and says, like, Tony, if we do this, I'm not backing out. Amy was not fucking around.

[B]

She wasn't. So they're there for a month. They are fully in the cult. They're baptized.

[E]

The leader said that the Bible talks about giving up everything, and it's great to you to have something much greater. We gave up about $10,000 in cash and basically anything of value that we own. We even gave our wedding rings.

[B]

The cult is like, oh, you're serving God or whatever. No, it's about control and making you destitute. So you can't leave 100%.

[A]

That's all it is. And, like, continuing just, like, to fund, like, the rich people at the top once again. I can't. Like, we've covered so many cult docs, I can't remember which one this reminded me of. But the men are set to work, like, the second they arrive there. So the men work in construction. The women cook and educate the kids, like. And I wrote down the women, cook and educate. You said indoctrinate wrong.

[B]

Well, yes, because. What? It's very clever editing because, like, the women have to do the girly stuff. Yeah, but it's clever editing by the doc because when they say that quote, educate the kids, they cut to a woman and Like a clip of a woman in the cult and she's sitting in a rocking chair on a porch and there are a bunch of kids at her feet. And she says, and I quote, let's sing a song that tells about how big our God is. Couple things. First of all, that sentence barely makes sense. What. What large. But it's not education, it's indoctrination. 100%.

[A]

100%.

[B]

And like we meet Nicole, who's.

[A]

Can we just pause so I can say that? Like, I was raised Catholic. Like my mom, even as a lesbian until like until I was in high school was, I think all kids that are like, it's all indoctrination. You know what I mean? Like any. If you're like telling your kids what to think and then like not giving them an option, like, that's indoctrination.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know?

[B]

Yeah, but like, don't call it education. No, that woman can barely string a fucking sentence together.

[A]

Sure, education.

[B]

But we mean Nicole, she's an advocate for 12 tribes cult members. And she's here to say like, oh yeah, you give up absolutely everything. You work for free.

[A]

And the kids are working. Luke is telling us, I started farming

[D]

when I was 4. They pretty much did away with playing. Everything had to be working. Gene Spriggs was concerned about idle time. We weren't allowed to read books.

[A]

The kids are. Are forced to work. Like they banned play. That to me, that just like broke my heart. Like just knowing how important like imagination is. It is. I mean it just is. Girl. Summer is just around the corner. This is when like hydration is absolutely the most important thing. And my go to for this is Drip Drop.

[B]

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[A]

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Yeah, I used to think that electrolytes were just for elite athletes like me, but no, they are for everybody.

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[B]

So their big recruiting places was the Yellow Deli, obviously, but Grateful Dead concerts, because, remember, this was the seventies.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

So they make this big bus and, like, lure people into the buses to recruit them.

[A]

They welded two buses together. Like, I don't even know how, like, highways can support the weight of a bus like that.

[B]

I mean, they would, like, go and take advantage of these concertgoers who are either, like, young and, or tripping and. Or into counterculture and, or vulnerable and. Or whatever else.

[A]

And all of them at exactly the right age. Like, the kids that are going to the Grateful Dead concerts in the 70s are like, right around the age that Tony was where he was like, I need purpose, right? And the LSD is only going to make you think that you need purpose more.

[B]

They would go to Grateful Dead concerts, but then after the Dead broke up, they would go like, Fish concerts and Bob Dylan, like, that whole kind of

[A]

vibe is my nightmare. Like, I know people love this music, but if I, like, when I was in college, everybody to Fish concerts. And that's the ones where they just jam for, like, you have to be on drugs.

[B]

They like the tapes and everything. And every show is different.

[A]

I just was like, give me a sensible two hour Lilith Fair and call it a day. I cannot stand there and jam with people on LSD for nine hours.

[B]

It's a lot.

[A]

I don't understand. What. I would join a cult too, if I had to do that.

[B]

It's for sure. Yeah, but, like, fans are warning other fans about the big Red Bus. Like, people will get on the bus and go missing.

[A]

Like, that was a TikTok from, like, after Tick Tock was invented. So, like, they're still doing this.

[B]

They're absolutely still doing it. Let me tell You. I was on the cult website today. And again, they're very clear. There is a whole page about how they recruit at concerts. They say we offer cookies and tea, a peaceful place to spend time, free medical care, pulling glass out of people's feet when they got hurt.

[A]

What? Whoa.

[B]

We made so many friends there. And sure enough, some of the seekers found what they were looking for and came home with us to be disciples. They called their people seekers.

[A]

You could literally do that at any mass gathering. At any mass gathering, you're going to find somebody. You're going to find a handful of people who are like, get me on that double wide bus and take me back to the commune or they don't

[B]

know where they are or whatever. Like, we meet this girl, Tammy. Her father was one of these people. She's 22 years old, but her father was recruited at a Grateful Dead concert.

[A]

Yeah. She was born into this cult. And we're going to get Tammy like throughout. But they sent her to England, remember, because this cult is expanding and like they send it. Because the dad is English, they send them to England to sort of like found one of their twelve tribes cults locations there.

[B]

And then he became a quote, leader.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So at 15 years old, Tammy's working at the Yellow Deli nonstop.

[F]

I was, when I started working in Yellow Deli, I was mostly working in the bakery. I was working pretty much full time in the deli. I feel like I learned a lot through it. I learned how to work long hours. To me it just seemed normal. That's how I grew up. That's all I knew.

[B]

I just learned to work really long hours. I thought this was normal.

[A]

She's saying that her mom and her sister are really good bakers. And we see these loaves of bread and I'm like, baking bread is magic. Like, don't. Neither have I. But like when you. When like our friend Robbie will sometimes bake a loaf of bread and bring it over for dinner. When you have a freshly baked loaf of bread delivered to your door, don't take the magic of freshly baked loaves of bread for me.

[B]

Oh, they'll ruin anything. Anything.

[A]

And you know, and like this is what Tammy is doing all day long, just like stuck in the kitchen baking bread.

[B]

Which 15 year old kid. What education is there?

[A]

Right? Exactly.

[B]

So Tony says he was working 24 hour shifts. Like these people were getting work to the bone, making them exhausted and delirious. That is part of the control. We've seen this a million times.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And remember, one is getting paid like, whether you're working at the deli or in construction or maintaining the home or being a, quote, educator, like, no, there's no money being.

[A]

No. And Tony just says, like, you feel like you're numb all the time. And, like, you just said, that is the point. The point is to make it so you can't think, you can't make any decisions. Every. The strange starts to become normal.

[B]

Yeah. And it was also a total patriarchal nightmare.

[A]

Yeah. And of course, also, like, there's a cast system so the leaders don't have to actually do this. So we learned that the leadership tiers are like spray sprigs. The founder and his wife at the top. Then there are the apostolic workers, then the elders, then the household heads and the apostolic workers. And the elders were, like, in charge of everything.

[B]

And they're all men.

[A]

And they're all men.

[B]

And they had, like, the men on these. On this board of directors were all powerful. They controlled absolutely everything. Where you lived, where you worked, how long you worked, what your names would be. We've seen this a million times. They give you a new name to, like, give up your past identity. And they also arrange the marriages.

[D]

They believe that the groom represents Jesus Christ coming back for his pure, spotless bride. She's in the wilderness, and he calls for her, and she comes to meet him in the clouds.

[B]

The groom is Jesus Christ coming back for his, quote, pure, spotless bride. And there's this disgusting clip of a woman saying, quote, little girls are born for a very specific and wonderful purpose. Little girls?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Really?

[A]

And then you see, like, we actually see some of these wedding ceremonies. Women are running out of the forest.

[B]

Everyone's screaming at you.

[A]

Everyone's screaming. People are pretending to be massacred and die, like, killed by the devil.

[B]

Fun.

[A]

This is not the. This is not the wedding planning that I'm used to.

[B]

And also, like, sometimes the couple hated each other, but you did it because this weirdo told you to.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Come on. Yeah, Come on. So you're like. You're just getting screen. Everyone's, like, playing a role. And I'm like, I. I thought weddings were supposed to be happy.

[A]

I know. And, like, Luke is, like, one of our main storytellers, and he. He says. He tells us he wasn't even sure he liked his wife. Now he's here to be like, you know, she's a great mom, and I'm very lucky that she's, like, the mother of my kids. I was trying to understand what Luke. Like, I was looking at everybody's lower third and Luke, it says like born into the 12 tribes. So we don't know at this point if he's still in or if he's gotten out, like if he's here to speak on their behalf or if he's like an ex member like a lot of the other people. But like he says, we learn to love each other and our children. Like we see their wedding and it's just like. Yeah, it's, it's just, it's crazy.

[B]

It's crazy. So speaking of crazy, 1978 Jonestown happens and the 12 tribes cult basically gets run out of Chattanooga because the community hated them anyway. Because they, the cult would always be screaming at everyone about their boys beliefs.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So once Jonestown is all over the

[D]

news, everything changed after that. It started calling us a cult.

[C]

All of this criticism started coming out in Chattanooga. So we started making plans to leave.

[B]

They're run out of town. Cuz everyone's like, yeah, you're a cult and we know you're a cult. Get the hell out of here.

[A]

And they moved to Vermont. And I was like, poor Vermont. I feel like all these cults are always moving to either Vermont or Hawaii. I know there's like not enough room in the state of Vermont for the amount of cults who move there.

[B]

Many cults.

[A]

It does. In fact, fairness to the cults, it does feel like Vermont. Vermont feels like the kind of place where you can go and disappear into the forest and just live however you want.

[B]

In the good way.

[A]

In the good way.

[B]

In like the cool way.

[A]

It's full of like awesome lesbians.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, once again like the bread. Please don't steal Vermont for me. But they buy up half the town. It's a town called Island Pond, Vermont. And I'm like, guess how that went. The town went from 1300 people to quote 300 or 400 Southern hippies. They say we were a fourth of the population. They buy the gas station, they buy the local store, they've got a yellow deli or whatever the hell it's called. And the people who live there are like terrified and upset. Can you imagine like a cult moves like into your town and takes over.

[B]

That's like actively screaming at you.

[A]

That was like that. Well, the least documentary. Remember like they were the Nazis that moved in and they took over the city council because they had the numbers to do that. That is terrifying.

[B]

And they lost and got run out of town. Fuck them.

[A]

Yeah, but that's usually what happens.

[B]

Yeah, usually. But now the violent child abuse starts yeah. And so the cult leader, we just did this with, Andrea Yates, the cult leader essentially is saying, if you really love your kid, you will beat the hell out of them. And if you don't beat them, they will go to hell. And also anyone and everyone can beat your kid for any reason.

[C]

It was severe. It was, we developed some things we call scourging where somebody would be spanked from the soles of their feet all the way to their neck. We went from 0 to 60, 60 in just a matter of a few months. We just started wailing away on the kids.

[B]

And it's going to be severe and it's going to be cruel and we're going to torture the kids.

[A]

Like, we hear these unbelievable stories. Luke, who was like a young kid at the time, tells the story that his mom was like, go down to the well and get some water. And as he's walking down to the well, some random dude is like, hey, go rake that pile of leaves. And he's like, I can't. My mom just told me to come to the well and get a, a, a, a bucket of water. So the guy. Now like, we don't, it doesn't expand on this, but the man says to a very, go into that room and take your pants off.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And like, I guess we're to believe that like the guy just beat the living shit out of Luke. But like you have to imagine that like sexual abuse is running rampant in these cults.

[B]

100%. Well, the parents are also told to like find reasons to beat their children, to quote, force them into alignment. It is truly horrible.

[A]

This is literally the Andrea Yates thing that we just.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And when you think about it from the perspective of the kids, this is when I got really upset and I actually was like, I don't know if I can, can do this. These kids wake up every day thinking, oh my God, what can I do today? Walking on eggshells. Their, their little like nervous systems are a wreck as it is. Cuz all they want to do is stay out of trouble. And they have no idea that like, no, no matter what, their parents are going to set up some situation so that they can then take them into a room. And we're not talking and this is not okay either, but like over the knee, like spank on the butt. This is like, take them into a room, get them naked, take a switch and beat them for hours. Beat them for hours.

[B]

It's, it's unconscionable. And it actually gets to the point people start to leave the Cult.

[A]

I can't believe that a kid was never killed.

[B]

I can't. I.

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[A]

Tony, our main narrator, gets home from work one day and he's told that his son hit his mother and whatever the guy's name is. The head of the cult is like the Bible tells us, if a ch. If a child hits their parent, they get stoned to death.

[B]

But all the kids are being hit, so what are they? It's learned behavior.

[A]

Yes. And so he, like the guy says to Tony, you're going to have to take that rod and beat him all over his body. And if you don't, you're going to to have hell. Tony describes the beating to us in detail here.

[E]

I ended up spanking them all up and down, like from the bottom of his neck all the way down his back with the rod. And he had bleed marks going across his back. And I'm just like in tears through this. The whole time the leader was telling me hard to harder.

[A]

Tony is ashamed to this day to which I say I only have so much sympathy. I'm really sorry and I'm sure that I'm gonna get some shit for this. I'm sure that Tony himself was groomed and indoctrinated. I'm sure that he was. But when you are beating your own kid for hours and you're allowing another adult, you are an adult. You are an adult. You have autonomy. You don't have to do this. So I'm sorry. Like, I had a really, really hard time feeling sorry for the. We have another adult named Roger who describes beating some kid who isn't even his. And a girl, a young girl who

[B]

isn't even his, still feels bad about

[A]

it and he still feels bad about it. And I'm like, I'm sorry, Roger, thank you for being here to tell your story. But I really don't fucking care that you feel bad about this. Like, this is unconscionable. It's unforgivable. In my, in my book.

[B]

It is. It truly is. And that, like, that's the point where they just make. I mean, I'm sure The brow beating of the parents. I'm not justifying.

[A]

Yeah, no.

[B]

Then you look around and you're like, well, my wife is here and this is what I asked for and I don't have any money anymore. And it's either this or being homeless.

[A]

Yes. Literally. Because they've taken all of your possessions.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

They've put you in that position on purpose. But the thing is, we're going to hear more stories from Tony about, like, his kids. Several stories from Tony about his kids being in like, life or death situations. And every time he's like, I had no choice. And I always thought that was. That sentence was going to end with, I had no choice but to disobey the elders. And it never does. It always ends with, I had no choice but to just trust in God, hope that my kids don't die because the elders are saying I can't take my kid to the hospital because if they do, they're going to investigate us all and they might shut down the cult.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like Tony. And these adults are all choosing their, the cult over their kids every single time. And there's just no, you're an adult. There's no excuse for it.

[B]

There's no.

[A]

You're an adult who chose this. Tony, you were not one of those kids that was born into this. You chose this. You, you walked into this on purpose intentionally. You saw what was happening and you stayed.

[B]

And. Yeah, and I mean, people were leaving because it gets to the point where the abuse is so bad that people are leaving and then they're reporting the cult for the abuse. So it's June 22, 1984, in Vermont. The cult has 14 houses. 120 state troopers surround all 14 houses and it's a huge raid. And they take 112 kids. All the kids.

[A]

Now, look, I know there's no good way to do this, but the way the kids are treated in this situation, like, you got to get them out of there. No question. You got to get the kids out of there. However, I don't hear anything about, like, mental health counselors being on site to help the kids.

[B]

They are 1984.

[A]

Right. And they are ripping these kids away from their parents. These kids who don't know that what their parents are doing is wrong. They know they don't like it. They don't know what they're. What they're doing is wrong. And like this, this is traumatizing in and of itself. I understand it has to happen, but like, let's, let's do better.

[B]

Yeah, it doesn't end well. We saw this with Warren Jeffson flds. This happened there too. But here's, here's a major, major problem.

[C]

They had an obligation to do something, but the state could never figure out what everybody's names were because none of the kids had birth certificates, didn't register our births. So finally what they did was they just came with blank search warrants.

[B]

The cult is not registering births on purpose.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So there's no way to track names or parents or anything about these kids. They are completely off the meaning the cops don't even know who or what they're looking for. Exactly. So in order to make moves, the state police show up with blank warrants and then the plan is to fill out the warrants after the fact, after the raid. So they want to take the 112 kids and get them the hell out of there. They arrest these seven elders like fucking losers.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the cult leader is now hiding behind his religious rights and how they're all being persecuted. But this all falls apart in court because the judge is going to be a stickler about the blank search warrant.

[A]

Like this. None. Look, look like regardless of what I'm saying about, like, they needed mental health counselors for the kids, the number one thing is they needed to get those kids out of there. And like, this judge has blood on his hands as far as I'm concerned. Like, there's got to have been something because this judge just throws it out,

[B]

he declares it unconstitutional.

[A]

He's right. And like, I'm sorry, but if we're just breaking the constitution left and right these days, there's got to be a time that you can do it when it's actually the right thing to do and these kids are not safe.

[B]

Like, I understand you can't have a blank search warrant. I know how and why. That's a slippery slope. I get that. But that said, it's not like it was blank because of laziness.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It was blank because of the insanity of the cult. And if you looked at any of these children or spoke to them for two seconds, it's very obvious. Well, something is happening.

[A]

And that's the other thing. Roger, who openly admitted to beating a four year old girl who was not his, is here to say that, like, no, like if they had just actually looked at any of the kids, they would have seen all the signs of abuse. Because what is being said is like, not only is the warrant blank, but there's no signs of abuse on the kids. It's because they didn't look, it's bullshit. They didn't take them to a doctor. These kids are being beaten. Like this documentary takes five minutes to tell us all of the different instruments that these kids are being beaten with. They would have had welts and marks all over their bodies, but they're all wearing long sleeves and long pants to hide it.

[B]

And I'm sure they're not like it's not the 10 year old. Whatever the 10 year old is supposed to be able to do and how they're supposed to speak, I bet they can't do that.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Because they're, they're so developmentally stunted. I guess what I'm trying to say. Yeah, that like, because they're not actually being educated, they have no real life experience. Like a 10 year old is not a 10 year old.

[A]

Right. And now you've got these like parents going to court feeling that they've got the law on their side because this warrant got thrown out. They're demanding that they are saying out loud in court. I've seen cults get away with abusing children because they will use parental rights or religious rights as a excuse to do whatever they're doing. Beating their children is their right as parents. They're being religiously persecuted and that the trouble in America started when people stopped spanking their kids. They are there to fight for their right to beat their kids for nine hours. They're there to fight for the right to beat anybody's kids.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For nine hours.

[B]

And the judge is like, you know what? Hell yeah.

[A]

You know what? Yes.

[B]

So these fucking people end up celebrating the anniversary of the raid every year because it's a holiday to them. Because they feel so validated and all

[A]

the charges are dropped.

[B]

And so they're expanding all over the world. They, they're keeping their members very, very sheltered. Like no Internet, of course, God forbid. They don't want them learning about what the world knows about them or just maybe googling cults or whatever. And now we learn about how part of the control is denying medical treatment because they don't want the doctors to see the abuse.

[A]

I mean, it's just unbelievable. So this is when we get another story from Tony. And Tony tells us a story about his youngest daughter who suffers a serious accident when she falls off the top bunk of a homemade bunk bed that had no railing.

[B]

She's four years old.

[A]

Four years old. And the scene that he describes it is, it's unbelievable. He runs into the room, the mom is holding the kid, the kid is holding her neck.

[E]

I Was saying we need to rush her to the hospital. And they said you cannot go to the hospital. If you take her to the hospital, CPS is going to come in, they're going to find that you've been negligent. They're going to investigate all of us. And they said, you need to trust God.

[A]

You just need to trust God. And this is where Tony says, I just felt like there wasn't even a choice and there was no world in my brain that that sentence wasn't going to end with but to disobey the elders and take my daughter to the hospital.

[B]

My daughter who's screaming in pain also

[A]

and may have broken her neck.

[B]

This is why we need actual education. Who the fuck is putting a four year old on a homemade bunk bed without a rail? Un.

[A]

Unbelievable.

[B]

Are you kidding me?

[A]

Yeah. I mean it's crazy.

[B]

Was it that woman who couldn't string a fucking sentence together?

[A]

Let's sing a song about how big God is.

[B]

I'm like, that was a better sentence than what she said. I can't even recreate the sentence because he's so mind numbingly stupid.

[A]

I know, I know. But he says, I felt that I had no choice but to obey.

[B]

And now like this whole you have to trust God thing. Against all the odds his daughter makes a full recovery. Which is great because obviously we don't want his poor little four year old daughter to suffer. But it's also, also bad because this makes Tony's wife believe in the cult even more. And like as she's just like my God, I love this cult. People all around her are dying of curable ailments or they're dying horrible deaths from cancer because they're being treated with tea and vibrations.

[A]

Tuning forks. I can't believe we've never seen the tuning forks thing before.

[B]

The vibrations are going to cure cancer. Why don't you have some green juice like that idiot.

[A]

Look, if we could once a week take a green juice and throw it at some lady willing a lady out of a cult recovery center.

[B]

And you're talking to someone who believes in the woo woo fucking energy.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Can we not with the vibrations and the tea. When a little four year old is writhing around on the floor screaming in pain. Can we just not?

[A]

I mean it's unbelievable.

[B]

And then when you die of this totally curable ailment, you were either a sinner or you deserved it.

[A]

Because this happens to Luke's mother and, but like. And Luke's mom herself we're told, refuses treatment because she wants to Trust God.

[D]

You know, they prayed for her to be healed from her cancer. Beet juice, comfrey, poultices. And that started getting worse and worse.

[C]

There were several people that prophesied and said, it's done, she's healed. And we believed it. So when she was obviously going in decline, it was shocking.

[A]

And then she dies. And like the everyone is in the tribe was like, wait, I don't understand. You said she was cured. How could she possibly have died? And sprigs, the leader, leader says like, why? Why didn't God hear us? And they decide that there must have been sin in her life that people didn't know.

[B]

So then they villainize the person who died.

[A]

They Salem witch trial is this woman where like Goody Proctor from next door comes over and she was like, I heard her speaking against your authority, especially the practice of beating the children. Which we all love. Right? We all love that.

[B]

Everyone.

[A]

She was the only one who didn't like it. That's why she got cancer and died.

[B]

Tony's wife is like, yep. And that judge who definitely joined love

[A]

the beating of the kids.

[B]

The judge was like, I'm whatever.

[A]

How do I join this cult? Where's the website I'm in? I part my hair down the middle and that ponytail.

[B]

That's exactly right. And also just more proof that there's zero education happening because this is bullshit. Anyone in their right mind would be like, you're lying. This is crazy.

[A]

Yeah. And so remember Tammy? She was the one that was like lived in England. She was born into the cult in England because her dad was English. They met him at a Grateful Dead concert. She's 15 now and like she's experimenting with like regular. It cannot be overstated. And it took until my second watching to fully understand how closed off from the world. Tammy's like 12 tribes cult was like they really were like. It was. What was that M. Night Shyamalan movie where like it was the olden times.

[B]

Oh, the village.

[A]

It felt like the village where Tammy almost didn't know that like an outside world even existed. And she would only get glimpses of it when she would go shopping with her mom and she was getting curious about the outside world and she's starting to like try on like regular like not homemade clothes.

[B]

She's just being a 15 year old girl. That's it.

[A]

Having a 12 year old daughter who is like just at the age where she's learning about like clothes and style and hair and it is such a sweet journey to watch her go on. And it's like such an age of discovery that like Tammy at 15 being told by her family how awful and wrong she is to want to be doing this stuff. It's just so heartbreaking to me. And her dad says to her one day, you look so worldly and you means it as like, not a compliment.

[B]

Yeah, there's something kind of amazing and pure about it that like, even though she's so isolated, she can't help being curious about the world and being, you know, interested in clothes and music and all of these things. It's like she know, like somewhere inside of her, like the soul knows that this is wrong.

[A]

And like, as a parent, it is such a joy to watch your kids start to understand how they want to present themselves to the world and like, what they want to try this. And like Daisy gets the makeup all wrong and her hair looks crazy, but we're like, you're beautiful. And we go to dinner and it's like, it's such a pure, simple time. And for this girl to just being told by her parents how wrong she

[B]

is, like 15 isn't hard enough.

[A]

Exactly. And so Tammy, one day with no plan, she's like, I just have to get the fuck out of here.

[F]

It definitely felt very wrong to me, like I sinned, but like at the same time it felt good. A few hours later, my dad figured out that I was gone and him and my brother found me, picked me up and brought me home.

[A]

Her brothers and her dad hunt her down on the side of the road, throw her into the back of a car, take her back to the commune, and like, she's like, when I was a little kid, I would just get the shit beat out of me for things and like I was absolutely terrified of what was gonna happen to happen. And that's not what they do. Like, they do. I can't say it's even worse because it's all awful. But the dad tells her, because he's like the elder of the cult or whatever, that she now has to repent in front of the entire cult, in front of 40 people. They like throw a Bible at her and she describes to the producer like it was a mix of anger and embarrassment and feeling like a really bad person.

[B]

Yeah. They humiliate her and force her to beg everybody for forgiveness who's just sitting there like stone faced, like making her beg more. And she's 15 year old, is now ostracized.

[A]

They say that she's now a heretic and a sinner. It was like the embodiment of the Scarlet Letter. Nobody in the cult will have anything to do with her. So now she's just like completely alone. Nobody will talk to her. Her own parents won't even look at her. And apparently this, like, making people repent publicly is like a major part of what, like the mantra of all of the tribes.

[B]

Yeah. So when they, they realize that you're like questioning.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

They either humiliate you or they separate you. So sometimes they'll split families up and force you to leave and go to the other side of the world and your family gets to stay or vice versa. So 1994, let's go to the Jerry Springer show, because why not?

[A]

Oh my God.

[B]

And this woman, Lori Johnson, goes on the show and says that she was in the cult and her ex husband kidnapped her kids four and a half years ago. Now remember, these kids are off the grid completely. There's no record of them anyway.

[A]

Right. Like they don't have birth certificates or anything. Like there's. And they have the ability to be moved from tribe to tribe anywhere in the world.

[B]

No one even knows they exist. Like they. There's no record of them. So how are you supposed to find them?

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

I googled this and she was reunited with her kids in 1997. I don't know what happened after that, but we. They just like drop in this little Jerry Spring Springer show. But I looked it up and there was something, and I think it was like the buffalo. Some Buffalo newspaper that said in 1997 she was reunited with her kids.

[A]

Thank God.

[B]

I couldn't find anything after that. So I don't know. But at least like only four years after this or three years.

[A]

This is another way that they keep people from leaving. Because like if you leave and your family doesn't go with you, then like you will literally never see them again.

[B]

Right. And like this is your only connection to them.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Even though you're on the other side of the world or whatever.

[A]

Girl Earn in his back. Look, Earn in is all about letting you have access to the money that you have earned when you want it. And why shouldn't you be able to do that?

[B]

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[A]

Yeah, fam. Earn in is a non Bank Finance app. 5 million people and growing. And the concept is almost annoyingly simple. You earn money, you access it.

[B]

Yeah. It's not a payday loan. This is access to your money. And that's why there's no interest, no credit checks, no mandatory Inventory fees.

[A]

Yeah, look, where was this when I was in my 20s and like working hard all week, but then you get paid every two weeks and you don't have access to like do your laundry or like get groceries. Yes, now you do.

[B]

Exactly. Or you can like treat yourself. Take yourself to the movies.

[A]

100.

[B]

Come on.

[A]

You know what?

[B]

The movies.

[A]

Go to the movies. So download Earn it on the app

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

All right, we got some mandatory disclaimers.

[A]

Lame on us.

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

Treat yourself, everybody.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

So it's 2017 and Tony and his family are sent to Kansas and they're is yet another accident.

[A]

Like, this is insane. It's their first day in Kansas and Tony and his two sons are out. Like they're out farming. He's like, we've never farmed. We didn't know anything about farming.

[B]

So let's put two 14 year olds on a fucking tractor.

[A]

Yeah, they put these kids on a tractor, they like fall off and these kids get wedged between the tractor and a fence post. They're screaming, Tony screaming. One of the elders of this Kansas farm community is screaming at Tony.

[E]

I just remember one of them stopped me, said, you get, get yourself together right now. You're a mess. Your children are seeing this. And I'm like, my children might lose their legs. And he said, so wet. So wet. If they lose their legs, it's God's choice.

[A]

If their legs get crushed and amputated, it's what's God's. And like, I'm like, that's not even what I'm thinking. In this moment, my kids are in the most horrendous pain they've ever experienced. Just ongoing horrendous pain. Crushed between a tractor and a fence post, begging help. Just let them sit here begging, begging

[B]

for help, looking to their parent to help them.

[A]

Yeah. And Tony says to us again to the camera, I still feel like it was wrong not to take them to the hospital. Like, they get the kids out eventually and Tony still doesn't take them to the hospital. And I just, once again, Tony, you chose this in 2013, as a full grown adult, you, like, you looked at the information and you decided to do this.

[B]

Yeah, not this information about the lack of medical whatever, but like, they did look for this off the grid commune.

[A]

It's one thing for people who are born into this cult and don't literally know anything different. But, Tony, you know the world. You know the, you know the right thing to do is to take your daughter with a broken neck to the fucking hospital.

[B]

Like, why do you think they want ten grand in cash, right? Why do you think all of your valuables are handed over to them? Why?

[A]

I know it's not my experience and I know it's not, like, it's not a fair comparison, but, like, there is nothing in the world I wouldn't do for my kid. Nothing. Yeah, nothing. I just, I think of the most extreme consequence to me in my life, and I would do that if my kid needed to go to the hospital, you know? And I just, I just don't get it. I just, I don't get it.

[B]

So this was Tony's last straw. He wants to leave and his wife is refusing. So let's put a pin in that because Now Tammy is 17. She's working at the Yellow deli.

[A]

She's the one in England.

[B]

She's using the meat grinder.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Now the meat grinder. I really want to slow down on this for a second. The meat grinder gets stuck and I

[F]

decided to start using my hand. I was like pushing it flat on top and then my. My hand just like went down into the hole. Before I realized what was happening, it was too late.

[B]

And Tammy sticks her hand into it and it is so bad that they actually do bring her to the hospital.

[A]

Yes. And I was thinking, like, how bad? I mean, like, why this time?

[B]

But I just want to say, like, this is why. Kids need education. What are we doing? Not just book education, but experiences out in the world. They need to know to not stick their hand in a meat grinder, literally. And Tammy, I'm not blaming her, but I'm just saying, like, they're not even educated, educating the free labor accurately. They're not even saying to Tammy, like, hey, we're working 24 hours a day and you're not going to get, you know, we're going to fool you, whatever.

[A]

When I was a kid, I worked at a grocery store and I would sometimes work in the meat department. And you could not, you could not handle the meat slicer until you were 18 years old. And if you even looked at it funny if you even tried to clean it, you'd get in trouble, right? Also, like working 24 hour shifts, she's exhausted. She probably's got a quota. She's like grinding salmon. Like, she probably has a quota. She has to meet her. She gets fucking beat for five hours.

[B]

Grinding salmon. Is that a. That might be a thing that I don't know about, but yeah.

[A]

I don't know what you would be grinding salmon for, but yeah, I mean,

[B]

maybe just like 50,000 salmon cakes, I guess.

[A]

I guess.

[B]

Are they allowed to have salmon cakes?

[A]

I don't know. I don't know. It was just absolutely awful. And she gets taken to the hospital and she wakes up and she like, sees her parents over her bed and her first question is like, do I still have my fingers?

[B]

And she could have, but they chose not to give her the help or get her a prosthetic so she can, like, live with her. What? That. The fact that God hates her.

[A]

So, like at the hospital they amputate her fingers and her thumb, then they send her home and she's living alone, like in a room. Remember, she's completely ostracized from the community because she ran away two years ago, so nobody's talking to her anyway.

[F]

The first few weeks I did have pain meds, but after that I was freaking out because I was in so much pain. It's hard to think straight. I wasn't allowed to talk to any of my friends. I wasn't allowed to leave.

[A]

The torture is graduating. Oh, sure, it starts with the taking her off pain meds and like, making her live in that excruciating pain in a room where nobody will talk to her. And if she wants to leave the room to go to the bathroom, her parents have to take her, right? And then, then she's denied the prosthetic because the elders of the community want her to be a constant reminder that this was her punishment for running away two years ago.

[B]

Unbelievable.

[A]

Unbelievable.

[B]

So back with Tony, the tractor accident was Tony's last straw. So he wants to leave, but his wife refuses. And Tony expl to us that he is staying because he doesn't want to leave his family. So it's now 2020, Tony's been in the cult for seven years. And the elders, you fucking losers, elders call him in and they're like, hey, Tony, real quick, you're going to be separated from your family. So you're going to go to one community and they're going to be in another. And just this is what God wants. Like, don't question it and we're going to separate you.

[A]

Tony says, he says that he screamed in their faces. You've proven to me over and over again that you are not the true people of God. There is no way I can could see past it. And then they kick him out. He's like, I got to go. They're like, you need to leave tonight. He has no money, no car. They give him $10 and like a beat up van they said would be lucky to get him 35 miles and he's out. And his wife is like by his wife was like, we are staying, we are not coming with you.

[B]

And so Tony's plan is he knows he's going to be homeless and he doesn't want his family to go through that. So he, his plan is to get back on his feet and then go back to get his family. And he tells his wife the plan and she's like, I mean that's fine, but if you come back, just know that I'm not leaving with you. So like don't do any of this for me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I'm going to keep the kids and we're going to be here. But like if you want to get on feet, like I guess that's fine. No love lost.

[A]

And like there are I guess people out in the world that he knows.

[E]

I ended up remembering that there's a guy who had left that was running a construction company. So I called him and asked him for a job. I ended up getting work. And also another man that had left had a place that he could rent me a two bedroom apartment that him and I would share.

[A]

I guess I'm glad that there are people who left but stayed local and were able to sort of help him in this way.

[B]

I'd also really love to know about the church that where he met his wife. Yeah, they didn't tell us about it. I, I don't want to say because I would be speculating wildly, but I just like if you look at the context clue, they show one photo and the, the context clues just sort of make it seem like it's pretty cult adjacent to begin with. So I just want, I, I'm just curious about like where exactly they met because it took Amy no time at all to be totally 100% she said

[A]

to Tony on day one, like when they drove out that 1400 miles, like if we do this, I am all in forever.

[B]

So I don't know like protecting Amy at all in any of this, but I wonder if she was the driving force we don't know anything about that. But she's super in. Like, she doesn't give a shit about her kids.

[F]

I mean.

[A]

And then we're back to Luke. He was the one that was born into the cold, and he was like, over the years, all of his siblings were separated from him. So, like, they are separating these families in a way. I can't. I can't imagine that. And, like, the dad. After the mom died, like, they blamed the dad for, like. Like, God didn't hear the prayers because you weren't a good enough husband. Now the dad has lost all his of. Of his authority. Luke finally gets out after 10 years, and he's like, I have to go. And, like, he. He takes his kids. That was, like, the best part. His wife isn't sure that she wants to leave, so she stays.

[B]

And he's like, you can say, but I'm. I'm taking myself and our children.

[A]

He says, like, if you want to come and join us, great. But, like, I'm taking the kids and getting out. Which, like, that was, like, for being the first male born into this cult. For him to be strong enough to be like, I've got to get out of here. Was kind of an amazing thing to hear. Like, it can be done.

[B]

And she joined him two weeks later.

[A]

Yes. And we see a picture of them, and I was like, okay. They actually do seem. Remember, like, when they got married, he was kind of like, I don't really know about her, and we don't ever hear her take on him, which I'm sure wasn't.

[B]

They definitely didn't choose, but, like, it's one of those things where they were in the trenches together. They'll never understand it. This is what they have now, but

[A]

they're still so young.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, Luke looks like he's in his

[B]

mid-30s, but, like, they don't really. They would not have picked each other.

[A]

No. But, like, it also kind of feels like no one is ever going to understand their experience. But the other.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And they seem happy. Like, he's says nothing but the nicest things about her.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It was just the getting into the marriage that seemed a little rocky.

[B]

So Tony's been kicked out, and he's trying to get on his feet so he can save his family. But the cult is playing chess, not checkers.

[E]

I called up a leader in Kansas who had given me his cell number, and I said, hey, I have this feeling that my family is not there. Is my family still there? And immediately got no. And I said, where are they? I want to know right now, where's my family?

[B]

And the cult moves his family to another location. They are literally not in Kansas anymore, which is where Tony is.

[A]

How did I miss that?

[B]

His family was in Kansas. They're not in anymore, and Tony is there. And now Tony teams up with Nicole, who's the advocate for former members of this cult. She's not, like, a cult expert. She's an expert on this cult.

[A]

Yeah. And she's kind of here to, like, let us know, like, how fucked Tony kind of is because, like, they moved the family to California, which has very strict laws and is also another state, and it's going to make it, like, very difficult to. For Tony didn't take any action here.

[B]

Yeah, there's, like, custody issues and kids are being moved across state lines, and

[A]

he doesn't have any money.

[B]

And everyone's off the grid. There's no birth certificates. Like, it's all a mess. So September 2023, Tony gets a call that two of his sons are being kicked out of the cult because they didn't fix their headbands correctly. There's been a headband infraction.

[A]

Yeah. These are the two boys, by the way, that fell off the tractor and almost got their legs taken off.

[B]

So they're acting out major. I mean, and they should. But they call the. I'm shocked that, like, the cult is pretty okay with kicking people out at all.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But they. Tony's like, a headband infraction. Whatever. I'll fudgeing take it. Like, great. I just want to see my kids again.

[A]

I'm surprised because I've heard of these cults were like, I'm surprised they took the care to call Tony. That they didn't just, like, drive the kids up into the mountains and say, like, good luck, boys. You're on your own now.

[B]

Right. Because they're, like, being rebellious and disrespectful. Again, headband.

[A]

And, like, these kids are pretty. Like, they're pretty traumatized. Like, Tony is saying, one of them is, like, super angry all the time. The other one barely talks.

[B]

Well, they're were put in what they call, quote, solitary confinement. Six months, one of them three and a half and one for seven months. Like, it's just. It's torture.

[A]

It's like, if this documentary exists, how are the cops not all over this?

[B]

I know. So. But, like, now that they're home, their names are Baruch and John Daniel. And so Baruch is very angry and very gruff, and John Daniel, like, doesn't talk much. All Trauma responses. And then he gets a letter from his 15 year old daughter saying that she wants to leave.

[A]

Yeah. And this is like, this is diabolical.

[B]

And she's writing in capital letters, like, I will be in big trouble. Like, please don't even write me back. I'm just letting you know, like, will you please teach me how to drive when I come home? Like, she wants out big time.

[A]

Yeah. And so like we learned that he's super excited. He's got the address of where they are in California.

[E]

I eventually ended up getting a letter from my wife saying that the leaders found out Ahava was thinking of leaving. And Ahava is not the same person, person anymore. She got baptized again and has given up all those evil desires.

[A]

She's been baptized and has given up all those evil desires. And the sons are like, dad, don't believe we got to go there. Like, don't believe this. It's not true.

[B]

So it's called the Morningstar Ranch. Tony goes in person, he drives her right up to the cult and he can't bring the cameras due to all the laws, but he then tells People magazine and us what happened.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So he goes up to the cult and as soon as they were on the property, these two men approached them. Tony goes, I don't know, I didn't know this guy. One of them was. And. And basically nothing happens. Like, Tony didn't find his wife or his kids. And the two guys acted like they didn't even understand the words coming out of Tony's mouth.

[A]

And there's some talk that like, the daughter is going to call him the next day. And the next day he gets a call and it's from Amy, his wife, and she's doubling down. Ahava will not see you or her brother. She doesn't want to see them at all. The only way that you will ever see your daughter again is if you come back to the cult. And like, Tony is sobbing. And it's like this whole thing just made me crazy. We're watching, watching video of like Tony sobbing and having to be comforted by his traumatized sons. I was like, can everybody get into therapy like yesterday?

[B]

Because the sons are like, I like, the sons are saying, we need our sister to tell us to our faces that she wants to be in the cult and the mom won't let that happen. And I'm just thinking, like, where do they have her? Locked up somewhere, this poor 15 year

[A]

old girl and like, probably beating the living shit out of her every single day. That's what they do.

[B]

And it's like, is there any judge watching who can, like, make a better search warrant? Now?

[A]

I know.

[B]

Can we just, like.

[A]

Her name is Ahava. I know it.

[B]

Do we know what we're looking for now? Can we just, like, not use a blank sear? Can we use a real one?

[A]

I'm like, back in England, like, Tammy, she. Her and her family moved to North Carolina where her mother has family. The mom's sister at one point was visiting and had slipped Tammy her number and was like, if you ever need anything, call me at 20. Tammy's like, can I come live with you? And they staged this escape where this is kind of like the aunt comes to the Yellow Cafe for, like, lunch or whatever, and remember Tammy's like, the bad girl.

[F]

When they finished eating and we're leaving, I told the people I worked with that I was gonna go out and say bye to my aunt. And they were like, is that fine to go and say bye to her? And I'm like, it's never been a problem before. I ran out the back of the Yellow deli, jumped in the car, and we drove off.

[A]

I'm gonna go say goodbye to my aunt. Jumps in the car and takes off in the reenactment. They have this reenactment actress playing Tammy, and she had to have her hand that had all the fingers amputated, slipped inside. Apron.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But she gets out. She gets out, and she's living with her aunt. And so far, so Good.

[B]

Yeah. She's 22. She's talking about her experience on social media. She's in college. She's studying graphic design. Like, Tammy got the hell out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So back with Tony, he calls for a welfare check, and he calls 911 and tells him about the cult. So the cops show up. This is fucking great. Someone pretends to be Tony's daughter. The imposter says everything is all good. The cops turn around and go home. Thank you again for nothing. So it turns out his daughter is actually not in California anymore. Like, now she's in Alaska in this very, very remote location. Because know Tony's onto them, and it's

[A]

a punishment they want to like because they know she wrote the letter. They're, like, putting her in the most far flung place they can send her.

[B]

And I'm just, like, sitting here, I'm like, doesn't he have any rights as her father? Her mother is refusing him access. His child has been moved across multiple state lines. And I'm like, how many abusers have we heard about who still get to see their kids because there's such a breakdown between the criminal court and family court. Does it ever work out in a good way or is it just the abuse?

[A]

One point, the advocate did say that, like, he has no money and there was no. Nobody would take the pro bono work for them either. So I wonder if that's part of it. But it's like, once again, how do these parents have absolutely no rights?

[B]

I don't understand because we've seen it a million times. It just always works out for the abuser.

[A]

Right. Right. Yeah.

[B]

Never sort of leans in the favor of anyone else who's suffering. It's just like always, the abusers get to win.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I don't understand why nothing can be done about this. Like, he's a father.

[A]

Right. We have the evidence that his daughter wrote to him being like, I'm trying to escape. Please don't respond. I'm going to get in super big trouble. Doesn't that seem worthy of investigating?

[B]

And what are those fucking useless cops being like, oh, okay. But everything's cool here. Cool.

[A]

We saw this in Don't Date Brandon too, that it's like once they move state lines, it's like, well, the. The cops from California, I guess, aren't going to go to Alaska. And the cops from Alaska don't have any evidence that there's been a crime committed. So, like.

[B]

And the cult knows that.

[A]

That's what I'm saying. Like, we've made it so easy for the abuser, you know?

[B]

Yeah. Even when there are documentaries made about them. Yeah. Like right now. So as we're wrapping up, we get, like, sort of updates on everyone. So Tammy is expected to earn her degree in graphic design in 2027.

[A]

Luke lives with his family in Virginia. And is Jo free from the tribes?

[B]

Thank God Tony and his sons hope to one day be reunited with the rest of their family. So Tony and two of his sons are together, but he still has four children who are out in the world and being abused by this cult.

[A]

Jean Spraggs, the founder, died in 2021. The 12 tribes live on, they said, with an estimated worldwide membership of 4,000. That doesn't seem like that much. It's not that many Allegations of abuse and exploitation are ongoing. And guess what? The cult did not respond to requests for comment.

[B]

Shocking.

[A]

Oh, my God, girl. We did. People magazine investigates the secret of the 12 tribes cult. That was awful.

[B]

There should be there. No more secrets.

[A]

I know.

[B]

Let's get to it.

[A]

No more secrets. And I'm like, Do I have a new least favorite cult now?

[B]

Like, let's just get on top of this and get it. You know what I mean? Like, could something be done? Thank you so much, People magazine. God, fam.

[A]

Don't forget to join the Facebook group and the Discord. There's links to both in the show notes. What are we doing next? Girl, we're to going.

[B]

Going back to Trainwreck for you. Oh, we are doing Trainwreck, the real Project X. It's on Netflix.

[A]

Okay. This is the only one I haven't watched. Is it good?

[B]

It's kind of crazy. Like really? It's kind of nuts. No one gets killed.

[A]

Okay, well, that's good.

[B]

I'll tell you that.

[A]

And there's no poop.

[B]

I don't think so.

[A]

Okay. You have to think about it, though.

[B]

Not in like a poop cruisy way. No, I'm pretty Sure.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I'm 99.9. She's not positive.

[A]

Fab. She's pretty sure, but she's not positive.

[B]

Cause this'll be the day. I know where I'm like 100% no poop. I swear to God. And then like, there's one poop story I don't. Yeah, it's not poop cruise level.

[A]

We won't hold you to it.

[B]

I'm very, very close to being 100%

[A]

positive, but in this line of work, you really.

[B]

This is what I'm saying.

[A]

All right. We love you. Stay tuned for the trailer for that and we'll see you soon.

[B]

We love you. Stay safe, please. All right, Bye bye.

[A]

It was Friday night. We are pumped up to go to the party. We're going to the biggest birthday party in the history in the Netherlands.

[E]

The strangest thing was in like this small town.

[A]

It was the first time I heard from this place. Hagen.

[B]

A Facebook invitation to a girl's 16th birthday party went viral. The girl had posted a message inviting her friends, but forgotten not the event as private. All I wanted was just to have a good 16th birthday. But it really got a bit out of control.

[C]

Some of my friends said it might

[A]

be turning into a Project X party.