508: Secrets in the Ashes

Summary

True Crime Obsessed, Episode 508: "Secrets in the Ashes"

Release Date: June 23, 2026
Podcast Hosts: Patrick Hines & Jillian Benavale
Summary By: [YOUR NAME]

Episode Overview

In this award-winning episode, Patrick and Jillian recap and dissect the Dateline episode “Secrets in the Ashes,” a story of arson, murder, family trauma, and shocking incompetence by authorities. The episode covers the 2003 murder of Patricia Lee Mills in Goliad, Texas, her son’s miraculous escape, and the years-long battle by her family to force police to acknowledge the crime. Along the way, the hosts blend humor, rage, and empathy, introducing a wild cast of villains—with more than one true-crime twist.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Fire, the Escape, and Immediate Suspicions

• Scene Set: 2003, Goliad, Texas. Six-year-old John Michael escapes a house fire by climbing out his bedroom window after tossing out his toy box. His mother, Patricia Lee Mills, does not survive.
• [02:12-04:13]
  • Quote (John Michael, 03:01): “I went through my bedroom window. Tossed my toy box out the window. My toy box went out and I went after it.”
• Obvious Foul Play:
  • The house is full of kerosene lanterns.
  • The back door is padlocked from the outside, and another door is blocked by a bed (“She was locked into this house. But, like, she was murdered.” – Jillian, 04:13).
  • Both Patrick & Jillian repeatedly highlight both arson and murder are clear, despite fire investigators declaring it “inconclusive.”
  • Quote (Patrick, 00:10): “Yeah. And so the official answer, I'm like, I'm screaming arson.”

2. The Family Dynamics—Spotlight on John Michael and Delbert

• [05:10–11:17]
  • Patricia Lee’s family—and the hosts—immediately focus on husband Delbert Mills as a suspect:
    • He discourages the use of electricity, forcing the family to use multiple kerosene lamps as primary lighting (safety nightmare).
    • He is described by all as abusive, controlling, and generally loathsome.
    • Shows zero empathy for his traumatized son (“He looked me stone cold in my face and your mom's dead.” – John Michael, 05:52).
  • Within hours of Patricia’s death, Delbert arranges for John Michael to be sent to Patricia’s family (“He wants to talk logistics.” – Patrick, 10:42).
  • Quote (Jillian, 10:26): “All you want to do is be like with your kid and shielding them from any other trauma…Not this piece of shit.”

3. Official Investigation—Disbelief and Frustration

• [11:27–14:56]
  • Despite evidence (padlocked door, family’s insistence of actual lamp use, Delbert’s history and behavior), authorities rule the fire’s cause as undetermined and close the case.
  • The family is infuriated and starts their own investigation.

4. The Lanterns and Power, A Symbol of Control

• [14:11–15:26]
  • Kerosene lamps were NOT decorative, but mandatory due to Delbert’s insistence on not using electricity.
  • Hosts discuss at length how this is a tool of control and creates a dangerous, abusive, “doomsday prepper” household.
  • Quote (Jillian, 13:32): “It was a control move. Literally. Weirdo. Probably Doomsday Prepper.”
  • Quote (Andrea Canning, 14:11): “Lee would have to make sure that dinner was cooked before sundown. Otherwise she would have to cook using a lantern…”

5. The Aftermath: Delbert’s Remarriage and Ongoing Suspicions

• [15:56–18:23]
  • Six weeks after the fire, Delbert is engaged to Alison Newman, raising huge red flags.
  • Alison had previously lived with Delbert and Patricia, sleeping on John Michael’s floor.
  • Confirmed affair between Delbert and Alison before Patricia’s death.
  • Timeline: Alison moves in → gets kicked out after affair discovered → fire, Patricia’s death → quick engagement.

6. The Family’s DIY Investigation and Police Inaction

• [21:19–23:34]
  • Patricia’s sister Sharon actively pursues tips to the police, insists Delbert set the fire, and documents Delbert’s abusive nature.
  • Police repeatedly dismiss these claims.
  • Quote (Andrea Canning, 23:04): “Delbert spoke up and said the only way she’d be leaving is in a body bag.”

7. Seven Years Later: A New Sheriff and New Momentum

• [25:03–26:16]
  • New sheriff Mike Thompson is the first to take the family seriously, but too much evidence has been lost/destroyed.
  • Suggests authorities’ inaction allowed Delbert to “get away with it” for years.

8. Delbert’s Suspicious Statements, Boasts, and ‘Confessions’

• [27:32–29:03]
  • Delbert even boasts to multiple people about getting away with murder.
  • Offers to “help” others with accidental fires for insurance.
  • Hosts are exasperated at the serial incompetence of police in not investigating further.

9. The Break—Recordings, New Charges, and Delbert’s Arrest

• [32:23–36:47]
  • Eventually, Delbert is arrested and convicted based on cumulative testimony and his own admissions.
  • Family and hosts believe Alison was involved but there is insufficient evidence to prosecute her.
  • Quote (John Michael, 34:28): “In his statement, he pinpoints the actual origin of…fire…he would not have known that. Only the killer would know.”

10. The Twist: Alison’s New Life—and Alleged Hit-for-Hire Plot

• [39:36–55:52]
  • Years later, Alison (now with a new husband, Patrick, and new surname) tries to enlist an old high school boyfriend, James, to kill her current husband.
  • James records hours of phone calls of Alison detailing murder plots, including exploiting his allergies; she even discusses “the widow process.”
  • Police ignore the evidence until James and others post everything online, forcing authorities to act.
  • Alison is arrested, ultimately takes a plea deal for a 16-year sentence.

11. Character Deep Dives & Side Stories

• James—Sex Offender/Nazi: Hosts do not gloss over James’s past as a convicted sex offender and his political affiliations, expressing dismay at Dateline’s platforming of him.
• Alison’s Career as a Scammer: She attempts (and fails) to launch a political career, scams people with fake illnesses, orchestrates fake events, and burns every bridge she can.
• Criminology Kate: Community member who helps expose Alison’s fraud, demonstrating what competent true-crime investigation looks like.

12. Final Showdown: Andreas Canning vs. Delbert (and Alison)

• [57:10–61:32]
  • Alison sits for an interview but denies all, blames everyone else.
  • Delbert, in prison, maintains innocence and pivots to blaming his own son for the fire.
  • Andrea Canning loses patience and calls Delbert out for being a terrible father and a despicable human.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Patrick (00:10): "I'm screaming arson."
• Jillian (04:13): "She was locked into this house. But, like, she was murdered."
• John Michael (05:52): “My dad pulls up... he looks me stone cold in my face and your mom’s dead.”
• Jillian (10:26): "All you want to do is be with your kid and shield them... Not this piece of shit."
• Patrick (13:32): “It was a control move. Literally. Weirdo. Probably Doomsday Prepper.”
• Andrea Canning (23:04): "Delbert spoke up and said the only way she'd be leaving is in a body bag."
• John Michael (34:28): "He would not have known that. Only the killer would know."
• Alison, re the hit-for-hire (52:16): “The only thing that’s going to suck is I have to go through the whole ... widow process.”
• Andrea Canning, confronting Delbert (60:25): “You're not going to win father of the year anytime soon.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:12–04:13]: The fire, John Michael’s escape, and details of the house.
• [05:10–11:17]: Delbert’s aftermath actions and family insights.
• [14:11–15:26]: The kerosene lanterns, electricity ban, as a symbol of domestic control.
• [15:56–18:23]: Alison and Delbert’s relationship, affair, and rapid engagement.
• [21:19–23:34]: Patricia’s family investigation; Delbert’s abusive threats.
• [27:32–29:03]: Delbert’s boasts and offers to commit more “accidents.”
• [32:23–36:47]: Delbert’s arrest, trial, and role of family testimony.
• [39:36–55:52]: The Alison hit-for-hire plot, James’ recordings, and Alison’s arrest.
• [57:10–61:32]: Climactic interviews: Alison’s denials, Delbert blaming his son, Andrea Canning’s confrontation.
• [61:32–62:11]: John Michael’s closing thoughts, his journey to healing.

---

Tone & Style

Both hosts balance their signature humor and irreverence (“fuck you, Delbert”) with deep empathy for John Michael and righteous anger at the failures of law enforcement. The tone is hilariously scathing towards the villains and warmly supportive to the victims.

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Conclusion: Takeaways

• John Michael’s survival and subsequent healing, aided by extended family, stands as the rare source of hope.
• The case exposes deep flaws in small-town investigations, patriarchal control, and belated justice.
• Alison’s extensive fraud, coupled with James’s problematic involvement, illustrate the recurring presence of bad actors in true crime—and the tenacity required from victims’ families and communities to get justice.

“In conclusion, long live John Michael. I’m your biggest fan.” – Patrick (62:17)

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For Further Discussion

Join the True Crime Obsessed Facebook group or Discord to talk more about this case, cathartically bash Delbert and Alison, and support survivors like John Michael.

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Next Episode:
The Many Lives of Benjamin Kyle (Stay tuned for more Dateline recaps and true-crime analysis, equal parts shocking and hilarious).

Transcript

[Patrick Hines]

All of these kerosene lamps are found where the fire was the most intense. This is arson and murder.

[Jillian Betavale]

But unless you're the fire investigators for whom those kerosene lanterns are. What did they call them? Decorative only.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And so the official answer, I'm like, I'm screaming arson.

[Jillian Betavale]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Of course, the official answer is inconclusive.

[Jillian Betavale]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And I'm like, well, did anyone talk to them about the freaking padlock?

[Andrea Canning]

Hi.

[Jillian Betavale]

Jillian Betavale. Hello.

[Patrick Hines]

Patrick Hines.

[Jillian Betavale]

Girl, what are we talking about today?

[Patrick Hines]

This is a Dateline. It's called Secrets in the Ashes, Season 34, Episode 21. When this came out, everyone was up in arms. Understandably.

[Jillian Betavale]

This is really a crazy, crazy episode. So, yeah, if you love ones where we meet people that you like, you just hate. Like, this is just full of bad people. One or two good guys that Andrea

[Patrick Hines]

Canning is not holding back.

[Jillian Betavale]

So Andrea Canning is throwing her journalism degree out the window. Not that she didn't do an incredible job with this, but she's crying, she's yelling.

[Patrick Hines]

I think that's good journalism to say like, you're full of shit.

[Jillian Betavale]

Yes, I couldn't agree more.

[Patrick Hines]

Also, peacock, once again, I'm going to say this every time until you fix it.

[Jillian Betavale]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

The closed captions on the day Dateline episodes are still on a delay. It is very frustrating.

[Jillian Betavale]

It's a you made a mad peacock.

[Patrick Hines]

But also, Dateline doesn't use any lower thirds for anyone's names.

[Jillian Betavale]

That is my accent, and I want

[Patrick Hines]

to get the name right and the spelling right. It would be helpful if you're not four sentences ahead when I'm still looking for the name.

[Jillian Betavale]

I couldn't agree more.

[Patrick Hines]

Some of us showed up to work today.

[Jillian Betavale]

Can we do a change.org thing up in here?

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, it just makes me crazy.

[Jillian Betavale]

Same.

[Patrick Hines]

And I know I'm not alone.

[John Michael]

No, that's all tonight on Dateline.

[Patrick Hines]

It can't go down as a homicide. Go down as anything but an accident.

[John Michael]

She wanted me to kill her husband. She sent me a picture, like, here he is. Go get him.

[Jillian Betavale]

I have to go through the crying and the whole widow process.

[Narrator/Reporter]

You can hear her complaining that she'll have to be the grieving widow.

[John Michael]

It would all just be an act. Gave me chills that made me think this is something she's done before.

[Andrea Canning]

I thought back to the affair. It made me question her part in my aunt's murder. There was fire. She didn't make it out.

[John Michael]

Just when you think the story we couldn't get any bigger, it just goes on and on.

[Jillian Betavale]

It's 2003, we're in Goliad, Texas. We meet Mildred Pugh. Now poor Mildred was just trying to drive to the grocery store. She needed milk and eggs. She sees like smoke and a house on fire.

[Patrick Hines]

Like a house on fire.

[Jillian Betavale]

Literally a house on fire.

[Patrick Hines]

There's a child, a six year old boy, this poor kid outside the house. And the kid is named John Michael. He's here with us today. So he is okay?

[Jillian Betavale]

Yes. Mildred jumps out of the car, the little boy is screaming at her. My mom is in that. Can you get her out?

[Patrick Hines]

And so it's. Patricia Lee Mills is John Michael's mother.

[Jillian Betavale]

31 years old.

[Patrick Hines]

And John Michael, who's an adult now describes this harrowing ordeal. His mother is screaming. He is trapped in the house that is in flames. And he's trying to get out.

[Jillian Betavale]

Yeah, he gets out. This was like just as a parent, this was such a kid thing.

[John Michael]

I went through my bedroom window. Yeah, my bedroom window was the furthest away from the. The fire. Tossed my toy box out the window. My toy box went out and I went after it.

[Jillian Betavale]

John Michael was getting out, but be damned if he didn't throw his toy box out first. He threw his toy box out the window, followed it out.

[Patrick Hines]

I know he shouldn't even have to be doing this at all.

[Jillian Betavale]

I mean the trauma is with him like to this day as a. I

[Patrick Hines]

mean I don't mean to say as it should be flippantly, but like this is your mom. I know you and your mom are in the worst position ever and like you suddenly you have to be the adult and like break out the window.

[Jillian Betavale]

And the thing about this, that's so. One of the many things about the. That is so horrifying is that because the house is so full of smoke and it's small, the mother does not necessarily know that her son has gotten out. So the mother, the son is outside but she hasn't gotten out. Cuz she's trying to make sure that he is out.

[Patrick Hines]

And so Mildred, our witness is trying to help. And two good Samaritans have also stopped to help. How do you not that like house is involved in flames?

[Jillian Betavale]

No.

[Patrick Hines]

And this is where we learn there is a padlock on the back door. Locked from the outside.

[Jillian Betavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And these amazing witnesses and helpers look for the helpers. Right Mr. Rogers.

[John Michael]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

They have to break into the house to try to save Patricia Lee John Michaels mom. And we. She unfortunately has perished in the fire.

[Jillian Betavale]

She's like succumbed to the smoke inhalation. She was Locked into this house. But, like, she was murdered.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm like, okay, this is not an accident.

[Jillian Betavale]

No.

[Patrick Hines]

Who has a padlock? Locked from the outside of padlock.

[Jillian Betavale]

No.

[Patrick Hines]

Who even had like. For what reason would you have a padlock?

[Jillian Betavale]

You were considering padlocks for the.

[Patrick Hines]

It's got to be enormous. I know they're a little padlocks, but I had this evil fucking supervillain. I know who did this. This like, piece of shit person.

[Jillian Betavale]

Thank the Lord, John Michael was able to like, kick his way out the window. Absolutely harrowing and unbelievable. The firefighters arrived, they put out the fire. They find Patricia like dead in the front bedroom. Awful.

[Patrick Hines]

And this poor six year old whose life has been changed forever up ended

[Jillian Betavale]

at 6 years old. And now we meet Jessica Leffert. So she's John Michael's cousin. She was 18 when this happened. And her mom, who's Patricia's sister, calls her to, like, tell her what happened. And we're going to learn that Jessica and Patricia were like super close. His family was very tight.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. So the husband, because of course, I'm like, where's the husband? Yeah, I want eyes on the husb. Husband now. His name? Delbert Mills.

[Jillian Betavale]

Now look, if your name is Delbert and you're not this piece of shit, you're fine.

[Patrick Hines]

Or if you know a Delbert who's not him. Great. If you know him.

[Jillian Betavale]

Yeah. Delbert is like the derpiest name. Unless it's your name.

[Patrick Hines]

Tell him I just want to talk. I just want to talk for two seconds in.

[Jillian Betavale]

What do you mean, set the scene?

[Patrick Hines]

I just want to make a phone call.

[Jillian Betavale]

Okay.

[Patrick Hines]

A phone call where maybe someone would go pay him a visit.

[Jillian Betavale]

Yeah, she knows.

[Patrick Hines]

And be like, wow, those are really shitty knees you have. It would not be a shame at all if I destroyed them this.

[Jillian Betavale]

So he was at work when he got the call that the fire started.

[Narrator/Reporter]

He arrived at the scene to learn his wife was dead and his son was outside in an ambulance.

[John Michael]

My dad pulls up and jumps in the back of the ambulance and he looks me stone cold in my face and your mom's dead.

[Patrick Hines]

And he looked right at John, the six year old, and just said, your mom's dead. Fuck you.

[Jillian Betavale]

This is where Andrea Canning is. Like, you were six. I have a six year old son. I understand how like six year olds processing. Canning is sobbing. We're not five minutes into this thing. She's sobbing, John Micha sobbing. I'm sobbing.

[Patrick Hines]

Jessica, the cousin. And so, like, investigators are trying to figure out what the hell happened. And the house itself is described as a fire trap.

[Jillian Betavale]

Now, the thing about this house, we're going to learn. It's 500 square feet. It is a very small house. This house went up quickly and it just burned. For Jesus, girl. This episode is brought to you by IQ Bar. It's all of us by IQ Bar. Frankly, our exclusive snack sponsor, IQ Bars,

[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian Betavale]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian Betavale]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian Betavale]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Andrea Canning]

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[Jillian Betavale]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian Betavale]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian Betavale]

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[Patrick Hines]

That's TCO to 64,000.

[Jillian Betavale]

Message and dating rights may apply. See terms for details, Fam. Before we get back to the show, just a reminder, we've got a Facebook group. There's like 60,000 people in it. You should join it.

[Patrick Hines]

And same for Discord.

[Jillian Betavale]

Yes. These are the places where you can go to, like, on days when we don't have episodes. But you're missing your true crime. Tco, fam. Go like, talk about the episodes. Go make new friends. Go like, you know, share your dog pictures. Did you get married this week? Let us know.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, sometimes I'll go into the Discord and be like, okay, Mackenzie Shirley, bullshitting about pots. Right? People who know about pots. What do you got?

[Jillian Betavale]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

What am I gonna say?

[Jillian Betavale]

Totally. You can click the link in the show notes or you can just search us. You'll find us. It's really fun right there.

[Patrick Hines]

Have fun. So we meet Danny the detective, who I'm not thrilled with.

[Jillian Betavale]

Okay, I'm not thrilled with him either.

[Patrick Hines]

He tells us two doors were blocked and locked. One of them was blocked by a bed, and then the other one, like we just talked about, was blocked from the outside with a padlock.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Yeah.

[Jillian Betavale]

Both of them were supposed to die.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes, yes. And the third door where the fire was the most tents, was also blocked. So, like, it's impossible to get to.

[Jillian Betavale]

Right. And we learned that Patricia never made it out of her room. The official cause of death is smoke inhalation and carbon monoxide poisoning.

[Patrick Hines]

Awful.

[Jillian Betavale]

And they say, like, the house was a death trap for Patricia. And it's shocking that John Michael made it out.

[Patrick Hines]

And John Michael is here to, like, tell us about his childhood and his time with his mom. So he was an only child. He's a self described mama's boy. He loved Patricia Lee, worshiped the ground

[Jillian Betavale]

she walked on at six years old. He describes her as her best friend. I mean, and Jessica's saying she was

[Andrea Canning]

a big sister that I didn't have. I don't know how I would have gotten through a lot of what I did without her. Lee really was that person that would give the shoes off her feet, the clothes off her back. If she had a penny, the only penny to her name, she would give it to you. Like, she really was a genuine person with a heart of gold.

[Jillian Betavale]

She says if she had one penny left to her name, she's giving it to you if you need it.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And I love how John Michael, like, talks about the time they spent together. Like, his memories are lovely.

[Jillian Betavale]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

You know, everything from like playing outside and going to the park, even as simple things, tv. They did everything together. He was six. They were like buds, you know. And so Patricia Lee and Delbert met in church. He's originally from Arkansas. He claims he went to West Point Military Academy.

[Jillian Betavale]

Like five seconds looking at this guy, you're like Julie Murray. You are not.

[Patrick Hines]

You did not know. So they married in 1996 and John Michael was born in 1997.

[Jillian Betavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Now it's like hours after this deadly fire. Delbert goes to his sister in law, his wife's sister, Jessica's mom, Jessica, the cousin's.

[Jillian Betavale]

This is the craziest thing I have ever heard. Like, if my daughter is 12, if something happened to Steve, all I would ever. Daisy and I would sleep in bed in the same bed together until we both died. All you want to do is be like with your kid and shielding them from any other trauma that life could throw at them. Not this piece of Shit.

[Patrick Hines]

He wants to talk logistics.

[Jillian Betavale]

He goes over hours to the sister's house to be like. So Patricia and I literally just had a conversation about this the other day. And we decided that if anything happened to either one of us, then John Michael is going to come and live with you. Can you imagine if Delbert had died in the fire? Like, Patricia's gonna go and like that. This is insane.

[Patrick Hines]

And this is one of those situations where, like, John Michael is better off without this piece of shit.

[Jillian Betavale]

No question.

[Patrick Hines]

But it's very telling what a piece of shit he is because John Michael is taken in by this family. He feels loved. They love him. It was actually the best thing for him to be with people who would, like, let him feel things and experience

[Jillian Betavale]

the world for, like, the trauma of, like, your mother dying and then knowing that your dad never wanted you.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. He doesn't want to be a son. And to his son, who's going through something truly unimaginable, he doesn't even want to there for him.

[Jillian Betavale]

I can't imagine that. I really. I really can't imagine it. So the fire investigators finished their investigation. They concluded the fire started in the living room, where they found.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Now, okay, they found three kerosene lanterns in a pile near a coffee table. But the report described them as decorative only and not in use. The fire department does come to you with a conclusion that they're.

[Andrea Canning]

They couldn't determine a cause of the

[Jillian Betavale]

fire, but the report describes these kerosene lanterns as being decorative only.

[Patrick Hines]

So we're told that they're found in the living room. And I'm like, wait a second. The living room was, quote, the most intense part of the fire.

[Jillian Betavale]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And the house was locked from the outside.

[Jillian Betavale]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

So it's. All of these kerosene lamps are found where the fire was the most intense. This is arson and murder.

[Jillian Betavale]

But unless you're the fire investigators, for whom those kerosene lanterns are. What did they call them? Decorative only.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And so the official answer, I'm like, screaming, arson, yes. Of course the official answer is inconclusive.

[Jillian Betavale]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And I'm like, like, well, did anyone talk to them about the fricking padlock?

[Jillian Betavale]

Right. So the family knows that the investigators are wrong about these kerosene lamps, that they describe them as decorative. They're like, it was the only light source in this house. Now, listen, like, I didn't have a dad for very long, but when I did, he was very weird and very cheap. Even my fucking crazy dad would not have made us walk around the house with lanterns as our only life.

[John Michael]

So.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. We're told that Delbert insists. Insisted on them not using electricity to save money.

[Jillian Betavale]

And I'm sorry, I have to be that guy.

[Patrick Hines]

What?

[Jillian Betavale]

Insisted on them not using what?

[Patrick Hines]

The lamps?

[Jillian Betavale]

Yeah. But they weren't allowed to use electricity. Electricity. Okay. We're moving on.

[Patrick Hines]

Were they not.

[Jillian Betavale]

What's the right word I'm saying? I say electricity.

[Patrick Hines]

Electricity. How did I say it?

[Jillian Betavale]

I was just giving you. You said, like, with a Z. Like, electricity.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, I'm keeping that one.

[Jillian Betavale]

You can have it. I love it. I love how you talk. I just sometimes want to, like, slow down and enjoy it.

[Patrick Hines]

Is it electricity? Electricity?

[Jillian Betavale]

It's like when you were a little kid and you thought it was the Pulitzer Prize.

[Patrick Hines]

I thought it was the Pulitzer Prize.

[Jillian Betavale]

Cutest story ever told on this.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, I can't be alone in that. I can't be the only person who. When you're a kid and you hear it. When you hear it. Not read it.

[Jillian Betavale]

I'm with you.

[Patrick Hines]

Can't be the only one.

[Jillian Betavale]

Actually, Pulitzer Prize makes more sense than Pulitzer Prize, right?

[Patrick Hines]

Who the fuck is Pulitzer? I know who Pulitzer is.

[Jillian Betavale]

Pulitzer and Harrison. I know.

[Patrick Hines]

Of course, the only newsies.

[Jillian Betavale]

Surprise.

[Patrick Hines]

The way they're telling the story is not that, like, oh, no. They were lit in a world where, like, they didn't have the money for it. No. This guy was a dick. It was a power move. It was a control move. Literally. Weirdo. Probably Doomsday Prepper.

[Jillian Betavale]

I was thinking about that. We've talked about this movie, the m. Night Shyamalan1. The village or whatever. Like, they're living like the fucking Village.

[Patrick Hines]

He used these lanterns constantly.

[Andrea Canning]

Lee would have to make sure that dinner was cooked before sundown. Otherwise she would have to cook using a lantern. If you had to go to the bathroom, you had to grab a lantern. If there wasn't already one in there.

[John Michael]

There's probably 10, 14. I don't know how many.

[Narrator/Reporter]

There's a lot, which is unusual.

[John Michael]

Yeah. There's a lot of lanterns.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Yeah.

[Jillian Betavale]

Like, they would hang them on the walls to use as their light sources.

[John Michael]

No.

[Patrick Hines]

So, like, go to the bathroom. This. If you are like this, you are exhausting.

[Jillian Betavale]

And not only that, it is incredibly unsafe.

[Patrick Hines]

You have a child.

[Jillian Betavale]

Like, this is the most unsafe thing I've ever heard.

[Patrick Hines]

And it's. Yeah. And it's also abusive and weird.

[Jillian Betavale]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, there's. He's probably barking orders at them. And there were at least a dozen lanterns all over that house. Which is weird because the house is 500 square FE. My old apartment was 400 square feet.

[Jillian Betavale]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

There's not a lot of space.

[Jillian Betavale]

No. Also, don't take lanterns away from me. Give me a little bit, like a whimsical lantern to have up at the cabin house or whatever.

[Patrick Hines]

Don't ruin it. I'm sure that somewhere in this world there is a really nice Delbert who loves their lanterns and is doing this. All right. And who's nice to their kid if they have a kid.

[Jillian Betavale]

Yes. And I understand poverty. Like, do I ever understand poverty. But, like, if you can't afford electricity, the answer is not a house full of kerosene lamps.

[Patrick Hines]

When the word they use is insisted.

[Jillian Betavale]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

This guy's an abusive dick.

[Jillian Betavale]

He's a Delbert. We're calling him a Delbert. What? A Delbert.

[Patrick Hines]

So the report is like, hey, so we don't have any answers and we should close this case. And the family's like, I'm sorry, what?

[Jillian Betavale]

I feel like Even in the 10 years that we've done this, we've never seen this. Like, we don't really know it's case closed.

[Patrick Hines]

I feel like that was kind of Ellen Greenberg, I guess.

[Jillian Betavale]

Yeah. No, yeah. It's like they clearly just don't care about this family.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, Patricia Lee's family fudgeing does.

[Jillian Betavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So the case might be closed for them, but they're doing it.

[Jillian Betavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Betavale]

So now, just six weeks after the fire.

[Narrator/Reporter]

It was just six weeks after the fire, and Delbert was already engaged. There would soon be a new Mrs. Mills. Allison was Alison Newman, a divorced mom who shared custody of three young girls with her ex.

[Jillian Betavale]

Delbert is engaged to another woman.

[Patrick Hines]

John Michael, who's 6, is living with this wonderful family. Everyone is trying to, like, grapple with this horrible thing. Like, the six year old is in pain and he's suffering. His deadbeat father's not.

[Jillian Betavale]

No.

[Patrick Hines]

He's playing the field.

[Jillian Betavale]

So Alison Mills is this woman's name. Her friend Keisha is here to tell us how great she is. To which I say, keisha, read the room, girl.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm like, who is marrying this fudgeing loser?

[Jillian Betavale]

And who's coming on Dayline to be like, she was amazing, Keisha.

[Patrick Hines]

She was fine. Outgoing, compassionate, and easy to talk to. And I don't. I don't think so, because I'm going to meet her. I know. I'm wearing a Believe Women shirt today.

[Jillian Betavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Unfortunate timing because we're doing the last Trust Me episode today. The. The False Prophet. I accept. Alison. Every. Every rule has an Exception.

[Jillian Betavale]

Kendra.

[Patrick Hines]

Kendra.

[Jillian Betavale]

Two feet ones for Kendra.

[Patrick Hines]

All the shrillas I know.

[Jillian Betavale]

Ro.

[Patrick Hines]

Graham.

[Jillian Betavale]

Sorry, it's been a minute. We've gotten a deep.

[Patrick Hines]

The list goes on. But. So like I believe women. Unless they're Allison.

[Jillian Betavale]

Well, we learned that Allison had briefly dated Dilbert's brother and had once lived. I can't get over the name. Had once lived with Dilbert and Patricia before the fire. And John.

[Patrick Hines]

That could be a dick, but it's Dilbert.

[Jillian Betavale]

Is it?

[Patrick Hines]

It's Delbert. Is that Dilbert like the cartoon character for the comic?

[Jillian Betavale]

It's D E L. You're absolutely right.

[Patrick Hines]

It makes it worse. I'd rather Dilbert, for some reason that

[Jillian Betavale]

has a little bit more to say. Dilbert. I. I'll call this guy. I don't care. But it should be Dilbert.

[Patrick Hines]

Delbert. It's even more. It's like, no, that's a typo. The name's Dilbert.

[Jillian Betavale]

Somebody listening. Has a lovely uncle named Delbert and they are wonderful. We're not taking that away from you.

[Patrick Hines]

Collect lanterns.

[Jillian Betavale]

This Delbert is your uncle, in which case he can't have it.

[Patrick Hines]

There's a Delbert out there who's really, really kind and collects old lanterns.

[Jillian Betavale]

100%.

[Patrick Hines]

Unfortunately.

[Jillian Betavale]

But John Michael is saying that this Allison woman, like before the fire, before his mother died, this Allison was. Stayed with them for two or three months. Now remember, this house is 500 square feet.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Betavale]

Three adults and a kid in a house that size.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Allison came to stay with you?

[John Michael]

Yeah, she stayed with us probably two months. Three months.

[Narrator/Reporter]

There was no bed for her or bedroom.

[John Michael]

No, she had a mattress on the floor in my bedroom.

[Jillian Betavale]

She slept on a mattress on John Michael's floor.

[Patrick Hines]

Six year old with some like strange lady. And she's here because some boyfriend kicked her out. Not the father of her kids. Not Delbert's other guy.

[Jillian Betavale]

So you're to live on a mattress on John Michael's floor. One night, Patricia, the wife, wakes up in the middle of the night to find Delbert and Alison boinking on the

[Patrick Hines]

couch in the living room. She gets kicked out of that house too.

[Jillian Betavale]

But it's like a 500 square foot apartment. Like what? Like, like I feel like Allison was making the noises so they would get caught.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, there's a kid. It's just like you two suck this. I know Patricia Lee's house. There's a six year old there. Delbert, that's your wife and kids. Allison has. Have some fudgeing dignity and self respect.

[Jillian Betavale]

I know. I love that John Michael Is like, well, I got my room back.

[Patrick Hines]

Like. So the timeline is Alison moves in.

[Jillian Betavale]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Because she's been kicked out. She moves in, then she gets kicked out again, and four months later, Patricia Lee dies in a fire. And six weeks after that, Delbert and Allison are engaged.

[Jillian Betavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Interesting timing.

[Jillian Betavale]

Yeah. I love, too, that John Michael is looking at Andrea Canning. He goes, I was like, what the hell? Pardon my language.

[Patrick Hines]

I know John Michael.

[Jillian Betavale]

I know Andrea Canning is like, girl, this is a safe space. Like, this is whatever you want, want, girl. Gusto is back. Steve Tipton couldn't be happier.

[Patrick Hines]

He loves this so much.

[Jillian Betavale]

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[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, it's all in one remote, friendly, and incredibly easy to use. So you can pay, hire onboard, and support your team from anywhere.

[Jillian Betavale]

No, listen, this takes all of the guesswork out of all of the hard things about running payroll and doing all of that for your staff. We're talking automatic payroll tax files, filing, simple direct deposits, health benefits, computer benefits, workers comp, 401k, you name it. Gusto makes it simple and has options for nearly every budget.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, I know. Everyone's into, like, spring cleaning now, summer cleaning, just decluttering. That's kind of what Gusto feels like when you switch to it. You're like, oh, okay, great. Everything's organized in one place. All this admin chaos that's been piling up. It's over.

[Jillian Betavale]

And this is not on the copy, but this is what Steve talks about all the time. Their customer service is unbelievable. Not a question they can't answer. They get back to him right away. We actually have Gusto as a sponsor because he heard. Yes. He heard them on another podcast and was like, I love them so much. Let Jillian and Patrick scream about them for me.

[Patrick Hines]

And look at us now.

[Jillian Betavale]

Here we are. So, fam. Try gusto [e-mail] TCO and get three months free when you run your first payroll.

[Patrick Hines]

That's three months of free payroll at gusto.com/tco one more time.

[Jillian Betavale]

Gusto.com/tco.

[Patrick Hines]

You know, with Gusto.

[Narrator/Reporter]

I love it.

[Jillian Betavale]

It should be Slash Tipton.

[Patrick Hines]

Okay, so Delbert is seeing his son less and less. He's spending his wife's Patricia Lee, her insurance on things for himself and this new asshole, Allison, $15,000 policy.

[Jillian Betavale]

He buys himself a truck with it. I was like, can we get eyes on when that insurance policy was taken out?

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, again, don't need to be Colombo.

[Jillian Betavale]

Exactly. Exactly. And of course, Jessica like, the family is like, he's with this woman four months after my. After, like my aunt is dead. He unloaded the son on my family. Like, everyone is like, they killed her and the investigators.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Patricia Lee's family read the fire marshal's report and noted who had told the marshal those lanterns were decorative. Only Delbert himself.

[Andrea Canning]

He swore to them that they were just decoration. He didn't know how. They were all in a pile that they were never ever used.

[Narrator/Reporter]

The family knew that was a lie and suspected Delbert was trying to cover up something.

[Patrick Hines]

This asshole told investigators that and they're just taking his word for it.

[Jillian Betavale]

My note here, decorative. As though Delbert is walking around Home goods looking for things to beautify his space. Decorative.

[Patrick Hines]

No. Like, did anyone mention the freaking padlock?

[Jillian Betavale]

No, I know. We never talk about the padlock again. It never, never comes back up.

[Patrick Hines]

It's like these cops are so useless because it's like, oh, the light, the insurance is like going to a new car. He's married within six weeks. This, this woman. He was cheating on his wife with this woman. Yeah, the padlock, it's like, oh my

[Jillian Betavale]

God, wake up right there.

[Patrick Hines]

What does this guy have on you entire police department that you're not moving forward with this?

[Jillian Betavale]

And especially because Sharon, Jessica's sister, takes her suspicions to the cops. They take her statement. Nobody wants to reopen the case.

[Patrick Hines]

And it's not just suspicious. She's like, I'm telling you, he started the fire on purpose. You need to investigate him. And they're like, no. He says he was at work and we believe him.

[Jillian Betavale]

I know. Once again, Eric John is here to tell us, like, we got a little bit of like, what was Delbert like? And he's like, he was a fudgeing asshole.

[Patrick Hines]

He was a dick.

[Jillian Betavale]

Like, who is mean to their kids? Who's mean to their kids?

[Patrick Hines]

No, it's so ridiculous. And sister Sharon's like, I'm just going to do it my goddamn self.

[Jillian Betavale]

We learned by the way that he broke Patricia's nose and six year old John Michael had to be the one to call the cops.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, this poor kid had to grow up so quickly in the most horrifying ways. And cousin Jessica is like, let me tell you, Delbert was an abusive piece of shit. Physically, verbally, sexually, psychologically. This guy is a walking nightmare. Tell him.

[Jillian Betavale]

Trisha threatened to leave. And he says to the room, without

[Andrea Canning]

even a single second. Delbert spoke up and said the only way she'd be leaving is in a body bag.

[Jillian Betavale]

The only way she'll be leaving is in a body bag. Which is what happens.

[Patrick Hines]

All of these shitty memories that John Michael has. He's six years old and younger. Yes, it's horrifying.

[Jillian Betavale]

Horrifying.

[Patrick Hines]

So now two years later, after this deadly fire, the case is quote, closed. Sister Sharon is doing this her goddamn self. Doing her own full fledged investigation, talking to people, taking notes. And then one day, day Allison, this new wife, this woman with no self respect, calls sister Sharon. She's like, I got a story for you, girl. And sister Sharon's like, don't tell it to me, tell it to the cops.

[Jillian Betavale]

So she goes, and we see this deposition and in the interview she is saying that Delbert, the man that we like believe killed Patricia, said to her, she goes, he blurted out that if I were left him, he would do the same thing to me that he

[Patrick Hines]

did to Patricia and that he staged the whole fire. He left those kerosene lanterns all around. He left the house and left a lit cigarette nearby. And that was near the lanterns and an open wire. Like, what kind of house of what kind of house is this? You have a child, you have a six year old.

[Jillian Betavale]

He was trying to get rid of both of them. Both of them want either one of them.

[Patrick Hines]

The cops are like, okay, cool, so what we're going to do is we're going to wire you up and you need to get him to say all of that in a not suspicious manner so we can have him record it. Is that cool?

[Jillian Betavale]

They ask her that like a couple weeks later and by then like she's. They've made up, they're not in a fight anymore. She's like, no, no, no, he never actually said any of that. Don't worry about it.

[Patrick Hines]

On second thought.

[Jillian Betavale]

And the cops like, okay, like they just take Allison at her word and

[Patrick Hines]

they never questioned him or her. Or they're like, oh, well, than we don't have to reopen that horrible case.

[Jillian Betavale]

And the thing is, Danny the cop is like, look, we didn't question him because we only have one shot at this. And I understand that, but that would tell me then that you would be then like reinvesting. Like if you only have one shot, get your shot.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, I don't.

[Jillian Betavale]

This isn't it do the work to like to take the actual shot. But they don't.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, I don't buy that because Andrea Canning explicitly tells us that nothing is done with the lead and the case goes close. So I'm like, hey, Danny, you're just lying to me now.

[Jillian Betavale]

You're just lying. So, Danny, I thought we could trust you.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, I never thought of it.

[Jillian Betavale]

No, that's true. He's a cop.

[Patrick Hines]

You kidding? So seven years after the fire and the death of Patricia Lee, there is literally a new sheriff in town.

[Jillian Betavale]

Literally.

[Patrick Hines]

And his name is Mike Thompson.

[Jillian Betavale]

He's here. We're going to meet a bunch of Mike's in a minute.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And he's here and is assigned the case and meets with sister Sharon, who's been working on this for seven years.

[Jillian Betavale]

And it's funny because we're going to meet another investigator in a little while because, like, Mike really listens to Sharon to the point that Sharon is like, it's the first time I've ever been listened to. We're going to meet another investigator in a couple of years who also listens. And I'm like, what is it that these investigators.

[Andrea Canning]

Investigators.

[Jillian Betavale]

Are seeing in this story that the original investigators. Because this thing with Mike is that

[Narrator/Reporter]

Thompson suspected arson, but had his work cut out to prove it. No physical evidence had been collected from the fire scene. And by 2010, there was no scene.

[Patrick Hines]

When I got involved, this.

[John Michael]

This is basically what I had to work with. An empty lot, no house, no structure.

[Jillian Betavale]

He wants to investigate, but there's no crime scene.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Betavale]

Like, this is seven years after the fact. So, like, he goes to where the house was. The house has been demolished and removed. Mike feels like this is worth investigating. Another future investigator feels like this is worth investigating. But the cops at the time, who actually could have gone to the crime scene and actually collected evidence, didn't do it.

[Patrick Hines]

It makes you think, like, what did Delbert get away with? Like, all of this abuse.

[Jillian Betavale]

He know.

[Patrick Hines]

Did he know? What does he have on you?

[Jillian Betavale]

And like, Delbert does not strike me as the kind of guy with friends. You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

It's also not smart.

[Jillian Betavale]

No, exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

And like sister Sharon says, two senses, and they're all like, oh, it's arson.

[Jillian Betavale]

I am so t. That gay guy that killed those four guys. And like, like, was such an idiot. I'm so tired of covering murders that are so dumb and get away with it just due to, like, the ineptitude of everybody involved in getting the guy.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, lazy cops, corrupt cops, and then like, idiot criminals. The fucking Grinder Killer.

[Jillian Betavale]

That's what I was just talking about.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, yeah, no, I thought you meant the glitter ball thing because the cops let them get away with it, too.

[Jillian Betavale]

That they're killing people these days. It's pride.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, it's all the time yeah. So here's another shitty thing about Delbert. He was shocked that 6 year old John escaped. And it's not like, oh, my God, this is a miracle. Oh, my God, my son, please come over here.

[Jillian Betavale]

We're going through.

[Patrick Hines]

It was more like, wait, I don't get it, right? Like, how did he survive? Like that. That wasn't supposed to happen.

[Jillian Betavale]

Not only that, he says it to cousin Jessica, who, by the way, is now like the official big sister of him, because you dumped him on their family.

[Patrick Hines]

And thank God you did, because he's much better off.

[Jillian Betavale]

Thank God. But like, he is so, so sociopathic or whatever the word. Like, he's so out of his mind that he's literally saying to her, he

[Andrea Canning]

was telling me how he just didn't understand. And I said, you don't understand what? Like, how the fire started? And he said, no, I. I just. I don't understand how John got out. I put plexiglass so thick on those windows, and I cocked it up so much, a grown man couldn't have kicked those windows out.

[Jillian Betavale]

Like, girl, can you believe he got out after all the plexiglass I put up to keep him inside?

[Patrick Hines]

And he's like a little six year old. How did he climb up? I'm like, I don't know. His short to live and love for his mother and fear and adrenal.

[Jillian Betavale]

Like, I know he wanted to kill his own child.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, he's an asshole.

[Jillian Betavale]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

So Keisha's back, this new wife, Allison's friend, neighbor, babysitter, whoever the fuck. And she says, back in 2007, Keisha had, like, a really, really, really bad fight with Keisha with her husband.

[Jillian Betavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So Keisha is at Alison and Delbert's house looking for support because I guess they're married now.

[Jillian Betavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So Delbert's like, hey, you know what? If you want, I can totally start a fire and kill your hus. Make it look like an accident, just like I did with my wife. Are you down before? He's just like, I'm sorry, what?

[Jillian Betavale]

Keisha, why are you here? To tell Dateline but you didn't run screaming to the cops?

[Patrick Hines]

And also, Keisha, you're not the only person with a story like this, right?

[Jillian Betavale]

She's like, listen, like, he is a murderer. My friend Allison, though, is amazing.

[Patrick Hines]

And I'm like, maybe she. Maybe I misread the vibe, as they say. But, like, was Keisha trying to say, like, well, when I knew her, she was really nice, and now it turns out she's a Monster, I guess. And Dateline did her dirty with the edit.

[Jillian Betavale]

I mean, Canning wouldn't do that to us.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Oh, no.

[Jillian Betavale]

I don't know either.

[Patrick Hines]

Like Keisha is, not to be clear, not the only person with a story like this. Because now we meet Sherry, who's Alison's cousin through marriage and way back in 2007, around the same exact time that Keisha got this offer from Delbert. Sherry, the cousin was told, she told the cops that Delbert was bragging about the fire and giving everyone the horrifying details of how he pulled it off. And they still did not investigating him.

[Jillian Betavale]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian Betavale]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian Betavale]

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[Patrick Hines]

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It is. Yeah.

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[Jillian Betavale]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian Betavale]

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[Jillian Betavale]

so everyone's got the same story. So this is like, finally the new detective, Mike is gonna bring Delbert in for questioning.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, because now it's 2010 and shockingly, Alison and Delbert didn't make it as a couple.

[Jillian Betavale]

Right?

[Patrick Hines]

They are now divorced and Allison is like, do you remember that story I told you seven years ago? Guess what? It's actually true. He threatened to kill me. He told me all about the fire. And so finally, after seven years, they haul this asshole in.

[Jillian Betavale]

So Delbert is being crushed by the cops. We. We see it again. He got up at 6:30, there was no indication of a fire. He gets to work at 7 o'. CL. By 8:30, he gets the call that his house on fire. This is where in the deposition or the interview or whatever, he starts to

[Patrick Hines]

cry, pretends to cry.

[Jillian Betavale]

Mike right now is like, there are no tears.

[Patrick Hines]

No one's buying it.

[Jillian Betavale]

Like no. Absolute dry as a fucking bone.

[Patrick Hines]

He denies everything. Yes, he's broken up.

[Jillian Betavale]

I also love it when they deny it. Agree to take the polygraph and just fail.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, yeah. And Then that's just like good leverage. But the cops are like, hey, so here's what everyone is saying and everyone has the same story and you're running your mouth all over town and he's just denying everything.

[Jillian Betavale]

So. But then he changes the story to say that maybe he does know how the fire started, that maybe he left a lit. Maybe he left a lit cigarette burning by one of the kerosene lamps and the kerosene lamp fell over.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, that came out after he failed the poly. And he's like, oh, maybe I should start copying to something a little bit.

[Jillian Betavale]

Right? Because he, he's saying that.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Of particular interest to investigators where Delbert says the fire may have started the living room.

[John Michael]

In his statement, he pinpoints the actual origin of the point of fire, which is one of the few things we had that was useful from our fire investigation. He would not have known that.

[Jillian Betavale]

That was not public record.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Only the killer would know.

[John Michael]

Only the killer would know.

[Jillian Betavale]

Andrea Kenny's like, you mean only the killer would know?

[Patrick Hines]

And his story is one of those Scott Peterson stories that like even the lie makes him look like a dick. Because his story is that he left the house with a lit cigarette in the ashtray again. Then as he's leaving, his wife and child are sleeping. At 7 in the morning, he slams the door so hard that it like jostles the lamp of kerosene over and knocks it in into the lit cigarette. So now he's just saying everything that everyone is telling is now an accident in his story. And he's like, this is hard for me to say, but Dirty Dar, I think I started that fire.

[Jillian Betavale]

Cigarettes are so dangerous.

[Patrick Hines]

Who, like, what kind of dick are you to be slamming doors at 7am and leaving lit cigarettes and ashtrays next to a kerosene lamp? Like you're full of shit.

[Jillian Betavale]

Totally.

[Patrick Hines]

Even your lie makes you look like a fucking deadbeat.

[Jillian Betavale]

How are you going to be a person that has 12 kerosene lamps in your 500 square foot house and also smoking inside? It's been a minute since I've gone on a rant about smoking inside. But like with 12 kerosene lamps, that is an absolute death trap waiting to happen.

[Patrick Hines]

And secondhand smoke is a real thing. And when you're in close quarters like that, you're six year old, like you're just making him.

[Jillian Betavale]

Oh my God.

[Patrick Hines]

So it's eight now. Eight years after the fire, Dilbert Delbert is finally.

[Jillian Betavale]

Whatever you want to say, Delbert idiot. Some points in my note I did write Dilbert it is Delbert. But I did write Dilbert from time to time.

[Patrick Hines]

He's finally arrested for first degree murder. And, like, everyone's really emotional because this has been a long time coming. And more importantly, the family thinks that this Allison wife is involved.

[Andrea Canning]

Delbert wasn't smart enough for that. Allison was. Delbert wasn't. Delbert just acted it out.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Delbert didn't have much education.

[Andrea Canning]

No.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, Allison is probably the brains of the operation. I'm like, that's putting it very lightly. She's no genius either.

[Jillian Betavale]

No, because they say that Allison has to be like his own son. John Michael is like, Allison had to be involved because my dad. Dad is too stupid to think of the candle plan.

[Patrick Hines]

And like, I guess she or whatever, but like, I also don't think she's. She's one of the. Our brilliant minds either.

[Jillian Betavale]

No, because the whole idea was that, like, they lit the candle in a pool of kerosene so that it would take 20 minutes to burn down to give him time to get to work or whatever.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Betavale]

She takes a polygraph, she totally fails.

[Patrick Hines]

And, like, cousin Sherry is here to say, like, no, Alice, like, Delbert told me, Allison came up with a plan. All of this stuff, and like, Delbert so thrilled at how it came together. But none of these stories are going to hold up in court because it's all hearsay.

[Jillian Betavale]

And that's the thing. Like, these two people are both so stupid and they're so evil, but they've gotten away with this murder for a decade. Yeah. Can you imagine being that dumb and getting away with it?

[Patrick Hines]

Well, then, yeah, because he's running his mouth. And that's like, the cops didn't do the work.

[Jillian Betavale]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

Our cousin Sharon did it, and then just him running his mouth. And now we have all these corroborating witnesses.

[Jillian Betavale]

I mean, it's like the whole thing is that, like, Sherry was never charged in this crime, even though every single person involved in the story knows that she was involved in it.

[Patrick Hines]

So it's 20, 2013. This asshole's on trial. He waives his right to a jury, three days of testimony, the judge finds him guilty and throws him in prison for the rest of his life.

[Jillian Betavale]

Can I just say, I know that, like, years ago, I'm on record saying that a bench trial is the way to go. He's like, juries, like, you can't. You just never know. Like, the judge knows the law.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Betavale]

Especially when you're Delbert and you know that you did it. Why are you choosing the bench trial?

[Patrick Hines]

Idiot.

[Jillian Betavale]

The idiot.

[Patrick Hines]

And when I tell you this episode is just getting started. We're only 39 minutes into the dateline.

[Jillian Betavale]

I know, I know.

[Patrick Hines]

By 2020, Delbert has been in prison for seven years.

[Narrator/Reporter]

James Turrentine's phone pinged with a new message. He didn't recognize the number, but when he opened it, the name rang a bell.

[John Michael]

It was something along the lines of, hey, this is Allison. I don't know if you remember me.

[Narrator/Reporter]

It was Alison Mills, Delbert's ex wife.

[John Michael]

She was my first real girlfriend.

[Narrator/Reporter]

James dated Allison when they were in high school.

[Patrick Hines]

Allison, out of the clear blue sky, starts reaching out to him.

[Jillian Betavale]

I got a really. We were texting about this offline. This guy's name is J Turn Tyne. And we. They take way too long to get to this.

[Patrick Hines]

And they do get to it. And Andrea Canning calls him on it,

[Jillian Betavale]

but they do get to it. And Andrea Canning, who I love, does call him on it, but she doesn't say the word. And it makes me mad.

[Patrick Hines]

This guy, he will downplay it later. We will get into it, but I just want to know. And I'll tell you something about his shirt, too, if you watch this episode. Yeah. So when this guy was 27 years old, he was convicted of indecency with a child. By contact, the child was 11 years old. James is a registered sex offender. He will be on that list for the rest of his life. That is not standard. No, tries to act like it's. It depends on the severity of the offense. So I was on the Texas public sex offender website today, which sucked, by the way. Do not recommend. I know, but this guy, all of his pictures are there. So you can see, you can confirm it's him, but he has to check in and have his photo taken every single year and have his information verified, like his address verified annually. He's going to try to downplay it, like it was a big misunderstanding. You don't have to do that when it was nothing. This child was a living 11 years old.

[Jillian Betavale]

I just want to say, like to Dateline and to Andrea Canning, I don't know if it was worth it. I don't know if telling this story was worth it if we had to use this guy to get there.

[Patrick Hines]

And to that point, James is wearing a shirt with words and imagery that are known for being dog whistles for white Christian nationalism and white supremacy. So either Dayline didn't know that or they allowed him to wear this on their platform. I don't think Dateline would say, cool, you can wear that shirt.

[Jillian Betavale]

But I would be surprised that Dayline would be like, we're going to have this sex offender look like a hero in our episode.

[Patrick Hines]

I'd vet him a little bit more. This shirt definitely looks like something you should look up when you see this guy, when you hear what he does, when you hear, like, the politics that he and Allison are involved in, I would just have looked it up. So I clocked it immediately. I was like, I fucking. That's crazy.

[Jillian Betavale]

It's a very weird choice, Dateline. But to get back to the story.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Just wanted to put that out there. So James is here to talk about how he dated Allison in high school. And then in 2020, after Delbert's been in prison for seven years, she's, like, randomly reaching out to him. I don't really fully believe his version of the story. E either.

[Jillian Betavale]

Yeah, Canning is like, what did he want? And, like, basically he's like, she just wanted to spend a lot of time, like, discussing our lives, like, where we've been. And basically, she's just, like, trying to paint her life as, like, she's, like, in this really good place now.

[Patrick Hines]

But she also tells James, like, I've been married several times. One of my exes actually killed his wife. So that's kind of crazy.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Andrew, what kind of questions did you have when she told you that her husband had been convicted of murder?

[John Michael]

I thought it best not to ask a lot of questions. It seemed more appropriate to me at the time time to express sympathy.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Did she tell you what had happened?

[John Michael]

She said that he locked her in the house and set the house on fire. That was the extent of it.

[Jillian Betavale]

Nothing. I didn't think asking questions was important. James.

[Patrick Hines]

James, like, this is not. You're not being fully honest. No. So in 2022, since the murder, Allison has, like, made some changes. She left Texas. She's now in central Illinois. She's now Alison Salinas, married to husband number four or five named Patrick.

[Jillian Betavale]

Oh, we'll meet him eventually.

[Patrick Hines]

And so, like, what is Alison up to lately? She's amazing. Thanks for asking. She's an entrepreneur. Entrepreneur, AKA selling things online.

[Jillian Betavale]

I mean, she, like, hosts a political podcast. She's a Republican. She was running for Senate.

[Patrick Hines]

Her podcast is called Citizen Watch. If you'd like to lose a few brain cells, it's on YouTube. She has 38 videos from five years ago, all with about 12 views each.

[Jillian Betavale]

Stop it. She really wanted to change things in the country. She's holding rallies to humanize the cops.

[Patrick Hines]

She's just. She's Just. She's just. It was a bad shirt. Me. It was a bad shirt. I believe women shirt for this episode. It was a bad sh. Got to say.

[Jillian Betavale]

But you know what? Like, that's one in a million. You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

But I'm just. It's like, really unfortunate that we're ripping her to shreds.

[Jillian Betavale]

It's a cute on you, though.

[Patrick Hines]

Thanks. It'll make more sense for Trust me, episode four.

[Jillian Betavale]

That's true. That's true. I want to point out she never gets on the ballot. Thank God.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, why?

[Jillian Betavale]

Well, she dropped out citing a cancer diagnosis. 5, 6, 7, 8. Here we Fudgeing go with the fake cancer shit again.

[Patrick Hines]

So she's a scammer across the board. She's burned a lot of people.

[Jillian Betavale]

She literally asked James for money. She's like, girl, I have cancer. I can't afford the treatment. Can you Venmo me? And he's like, no, James.

[Patrick Hines]

But also, how desperate are you for attention that you're not just saying like, well, it was nice talking to you and catching up after all these years. Enjoy your amazing life wherever you are with husband number eight or whatever. Hopefully he won't kill you.

[Jillian Betavale]

James seems bored. He goes down like a rabbit hole of Alison. He finds Facebook pages where, quote, people complained about her by the hundreds.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, I'm just not going to feel sympathy for a child molester and a Nazi. No, like, James, fudge you, man.

[Jillian Betavale]

You know, we get Kate Elliott now. I love her. She's one of the women on met Allison at church, and boy, does she have a story to tell. They were volunteering to organize a community fundraiser. Allison, the new girl in town, decides she's gonna come into town and she wants to. She wants to create the East Bluff Jamboree, which is a concert.

[Narrator/Reporter]

She came in and said that she had connections and she was gonna have Nellie, Brad Paisley, and Gwen Stefani come to our little 250 seat amphitheater. She started good googling the artists and saw they were booked to be in other places the day of the fundraiser.

[Patrick Hines]

So Kate's like, sure, Jan. So whenever Kate would press her on anything or catch her in a lie, Alison would never skip a beat. She's like, oh, my God, that's unacceptable. Let me get Gwenny's PR people on the phone.

[Jillian Betavale]

Cause she Googles like. She literally is like, googles the artist and sees that they're booked to be in other places, like during the date of the scheduled jamboree.

[Patrick Hines]

So eventually Kate's like, prove it. Show me Your phone with these texts and emails. Alison's like, will you excuse me real quick? I just have to use the rest of it.

[Jillian Betavale]

Gotta pee.

[Patrick Hines]

Kate never sees her again. No receivers out the door.

[Jillian Betavale]

And this is where we learned that Kate has a degree in criminology. And I was like, loving Kate. Love it. Like, don't fuck with the local organizers. They all have degrees in criminology.

[Patrick Hines]

So when Kate starts investigating Alison and then she starts warning people about Alison, and everyone has the same story. Like, she would get involved in some event, a church, charity, or a fundraiser for first responders.

[Jillian Betavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Promise the world she wouldn't deliver, and she'd take the money and run. Or she'd hire people and then not pay them.

[Jillian Betavale]

Well, I got it. We got to talk about this one gala she was going to host because Patty Green, the director of the venue, is here. And I just want to talk about it for two seconds because we were told that it was going to be, like, this beautiful gala, like, celebrate the first responders. We see the room. It is literally, like, fake. Walled off, like half of a hotel conference room.

[Patrick Hines]

Crispy streamers.

[Jillian Betavale]

Crispy. And it's done up in, like, the super extreme, fancy way that Allison was going to do it. It is the tackiest bullshit. It's all red, white, and blue. I mean, it looks like it's plastic silverware. And, like, this was $125 a plate.

[Narrator/Reporter]

But a few days before the event, Patty says she started getting calls from concerned guests. What were they asking?

[Patrick Hines]

They were saying, is this event really happening?

[Jillian Betavale]

Because, you know, we're not getting any information from her.

[Patrick Hines]

She's not returning our phone calls.

[Narrator/Reporter]

And are you trying to reach out to her again?

[Jillian Betavale]

Oh, yes.

[Patrick Hines]

So then she just.

[Narrator/Reporter]

She wouldn't answer my phone calls.

[Patrick Hines]

She wouldn't answer my emails.

[Narrator/Reporter]

So she's Ghosting you?

[Jillian Betavale]

Yeah, 100% ghosted at that point.

[Narrator/Reporter]

And there's big event that is supposed to happen.

[Jillian Betavale]

Absolutely, girl. Like, we paid our ticket. We are getting no info. Like, is this event ever happening? Never happened.

[Patrick Hines]

The thing is, if that event was legit, I would go and cheese. Cheese up the shit out of it and have a grand old time and give money to these amazing people. But because it's fake and because she's trying to act like she's this polished, like, amazing person, it looks way cheesier.

[Jillian Betavale]

I'm sure it looks really cheesy. Like, it's a windowless half of a, like, partitioned. Yeah. And it was like, the fancy fundraiser.

[Patrick Hines]

But if it's like, oh, these People are doing the best they can gathering people together to do a good thing. I'd be there at a heartbeat.

[Jillian Betavale]

Totally.

[Patrick Hines]

But she's an asshole.

[Jillian Betavale]

And also, I'm also, like, based on her political leanings, I would not be attending any fundraiser run by this woman.

[Patrick Hines]

No, James, you guys believed in the same shit 100.

[Jillian Betavale]

And like, Kate, who I love, you

[Patrick Hines]

are white Christian nationalists. You were fudgeing Nazis.

[Jillian Betavale]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Give me a break.

[Jillian Betavale]

Yes. Yes, yes.

[Patrick Hines]

But that's why they got along, because they were spewing their shit in their own little echo chamber on Facebook messages about how much they hated everybody. Please.

[Jillian Betavale]

Yes, girl. Miracle made us back. Look, these are those sheets that help you sleep at the perfect temperature. I was sick last week. I was in bed for two straight days. I could not have done it without my Miracle made sheets.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, we know that sleep at the perfect temperature is kind of make or break.

[Jillian Betavale]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

I was sick of waking up sweaty or freezing and then hot and you don't know what's going on. And so now these Miracle made sheets are crafted with NASA inspired silver infused fabric that helps regulate your body temperature

[Jillian Betavale]

and they stay clean longer, fam. Thanks to their antibacterial silver technology, Miracle made sheets stay cleaner and fresher up to three times longer than regular sheets.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, Fewer odors, fewer wash cycles, way less laundry. And also all that, like hidden bacteria in regular sheets. No. It can clog your pores, cause breakouts. So we're not doing that anymore. So Miracle Maid's antibacterial design helps you sleep cleaner and clearer night after night.

[Jillian Betavale]

I've been sleeping on these sheets for years and years, fam. And you can upgrade your sleep or give the gift a better rest.

[Patrick Hines]

Go to try Miracle.com TCO to try Miracle made sheets.

[Jillian Betavale]

Today you'll save over 40%. And when you use promo code TCO, you'll get an extra 20% off plus a free three piece towel set.

[Patrick Hines]

They make an amazing gift and with a 30 day money back guarantee, there's no risk.

[Jillian Betavale]

That's try Miracle.com TCO code TCO at checkout.

[Patrick Hines]

Thanks to Miracle Made for sponsoring this episode.

[Jillian Betavale]

Thanks, Miracle.

[Patrick Hines]

And my sleep. Also Tiffany, as in I think we're alone now. Tiffany. Yes, she's involved because of course the cancer's fake, right? And she'd use it to get people from. Get things from people or celebrities.

[Jillian Betavale]

And like Tiffany just out there doing the best she can. My favorite thing of 2025 was learning that Tiffany and Debbie Gibson are really good friends and they tour together.

[Patrick Hines]

Right?

[Jillian Betavale]

I Love this so much. Who opens for who. It's very dicey. Nobody knows.

[Patrick Hines]

They should switch off back and forth.

[Jillian Betavale]

Like when Alanis and Tori went on. Yes. Yeah, yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Also NSync and Backstreet Boys. Oh, I'm waiting. I will be there.

[Jillian Betavale]

Is that. Is this happening?

[Patrick Hines]

It's been teased a lot online, like Lance and A.J.

[Jillian Betavale]

and I mean, nobody needs it more than Lance Bass, if we're being honest.

[Patrick Hines]

I think they should do it. I would go. I would be there dancing my ass off. I saw them on the no Strings Attached tour. JC looked at me, at Ashley.

[Jillian Betavale]

Oh, my God.

[Patrick Hines]

He did. During this. I promise you. I'm a JC girl through and through, but. And like the whole thing used to be like, well, Justin won't do it. We don't want Justin there.

[Jillian Betavale]

Yeah.

[Andrea Canning]

Bye.

[Patrick Hines]

J.C. carried.

[Jillian Betavale]

Yes. Oh, my God.

[Patrick Hines]

With the voice.

[Jillian Betavale]

While we're here, I just got my third row tickets to the Chicks at the Beacon Theater. That's all. That's the third row. I was. I stayed up like all night waiting for. My God, for my promo code or whatever. You got third row.

[Patrick Hines]

That's fantastic.

[Jillian Betavale]

And it's the non.

[Patrick Hines]

Congratulations. I really mean that.

[Jillian Betavale]

Thank you so much. I'm very excited.

[Patrick Hines]

That's so exciting. Anyway, NSync, Backstreet Boys, like, JC, let's make this happen.

[Jillian Betavale]

This picture of Tiffany, like Bamboozled Tiffany. Like, Tiffany's been through enough. She's only famous because she got divorced from her parents, but when she was 13. And now we're scamming her from like behind the scenes photos. And we see her and.

[Patrick Hines]

Because she was a wonderful performer.

[Jillian Betavale]

Wonderful. No question.

[Patrick Hines]

Let's not.

[Jillian Betavale]

Not trying to take that away from her.

[Patrick Hines]

No.

[Jillian Betavale]

Or from any of us.

[Patrick Hines]

She also, this asshole Allison had this shitty bakery that's a hotbed for legal issues.

[Jillian Betavale]

Kate has a real issue with this bakery. It was dead in the water before she opened.

[Narrator/Reporter]

So you think she wasn't. They weren't even making 90% of things.

[John Michael]

No.

[Narrator/Reporter]

And the ones that she did make, you can tell she made them.

[Jillian Betavale]

It looks like a three year old helped. And the things she did make, you could tell they look like a three year old helped. Like she's like in her home oven, like baking cupcakes. Like, that I would make.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And also now then she's like being sued by everyone and then she's going on the news to yell about it slash defend herself.

[Jillian Betavale]

I know.

[John Michael]

And.

[Jillian Betavale]

And she sounds insane.

[Patrick Hines]

She's a mess. She's a fucking Nazi.

[Jillian Betavale]

I told him.

[Patrick Hines]

I figured out She's a Nazi.

[Jillian Betavale]

She's a. Oh.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, God, they suck. So, like, categorically they suck.

[Jillian Betavale]

Yeah. Shouldn't have anything.

[Patrick Hines]

So she has some convictions. One theft by deception in Illinois.

[Jillian Betavale]

I love it.

[Patrick Hines]

A few theft and forgery in Texas. Like, you know, she's whatever. But criminology Kate has built a timeline to try.

[Jillian Betavale]

I need her, like, nameplate on her desk. Criminology Kate.

[Patrick Hines]

And we're spelling criminology with a C and Kate with a K. We're not doing both with a K. No. Why? Because that's like, corny. But you can if you want. But in my notes, I spelled it right.

[Jillian Betavale]

Okay, great. I'm still at Dilbert Delbert. Nobody knows.

[Patrick Hines]

Because it would. I wouldn't be able to myself if I did.

[Jillian Betavale]

Like, that's true.

[Patrick Hines]

And it's like, too close to kkk. We already have two.

[Jillian Betavale]

Oh, my.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm like, I'm not doing it.

[Jillian Betavale]

Okay.

[Patrick Hines]

And because remember, Alison is vocal about the fire and Patricia Lee's death. Like, she's telling everyone that her ex husband killed his wife and how he did it.

[Jillian Betavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So James the Nazi is like, well, I know Alison is a con artist, but he doesn't cut her off because he, quote, wants to learn more about her scams. And I'm like this. What are you two in on together?

[Jillian Betavale]

I will just say though, like, James the Nazi does do some good work here because what he decides to do, start recording the calls.

[Patrick Hines]

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

[Jillian Betavale]

I mean, right, right, exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

But remember, Allison is married to this guy named Patrick.

[Narrator/Reporter]

James says Allison texted and called him relentlessly for months. You say she love bombed you?

[John Michael]

Yes.

[Narrator/Reporter]

How so?

[John Michael]

That I was the gold standard? That I was the one. She painted a very romantic picture.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Allison also texted selfies to James. Regular selfies. Any suggestive pictures. Trying to win you over.

[John Michael]

She did, in fact, send me nudes, if that's what you're asking.

[Jillian Betavale]

Sending him nudes, which woof. But also, like, these recorded calls that James is getting is her being like, so, can you kill my husband?

[Patrick Hines]

And James is like, we talked about this a lot. Like, a lot, a lot, a lot.

[Jillian Betavale]

Right? So it's when he goes to the cops with this and the cops don't take him seriously. That's when he decides to start recording the calls.

[Patrick Hines]

So James is like, finally, after 10 times asking, he's like, no, I'm not going to kill him. And so Alice and allegedly is like, well, fine. Can you find someone who will, baby?

[Jillian Betavale]

And by like, she's Giving him, like, the ways to do it. This guy's got a severe shellfish allergy. And she's like, but that won't work. You can't just forward feed him oysters because that there's like, it gives him too. Like, he would die too slowly, and it would give him time to get help. It can't be that.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm like, my God. So the big plan also, like, this is the second time that someone has had to take matters into their own hands because the cops aren't doing anything.

[Jillian Betavale]

Yeah. But also the thing with Alex and a she, like, not only does she want him to hire the guy to do it, she wants him to pay for it. She's coaching him on how to take money out of the ATM.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Betavale]

So as not to be suspicious.

[Patrick Hines]

20 bucks here, 40 bucks here.

[Jillian Betavale]

His own money. She's like. And then suddenly you've got the $5,000 you need to pay the guy to kill my husband.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Because the big plan is to lure the husband out to a remote location, and then the hitman can kill him there. Like, you're a genius.

[John Michael]

Right?

[Jillian Betavale]

She's on tape. The only thing that's going to suck is I have to go through the whole morning process and all the whole crying and.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Betavale]

The whole widow process, complaining about how she's gonna have to, like, play the grieving widow and how much that's gonna

[Patrick Hines]

suck, she calls it. You know, she has to go through, quote, the whole widow process. Like, this bitch.

[Jillian Betavale]

This woman does not have a soul.

[Patrick Hines]

No. And now we're back with John Michael. Remember, he was six years old when this horrifying thing happened. He lost his mom in this incredibly tragic, traumatizing way. And he says, like, look, his life has not been easy. He turned to substance abuse. Who can blame him? Of course not one of us. I do the same.

[Jillian Betavale]

Of course.

[Patrick Hines]

So his mother died in this tragic way. He was also in that fire, which is its own layer of trauma. Like him dealing with the fact that he was in that scary situation too. His father's an absolute piece of shit. Like, this poor guy. But he's in recovery. He's married, he's got two kids, an

[Jillian Betavale]

amazing wife who gets him and helps him deal.

[Patrick Hines]

So he's really doing it. And I love that they let us know that we'll end with him. Thank God. But I just love his honesty of this has been terrible for me. And thank God I have this partner who loves me, and I have these two amazing daughters, and I actually give a shit about them.

[Jillian Betavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Funny how that works.

[Jillian Betavale]

So we're back with Kate and James now. They think with all of the recordings they have, that they've got enough to make an arrest. The cops do not agree. So Kate and James post all of the recordings of Alison, like, multiple, begging him to kill the husband or hire somebody to kill the husband. They also create this, like, AI video linking Allison to the murder of Patricia, like, all those 10 years ago.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Betavale]

36 hours, the cops are calling James.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, Detective Palmer reaches out and she cannot believe the ball was dropped on this. She's like, oh, my God. Like, I gotta. I gotta get to work.

[Jillian Betavale]

And once again, like, where were the cops, like, originally? Like, why does, like, Detective Palmer. Why does she give us it? Why does she see that there's.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, because they put it online and tagged the cops. And tagged the cops. And so now everyone was tagging the cops, and then they got all of this bad attention, and that was a little uncomfortable. So now everyone's gonna show up to work today.

[Jillian Betavale]

Yes. And so within days, like, the detectives are doing deep dives into Alison. They're listening to all the recordings. They're reading up on the murder of Patricia Lee.

[Patrick Hines]

And so now it's July 2025, and Allison is finally being questioned for her

[Jillian Betavale]

role in all by Detective Palmer. And we see it, and she's doing

[Patrick Hines]

that thing where she's, like, downplaying everything. She's barely awake in this interview. I don't understand the words she's trying to say. It's total word salad.

[Jillian Betavale]

And it's that what she's saying is I'm not oblivious to what could have

[Narrator/Reporter]

happened, and I'm really glad it didn't. I don't want harm to come to

[Andrea Canning]

anybody, and I really don't.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Like, words were coming out of my

[Jillian Betavale]

mouth, and it was just words. And she's like, I know it sounds bad, but I didn't mean it. I really love my husband. I didn't mean any of it.

[Patrick Hines]

I know it. She goes, yeah, sure. Okay, fine. It looks like I'm trying to hire hitman. I'm just saying words.

[Jillian Betavale]

But you know what? Detective Palmer is like, fudge that we're arresting you anyway, because good to know. Family, even just having these conversations is a fudgeing crime.

[Patrick Hines]

Watching her get arrested is wild because Detective Palmer just kind of gets up like she's not going to arrest her.

[Jillian Betavale]

Pulls the handcuffs out slow.

[Patrick Hines]

Gets up like she's trying to, like, look for a pen.

[Jillian Betavale]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And then she just like. And outcome the handcuffs And I'm like, oh, yeah?

[John Michael]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So Alison's first call is to her husband Patrick, the man she wanted dead.

[Jillian Betavale]

And Patrick is thrilled to get the call.

[Patrick Hines]

He's here with us, defending her.

[Jillian Betavale]

This poor, stupid son of a bitch. Like, he's here to say, she's my ride or die. I love her more than anything else. His response to the phone calls are. Cuz the. Andrea Canning is like. But on the phone calls, on the multiple, multiple phone calls, she's talking about your shellfish allergy. She's talking about all the different ways to kill you. He's saying, no, no, no, no, no. Nobody knows the way that I do to him.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Allison was a victim of James.

[Jillian Betavale]

He was selectively talking to her and trying to manipulate her and get in her head. He got in her head to the point to where she started talking about this stuff. She was a victim of James. James initiated all of that. She didn't do it. And I'm like, bitch, we've heard the phone calls. We hear her coming up with all of this stuff. And he's convinced that she was manipulated by James. But he's never gonna listen to the calls. He'll never listen to them.

[Patrick Hines]

And Andrea Cannon kind of can't believe what she's hearing, obviously. She keeps trying to get him to see the facts, and he just keeps saying, well, no one knows Alison like I do. And I'm like, well, you don't know her that well because you're refusing to listen to the audio and see the truth.

[Jillian Betavale]

And I'm like, you in danger, girl. Like, she could flip back on you any day.

[Patrick Hines]

She is using you.

[Jillian Betavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

To this day, she is using you. And you look like an idiot. And I urge you to run away.

[Jillian Betavale]

Really? Like, you look so dumb, sir.

[Patrick Hines]

But now we have to hear what Allison has to say because she sits down with Andrea Canning.

[Jillian Betavale]

Oh, my God. The last 10 minutes of this thing just goes on and on and on.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, she didn't mean it. Her husband, she calls him her babe, her soulmate. And now this is James versus Alison. Alison versus James now. Because now these two are going to say the same things about each other.

[Jillian Betavale]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

So he was love bombing. She was love bombing. He manipulated. She manipulated.

[Jillian Betavale]

They had sex. They didn't have sex.

[Patrick Hines]

Back and forth thing. Allison's like, no, we totally had sex in that shitty motel and it was awesome.

[Jillian Betavale]

Oh, my God.

[Patrick Hines]

Andrea Canning confronts Alison about the murder of Patricia Lee and her relationship with this asshole Delbert. Alison denies everything, and she brushes it off in this really irritating Way where Andrea Canning did her research, does her work, is presenting a fact that she cannot argue. And she's like, that's a lie.

[Narrator/Reporter]

That's a bold faced lie.

[Jillian Betavale]

Wow.

[John Michael]

Okay.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Just because it looks bad doesn't mean that that's the whole story.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, yeah, see, that's just not true. And I'm like, oh, Alison, I hate you.

[Jillian Betavale]

Right? No, she's like, I'm a pawn in everybody else's game here.

[Patrick Hines]

And she's like, but don't you see the similarities? Because you asked James to kill your husband, did you maybe ask Delbert to kill Patricia? Like, it's not this, like, giant leap I'm making says Andrea Canning.

[Jillian Betavale]

No, but it, like, doesn't go anywhere because it can'. And now, now Andrea is confronting James about being a convicted sex offender.

[Patrick Hines]

Because Alison is like, well, you can't believe anything he says. You know, he's a convicted sex offender. Right.

[Jillian Betavale]

And I'm kind of on Allison's side. Like, if it weren't for the tapes, like, we heard the tape. So we don't, like, it's not. We're not believing what he said. We're believing what you said. You idiot.

[Patrick Hines]

You fucking idiot. You know, this is when James downplays it. He does that thing where he was like, it was 20 years ago. So he tries to do distance like the guy from 7th Heaven did.

[Jillian Betavale]

And. Exactly. And he's saying that, like, people can grow and change. And I'm like, bitch, what about your 11 year old fucking victim? It's not up to you. I don't care if you grew and change.

[Patrick Hines]

You have. You're on the sex federal list for the rest of your life. You have to check in every year. That is not standard. He's talking about peeing outside.

[Jillian Betavale]

No, right, exactly. He's talking about how, like, it was 20 years ago and he's been like, doing the world a solid ever since. And I'm like, I'm sorry, this is not one of those grow and change things.

[Patrick Hines]

No, he's all better now.

[Jillian Betavale]

He says it doesn't matter if you are or not. What about the 11 year old?

[Patrick Hines]

What about that shirt, James? I don't.

[Jillian Betavale]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

So Alison is serving a 16 year prison term. She took a plea deal. And as if this episode cannot get any worse for Andrea Canning, she sits down with Delbert, of all people.

[Jillian Betavale]

It's. And like, oh, my God. So I didn't watch it all the way through last night when I was like, pre watching it from my notes. I did not watch, like, the last four minutes. And the last four minutes is where everything happens.

[Patrick Hines]

And poor Andrea Canning is like, I dealt with Alison. I know, fucking sex offender Nazi. This part like this poor like kid John Michael who's gone through it. And now Gilbert, Andrea Canning is flying

[Jillian Betavale]

all over the country to interview the world's worst people.

[Patrick Hines]

Like the trashiest, most disgusting people.

[Jillian Betavale]

Like that afternoon she had to meet with Patrick, like girl, like so.

[Patrick Hines]

So Delbert's serving a life sentence for the murder of Patricia Lee. And he's like, I didn't do it. And neither did Allison. And when things can't get any worse, it's worse with Delbert. But now they take a turn for the absolute worst.

[Jillian Betavale]

From what I was told by a

[John Michael]

six year old boy, and I swore

[Patrick Hines]

to him in the back of the

[Jillian Betavale]

ambulance that day, I'd never tell another living soul. But I'm gonna tell you. He said he set the couch on

[Patrick Hines]

fireplace with a ladder at the end

[Jillian Betavale]

of it, which probably in turn set the curtains on fire, set the wall on fire that burnt, that killed his mother.

[Narrator/Reporter]

So now you're blaming your son?

[Patrick Hines]

No, I'm not blaming my son. I'm telling you what my son told me when he was 6 years old

[John Michael]

in the back of an ambulance.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Okay, well it sounds like you're blaming your son.

[Patrick Hines]

This piece of shit blames his 6 year old son for the death of Patricia Lee.

[Jillian Betavale]

And he says, I was gonna take it to the grave. I told, I promised my son in that moment I would never tell anybody. And Andrea's like, then bitch, why are you telling me?

[Patrick Hines]

She's like, you know, when people hear this, they're gonna think you're despicable because we have countless witnesses who all have the same story. Plus you can yourself are running your mouth all around town about this.

[Jillian Betavale]

Admitted to killing your wife to everybody you've ever met.

[Patrick Hines]

And he goes, I'm going to Andrea, I'm going to defend, defend my son till the day I die. And this is when she has fucking had it. She goes, you know, your son has been through hell. Now you're saying this and you're acting like you're trying to be a good father. You are not. This is so unfair. This is really awful. I'm going to tell you this right now. And she goes, you're not going to win father of the year anytime soon.

[Jillian Betavale]

Andrea Canning was like up and out of her seat as much as she could, as much as she. That Mike is holding her back as Lester Holt.

[Patrick Hines]

Anyone off her leash, he runs a tight Ship over there.

[Jillian Betavale]

Canning was ready to punch this guy in a gun.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, you would punch him if he didn't keep his. If he kept his mouth shut. He had a very punchable face. He murdered his wife in the worst way possible. He was surprised his son survived. His son was supposed to die, too. And then he starts blaming, blaming.

[Jillian Betavale]

And then this. I hated. They take a laptop and show John Michael what his dad had said. John Michael gets three seconds into it, slams the laptop shut, gets up and walks. I was like, good for you.

[Patrick Hines]

Good for him. And then this asshole Delper starts talking about how John Michael should be hypnotized so we can really learn the truth. Andrea Cannon goes, this is a bunch of bull crap. She's slamming her laptop. She's getting the hell out of there.

[Jillian Betavale]

She's out.

[Patrick Hines]

And so it ends with John Michael, who's doing his goddamn best. He's healing the best he can. He has a wonderful wife.

[Narrator/Reporter]

These days, John Michael dedicates himself to his role as husband and father and holds tight the memory of his best friend, the mother he lost so many years ago.

[John Michael]

She was the first person to show me what love was. I mean, she might not be here physically, but she's. She's here in my mind. She's here in my heart.

[Patrick Hines]

He says he carries his mother in his mind and in his heart. And he's just like, I'm rooting for John Michael out of this whole thing.

[Jillian Betavale]

I know. Me too.

[Patrick Hines]

Love you, girl.

[Jillian Betavale]

Oh, my God, girl. We did Dateline Secrets in the Ashes.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, Jesus, the night this aired. I'm telling you. Bing, bing, bing. I was like, what happened, fam?

[Jillian Betavale]

Don't forget we have a Facebook group and we've got discord. Those are places where you go if you want to make friends, if you want to talk about the episodes, if you want to talk about more than just the episodes, you can click the link in the show notes to both just join up. It's really fun. What are we doing next?

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my God.

[Jillian Betavale]

Oh, God.

[Patrick Hines]

The Many Lives of Benjamin Kyle.

[Jillian Betavale]

I just watched the whole thing. I didn't even know we were doing it. I just watched the whole freaking thing.

[Patrick Hines]

It's four 45 minute episodes. We're doing it in two TC.

[Jillian Betavale]

Oh, good. Okay. That makes me feel.

[Patrick Hines]

These are the people who did. They're the Natalia Grace people. This is so insane and stupid and ridiculous and terrible and we're going to have a grand old time ripping everybody to shreds.

[Jillian Betavale]

Oh, my God.

[Patrick Hines]

These people are the worst. And not just the Benjamin Kyle guy, the production crew.

[Jillian Betavale]

This was all over the talk, like everyone was talking about that.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. So we're doing it in two TCO episodes like we do.

[Jillian Betavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. Because it's perfect. Disjointed and convoluted and ridiculous and poorly made.

[Jillian Betavale]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes. So we are just gonna have a little bit of fun.

[Jillian Betavale]

Oh, that's great. All right, stay tuned for the trailer for that fam. We love you.

[Patrick Hines]

We love you. Stay safe. Fuck you, Delbert. And fuck you, Nazis. In conclusion, long live John Michael. I'm your biggest fan.

[Jillian Betavale]

Goodbye.

[Patrick Hines]

Bye. As Todd Draper would say. Goodbye.

[Jillian Betavale]

Bye.

[Patrick Hines]

Eleven years ago, I came across this insane story. It was about that had amnesia.

[Jillian Betavale]

I was found behind a dumpster.

[John Michael]

I don't know how I got there, and I don't have memories of who I am.

[Andrea Canning]

Initially, we really wanted to help Benjamin Kyle.

[Patrick Hines]

But the more that we learned about him, the more that he started to get angry. All it did was raise more questions. Who the hell was Was he for 30 years?