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Jillian Betavali
I know this is coming out in the spring, but, like, we've finally had a day with no snow here in New York. It's February. We're in the wayback machine, fam.
Patrick Hines
It's true. We're at the end of February. March is coming.
Jillian Betavali
Yeah.
Patrick Hines
So I guess we'll see what March brings.
Jillian Betavali
We'll see. Hi. Jillian Betavali. Hello.
Patrick Hines
Patrick Hines.
Jillian Betavali
What are we talking about today?
Patrick Hines
Welcome to the bonus episodes, everybody. Happy Thursday. We're also recording this on a Thursday. So that's something that is similar to the thing. Yeah, this is our third bonus episode. It's that series Deadly Influence, Season 1, Episode 2. This is called TikTok Terror, which I think is a terrible name for what this is.
Jillian Betavali
That's the thing. When we get these episodes that are well done, but, like, they have to do the salacious title, we don't appreciate it. What is this? I know. Do you think the world is still going to be here in April?
Patrick Hines
I don't know. That's a really good question.
Jillian Betavali
We really, like. We should make these just in case.
Patrick Hines
Just in case.
Jillian Betavali
You know what I mean?
Sidra
Sonya was a burst of sunshine and positive energy, man. It was infectious.
Patrick Hines
She was bold and funny. Everyone felt like her friend because everyone was.
Friend 1
I can't talk right now.
Patrick Hines
I'm doing Hot girl.
Friend 2
She was proud to be a Pakistani woman. She was very proud of how she modernized her culture.
Friend 3
She made a lot of women feel safe, seen and heard. But being a Pakistani Muslim influencer online, it can get very toxic very quickly. Harassment, bullying, death threats, possibility of online threats. Stepping over to real life is actually very real.
Friend 1
There was only positives until she had that day where her own life was actually at risk.
Jillian Betavali
All right, so our victim's name is Sania Khan. She is a Pakistani woman growing up in the United States. And I said, oh, my God, she's of my generation. She was a MySpace girly, because they're
Patrick Hines
saying that she loves social media. And I saw, like, the quick MySpace thing, and I was like, oh, shit. MySpace. Shout out.
Jillian Betavali
Were you on MySpace?
Patrick Hines
Barely.
Jillian Betavali
Me too, barely. Actually, I met Steve on MySpace.
Patrick Hines
Really?
Jillian Betavali
Yeah. We met on MySpace, but it was. Can you believe, like, the kids don't even know what that is. Wow, how far we've come.
Patrick Hines
It's. I mean, there. I remember that was, like, really big. You could have, like, music on your page. There was like a whole five or top eight or whatever, which was a thing.
Jillian Betavali
Fam. Imagine this. You would have to rank your friends. People would go to your MySpace page and then, like, you would see the top five. Like you would. And I remember getting into fights with people and moving them around.
Patrick Hines
It was, like, at random. It was like a first at random, and then I think you pick. And then that guy Tom was always in there.
Jillian Betavali
Oh, God, the founder. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, she loved MySpace. That's where she got started. We meet her friend Sidra.
Patrick Hines
All of Sonya's friends are fucking awesome.
Jillian Betavali
They're amazing.
Patrick Hines
Sidra met Sonya in the early 2000s. They were like 9 or 10 years old, and they met at a big party on New Year's Eve. And Sidra was talking to her cousin, and Sonya just, like, jumped right into her life. Like, hi, I'm Sania Khan. And Sidra goes. True Sana Khan style.
Jillian Betavali
I love that. Bring that energy whenever you meet me at a party.
Patrick Hines
Yes.
Jillian Betavali
Come jump into the conversation and say, hi. Give me your name.
Patrick Hines
I love it so much.
Jillian Betavali
Me too. They all live in Chattanooga, Tennessee. There's a big Muslim community there that's a major part of, like, what this episode is about. And Sidra tells us that the Muslim community there is very conservative.
Sidra
We tried to be achiba cheese. Right. Which means good girls, respect your elders. Biggest thing, dressing modestly. We don't bring shame to our families. We want to be assimilated into the American community, but our parents did not understand the culture. And so I think Sania definitely struggled with that all her life.
Patrick Hines
Being Pakistani American, they had two different identities, and she says that they're oftentimes in conflicts with each other.
Jillian Betavali
Yeah.
Patrick Hines
I want to give a note here that Sidra speaks Urdu a lot as a way to infuse their culture into the telling of the story. I think it's very, very cool. She'll say the word or phrase in Urdu and then in English. So it's like a verbal aka it's very verbal, like blank slash, blank. I think it's awesome.
Jillian Betavali
Well, because she says the Urdu words for good girls. Like, they tried to be good girls. They tried to respect their elders. Lots of rules.
Patrick Hines
Lots of rules.
Jillian Betavali
Too many rules as far as I'm concerned. And, like, I guess I can say it here, but I'm going to say it all the way throughout. Like, your fudgeing kids be who they are.
Patrick Hines
I think it's ridiculous because the whole thing is like, don't bring shame to your families. I'm like, shame is relative. It's so.
Jillian Betavali
But it's. It's okay for one mother to do it, but not another. Like, it makes me insane.
Patrick Hines
But, like, not Everyone agrees on what is shameful. It's all of these, like, expectations and rules that apply to one faction of people and forcing it on like the new up and coming generation.
Jillian Betavali
Yep. And nobody can live up to it. It makes everybody sad and angry and depressed and it makes all the kids lie to their. It makes me crazy.
Patrick Hines
Me too. And no matter what they do, they're going to fail.
Jillian Betavali
Exactly.
Patrick Hines
The goalposts will always be moved.
Jillian Betavali
And I understand, I really get it, that it's a. They love their kids. You know what I mean? They want the best for their kids. They want the. They want the amer. What they think of as the American dream for their kids. I understand it comes from a place of love, but like, I guess for me it's just like being a gay kid who was allowed to be out in the 90s and be who I was and express myself. Like, I can't. And I think about this a lot. The kind of person, and I have friends whose experience this was, who could not be out, had to pretend to be straight to like, in their minds, keep the love of their parents. And it really fucks people up.
Patrick Hines
Of course, it's super damaging.
Jillian Betavali
Crazy.
Patrick Hines
So Sidra says that as young girls they wanted to be assimilated into the American community, but the parents and the elders were not into that at all. So it's one of those situations where they didn't understand the culture, so they just rejected it.
Jillian Betavali
And so the kids are trying to live in both world. Like they love their parents, they want to please their parents, but they also want to live their lives. They're going to school with a bunch of American kids. They want to be like their friends
Patrick Hines
here in Chattanooga, Tennessee, we're going to like live the life here. But the parents wanted to live there, but not let them experience it.
Jillian Betavali
Yes, we meet Grant. I love Grant. He and Sonya met in homeroom in ninth grade.
Patrick Hines
So cute.
Jillian Betavali
I know homeroom. I want to know more about Grant.
Patrick Hines
Yeah, like what?
Jillian Betavali
Does he have a boyfriend or a girlfriend? Yeah, we don't get an answer to that question. What is Grant? It's not my business. I understand. I don't have a right to know, but he's just seems like the sweetest guy and, you know, if he's like a straight guy and he's got a girl best friend, I love it. I think it's more likely not that, but who knows?
Patrick Hines
I was stuck in homeroom. I thought that was the cutest thing. I was like, homeroom. When was the last time you heard that? I know, but Grant says they had a very creative connection. They were photographers. They took photograph photos of each other, and they were, like, working through that, like, really, like, creative phase in high school. And Grant. It's not a phase, honestly. But Grant echoes that.
Grant
Sonya's relationship with her mother and father was strained and confusing, at least from my perspective as a white teenage boy. They had certain expectations placed on her that didn't mesh with the culture she was exposed to at our school.
Patrick Hines
Strained and confusing.
Jillian Betavali
Well, and that's interesting for him to say because he's the only non Muslim friend of hers that we meet, because
Patrick Hines
he says, like, that's my perspective as a white boy. He literally says like a white teenage boy.
Jillian Betavali
Yes, yes. And he loves Sonya a lot.
Patrick Hines
Yeah. And that's hard when your friend is thriving or trying to thrive and be who they are. Like, she's an incredible photographer.
Jillian Betavali
Yes.
Patrick Hines
And she's finding that out about herself and, like, learning about herself. And yet she can't be proud of it or really talk about it freely. Except with Grant, you know, it's still, like, a secret in some way because it'll be, like, disappointing.
Jillian Betavali
Yes. And it's not even just her family. Like, it's the whole community.
Patrick Hines
Yeah. Yeah.
Jillian Betavali
It just feels so oppressive to me. It just makes me so upset. Girl, our place is back. Look, this is all about that amazing nonstick cookware without any of those forever chemicals.
Patrick Hines
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Jillian Betavali
Yes. It's also so affordable. The four piece cookware set saves you $150 over buying all of the pieces individually.
Patrick Hines
Remember when it used to be like, hey, here's an 18 piece pots and pan set. That's a million dollars and you're not going to use half of them. No, we're doing this four piece cookware set.
Jillian Betavali
No. And like, we love our place in our house. We had, like, the same pots and pans that we used forever. We made the swish. It is so amazing. We know that we're, like, feeding, like, us and our child, like, stuff that isn't toxic and harmful for them, which, like, you got to get that stuff out of your kitchen.
Patrick Hines
Yeah. And also about things in the kitchen. This wonder oven that I have to mention every single time because it's revolutionary. It's an air fryer and toaster. It's sold out eight times.
Jillian Betavali
Oh my God.
Patrick Hines
From stainless steel and glass and it has like eco friendly, high performance cooking experience. It's really, you can do absolutely anything
Jillian Betavali
and I know you really do love it.
Patrick Hines
I do love it. I love crispy things. Air fryers make things crispy and they're pretty.
Jillian Betavali
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Patrick Hines
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Jillian Betavali
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Patrick Hines
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Jillian Betavali
You know the cookware and the oven.
Patrick Hines
I know. And the no risk.
Jillian Betavali
Exactly. So Sonia goes to college and in her freshman year she meets a guy named Robert and they start dating. They loved each other. He was a white guy. There's a lot of like stigma from her family about this relationship. But she, like all of her friends are describing him as like her first real great love. Also, like, we're going to learn that Sonya was like a true romantic and the fact that she has this like first, like it's such a big deal
Patrick Hines
in her life and it's just so like stressful and anxiety inducing to live a life where you have to hide something from two of two very important people in your life. Like Sonia was so conflicted because as her friends are telling us, like she wanted her parents to be proud of her and she's not doing anything wrong. No, she's in love and she's creative and like that is causing her stress and anxiety and that's sucks and like,
Jillian Betavali
you know, so many of us know that, that feeling of like loving somebody and wanting your parents to love that person too. You know, I remember the first time I showed my mom a picture of Steve. Really the first thing my mom gorgeous was my mom. It was a headshot back from when he was an actor. It was a black and white headshot. Yeah, it was wild. It was a very cute. He had a very cute spiky little lesbian haircut.
Patrick Hines
You know, it was. Was it a button down? Was it casual?
Jillian Betavali
I'm trying.
Patrick Hines
I have it like the fun headshot or like the serious.
Jillian Betavali
It was somewhere in the middle. He looks really cute in it.
Patrick Hines
I' sure. I'm not, I'm not doubting that.
Jillian Betavali
Yeah, yeah.
Patrick Hines
Was it like the, oh, I have personality or was it like I'm very.
Jillian Betavali
It was more personality. It was definitely more personality.
Patrick Hines
That's so funny.
Jillian Betavali
I forgot that he used to be an actor.
Patrick Hines
Really?
Jillian Betavali
Like, it's been so long.
Patrick Hines
Yeah.
Jillian Betavali
You know what I mean? And I never really knew him as an actor because, like, he was an actor in D.C. and he did it for 10 years, and he was, like, on the national tour of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, performed at the White House. I know he was nominated for a Helen Hayes Award, but I never knew him as an actor.
Friend 2
Which White House?
Jillian Betavali
The Bush. Which is funny, because when I first met him and I saw pictures of him performing at the White House, I thought he was a Republican. I was like, oh. But I went on the date. I was like, well, let's see how this goes. And it was not that he just performed at the White House.
Patrick Hines
It was different then.
Jillian Betavali
Well, he performed for Michelle Obama's best
Patrick Hines
friend forced to be president. Yeah, he's a war criminal. But he was our war criminal.
Jillian Betavali
He was our war criminal.
Patrick Hines
Here's the deal. Sonia's parents get divorced. They weren't, like, quote, supposed to in this culture. You know how I feel about religion and divorce. Fucking get divorced. Please don't murder anyone. Don't oppress anyone. Like, we did this in Mr. And Mrs. Murder.
Jillian Betavali
Yes.
Patrick Hines
I'd rather, like, commit murder than get divorced. It makes me crazy. But when Saadi's in college, they get divorced, and it takes a toll on the family. And Sidra, her awesome friend, is here
Sidra
to be like, when it comes to South Asian family norms, we're really good at keeping the facade alive of a happy marriage. But when things go sour, they go down sour real quick. She got to see the other side of the Chattanooga Muslim community. Her mother was ostracized, shunned for initiating the divorce.
Jillian Betavali
We learned that Sonya's mother was ostracized by the community because she was the one who initiated the divorce. But here's my thing. Sonia's mom, why is it okay for you to live your. Now, listen, I've got a lot of questions about the dad. Was this an abusive relationship?
Patrick Hines
No. No.
Jillian Betavali
I'm so glad that for whatever the reason is, the mom got out. I. I'm very happy for her for that. But why is it okay for her mother to get to, like, live her truth and her mother to do the thing that's right for her, but it's not. It's not okay for Sonya to do it.
Patrick Hines
I totally agree.
Jillian Betavali
For me, it's like Sonya's mother understands that, like, the system doesn't always work, that this whole, like, you, like, we are going to be told that in their community, you stay married no matter what.
Patrick Hines
Yeah.
Jillian Betavali
Sonya's mother understands that there are cases in which that that is not true because she lived through it.
Patrick Hines
And it's also just how they're treating women.
Jillian Betavali
Yes.
Patrick Hines
Like, because Sonia resents how her mother was treated not just by the community, but by her father.
Jillian Betavali
Yes.
Patrick Hines
We're told he took a, quote, authoritarian approach to the situation. Meaning what?
Jillian Betavali
Well, and that's right. Like, I wish we had more information on that, but we don't. And this also damages Sonia's relationship with her dad. Like, she lives with her mother when she's home from school or whatever, sees the dad occasionally, but there's like a fracture in that relationship too.
Patrick Hines
Yeah. So we meet Hira, who's an influencer. She goes by supportive South Asian cis, and she says that a lot of South Asian parents push certain careers on their children so they'll be set up for the future.
Friend 3
Like most immigrant communities, Pakistani communities, you have to become a doctor or a lawyer or an engineer, because those are careers that will make you more stable in life. Sonia actually did do as her parents wished and she went to UTC and pursued a education in psychology.
Patrick Hines
I thought it was cool that once she like had a passion and followed it, end of story. Like, that's what she's going to do. But I thought maybe psychology was a little bit, a way to give her parents like a little bit of a bone, but kind of not really. Like, it's still like, I'm still studying science. Like, I can still be a doctor of this thing, but I'm also going to take beautiful photos.
Jillian Betavali
And that's my other thing about photography is I am the worst photo. Like, I cannot take good pictures on my iPhone. I told you this. I think I took a photography class in college with a camera that self focused and my pictures were still blurry. Like, I am, I am that bad at taking. I'm like the guy in that episode that we did forever ago when they're hearing this. But like last week where they. He took the Polaroid of that. Oh yeah, that dolly in prison. And like it's half in the picture. Like you can't see anything in it.
Patrick Hines
I'm the person who sees like, oh, filmed on an iPhone, taken on an iPhone. I'm like, which iPhone? I know I can never. It's always telling me to clean my camera lens. Do you get that message? Stop yelling at me.
Jillian Betavali
You guys. Leave her alone.
Patrick Hines
I'm like, I did.
Jillian Betavali
I know. I just, I don't know what is wrong with me that I cannot take a good picture. Like, no, I agree.
Patrick Hines
It'll look good when I'm saying, like, me. Like, I. Me too.
Jillian Betavali
I just don't. So the fact that Sonya was not just, like, great at this, she was, like, beyond great at this is like a magical. It's like. It's like a skill I could never have.
Patrick Hines
Right.
Jillian Betavali
And she's the same as being an engineer.
Patrick Hines
She has, like, the eye for it and she. The passion for it. And so, like. But the thing about being a photographer is that this wasn't, like, quote, normal,
Sidra
and that's not normal. She didn't care. She didn't let Lo Kia Keenge. What are people gonna say?
Patrick Hines
Dictate that Sonya didn't care what people were gonna say, which I'm sure was, like, hammered into her her entire life.
Jillian Betavali
Yeah, I mean, like, you're talking to two people who, like, make a living making a podcast. What, Like a ridiculous idea of a thing to do.
Patrick Hines
I've always been, oh. Oh, really? Oh, like, about anything I've ever done in any creative space, it's always like,
Jillian Betavali
oh, it's so funn. When we first started doing this and it became our real job, and people would ask me what I did, I'm like, I make a podcast. I swear it's a real job. Then for, like, eight years, I stopped saying that because I was like, I think it speaks for itself. I just joined this new gym, and I started meeting people, and they're like, what do you do? I'm like, I'm a podcaster. I swear it's a real job. For some reason, I'm back to that.
Patrick Hines
No, I've gotten. I've gotten to the point where when people hear that, they go, oh, my God, Really? Like, they think it's a very cool thing.
Jillian Betavali
And I'm like, oh, I know.
Patrick Hines
That's so nice.
Jillian Betavali
The best is when people are like, oh, you make a pot. And then they look it up and they're like, oh, damn. You know what I mean?
Patrick Hines
Yeah.
Jillian Betavali
I'm like, I know it's good.
Patrick Hines
It's nice to not have to always explain it anymore.
Jillian Betavali
I don't know why. I'm back to saying, I swear it's a real job. I don't know why.
Patrick Hines
You shouldn't do that anymore.
Jillian Betavali
I know. It is a real job.
Patrick Hines
My uncle said to me recently, also named Mike. I'm surrounded by a lot of mics in my life.
Jillian Betavali
That's true.
Patrick Hines
His son is also named Mike. But anyway, he.
Jillian Betavali
All right, that's enough. No more mics in that family.
Patrick Hines
I know. It's so much. But just in my life, you have
Jillian Betavali
a lot of mics.
Patrick Hines
I have so many. They're all great. But he. He said to me, he was like, you know, because there was a time where I was, like, struggling and, like, my college story is, like, crazy and whatever. And he said he was like, I never knew, like, what you were gonna do, but I always knew no matter what it was, you were gonna be successful at it. Like, no matter where you landed, I knew it was gonna be great. You just needed to figure out what it was.
Jillian Betavali
I was like, I would have thought that about you, too. My sister recently said that to me.
Patrick Hines
I'm not saying it as a humble brat. You. No, no, no, no. I know that.
Jillian Betavali
But, like, you are that. You are that kind of person.
Patrick Hines
You know, dark for a while, and I didn't even know. I didn't even trust myself about that, you know?
Jillian Betavali
Well, I should be to you privately, like, publicly, like, you're an only child. You have parents that are successful. You never. The. One of the things that I am so amazed about by you is that the idea of asking your parents for help back when you were a bartender and you were. Was never even crossed your mind. You would just never have done it. And, you know, being a kid, that for whom, like, that's not an option. I'm always, like, jealous of kids for whom that is an option. And to meet one for whom that would be an option, who would never have it blows my mind about you.
Patrick Hines
Yeah.
Jillian Betavali
Which is why that's what I'm talking about. When. If I'd known you longer when we were younger, before we were doing this, I would have had the same thought. I would have been like, she's going to. Whatever she's going to do, she's going to be successful.
Patrick Hines
Oh, that's very nice. And.
Jillian Betavali
But that is why. That is my proof as to why that is true.
Patrick Hines
If I, you know, like I always said, if. If we needed to move home during COVID like, that could have obviously been an option. It's not like they would have said no, but it was something I just wanted to do.
Jillian Betavali
I think it's amazing about you, but that's why people think that about you, because you're just. You're going to. You're scrappy and you're going to make it work.
Patrick Hines
I just mean that should be the norm is my point. Yeah, like, it should be the norm to be like, oh, you're a photographer. That's. That's cool.
Jillian Betavali
Well, like, when you're seeing. She's having so much success. Like, you know, this is where her sort of like social media and her work life sort of come together.
Friend 2
In 2016, her photography business just started going bonkers. She was out of town every weekend going to like, awesome places to shoot people. And then she started recording herself, putting her thoughts out there.
Friend 1
She became this traveling photographer. She used TikTok as a platform and expanded her business.
Jillian Betavali
Like, I can understand a parent being like, you've been trying this photography thing for 10 years and you're not really. It's not work. No. For Sonya, like, it was working. She becomes sought after. She's traveling the country, she's going to all these cool places, she's making money, she's building a social media following. Like, it's working.
Patrick Hines
Yeah.
Jillian Betavali
Her. What's the problem?
Patrick Hines
Everyone stops.
Jillian Betavali
The problem is when her parents don't want to have to explain it's a real job, like I'm doing at the gym.
Patrick Hines
It's more about them and what they have to say and what the community's gonna. Some woman can't even get out of whatever this really. It was. If you're getting divorced. It wasn't working. Let's just say that I'm not gonna assign what it was. It wasn't working. She's ostracized from the community by getting out of that. That's crazy.
Jillian Betavali
And like, I understand that it's cultural and I don't wanna sound judgmental, but we're here, we are sitting in this room because this system costs this woman her life.
Patrick Hines
And about that system, like, her friend Meru is here. Cause they met on social media and they bonded over their upbringing and their family life. What it was like to be both a Muslim and American. And she's like, we were trying to rewrite all of these rules that were like forced upon us. And she says that Sonia made the religion what it means to her rather than what everyone else says it should be.
Jillian Betavali
I wrote that down too. Because it's not like Sonia was shunning the religion. She wasn't. She wanted to be a part of it, you know, and she. But like, she wanted to have religion be what it is for her, which is like what I think about. Like, my mom is gay and my mom, like, came out in the Catholic Church and like, wanted to stay because my mom loved the cat, but she wanted to make it work for her.
Patrick Hines
Right.
Jillian Betavali
Which is what I think religion should aspire.
Patrick Hines
Right. That like, doing it the other way is just by definition oppressive.
Jillian Betavali
Yes.
Patrick Hines
It just.
Jillian Betavali
Yes.
Patrick Hines
Is right.
Jillian Betavali
I mean, and literally that's why we're here.
Friend 2
Yeah.
Jillian Betavali
So now we're with Olivia. She's another social media friend and she, once again, another friend saying Sonia was the best photographer ever.
Patrick Hines
But also like Sonia had big dreams of, she wanted to be in a marriage, she wanted a big family. She loved this thriving photography career. And so like she, when she meets people like Olivia who say like, she, it's not, not just that she was pursuing photography.
Jillian Betavali
Right.
Patrick Hines
She was excellent at it. And she would capture these beautiful moments in beautiful ways and she becomes like a wedding photographer. She loved love and people are talking
Jillian Betavali
about how like the photography is great. She's using social media to promote her photography, but the social media is also blowing up.
Patrick Hines
Right?
Jillian Betavali
So they're saying it's like she has two full time jobs. She's like a full time photographer and a full time influencer and she's making money. At one point she's like paying her rent through her TikTok videos.
Patrick Hines
Right. Like by 2016, Sonia's photography career has been skyrocketing. She's always out of town for work. Her friends describe her as a traveling photographer. Like it doesn't matter where the gig was. If someone wanted her to photograph their wedding event, whatever, like, she would go. She was kicking ass.
Jillian Betavali
And people are jealous. Like she gets to travel for this job that she loves. Girl, Home Chef is back. You know that I always loved Home Chef but that I've like re loved it even more since I actually started cooking for my family sometimes because it
Patrick Hines
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Jillian Betavali
I got to tell you. They've got all kinds of like meals for all kinds of schedules. So we're talking if you need 30 minute meals, oven ready tray meals, those are the ones I like to make. Or even a quick microwave lunch. Home Chef has got you totally covered.
Patrick Hines
Yeah. And people really love it. Home Chef is rated number one by users of other meal kits for quality, convenience, value, taste and recipes. And you know, I know from meal kits, so for sure.
Jillian Betavali
And speaking of value, fam, it's super affordable. Home Chef customers save an average of $86 per month on groceries. 86 bucks?
Patrick Hines
Yeah. So like, you're eating well, you're saving time, you're saving money.
Jillian Betavali
Yes.
Patrick Hines
You don't have to have that awful conversation. What are we doing for dinner tonight? Guess what?
Jillian Betavali
You already picked it a week ago and it's in your Fridge. And it's going to take you, like, less than 30 minutes to make, and your house is going to smell like a restaurant.
Patrick Hines
Okay, there you go. Done. Sold.
Jillian Betavali
So, fam. For a limited time, Home Chef is offering our listeners 50% off and free shipping for your first box, plus free dessert for life.
Patrick Hines
Go to home chef.com TCO that's home
Jillian Betavali
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Patrick Hines
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Jillian Betavali
And you're going to want to be, like, you're going to want to be.
Patrick Hines
Yeah, it's like a winner.
Jillian Betavali
It's a win.
Friend 1
Win.
Jillian Betavali
So it's 2017, and her relationship with Robert ends. Remember, he was the guy that she met in college.
Patrick Hines
Yeah.
Jillian Betavali
And, like, she was honestly a little bit caving to the pressure of her parents to meet a South Asian man to bring home because she wanted to
Friend 1
have a strong relationship with her mother and father. So she needed to find the right person to make them happy, to make them proud.
Grant
She decided on dating a South Asian person that she could bring home to mom and dad.
Jillian Betavali
Once again, she wants to be in a marriage with somebody that her parents are gonna, like, love and celebrate, and it's not gonna be this white guy.
Patrick Hines
And she was really scared of falling in love with the wrong. The quote, wrong person.
Jillian Betavali
Yes.
Patrick Hines
That breaks my heart.
Jillian Betavali
I know. And that's, like, in my opinion, that's like, a young person thing. Like, I get that too. But I think in her mind, family and marriage is beyond just the husband. It's like, my parents have to love them, and they're gonna be the grandparents. And what? Like, she honestly doesn't want to rock the boat. She wants to make everybody happy.
Patrick Hines
So when she's on these dating apps, she's, like, only looking for the type of guy her parents will approve of, which makes me crazy because she's not even putting in all of the things. What if she wants another photographer? What if she wants someone who's also creative or isn't a doctor, lawyer, engineer, which are all great things. But maybe Sonia doesn't want that, and that has to be okay.
Jillian Betavali
I couldn't agree more. And she meets this guy, Raheel. He's training to be a physician's assistant. And like the friends are saying, he was charismatic, he was sweet. He was Pakistani and Muslim, just like Sonya and Grant. Grant. My friend Grant, who may or may not have a boyfriend, likes him because he knows how to present himself right. I like that about Grant.
Patrick Hines
Well, I think her friends would appreciate that because she is so awesome, and she really does know what she wants in terms of this long term relationship. So I think, like, she wouldn't appreciate someone who showed up like a schlub
Jillian Betavali
who doesn't, like, want to be with somebody who makes a good first impression
Patrick Hines
or like, oh, you're coming to meet me for our date. Like, this must mean something to you because, you know.
Jillian Betavali
You know, like, that's the thing. Their dating life sounded awesome because she lives in Dallas and he lived in Atlanta.
Friend 1
Sonia and Raheel kept a relationship through weekend getaways. They often did camping trips.
Friend 3
Raheel was very sweet to her. He would fly in and surprise her. Would send her gifts and flowers on Valentine's Day.
Jillian Betavali
They're taking weekend camping trips, and they're like, you know, like, they're doing this sort of, like, jet set, sort of early relationship thing, which your face is like, fuck this.
Patrick Hines
Well, I think it could be great. But based on what we know or what we're told that Sonya wants, it's hard to, like, really dive into the everyday life with someone like, that is super fun. I love that idea. But based on what she wants, it's kind of hard to get to know someone where every. When everything you do is this big adventure. What about sitting down, being like, tell me about your childhood. What was your worst breakup? Or what was your.
Jillian Betavali
You know, I was thinking about that because I'm like, you know what? Like, how I kind of love the idea. Cause I'm a workaholic, so I love the idea that, like, Monday to Friday I can, like, work, work, work, work, work. And then, like, weekends are for the relationship.
Patrick Hines
You might, like, save some of the. The bad stuff or some of the.
Jillian Betavali
Yeah.
Patrick Hines
Not perfect stuff, because, like, we only have the weekend. Like, you really got to get into it if you want to build something that we're told Sonya really wants.
Jillian Betavali
I love my husband very much, but I would maybe when, like, when Daisy's older and out of the house, I'm like, steve, go live in Palm Springs for six months and just come back to New York on the weekend.
Patrick Hines
And then you'll go back and forth.
Jillian Betavali
Yeah, that's great. I would miss him a lot. I didn't see him all day today, and I was. I called him and I was. I know he was at the office. I was working at home, and I called him before I came. I'm like, I haven't seen you all day. Like, I miss you. Which is Weird for. Because we are always together or in
Patrick Hines
contact with each other, like, always.
Jillian Betavali
I mean, we. We have to be between Daisy and work and, you know, just, like, life or whatever and. But yeah. So I don't think I would actually like that in practice, but it sounded really, like, fun and.
Sidra
Fun.
Patrick Hines
You just want to be bicoastal. Just be bicoastal. That's what it is.
Jillian Betavali
I know.
Patrick Hines
Stop making up these, like, fantasies that don't make any sense. Just be the bicoastal girly that you want to be.
Jillian Betavali
I do want to be bi. Coastal.
Patrick Hines
You know, that's really what it is.
Jillian Betavali
I've got all these gay friends.
Patrick Hines
Don't put it on Steve.
Jillian Betavali
I know.
Patrick Hines
Anyway. Anyway, we are told that Sonya really, really to marry him mostly so that she could, quote, show him off to the community and, like, he ticked all the right boxes. So maybe her family won't make her life a living hell. I mean, they're still gonna do it for the photography, but maybe this will help if she marries a physician's assistant.
Jillian Betavali
But, like, it took him five years to propose.
Sidra
The reason why it took the time is because she came from a divorced household. That's still a big stigma.
Friend 2
I know that there was some resentment from Raheel's family and the way that they saw Sonia, but she can't help that her parents made the choices that
Jillian Betavali
they did because she came from a divorced household.
Patrick Hines
I know.
Jillian Betavali
Everyone. Fuck off.
Patrick Hines
Fuck off. Lighten up.
Jillian Betavali
Lighten up.
Patrick Hines
Get a grip. Lighten up. Calm down and, like, worry about yourself for five seconds.
Jillian Betavali
And honestly, like, we're gonna learn later. Not only does she come from a divorced household, she's a fucking photographer.
Patrick Hines
Oh, my God.
Jillian Betavali
I don't know if we told you about this, but she's a photographer.
Patrick Hines
I mean, but honestly, like, these are the conversations. Like, he probably lied.
Jillian Betavali
I know.
Patrick Hines
To his parents about what she did. Or, like, don't worry, I'll talk her out of it.
Jillian Betavali
Like, it's. Look, and once again, I know it's cultural, and I know it comes from a place of, like, wanting the best. I know that that's where it comes from. But, like, it. Her life.
Patrick Hines
I'm just. I feel. I feel less and less inclined to make excuses for it when it's so damaging to so many people.
Jillian Betavali
I know. I can't. I think that it's hard to imagine what it would be like to be in the community, like, when it. When it's so much bigger than just you or your family. Like. Like, the. The cultural pressure I don't know why I'm so flemmy. I'm sorry. The cultural pressure isn't just coming from her parents. Like, the, it, the pressure is coming to her parents from their community.
Patrick Hines
Right.
Jillian Betavali
But that's all they know. And I'm sympathetic to that.
Patrick Hines
I hear that. But that's the old guard, because Sonya is meeting all of these people online, all of her friends, half of them who are sitting here, and there are a lot of her friends, and they're all awesome, but half of them met her online because they recognize so much in each other.
Jillian Betavali
Yeah.
Patrick Hines
So, like, the new generation is here to say, like, we gotta stop some of this oppressive shit.
Jillian Betavali
Yeah. Well, speaking of, we go to their wedding. Like, the wedding. The wedding starts out great.
Patrick Hines
A June wedding. June 20th. Probably everything she wanted, you know?
Jillian Betavali
Yes. And, like, and she looks gorgeous. But, like, once again, we're told there's all this pressure for her to be the perfect, most beautiful bride that ever brided.
Patrick Hines
Well, the wedding is what everyone wanted it to look like, which, which is a trend. Like, it should look like this and make everyone whatever. And so it was huge. Sonia was stunning. Everything looked fine.
Jillian Betavali
She looked I, I, she was absolutely breathtaking.
Patrick Hines
ABS, 100%. So during what they call the signing of the papers, there was an event. They don't really explain this, but this is like a special ceremony that's done. It's called the Nikah ceremony. I'm sorry if I'm mispronouncing that, but it's like a sacred agreement.
Jillian Betavali
Okay.
Patrick Hines
That, like, formalizes the marriage under Islamic law. There's a lot more to it, but it's like you go into the agreement with the person about, like, what you expect to your marriage, and you're, like, consenting to the marriage. So it's like an agreement. It's like paperwork that you actually sign. Because they say that, but it's also, like, a very sad good thing as well.
Jillian Betavali
But this is where we start to learn that there's, like, discord between the families because Sonya, like, her parents are divorced. And so Raheed's family isn't, like, super into them. And so when they're doing the signing
Friend 1
of the papers, the conflict was over something what I thought was very minor. It was like a seating arrangement. He was telling her father to sit in a certain place. But I recalled her speaking back to him that, you know, you're not supposed to be telling us, like, what to do.
Jillian Betavali
Raheed is trying to tell Sonia's dad where to sit. And Sonia's dad is like, bitch, you don't tell me where to sit. And Raheed apparently takes out a sword, which is part of his wedding suit, and slams it down on the table. Like, one of her friends is like, I saw, like, black in his eyes.
Patrick Hines
She says, I have a weapon, and I'm willing to use it to Sonia's
Jillian Betavali
dad at their wedding. To which I would say, you better.
Patrick Hines
And the thing. Because what happened is, like, Raheela trying to tell Sonia's father what to do. And as we've been told a million times, you don't disrespect the elders. And this is the ultimate disrespecting of the elders. Like, speaking out of turn. And I paid for this. How dare you. There's, like, all of these rules are culminating into this one incident.
Jillian Betavali
And all of her friends are like, I don't know where that fell in the ceremony, but early enough in the night that it ruined the night for everybody. It just ruined the wedding.
Patrick Hines
Her dad wants Raheel to leave his own wedding.
Jillian Betavali
Yes.
Patrick Hines
Like, wants to kick the groom out of the wedding. But all of the friends, even now are like, I don't want to talk about. It was so bad.
Jillian Betavali
Some of the friends, like, won't, like, literally won't speak about it to this day.
Patrick Hines
And I think they felt. I can't imagine being either Sonia or her friends in that moment being like, oh, this is like a peek into who you're marrying. You have to run. And she can't run.
Jillian Betavali
And not only that, we're told that, like, in this moment, she. She's like. Feels like she has to support her husband over her father.
Patrick Hines
And that is drama, too, because then her parents are mad at her. She's already a fucking photographer. I mean, like, it's just getting.
Jillian Betavali
Let her live.
Patrick Hines
Just live, girl.
Jillian Betavali
ZipRecruiter is back. I love ZipRecruiter. I've used it so many times. And I got to tell you, the thing about the Zip recruiter candidates, they're more eager about the job. They're the ones who want to learn more about the job. They're more invested in the job, like, through the interview process. And on day one, we're obsessed.
Patrick Hines
Yeah. And they're also qualified.
Jillian Betavali
Yes.
Patrick Hines
That's the thing.
Jillian Betavali
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Patrick Hines
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Jillian Betavali
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Patrick Hines
And ZipRecruiter has a new feature that shows you the most interested qualified candidates first so you meet the right people faster.
Jillian Betavali
Yes. And candidates can tell you in their own words why they're interested in your job both from like the applying side and the hiring side. That's amazing.
Patrick Hines
Yeah, absolutely. I also would like, if I'm applying for a job, would like to know that the person that's going to hire
Jillian Betavali
me actually cares and like actually really wants the job. And like as the candidate it gives you that opportunity to really stand out.
Patrick Hines
Exactly, exactly.
Jillian Betavali
So fam. Find candidates who really want your job on ZipRecruiter.
Patrick Hines
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Jillian Betavali
Try it for free at ZipRecruiter.com/TCO.
Patrick Hines
That's ZipRecruiter.com/TCO.
Jillian Betavali
Meet your match on ZipRecruiter.
Patrick Hines
Do it.
Jillian Betavali
We're gonna go to Chicago which makes me feel so much better. I like love Chicago so much and
Patrick Hines
there was a part of me before I we knew how bad Reheel really was. I was like great, get the hell away from everybody. Go to Chicago. Get space from your all of your terrible parents.
Jillian Betavali
Yes. And like the thing is like he's going to medical, medical school there cuz he's going to be a physician's assistant. And like one of their friends says to us they move into a highrise on the 28th floor. And I just made a note, I'm like this is going to be important to this story like that really look, it's not about me. I could never live that high. We looked at an apartment once that was like in the 60th floor. I, I, we live on the fourth floor and I could not go any higher than that.
Patrick Hines
I lived on a very high floor. It was a rental and it was during COVID so the price was like insane and we got a in price. New Yorkers will know this. It was the price of the rent and go up for like four years. And it was, I remember that they were, I was like I kind of never going to get this deal again. But it was incredibly high up. And when it was really windy like I used to send you pictures. I'm like oh, I'm in the clouds today. I remember, not fun for me. But anyway, so November 7, 2021. Sonia is a guest on a podcast called Brown Bad and Bothered.
Jillian Betavali
Yes.
Patrick Hines
And she is talking very candidly about her experiences as a South Asian woman woman. Like these strict parents, balancing the cultures, being in a, quote, unapproved career.
Jillian Betavali
But she's also talking about how, like, her husband is working so hard. He's in physician's assistant school. It's going to be a long time. She's, like, thrilled that she gets to be the breadwinner. She makes good money as a photographer and as a social media influencer. The problem is Sonia was trying to
Friend 3
live between the online world and the real world. Trying to pick and choose things that would reflect well when in reality, things weren't going very well in her relationship.
Jillian Betavali
She's trying to present, like, everything is amazing in her life, but it's not.
Patrick Hines
Yeah.
Jillian Betavali
Which broke my heart because when we hear her on the podcast and she
Patrick Hines
sounds happy, she also says on the podcast, which I think is really important, support your child, motivate them. If you want them to succeed, if you want them to be happy, if you want them to succeed and be happy, then support them in what they're doing. Because she's like, this evil photographer. She's also killing it.
Jillian Betavali
Exactly.
Patrick Hines
So she's. I loved hearing her say, like, please break the cycle. I'm doing my part to break the cycle. Yeah, you can do that. That too.
Jillian Betavali
And. But we learn, like, what's really going on in her life is that Raheel is never around. Between school and his friends and studying, he's never there. She says, well, I'm, quote, playing housewife. And, like, also the way he talks to her, he's telling her that her job isn't a real job. His family's never going to approve of it. She's got to, like, give it up and do something real.
Patrick Hines
Can you imagine getting out of a house like that, like, with your parents, and then your husband turns around and uses that same shit against you that your parents said that you thought you were getting away from.
Jillian Betavali
I know. And, like, I want to. I wonder, like, when they met, did they bond over being, like, first generation American kids of Pakistani parents who wanted more? Because we're going to learn that Raheel, he was like the absolute, quote, the perfect golden boy. The golden boy, which is impossible to live up to. But we're told in this moment, he was perfect to his parents. His sisters were perfect to their parents. And, like, Sonya can never live up to the perfection of him and his sisters.
Patrick Hines
Yeah, like, all of the women in his perfect family were absolutely perfect. And Sonya was being told by her family, her husband and her husband's family that she'll never be good enough. And it's like, because she's a photographer.
Jillian Betavali
Because she's a photographer and a woman. And that's the thing that, like. Like the fact that her husband isn't standing up for her in that moment,
Patrick Hines
the betrayal of that. Because he must have been nice about it for a while. He's not a fudgeing idiot.
Jillian Betavali
That's what I was thinking.
Patrick Hines
She never would have, like, put up with that. So for him to, like, that moment must have been, like, betrayal of it. You're supposed to love and support me.
Jillian Betavali
Exactly. So suddenly, as we're learning that things aren't as great as she's presenting, she kind of disappears from social media.
Patrick Hines
She's isolating.
Jillian Betavali
She's isolating. One of her friends is like, I was going to Chicago to see a bunch of friends. I wanted to reach out to see
Meru
her, but she told me she wouldn't be able to because she had some family stuff going on. And that was kind of a red flag for me because she would tell me what it was. I just knew that there was something that she wasn't telling me because she
Jillian Betavali
had, quote, family stuff to do. And she's like, that's when. That was a red flag. That's when I knew that, like, something was not.
Patrick Hines
Like, her friend is in her city.
Jillian Betavali
Yeah.
Patrick Hines
Sonia's parents are in chat Chattanooga.
Jillian Betavali
Right.
Patrick Hines
And her husband's always. Is never around because of studying. And, like, Sonia can't hang out with her friend.
Jillian Betavali
Right. And she's off the grid. This was a woman who was, like, making her living on social media, who's, like, just, like, nowhere to be seen.
Patrick Hines
Her business, her livelihood. And now she's off the grid. And citrus like, no, this is not okay. So then we jump to January 2022, and she, Sonia, starts to tell her friends the truth about what happened, quote, in December.
Jillian Betavali
Yes.
Patrick Hines
Like, a few weeks before. And so now we go back to December 7, 2021, and, like, gird your
Jillian Betavali
loins here, fam, because this is so and terrifying. We learn that Raheel was having a suicidal episode in their apartment on the 28th floor, grabbed Sonya and tried to jump off the balcony with her.
Patrick Hines
Right. Like, I mean, he was trying to kill both of them.
Jillian Betavali
Yes. That is. That is absolutely beyond. And apparently his mother was there and was somehow able to get him to not do that. But then also, the fact that he tried to kill himself becomes, like, such a taboo.
Patrick Hines
And Murder Sonia.
Sidra
She's like, my mom just didn't want anyone to know. I honestly didn't know what to do. Her in laws were refusing to look at the fact that Brielle had a serious problem.
Jillian Betavali
Sonja's own mother, who is like, you can never talk about this. This happens sometimes. Like, sometimes husbands just get like that.
Patrick Hines
What is everybody gonna say? Her own mother, instead of trying to help this clearly dire situation where Sonia is in grave danger. Grave.
Jillian Betavali
Grave danger.
Patrick Hines
I don't mean. I'm not saying that as a joke. Like, she was almost. That's attempted murder.
Jillian Betavali
Yes. And, like, just because he didn't pull it off the first time, like, doesn't mean he's not gonna try it again tomorrow.
Sidra
Right?
Patrick Hines
Like, is anyone getting help here at all? No. Great. So we get the screenshot that I need to slow down on. Sonya says this is the incident that makes her want to tell her friends. Like, we. I need to tell you. Like, this is not good. Sonya texts Sidra. Hey, babe, a lot has happened I haven't shared. Sidra's response immediately is, can you talk?
Jillian Betavali
Yes.
Patrick Hines
This is what I'm always saying, right? Like, Sonia was off the grid. She was ghosting everyone. She reached out to Sidra. Sidra didn't even think, can you talk?
Jillian Betavali
Yep.
Patrick Hines
We want to help you.
Jillian Betavali
Yes.
Patrick Hines
Reach out to us. Your friends miss you and are worried about you 100%. Text us.
Jillian Betavali
Yeah. This is where we get a bit of, like, Raheel struggling with the oppression of trying to live up to that perfect son moniker. Like, that's where a lot of his mental health stuff is coming from. But he's also not a lot allowed to talk about his mental health. He also lied.
Friend 1
Something else that came out was his age, that he had lied. He was actually in his mid-30s. That, for her, was a huge turning point as well, because she actually doesn't know who the hell she married, saying
Jillian Betavali
he was 26 when he was actually in his mid-30s.
Patrick Hines
Right.
Jillian Betavali
So this is another thing where Sonya's like, my husband just tried to kill me, and I have absolutely no idea who I married. Like, this man is a stranger to me.
Patrick Hines
And we see him texting her. My family feel you are overreacting. Like, I don't understand. So now, like, do you know how lonely that must feel for Sonia? She can't even talk to her husband. She can't even say to her husband, what do you need? Like, we need to get help. Like, how can we fix this?
Jillian Betavali
And if you're Sonia's parent, if this were Daisy, the only thing that I would be thinking is he's going to kill her.
Patrick Hines
Yeah.
Jillian Betavali
And the most important thing in the world is to keep her safe. And I am imagining, I'm assuming that what the. Her family and his family are actually thinking is the reputation of the family comes over her safety a hundred percent. Absolutely. It is. It is more important that nobody know that he's struggling with his mental health and that he just tried to kill her than it is that we get her out of there and keep her safe.
Patrick Hines
And to lie about his age. A 10 year age difference that she finds out after the wedding. I'm like, who did she marry? And then I thought about it for a second. I'm like, oh, a fucking coward mama's boy. That too. Because we get a text from him. My mother thinks you need to be more supportive of your husband. Husband. Bye.
Jillian Betavali
Yes, but like, but this is what I'm saying. Like, she was. She's grown up in a system that has told her she can't leave. Except that her mother did. But her mother is telling her that she can't.
Patrick Hines
She's being gaslit from all sides.
Jillian Betavali
Yes.
Patrick Hines
Because her mother is now a totally different person. Apparently not saying, like, what did Sonia's dad do, mom, that made you say enough is enough, but your daughter being almost thrown off a 28 floor balcony isn't enough. What's going on here?
Jillian Betavali
Right?
Patrick Hines
What? What is happening?
Jillian Betavali
Yeah, right.
Patrick Hines
Make it make sense. Like, her parents are talking shit to her. Her husband is her husband's family. She's isolated. Thank God she reached out to Sidra, at least for a moment. To not feel alone like that, I
Jillian Betavali
mean, it's just insane.
Patrick Hines
So her friend to kill her.
Jillian Betavali
He tried to kill her by throwing her off a balcony. And she doesn't want to sleep next to him. She's afraid he's going to kill her in the middle of the night. And he might.
Patrick Hines
So By January of 2022, when she's opened up to her friends about it, her friend Meru literally goes to rescue her in secret. She's like, okay, I'm leaving now.
Jillian Betavali
I'm on the next what I would do. She gets there, Raheel is home and like. And does not know that Maru is coming.
Meru
And she packed a small bag and she brought her camera like her baby. We ran to the elevator. We were shaking, out of breath, adrenaline was pumping, thinking that he had followed us. But we made it.
Jillian Betavali
They run to the elevator. They are shaking, they are out of breath, they are afraid. Rikula has followed them. He. He has not. They get on an airplane and they go to Maru's New York apartment.
Patrick Hines
And Sonya has escaped.
Jillian Betavali
Yes.
Patrick Hines
And once she is out of this situation for two seconds, she really can see how not okay any of this is and how scary and dangerous it is and how everyone around her is failing her.
Jillian Betavali
Yes.
Patrick Hines
And burying her more and more in this bullshit.
Jillian Betavali
Yeah.
Patrick Hines
They're making it a million times worse by the second. And she's like, she says out loud, that's it. I'm getting a divorce. She says it.
Jillian Betavali
Yes.
Patrick Hines
So Sonya goes home to deal with this. And where is Raheel? With his mommy. And then we get Sidra. Put this in the fucking Lou. She. This is screenshot that I took.
Sidra
And she goes, A self entitled boy goes running back to his mom.
Patrick Hines
A self entitled boy goes running back to his mom. And the poses her with her arms out. Print it out, frame it, hang it in the Lou.
Jillian Betavali
Yes. Down, back. But still the Louvre. That's a Lord song. I'm like obsessed.
Patrick Hines
I don't know why you love Lord now,
Jillian Betavali
girl. Ladder is back. Look, this is all about solving your gym problems. Because I think like so many people, we want to go to the gym, we want to be fit. But like, you walk in the room and then you have no idea what to do.
Patrick Hines
I have no idea what to do. I need to be told. I need a program.
Jillian Betavali
Yes, that's exactly what Ladder is. Ladder is an expert strength training plan, not a content library. So these aren't influencer workouts or challenges. It's all real progressive programing designed by certified coaches.
Patrick Hines
Yeah. And it's all about like, it works for any strength training style that you prefer. If you're a Pilates girly, or if you want to do bodybuilding, or if you have like at home, dumbbell bells and that's it. Like anything that you need, there are programs for it.
Jillian Betavali
And it's not like they just like give you a thing that you read. There's in ear coaching guides that guide you through every set with cues, form reminders, which honestly don't waste your time doing a thing incorrectly because you're getting nothing out of it. And motivation, it's in your ear. They're telling you what to do.
Patrick Hines
Yeah. And your progress is tracked automatically so the app will remember your weights, your reps, your sets. You can see yourself getting stronger over time. You could see what needs to be changed, what needs to be adjusted.
Jillian Betavali
This is the answer if you've been wanting to start like a gym program, but you, like, are too overwhelmed or too intimidated. This is it. This is going to tell you everything you need and like, help you progress over time.
Patrick Hines
I love this.
Jillian Betavali
So bam. Remove the guesswork with ladder and get a real coach in your ear telling you exactly what to do for every workout.
Patrick Hines
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Jillian Betavali
Yeah. If you have an iPhone, head to ladder, dot fit slash TCO and take a quick quiz to find your perfect ladder plan.
Patrick Hines
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Jillian Betavali
No excuses anymore, fam. Today is the day.
Patrick Hines
No strength training. Here we come.
Jillian Betavali
Here we go. The thing that Sonya does is she turns to her online community and why this is such a big deal is because nobody from their community is doing this. She's sharing her pain. She's sharing her confusion. She's sharing how she's been feeling gaslit. She's sharing how her family isn't supporting her. And like, people are really responding to this because so many women in that community are going through the same thing.
Patrick Hines
Someone's commenting, don't stop making videos was don't stop speaking. And so her content evolves and she also starts talking about her upbringing.
Jillian Betavali
Yes.
Patrick Hines
You know, like pov, you're the black sheep of your South Asian family. And someone is commenting, my parents have boycotted me since I got divorced. See you later. Mom and dad with the peace sign.
Jillian Betavali
Yes. Like, people were so desperate for somebody to say it first.
Patrick Hines
And she's making a difference.
Jillian Betavali
Yes.
Patrick Hines
Like, she's healing. Others are healing. There's this new community now, this new generation. The old guard is over. Like, these people trying to say, like, oh my, I can talk about it now.
Jillian Betavali
And one of her friends says, like, her message, like, it wasn't just for Pakistani Muslim women.
Friend 2
She says her message was, no matter what religion you come from, you're a woman and you're beautiful and you can achieve anything that you set your mind to.
Jillian Betavali
You can accomplish anything you set your mind to.
Patrick Hines
Yeah. This religious oppression and patriarchy is fucking everywhere. We sit it with the Mormons.
Jillian Betavali
You know, it's interesting. Like, we were, we were just did a Patreon panel yesterday at Onyx. The big buzzword of the, of the weekend was authenticity. And I was, somebody was like, oh, well, how do you, like, make your videos go viral? And I'm like, we don't care about that. We just care about making the things that resonate with our listeners and resonate with each other. And like, that's what we do, and that's what we love. And that is the one of the reasons why Sonya became such a social media star, because she wasn't trying to get famous. She wasn't trying to, like, even make money. She was just trying to share her experience in the hopes that it helped
Patrick Hines
son somebody else, and that's how many people it helped. Yes, that she was going viral.
Jillian Betavali
I know all the time. And, like, I think that is such a thing to really think about. Anybody who's listening to this, who wants to, like, share any part of your life on social media, like, yeah, the way you find success doing that is by just being who you are, you know? And unfortunately, your community will find you 100%.
Patrick Hines
Unfortunately. However, with this will always come the death threats, the haters, the trolls, the unhinged people, the bullying, the harassment.
Jillian Betavali
Especially if you're a woman and especially if, like, you're a Pakistani Muslim woman.
Patrick Hines
I want to read some of these comments because they're all threats to her.
Jillian Betavali
Yeah.
Patrick Hines
Glorifying divorce and disrespecting privacy is filthy. Why play with fire like that?
Jillian Betavali
That sounds like a threat.
Patrick Hines
That's a threat to me.
Jillian Betavali
Yeah.
Patrick Hines
My sympathy goes to him. Till death does us part. I mean, we're not going to be the grammar police right now, but, like,
Jillian Betavali
that's also a threat police of our worries, but it's still up there, like,
Patrick Hines
till death do us part. Like, I know what you're trying to say.
Jillian Betavali
Yes.
Patrick Hines
Then last but not least, prostitute. You should suffer the pain you caused. This is what she's dealing with. On the flip side of being authentic and finding this thriving community of women who don't feel alone and are finally making their voices heard.
Jillian Betavali
Yeah.
Patrick Hines
And even her own mother is texting her. Shit. Stop being a teenager. Stop posting that online. Teenager.
Jillian Betavali
Like, I don't understand. Her mother got divorced. I know her mother left an abusive marriage, but she's not allowed to.
Patrick Hines
And Sonia's friends are like, she didn't focus on that.
Meru
She was like, girl, I'm gonna delete blocks and move on.
Friend 2
She brushed him off. You don't really think someone's gonna, like, lash out like that for just something as silly as something you post online.
Patrick Hines
Delete, block, move on was her. Her mantra.
Jillian Betavali
Yeah. And this is where we meet her friend Gabrielle, who I love. Yeah, Gabrielle's her friend in Chattanooga. Like, all of these friends that we meet, they just start to glow when they talk about Sonya. And she's just saying that, like, they. You know, they met on social media. She calls her, like, twin flame, soul sister, whatever you want to talk about it. And like, Gabrielle is. Has a front row seat for watching Sonya make this whole new life for herself through, like, sharing her. Her, like, lived experience on social media.
Patrick Hines
Yeah. And so Sonia gets a tattoo, which is the number 28 in Roman numerals. And it was the year she, quote, woke up. Also, she lived on the 28th floor and survived attempted murder.
Jillian Betavali
Isn't that wild?
Patrick Hines
So the number 28 is really important to her.
Jillian Betavali
Yeah.
Patrick Hines
And she posts about it. She says, the year I got married, the year I moved from a small town to one of the largest cities in the country, the year I fired for divorce, the year I almost died. And my apartment is on the 28th floor, which if you know my story is the one I almost lost my life in on. She's put that's the real. On the screen of her video.
Jillian Betavali
Yeah.
Patrick Hines
So she said, tomorrow as I wake up, you know, like, she's just really thriving and taking her, like, wearing it like a badge because this is her story and she's gonna break the cycle and she's gonna make changes and we're all gonna heal.
Jillian Betavali
And she gets back together with Robert, the white guy from college.
Patrick Hines
Yes.
Jillian Betavali
You know, the one that got away. So she's going to move back to Chattanooga. That's her big thing. She's gonna move in with Gabrielle. She and Gabrielle are gon. Gabrielle. I don't. I feel like Gabrielle just signed like a five year lease. But as soon as Sonia was like, can we live together? She's like, fuck it. Burn it down. Of course we're living together.
Patrick Hines
Yeah. I think they are incredibly, incredibly close. And they. I mean, Gabrielle says that's when we fell in love. So I think they are very.
Jillian Betavali
Are you granting me right now?
Patrick Hines
I don't know if I am. I'm just saying I think I got a little bit. I think they were very seriously connected. I'm not assigning anybody anything because Gabrielle doesn't say anything.
Jillian Betavali
Gabrielle calls her her twin flame.
Patrick Hines
She says soulmate and soul sister. And she said that's when we fell in love. So you can use that in any way. I talk about that way with my friends, about my friends sometimes. But I'm getting, you know, like Sonia flies Gabriella to Chicago. It's not like relationship vibes. It's okay a little bit, but I don't want to, like, Gabrielle is here being very honest about this tragedy that happens. So I don't want to be a dick about it, but I'm getting Like, I don't know. I think they fed each other in a really important way.
Jillian Betavali
Well, that's the thing, is that, like, whatever it was, it was the beginning of something. Something, you know what I mean?
Patrick Hines
Really important to both of them and really big.
Jillian Betavali
And it's like, we all have friendships that are really intimate, that, like, you know what I mean?
Patrick Hines
That you, this point in your life,
Jillian Betavali
100%, you know, like.
Patrick Hines
And I don't know Gabriella's story. Maybe she was going through something similar. I have no idea.
Jillian Betavali
Yeah.
Patrick Hines
But the plan is that. So Sonya flies Gabriella to Chicago. Gabriella is going to help Sonya pack up, and then they will drive from Chicago to Chattanooga.
Jillian Betavali
She says, have a little adventure. I'm like, that sounds amazing.
Patrick Hines
It sounds phenomenal.
Jillian Betavali
That's about as far as I want to drive with anybody. Chicago to Chattanooga. That halfway across. We can do that.
Patrick Hines
Yeah. I just hear the like and like. Like, just, like, figuratively and literally, like, leav everything behind.
Jillian Betavali
Now all I can imagine is the lesbian U Haul. You know what I mean?
Patrick Hines
So Gabriella is fresh off the plane. She just landed in Chicago. She's supposed to go to Sonia's house to help her pack. I landed, and I asked her, what train do I need to get on? And I hadn't heard from her, so that worried me a little bit. I still. I called her a lot, and she's texting, like, wait, what train do I take again? And Sonia's not answering her. Now, now, this is interesting. I guess Sonia and Gabriella were posting a lot about moving in together, because Gabriella says that Sonia's followers are reaching out to Gabriella because she goes, they know we were supposed to see each other today.
Jillian Betavali
Yeah.
Patrick Hines
So she's getting these, like, Instagram phone calls, which is a very weird thing. Instagram, that you might call someone on Instagram.
Jillian Betavali
Somebody called me on, like, Facebook messenger. What's happened?
Patrick Hines
And it's like, sometimes it's like, oh, my God. Sorry, I didn't mean to do that. But sometimes it's like people leaving messages, and I'm like, oh, okay.
Jillian Betavali
Yeah.
Patrick Hines
Anyway. But she's getting all these messages, like, from Sonia's followers reaching out to Gabriella because they all knew that this big move was happening.
Jillian Betavali
But then one of them sends. Gabriella is, like, waiting for, like, a text or a call back from Sonya, like, where are you, girl? I'm here. One of her followers texts her and says, I'm so sorry about Sonya.
Patrick Hines
And then Sonia's father and mother called Gabriella and Gabriella's like, this is the first time I've ever been in. Like, I don't know. Her parents. We've never spoken before.
Jillian Betavali
Yeah.
Patrick Hines
So now they're calling Gabriell, Gabriella. Like, everyone knows that Gabriella is here, right? And they're all reaching out to her.
Jillian Betavali
The dad says to her, she's gone.
Patrick Hines
Well, you know what? He finally did it. Like that. That becomes so. The minute Gabrielle is texting Sonia, what train do I take? I'm like, he did it. He finally did it.
Jillian Betavali
Yes.
Patrick Hines
Piece of.
Jillian Betavali
And we learn that at 4:30 in the afternoon that day, the day that Gabrielle landed, the police were called to Sonia's apartment. And upon arrival that the cops are standing outside the apartment door.
Friend 3
Upon arrival, they heard a gunshot, broke in and found Sanya's body unresponsive. They then found another body with a gunshot wound to the head. It was Raheel.
Jillian Betavali
They find Sonya unresponsive, and then they find another body with a gunshot to the head. And it's Raheel.
Patrick Hines
Yeah. Raheel killed Sonja and then himself.
Jillian Betavali
And like all of the friends are learning via text message.
Patrick Hines
Sidra is immediately furious.
Jillian Betavali
Oh, my God.
Patrick Hines
Sidra is me just fucking pissed.
Jillian Betavali
And Gabrielle says, like, he knew I was coming. That's the thing. Like, he knew that I was coming to get her. And this is when he did it.
Patrick Hines
So let's rewind.
Jillian Betavali
It's funny.
Patrick Hines
Been six months since the divorce. The killer drove 700 miles from Atlanta to Chicago.
Jillian Betavali
Can we stop on that for a second? Because I was like, he had 700 miles to talk himself out of it.
Patrick Hines
700 miles, ramp himself up.
Jillian Betavali
I cannot imagine that level of fucking crazy.
Patrick Hines
Well, when you have the support of these insane people telling you, like, till death do you part and she should suffer the way you are suffering, like, that is the echo chamber that he's living in.
Jillian Betavali
Well, we also learn. I mean, he was banned from their apartment.
Patrick Hines
I mean, that's a. Interesting way that they're. That's an interesting word that the documentary is using.
Jillian Betavali
I wonder, though, if there was like, it's not a restraining order. It doesn't sound like. But, like, when you try to, like, grab your wife and jump off the balcony. I wonder what that means. Banned.
Patrick Hines
So let me just slow down on this. So he's, quote, banned from the apartment, but he gets around this by calling a random real estate agent and saying, like, oh, I want to look at this other apartment in the building.
Jillian Betavali
Yeah.
Patrick Hines
Proving that the building had no real way of actually banning him because he still Walked right in with the real estate agent.
Jillian Betavali
And it's also, like, who banned him? Was it like, Sonia who banned him? Was it Sonia's mother who.
Patrick Hines
Not a picture, not a this. Or was it just one of those, like, really awesome things that happen where there's, like, a piece of paper but then you can't actually force it?
Jillian Betavali
Yeah, absolutely.
Patrick Hines
But, like, he was able to walk right in.
Jillian Betavali
And so once that apart, that bogus apartment tour is over.
Friend 3
After the tour, he told the real estate agent that he was going to visit a friend. And at 11am, he knocked on Sonia's door. What is believed to have happened is Raheel told her that he had had her wedding dress in a garment bag. Sonia opened the door and Raheel immediately shot her.
Jillian Betavali
He shoots her.
Patrick Hines
Meanwhile, though, the killer's family has called police and asked them to go to the apartment to do a welfare check because they haven't heard he's been missing for 36 hours. He's been driving the 700 miles. But he didn't tell anybody, I guess.
Jillian Betavali
And, like, not answering his phone, I guess.
Patrick Hines
So Sonia's death is ruled a homicide. His is ruled a suicide. And we're told by the friends, like, once again, Sonia did everything right.
Jillian Betavali
Yes.
Patrick Hines
She divorced him, she changed the locks. He was banned the apartment, for what it's worth, like, she tried to do everything she's told to do.
Jillian Betavali
And, like, pull over for this, please. Because he left a suicide note blaming Sonia. Yeah. I mean, all the friends are like, this is such bullshit. He said in his suicide note, he said he had the gun to his head, telling her he couldn't live without her. She tried to take the gun out of his hand.
Patrick Hines
And before that, they had a good time. And they were laughing, by the way. Everything was perfectly wonderful and normal.
Jillian Betavali
But then he pulls out a gun, puts it to his head, says, I can't live without you. And then according to Raheel, it went like she shot herself by accident. And then he couldn't, like, stand that his having been there caused her death, so he had to kill himself.
Patrick Hines
It's all fucking piece of shit.
Jillian Betavali
Yeah.
Patrick Hines
So Hira is that influencer, the supportive South Asian cis.
Jillian Betavali
Yeah.
Patrick Hines
And she makes videos about this because she's been following Sonia's career, basically, and resonating with her because she's fucking had it.
Jillian Betavali
Yeah.
Friend 3
And she says here, yet again, we have a South Asian woman going through domestic abuse who has now been murdered by her estranged husband. And yet the community is absolutely silent. Time and time again in our Communities, we talk about how women need to be complicit to the abuse that they face. So myself and some other social media influencers that I know from our community spoke up about this, and the community
Patrick Hines
won't talk about it. Right. So now all of these other influencers are saying, like, this is why she had the following she had.
Jillian Betavali
Right.
Patrick Hines
This is why we understood, like, this could be any one of us.
Jillian Betavali
Right. And so they do it. She and, like, all of her girlfriends, like, they're the ones that, like, take to social media to sort of, like, tell Sonia's story and keep this going. Because women in this community desperately need to see women living through things like this, you know, or tragically, being like, this is what can happen if you're not allowed to protect and take care of yourself.
Patrick Hines
And there are still people, men in the comments defending Raheel and blaming Sonya. Even in all of this, people coming together, there are still people in this community and in that religion that are blaming Sonya and defending him.
Jillian Betavali
And it's. He didn't kill her because she left him. He killed her because he was always going to kill her. You know what I mean?
Patrick Hines
Yes.
Jillian Betavali
It wasn't the leaving. Maybe that escalated it, maybe that made it whatever. But he killed her because he was sick and was always going to do this and.
Patrick Hines
And every signal. Because. Don't tell me the signs weren't there long before this.
Jillian Betavali
I mean, we know it's true because before there was any. Before there was any threat of her leaving, he tried to kill her. You know what I mean?
Patrick Hines
Yeah. And the wedding.
Jillian Betavali
Yes.
Patrick Hines
And, you know, he. He reacts violently to things. We. We knew this on their wedding day.
Jillian Betavali
And he's been a liar from day one.
Patrick Hines
Yeah.
Jillian Betavali
His family won't let him get the help he desperately fucking needs because of
Patrick Hines
what, again, because of what people might think.
Jillian Betavali
The reputation or whatever. Yeah.
Patrick Hines
Now he's a. Now he's a fucking murderer. So how's that for her? She's dead. And we all know and we're all talking about it.
Jillian Betavali
Yeah.
Patrick Hines
How about that? But her friends get her Roman numeral tattoo.
Grant
All of her closest friends came to this idea of getting the exact same tattoo in the exact same spot for the exact same reason.
Meru
Aw.
Patrick Hines
I'm so happy. I just had to mark my body with her memory.
Friend 1
I have to.
Jillian Betavali
What a beautiful way to memorialize her and to have, like, a little piece of her, like, with them forever.
Patrick Hines
I think that's really beautiful. Cause I really was moved by how many of her friends came, how they spoke about her, how they wouldn't speak about the boundaries they had, the honesty they had. I just fucking loved all of these women who showed up to continue this conversation. That really, like, needs to be had.
Jillian Betavali
Yeah.
Patrick Hines
And then we get the on screen text to go to the hotline.org if you need any kind of help with any of this whatsoever. So thanks for doing that.
Jillian Betavali
Oh, girl. We did deadly influence, the social media murders. Like, holy, holy, holy shit.
Patrick Hines
Season one, episode two, if you want to check it out. It's good, a great episode. It's a good series.
Jillian Betavali
It is a really good series.
Patrick Hines
They focus on the victim. I love that they have so many of their people here. That means a lot.
Jillian Betavali
I actually also really like that we get to see some of the social media posts that they make.
Patrick Hines
It's so important. Like, the trail is there. It's so obvious, right?
Jillian Betavali
Yeah, yeah, yeah. We love you, fam. Thanks for checking out our bonus episodes.
Patrick Hines
Love you. Yeah. Happy bonus episode season.
Jillian Betavali
Bonus episode season upon us. All right, we love you. Bye.
Patrick Hines
We love you. Stay safe.
Sidra
Bye.
Air Date: May 14, 2026
Hosts: Jillian Betavali & Patrick Hines
Subject: The murder of Sania Khan, a Pakistani American influencer and photographer, and the intersection of social media, cultural expectations, domestic violence, and community silence.
This episode recaps Season 1, Episode 2 of the documentary series "Deadly Influence," which explores the life and tragic death of Sania Khan—a social media influencer whose story spotlights the dangers faced by women straddling multiple cultural expectations. With their signature blend of humor, poignancy, and outrage, Patrick and Jillian unpack Sania’s journey through personal, cultural, and digital challenges, ultimately revealing how the systems around her failed to protect her, leading to her murder by her estranged husband.
Patrick and Jillian close with reminders of the importance of support systems, the dangers of protecting abusive individuals in the name of “honor,” and the power of visibility for those struggling in silence. Sania’s friends honor her with matching tattoos, her story fueling conversations about victims’ rights and the need to end cycles of cultural oppression.
Resource Mentioned:
For help regarding domestic violence, visit thehotline.org.