506: Joe Hunter's Mission (from "48 Hours")

Summary

Podcast Summary: True Crime Obsessed – Episode 506: Joe Hunter's Mission (from "48 Hours")

Date: June 11, 2026
Hosts: Patrick Hinds and Julian Bezvali
Main Theme:
A detailed, emotional, and at times darkly humorous recap of a "48 Hours" episode focusing on Joe Hunter’s mission to seek justice for his sister Joanna Hunter, whose death was quickly ruled a suicide by authorities despite deep familial and expert suspicion of homicide by her abusive husband, Pastor Mark Lewis. The episode explores failures in the justice system, the dynamics of domestic abuse, institutional accountability, and the evolution of laws to better protect abuse victims.

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Episode Overview

The hosts break down an episode of "48 Hours" centered on Joe Hunter (two-time "Survivor" contestant) and his pursuit for answers and justice following the suspicious death of his sister, Joanna Hunter, in 2011. Despite a history of documented abuse by Joanna's husband, Mark Lewis—a pastor and cult leader—the local sheriff's department ruled her death a suicide within 28 minutes. The podcast explores the case, the family's ongoing fight, systemic failures, newly passed legislation (Joanna’s Law), and the lasting impact on survivors and advocates.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Scene: Joanna Hunter’s Death (00:54–07:38)

• In 2011, Joanna Hunter is found dead inside her home. Her husband, Pastor Mark Lewis, instructs a parishioner to make the 911 call.
• Notable Host Commentary:
  • “[Mark] outsourced the 911 call.” (03:28, Patrick)
  • Immediate family suspicion: “I knew, I knew he did it.” (07:03, Patricia and Joe Hunter)
• Authorities ruled her death a suicide on-scene, based on Mark’s statements and superficial evidence—a note reading "Take care of the dogs" and an open suitcase.
• The family was not notified directly; a deacon broke the news to Joanna’s mother the next day.

2. Mark Lewis’s Pattern of Abuse & Control (09:26–14:01)

• Mark Lewis had a documented, violent history with Joanna, including multiple restraining orders and a prior domestic violence conviction.
• Quote from Joanna’s Mother, Patricia:
  • “At 20, Joanna documented Mark choking her and got a restraining order. Even so, Joanna returned to him... again.” (09:32, Patricia)
• The hosts reflect on cycles of abuse, victim psychology, and their own families’ experiences, emphasizing how leaving is complicated and dangerous for victims.
• Discussion about Mark's control through religious authority and cult-like dynamics in his church.
• “He was abusing her partly because she was black. Is absolutely vile, disgusting. And he’s the guy screaming at you how to get into heaven. I mean, fuck him.” (24:25, Patrick)

3. Law Enforcement and Systemic Failures (14:01–17:15, 40:34–54:10)

• Police conducted a minimal investigation: No homicide detectives called to the scene, no forensics collected, no phones or fingerprints taken.
• "No homicide investigators were called to the house. The bedroom was not treated as a crime scene.” (14:05)
• History of abuse was not available to deputies, reportedly because records were over 15 years old—a key systemic gap.
• “It’s so annoying that that’s not a federal thing... every time there’s a death in a house, it is considered a suspicious death. How on earth is that not a federal law?” (14:48, Julian)
• Mark Lewis moves on to another abusive relationship, which escalates even after his conviction for arson (firebombing Sarah Nottingham's home) and only serves five years of an eight-year sentence.

4. Cult Dynamics and Secondary Victims (25:15–27:33)

• Testimonies from former church members, including Jacob (a deacon), describe Mark’s total control—parishioners had to ask Mark before visiting their own families.
• Daryl Snedeker, a church member and sheriff’s deputy at the time, is mentioned as uninvolved but raises questions about cop-cult overlap.
• Commentary on pervasive isolation and why such environments thrive.

5. Reopening the Case, New Forensic Analysis, and Continued Roadblocks (41:22–48:49)

• Post-conviction, the family leveraged the new conviction and media attention to pressure the sheriff’s office to reopen Joanna’s case.
• New DNA testing found another male’s DNA on the robe sash—not identified and not Mark’s, but no meaningful follow-up.
• Forensic expert Dr. Bill Smock, later hired by the sheriff’s department, concluded Joanna was murdered and the scene staged, based on injury analysis and rope impressions.
• Hosts debate the persuasiveness of the reenactment and forensic evidence, acknowledging limitations given evidence handling at the time of death.

6. Institutional Resistance and Legislative Change (49:11–59:34)

• Captain Harris, representing law enforcement, remains dismissive and defensive, alternating between stating nothing was missed and admitting the investigation would’ve been “very different” with background knowledge.
• “Other than creating a hypothetical situation that Mark murdered her, there is no evidence to support that.” (52:20, Captain Harris)
• Casey Gwinn and Gail Strack (Alliance for HOPE International) created a 10-factor checklist for law enforcement to better recognize “hidden homicides” in domestic abuse contexts. Joanna’s case matched all 10.
• Joanna’s Law (Senate Bill 989) is passed in California, mandating domestic violence history checks and crime scene preservation in suspicious deaths—the result of the family’s advocacy.

7. The Ongoing Fight and Call for Systemic Reform (61:11–62:51)

• Hosts express continued frustration that laws only change reactively and locally, not proactively or federally.
• “It’s always after the fact. But, like, the system has to start responding to the facts.” (63:05, Patrick)
• Joe Hunter and his wife Katie use their public platforms to educate children (sons and daughters) about healthy relationships and warning signs of abuse.
• National resources reiterated for those affected by domestic violence: 1-800-799-SAFE and thehotline.org.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the System’s Failure:

  • "No homicide investigators were called to the house. The bedroom was not treated as a crime scene. No fingerprints taken, no DNA tested and no phones collected." (14:05, “C”)
  • "Other than creating a hypothetical situation that Mark murdered her, there is no evidence to support that." (52:20, Captain Harris)

• On Domestic Violence Risk:

  • "If you strangle a woman one time in an intimate relationship, she's 750% more likely to be killed by you." (49:30, Casey Gwinn)

• On Personal Impact and Advocacy:

  • "We learned that there was a history of abuse ... restraining order after restraining order. She's in the hospital, he's in prison, and she keeps going back. And ... my heart breaks for her." (10:34, Julian)
  • "Talk to your sons. Like, it's a very dangerous time for people to just ... be out in the world." (61:58, Patrick)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• 01:00 Introduction to the case, background on Joanna, and police ruling.
• 06:08 The family’s first suspicions—no notification from Mark or police.
• 09:26 History of abuse and restraining orders.
• 12:10 Hosts share personal and family stories of difficult relationships.
• 14:01 Critique of the original police investigation.
• 16:51 Discussion of Joanna’s prior attempts to leave and the cult dynamic.
• 25:15 Interviews with former cult members and cult dynamics explored.
• 34:42 Mark’s abusive behavior toward other women, additional crimes.
• 41:22 DNA testing and evidence gaps.
• 43:27 Introduction of Dr. Smock and new forensic findings.
• 54:04 The 10-factor homicide checklist and Joanna's Law.
• 59:34 Reflections on law, systemic fragmentation, urgent need for reform.
• 61:23 Joe Hunter and wife Katie on advocacy and survivor education.
• 62:51 Resources for domestic violence support and case status update.

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Conclusion & Takeaways

• Patrick and Julian forcefully underscore how the justice system, as constructed, repeatedly fails victims of domestic violence—fast-tracking cases to “suicide” and ignoring the well-known links between prior abuse and homicide.
• The episode celebrates the passage of Joanna’s Law but laments the lack of federal action and the reactive nature of current reforms.
• The hosts urge listeners to talk to their children—especially sons—about violence and respect, and to keep pushing for systemic change.
• They close by offering resources and affirming solidarity with survivors and advocates.

---

Resources

• Domestic Violence Hotline: [phone]-SAFE
• thehotline.org
• Alliance for HOPE International: allianceforhope.com

Summary prepared by True Crime Obsessed Podcast Summarizer

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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[B]

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[A]

Hi. Julian Bezavali.

[C]

Hello.

[B]

Patrick Hines.

[A]

How are you?

[B]

I'm doing okay. Every time we record these bonus episodes, which are months in advance, there's, like, weather.

[A]

I know.

[B]

Last time it was, like, really nice weather. And now it's like tornado watches and torrential downpours.

[A]

But it's also humid. It's like 60 degrees and rainy, which is honestly, like, the worst. I'll take the 60 degrees even if I have to have the rain. But, like, the humid rain, like, the hair is a mess. We're also starting, like, an hour and a half after we normally do. It feels like tomorrow.

[B]

I know.

[C]

I'm a little splashy.

[B]

It's also not Tuesday. It's like a mess.

[A]

I know. That's true.

[B]

Everything's a mess.

[A]

All right, what are we talking about today?

[B]

All right, welcome to the bonus episodes, everybody. This is our fifth bonus episode of the year. This is an episode of 48 Hours, Season 38, Episode 14, Joe Hunter's Mission.

[A]

She fell in love with a man that seemed charming and charismatic, and he was a pastor. And immediately, I was in the spirit. I know in my heart that Mark killed my sister. And then he staged it to look like she hung herself.

[C]

So Mark Lewis was never charged with any crime related to Joanna's death. What do you make of that? Appalling total disregard for our daughter. It appeared to us that it was just a dismissal.

[A]

The Solano County Sheriff's Department made a decision that Joanna died by suicide within 28 minutes of arriving at the scene. That is a gigantic misconception. The case was still being worked.

[C]

So do you stand by your office's original conclusion that Joanna Hunter took her life?

[A]

Yes, we do. So we get to talk about Survivor for a second. Yeah.

[B]

He was on, like, two seasons of Survivor.

[A]

Yeah, he was on one. And he's coming back for Survivor 50, which is happening, I think, right now as we are recording this episode.

[B]

Yeah. So Natalie Morales is our host, and she says right away that Survivor also airs on cbs.

[A]

Full disclosure. Thanks, Natalie.

[B]

I'm like, we got you. And I love Natalie in this.

[A]

Oh, my God, oh my God. Natalie does her best field work. I'm very impressed.

[B]

But before we even dive in, we learned that like when Joe was on Survivor, he spoke a lot about his sister Joanna, and he spoke like about her, but he also spoke to her like he was working through a lot of stuff about this tragedy that happened to her.

[A]

Yeah, Survivor gets like that. I think when you're like alone on that island in the woods looking for idols, like bugs eating bugs, like, like starving to death. I think your spirituality really starts to come.

[B]

And good for him, like taking a platform and running with it because what happened to her and the way that police did not give a shit. Like this family needed a major microph and he took it and screamed into it.

[A]

And good for him. It's October 26, 2011. It's 9:25pm we're in Vacaville, California. My pastor just came out of his house. He's really, really upset and he told me to call a cop. He thinks his wife's deaf.

[B]

What's his name?

[A]

His name is Mark Lewis. Can I talk to Mark?

[B]

Can you tell me what happened?

[A]

I have no clue what happened. I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to talk about what he looks like. We learned that this guy named Mark Lewis, who's a pastor, has one of his parishioners call 911.

[B]

And I'm like, so he outsourced the 911 call?

[A]

He outsourced the 911 call.

[B]

Maybe I've been doing this way too long.

[A]

No, you know what? It's giving. It's giving like sending somebody else into the room to find the body.

[B]

Right. I was like, maybe I've been doing this too long. Or he doesn't want his voice on record doing a shady, unconvincing 911 call.

[A]

Yeah, well, the friend.

[B]

Oh no, my wife.

[A]

It doesn't really work because the friend immediately hands the phone to him. We find out that his 36 year old wife Joanna was found hanging in

[B]

the bedroom closet using the, they call it like the sash from her bathrobe as the noose. They said, yeah.

[A]

14 minutes later, 9:39pm deputies are on the scene.

[B]

So the report says there weren't any signs of a struggle. There was an open suitcase and a note that said, take care of the dogs.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And Mark Lewis, this fucking pastor is handcuffed and briefly questioned. And then we don't really talk to him again if I'm the cops.

[A]

So 100% this was deemed a suicide. Because he said so at the scene. If you're on the Patreon, we saw this with the Ellen Greenberg case. The husband said it was a suicide. They did not send investigators out like the literal. Like patrol cops who responded to this call deemed it a suicide. And that's what it became going forward.

[B]

And God damn it, are they going to defend it to this day?

[A]

Because what happens when that happens is they don't deem the crime scene a crime scene.

[B]

Right. Of course. They like everything.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

So while the details are that Mark says he last saw Joanna at 1 o' clock in the afternoon, the person who called 911 and the church member

[C]

who called 911 said he and Mark had been outside the house playing basketball and talking about their faith starting at 3pm until Mark went inside and found Joanna dead.

[A]

No one is playing basketball first. Michael Jordan doesn't play basketball for six hours.

[B]

No, not without a pee break, not without a water refill, nothing. So they were outside for six hours, and then Mark, the pastor, went inside and found Joanna dead. Is that story bullshit?

[A]

What that says is that his wife Joanna was having a suicidal crisis inside the house for shooting hoops.

[B]

And he's shooting hoops and talking about his faith. And I talk about your faith. I'm not like, I'm not saying it with that cunty tone in general.

[A]

Is that the first time we've ever said that word on our podcast?

[B]

No, I'm saying it.

[A]

I'm saying keep it. I'm saying use it all the time.

[B]

I'm saying it with that cunty tone because fudge this guy. And it's a stupid. And he's going to hide behind his, quote, faith, which I don't think he has.

[A]

I'm sorry, this is not the appropriate moment, but merch, if I've ever seen it. I mean, you know what I mean? Sometimes you need to use it that country. So I want that on a T shirt tomorrow.

[B]

Like, I'm not being like their faith people with faith. That's not a faith.

[A]

I don't go to church, but I'm a person of faith.

[B]

This guy's not a person of faith. And he's going to hide behind that?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yes, 100%. So Patricia is Joanna and Joe's mother. Nobody called her that night.

[A]

Like that Tells you everything you need to know.

[B]

She has no idea what's going on. The cops don't call. I'm sure the husband was like, I'll handle it. Like, yeah, Joanna's family doesn't know what's going on. The next day, a deacon from the quote church went to see her and tells her that her daughter Joanna is dead. Which is unbelievable to me.

[A]

The piece of shit. You have to be to not call the mom. We're going to learn later. The family fudgeing hates this guy. Of course they do. But like, I think that like that right there is such an indication of like, what a fucking low life and bad person. Like it just tells you everything you need to know about this.

[B]

He knew that the family hated him

[C]

because Joe the brother first the gut punch.

[A]

I dropped to my knee.

[C]

And then almost instantly, one thought, one name. What did he do to her? Mark Lewis.

[A]

I knew, I knew he did it.

[B]

The minute he learned about this, he was like, oh, he did it. I knew he finally fucking killed my sister. And Patricia, the mother says the same thing. Like, what did he do? Like everyone. And I'm sure, I think he was just trying to delay the piece of shit. Pastor air quotes Pastor. Like delay the inevitable or like let

[A]

them know, like make it so that when they find out that she's dead, that she's been dead for 24 hours and they didn't. Just to make their suffering worse.

[B]

And there can't be an investigation. Let me make sure it's a quote suicide first. Well clear the crime scene so that there isn't a crime scene. And now when the family throws a fit, they look crazy. And then no investigation can even happen

[A]

because the, the family would have told the cops everything that we're going to learn about this guy in a minute. And that might have led them to preserve the crime scene, which was not done right. Girl. Chime is back. And as you all know by now, Chime is changing the way people bank. They offer the most rewarding fee free banking. This is fee free banking built for you.

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[A]

And we learned that there was a history of abuse that started soon after they started dating in high school.

[C]

At 20, Joanna documented Mark choking her and got a restraining order against him. Even so Joanna returned to him at 21 after she reported that Mark grabbed my neck and twisted it. Joanna got another restraining order.

[B]

Quote, he grabbed my neck and twisted it. 22 years old, Joanna is hospitalized with a sprained neck. So this guy's drug of choice.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is fucking strangling her and choking her. And the guy was convicted on a domestic violence charge and sentenced to 36 months. Again, he's a pastor.

[A]

I know. And then she returns to the relationship and her mom, Patricia tells us that he, like, while he's in prison, he begs her to come and visit her. She goes and, like. And according to the mom, like, falls right back into it, you know. And we were talking about this off mic, we learned that this guy's a pastor of a Baptist church. I wish we got more because we're gonna meet other parishioners here who, like one guy says eventually, like, this was a cult.

[B]

It is.

[A]

And I just needed more of that because I understand. And what I say by I understand is, I mean, it makes sense to me because we've covered so many cults. I understand the pull and the magnetism of a cult and how you can sort of your personality can completely change when you enter that sort of groupthink. Situation. But, like, it just, like, my God, like, Joanna has, like, restraining order after restraining order. She's in the hospital, he's in prison, and she keeps going back. And it just. My heart breaks for her. My heart breaks for the family. And I wish we had a little bit more of an understanding of how she got into the mindset to keep going back after all these times.

[B]

Cause it's def. It's. He's definitely a cult. He's a complete controlling maniac. So at 25 years old, they get married seemingly right when he gets out.

[A]

And she doesn't tell anybody. Nobody in her family knows. I mean, we see pictures of her on her wedding day. She's smiling. Even in that wedding photo that they show, she's smiling. He's, like, dragging her through the crowd.

[B]

Yeah. She's property to him 100%.

[A]

And can I just say, too the parents, hearsay.

[C]

I had to tell my husband. And we just held each other and sobbed because we knew now it would be that much harder to help her and get her out. You said you feared for your daughter, but did you ever think he would be capable of killing her?

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

It was gonna be exponentially more difficult to get her out of this relationship.

[B]

It's an incredibly painful place to be in as someone watching someone you care about go through something like this. I know.

[A]

I think about you all the time. Because you've talked about how, like, you were in a not great relationship and, like, your parents knew about it.

[B]

My parents had an intervention for me.

[A]

Did they really? Yeah.

[B]

My dad called it emotional vandalism. Is like. Was one of the phrases he used that stuck with me forever.

[A]

How long did you stay in the relationship after that?

[B]

Probably like a year.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, because, like, what. Like, what do you do as a parent? I mean, like, obviously you can't. You would never abandon your child.

[B]

And to be clear, this was not a violent situation. Just want to make that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Very, very clear. I'm not comparing it in any way,

[A]

because my problem is I'd probably kill the guy. Like, if the guy choked my daughter three times, I don't know what I would do if she kept going back to him.

[B]

I don't know my dad would do either.

[A]

I know. Oh, my God. I know. I know.

[B]

You know? But I also don't know, like, how easy. Like I always say, it's very easy for us to say that in our cushy little comfy chairs. I don't know. Like, I don't know. But I think also Too. What I was going to say was that like you don't want to lose her completely. No. And like you don't want to be like too forceful about it. Like it's sort of. I think it gets to the point where it's like as long as we have her in our lives a little bit, maybe we can help her in some way. Like maybe we can get to that point. So like when it gets to that point where you eventually might have to say like, I can't be around I. That's like a place I don't think anyone wants to be.

[A]

No. And I think that women like Joanna are the prime examples of this can happen to anybody. Like I feel like every time we cover one of these like amazing strong women, it reminds me that like this Joanna never would have thought she would have been a woman who would have been in an abusive relationship and stayed and then gone back. And if it happened to her, it could happen to anybody. You know. And I will say too, one of the tools that we get later, obviously I'll say, I know you hate it when I give things early, so I won't. But we get a statistic at the end here that and I think that like numbers and statistics do matter, especially the one that we get later. That I think when you can give that kind of information to somebody, even if they don't accept it in the moment, it is the thing that will stick in their mind.

[B]

I sure hope so.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So the cops called this a suicide right away because the husband said so.

[C]

No homicide investigators were called to the house. The bedroom was not treated as a crime scene. No fingerprints taken, no DNA tested and no phones collected after his statement, Mark Lewis was released.

[B]

It's so annoying that that's not a federal thing. Like we did it in Phil Spector. I know the timeline is weird. Bonus listeners. But we just covered it not too long ago where like the guys in LA were like, oh, it's always considered a homicide until it's not.

[A]

So like every time that there is a they we are told in that documentary that every time there's a death in a house it is considered a suspicious death. So investigators are sent and a crime scene is preserved.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like you're saying, how on earth is that not a federal law?

[B]

And I really don't wanna hear any excuses about why that's not the case. Just fix it. I know, like I don't really care what the reasoning is. Like why? Like, oh. Cause right now all I'm hearing is cuz the husband Said so.

[A]

Right. Because, like, I think that it wouldn't take that long to figure out that she either had a history of, like, mental illness or depression or had attempted suicide before or, you know, like, that, like, the husband had been abusive or that, like, it wouldn't take that much investigating to get that colonel to either, like, clear the guy or not.

[B]

Well, the other thing to that point, another thing that needs to change is that their entire history of abuse was, quote, not available to the deputy in the field because all the documents were over 15 years old. So that's another thing that has to change.

[A]

So does that mean that, like, it gets cleared from the record at some point or.

[B]

I mean, I think there's a statute of limitations about, like. I don't know why it wouldn't be cleared. I don't understand.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In this situation, they don't explain that. They just say that the history was not available to the deputy in the field.

[A]

It's to me, that feels like they didn't run the guy's name. You know what I mean? It feels like they had him in the back of the car in the handcuffs for five minutes, asked him a couple of questions.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Oh, yeah, she's crazy. Like, we knew she was going to do something like this. They did. I just wonder, if they had run his name, would the. With the orders of protection and his fucking 36 months in prison have come up?

[B]

I'm going to guess. My opinion, my guess, no. Nothing would have changed, is my guess.

[A]

Even his prison time.

[B]

That, I don't know.

[A]

It seems like an easy problem to solve.

[B]

You know what I mean? Yeah, it really does. I mean, so the autopsy says.

[C]

The next day, an external autopsy determined the ligature marks on Joanna's neck were consistent with suicide. A month later, when the toxicology report

[A]

came back clean, the case is closed.

[B]

The tox screen is clean. Case closed. So this is the beginning of what is described as a war between Joanna's family and the sheriff's department. Because this happened in 2011, it is now 2026, and we're talking about this war. So the point is, like, of course he didn't want the family to get a phone call right away because they were gonna raise fucking hell for Joanna. Yes. And he knew that.

[A]

Yes. And in the last year of her life, you know, we learned that a year before the death, she tried to get out. She called her parents, said, I'm leaving. And then within two weeks, she goes back, and once again, this is where I just wish we had more on the Church. Because the cult. The cult. I mean, they call it a Baptist church, but like. But other people call it a cult. I mean, it clearly is.

[B]

It is. It very clearly is.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, like, she had tried to leave many, many times before, and most recently it was a month before her murder. And her family was like, actually literally, truly begging her not to go back, saying, if I.

[A]

The mom says, if you're going back, I'm going to drive you there. The courage that. That. Not the courage, the fortitude that the. That mother must have had to. To do that. And she says, if you go back, I'm afraid I'll never see you again. I could. I could fall on the ground sobbing.

[B]

Yeah, because that's exactly what happened. Y. I think not to speak for Patricia, the mother, but I wonder if you drive them back so that they know you can always call them again.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To not say, like, look, I love you. I'm driving you here. You can call me anytime. I will turn this fudgeing car around. Literally, I will pull, like, I will do it. I will come back for you.

[A]

We were talking about this before we started, like, we were saying, like, as a sibling, because, you know, this is like Joe's story about his sister.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He alludes at one point to, like, the last conversation they had not going great. They were probably fighting about him, this other guy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I get it. As a sibling, if you're just like, I'm going to show you that I love you by pulling back and not supporting this. But as a parent, I can see myself doing that. Like, I'm gonna spend every last second with you that I possibly can when you're not with him, even if that means driving you back to him. And I get you for one more hour to try to talk some sense

[B]

into you and not make it like, like to. To remind Joe, the Joanna's of the world, that, like, I'm a safe space where you don't have to fight about it every time. But, like, if you want to talk to me about it, you can. That's a very, very hard place to be.

[A]

It's just so hard to argue with, joking, you know, repeatedly.

[B]

The black guy. I mean, this guy was violent from the beginning.

[A]

Girl. Oh, Positive is back. Tell us everything.

[B]

Yeah. So oh Positive is a women's health company. Yes. And today we're going to talk about the urovaginal probiotic. Okay, so it's a probiotic blend specifically formulated to support vaginal health. So we're talking, like, Balance, Healthy Vaginal pH Support Healthy Vaginal smell. Maintain healthy vaginal flora. And like so many factors like sex, tight clothing, sweat from working out, hormones, periods, whatever.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, fam, take proactive care of your health and head to oh positive.com tco or enter tco at checkout for 25% off your first purchase.

[B]

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[A]

Do it.

[B]

We're staying healthy. So let's talk about someone who's awesome, and that's Joanna.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

She was warm. She was compassionate. Life of the party. She loved, like, an incredible big sister to Joe. She loved Joe. She loves being a sister.

[A]

The mom says that she thought that Joe was her gift. And Joe says that, like, he would try to be, like, in charge sometimes, and she was absolutely not having it. Now, people would call the house to talk to him, and she would give them, like, the third degree before she would let them get on the phone with him. Like, obsessed.

[B]

Real big sister.

[A]

Because sometimes siblings don't like each other. You know what I mean? Yeah. And I love that she was, like. Loved him. He loved her. So protective of him. I'm obsessed.

[B]

They each had, it seemed like. I don't know if this is the right word, but, like, roles that they both, like, loved having really into. So Joe tells us, like, you know, it's always the way. At first, everything was fine with this guy, and then, you know, it wasn't.

[A]

Yeah. We learned that Mark Lewis is the son of a local preacher. He was Joanna's first boyfriend. And that for the first six to eight months of their relationship, like, things seemed good.

[B]

And, like, when the abuse started, Joe, the brother confronted Mark more than once, he says, physically. And what would happen is, though, is that it would backfire and the piece of shit would take it out On Joanna. So then Joe's like, like, wait, so, like, you don't want to make it any worse for your sister, but as Joe, you can't help but want to kick the shit out of this guy. So, like, what do you do?

[A]

Sometimes I just feel like I'm living in another. On another planet, where I'm like, your brother is going. Is beating up the guy that's beating you up, and then he's turning around and beating you up for getting beat up by the brother for beating you up.

[B]

Like you can't see when you're in it. I guess you just can't. Because now she feels trapped. And now she feels like, well, Joe is going to be mad at me and everyone's mad at me. And he's telling her, everyone's mad at her. And like you, it's a very lonely, isolating place.

[A]

Yeah. And Joe is like, after physically going after him, him then taking it out on her. I had to back off a little bit from my sister. I had been screaming at her for so long. Two years straight. I hate this guy. Leave this guy. Please stop. I thought, I'm going to lose her for good. So I'm just going to listen.

[B]

I'm going to push her away. Like, I'm angry. I have a right to be angry. But this anger is not helping Joanna anyway. And it's not helping Joe and Joanna either.

[A]

And because he decided to stop yelling at her and just listen, he. Then I got the deep, dark secrets that she wasn't even telling my parents, Right? Like, it was really bad in there, like, injuries.

[B]

He would see the scars, he would see the wounds. And meanwhile, while he's doing this, Mark is working his way up in the church cult, telling everyone how to get into heaven, which actually makes my stomach turn. I know shit. Is telling everyone how to live and, like, how to get into heaven. Fuck off.

[A]

And like, we learned that he was the son of a pastor, so I'm assuming it's his dad's church cult runs

[B]

in the family, I guess.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And like Patricia, the mother says, you know, oh, God.

[A]

Sit down. Pull over, pull over.

[B]

What is so crazy about this case? Which I know it happens all the time, but we haven't talked about it in this way on this show, maybe in a while or ever. Is that, like, everyone was so aware of the abuse and everyone talked about it with each other, like with Mark. And Mark would talk about it with the mom. Like, the abuser was, like, talking about the abuse with Joanna's mother, which is. Which I know is not rare, but like to hear it spoken about this way kind of is publicly.

[A]

It was just on the table. And she goes to him after the wedding and says like after she finds out that they got married behind the family's back.

[C]

And I said to him, how do I know in this moment that you will never lay a hand on her again? And I'll never forget. He kind of sneered half smile. And he looked at me and he said, when she's a better woman and a better Christian, you won't have to worry about that.

[A]

When she's a better woman and a better Christian, you won't have to worry about that.

[B]

Like, the people who not only do this, but do this and then hide behind religion make me fucking crazy.

[A]

Like he's trying to beat the religion into her.

[B]

It's so cruel. It's so sick. And on top of that, he's also a fucking racist because.

[A]

Oh my God.

[B]

Because Joanna and Joe are half black. Their dad is black. And so he was telling Joanna that she needs to be saved from being black. Specifically her hair. Talking to a black woman about her hair and quote, the way you look. What the actual. So it makes sense why Joe is like, you have to hold me back from this motherfucker.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Like, obviously for that and many reasons, but when you hear that part. He was abusing her partly because she was black. Is absolutely vile, disgusting. And he's the guy screaming at you how to get into heaven. I mean, fuck him.

[A]

This last time I'm going to say it. I just wish we knew more about how he got into her psyche.

[B]

Should be beaten to death.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Slowly.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

By me, maybe.

[A]

Are we doing that thing where you're in the cage with the bear? Yeah, totally.

[B]

Only if the bears. Only if. When you're this evil, it doesn't like, upset the bear's stomach. Because I feel like when you're that evil and vile, I don't think bears care.

[A]

I think they'll eat people in any way they.

[B]

Then great.

[A]

You know what I mean?

[B]

Choosing the bear once again to do my dirty work for me.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is the kind of capital punishment I can live with.

[B]

Yeah. So this guy Jacob is. Is like a deacon at the church. So I'm like, how culpable are you, Jake?

[A]

He's here now at least to say I looked up to him. He was a mentor. Only to find out that I was a pawn.

[C]

In hindsight, Jacob says Pastor Lewis had too much control over him.

[A]

I couldn't go to my mom and Dad's house without asking Mark permission. I was brainwashed.

[B]

Jacob, a grown ass man couldn't visit his own parents without Mark's permission. I mean, you fucking losers. I'm sorry.

[A]

I know, I know.

[B]

But, like, can I go visit my parents? Parents? Like, some guy is going to scream at you, yes or no? Like, what is going on?

[A]

It's one of those things where 48 hours isn't like an HBO cult documentary, but I kind of need it to be.

[B]

I need it to be, too.

[A]

I need to know more about the cult and how he got you in and what he promised you and what he said would happen if you left. Like, I need that part of it. Because you're right. It does just make all these people look crazy. And I'm sure they aren't.

[B]

I know. And I was like, I know that because there are so many losers here. And maybe Jacob isn't one of them.

[A]

But it's like, I get it. Like, we're. Look, we're dealing with like, the brutal, brutal murder. And like, this guy is. I don't want to tell you the ending, but he's going to get away with it.

[B]

It's like, I don't know if the isolation. I know it's the isolation, and I know that's part of it. Like, you can't see your parents and you can't see people who love you or who aren't in the church. Cult. Whatever. Like, I get, like, he needs to keep tabs on who's visiting who.

[A]

48 hours is making us do too much work. We only have this knowledge because we've done 90,000 cult documentaries. I know it does Joanna a disservice because she is such an amazing person. And clearly the cult shit worked on her, which I don't blame her. I always say it would probably work on me. And so I just want that part of it because that part of it is just missing.

[B]

Well, let's talk to Darryl, because Darryl says it was totally a cult. Mark was the leader and he. He wants, like, his flowers for catching on real quick. Daryl. And he bails. But a fun fact about Daryl.

[C]

Daryl Snedeker was a deputy in the Solano County Sheriff's Department and a member of the church at the time of Joanna's death, was a deputy in the

[B]

sheriff's department at the time of Joanna's

[A]

murder, but not involved in the case.

[B]

And I'm like, right, but did you know about it? Did you use your words, Darrell? Like, did you tell people about the Abus abuse And the brainwashing, because we don't hear about that. So I'm going to guess you didn't.

[A]

It seems like you didn't. But he did apparently quickly lose faith in the church and the pastor and leave.

[B]

I care more about who was helping Joanna.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's what I care about. When you are both in the cult and. And a fucking cop.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And Joanna was murdered. Like, I really. I just care more about Joanna here.

[A]

The world is so much about not disrupting the status quo.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Was it the Andrea Yates case where, like, the little kids were, like, street preaching with that guy who was just in, like, no one's helping this, like, little kid who look. And it's surrounded by these crazy people.

[B]

And also Elizabeth Smart.

[A]

Yes. Who was on the Masked Singer, by the way? Somebody sent me. I think it was my friend Matt Koplik sent me a TikTok that was like, I've never watched the Masked Singer, but there's, like, a person on the stage in a full costume.

[B]

It feels like a fever dream.

[A]

And it's like.

[B]

It feels like, take it off.

[A]

And they take it off. I was expecting it to be like,

[B]

they're chanting, take it off. At Elizabeth Smart.

[A]

They're talking about the mask. I don't know if they're chanting, take it off, but they take it off, and it's Elizabeth Smart and odd. I screamed, oh, my God. It was absolutely. I'm guessing it was the Masked singer. I don't know for sure that it was. I'm sure everybody listening to this knows and they're screaming at their phones. But I was like, what? But she looked thrilled to be there.

[B]

Right?

[A]

And, you know, let her have some fun. Let her. I hope that she, like, sang a song and brought the goddamn house down

[B]

if she had a good time. That's all I care.

[A]

And, like, she was wearing this crazy costume, and when they pull.

[B]

I honestly, I don't know anything about it, so I know. I'm just like, it's a weird show, man.

[A]

I hope she loved it, so I

[B]

hope she did, too.

[A]

I would totally buy her album today.

[B]

Again. If she's happy, I'm happy.

[A]

Me. Girl, our place is back. This is all about having that, like, gorgeous cookware that also doesn't have any of those horrible forever chemicals.

[B]

Yeah. So they're not just really pretty and aesthetically pleasing, but they genuinely perform, which is what keeps everybody coming back.

[A]

And listen, everything from our place is designed to be multifunctional, so you're not filling your kitchen with single use. Pans and appliances that only do one thing.

[B]

Yeah. So I love the wonder oven Pro.

[A]

I know you do.

[B]

It's like become one of the most used appliances in my kitchen. It's an 8 in 1. It preheats 60% faster than a traditional oven and it cooks up to 40% faster. So meals are actually on the table much faster.

[A]

And let me talk to you about this always pan. It's probably their most iconic product and that is for a reason. It's a 10 in one. That means it's like 10 pieces in one. It's non toxic ceramic nonstick that replaces multiple pieces of cookware. And it's the one that we are reaching for constantly.

[B]

Yeah. The eggs just slide off. And it's really good for smaller kitchens because it just replaces so many different pans.

[A]

Totally. So fam. We love it. Upgrade your kitchen with our place today.

[B]

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[A]

That's f r o m o u r p dot com TCO and use code TCO For 10% off sitewide.

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

Watch out for those eggs. They will slide right off.

[A]

Don't lose them, girl. Ollie is back. You're smiling ear to ear. Tell us everything.

[B]

I just want to read these stats.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

91% of dog parents say their pup is an important member of the family. And 40% would even save their dog over a human stranger. I just wanted to read those right at the top. Okay.

[A]

You are one of those people for sure.

[B]

We care about our pups. So we're gonna feed them Ollie. Because Ollie has like fresh recipes that are developed by real chefs.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

Yeah. And from the minute you start your subscription, everything is tailored to your pup. The meals are perfectly portioned, and you get a puptainer.

[A]

Yeah, of course, of course.

[B]

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[A]

Is a little pig. Like he has never eaten anything. Like he devours his Ollie.

[B]

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[A]

Keep them healthy, shining. So, fam, get ready for both you and your pup to be obsessed.

[B]

Head to ollie.com TCO tell them all about your dog and use code TCO to get 70% off your welcome kit when you subscribe today.

[A]

Plus, they offer an obsession guarantee. If you're not completely obsessed, you'll get your money back.

[B]

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[A]

Ali, feed the obsession. Can you imagine being the person getting all the dog pictures? Come on the other side of that app.

[B]

Yeah, we should talk about that. I think I found a new career. Here are some weird things about the night of Joanna's death.

[C]

Why didn't Mark cut Joanna down or try to administer cpr? And Joe found it particularly hard to believe Lewis was actually playing basketball for six straight hours. Hours.

[A]

You never went inside to use the restroom, get a glass of water? Playing basketball for this obscene amount of time is absurd to me.

[B]

He says it's an obscene amount of time.

[A]

Six hours.

[B]

It is absurd. And I agree. It's. It's a stupid. It's a bad lie.

[A]

It's a bad lie. And, like, how did the. Like, the cops closed this case in

[B]

28 minutes and they're like, wow, six hours. You say wow.

[A]

Because if it was a suicide, which it absolutely was. Not. Not. She was inside having a suicidal crisis. And, like, somebody's going to say, nobody went to the bathroom. Nobody, like, had to go in and get a glass of water for playing basketball for six hours.

[B]

You know, I wonder how many. How much more crossover there is between the cult and the cops. Was it just Daryl? Because it's fucking weird.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Ask a single question. Nothing about this is suspicious to you?

[A]

I know, but I. It does not surprise me. Mostly because we've seen it before, so recently.

[B]

It's true. They don't have to. I mean, it's their own kind of cult, I guess.

[A]

Yeah. But honestly that, like, you can just show, like, there's a dead person, the spouse says it was suicide, and you're just like, okay, yeah. You know, like, not a single question.

[B]

So it's 2014. This happened. Joanna's murder happened in 2011. So now it's like three years later. The family is super frustrated. Nobody's listening to them. And because this fucking train is never late.

[C]

Pastor Mark Lewis had been arrested, accused of violence against another woman.

[B]

Mark is arrested for domestic violence against another woman. Of course he is.

[A]

Yeah. We go Back to the fall of 2011 when Joanna died. And remember how, like, he didn't call her family. He did call a woman named Sarah Nottingham. And she's here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And she's awesome. She was like a friend of his from the. From the church.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And Sarah is here to say that. He asked me if I heard what was happening. He was crying. He was her pastor. And like, that night forward, he starts leaning on her for support. And of course, like, it develops into a relationship.

[B]

The grooming stuff started hours after he killed his wife.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's what is happening, if we're going to call it what it is. He started grooming Sarah the minute he murdered his wife.

[A]

Yeah. And she says, like, once again, we hear this all the time. At first, the relationship was great. She's like, with the head pastor of the call, like, how good for her. But then another side emerges. She calls it extreme manipulation, gaslighting, verbal abuse. She says in the beginning there was some physical abuse, like a shove or a push. And then it gets to be like, more and more like, this is a guy, like you were saying earlier, earlier, whose method of controlling his women is through strangling.

[B]

Right. So. And he's racist and he's a fucking pedophile.

[C]

And then she says she discovered that Mark Lewis had been sending inappropriate text messages to an underage girl.

[B]

You know, I'm just like, I've had enough. I would just keep telling him, you know, this is. It's over. We're done.

[C]

Mark grabbed her, she says, and tightly wrapped his arms around her.

[B]

She catches this piece of shit, basically sexting an underage girl or like, you know, abusing an underage girl via text. Yeah, he's a pastor. He's a pastor. He's screaming at you. You can't see your parents, and he's telling you what to do to fucking get into heaven. And he's going to try to beat the blackness out of Joanna. He is such a piece of shit, this guy. Joe. Like, I'm. I'm so on Joe. I would have been.

[A]

I know.

[B]

I would have been like, joe, do you need, like, I would have been like, Rocky's coach.

[A]

I know.

[B]

What do you need to be out of this guy as we to death?

[A]

That guy is running around the woods on Fiji looking for idols. He's running around.

[B]

He's prepping home yet?

[A]

He's prepping for tribal. The editing. No. When you go on Survivor, if you get voted off, you can't leave until everyone's like, you can't leave. Until like months and months later. So they send you. I can't remember what it's called. Yeah, I'm happy to answer all the questions.

[B]

Not even playing the game. But you can't be in a hotel.

[A]

You go to a hotel but like they take you off the island and you go, but you're sequestered.

[B]

No one can see I'm not playing the game. I'm not also sleeping on a floor fucking pop.

[A]

No, no, no, no. They get you off the island and they put you in a hotel but you like, it's like, or a house, like somewhere else on Fiji or whatever. And then like one at a time, like other people who get voted off

[B]

come to the house and then you just talk shit.

[A]

I don't know why they haven't made that a reality show. I would totally watch.

[B]

Yeah, why is that not like the after show?

[A]

Because they're making a million seasons of Survivor every year and there's enough to watch. I know, but like right now Joe is running through the woods of Fiji looking for idols. That's all I can say. I know, it's wild.

[B]

Also I love Natalie Morales in this because in her reporting she calls him a pastor as many times as hit the point home.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What a fudgeing nightmare he is.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So Sarah's out. She moves in with her parents. With her two kids by the way. Yeah, Mark, the piece of shit is threatening her on a regular basis. He's physically assaulting her. He's like smashing her windshield. And like the brazenness of it, like there are other people who can see you, Mark. Like your parents are here. Like every, that's the thing, like every. He's totally cool with everybody knowing what he's doing.

[A]

We just did this on Patreon with Don't date Brandon. Like he's like chasing these people down the highway. Remember that? Like don't take Brandon. And like making the pull over in broad daylight, violating the restraint training orders, trying to kiss them. Like these men are crazy.

[B]

Well then Natalie Morales tells us, quote, Sarah was granted an order of protection against him, but it did not stop. What happened next? Wonderful. Perfect.

[A]

January 9, 2014 at 3:00am she's living with her parents and her two kids.

[B]

And I woke up to our fire alarm going off and there was smoke filling the hallway. And I checked on my kids.

[C]

A Molotov cocktail had crashed through her parents bedroom window.

[A]

Threw a Molotov cocktail, a lit Molotov cocktail threw, smashed the window and now

[B]

the house is on fire, her parents window. So Every. Everyone is okay. They acted quickly. They put fire out themselves.

[A]

Dad throws on the bathrobe and runs into the streets to try to find this piece of shit. I love this guy.

[B]

So minutes later, the cops pull over a U haul van and arrest the driver and two passengers. And all three of them confess. It's two seconds flat. They're like, the passer hired us. Mark did it. He did it.

[A]

Like, these people were hired by this guy, the pastor. Unbelievable.

[B]

Screaming at you about how to live your life and how you're going to get in taven.

[A]

And then we see Mark being questioned by, like, local reporters on local tv says, quote, I never gave them money to do anything bad. What? That's a weird way of like, saying, what are you talking about? I had nothing to do with this.

[B]

I'm innocent. I didn't do this. Yeah, yeah, no, that's Mark. You're bad at this.

[A]

And also, he probably didn't pay them. He probably just said, like, jesus told me that you have to take this Molotov cocktail and throw it through this.

[B]

Like, were they in the cult, too?

[A]

There's no way they weren't.

[B]

So he's arrested. He's charged with arson, conspiracy, and stalking. So in January 2015, he's on trial for what he did to Sarah and her family, which is great, But Joanna's family's like, hi, right. We would like some justice, too. And so day three of the trial, he changes his plea from not guilty to no contest. So that means that he won't dispute the charges against him, but he also acknowledge his guilt. And I'm like, of course he's not going to acknowledge his guilt.

[A]

And he's sentenced to eight years in prison for all of this.

[B]

So Joanna's family seizes the moment. They're like, we have all of this proof, the conviction, the history of abuse with multiple women. We have the media pressure. They know that it's now or never. This is the time to go to the cops and. And, like, force them to open Joanna's case. This is a great idea.

[A]

Yeah. And so they do.

[B]

And my utter shock, by the way.

[A]

Well, but the problem is the police have doubled down so many times that, like, they did nothing wrong. Any relevant information about past abus. What, they've doubled down that they did everything right. That even, like, it feels like reopening the investigation is just to say that they did right. We learned about this guy, Andrew Alvarado. He was the guy that was playing basketball outside with the, quote, pastor. He was one that called the cop, he was the one that called 911 and then handed the phone to the guy.

[C]

This time investigators learned a new detail.

[B]

I left the go drop them off. I guess I had to go eat dinner or whatever.

[C]

He had actually left the church grounds during those six hours to drive the teenagers home, he says, and wasn't sure what the pastor was doing while he was gone.

[A]

So there's all of this time that is completely unaccounted for. Like this guy's alibi is out the window.

[B]

Yeah. And he's like, I actually didn't know what he was doing in the time I was gone.

[A]

His alibi went. Alibi.

[B]

I fucking fuck you. Thanks for nothing, Andrew.

[A]

Alibi. Bye.

[B]

Like, peace out, you piece of shit. Andrew Ignor.

[A]

Where we go?

[B]

Don't think you're off the hook, Andrew. No. So the issue is that apparently the physical evidence looks like a suicide. That's. That is the issue that the family keeps running into and the cops can kind of hang their hat on.

[A]

Well, the cop keeps coming back. The guy who's here from the sheriff's office to speak on their behalf keeps saying no matter what, there was no evidence on the body that indicated another person was involved in her death. How do you know that? Like, we were told that they did not send investigators to the scene.

[B]

And so they're only. Only they're as. I'm sorry to say it this way, like Joanna's body is the only evidence. So they. They say that nothing looks like a suicide the first time around. And now that they've reopened the case, they have this new doctor who also says that there's no evidence that. That it is not a suicide.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So the case is closed again until for whatever reason in 2015, the county district attorney's office decides to do some DNA testing. I'm like, can we get some like, details about how you did this? I know there are a lot of cases that need this. They just like woke up one day and decided to. To test the evidence.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Hello.

[A]

This smells of Matt Murphy to me. But like. But he works in Orange County. He had something to do with.

[B]

I hope so. Anyway, they test the sash from the robe. Joanna's DNA is on it as well as an unknown males. That's not shitty husband Mark.

[A]

Now here's the thing. They put it in codis, which is like the national database for DNA. They say it got no hits. That was the last. That's all they did. Can somebody please go swab those fuckers who threw the Molotov cocktail Through the window. That sounds like the hen for the past year.

[B]

And the DNA has never been identified. To this day, I'm like, at the

[A]

very least, go swab those guys.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

I know.

[B]

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[C]

No, no, you can.

[A]

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[A]

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tco sam.com tco tell them the bad news. Taxes and fees apply, but from your own home.

[A]

From your own home.

[B]

From the privacy of your own own home. 2023 entered Dr. Bill Smock.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

He was hired by the sheriff's department to look at the case. He knows Joanna is murdered.

[C]

He is sure that Joanna was murdered and says he can prove it.

[A]

Every injury will tell you a story if you take the time to analyze it. Every injury will tell you a story if you take the time to analyze it.

[B]

This guy know? We're told he knows his shit. He's done thousands of autopsies. He's worked all over the country. He's been called as an expert witness, including against Derek Chauvin, who murdered George Floyd. Y Did you know that Derek Chauvin was also found guilty of, like, some pretty hefty tax evasion charges.

[A]

No.

[B]

Yeah, sure beats like a counterfeit $20 bill, right, Derek?

[A]

Is he in prison?

[B]

Yes. Fuck that guy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So he analyzes the information and he finds something new. He says that there was a braided nylon marine rope three feet away from Joanna.

[A]

And we see it because at least, thank God, they photographed the crime scene. Like, they didn't. They didn't investigate the crime, but they at least photographed it.

[B]

And he. And the rope, he says, is the only thing that could have made the marks on Joann Joanna's neck. And I'm like, wait, wait a second. Are you telling me what that means is, if I'm understanding this correctly, is that the marks on Joanna's neck are consistent with a suicide, yet they are also inconsistent with the way she supposedly did it. But, but on top of that, multiple autopsies didn't catch that discrepancy. Yeah. What they're telling us, right?

[A]

Yes. And it's. It's so he says she was dead when the bathrobe sash was applied to her neck. Joanna's scene was staged. She was killed with a rope. And then to make it look like a suicide, she was hung up by the bathrobe sash. After she was already dead, she died. And then to stage the crime scene, he hung her from the tie of the bathrobe.

[B]

So two different doctors who did two different autopsies didn't notice that the marks on Joanna's neck that caused her suicide, so to speak, are not consistent with the terry cloth robe that she used to do it. Do you see what I'm saying?

[A]

I do. And unfortunately, that's going to be the thing that's going to come back to bite us because we're with this guy, Dr. Smock, and he sounds amazing because he does, like, this reenactment of the. The exact same kind of rope on these mannequins. And he uses this red paint. And what he does is that he dips the rope in this red paint, then puts it around the neck of a mannequin. And you can see the marks that the rope would have made because it's like the, you know, how the rope was braided or whatever.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then we see a picture of the autopsy photo of her neck, which are told it was used with the family's permission, which I love.

[B]

I want to slow down on that because we get. It's a very, very, very small piece of an autopsy photo.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's Zoomed in on just the small part we need to see. And everything else is blurred out. And we are told by Natalie Morales that the family said that was okay. I would like more of this.

[A]

I know.

[B]

I love that we don't always need to see as much of photos as we. As we are often shown.

[A]

I would say we should probably see far less.

[B]

Far less. And, like, I just appreciate the way. Giving us the visual that is so. Because this is such a big deal. It's so important to the case, but showing it in a. Makes sense for the storytelling and not, like, gross and disturbing and disrespectful.

[A]

Yeah. I hate to say it. This evidence isn't super convincing to me. I have. I really. I have no doubt that he killed her. I just don't know that this is the evidence. But what he's saying, what Dr. Smock, who I think is very smart and I like him a lot, and he's like, he is determined not just to help Joanna, but, like, other victims. And we'll learn more about that in a minute. But he's showing us that, like, he wraps the rope around the neck of the mannequin, and then we. It zooms in on. On the. On the autopsy photo, and we're told that they look exactly alike. I don't really know. I couldn't really see the autopsy photo well enough to really see that. But that's not even necessary. I think the awful cop that we hate makes a kind of a good point later, which I'll just say here.

[C]

The sheriff's office took issue with the fact that Dr. Smock is not a forensic pathologist. Harris also took issue with Smock's methods.

[A]

This is not someone who has their body weight hanging. This is simply draped over a mannequin. That is not how she was killed. Joanna was found hanging with, like, her full body weight. And, like, this was just sort of, like, loosely draped around him. I don't love this evidence.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But I. I don't think we need this evidence. I think that, like, the circumstantial evidence of the fact that he's choked her six fucking times.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

His history of violence and his complete disregard for human life is enough for me.

[B]

Another thing that's crazy with Dr. Smock is that he signed an NDA. So he has this evidence, but he can't speak to the family directly. He can only spe to the lieutenant and, like, trust that he's going to tell the family.

[A]

Yeah. And he's eventually let out of that NDA because His findings are overruled. So that's how he's able to talk to us now.

[B]

Yeah. So we meet Casey Gwynne and Gail Strack. They are founders of alliance for Hope International, which is an advocacy group for survivors of domestic violence and their families. I spent a lot of time on their website today. I donated to it. You should.

[A]

I love that.

[B]

Awesome.

[A]

Can I just pause for one second?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The reason I'm saying that that evidence isn't really super strong to me is because I couldn't see the autopsy photo they showed us. Well, to really understand what he was

[B]

saying, I saw the pattern pretty clearly. I guess maybe it would have been helpful if he was like, this is what a terry cloth robe would have looked like if we saw those things zoomed in for comparison, I guess. But when I saw that, I was kind of like, oh, my thing is,

[A]

I would like that evidence presented as, like, this is what could have happened.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Not like this is what definitely did happen, because I think that that that's just more circumstantial evidence to throw on the pile.

[B]

Well, because the reason they're hanging their hat on the autopsy for being like, we can't do anything about this. And so I think that's why Dr. Smock is relying on that so much. Or like, saying, like, no, you should look at this.

[A]

What we're gonna learn here from Casey and Gail, I think is even more important, because I think what we're like, what we're reminded of here, what we learn in Ellen Greenberg and we've seen in other cases, is once the cops show up on the scene and the crime scene is not preserved, we're fud. We'll never be able to prove it.

[B]

Right. So Casey calls this a hidden homicide.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he says domestic violence homicides are the number one staged murders in America. Let that sink in for a second. We're about to give you some numbers that are going to blow.

[A]

I was going to say, this is not. This is like one of many truth bombs we get from them.

[B]

If then. So I'm like, that's huge. Yeah, that's huge to know.

[A]

What he then follows it up with. He says, the fact is that if you strangle a woman one time in an intimate relationship, she's 750% more likely to be killed by you. You are 750% more likely to be killed by this person that you're going back to right now.

[B]

Yeah. And, you know, I got a lot of DMS about our coverage of Don't Date Brandon, People wanted. Were saying that, like, well, it's not just the. Like, I came pretty hard for the cops because I thought that was egregious, like, how they treated these women.

[A]

I think that's a pretty fair take.

[B]

But people wanted to. Wanted me to know that, like, I can't have it both ways. Like sometimes, you know, like, I don't believe in the death penalty because of, like, evidence and the law and all that stuff. And so people wanted me to know that, like, well, like, the cops are only acting on what the law says. Let me explain my issues with this. And this will be outdated because this is one of our bonus episodes, I'm sure. Oh, yeah.

[A]

See you in the summer, Fab.

[B]

I'm sure I'll say 10 million times before that too.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

My point is that it's the entire system and that it trickles down so that the cops can act like this because then the system is so maddening because the data overwhelmingly says what it says and the system is built to ignore it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we're about to learn from a cop for the one millionth time on this podcast. Like, we're about to see it in action. So when the data says that they. That women are 750% more likely to be killed by a man, that's hit her before. But there's no system that in place.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like, the data says one thing and the system acts another.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And that is what is so fudgeing frustrating from top to bottom. And it's all affected. So, yeah, like, that is why. That is what my point of view is.

[A]

And what was the counterpoint? What were people saying is wrong with that?

[B]

Counterpoint is like, well, it's not just cop. Like, laws need to change too. And I'm like, I get that. But like, we all need to work together because we're like the. We're about to see my point in action right now because we're. We meet Captain Harris. He reviewed the case with 48 hours and he's here to talk shit about Dr. Smock. Because he's like.

[C]

And so what Dr. Smock called the murder weapon was never examined. But where is the rope?

[A]

I don't have the rope. I don't know. We also don't have every electrical cord that was there. We didn't go through the garage to look for absolutely everything.

[B]

He's like, I don't know, you dumb girl. Like, we don't have it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And we also don't have every other thing that was in the house. You fucking Idiot. Like that's how he's talking about.

[A]

No, he's very defensive. And he said, saying that the cops didn't have access to the information about this guy's like, violent past when they. When they came that night to find the body. And if they had, he says, and I quote, it would have been a very different investigation.

[B]

But he. But before that, she says, was the history of domestic violence missed? And this asshole says, no. He goes, I don't think it was missed. And he says, even if we knew, nothing would have changed.

[A]

But that's a contradictory statement. How can you saying it wasn't missed but you're acknowledging that you didn't see it?

[B]

And his attitude gets worse because he says other. This is a direct quote. Other than creating a hypothetical situation that Mark murdered her. There is no evidence to support that. The way he says murdered in this mocking tone is fucking unbelievable. Yeah, and like, her name is Joanna, by the way. You fucking prick. Yeah, like, don't. Like, oh, like, oh, like this hypothetic. It's not that hypothetical. He was in prison for domestic violence. And I'm like, hey, sheriff's office. This guy is the best he got.

[A]

I know.

[B]

Were all the good apples busy that day? They couldn't sit down for camera. Like, what are we doing here? This is who's representing you?

[A]

And then. And then he says, if. If we had known about the history of violence, this would have been a very different investigation. So Natalie Morales is like, great. So is the case still ongoing? No, it's closed. You could reopen the case at any moment, sir.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You have the information now with the

[B]

attitude that he's talking his responses. And Natalie Morales isn't giving attitude to him, which I think he deserves. She's being incredibly professional and even handed. She's just asking him questions.

[A]

I know.

[B]

Is such a smug little brat.

[A]

And my. My thing too is just the. Can you just acknowledge that maybe you could have handled this differently? Maybe you don't. Maybe you don't close a case after 28 minutes.

[B]

Right. Like, Joanna died tragically no matter what. You asshole. Can you just like, talk about her like she's a person?

[A]

We're back with Gail and Casey.

[C]

Gail and Casey's experience with Joanna's case led them to create a checklist of 10 factors to be considered by. By law enforcement. They had begun drafting a new law, a law that included the red flags that could signal a homicide.

[A]

We've never had a case with all 10 that wasn't a homicide. Joanna Hunter had all 10 factors.

[B]

Joanna Hunter had all 10, and I'm going to read them to you. One, victim dies prematurely or unexpectedly. Two, appears to be a suicide or accident scene. Three, one, partner wanted to end the relationship. Four, prior history of domestic violence or. Or coercive control, which I think is perfect word.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Five, victim found dead in home or place of residence. Six, victim found by current or previous partner. Seven, prior history of strangulation slash suffocation by partner, including prior relationships. Eight, partner is the last to see victim alive. Nine, partner has control of the crime scene before the police arrive. And 10, crime scene is altered in some way. She had all of them.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And Casey and Gail say we've never had a case with all 10 that wasn't a homicide.

[A]

How was the crime scene altered? What did. Was it by, like, him cutting her down? Did he cut her down?

[B]

No, I think he didn't try. Whatever. I mean, they said she had all 10.

[A]

Oh, no, no, I'm not. I'm not questioning you. I'm just curious. Yeah. Because I'm also doing the checklist for Ellen Greenberg. I'm, like, obsessed with that.

[B]

I know.

[A]

And I don't know that she has all 10 of those, but she's got at least eight of them.

[B]

And they're not even saying you have

[A]

to have all 10, but they do say, we've never seen a case where all 10 exist and it wasn't a homicide.

[B]

Exactly. So this piece of shit, Pastor Mark

[C]

Lewis, has not been charged with any crime relating to the death of Joanna. After serving five years for the firebombing of Sarah Nottingham's house, he was released on parole.

[B]

And he's released on parole after five years for firebombing Sarah and her family. So he walks among us.

[A]

By the way, the number of times they said firebombing, that's insane.

[B]

And that's exactly what he did.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So he lives in Arizona. He's fucking married.

[A]

I know.

[B]

And at first I was like, wow, I really hope she sees this and gets out of here. And then I see the look she shoots Natalie Morales.

[A]

Now, wait a second, because 48 hours say we tried to reach him repeatedly. We received no response. And then, quote, we go to a commercial show. We come back, quote, after suiting up with hidden cameras, we decided to go in person. Natalie Morales is in Arizona.

[B]

She's like, oh, no. Guess I have to make a surprise visit.

[A]

Oh, my God. I was screaming. She goes up to the house.

[B]

Very nice to the dogs, by the way.

[A]

I was going to say the dogs Are barking their heads.

[B]

Very nice.

[A]

Yes. Those dogs are. What they're saying in dog is save us. Yeah, get us out of here. Like they want out of there.

[B]

Very happy homes. Don't DM me and say otherwise.

[A]

So we see Natalie Morales questioning this piece of shit who's just standing in the front yard. She's basically like people just. We want to hear your side of the story, sir. We want to hear what? Do you have anything to say? Because we see his wife standing right beside him.

[B]

Yeah. And. And his father in law is in

[A]

the garage because Mark storms off into the house. Natalie turns to the father in law. I don't know how she knows it's the father in law. But she turns to him, he's in the garage. And she goes up to him and. And she says, he does not turn and run away. This man stays to like look at Natalie Morales. And she's saying to him, do you have any concerns for your daughter given Mark history with domestic violence and this guy is hemming and hawing. And I'm like, he wants to talk to her.

[B]

He says, I know the whole story.

[A]

Yes, I know the whole story.

[C]

Did you know his late wife, Joanna Hunter?

[B]

Yes, I did.

[C]

Did you go to the church?

[A]

Yeah, I did.

[C]

You did?

[A]

Okay.

[C]

I know this is a difficult. This is a difficult situation, but we just.

[A]

We want to make. This is really unnecessary.

[B]

I know the whole story. He knew Joanna because he was in the church cult and he, quote, feels for Joanna's family. But this is all very unnecessary. There's nothing to say. It's over, it's done. And I'm like, but it doesn't have to be you asshole.

[A]

And I honestly don't think he feels that way. I think this is one of those shocking moments where he's like, oh my God. Oh my God. Like, like I was saying, you off Mike. Does he live with them to protect his daughter from this guy?

[B]

I don't know, but. Step up.

[A]

I know, I know, I know. But maybe, maybe that's what he. Who knows? What do we know? Like, but you know, maybe he is like living there to. To keep this guy from killing her.

[B]

I don't know. It seems like they're all protecting this piece of shit. That's what it seems like to me.

[A]

All of them, all of that. That's totally fair. But I was just shocked that he didn't just turn and walk inside. Like I felt to me like he wanted to talk.

[B]

I don't know. Well, he looks like that other piece of shit cop. Like this is the best you have?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That red light means that it's on and we're recording.

[A]

So this is what I wanted to say before, because in the end we learned that Senate Bill 989, also known as Joanna's Law, becomes California state law on January 1, 2025. It passes unanimously. And this law is amazing.

[C]

Joanna's Law requires investigators responding to reported suicides, drug overdoses, or fatal accidents to check for a history of domestic violence. And if there is a documented history of domestic violence, to assume that this is a suspicious death.

[A]

And if there is a documented history of domestic violence, to assume that this is a suspicious death and then treat the crime scene like a homicide. That is amazing. I do not want to take anything away from Joanna's family for getting that passed. That is wonderful. But what breaks my heart about this is that it seems like the only thing. And I've said this to. We've talked about this so many times. The only laws we can get past are just about getting the son of a bitch after he kills the lady.

[B]

Yeah. And this should also be federal.

[A]

Yes, yes. But even before we get to that, I just wanna say that, like, it is heartbreaking to me and devastating and so frustrating that, like, we are celebrating this law being passed. That is wonderful. It should be celebrated and congratulations to the family. But the only laws we can get passed are just about getting the guy after the fact.

[B]

Yeah. And the system is completely and totally broken. Especially when we have. We've come so far in terms of, like, support. Support and data and research and numbers and math and patterns. Like, everything else is evolving with knowledge except the system. And it makes me crazy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because it's just like how the numbers are just going to keep going up. The percentages are just going to keep going up. And we're sitting here throwing our hands up saying, like, there's nothing we can do until he kills you. Like, I won't stand for that.

[A]

We are seeing people, like, amazing people saying there are things we can do and some of them are doing it.

[B]

But the system has to. Isn't changing enough to actually make real.

[A]

I know. And it feels. Everything feels like a workaround because, like, even. And don't date Brandon. Like, Athena and Amber were talking about how they want, like, a national database so that when women go on dates, they can literally google the person they're going on a date with to see if they've ever been to fudgeing prison for killing somebody.

[B]

And this guy's going to be. That asshole is going to be out before we know it.

[A]

But even that, even if Amber and Athena get what they want, that's still a workaround. It's still not fixing the. It's not even touching the problem. All it's doing is arming women to defend themselves.

[B]

And who did the investigation? They did.

[A]

Right. Right.

[B]

They did.

[A]

And I just refuse to believe that there's nobody in the system who isn't trying to make it better. I have to believe that there are people out there trying to do it. And I understand that things move slowly, but it seems like whenever we get a win on a federal level or even at a state level, like, it is here with a law being changed, it's only ever about getting the guy after the fact.

[B]

Yeah. And not federal. So it's like, you know, so it's like, I'm really like, California, awesome.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But not everyone lives in California.

[A]

Not everyone lives in California.

[B]

So Joanna's family is hoping, though, that they're going to take this win and try to use the momentum like they did before. You know, like, hopefully things will move forward for the rest of us. We're back with Joe, Joanna's brother, and his wife, Katie.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

She's a sideline reporter for the Sacramento Kings. She's a former player in the wnba, and she's a Survivor.

[A]

This woman is incredible.

[B]

Awesome. And, like, Joe and Katie talk about their daughter and how they. They speak to her. She's freaking six years old. But it's never too early to talk to their daughter about domestic violence.

[A]

But it's also conversations that we have

[B]

with Jojo, with our son, because it is our responsibility to also teach him what is acceptable behavior and treatment of women. Talk to your kids. Everyone. Talk to your sons.

[A]

Yes, talk to your son. I mean, obviously talk to your daughters, but more, not more importantly, but just as importantly, talk to your fucking sons.

[B]

It's like toxic masculinity that is taking over. And these kids are always on the Internet. Like, please, talk to your sons. Like, it's a very dangerous time for people to just, like, be. To be out in the world.

[A]

And like, fathers and legal guardians who are men. Like, we have to set a good example, like, you know, for the young men in our lives, for the young women, for the young people in our lives. Like, we have to. We have to set that example.

[B]

And so Joe Hunter says that he absolutely used Survivor to advocate for a sister. He was like, I was on season 48. I'm on season 50 now. And he's always using the show to help Joanna and others like her and their family. And Patricia, Joanna's mother, is doing the same. Like, she's always working with family justice centers and resources. And this ends with, like, keep fighting. We know it's exhausting. Never give up. And we get 1-800-799-SAFE or the hotline.org if you or someone you know needs resources or help.

[A]

Oh, girl. We did 48 hours. Joe Huntsman's mission. I wanted to say, too, that the California Department of Justice has agreed to review the Solano County DA's decision not to bring criminal charges related to Joanna's death. So we'll see. Like, there could be movement. In that case, I set a Google alert. We'll see. We get.

[B]

That would be wonderful. Because the more we can. You know, it sucks. It's still. It's always after the fact. But, like, the system has to start responding to the facts.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That's it. That's the bottom line. And I'm going to be mad about it until they do.

[A]

Yeah, no, me, too. And, fam, we love you. Thank you for hanging out with us. We love these bonus episodes.

[B]

Yeah. Stay safe, please. We love you so much.

[A]

Please do stay safe.

[B]

God.

[A]

Okay, bye.

[B]

We love you.