504: Untold: Chess Mates

Summary

True Crime Obsessed – Episode 504: Untold: Chess Mates

Release Date: June 2, 2026
Hosts: Julian Benzavale & Patrick Hines
Main Theme:
A sharply funny, skeptical recap of Netflix’s “Untold: Chess Mates,” focusing on the explosive Hans Niemann cheating scandal and how it rocked the chess world, as well as the hilarious, petty, and sometimes cringey characters it assembled along the way.

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Julian and Patrick dissect Untold: Chess Mates, the Netflix documentary covering the Hans Niemann chess cheating scandal, which spiraled into one of the sport’s most public dramas. With their trademark irreverence and wit, the hosts unpack the characters, corporate maneuvering, and wild theories that gripped not just chess fans but late night talk shows—thanks largely to a now-infamous “anal beads” cheating theory. The conversation exposes the toxic personalities, possible cover-ups, and male-dominated culture of high-level chess, all while questioning what "proof" in the world of chess cheating can really look like.

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Key Points & Conversation Segments

1. Opening Shots at Chess Culture (00:00–04:00)

• Julian expresses a love for games—with one main rule:

  "Anyone who's not playing a board game fairly should go right to prison." (00:12)

• The hosts joke that this doc is about miserable people (“No one's having any fun…”) and tease the chaos to come.
• Early Quote from Hans Niemann highlights the scandal’s notoriety:

  "Every conversation I have about chess will eventually discuss anal beads." — Hans Niemann (01:53)

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2. Meet the Key Characters (04:00–16:00)

Hans Niemann – “Insufferable, insecure loser”

• Hans moves solo to NYC at 16, claims obsessive study, but the hosts immediately doubt his mythmaking and presentation.
• Patrick references The Social Network:

  "You're gonna go through life thinking girls don't like you because you're a nerd… It'll be because you're an asshole." (04:37)

Chess.com Bros (Danny and Eric) – “Cool chess guys”

• These muscle-bound site founders want you to know chess isn't just for "old white guys from Russia."
• “They want everyone to know that hot guys like them play chess too.” — Patrick (06:26)
• Julian laments the total lack of women in the documentary, despite the queen being the most powerful piece.

  “We also don’t meet a single woman in this whole thing. Which is like—considering the queen is the most powerful piece on the chessboard—but I digress.” (07:27)

Magnus Carlsen – Stoic World Champ

• The Norwegian grandmaster, 13 years on top, is understated:

  “I’m relatively bright, but I’m no genius. I’m just better at chess than you are.” (16:10)

• Shown blindfolded, playing ten boards at once—the polar opposite of Hans’ bluster.

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3. Chess.com, Streaming, and the “Influencer Era” (09:12–14:10)

• Chess.com’s wild COVID and “Queen’s Gambit” boom; users soar to 5 million daily (11:12).
• Everyone from grandmas to “gay dads” are now on Chess.com. Streaming chess on Twitch is explained, with Hans as the classic hate-watch villain:

  “He’s got the villain narrative that he gives himself from minute one. It starts with him eating Doritos live while he’s playing chess.” (13:33)

• Commentary on Hans’ screaming Twitch persona—both grating and irresistible for attracting attention.

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4. The Road to Scandal – Over-the-Board vs. Online Chess (18:12–27:14)

• Over-the-board chess has real gravitas—players “see the pain in their eyes” when they lose, sometimes sobbing or collapsing (18:30).
• Hans’s underdog story: allegedly hustling in Washington Square Park as a teen.
• Hans’ rapid climb to the elite (despite never producing a legendary game) raises suspicion in the chess world.

  “A lot of the players who eventually make it to the top, there’s some defining game or moment… Hans never had any of those moments.” — Chess commentator (22:50)

• At a key Miami crypto event, Hans loses badly—until he suddenly (and suspiciously) beats Magnus.

  “He just looks at the camera and goes, ‘Just speaks for itself,’ and then runs away as the interviewer is like chasing him down the hall.” (25:30)

• The oddity of Hans going silent after grand victories—contrary to his usual loud persona—plants “seed of cheating.”

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5. The Scandal Breaks: Magnus Accuses Hans (33:02–43:53)

• The tournament in St. Louis (Sinquefield Cup): Hans starts strong and defeats Magnus with uncanny precision.
• Magnus, suspicious, withdraws from the event, effectively accusing Hans without naming him.

  “He uses this very famous [soccer] clip: ‘I prefer not to speak. If I speak, I’ll be in big trouble.’” (43:20)

• The chess world explodes: how could Hans have possibly “guessed” the one ultra-obscure opening Magnus tried?

  “There are over 10,000 possible opening moves… The idea Hans looked into that one that morning—it’s a 1 in 10,000 chance.” (36:12)

• Anal beads enter the chat, literally:

  “Someone introduces the idea of cheating through vibrating anal beads. And that is all anybody needed for all the late night shows to pick it up.” — Patrick (44:36)

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6. Chess.com’s Role and Hans’ Cheating Record (39:00–54:48)

Chess.com Founders Covering for Hans:

• Danny admits, after much pressure, they’ve “known Hans was cheating from the start” but quietly let him change accounts to avoid scandal.

  “Danny helps Hans out of this bind, which is insane and a major conflict of interest.” — Patrick (40:29)

• Evidence reveals Hans cheated in “well over 100 online games.”
• Julian and Patrick point out the absurdity of Chess.com claiming their anti-cheating tech can analyze real-life games (with zero actual proof).

Hans’s Changing Story:

• In public, Hans admits to limited teenage cheating; in private, evidence shows much longer, broader deception.

  “What’s a cheater? Always a cheater.” — Patrick (49:00)

• Massive $80 million Chess.com–Magnus merger happens in parallel, fueling Hans’s claim of a conspiracy.

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7. What Constitutes Proof? And Where Are the Women? (54:00–59:17)

• Hosts remain frustrated: Chess.com claims no over-the-board cheating “evidence”—but reveals nothing about their process.

  “How would your anti-cheating technology detect an anal bead? I’m not saying that’s how he did it but like what if he did? Show me the report. Show your work.” — Julian (56:06)

• Julian and Patrick repeatedly highlight the glaring lack of women.

  “There have got to be incredible female chess players, but none of them are the 10 best in the world. This is bullshit.” — Julian (28:04)

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8. The Aftermath: Lawsuits and Public Fallout (57:11–60:00)

• Hans sues everyone (Magnus, Chess.com, et al.) for $100 million; lawsuit settles out of court, Hans is reinstated.
• Magnus remains the king of chess, unfazed.

  “All Hans wants is the fight. If we just stop talking about him, maybe he’ll go away.” — Patrick (58:10)

• Hans returns to high-level play, but loses hard in a Paris rematch against Magnus before babbling about seeing “the future.”

  “He’s so angry and so insecure… I kind of wonder if we won’t be covering another documentary about Hans in the future.” — Patrick (59:32)

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “Genius comes at a price, he laments. It’s like this guy, immediately you’re like—oh, I hate him.”
  — Patrick (03:24)

• “Dating you is like dating a Stairmaster.”
  — Julian, quoting The Social Network (04:55)

• “When you get your pawn to the other side, it gets promoted to a queen—the most powerful piece on the board. Of course, the queen... We also don’t meet a single woman in this whole thing.”
  — Patrick (07:26)

• “It just shows us that everything he’s saying is a lie. Where’s his parents? Where is anybody? Somebody that knew him in high school.”
  — Julian (21:20)

• On the “anal beads” theory:

  “Now everyone not in the chess world gives a shit because someone mentioned anal beads. Talk about queening!” — Patrick (44:36, 44:52)

• “There are 10,000+ opening moves. The idea Hans just happened to look up that specific one? It’s a 1 in 10,000 chance…and the other guy says, but it’s possible.”
  — Julian (36:12)

• “What’s a cheater? Always a cheater. If I cared about his career, I would unsubscribe from everything. You can’t believe a word this guy says.”
  — Patrick (48:56, 49:00)

• “You know what I wonder? If we won’t be covering another documentary about Hans in the future.”
  — Patrick (59:33)

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The Hosts’ Take (Recurring Themes)

• Consistent skepticism toward both Hans’ self-presentation and Chess.com’s handling of the scandal.
• Sharp critique of the absence of women in elite chess—even as the queen is the game’s most powerful piece.
• Wry amusement at the “anal beads” meme and how quickly it became the focus for anyone outside serious chess.
• Relentless mocking of Hans’ melodramatic, self-victimizing persona, while both hosts admit: it’s great entertainment.

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Conclusion

Julian and Patrick wrap up by marveling at the wild ride of Untold: Chess Mates—equal parts chess nerdery, bad reality TV, Silicon Valley ego-fest, and viral booty jokes. They celebrate Magnus’s quiet dominance, bemoan the lack of women in the sport, and remain unsatisfied by claims of “no evidence” of over-the-board cheating. The episode ends with hearty skepticism about all the players involved, deep certainty Hans Niemann is “always a cheater,” and a dark, hilarious hint that perhaps True Crime Obsessed will eventually return to the strange world of Hans for a future, darker documentary.

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For Next Week…

Stay tuned for their next recap: The Grindr Killer Scandal (HBO Max/Discovery+).

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Transcript

[Julian Benzavale]

Can I just say, I love games. I love games.

[Patrick Hines]

No, but no one's having any fun.

[Julian Benzavale]

But I also really, really believe that games, when I mean games, I mean like board games. I love games.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm the same.

[Julian Benzavale]

Of course, board games should be played fairly. And anyone who's not playing a board game fairly should go right to prison.

[Patrick Hines]

What happened?

[Julian Benzavale]

We're gonna find out.

[Patrick Hines]

No, I mean, I thought, like, you had a bad night last night. No, no, no.

[Julian Benzavale]

I'm keep that to myself. It's not my household, but it is my family. But I'm gonna leave it there.

[Patrick Hines]

Ok. Hi.

[Julian Benzavale]

Julian Benzavale.

[Patrick Hines]

Hello. Patrick Hines.

[Julian Benzavale]

Bam. Join us over on the YouTube. We have almost 425,000 subscribers.

[Patrick Hines]

That's insane.

[Julian Benzavale]

It has happened very, very fast.

[Patrick Hines]

That is so.

[Julian Benzavale]

Our videos are getting almost 100,000 views. Fam. It is wild. It is really fun. Go check it out. What's the. Oh, Patreon. Yeah, tell them.

[Patrick Hines]

We have a Patreon where we do a lot of things. We have ad free versions of these episodes. We also do the series things. We're doing that, trust me. The False Prophet doc on Netflix. And we also do, like, after party. Sometimes we send you stuff in the mail. We have a lot of different tiers.

[Julian Benzavale]

I just recorded a whole after party with you about the Gilgo beach serial killer because I was sort of like, didn't know what really went down there. So I watched that NBC doc. It's not a recap, but it's where I got all my information from. So if you're interested in that one, that's at the $7 after party tier. We're doing amazing things at the $20T here as well. We did the America's Next Top Model recap just for the hero bells.

[Patrick Hines]

We just did that Dateline episode, the ruse. Yeah, like 30 minute Dateline episode. That was jam packed.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yep. And our June Pride mailing for the hero bell. Absolutely the best one we've ever done.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. We also have drag bingo from time to time.

[Julian Benzavale]

We do four times a year. Girl. What are we talking about today?

[Patrick Hines]

This is on Netflix. This is from the untold series Malice at the Palace. You may remember Mal at the Palace. Three up. My favorite quote. This one is called Chessmates. It's about a bunch of people who are kind of miserable.

[Hans Niemann]

My entire life and career has been destroyed and I have to live with the fact that every conversation I have about chess will eventually discuss anal beads.

[Danny from Chess.com]

Cheating has been happening in chess for hundreds of years.

[Magnus Carlsen]

I felt that I was not playing A human.

[Hans Niemann]

He's entered a level of paranoia that is not like sane.

[Danny from Chess.com]

We had Magnus Carlsen, the greatest of all time.

[Magnus Carlsen]

I've been the best player in the

[Julian Benzavale]

world for 13 years.

[Magnus Carlsen]

I only know when I sit down at the board, I am better than the other guy.

[Danny from Chess.com]

The young, talented American with an insane amount of self confidence. I am a God. He's got bravado.

[Hans Niemann]

The range is not for the camera.

[Patrick Hines]

You missed it all.

[Hans Niemann]

Can't be a nice guy to be a champion.

[Julian Benzavale]

Unfortunately, Carlsen lost to this younger player,

[Patrick Hines]

sending the chess world into chaos.

[Danny from Chess.com]

They were paranoid, thinking he was getting help from somewhere else. He could have gotten a signal. Maybe it was anal beads.

[Hans Niemann]

Don't understand how you could even think that would be possible.

[Julian Benzavale]

So, girl, we open in this tiny, disgusting New York City apartment. There's food everywhere, and I think that tells you everything you need to know. My note here is that this person's apartment makes Steven Avery's bathroom look like a suite at the Waldorf Astoria.

[Patrick Hines]

Okay, so this guy's name is Hans Niemann. He's a chess grandmaster. He's an insufferable, insecure loser.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Not my kind of guy kind of person.

[Julian Benzavale]

I really like chess. I am not good at it, but I like.

[Patrick Hines]

I agree.

[Julian Benzavale]

This whole, like, the grand master of it all. We go from zero to Game of Thrones very, very fast.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And also like these names, but like, he's whining about how hard it is to be so smart. Genius comes at a price. He laments. It's like this guy, immediately you're like, oh, I hate him.

[Julian Benzavale]

I also am just calling bullshit on his backstory.

[Patrick Hines]

So everything we hear about Hans is from Hans.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So like, no one's here. Call him out on his shit.

[Julian Benzavale]

And he tells us, like, just enough, but, like, not very much. He says at 16, he told his parents he was going to move to New York. Now, he apparently lived in Connecticut, but he sounds like he's from the Netherlands or something. He sounds like he's from a foreign country. He says at 16, he moves to New York to live alone. He was going to pay for it himself. He was going to be the best chess player in the world. That took precedence over living with his family and having security. He just had to play chess all the time.

[Patrick Hines]

And his parents said, okay, okay, six year old. Here, take a boatload of money. Go with God. God bless. Merry Christmas.

[Hans Niemann]

He says, there's periods where I didn't speak to a single person for two months, but I used to go in these like 30 hour benders. I wouldn't sleep and I would literally just stay up, solve them chess puzzles non stop. I just consumed everything I could about chess. I liked to watch interviews of past players and I'd analyze their games. I'd be working on the openings, absorbing everything I could.

[Patrick Hines]

This guy's also going to be like, I went so long without talking to people. People don't like me. Never has that scene that I love from the Social Network been more appropriate.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah, yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

She's like, you're going to be a very successful computer person and you're going to go through life thinking that girls don't like you because you're a nerd. I want you to know from the bottom of my heart that that's not true. It'll be because you're an asshole.

[Julian Benzavale]

That's great. You know, my other. My favorite line from that movie is dating you is like dating a Stairmaster.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh my God. My favorite thing is Andrew Rawfriend. Sorry, my Prada's at the cleaners along with my hoodie and my fucking flip flops. Pretentious douchebag.

[Julian Benzavale]

Dr.

[Patrick Hines]

Anyway, but that quote is so. This guy's going to be like, I was so bullied. I was so. Look, we hate bullies. I understand that. But this guy is also a bully. He is a bully and like a total nightmare. And so he's going to hear a lot, like lamenting about how hard it is to be him. And it's like, no, you don't have any friends because of who you are.

[Julian Benzavale]

And chess, I get it. Chess is very. I didn't know anything about it. I actually got onto Chess.com like, like years ago. We'll get to them in a second. But like, I can understand that that becomes a thing that you want to get better at. This guy has like a laser focused obsession. Obsess. Obsession with it.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, that's what he says. I don't even really believe it at all. But you know, but he says his whole life was studying chess, watching matches, watching old interviews, playing thousands of games online on where on chess.com.

[Julian Benzavale]

so we learn every great player in the world is on Chess.com. i did not know this. Daisy and I play chess on chess.com. so I didn't. I just thought it was like for grandmas. Like, I thought it was for grandmas and gay dads.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, here's the thing. Danny and Eric are here.

[Danny from Chess.com]

It would be correct to say we don't look like the average chess player when I say chess player. People think of an old white guy from Russia. Chess is not cool. It's super hard. It's only for nerds. It's not something that's for me. And that's really a big reason why Chess.com has the pawn as the logo.

[Patrick Hines]

They want everyone to know that hot guys like them play chess too. It's not just all white guys in Russia. Everybody.

[Julian Benzavale]

We are at the gym with them, watching them like swing kettlebells. It is the douchiest introduction. We' it in a minute.

[Patrick Hines]

So, like everyone sat down for this documentary thinking that they are going to come out smelling like a rose. And nobody does.

[Julian Benzavale]

No. Because these two totally have a shit to hide.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Benzavale]

Their whole M.O. is like, we're not regular chess players. We're cool chess players.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Can I say one thing? They did mention about, like, why their logo is the pawn.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And the pawn. The thing about the pawn. If you don't know. And I'm not a chess.

[Julian Benzavale]

I love how you say that word, pawn. There's a W. I'm not giving you shit. I really love how you say it.

[Patrick Hines]

Florida. Aaron Crayon.

[Julian Benzavale]

I color with crayons.

[Patrick Hines]

No, no. Oh, yeah. No. Everyone says orange and Florida.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And I'm like, orange and Florida.

[Julian Benzavale]

Listen. I'd say pawns all day. I'm obsessed.

[Patrick Hines]

The thing about the pawn is that when you get your pawn to the other end of the board gets promoted and you can choose any other piece that you want except for a pawn,

[Julian Benzavale]

you know who's great at that Daisy Tipton height.

[Patrick Hines]

It's the best. But the thing about the queen and chess is the queen is the most powerful piece on the board. She go in any direction she wants, as many spaces as she wants. Of course the queen. We also don't meet a single woman in this whole thing. Which is like considering the queen is the most powerful piece on the chess 100. But I digress. But anyway, when you get little pawn to the other side safely and they turn into a queen and it's hard,

[Julian Benzavale]

very hard to do that.

[Patrick Hines]

Which is what? Queening.

[Julian Benzavale]

Oh, I did know that.

[Patrick Hines]

Queen out on the chest.

[Julian Benzavale]

I did know that.

[Patrick Hines]

I thought that was cute.

[Julian Benzavale]

I also think these two might be a little queenie themselves. Girl earn in his back. Look, this is about getting the money that you have already earned when you want it. Because waiting is the worst. And getting paid twice a month doesn't always work for everybody.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And we also like. It's not just that. Sometimes you just want to. I don't know like, do a nice thing for yourself. Go to the movies. You need to get some groceries. Sometimes you just, like, need a little bit of your paycheck a little bit sooner.

[Julian Benzavale]

Look, with Earn in, you can access up to $150 a day of money you've already earned, plus up to $1,000 between paychecks. That's amazing.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And so they have tips, but tips are optional. And standard transfers take one to two business days with no mandatory fees. If you want an expedited transfer, you could totally do that. They start at 399 and cap at 599.

[Julian Benzavale]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Benzavale]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Benzavale]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Benzavale]

Access limits are based on your earnings and risk factors. Standard cash outs take one to two business days with no mandatory fees.

[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Benzavale]

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[Patrick Hines]

There you have it.

[Julian Benzavale]

There you go.

[Patrick Hines]

Okay. Chess.com started in 2005, which I thought was crazy, because I was like, who owned Chess.com before that? I know you're telling me that the URL was just sitting there empty, unowned, until these two guys came along.

[Julian Benzavale]

Do you know that I.

[Patrick Hines]

Gym rats.

[Julian Benzavale]

I know the guy who owned the broadway.com and then sold it to broadway.com like, he bought.

[Patrick Hines]

He had the Broadway and then he dropped the.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. But he owned broadway.com and he sold it for what?

[Patrick Hines]

I'm curious.

[Julian Benzavale]

Probably not that much. I. Our friend Robbie Roselle also knows this guy, and he didn't make very much money on it, I don't think.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm not asking about the money. I was asking, like, why was he. Why did he buy?

[Julian Benzavale]

Because I think that some people. There was a time that you would buy URLs thinking, like, this will be valuable someday and somebody will buy it from me. It must have been one of those.

[Patrick Hines]

He didn't want to do anything with it.

[Julian Benzavale]

No, he wanted to sell it. He wanted to, like, own it and then sell it, which is what he did. But I bet he could have gotten more.

[Patrick Hines]

Maybe that's what happened.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah. But these guys are saying they wanted to build the MySpace of chess. It opened in 2007. They're telling us they're Turning down jobs at Facebook. They're turning down jobs at YouTube.

[Patrick Hines]

They were begging, knocking down doors to try to get these guys to work for them.

[Julian Benzavale]

And every. Exactly. Everybody is telling these guys that, like, chess would never be big enough to be investable.

[Patrick Hines]

They're getting laughed out of offices in Silicon Valley. I'm like, okay, I know, maybe it's not the chess. But then they're like, oh, we, like, we were laughed out of all the offices until Covid. And I'm like, right, 15 years after you bought Chess.com. i know. Am I right? Math? Yeah. 2020.

[Julian Benzavale]

Meanwhile, Trump is here.

[Patrick Hines]

We get two jump scares. Right away, we get that fudgeing piece of shit and that goddamn Imagine video back to back.

[Julian Benzavale]

I'm like, I know.

[Patrick Hines]

Come on. I thought we were going to have fun today talking about some chess. I'm like, why am I looking at this fucking stupid.

[Julian Benzavale]

We're through the hard part. I think those are. Those are to. But just dot com, of course. Like, America's Next Top Model blows up during the pandemic.

[Danny from Chess.com]

Each country that got locked down, registration spike. Italy was first to lock down. And every country as it got locked down, registrations bumping up 4 or 5x overnight. We literally did go from a million daily active users to 5,6 million daily active people playing chess. It was crazy.

[Julian Benzavale]

As countries are being locked down, Chess.com is seeing a spike in their. In their subscriberships. Like, Italy is the first one to be locked down. Italy's going nuts for Chess.com, which I

[Patrick Hines]

thought was a very cool, nerdy thing where you can, like, actually see the spikes based on the country. Then the Queen's Gambit comes out on Netflix. Now everyone's into chess.

[Julian Benzavale]

I knew that was a thing. Never watched it. Did you watch that?

[Patrick Hines]

I did not watch the Queen's Gambit, but I know people did and loved it.

[Julian Benzavale]

People loved it. Yeah. So they go from 1 million users per day to 5 million users per day.

[Patrick Hines]

They claim they're worth close to $1 billion. Eric's like, that's my guess. Do I care for not for sale, Eric? Yes, you do.

[Julian Benzavale]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

It's so just say it. That I do. $1 billion is fucking crazy.

[Julian Benzavale]

But also, like, we're going to hear,

[Patrick Hines]

like would say, you know what's cool? A billion dollars. I'm just saying, truly.

[Julian Benzavale]

And like, they're going to say later, I don't just have $100 million. Yes, you do. You just told us that you did.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, I know that. I know that they had at least 80 I digress again, but this is

[Julian Benzavale]

the other thing too about Chess.com is that influencers are like playing chess on Chess.com and it's like becoming a thing. I. I've been on Chess.com for a year. I had no idea that it was cool. I had no idea.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, I think that the other people are cool, but these are, these, these influencers are like taking over and like live streaming.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And so Danny and Eric, that just dot com guys are going to use the influencers to grow their website even more. Like they want to take advantage because.

[Julian Benzavale]

And this is a thing I didn't know. My friend Matt does this. He like plays video games on Twitch. And like, so that's what they're doing here that like, you can like pay to watch people play chess. Which I guess if you're like super into it or you want to learn how to play better or whatever. But Guy Hans is on there.

[Danny from Chess.com]

Here was a young, talented American with an insane amount of self confidence.

[Julian Benzavale]

Let's be civil, let's be mature and

[Hans Niemann]

let's continue with the show.

[Danny from Chess.com]

He's got bravado and it made sense for us to work together and try to help him become a streaming star.

[Julian Benzavale]

And he's just insane.

[Patrick Hines]

He's screaming.

[Julian Benzavale]

He's mentally unwell, this guy. He's screaming. He's always streaming on Twitch and I'm just like. Also, microphones were not built for that kind of screaming back then.

[Patrick Hines]

Screaming into like audio levels.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yes. It's so hard to listen to. Like, who enjoys this?

[Patrick Hines]

Well, I also, like, this is exactly what he wants, so. But I'm going to say it anyway. So congratulations, Hans. You got me.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

This kind of behavior ensures I'm going to root against you, like, no questions asked. Like, the minute I see that bullshit, I'm like, whoever the other person is, I'm rooting for them.

[Julian Benzavale]

He like, he's got the villain narrative that he gives himself from minute one. It starts with him eating Doritos live while he's playing chess.

[Patrick Hines]

Ass.

[Julian Benzavale]

Who is watching people eat Doritos. And then he's like, not even folding the bag up and just putting it over here. Then we cut to his apartment and it is a fucking pigsty.

[Patrick Hines]

It's rage baiting.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

But Danny from Chess.com essentially became a talent scout because he was. He's looking for the new influencer. That's really going to like raise their profile even more.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So Danny from Chess.com for whatever reason, loves this whole act. I promise you there were cool Girls and women on that site. But we're going to the loudest guy in the room.

[Julian Benzavale]

And we never see a. A single one. Not a. Any of the chess competitions we're about to go to. Like, there are no women in sight.

[Patrick Hines]

Not one. So Danny from Chess.com loves this whole act because he knows it's going to get some. A lot of attention. And he also then starts to mentor Hans, which is very important to note. Put a pin in that.

[Julian Benzavale]

We meet Hikaru Nakamura. He's another grandmaster. He's currently ranked number three in the world. He's on chess.com so people like him are also there, like actual grandmasters. And he's like, this is bullshit.

[Patrick Hines]

Because it goes from Hans literally screaming to Hikaru being like, we're gonna take it nice and slow. We're just gonna take a very chill game.

[Chess commentator]

And he literally says, I didn't really particularly care for his brand of antics.

[Patrick Hines]

No.

[Chess commentator]

The old school chess establishment, the view is that you'd be very proper. When you win, you say, okay, I won the game. You lose. Okay, Guy played better than me. But Han, he was very wild. When he lost games, he would scream, he'd yell. Also, when he would win some games, he'd be like, oh, wow, I'm the greatest in the world.

[Julian Benzavale]

I am a God.

[Hans Niemann]

Now sit the fuck down.

[Patrick Hines]

I did not care for his brand of antics. And that's. Antics is a great word.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Because the only thing genuine about Hans is his raging insecurity, because you better believe that shit is real.

[Julian Benzavale]

I also love, like, we get Hans's worldview right away. He's like, why do I have to be a nice guy? Nice guys finished last. He goes, you can't be a nice guy and be a champion. Unfortunately. Yes. You fudgeing. Can I Wholeheartedly. Somebody didn't go to the Heiress tour.

[Patrick Hines]

No.

[Julian Benzavale]

You know what I mean? Prime example of, like, leading with kindness.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. You know, this guy's an asshole.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

But, like, the whole thing about this is that the old school way of chess is not like this. Other than, like, it can be very gatekeepy, it can be very cliquish. Like, that's all fine, but at the, like, you won. You're like, I won the game. You lost. You say, you know what? I'll do better next time. It's not like this grandstanding and peacocking and bullshit right? From some, like, chump is not. It's very disrespectful to the community.

[Julian Benzavale]

And this is where we go to Norway we meet Magnus Carlsen. Now he's the world champion. And like, this guy, we. Our introduction to him is. He's on the sidewalk having people throw chessboards at him to sign. He's autographing chessboards.

[Patrick Hines]

He's been the best player in the world for the last 13 years. He's Norwegian. He's. No, not nonsense. And he looks just enough like Andrew Reynolds for me to mention the resemblance.

[Julian Benzavale]

100%. Yeah, enough. And he's here to, like, be humble. He's like, I'm not remarkable. I can't believe I'm this good at anything. I'm relatively bright, but I'm no genius.

[Patrick Hines]

But I kind of liked how he said. He was like, I'm. I'm good at this. Like, I'm not a genius because of that. I'm not amazing. I'm just better at chess than you are.

[Julian Benzavale]

Well. And he, like, we. In the cold open of this thing, like, we see how good he really is.

[Patrick Hines]

He's very good.

[Julian Benzavale]

And it's. It transcends even being good. I think, like, his brain is just wired in a way that, like, you know, people who, like, like, like, don't see color. They see color, but they hear music. And so his brain is. It's like he got struck by lightning or something at some point, and it just, like, changed him so that he. Like, we see him blindfolded with 10 chessboards behind him. He's playing all 10 of them blindfolded, and he wins every game and not screaming about it. No.

[Patrick Hines]

And I do think it's cool that Magnus is like, this is a thing I can do.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

I really like it. I'm crazy good at it. I'm better at it than you are, and that's cool. But I. I don't know what to tell you.

[Julian Benzavale]

And he even says that he's like, sometimes I feel like I don't deserve it because other people have worked so much harder. Magnus.

[Patrick Hines]

It's almost like the personification of money talks, wealth, whispers and Magnus.

[Julian Benzavale]

And like.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, it doesn't scream Hans. It's just, you know, these guys that we see. I'm saying guys because we only see men.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, that we see just being very, like, chill and cool. This is like, something they can do.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah. And like, he talks about having seen Hans play chess online. He's like, I don't know. I thought his Anders were kind of entertaining. He's like, he was good, but I would still, like, easily kick this guy's ass.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, sure. But, well, they play online once Magnus

[Magnus Carlsen]

and Hans, he was pretty de decent, but I still won the game quite easily.

[Patrick Hines]

Mate.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Very pleasing. He's a good player who happens to be American and talk a lot.

[Patrick Hines]

And when he wins, he goes, mate. Very pleasing.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

That's how he wins a game.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

He's the best chess player in the world 13 years running.

[Julian Benzavale]

We learned too that Hans is now winning $30,000 a month on Chess.com says Hans. He right. He's one of one of the top players beating the grandmast and like on. We learn here too that like online chess is one thing, but the real deal is the over the board. It's the in person sitting down, looking your opponent, they say, breathing the same air. They say when you beat someone, you can see the pain in their eyes.

[Patrick Hines]

We see a guy falling off his chair backwards. Another guy is sobbing hysterically and needs to be comforted. Gentlemen, get grips on yourself.

[Julian Benzavale]

I was like looking for the lease to his house that he like threw onto the. You know what I mean? I'm like, what are we gambling for here?

[Patrick Hines]

Sobbing. Yeah, sobbing hysterically.

[Julian Benzavale]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

We're too emotional. Anyway, doesn't matter. So the thing about chess ratings, we're told it's very simple. You start at zero, you work your way up to the world championship level. That's 2800 and above.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah. Hans was ranked at 2466. He says nothing special, but his life mission was to become the best in the world.

[Patrick Hines]

And Magnus is of course over 2800. He's 2862.

[Julian Benzavale]

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[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And the thing I love about it is that you have your own design studio. So they have hundreds of ready to use templates. So Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store that matches your brand's specific style.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah, fam. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all E commerce in the United States. From household names like true crime obsessed podcast to brands that are just getting started.

[Patrick Hines]

You guys exactly. Always want to be a household name, you know.

[Julian Benzavale]

Thank you.

[Patrick Hines]

And you can get the word out. Like you have a marketing team behind you. You can easily create email and social media campaigns wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling. Like out in the world.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah. So fam it's time to turn those what ifs into with Shopify today.

[Patrick Hines]

Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com/upstick obsessed.

[Julian Benzavale]

Go to shopify.com obsessed.

[Patrick Hines]

That's shopify.com obsessed.

[Julian Benzavale]

So Hans is the. He's got to go to the over the board circuit. He's still in high school. This is when he's like. He's getting himself offline to, like, go play games in person.

[Hans Niemann]

I was an absolute maniac and played every tournament that I could.

[Danny from Chess.com]

I. I broke the record for the

[Hans Niemann]

amount of games played in one year. I have played 200, 161 games in one year.

[Julian Benzavale]

He played 261 games that year. Apparently he broke a record, says Hans.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, okay.

[Julian Benzavale]

How exciting is that?

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, cool for you, Hans. It would be cool if you were, like, an interesting person.

[Julian Benzavale]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

You know, if that was, like, your cool chess journey. But, like, you're a dick and I don't care.

[Julian Benzavale]

Every time you start a chess game, it really does. The possibilities do feel endless. You know what I mean? When you start a chess game, you're like, I could maybe win this thing.

[Patrick Hines]

And then it's like, you know, once again, like, oh, shit.

[Julian Benzavale]

And then you do or you don't.

[Patrick Hines]

And then.

[Julian Benzavale]

And then you just finish your Chipotle and get on with your day, and

[Patrick Hines]

then you just get on with your life, you know? And sometimes you're the best chess player in the world 13 years running.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And sometimes you're not. Sometimes you're not. We don't need to flip backwards in our chair. No, gentlemen, this guy's not from Connecticut.

[Julian Benzavale]

I don't buy a word of his back.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, he could be, like, from. He could be born somewhere else and then, like, from Connecticut. You know what I mean?

[Julian Benzavale]

Okay, that makes sense. But like, once again, though, it just shows us that, like, everything he's saying is a lie. Because, like, we get. Where's his parents? Where is anybody? Somebody that knew him in High School.

[Patrick Hines]

Zero. So Hans is invited to Miami for the FTC's Crypto Cup. Barf.

[Julian Benzavale]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

It's an esports chess event. Spectacular. I'm like, jesus, calm down.

[Julian Benzavale]

But the only time we do see women is when they're, like, in bikinis being fan girls. They make them look like chess groupies, like, in bikinis at the pool here for this, like, Chess Open. I will say, every time they cut to an audience at these chess tournaments, these people are young and hip. They're all drinking. It's like an event because it's like

[Patrick Hines]

a cool, interesting thing to do.

[Julian Benzavale]

It just really opened my eyes to, like, who is participating in all of this?

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, like, playing chess. Well, like, I always say this. I love seeing people do something that they're really good at and enjoy it.

[Julian Benzavale]

Paint your room. Well, I can't.

[Patrick Hines]

But it's also like. It's like golf. You have to be really quiet, right? And everyone takes it really, really seriously. If you don't take it seriously, they're gonna start screaming or falling backwards out of their chair or sobbing hysterically or whatever.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And it's like, I. Like, I would be like, woo. Like, I would wanna cheer for my person. Yeah, you can't do that.

[Julian Benzavale]

You can't do that.

[Patrick Hines]

There's no fun at all here.

[Julian Benzavale]

Go, Mike.

[Patrick Hines]

Y. Yeah. I'd be escorted out.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah. Ma'. Am.

[Patrick Hines]

Sorry. But Hans is running his mouth as per usual, screaming about how he's going to beat every single person there, especially Magnus. It cut to Magnus. He's like, this child is delusional. Playing as a top chess player. He is not that.

[Julian Benzavale]

We also hear somebody here says to

[Chess commentator]

us, a lot of the players who eventually make it to the top, there's some defining game or moment very early in their careers, like this great game, this masterpiece they play, that's just talked about. You step back, you look at them, you're like, wow, this is amazing. Amazing. They're destined for greatness. And Hans never had any of those moments. In order to be the best, you have to beat the best. He needed legitimacy.

[Julian Benzavale]

Hans never had that moment.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, he's doing very poorly at this crypto thing. He's losing all of his games. And Magnus says it is very, very clear that he completely lacks any understanding of chess as a whole. Like, he was barely lasting 15 moves. It doesn't make any sense that he was there. And the whole thing about chess, as they say, when they say, like, playing chess, not checkers, and you have to think more than 15 moves ahead.

[Julian Benzavale]

That's why I'm not very good at it.

[Patrick Hines]

And this kid is not doing that. And he doesn't even understand the concept of, like, certain openings or certain moves. Like, sometimes, you know, like, if I do this, they're gonna do that, and I sacrifice the bishop or whatever, the pawn, the rook, whatever, Right? So, like, but he's the knight. He's, like, totally misunderstanding everything about the game.

[Julian Benzavale]

Memorizing, by the way, how those pieces move was not an easy process.

[Patrick Hines]

What does the rook do?

[Julian Benzavale]

Which one is the Rook. Is it the.

[Patrick Hines]

The is the rook the little building looking thing.

[Julian Benzavale]

Oh, that's can go like as many spaces as you want in a straight line.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julian Benzavale]

So like the. The bishop goes diagonally. The knight goes two up and one over or one over and two up.

[Patrick Hines]

That's the one I get stuck on. That's the one I'm like, wait, what? I feel like I'm doing. The.

[Julian Benzavale]

That's the one that's the hardest to predict the other person's next move.

[Patrick Hines]

They really. Yeah.

[Julian Benzavale]

And then the king can only go one square in any direction. And then the queen can go in

[Patrick Hines]

wherever the she wants.

[Julian Benzavale]

Wherever the she wants. So I memorized it and I. And I do enjoy playing it.

[Patrick Hines]

And the pawn can only go one.

[Julian Benzavale]

It goes two or one.

[Patrick Hines]

So the first time you can do two and if you don't do two on the first, you can't do it.

[Julian Benzavale]

And you can only knock people out diagonally. And only diagonally going up.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes. Oh, yeah. You can't go backwards.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah, done. We should play chess sometime.

[Patrick Hines]

Move over, Magnus. No Magnus, please. Magnus and Hans sit down to play. Magnus is doing amazing. And Hans is about to lose, of course. But then at the very, very, very last second, he like pulls something out of of the thin air and he turns it around in the last second and beats Magnus.

[Julian Benzavale]

Magnus 2 camera today says I had

[Magnus Carlsen]

no chance in that game whatsoever. Which was really weird. Like we're not on the same level. Like I'm a lot better than you are. It was just a complete beatdown.

[Julian Benzavale]

Hans beats the number one guy in

[Patrick Hines]

the world and he's the lowest rated player there.

[Julian Benzavale]

And then he goes outside to be interviewed and the guy's like, so Hans, yesterday was like a terrible day for you, but today you beat the best in the world. Like what do you have to say? And he just looks at the camera and goes. Just speaks for itself.

[Patrick Hines]

And then runs away as the interviewer is like chasing him down the hall. So let's just slow down on this. You're telling me the person who screamed his head off about every single move and every game online, the person who was determined to beat the best player in the world just did that? Yeah, just did what he has been screaming about and he suddenly doesn't want to run his mouth. He's quiet and running away and running away from the cameras and can't answer a question.

[Julian Benzavale]

None of his friends and family are there to support him. Is this person. You know what I so like, since

[Patrick Hines]

when is this guy quiet and not you would think that he'd be grabbing the microphone, running up and down, screaming about how he just beat Magnus, and he's running away from the camera. Since when?

[Julian Benzavale]

The reason is he doesn't want to be asked any questions because he can't answer them. He can't answer it.

[Patrick Hines]

So this chess speak for itself clip goes viral. Some people are loving it because he's, like, shaken up.

[Julian Benzavale]

He's the bad boy of chess or whatever. I know.

[Patrick Hines]

And some people are like, this is fucking weird.

[Julian Benzavale]

So now we get Hans evil villain backstory.

[Hans Niemann]

I was not groomed to be a top chess player, going eight different schools and being bullied at every school I went to for being this sort of chess outcast. So when I was 13, I take the train from Connecticut to New York. There I play against the hustlers for money.

[Julian Benzavale]

At 13, he starts taking the train in from Connecticut to play chess against the hustlers in, like, Washington Square Park.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, these are badass guys.

[Julian Benzavale]

They're great at chess, and they're also just characters. Like, they're here. And, like, they. They're sort of talking about how, like, he was not good and then he got better by playing them because they think they're the best in the world, and they're like. They're actually really proud that this shit bag comes from this culture. And it's a really cool culture. Like, if you're ever, like, in Washington Square park, watch them, because they're like, boom, clock. Boom, clock.

[Patrick Hines]

It's crazy.

[Julian Benzavale]

It's wild.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Yeah. And also, just to be clear, everyone's like, he cheated, right? The fact that he ran away from that interview, like, the seeds are being planted that he's thinking going on here. So now we're at the Sink Fields cup, which is the most prestigious chess tournament in all the land in St. Louis.

[Julian Benzavale]

Can I just say that this whole thing has, like, a Quidditch area to it. The fact that it's called, like, the Sink Quill cup or the Sink Sink, whatever you. Whatever the cup is called.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Benzavale]

I'm like. It just feels very Quidditchy. And then I. I wrote Quidditch. Q, U, I, D, D, I, C, H, and I didn't get the. The red bar. I think that's how you spell it.

[Patrick Hines]

Is that right?

[Julian Benzavale]

I guess.

[Patrick Hines]

There a T in there.

[Julian Benzavale]

I don't know.

[Patrick Hines]

I guess not.

[Julian Benzavale]

According to my computer, there is not.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, if the red bar says so or doesn't say so, but this is the most prestigious chess tournament in all the land. The 10 best players in the world show up. It's like the most watched professional chess event and it takes place in St. Louis. This is no shade to St. Louis. It just caught me off guard that where this big chess thing being played,

[Julian Benzavale]

where are the women? Like, why aren't there. There have got to be incredible female chess players.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm positive of it. But.

[Julian Benzavale]

But none of them are the 10 best in the world. This is bullshit. The fact that there are no women in this tournament means the whole thing's rigged. It has to be.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. It doesn't make any sense.

[Julian Benzavale]

That's wild that we haven't met some amazing female chess.

[Patrick Hines]

But also, like, would you want to do that? Like, I don't want to be here. Like, I know, but, you know, I also.

[Julian Benzavale]

Somebody does, you know, of course.

[Patrick Hines]

That's the thing. It's like, we shouldn't be like, well, I just won't do the thing because everyone else is an asshole. Yeah, like, that's not cool either. So anyway, Magnus is there. Hans is there. This four person Hans fan club is outside with signs.

[Hans Niemann]

There are a couple of girls who showed up to the playing hall. They said they're the Hans Demon fan club.

[Patrick Hines]

I don't think he knows that we're here, so I really hope he comes out and sees us. We love him.

[Hans Niemann]

I did not pay those girls to show up.

[Julian Benzavale]

As the Hans team advanced.

[Hans Niemann]

No, no.

[Patrick Hines]

And Hans wants us to know he definitely didn't pay these women. Hans, you 100% did.

[Julian Benzavale]

I agree. Except that Hans seems the kind of guy that, like, some women would send, like, mail to after he killed people and was in prison. Well, he's got that night stalker air about him.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, because they're holding these signs like, Hans has cool hair. Gen Zs love Hans. And I'm like, Gen Zers. You call yourself Gen Z. You say, I wouldn't be like, hey, millennials love Magnus or whatever.

[Julian Benzavale]

Like, and by the way, if we're doing this, Magnus has the better hair. Like, Magnus for sure has the better

[Patrick Hines]

him next to Andrew Reynolds.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

It's like just enough of a resemblance.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah. And the Magnus hair journey. And I only say this because he's got the hair I would have killed for. Yeah. Is an evolution throughout this whole thing. By the end, he's really got it figured out.

[Patrick Hines]

Great.

[Julian Benzavale]

It's really, really great hair.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. These people could be wanting to, like, jump on the influencer. You know, all attention is good attention.

[Julian Benzavale]

It might be that, but he easily also could have paid them.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, he has a ton of his parents have a ton of money.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So like none of these people want

[Julian Benzavale]

Hans there and like some of them are considering withdrawing from this like huge event just because they're like, how did this kid get here? How did he rise so fast to be one of the top 10 in the freaking world?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. In like the last shows.

[Julian Benzavale]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Benzavale]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Benzavale]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Benzavale]

It's so good. It's the first thing I have every morning fam. Right now Drip drop is offering TCO listeners 20% off. Your first order, go to Drip Drop dotcom and use promo code TCO.

[Patrick Hines]

That's drip drop.com promo code TCO.

[Julian Benzavale]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Benzavale]

No, girl, Rocket Money is back. Look, I'm obsessed with Rocket Money. I use it all the time. This is a personal finance app that helps you get your life together. And for me, I love it because I can see everything in one place. Like I used to scroll through my bank account and just not understand how anything was organized or laid out. With Rocket Money they make it so simple. You see everything all at once.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Especially because now everything, like, forces you to have a subscription. So with Rocket Money, you can track those subscriptions, like you were saying, all in one place. It has the ability to cancel unwanted subscriptions within the app. It's just a few taps. Tip, tip, tap. Good to go.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

They're saving users over 880 million bucks in canceled subscriptions. It's a lot of clams.

[Julian Benzavale]

Incredible. So, yeah, fam. The app consolidates checking, savings, loans, and investments into a single dashboard to give users a clear view of their financial picture. That's what I'm talking about. It's all organized. It's all laid out for you. They will also, like, send you emails. I got an email when I paid a bill. They're like, large transaction detected. Was this really you, girl? I'm like, yes, but thanks for checking.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And you also. You have, like, customizable categories and tags so you can really keep track and personalize it for you. But really my favorite part is being like, I didn't even. I forgot I had that subscription. I don't want it anymore. Cancel it for me, please.

[Julian Benzavale]

Get out of it. Exactly. And they done. Yep. They do it for you. So, fam. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps you find and cancel unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps you lower your bills so you can grow your savings.

[Patrick Hines]

Let Rocket Money help you reach your financial goals faster. Join at rocket money.com/obessed. That's rocket money.com obsessed rocketmoney.com obsessed. Which we are. Day one, Hans is off to a shockingly good start. We're told people cannot believe what they're seeing. And then we, like, jump to day three, the big. The main event, Magnus versus Hans. And Magnus is like, the thing that really sucks about this is that he doesn't trust his opponent, which is not a good place to be when you are sitting down across the board. You should really be saying, like, we're gonna have a good game. We're gonna play to the best of our ability. You shouldn't be like, why am I suspicious of you? Like, that's not really the point.

[Julian Benzavale]

It shouldn't be there at all. And, like, part of this, too, is that, like, there's the whole psychological component to all of this, like, the psychological advantage. And everyone is saying that Magnus should have it because he's been the better player for so long, and. But now maybe Hans has it because he's, like, the weird. Like, the weird one that nobody trusts. So they sit down and Magnus goes first.

[Magnus Carlsen]

So I'm going to try and surprise him in the opening bit. And I pick kind of a rare

[Julian Benzavale]

line, unusual approach by Magnus in the opening.

[Danny from Chess.com]

These types of move orders are chosen to trick your opponent. Frankly, this type of approach is Magnus Carlsen's specialty.

[Magnus Carlsen]

It's a bit of a risky line. And he plays the exact best, best move.

[Julian Benzavale]

Hans has the exact perfect response move, like whatever, the exact right thing to do. When somebody does that opening Hans knows

[Patrick Hines]

to do from like a zillion. This opening is like an old school for the like formally trained people who love chess. Like, super old school. Hans, who learned chess in Washington Square park and there's no formal training, knows the exact right response. He shouldn't have even known what it

[Julian Benzavale]

was, what he was doing. And like, it starts to go downhill for Magnus so fast to the point that I was surprised that Magnus was so outwardly showing his distress because at one point he's like leaned. He's got both of his hands. Everybody is like, no one has ever seen Magnus behave like, you know why?

[Patrick Hines]

Because he is seeing a zillion moves ahead. Yeah. He knows where this is going. So like early on in the game he's like, oh, my God.

[Julian Benzavale]

And meanwhile, Hans is sitting across from him and like Magnus is saying to us now Hans acting like, I totally got this. I'm barely putting any effort in. I know exactly what to do. I'm so much better. This is nothing for me.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, because his ego is such that he can't even like fake it a little bit.

[Julian Benzavale]

Right?

[Patrick Hines]

You act like you're kind of struggling for a second. Yeah, he can't even do that.

[Julian Benzavale]

So Hans wins.

[Patrick Hines]

Hans wins. And his post game interview is once again really weird and suspicious because he can't explain any of the moves he made. Especially like his explanations are not making any sense. And Hans, because they're like, Hans, Yeah, that really obscure, totally crazy opening move for Magnus. Like, how did you know? I mean, the exact right move. That's crazy. Hans response is, I was actually very

[Hans Niemann]

fortunate that this opening came on the board. And I looked at this today.

[Julian Benzavale]

You guessed this opening today?

[Hans Niemann]

I did not guess it, but some miracle I had checked this today. I have no idea why I would check such a ridiculous thing. Such a ridiculous miracle.

[Patrick Hines]

By some miracle that very morning, he actually looked up that ring. Rare, obscure, unusual opening. And I'm like, even to a dummy like me, this seems ridiculous.

[Julian Benzavale]

No. And we're, we're told by the Chess.com guys there are over 10,000 possible opening moves you can make. And they're like. The idea that Hans, that morning, just happened to look into the response to that one. They're like, it's a 1 in 10,000 chance. The other one's like, but it's possible.

[Patrick Hines]

And now I would believe Hans more. Not fully, but a little bit more, if he was like, I knew Magnus was out to get me, so I spent time studying the weirdest, most obscure stuff because I knew, like, that's playing chess, baby.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Really? If he would say that.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

But to be like, out of all of the openings at all the world, I just randomly did this one. What are the odds?

[Julian Benzavale]

And it's like, nobody believes him.

[Patrick Hines]

No. So we meet. Henrik is here, Magnus's dad.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And he's like, yeah, I felt bad that my son was losing, but he wasn't suspicious at all until he spoke to Magnus.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah. Magnus comes back and he's like, dad, that son of a bitch was fucking cheating.

[Patrick Hines]

And his dad's like, oh, all right. Well, let's get to the bottom of it, then.

[Julian Benzavale]

So now we're back with the Chess.com guys, and they're telling us that, like, cheating has been a part of chess, like, from the very beginning of the game, which obviously. Obviously. And now with, like, AI, it's gotten way too easy. And he's saying that with a chess computer, you would beat Magnus Carlsen 1,000 times out of 1,000 times.

[Patrick Hines]

Sure, there's code, there's programs, there's apps. But, like. And online cheating in the online chess world is rampant. It's so insanely easy to cheat. People are doing it all the time. But cheating over the board is a very, very different story.

[Julian Benzavale]

Right. Because they make the point that, like, in other sports, like track and field or bike racing, like, you do the. You do the cheating before the event. You're taking the steroids, you're doing the whatever. But in chess, you have to do it in the moment.

[Patrick Hines]

So Magnus and his dad think that Hans has been cheating.

[Julian Benzavale]

And Magnus even says.

[Patrick Hines]

He explained basically that he had been highly suspicious from the start of the game. This was not Hans playing. He was playing some computer. And I was. What do you mean he was cheating?

[Magnus Carlsen]

I felt that I was not playing a human.

[Julian Benzavale]

It didn't feel like I was playing a person. It felt like I was playing a robot. It felt like I was playing a computer. So Magnus would think about his move, and then all of a sudden, it would just be mechanical, you know, Hans would know exactly what to do.

[Patrick Hines]

To counter and think about how Magnus knows that he's the best chess player in the world 13 years running, which means that he is constantly playing different people his entire career. So he knows what it's like to sit down with someone who's actually going to play the game with him as opposed to cheating through the game.

[Julian Benzavale]

And, and he's played so many times that he knows what it feels like. You're saying like he knows what it feels like to play a person.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Julian Benzavale]

So like when something is off, like, we can take Magnus his word for it because he knows because he, like, this is what he does.

[Patrick Hines]

So they want to talk to Danny from Chess.com because remember, Danny from Chess.com was mentoring Hans. Hans is famous in this world because of Danny. Danny like discovered Hans and thought, let me get the screaming guy who's insufferable into the world of chess. So when Danny calls them back, he's like, I know what this is about. This is about Hans cheating. Right?

[Julian Benzavale]

Right. And so the Chess.com guys are saying that like we found cheaters on our platform early and they're like, here to talk about it. And they're like, when Hans was accused of cheating like early on in, Hans is like, rise to prominence. There were like whispers around the, the office staff that like, ha, Hans must be cheating. And Danny like absolutely does not want to believe it. He's like the biggest cheerleader that, no, Hans is just good and he's getting better. He's definitely not cheating.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, guess what, everybody? Hans cheated on Chess.com and Danny from Chess.com knew. And when people asked him about it sometimes he lied to them and say Hans was not cheating to avoid. And he's like, oh, it's to avoid a scandal because it's in his best interest to keep Chess.com a cheat free site. And I'm like, yeah, you want the money to. Well, but you don't want your reputation damage. You brought him in, you're his mentor and he's been cheating this whole time.

[Julian Benzavale]

These guys, guys totally have blood on their hands with all the stuff that happened.

[Patrick Hines]

And I can't believe we don't talk about it more. Like what? Like there's more to. Okay, so.

[Julian Benzavale]

Well, what happens is, Danny says, unfortunately,

[Danny from Chess.com]

when we peeled back the onion, we saw that Hans had been cheating borderline since the first day he joined Chess.com talking to someone about the fact that we've caught them cheating is a little bit of a well rehearsed script for me. But this call was, was unique. In that Hans immediately started denying. And the moment I told him that this was no longer up for debate, he burst into tears.

[Julian Benzavale]

Hans switches tactics and, like, burst into tears, and he's like, please, please don't ban me, because if you ban me, then everybody will know that I got banned for cheating.

[Patrick Hines]

So Danny helps Hans out of this bind, which is insane and a major conflict of interest and, like, not how they would treat literally anybody else.

[Julian Benzavale]

And also, like, like you were saying before, the reason that Danny helps him out of the bind is because they don't want the scandal on Chess.com, like, if people were to find out that there was cheating happening on Chess.com, the whole thing would go down. So it's like, it's in Danny and dot com's best interest to kind of sweep this under the rug the best they can.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. So Danny lets Hans control the narrative, but he doesn't say anything about cheating. Like, Hans doesn't admit to cheating. What he says to everyone is like, hey, I'm going to close this account and I'm going to start a new account. And, like, that's my new name. And, like, this is where you should follow me now.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And that doesn't say anything about cheating. And Danny lets him do this. They wouldn't let anybody else get Eric.

[Julian Benzavale]

Danny's business partner is like, I was surprised by how generous you were. And then Danny legit looked at the camera. He's like, I was trying to avoid

[Patrick Hines]

a scandal about yourself, Danny.

[Julian Benzavale]

Right. Right. I think that that's what he's saying.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Benzavale]

I think he's. I mean, whatever. This is like, a shitty thing and they should be totally called out for this. But I think Danny is acknowledging, like, we did not want to scandal on

[Patrick Hines]

this because to be clear, Danny put this guy into this world, then lied for him and has been protecting him. Like, this is a much bigger deal than the DOC is presenting. And.

[Julian Benzavale]

Well, and it's the reason the doc exists in the first place, I think, is because. Because Hans got away with it in this venue. Like, I think he thought he could go on to do it in any venue and he would always get away with it.

[Patrick Hines]

And it's so weird because this is when Danny tells us about this big bombshell from this call with Hans.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah. And he, like, he started asking me

[Danny from Chess.com]

specifics, like, what games exactly did I cheat in? How does the algorithm work? Do you think I've ever cheated over the board? It felt like, to me that he was trying to pinpoint how we caught him and that Part of the phone call never left me. Oh, shit. We can never trust this kid again.

[Patrick Hines]

Han started asking Danny a million questions about how they caught him.

[Julian Benzavale]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

As if he didn't want it to happen the next time he cheated. Like he wanted to learn from his mistakes. So he can go undetected.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And Danny won't spill the beans. But he says he was like, oh, wow, we can never trust this kid again. And I'm like, and yet you're parading him around at these over the board tournaments.

[Julian Benzavale]

Right. Right.

[Patrick Hines]

And defending him, like, what?

[Julian Benzavale]

Now, this is where these are starting to connect the dots. And if Hans has been cheating this long on the online games, he's probably cheating over the board too. And that would have been how he would have been able to beat Magnus.

[Patrick Hines]

So now it's day four of the big, stuffy tournament, and Magnus and his father have talked to [e-mail] Danny Chess.com very secretly said, you're absolutely right, Hunt. I don't know if he's cheating right now, but I know he's been cheating the entire time I've known him. And I've been, like, covering his ass. Right. So Magnus doesn't say anything.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

He removes himself from the tournament, which is saying everything. But he doesn't say, I know that Hans is.

[Julian Benzavale]

No. Any tweets about it. He's just like, I'm leaving the tournament. I hope to come back. And everybody knows, like, what the implication is.

[Patrick Hines]

And he uses his eye to look up what this is, but he uses this very famous clip from some soccer coach from 2014, saying, like, I prefer not to speak. If I speak, I'll be in big trouble. And that's the video he used. So, like, using that phrase, I guess, when this all happened in 2014. I can't tell you the details of it, but I was like, why is he using that video?

[Julian Benzavale]

I didn't know what that was either. I was like, what is this?

[Patrick Hines]

So I looked it up, but it's just like, it's a very big thing in the soccer world from 2014. So him using that was also like saying something without saying it.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So Magnus has made himself very clear that him removing himself from the tournament is all about Hans. And. And it's a very public accusation.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah. And it becomes, like, pandemonium in the chess world, they say pandemonium. Everybody already thought this. Everybody already thought that the only way that Hans could have beat Magnus was through cheating.

[Patrick Hines]

And now King Magnus has confirmed it.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yes. And they're like, but how could he possibly have done it? And they're like, did he have an earpiece? Is there some kind of signal device?

[Danny from Chess.com]

Everybody was going back and reviewing footage as to what could have happened.

[Julian Benzavale]

Did his jack it look a little bulky in this area.

[Danny from Chess.com]

How come he's, you know, his ankle is itchy all the time. And in this discussion, in one stream on Twitch, somebody in chat said maybe it was anal beads.

[Patrick Hines]

Someone introduces the idea of cheating through vibrating anal beads. And that is all anybody needed for all the late night shows to pick it up. Now everyone not in the chess world gives a about pandemonium in the chess world because someone mentioned anal beads. Talk about cleaning.

[Julian Benzavale]

It's talk about cleaning. Absolutely. That's our area. You don't get to have it. Chess world, Hans, please. But like, it's watching all of these like, like British commentators trying to be serious, discussing it. Somebody says, a vibrating sex toy in his rear quarters. I was like, girl, right?

[Patrick Hines]

And now it's like, it doesn't matter how true it is, it's salacious. It is now considered a legitimate theory. Some people are saying it's the truth. They know shit.

[Julian Benzavale]

I. He cheated. Like, I will. I will go to my death thinking that this son of a bitch cheated. He's offered $1 million to play chess naked to prove that he didn't do it. He doesn't take it.

[Patrick Hines]

He doesn't take it.

[Julian Benzavale]

No.

[Patrick Hines]

But he. He's saying, you know, this is humiliating.

[Julian Benzavale]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Benzavale]

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[Julian Benzavale]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julian Benzavale]

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[Patrick Hines]

See [e-mail] promos ends July 22nd at 11:59pm Eastern Time. Now remember, though, like, Hans has been cheating online endlessly. That's all he knows how to do, is cheat. But that's not public information because Danny from Chess.com has been protecting him. And Hans hasn't publicly acknowledged that. He just like, in the middle of this, like, is he cheating? Scandal, he just changes his account. And it was totally his idea. It's like, very obvious that this is happening, but nothing has been said by Chess.com yet, even though they made it official to Magnus.

[Julian Benzavale]

But Hans, just for the record, is real mad about the incident anal beads thing. Because in his. His sto, his telling of his life story, he's worked and scraped his way up.

[Hans Niemann]

And it was very sad to see my life's work just like, you know, burn in front of my eyes. Yesterday I probably had to explain that I didn't use anybody's about five different times to five different people. That's what my life and all my accomplishments and all my work has been boiled down to fucking anal beads.

[Julian Benzavale]

And now all of his life's work has been reduced to anal beads.

[Patrick Hines]

And I'm sure he's been super nice to every kid he's ever met.

[Julian Benzavale]

Oh, please. Ye.

[Patrick Hines]

But he's being the one bully. Are you kidding me? This guy is a bully through and through.

[Julian Benzavale]

He also stays at the tournament after Magnus leaves. The next day, he gets like an extra wanding. Like, they're really, like, by the butt.

[Patrick Hines]

So after all of the speculation is all everybody's talking about, he kind of has to address it now. It's on Colbert. Like, we got to talk about it.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So during some interview, he says, okay, like, cue the tears. Like squeezing a couple of tears out. When I was 16 years old, I randomly cheated on Chess.com I was confronted. I confessed. It was the biggest mistake of my life. I am ashamed. Now today in the documentary Sitting down, he has a different story. He says when he was 12 years old, he cheated a total of nine times on Chess.com Q. Ferris Bueller, nine times. But then he, like, stopped cheating. And then when he was 16 years old, he cheated about 20 to 30 times, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[Julian Benzavale]

But never again. Never since the age of 16.

[Patrick Hines]

Now Danny from Chess.com says that Hans admitted to just enough to get sympathy and that anything they said would make us look like the bad guys. And I'm like, right Danny, do you know why? Because you'd have to admit that you knew. Knew how much he was actually cheating. This might be the only time Hans actually played a little bit of chess.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah, 100%. But also, like, what's a cheater?

[Patrick Hines]

Always a cheater.

[Julian Benzavale]

But truly, if I were a fan following this guy, like, I cared about his career, I'm subscribed to his twitch or whatever, I would unsubscribe from everything. I'm like, you can't believe a word this guy says. He absolutely cheated in that over the board game with Magnus.

[Patrick Hines]

He cheated. And every other time. But not, give me a break, like

[Julian Benzavale]

a 1 in 10,000 chance that Magnus was going to use the perfect opening and then he was going to know the perfect response. There's. There's. We never really come back to this. But, like, he cheated. Yeah, he cheated in that game. I don't know how.

[Patrick Hines]

I don't really care how. I just don't like him. And I don't trust you because I

[Julian Benzavale]

would like to know, like, you know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

Because, like, this is not going to keep me up at night.

[Julian Benzavale]

No, but like, for the sake of the, of the documentary, like, I'd like. He'll never admit to it. We'll never know how. But the thing is, after this, I

[Hans Niemann]

went to gochester.com to log into my account password was working. Because of this game against Magnus, because of what he said, they have decided to completely remove me from the website.

[Danny from Chess.com]

Did they give a reasoning?

[Hans Niemann]

No reason. That was a permanent ban from Chess.com and they also removed my invitation from the Global Chess Championship with a first prize of $200,000.

[Julian Benzavale]

All of these things are happening at once. He gets. He gets banned from chess.com he gets

[Patrick Hines]

sort of accused by Magnus of cheating.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

So Hans is like, this is all conspiracy. They're all out to get me. Here's what's also happening during the accusation from Magnus and the cheating scandal. Whatever. Chess.com is about to strike a major business deal with Magnus Carlson, who's the best chess player in the 13 years running, but he is now playing on Chess.com right. They're like, that's crazy. He has his own company called the Play Magnus Group, which consists of 13 chess companies, and it's Chess.com's main competitor. Obviously they want Magnus on Chess.com yeah. And they have for a very long time.

[Julian Benzavale]

They say this thing that it would be like having the NBA, but LeBron James is competing in a separate basketball league. I was like, this documentary is not for me. I mean, what are you talking about?

[Patrick Hines]

But they pay. Chess.com pays the Magnus Group $80 million

[Julian Benzavale]

and worth every penny, I would think. I mean, if they're valued at a billion dollars now. You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

And like now they're buying everything. It just, it makes sense. But Hans is saying, like, of course it's fucking coordinated.

[Hans Niemann]

They have to pander to their business partner, Magnus. You know, they can't, they can't upset him too much or the race is going to throw another tantrum. And when a baby starts crying, you know, you have to give them something to shut them up.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, in order to keep King Magnus happy, Chess.com outed Hans and banned him and Ost. And this is all part of the plan. And like, this was all their big heist.

[Julian Benzavale]

But you know what? It's not a bad argument because it all did happen at the same time.

[Patrick Hines]

True, like. And sure. Like, they probably listen to Magnus because they care more about Magnus and this business deal than they do about this punk.

[Julian Benzavale]

100%. And I think at the end of the day, I think if you're Magnus, and I don't believe that Magnus did this, but I could make it. I could see, like, okay, if you want this deal, if you want me to sell my company, you want me on your platform, you got to get rid of this idiot.

[Patrick Hines]

You want to know why? Because, and I've never done one of them, but I can imagine that 80 million doll deals don't start and end overnight. Of course, this was years in the making probably in some sense. So the fact that Hans is like, they're all out to get me and it started yesterday and now we're here like, Hans, you're not that important.

[Julian Benzavale]

Right?

[Patrick Hines]

You're not. Nobody gives a shit. This deal is literally. It's a bigger deal than you are as a chess player.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yes, 100%.

[Patrick Hines]

No one cares.

[Julian Benzavale]

But now that Magnus and his family have access to Chess.com because they're part of the company, Magnus and his dad, who by the way is also his manager, they go to the Chess.com people and they're like, because Chess.com has the best anti cheating technology in the world, according to Chess.com they say. And so they're like, we want to know if you can take that anti cheating technology and apply it to the over the board games and let's see if we can prove whether or not Hans cheated in the game that he won against Magnus.

[Patrick Hines]

And Chess.com is like, oh my God, say no more. Absolutely 100%.

[Danny from Chess.com]

We did a very thorough job investigating all of Hans's games online. And it was one of the most eye opening things because like he had cheated way more than even we thought. The only online cheating was rampant. He had cheated in well over 100 online games. And I thought the truth was that Hans Neiman cheated over the board at the 2022 Sinquel Cup.

[Patrick Hines]

In this full investigation they found out that he was cheating. They use the word rampant. Well over 100 games from day one he was. He cheated in every game he played.

[Julian Benzavale]

And it's like to hear Hans look at us two camera and say I cheated like four times when I was nine and 16 times when I was 16 or whatever. Like absolutely not. Total fucking bullshit.

[Patrick Hines]

It's also a bad lie.

[Julian Benzavale]

Y.

[Patrick Hines]

How do you know? It's too specific.

[Julian Benzavale]

But when you're cheating like a math game on a website, you know there's some nerd in the back who's going to be able to figure it out.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. And like you should thank your lucky stars that Danny protected you for as long as he did.

[Julian Benzavale]

Right. Because it's also fraud. Like if you're making 30 grand a month on chess.com and like it's all fraudulent. Like they should be suing you.

[Patrick Hines]

But you know what he might be doing? He might be streaming through Twitch. It's probably not through chess.com he's probably playing and then like screen and making money there. That's probably how it is.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Still, still fraud. Like I get it.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

But it's a 72 page investig and apparently there was no evidence of Hans cheating over the board.

[Julian Benzavale]

Can I ask a question?

[Patrick Hines]

Sure.

[Julian Benzavale]

Why do we not get any information of what was in this report?

[Patrick Hines]

I don't know. Because it makes no sense when you take, when you take one half a step back and you're like am I crazy? So he cheated his way online? Yes, he cheated his way to the tournament. He doesn't actually understand the game and

[Julian Benzavale]

then does a 1 in 10,000 like, like reverse move. The guy who plays the. He cheated.

[Patrick Hines]

And you won't talk about it.

[Julian Benzavale]

Right. So like, but also I want to know like how. Okay, so you, you are telling Hans and his dad that your anti cheating technology can determine whether or not this guy cheated. Not on your platform but somehow over the board in a tournament that you are not associated with in any way. So when your report says that he didn't. I would like to see what's in the report.

[Patrick Hines]

I would too. And Chess.com oversold this big time because they didn't want the deal to go away with Magnus.

[Julian Benzavale]

But then everyone, Magnus and his D included just take the Chess.com guys at their word. Which I guess they have to now because they're like they've sold their company to them like they're part of the family.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Magnus Carlsen]

But everyone's like they didn't have the smoking gun. I felt pretty bad. I felt that I'd sort of been gaslit a bit by Danny and Chess.com into thinking that they had evidence, which they really didn't.

[Julian Benzavale]

Even Magnus is like feel really bad for accusing that guy of cheating. He fucking cheated.

[Patrick Hines]

He cheated. And like I just kind of can't believe that the Chess I Com guys weren't held accountable in any way for protecting this known cheater. Like am I overreacting?

[Julian Benzavale]

No, you're definitely not. We're just stuck on different things. I agree with you completely. But I'm just like how on earth could your anti cheating technology have proven that he didn't cheat in an over the board game that you guys weren't even at?

[Patrick Hines]

I think because there's no way to take the online anti cheating and put it into real life.

[Julian Benzavale]

It's got to be no way.

[Patrick Hines]

It's got to be a totally different thing. And I think they oversold it to Magnus.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And over promised and underdelivered.

[Julian Benzavale]

Right. Because I'm like how would your anti cheating technology detect an anal beat? I'm not saying that's how I think he did it but like what if he did? Right?

[Patrick Hines]

Like walk me through how you're.

[Julian Benzavale]

Show me the report. Tell me any.

[Patrick Hines]

Show your work.

[Julian Benzavale]

Show your work. Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

That's what I want to say because

[Julian Benzavale]

I just, it really frustrates me that like the Chess.com guys, Magnus and his dad from this point forward, Hans definitely did not cheat in that game. Our bad. And I'm like, really?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. You don't have to be Colombo like I always say to figure out he cheated in every everything else but this.

[Julian Benzavale]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

He can't even explain the game.

[Julian Benzavale]

And like I don't know when we get back to it but I'm just going to say this. As soon as he wins that game against Magnus, Magnus then leaves the tournament. Then like he's accused of cheating publicly. Since this whole thing controversy the last few days, it's been impossible for him.

[Hans Niemann]

It's a wonder he held on. He held on for, for so long

[Patrick Hines]

before it started coming.

[Hans Niemann]

Coming unglued. There was a point where I was looking in the mirror. And I'm like, what am I going to do?

[Julian Benzavale]

He loses every other game in the tournament because he magically knows now there's a billion eyes on him, and he can't do anything sketchy. And he doesn't just lose, he loses badly. Like, he gets his. And he'll be like, well, I couldn't focus and I was dealing with anal beads and whatever. I'm like, no, bitch, you knew that you couldn't cheat anymore.

[Patrick Hines]

That's 100% right.

[Julian Benzavale]

You know, so we're.

[Patrick Hines]

We're told by Magnus that Han sued everyone in their dog for $100 million.

[Julian Benzavale]

It's a good lawsuit.

[Patrick Hines]

And cuts a Hans. This is. This is so trumpy. Because he's like, everyone hates Magnus. His own friends. All of his friends are telling me all the time that, like, they hate being around him. And I'm like, where are your friends, girl?

[Julian Benzavale]

We can't. We haven't met one single person in this entire documentary who says one good thing about you.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, all you know to do is how to be a victim. That's it. That's all you know how to do.

[Julian Benzavale]

I got to tell you, like, we learn eventually that this lawsuit settles out of court. And part of the. I was desperately trying to find out how much. There's no information. But he also was reinstated on Chess.com as part of the settlement.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, Magnus says he don't want to settle.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

But he says the youth. But also the US Legal system sucks and it's really expensive. Yes. And I think Magnus was like, you know what? I don't know. But, like, the vibe I'm getting from him is like, I don't really have time for this. I'm just going to keep being the best chess player in the world. Because that's proven.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And, like, this punk will fade away.

[Julian Benzavale]

He's also like, I just made a cool $82 million. I'm not going to spend it fighting this.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, all Hans wants is the fight. That's all he wants. If we just stop talking about him, maybe he'll go away. So two years later, we're in Paris. It's Magnus versus Hans, the rematch, some over the board game. He cheated his way into this tournament.

[Julian Benzavale]

I guess I just can't figure out how this guy is taken seriously enough still in the chess world that he's invited to these competitions.

[Danny from Chess.com]

Magnus Carlson, world number one, just took down Hans Niemann. Magnus Carlson dominated this match.

[Magnus Carlsen]

He wanted to settle things not in the courtroom, but on the chessboard. So

[Patrick Hines]

Magnus Says Hans wanted to settle things, and not in a courtroom, but on the chessboard. So, yeah, and then we did again.

[Julian Benzavale]

And he's kind of even now, even after all of this, he's, like, still a gracious winner. But, like, watching. I was riveted to watch this chess match. They only give us, like, three minutes of it in the documentary, but I was like, what is going to happen again? Like, they cut to the crowd. It's all young, cool looking kids. They're all drinking. I'm like. And I'm like, if I were wherever, if I were in Paris that weekend, I would have gone to this chest.

[Patrick Hines]

It's like dark lighting.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah, I know. Like, it looked, like, very cool. Chess is cool.

[Patrick Hines]

But now, like, it ends with Hans rambling like a lunatic about seeing the future, and he's a stone cold killer. And I'm like, you're so angry and so insecure. And I kind of get shit for saying this, but I kind of wonder if we won't be covering another documentary about Hans in the future.

[Julian Benzavale]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

And that's all I'm going to say.

[Julian Benzavale]

I was saying, like, it was great to watch him lose.

[Patrick Hines]

He's sitting there pouting.

[Julian Benzavale]

I know. It was so great to watch him sort of get some sort of comeuppance in this.

[Patrick Hines]

No sportsmanship at all. No. Like, all right, congrats. Like, the better player. 1. He's just sulking and pouting, but also, like, where it's the same thing. It's like, Trump then sue everybody if they're lying. Like, why aren't you saying, I know.

[Julian Benzavale]

And it also ends with Hans saying, nobody knows this, but I'm going to be the best player in the world because I know things the world doesn't. And I can see the future. What are you saying, Hans?

[Patrick Hines]

Okay.

[Julian Benzavale]

What are you saying, girl?

[Patrick Hines]

I don't know. I would not be shocked if we cover another documentary about him. It's all I'm going to say.

[Julian Benzavale]

Oh, my God, girl, We did untold Chessmates.

[Patrick Hines]

Chess mates.

[Julian Benzavale]

Oh, my God. This one was correct. I'm gonna go and play chess with my kid tonight.

[Patrick Hines]

Okay, great.

[Julian Benzavale]

Don't forget to follow us on YouTube, fam. Over 425,000 subscribers.

[Patrick Hines]

Unbelievable.

[Julian Benzavale]

Unreal. Join the Patreon. So much great stuff over there.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, we have fun over there.

[Julian Benzavale]

What are we doing next?

[Patrick Hines]

We are doing the Grindr Killer Scandal. Ooh, it's on.

[Julian Benzavale]

Sounds gay. I'm in.

[Patrick Hines]

It is. It's on hbo, Max Discovery. Plus, we're heading to England for this one. Yeah.

[Julian Benzavale]

All right. Stay safe out there. This whole idea of, like, I'm just going to meet somebody online and then just go to their house.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, I know.

[Julian Benzavale]

Some, like, stranger. It's crazy.

[Patrick Hines]

People are just showing up at homes. They're not meeting in public place.

[Julian Benzavale]

Taking lives into our own hands.

[Patrick Hines]

Is that right?

[Julian Benzavale]

I guess.

[Patrick Hines]

In a public place, at least I know. Drop your pin. Share your location.

[Julian Benzavale]

We love you. Stay safe.

[Patrick Hines]

Stay safe, please.

[Julian Benzavale]

So stay tuned for the trailer for that fam. And, you know, that's it.

[Patrick Hines]

Go. We'll see you soon.

[Hans Niemann]

All right.

[Julian Benzavale]

Bye.

[Patrick Hines]

Bye. Love you. Bye. This is one of the most shocking cases of serial murder in modern times.

[Hans Niemann]

He killed four men.

[Julian Benzavale]

For years, Stephen Port had been taking advantage of the anonymous world of gay hookup sites like Grindr and Fit Lads. Stephen messaged me, hey, neighbor, come over and meet my new guy.

[Hans Niemann]

And drugged seven more, raping four.

[Patrick Hines]

The police missed every, every single opportunity to catch him.

[Hans Niemann]

Shocking, in fact, almost unbelievable that the case was handled so poorly by the Med.

[Patrick Hines]

They just thought that Jack was gay and a druggie, and that was it.

[Hans Niemann]

As eight officers face investigation, what were the guilty signals?

[Patrick Hines]

That sick, twisted scumbag will never be able to hurt or destroy anyone else's fight, family or life. It.